The Patriot Guard Riders came to my step-brother's funeral to shield us from the Westboro people. They rode their motorcycles as an escort between funeral home and cemetery. They also stood in a huge circle around both venues, each person holding the flagpole of one flag, and the outer top corner of the next person's flag, to create a protected area so we couldn't even see the Westboro folks out beyond them.
It was incredibly moving to realize that the Patriod Guard had traveled however far each of them needed to go, and given of their time to protect a soldier and his family.
The key points are:
* Don't interact with the "protesters" at all - just form a silent barrier.
* Flags, or something like the angel-wing sheets that someone above suggested, form a very effective barrier.
* Don't interact with the folks you're protecting, either. Just let them go on with their activities as much like normal as possible. (I think the Patriot Guard had one leader who coordinated with the funeral home, and they had a small number of people who formed a silent "corridor" when we entered and exited the building.)
I actually thought about it since I might get a new group to run the game with.
The third book has a literal fetch quest involving a roc egg. There's little to no benefit to the country from fetching an egg to make an omelette. What could possibly be made to make this quest seem more attractive, instead of me having to use the metagame reason of "well if you don't you won't get the EXP"?
Instead of the omelette king, eel, and manticore quill quests as written, I made all three things that the PCs needed to do to impress the centaurs and get them to move up the scale from hostile to friendly.
First I used the "kankerata run" proposed in another thread, then the centaurs challenged the PCs to bring back both a roc egg and the manticore quills as needed components for very special tribal tattoos. One of the friendlier centaurs (who the PCs had helped during the kankerata run) quietly mentioned to the PCs that if they also brought a bunch of eels from Lake Silverstep, they'd win some popularity as the eels are favorites of many of the centaurs.
Sorry Cheapy but the Ask *Cosmo* thread is one messageboard over and to the left. Please reserve this space for all the accountings of the tragedies Cosmo is rightfully responsible for. :3
Totally Cosmo's fault. He obviously moved Cheapy's post from that thread to this one.
Cosmo please shrink the US so everyone can get together more often, or ill blame you. If you can do so Yay! ... And I blame you for not doing so sooner.
In Cosmo's defense, I think he's already been trying to do this. You know, like putting a sweater in the dryer. Because he is responsible for global warming, right?
Seriously, have a talk with the player before the next session. Explain to him that if he wants to play this adventure, he needs to play along with the plot a bit more. His character is surrounded by far too many foes, and if the character continues to act like an idiot, he's going to get killed.
Adventure paths require a group that is interested in pursuing the story they lay out. There are plenty of decisions the player can make on how to approach things, but they can't outright refuse the main storyline without making things really annoying for everyone else (GM and other players). Ask him if he's acting this way because he misunderstood and thought from the adventure name that he was supposed to be able to mutiny right away, or if he really thinks that the fun thing to do here is to be so obnoxious that he makes it impossible for everyone else to play the game?
I used to use a white board, but now I use paper from 1-inch-grid easel pads (the kind that companies use during meetings). You can usually find a four-pack of easel pads at a decent price at the online versions of one or another of the big box office supply stores. Watch out that you're not looking at the version with the sticky backing across the top - it costs twice as much.
I switched back to paper because it lets me prep multiple maps in advance, and I can take more time on some maps than I would want to spend if drawing it during the game. Also, when I did the original Ravenloft adventure last year, it was amazing being able to layer the maps so everyone could see how the staircases lined up.
If you're one of the people who runs a strictly-core game, I feel confident in saying you're in the minority in regards to your desires for the content of future APs, and not among the main avenue of customers Paizo is aiming their business model at, regardless of whether you frequent the forums or not.
I don't think this is a helpful way of interpreting Riggler's comments. Or mine, for that matter.
Paizo probably doesn't have a business model that aims at only the buy-everything subset of customers. If they narrow the definition of their target market that much, they end up speaking to an increasingly narrow aucience. On the other hand, if they offer products which appeal to a wide variety of play styles, setting choices, and so forth, they widen their potential audience. Take a look at their products - or even just the way that Golarion itself is designed - and you'll see their choices to widen, not narrow, their appeal.
As James Jacobs said above, it's in Paizo's interests that various game books be useful for future products. But as Riggler and I have pointed out (Riggler by not wanting to be required to buy those books in order to run the other adventures, me because I run another edition of the game entirely but prefer to run Paizo adventure paths), it's just as important that those of us who are selective with our purchases can feel comfortable we'll have everything we need to run an AP if we buy that AP.
Will the supplemental books that come out alongside it (the Irrisen book for Reign of Winter, etc.) add additional material and ideas that we can use to flesh out the campaign? Absolutely, and that's wonderful. But if we can't run the AP at all without having one of those supplemental purchases, that's a much bigger problem.
For Riggler, it might come down to budget - the cost of the AP is the amount being committed to, and any required items above and beyond that cause problems. (By the way, Riggler, I apologize for putting words in your mouth here.) For me, my concern was the possible drift from the core game - not the core rules, but the feel and style of the game itself. I like playing D&D, and as long as the Paizo adventure paths continue to be D&D, regardless of edition, I can convert them to my preferred ruleset and play them. But if a supplemental ruleset changes things so much that I have trouble recognizing it as D&D...
Which, by the way, was my concern when I posted above (a few days ago), and my concerns in this case were laid to rest by James's response. But I still feel better making sure he and the other folks at Paizo are aware that we're part of their audience. That way, they can weigh our needs (and decide whether or not they're willing to take our needs into account) as they continue to develop new products. If folks like me don't speak up to mention what we need, Paizo doesn't get the feedback to consider us at all. And then we all lose out.
I went out of my way to ensure that one of my quietest and most consensus-building players was the obvious choice for ruler.
I also make a point of looking around the table at each player when we're in big interaction scenes. "Okay, we've heard from you, Bob. Joe, what do you want to say?" I try to ensure that the interesting ones are with large groups (so it's reasonable that many side conversations could happen simultaneously) or with people who would pay attention to all PCs regardless of titles (such as powerful fey). The latter can even apply to major NPCs; people like Varn, Drelev, Irovetti, nobles in Brevoy, ambassadors from Mivon, and the like are going to recognize that the king is part of an adventuring party, and are going to want to get a sense of the entire party, not just their nominal leader.
When we take a break from D&D, my group sometimes plays the old Marvel Superheroes game. I'd like to suggest borrowing something from that game's rules.
In Marvel Superheroes, at the end of every session you can earn Karma points, which you can spend later to get auto-successess or to improve your character, or even to power-stunt your way to new powers if they're related to your existing powers.
However, if your PC performs criminal acts or bring harm to people, you gain no Karma for the session and you might even lose Karma you'd earned previously. If you (accidentally or deliberately) kill someone, even utterly evil villains, you lose all your current karma.
In my experience, players make that mistake once - and then they lose a significant amount of karma, and from then on they remember. No evil acts. No non-heroic behavior.
My point is, you might be able to house-rule something similar into Pathfinder, rewarding them 0 XP in sessions where they choose to behave in non-heroic fashion. It's harder for one-shots, but even there you can do something; perhaps -2 penalties to all d20 rolls until they make amends for their non-heroic behavior. Reward the behavior you want to see, and make sure you do nothing to reward the behavior that makes the game un-fun for you.
For some reason the links in the OP doesn't work for me :(
Anyone knows what has happened? I believe this source would be very useful to have now when I am about to start the first book.
/Thrilled
If you go into the Kingmaker boards, those threads are all "stickied" so they'll stay at the top (albeit in an order determined by the most recent post, rather than the order of the adventures). There are also a few other useful threads stickied there, such as Kingdom Building.
Chapter 3 however is another story. Varnhold Vanishing is the only one of the chapters where neither Nyrissa nor any of her agents has any visible activity. The BBEG, Vordakai, isn't one of her minions.
In my campaign, Nyrissa charmed the fellow who intruded on Vordakai's lair, and gave him the map that he followed to find it; thus, Nyrissa actually triggered Vordakai's awakening. Nyrissa also left the Oculus for him to discover and use; she previously used it (and a large number of mirror-portals) to capture all the blood-descendents of Choral the Conquerer - that's my campaign's version of the Vanishing, and the Rogarvians will be found in mirrors used as Soul-Jars in chapter 6.
In any case, Vordakai doesn't have to know a thing about Nyrissa for her to be using him...
My Tiefling's background is that he either saved her life (from an accident and not an assassination plot) or that he was born into a noble family (minor but has been loyal to her family since it took control) and after they past away for whatever reason I have yet to determine has allowed him to keep his family's status.
Thoughts on this?
Perhaps she has reason to dislike/distrust whoever would have received your PC's title if your PC was bypassed (perhaps an uncle or cousin of your PC). By officially recognizing a tiefling as the legitimate heir, she gives a major - and very public - brush-off to whoever that person was. It has nothing to do with your PC at all. It also means that the person she disliked has particular reason to hate your PC...
Arrows and bolts automatically miss. Other normal ranged weapons have the miss chance.
WARNING: Application of Real-World Physics to a Game Rules Question:
In my opinion, the other "normal" ranged weapons refers to thrown weapons such as hand axes or thrown daggers - presumably their additional weight makes them have a miss chance rather than auto-missing.
A firearm projectile may logically fall into this latter category as well, since it travels fast enough that the wind wouldn't automatically fling it away. I suggest thinking of it as, "Does the item in question rely primarily on aerodynamics to float through the air, or on weight and throw weight to send it?" (Or more simply, if I hold this item in the air and then drop it, will air resistance slow it down or change its path to the ground.)
A paper airplane, an arrow with its fletchings, or a bird with wings, all rely on air to support them. A thrown handaxe or a bullet relies more on initial thrust speed and its weight, so just gets the miss chance.
I make my players fill out a 1- or 2-page questionaire for each campaign. I tune the questions to the specific campaign. They can fill in several lines after each question, or answer with single words. Regardless, I then try hard to bring their answers into the story.
Player Background Questionnaire for my Kingmaker campaign::
There is someone in Brevoy with whom you’ve had substantial conflict. Who is it? Why is there conflict between you? How does the conflict usually play out? The idea is to create a connection to someone back home that can be a source of friction.
Someone back home has been a substantial ally of yours; you get along very well. Who is it? Describe an occasion when the alliance came into play. The idea is to create a connection to someone back home that has been a positive influence for you. They need not belong to a PC class. Perhaps they will communicate news and rumors to you, or send new settlers or quests your way. They might even come to your assistance (or expect you to come to their assistance) in time of great need. OPTION: Briefly define up to three separate allies, each with a different relationship to you (parent/sibling/mentor/friend/colleague).
You carry a possession that has great meaning to you. What is it, and why is it so important? Preferably something other than a weapon, implement, armor, or standard gear. It is most interesting when it has a bit of story connected to it.
You have a secret that you hide from others (including the other PCs). What is this secret? e.g. A shameful failure or misdeed in your past that continues to haunt you; a bastard child; a broken betrothal; a fear or desire that affects your decisions. NOTE: This secret should affect the way you play your character, and/or reasonably be brought into play by the DM (eventually).
There is a troubling mystery for which you don’t know the answer. What is this mystery? e.g. A sibling (or your betrothed/ lover/ best friend/longtime rival/mentor) vanished while traveling abroad (or from home or their workplace); you lost something precious to you; an unusual object keeps reappearing in your possessions no matter how often you lose or destroy it; an animal or person keeps watching from a distance, though you never get close (or learn nothing useful when you do); you were once found wandering in the woods with no recollection of how you got there or what happened for a missing period of 10 days/2 weeks/2 months. NOTE: This should be a mystery your character wants to solve, that can reasonably be brought into play by the DM at some point in the campaign; the DM has creative control of this mystery’s final answers.
You have a particular patron who suggested you for the exploration of the Greenbelt. Who is it? What is their interest in this project? What is it about your relationship that makes them think you’ll be a particularly good agent for their interests? The intent is to give you a connection to someone with a political axe to grind. Possible “interests” might include: stabilize the southern border as an future ally for Rostland against the north (Issia); report to someone whose loyalty is to the north (Issia); find means to help prevent civil war between Rostland and Issia; find valuable resources that can be exploited for profit by wealthy investors from Brevoy; represent a specific noble house or other person or group’s interests; OR, your patron might be someone who is politically connected and to whom you owe a debt, and you may not know their actual agenda at this time.
Describe your ideal spouse. This campaign will span years of game time – and many if not all PCs will eventually have families of their own. Assume this, and give some thought to how you want this to develop for your PC. You may already be betrothed or have a beloved. You may already be married. More likely, you will find your true love during the campaign – but it is up to you as the player to help make this happen, both by being open to it, and by providing the DM with enough information to ensure that good candidates can be introduced. You are quite welcome to help create your NPC future spouse, within reason.
What do you like to do when you have down-time? What sorts of hobbies and interests does your PC have? The idea is to make your PC more rounded and interesting by thinking about things other than adventuring that he likes to do – and what sorts of businesses he’ll eventually be interested in promoting. Does he collect something? Make something? Play a musical instrument? Would he rather carouse in a tavern or read a book? Does he enjoy the theater? Dancing? Gambling? Fine food?
Define your family. Either create a family tree, OR list three to five family members of importance to you.
What non-Ruler posting(s) will you as a player be aiming for? For optimal player cooperation, aim for a listed role, and let the eventual “ruler” be chosen by the party for in-game reasons. Each role utilizes ONE of the two attributes listed.
It doesn't have to be dependent just on Nature rolls.
My players realized that pranks were being played, and a couple of the PCs started "playing along" with the pranks. I also kept track of who had good reactions to being pranked, and who came across as a bad sport. When it seemed appropriate, I had Perlivash and Tyg each choose a different PC who had most impressed them, and talk to them alone (during watch shifts at night) to invite them to help set up still more pranks on the bad-sport PCs.
My PCs then managed to convince Perl and Tyg to let the whole group set up one big massive prank against someone else. The PCs suggested the Thorn River Camp as good candidates, since they knew the bandits would be there in the near future but they hadn't gone to clean it out yet. Perl and Tyg jumped on the opportunity, and mentioned a beekeeper whose bees would make for a really funny prank. And ultimately, I was able to use this as a setup for Tenzekil losing his bees, caused by the PCs' actions, preliminary to running a modified "Realm of the Fellnight Queen" in my campaign at a later point.
Since you say that you haven't read the adventure path yet, I'm going to play devil's advocate here.
This adventure path is the only one, I believe, where the PCs can see who the big bad guy is almost from the very beginning. They meet the queen early on, and begin to get a "something's not right" vibe during the first adventure. However, there's literally nothing they can do about it. She's the queen, she's got competent people ready to protect her, and (perhaps most important) they have no proof of wrongdoing in the early stages. By the time they have gained a few levels and are beginning to see more worrisome signs, they also get a very clear indication that the queen is still way out of their league.
I strongly recommend that as you read the adventures, you try to keep an open mind about whether to switch BBEGs. If after reading them, you still feel this is needed to maintain the suspense, absolutely go ahead and make the change. But I wanted to say all this because I know my players sometimes feel like the adventure path BBEGs come out of nowhere, way too late in the story, and they treasured the opportunity to carry the grudge in this one from chapter 1 straight on through to the end of the story...
1) The items are owned by the craftsman (until they sell), not the kingdom. If the PCs want to buy them for their normal market value, they can.
2) You roll to see if the magic item sells to open the slot so it can generate a new item the next month.
3) Each district can only roll to sell one item per month.
4) When the item sells, it is used to represent how the economy is doing - so it generates the correct amount of BP based on the slot type (Minor, Medium, Major). Of course, if the item is worth less than 4000gp, it simply empties the slot, it doesn't generate BPs.
You could ask your players to tell you their plan for each exploration trip ("We intend to go to hex 4E, then 4D, 4C, 4B, 4A, then come back home") and you roll for encounters for the whole trip, and fast-forward to interesting locations. "Okay, you spend X time getting there and find nothing of interest in 4E or 4D, other than a spectacular waterfall and fishing hole in 4D. That takes us to the 25th of Erastil. Sometime in the late-morning while exploring 4C, you notice..."
For my campaign, I figure there might be a Rogarvian heir or two still out there, although I haven't defined any yet. They need to have been "not at home" when the Vanishing occurred, and not somewhere that she would have discovered their presence to include them - which should be fairly simple to justify for your disowned PC.
Hassy - Regarding your last spoiler tag:
Spoiler:
Vordakai's been gone for thousands of years, so as written, I don't believe there's a connection.
As far as the deja vu and timing issues...My PCs won't discover the Vanishing was related until much later, possibly not until they enter Nyrissa's home. So for my group, it will be more a foreshadowing/connecting of events rather than a "haven't we done this before?" situation.
If you like the idea, but the timing throws you off, just consider if there's any way for Nyrissa to steal the Oculus when the time is right. If not, she can still be responsible, just not by using the Oculus - taking everyone of a single bloodline is different from taking everyone in an area, after all, and I had to explain that away to make my version work.
As for background information, a few years ago, I started giving my players one- or two-page questionaires suited to the campaign. Here's the list of questions I used for Kingmaker. They're very wordy, because I've found I get better results if I explain my reason for asking each question. With 10-point Calibri font and limited response space, it fit onto two pages.
Spoiler:
There is someone in Brevoy with whom you’ve had substantial conflict. Who is it? Why is there conflict between you? How does the conflict usually play out? The idea is to create a connection to someone back home that can be a source of friction.
Someone back home has been a substantial ally of yours; you get along very well. Who is it? Describe an occasion when the alliance came into play. The idea is to create a connection to someone back home that has been a positive influence for you. They need not belong to a PC class. Perhaps they will communicate news and rumors to you, or send new settlers or quests your way. They might even come to your assistance (or expect you to come to their assistance) in time of great need. OPTION: Briefly define up to three separate allies, each with a different relationship to you (parent/sibling/mentor/friend/colleague).
You carry a possession that has great meaning to you. What is it, and why is it so important? Preferably something other than a weapon, implement, armor, or standard gear. It is most interesting when it has a bit of story connected to it.
You have a secret that you hide from others (including the other PCs). What is this secret? e.g. A shameful failure or misdeed in your past that continues to haunt you; a bastard child; a broken betrothal; a fear or desire that affects your decisions. NOTE: This secret should affect the way you play your character, and/or reasonably be brought into play by the DM (eventually).
There is a troubling mystery for which you don’t know the answer. What is this mystery? e.g. A sibling (or your betrothed/ lover/ best friend/longtime rival/mentor) vanished while traveling abroad (or from home or their workplace); you lost something precious to you; an unusual object keeps reappearing in your possessions no matter how often you lose or destroy it; an animal or person keeps watching from a distance, though you never get close (or learn nothing useful when you do); you were once found wandering in the woods with no recollection of how you got there or what happened for a missing period of 10 days/2 weeks/2 months. NOTE: This should be a mystery your character wants to solve, that can reasonably be brought into play by the DM at some point in the campaign; the DM has creative control of this mystery’s final answers.
You have a particular patron who suggested you for the exploration of the Greenbelt. Who is it? What is their interest in this project? What is it about your relationship that makes them think you’ll be a particularly good agent for their interests? The intent is to give you a connection to someone with a political axe to grind. Possible “interests” might include: stabilize the southern border as an future ally for Rostland against the north (Issia); report to someone whose loyalty is to the north (Issia); find means to help prevent civil war between Rostland and Issia; find valuable resources that can be exploited for profit by wealthy investors from Brevoy; represent a specific noble house or other person or group’s interests; OR, your patron might be someone who is politically connected and to whom you owe a debt, and you may not know their actual agenda at this time.
Describe your ideal spouse. This campaign will span years of game time – and many if not all PCs will eventually have families of their own. Assume this, and give some thought to how you want this to develop for your PC. You may already be betrothed or have a beloved. You may already be married. More likely, you will find your true love during the campaign – but it is up to you as the player to help make this happen, both by being open to it, and by providing the DM with enough information to ensure that good candidates can be introduced. You are quite welcome to help create your NPC future spouse, within reason.
What do you like to do when you have down-time? What sorts of hobbies and interests does your PC have? The idea is to make your PC more rounded and interesting by thinking about things other than adventuring that he likes to do – and what sorts of businesses he’ll eventually be interested in promoting. Does he collect something? Make something? Play a musical instrument? Would he rather carouse in a tavern or read a book? Does he enjoy the theater? Dancing? Gambling? Fine food?
Define your family. You have some options here. Choose ONE, and provide the answer on the back of this page:
• Create your immediate family tree. Provide name and gender; for at least five still-living relatives (siblings, parents, grandparents, aunts/uncles, cousins), give a sentence-fragment comment about them or their relationship with you.
• Briefly define three to five members of your family who are (or may become) important to you. These may be immediate family or distant kin; provide appropriate names. You needn’t have a strong relationship with them (e.g. the titled cousin you’ve never met), but then you leave them to the DM to develop…
• If your background doesn’t allow for this many relatives, define caregivers and others who are your “effective family” i.e. people you grew up around, for better or for worse. This can be in combination with the above options (e.g. family tree shows two living relatives, and you list three people who were like family: your kindly but clueless nanny, your cruel tutor, and the saxophone player who lived under a nearby bridge and gave you your love of music.)
What non-Ruler posting(s) will you as a player be aiming for? For optimal player cooperation, aim for a listed role, and let the eventual “ruler” be chosen by the party for in-game reasons. Each role utilizes ONE of the two attributes listed.
• Councilor: WIS or CHA
• General: STR or CHA
• Grand Diplomat: INT or CHA
• High Priest: WIS or CHA
• Magister: INT or CHA
• Marshal: DEX or WIS
• Royal Assassin: STR or DEX
• Spymaster: DEX or INT
• Treasurer: INT or WIS
• Warden: STR or CON
I assume you're already incorporating the noble house members listed in the Brevoy article (in the same issue as Stolen Land).
My Kingmaker campaign is nearing the end of Chapter 1 right now, but I'm planning a couple of things that might interest you.
First, I had each player fill out a Background Questionaire which included questions such as "You have a particular patron who suggested you for the exploration of the Greenbelt. Who is it? What is their interest in this project? What is it about your relationship that makes them think you’ll be a particularly good agent for their interests?" (Other questions asked for info on their immediate family, an ally and an enemy "back home in Brevoy," as well as a "troubling mystery for which they don't know the answer.")
I'm using the information from their backgrounds to supplement a guest list for a large gala party in Restov at which they will receive their charter to found their kingdom. For most of the NPCs attending, I'm using random tables from a variety of sources to create secret motivations and plot hooks. The PCs will probably only interact with a limited number of these hooks at the gala - but they might choose to recruit some of these NPCs as members of their ruling council, and they'll certainly have future opportunities to interact with the NPCs. (Some of the NPC plots are things that will just wait until the PCs stumble across them before I develop them further - a few, however, might continue to develop in the background.)
The second thing I'm planning involves the Vanishing. I'm putting this in spoiler, because it necessarily involves many specific plot elements from throughout the adventure path:
Spoiler:
In my version of the story, Choral visited Nyrissa (similar to how Irovetti did) prior to conquering Brevoy, and gained something from her which aided his ability to form his army (or charm his dragons) and thus create Brevoy in the first place. Nyrissa retained something from him, perhaps some blood or hair.
At the time of the Vanishing, Nyrissa used the Oculus of Abaddon (and some magic mirrors which opened a magical portal) to snatch all the descendents of House Rogarvia, using Choral's blood/hair/whatever as a link to only call Choral's descendents through the mirror portals, while everyone else slept an enchanted sleep). The Rogarvians are in soul jars similar to those which will be holding the kidnapped folk of Varnhold in chapter 3; Nyrissa is using them as part of a web of components to power her ritual for the end of chapter 6.
Sometime after the end of chapter 1, Nyrissa uses another mirror (which then shatters in place) to deliver the Oculus to Vordakai's Tomb, where Vordakai can discover and use it once he awakens. I'm also planning on having a lock of Nyrissa-hair on Willas Gunderson (sp?) along with enough of a rough map to imply that Nyrissa somehow arranged for him to discover the Tomb and awaken Vordakai.
Related details - Nyrissa used a similar magic-mirror portal to kill the unicorn that is found in Stolen Land - my PCs found mirror shards at the site from the shattered mirror she had to leave behind. Nyrissa can "step through" a mirror portal, but she's really only projecting a reflection of herself, so if she leaves line-of-sight, the mirror shatters and she is jolted back into her body. This way, she can do things like kill the unicorn, but still be trapped. The Rogarvians stepped through the mirror portals when called by the oculus, so those mirrors may still be intact in the various manor houses etc. that they left, or there may be a shattered mirror in each such structure - I haven't decided yet.
(Presumably, there's a magic-mirror-maker somewhere in Brevoy to create and deliver these things - or maybe Nyrissa makes them herself and has a minion who can deliver them, I haven't decided that part yet.)
I should note that the other consequence of this storyline is, assuming the PCs defeat Nyrissa at the end of chapter 6, they'll find a whole bunch of soul jars with Rogarvians inside - including Choral! (After all, where else would he have gone when he departed Brevoy?) They'll have to decide whether or not to release the Rogarvians; doing so could plunge Brevoy into war (again?), but failing to do so would mean leaving all of them (including children) trapped forever. I expect that our campaign won't end when they defeat Nyrissa, it will only end after they deal with the aftermath of this decision, and determine the fates of their own nation and Brevoy/Issia/Rostland once and for all.
I am an enthusiastic DM of 4th edition. (I still have my bookshelves full of 1E/2E/3.0/3.5 stuff, and I continue to collect and run Paizo adventure paths using 4E.)
And as much as I LOVE 4E, I can tell you that I've been excited by many of the comments that have come out in the 4E Design and Development articles this past year, so I'm actually looking forward to seeing what happens with this new edition/iteration/whatever. WotC has been successfully recapturing the 1E feel in a lot of ways with the weekly Encounters program, and with many of their more recent releases.
Not everyone has to take change as a personal affront.
Steve Geddes wrote:
I'm more worried about losing my character builder. :(
I strongly agree with this. On the other hand, since using it requires a paid subscription, hopefully they won't see any need to remove the 4E character builder (or the "4E settings" if this is an "iteration") just because they've moved on to a new iteration/edition/whatever. At the very least, I'd like them to continue to support both for a year or two within DDI, to give us time to wrap up campaigns already in progress.
Over the years, I've been in several different groups where a single player, using the "I'm just playing my character" defense, has caused an incredible amount of disruption to the group. I'm talking about disruption that grows to the point that members of the group gripe for hours/days about the disruptions that occurred during the last session, and people get so frustrated with the disruptions that they are no longer having fun - or are even dreading each week's game session.
As DM, I now make it clear to members of my group that those words are not a defense - in fact, that they are the first and clearest sign of someone who is playing the game selfishly. My group understands that it is everyone's responsibility to ensure everyone in the group has a chance to have fun. Everyone deserves their moment in the spotlight, and no one is entitled to make someone else miserable.
The thing is, at least in my experience, people who tend to use the "just playing my character" defense are usually not able to change their play style. They aren't having fun if they can't play this way. They may be overly competitive, they may be taking out their frustrations from outside the game, or this may simply be their way of getting the spotlight - correct them and they get defensive, insist they change to a more cooperative character and they find other ways to act out.
My advice - Your group needs to firmly express to this player that his disruptive behavior isn't appropriate. You can give him a chance to change - but if it continues to be an issue (or seems to get better when you nag him about it, but continually reverts back under stress or when it doesn't get mentioned for a couple of weeks), then you also need to make it clear that you are willing to remove a disruptive player for the sake of the rest of the group. Talk about sharing the spotlight, working as a group, etc. Make sure he understands that he shares the responsibility, as does everyone else in the group, of making the game fun for everyone - and that right now he's failing in this responsibility.
And if your group isn't willing/able to remove a disruptive player for some reason, you need to examine why that is. Because if you don't, then you're basically letting yourselves be held hostage to his bad behavior.
This is a very "sandbox"-style campaign. A whole lot of pieces are there, but it's up the the GM and the players to give them life. There is no (or rather, very little) over-arching story, because the story is supposed to be created by the GM and players.
For a game like this to work, the GM needs to do the stuff that William Bryan listed in his excellent post. But you as the players also need to take some responsibility. You should be developing your characters' stories, and coming up with goals for them. Someone is presumably the Ruler (king, Baron, whatever) - has he/she gotten married and produced an heir? Are the rest of you thinking of political goals you could achieve?
If this sort of campaign sounds fun to you, then you may be able, as a group,to re-tool the campaign and make it work. But if it doesn't, then you probably are just playing the wrong adventure. I'd also like to note that, if your GM thinks this path is "boring," then he's almost certainly not looking at this path in the right way, trying to develop stories around what the PCs do, etc.; and that makes it almost impossible that this path can be salvaged. A sandbox campaign takes a lot more effort on the part of the GM, and his/her imagination really has to be engaged by the pieces that are provided.
So I'd tend to recommend that your group should switch to a more story-based adventure path (pretty much any of them other than Kingmaker and Serpent's Skull). Carrion Crown looks like a lot of fun, with its horror theme. If that doesn't appeal, there are other threads on these boards where folks compare the different adventure paths, although you might recommend that your GM check them out rather than you looking through them, as they're by necessity riddled with spoilers for the adventure paths they're comparing.
So how many other people who *aren't* getting the PDFs would be interested in a collection of all of the interactive maps after we've published all six volumes of an AP?
I would definitely buy such a product.
And if you go back and do some of the recent APs (esp. Kingmaker), I'd be thrilled.
I created a modified ruleset for kingdom building. I've eliminated the magic item economy (i.e. no buildings produce magic items, and there is no longer a process of generating and selling magic items to generate BPs for the kingdom).
Note that I haven't started my campaign quite yet, so these revised rules are untested.
Special Rules:
Spoiler:
* No more than one building of a type can be placed in the same district, unless that building notes "mult/district".
* A district should be largely filled before starting a new district. (I haven't assigned a percentage rule here yet. If there is a good reason something should be a separate district, I'll probably allow it. If there is a wide band of empty space in an existing district next to the new district border, I probably will NOT.)
* Economy grows faster than in the original rules (so do Stability and Loyalty, but not as fast as Economy). Rolls vs. the Control DC may become meaningless - but my understanding is that this was often the case for groups using the original rules.
* I added a new kingdom statistic, “Prestige.” This is offered only by a few building types, and the players will NEVER roll their Prestige vs. the kingdom control DC. Instead, the accumulation of kingdom prestige is intended to be a measure of how impressive the PC’s cities/kingdom might appear to their neighbors. (I expect to have certain events grant Prestige bonuses, and to create rules on the fly for how this is used in play.)
Interpreting the Statistics:
Spoiler:
* The buildings are listed within their discount groups. Buildings are indented below the building that offers them a discount. For example, in the Arena Group, an Arena in the city halves the cost of a Garrison or Theater; in turn, a Theater in the city halves the cost of a Brothel, Park, or Tavern.
* Most buildings are discounted by one other building. Some are not discounted (there are no discounts for Residential Group buildings nor for the topmost building in each group). Note that within the Parliament Group, the Noble Villa cost is halved by having either a Castle or Palace - obviously, these discounts don't stack.
The format is:
Building Name: cost in BP (blocks if <> 1); +# gp Base Value; Economy; Stability; Loyalty; Prestige; Unrest; Defense Modifier; limitations and army implications and special rules; prerequisites (e.g. 1H)
1H = must be adjacent to 1 House
2H = must be adjacent to 2 Houses
0H = can’t be adjacent to a House
Commentary:
Spoiler:
* I've substantially modified stats for many buildings.
* I have a formula for pricing new buildings, in case the players come up with ideas for additional building types.
* There are buildings with identical stats - this is intentional.
* All three kingdom stats are potentially easier to increase, but especially Economy. My assumption based on feedback from people here on the Paizo boards is that most kingdoms only fail their rolls on a 1 after a certain point, anyway.
* The Slave Pen (under Residential Group) is not really intended to see play in the Kingmaker campaign - a kingdom that allows slavery is far too likely to be wiped out by its neighbors in the River Kingdoms.
Residential Group (no discounts)
Spoiler:
House: 3 BP; Unrest -1; mult/district
Tenement: 1 BP; Unrest +2; mult/district; can replace w/House for 2 BP
Workhouse: 4 BP; Sta +1; Unrest +2; mult/district
Slave Pen: 20 BP (1x2); Econ +3; Unrest +4; 0H; mult/district; All buildings cost 20% less round down (stacks)
Arena: 40 BP (2x2); Econ +4; Sta +4; Prestige +4; max 1/city; Grants any untested reserve army in city for full month a free Tactic; Stacks w/War College; halves cons. for Festival edicts
==> Garrison: 28 BP (1x2); Loy +2; Sta +4; Unrest -2; DefMod +2; Recruit ANY size army; Maintain Huge army
==> City Wall: 10 BP (0 blocks); Unrest -2; DefMod +4
==> Granary: 10 BP; Loy +1; Sta +1; cumul. +1 to Stability vs. food shortage/farm loss
==> Jail: 14 BP; Loy +2; Sta +2; Unrest -2; adj. Precinct
==> Theater: 24 BP (1x2); Econ +4; Sta +4; Unrest +1
==> Brothel: 6 BP; Econ +1; Loy +2; Unrest +1; 1H
==> Park: 4 BP; Loy +1; Unrest -1
==> Tavern: 10 BP; +500gp; Econ +1; Loy +1; 1H
Cathedral Group
Spoiler:
Cathedral: 58 BP (2x2); Econ +6; Loy +6; Prestige +5; Unrest -4; max 1/city; halves cons. for Promotion edicts
==> Temple: 32 BP (1x2); Econ +2; Loy +2; Sta +2; Prestige +2; Unrest -2
==> Graveyard: 4 BP; Loy +1
==> Monastery: 20 BP (1x2); Econ +2; Loy +2; Prestige +2; adj. Shrine or Temple; Recruit Medium divine army
==> Chapter House: 6 BP; Loy +1; Sta +1
==> Hospice: 18 BP; Econ +1; Loy +2; Sta +2; Unrest -1; Recruit and Maintain a Small divine army
==> Monument: 10 BP; Loy +3; Prestige +1; Unrest -1
==> Shrine: 8 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1; Unrest -1
Exchange Group
Spoiler:
Exchange: 60 BP (1x2); +2500gp; Econ +8; Sta +2; Prestige +5; adj. 2 warehouse; max 1/city
==> Foundry: 30 BP (1x2); +1500gp; Econ +4; Sta +2; Prestige +3; prereq iron resource in kingdom; adj. water border or Water Tower
==> Armory: 8 BP; Unrest -2; DefMod +2; adj. Barracks, Castle, Garrison, or Keep; One army -1 BP maint. cost
==> Smith: 6 BP; Econ +1; Sta +1; 1H
==> Water Tower: 8 BP; Loy +2; Unrest -1
==> Bathhouse: 4 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1; Unrest +1; 1H
==> Glassworks: 32 BP (1x2); +1000gp; Econ +6; Prestige +3; adj. water border or Water Tower
==> Greenhouses: 14 BP (1x2); Econ +1; Loy +1; Sta +1; adj. Greenhouse, Water Tower, or water border; mult/district; cumul. +2 to Stability vs. food shortage/farm loss
==> Mill: 12* BP; +500gp; Econ +2; Sta +1; 1H *if not in river hex, req. +1 block and +4 BP for Mill Pond
==> Baker: 6 BP; Econ +1; Sta +1; 1H
==> Stockyard: 20 BP (1x2); +500gp; Econ +3; Sta +2; Unrest +1; 0H
==> Butcher: 6 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1; 1H
==> Kitchen: 8 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1; Unrest -1; 1H
==> Restaurant: 6 BP; +200gp; Econ +1; 1H
==> Tannery: 6 BP; Econ +1; Sta +1; 0H
==> Weaver: 6 BP; Econ +1; Sta +1; 1H
Sawmill Group
Spoiler:
Sawmill: 32 BP (1x2); +1000gp; Econ +2; Prestige +1; 0H; adj. water border; All buildings in city -1 BP cost
==> Carpenter: 6 BP; Econ +1; Sta +1; 1H
Parliament Group
Spoiler:
Parliament: 70 BP (2x2); Econ +3; Loy +6; Sta +6; Prestige +8; max 1/kingdom
==> Castle: 60 BP (2x2); Econ +2; Loy +2; Sta +2; Prestige +5; Unrest -4; DefMod +8; max 1/city; Maintain Large army
==> Keep: 26 BP; Loy +2; Sta +2; Prestige +1; Unrest -2; DefMod +4; Maintain Medium army
==> Town Hall: 16 BP (1x2); Econ +1; Loy +1; Sta +1; Unrest -2
==> Barracks: 6 BP; Unrest -1; DefMod +2; Recruit and Maintain Medium army
==> Dump: 4 BP; Loy +1; Sta +1; 0H
==> Ministry: 14 BP (1x2); Sta +3; mult/district; circumstance bonus for events related to its jurisdiction
==> Watchtower: 12 BP; Sta +2; Unrest -1; DefMod +2; Maintain Small army
==> Embassy: 20 BP (1x2); Econ +2; Loy +2; Sta +2; Prestige +1; adj. to Town Hall, Castle, Parliament, or Embassy; must be in Capital City; max one/friendly foreign power; mult/district
==> Mint: 100 BP (1x2); +5000gp; Econ +10; Loy +10; Sta +10; Prestige +10; Unrest +5; adj. Castle or Garrison or both Precinct and Watchtower; max 1/kingdom
==> Palace: 48 BP (2x2); Econ +2; Loy +4; Sta +4; Prestige +5
==> Menagerie: 30 BP; Econ +2; Loy +2; Sta +2; Prestige +5; Unrest -1; adj. Mansion or Palace
==> Castle OR Palace
==> Noble Villa: 24 BP (1x2); +500gp; Econ +2; Loy +1; Sta +1; Prestige +2; mult/district
==> Exotic Craftsman: 10 BP; Econ +2; Sta +1; 1H
==> Luxury Store: 28 BP; +2000gp; Econ +6; Prestige +1; 1H
==> Mansion: 8 BP; Econ +1; Sta +1; mult/district
University Group
Spoiler:
University: 90 BP (2x2); +2000gp; Econ +16; Loy +4; Prestige +8; max 1/city
==> Academy: 52 BP (1x2); Econ +8; Loy +2; Prestige +5
==> Courthouse: 20 BP (1x2); Loy +2; Sta +3; Unrest -1
==> Precinct: 8 BP; Sta +2; Unrest -1; 1H
==> Prison: 30 BP (1x2); Loy +3; Sta +6; Unrest -2
==> Town Square: 8 BP (1x2); Loy +2; Unrest -1; adj. Town Hall; may have 2 adj. in same district (2x2)
==> Mage Guild: 46 BP (1x2); +1000gp; Econ +8; Loy +2; Prestige +4; max 1/city; Recruit Medium arcane army
==> Alchemist: 12 BP; +1000gp; Econ +2; 1H
==> Caster's Tower: 30 BP; Econ +8; Loy +1; Prestige +1
==> Scriptorium: 10 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1; Sta +1; 1H
==> Library: 6 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1
==> School: 8 BP; Loy +2; Unrest -2; 1H
==> Magic Shop: 68 BP; +2000gp; Econ +20; Prestige +2; 2H
==> Museum: 26 BP (1x2); +1000gp; Econ +4; Loy +4; adj. Academy, University or Museum; mult/district
==> War College: 60 BP (2x2); Econ +1; Loy +5; Sta +5; Prestige +8; prereq 100+ hexes; max 1/kingdom; All armies at recruitment gain one tactic; Stacks with Arena
Waterfront Group
Spoiler:
Waterfront: 90 BP (2x2); +4000gp; Econ +24; Prestige +8; adj. water border; max 1/city; ½ Loyalty cost for Tax edicts
==> Guildhall: 34 BP (1x2); +1000gp; Econ +6; Loy +2; Prestige +1; 1H
==> Piers: 16 BP; +500gp; Econ +3; Sta +1; adj. water border; mult/district
==> Warehouse: 8 BP (1x2); +100gp; Econ +2; mult/district
==> Stable: 10 BP; +500gp; Econ +1; Loy +1; 1H
==> Tradesman: 10 BP; +500gp; Econ +1; Sta +1; 1H
==> Market: 48 BP (1x2); +2000gp; Econ +10; Sta +2; Prestige +3; 2H
==> Black Market: 50 BP; +2000gp; Econ +12; Sta +1; Prestige +2; Unrest +1; 2H; mult/city may spur Gang War
==> Gambling Parlor: 4 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1; Unrest +1; 1H
==> Clothier: 6 BP; +200gp; Econ +1; 1H
==> Inn: 14 BP; +500gp; Econ +2; Loy +1; 1H
==> Shop: 8 BP; +250gp; Econ +2; 1H
==> Shipyard: 64 BP (2x2); +3000gp; Econ +6; Loy +2; Sta +4; Prestige +5; adj. water border; max 1/city; Can build ships for moving armies, but only on connected waterways.
I'm going to have to think about a lot of what's been said. I still like the idea of Nualia being redeemable, if they're really willing to put that much effort in - but I want to make sure that if they do go to the effort and actually succeed, that it feels like it wasn't a "gimme." And some of the complications/alternate views are going to be very useful in making it feel difficult - or even in making them question for themselves whether she really deserves this level of effort on their part.
carborundum wrote:
Maybe they have to save the soul of her lost baby?
This made me stop and say, "Wow!" I'm really going to have to think about this one.
Okay, I'm going away to think about this some more. Thanks again for all the cool insights, and I'll keep checking back!
To me, it's not so much which of these "dark" subject matters are included, as why/how they're included.
For example, rape. If rape is an assumed part of the setting, and is part of an NPC's background, okay. If rape is depicted on-screen, not-okay. If rape is something that could conceivably become an obvious element for a PC, not-okay. (Not in a published product, that is - if the DM and player are okay with adding that on their own, that's a different thing.)
If the dark elements of the story or setting are there in order to create an interesting atmosphere in which the PCs get to be heroes, okay. But it crosses the line if it gets to the point where:
1) The PCs can't be "heroes" because no matter what they do, bad things always result. (The earlier Darkmoon Vale stuff ventured way too far in this direction, in my opinion, so I stopped reading Darkmoon-Vale-associated products.)
2) The "dark" elements are presented in a smarmy or self-indulgent fashion, rather than as a backdrop. In most Pathfinder products, the presentation is very matter-of-fact. In a few places (e.g. Hook Mountain Massacre, but moreso the editorial introduction to that particular issue of Pathfinder) there's more of a gleeful little-boy enthusiasm for the grotesque. I believe it's that attitude, more than the dark elements themselves, that triggered the strong negative reaction some people have had.
I would expect that the test isn't the same for every candidate. It tests you against your own strengths, your own weaknesses, your ambitions and desires, your fears and regrets. The challenges may well be things that only the most powerful individuals could hope to handle - but some portions of the test won't be defeated by class abilities or rolls of the dice, they'll be decided by your strength of character or your determination, your ability to go on when you've already gone past anything that any mortal should be able to endure. The tests themselves will elevate you - or focus on a weakness and destroy you utterly.
This is something I've considered doing as well, particularly since the Magic Item Compendium came out. If Hagen or anyone else who has also been working on this would be willing to post some of their work (or e-mail copies of it), I for one would find that incredibly useful.
Personally, I've re-priced the Ring of Wizardry, because we determined that it is way too costly as written for the benefit received. In addition, it currently gives more benefit to sorcerers (because they have more spells per day) than it does to the wizards for whom it is named. Here's my version:
Wizardry: This special ring comes in assorted stages according to spell level (ring of wizardry I, ring of wizardry II, ring of wizardry III, ring of wizardry IV, etc.), all of them useful only to arcane spellcasters. The wearer’s arcane spells per day are doubled, up to a maximum of 4 extra spells per day, for one specific spell level. A ring of wizardry I increases the number of 1st-level spells, a ring of wizardry II increases the number of 2nd-level spells, and so forth. Bonus spells from high ability scores or school specialization are not doubled. For example, a Ring of Wizardry IX would grant a 17th level wizard only 1 extra spell per day, because he gains only one base spell slot of that level from his class; by the time he reaches 20th level, it will give him 4 bonus spells of 9th level per day.
Multiple levels of a ring of wizardry can be combined into a single ring, occupying the one ring slot, with no increase in the cost of each level. There is no price break for dividing the different levels of ring of wizardry among different rings in separate item slots. For example, it would cost the same to purchase a Ring of Wizardry III-V as it would to buy a Ring of Wizardry III, a Ring of Wizardry IV, and a Ring of Wizardry V.
Rings of Wizardry of the same spell level do not stack. The same wearer cannot gain a benefit from wearing multiple rings of wizardry of the same spell level.
Faint (wizardry I ), Moderate (wizardry II) or strong (wizardry III+, or any combination) (no school); CL 10 + spell level (e.g. I = 11th, V = 15th, IX = 19th); Forge Ring, limited wish; Price 4,000 gp (I), 16,000 gp (II), 36,000 gp (III), 64,000 gp (IV), 100,000 gp (V), 144,000 gp (VI), 196,000 gp (VII), 256,000 gp (VIII), 324,000 gp (IX).
Designer Notes: These new costs bring the benefits in line with the Pearls of Power (1,000gp times spell level squared, times 4 because of the cap of 4 bonus spells). The cap of 4 also means that a Sorcerer no longer gains far greater benefit from the ring than a Wizard. The cost not increasing for putting multiple levels into the same ring is based on similar decisions for the "big six" items as described in the Magic Item Compendium; also, since the costs are based on Pearl of Power costs, which are slotless, it seemed appropriate.
