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Krun Thuul

Ciaran Barnes's page

3,234 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Libertad wrote:

Combat Expertise
Deadly Aim
Exotic Weapon Proficiency [all]
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Dirty Trick
Improved Disarm
Improved Drag
Improved Feint
Improved Overrun
Improved Reposition
Improved Steal
Improved Sunder
Improved Trip
Improved Unarmed Strike
Martial Weapon Proficiency [all]
Point Blank Shot
Power Attack
Precise Shot
Rapid Reload
Shot on the Run
Simple Weapon Proficiency [all]
Spring Attack
Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse

I disagree with most of these. Anyone can perform combat maneuvers, but the feats are obvious improvements. Exotic weapons are -supposed- to be superior to martial weapons in some way. Feats like Dodge and Mobility grant a bonus that can be exploited. Spring Attack is a unique ability. The archery feats represent special talents that not everyone can do. Archery does not need a boost. Everyone can fight with two weapons, but not everyone can do it as well without spending a feat on it. Simple weapon proficiency grant proficiency with a large number of weapons. Anyone can use an unarmed attack, but choosing a feat makes them deadly. Weapons Finesse is a feat tax in the sense of realism, but in the sense of game mechanics, being able to dump strength is a mechanical boon in many ways.

There are a few I agree with, such as Combat Expertise (in the sense that it does not relate to the feat it is a prereq for) and Martial Weapon Proficiency (in the sense that the feat is not worth one weapon). Feats like Deadly Aim and Power Attack I am undecided about.

Forcing a re-roll within range of an imbued item is definitely going into the hedge talents. Its too cool. Improving your odds by imbuing various pieces of equipment also taxes the number of uses. I am a big fan of abilities the player that recognizes reward tactical opportunity.

As an aside, I included a minimum of 1 spell per spell level related to undead. Does anyone have an idea for an undead-themed hedge talent?

Sounds fun. A few of the ability names need work. ;)

I can live with separating the uses/pool from the abilities that it fuels. I Think itsca good idea due to the amount of focus in this thread that has been given to one specific class feature, imams less focus on any other class features that use the points. This was an error on my part, due to the order things were created in. I should have gone back at some point and changed it.

Does anyone else think that the re-roll as a written is too good for a single use of the ability? I would like to keep everything at one use, for simicity.

I use the Pages word processing application on the iPad. It costs $10, and its not as in-depth a program as MS Word, but its easy to use. As far as making it look neat-o, well I've had a tendancy since I got my first 8088 PC in 1987 to explore as many of the capabilites of a program I can. Pages makes it easy to export documents as a PDF too.

Thank you everyone for your comments. I appreciate them all.

Te'Shen definietly has me whooped in the number crunching department, and unless someone can make a stonger case, I will defer to the above number crunching.

If a hedge mage decides to only cause re-rolls, the yes it will be annoying for the GM, and yes it will be cheesey. I might change it so that he cannot use it on his own turn. However, I feel the Imbue abilities are handy at any level, and they are good for any party member, so that can drain points quickly if the party is short on magic items. There are also hedge talents that are best used out of combat, so that will drain uses as well.

Rainzex, I kind of like the Imbue X/day idea. I'm still leaning towards keeping it all in one pool, but I'll think onit. I'm a little confused by #3. I think you might have forgotten to type a word or two. Are you suggesting that more of the talents should not cost points?

I have already changed the number of uses, so I'm afraid you'll have to explain why you think 1 per level is too many.

Also, do you have a suggestion for imbue?

Both. Your BAB is now +8/+3. BAB follows a formula. Each bonus after the first is strictly determined by the first.

Let them decide what is accomplished. Maybe they earned money or squandered it. Or started a family or went on a side quest. If it's not too crazy then just let the player's words determine exactly what happened. It's faster, and the players will feel good about it. Not everything needs to be a roll-off. If it is too crazy good then knock it down a bit but make sure it is still favorable for the character.

Use Magic Device should be a feat or class feature.

Oh, and rainzax, I'm pretty sure hedge mages shouldn't be shaping fauna. Better he sticks to the flora. ;)

I added hedge master as a hedge talent.

If the summons magical with a saving throw, or must invitations be sent out? :)

Thank you Te'Shen. No one has even broken down anything I wrote in such a positive way. The actual reason I choose 1 hour is that because of what I perceive the way most mechanical benefits to play out, gaining a bonus to a skill for a few minutes might as well be an hour. There is so much focus on working the mechanics to gain combat abilities, that if someone can work the system out of combat, I applaud it. GMs are more likely to use fiat out of combat anyways.

Maybe to dippy. You could move it to level 5.

The idea where take 10 is dropped, and instead having maxed ranks grants a bonus equal to 1/2 rogue level has its merits too. Did I understand that right? The downside to this is that it encourages only having maxed out skills. One of the first things I liked when I first delved into PF was that the +3 trained bonus encouraged dabbling in skills, so that characters are a bit more rounded out.

I wondered when you'd find your way through.

I could actually live with dropping the 2X skill bonus altogether, and replacing it with something new. The thought process was that skill bonuses are easier to get than ability score boosts, and that most tools already have a +2. You don't have to be high level to get an item that grants +5 to all uses of a skill. Imbuing the tools came from the theme I have where the hedge mage likes to make objects. Most tools are hard to use in the heat of combat and/or only work for specific uses of a skill. Now that I think about, there could be easy abuses, such as if your GM is liberal with Masterwork Tools. These need some final tine-tuning.

Those are three good ideas. I've only ever tried one archetype - ever - so I don't anticipate making three for a class that may never see the light of day. Maybe someday.

You've given me an idea, which is to make a capstone allowing the HM to choose one of three choices (similar to alchemist). Crafting an artifact is definitely going to be one of them.

Even demons have rules.

It you're developing an evil, make sure there are various circles of initiation. The further in a cultist gets, the more depraved/gory/messy/sick it gets. Cults have rules. You don't just eat people willy-nilly. It should be ritualized, perhaps beginning with an initiation into a mid-level circle, or on special occasions, like when a paladin willingly offers a cultist his organs.

I could change it to a minute per use, and the usefulness would suffer little, I think. But as it currently is, do you think that spending most or all of your subtle magic uses to keep some skill bonuses for the whole day would actually be an abuse? Surely there are better ways to spend them.

I kept the spell list strictly to the CRB. Should it go beyond that?

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The Leadership feat is made for this.

But in PF game mechanics, an ability score bonus is always a non-negative number. This means the lowest value it can have is zero.

One rank in Disguise should be sufficient, if it's a class skill.

I'm reading. :)

I do like the brevity though.

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Black Market Connections (Ex): Rogues can use their connections to obtain a variety of items, and as such always have just the right one on hand. She can carry unspecified equipment worth up to 100 gp per rogue level, but weighing no more than a total of 2 pounds per rogue level. This can be any kind of gear that can reasonably fit into a backpack, including potions and scrolls (but not any other sort of magic item). As a standard action, the Rogue may dig through her pockets to retrieve an item she specifies at that time, deducting its value from the allocated amount of cost and weight. The rogue can replenish her supply after 8 hours of sleep and 1d4 hours of 'shopping' by spending an equal amount of gold, up to her full allotment.

Fast Fingers (Ex): The rogue can perform any use Slight of Hand as a move action, instead of a standard action, without penalty. Furthermore, may a draw small item no larger than her palm from her person as a swift action.

Follow Clues (Ex): A rogue with this talent can follow tracks by making a Perception check in place of Survival, even if the DC exceeds 10.

Hidden Weapons (Ex): As a swift action, a rogue with this talent can draw a hidden weapon or use Sleight of Hand to conceal a weapon, even while she is being observed.

Stand Up (Ex): A rogue with this talent may stand up from prone as a swift action without provoking a attacks of opportunity.

Terrain Mastery (Ex): A rogue with this talent chooses a type of terrain from the ranger's list of favored terrains. She gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks and Knowledge (geography), Perception, Stealth, and Survival skill checks when in this terrain. She can choose this talent up to three times. Each additional time she chooses this talent she selects an additional favored terrain, and the skill bonus and initiative bonus in any one favored terrain (including the one just selected, if so desired), increases by +2.

Black Market Connections wasn't terrible the first time around. There is just going to be a certain amount of GM fiat in how it works. Some people are fine with that, others not so much.

Fast Fingers seems strange to me. The point of Slight Of Hand is to not be seen. Why is the person fascinated?

Stand Up seems pretty potent. It seems like two separate talents to me.

Terrain Mastery is still numerically stronger than the ranger ability. Read the ranger ability again.

Lose the mutagen stuff, poison stuff, and free feats. Keep bombs and the discoveries. Complete the spell list for 7-9. Done!

Its lower level than DD and, after the once the prep work is done, triggered by a swift or move action.

All in all, I think the talents look pretty good. I can comment on some of them that stick out to me.

Black Market Connections
How about a standard action to use? In a sense, the character is magically summonging an item. Also, it may be a nit-pick, but is the GP value automatically added to the pool when she levels up? If she uses GP, then levels up, is the next 100 free? The mechanic here is vague. Not a problem for everyone, but a problem for some.

Fast Fingers
Drawing small items should be a swift action or a once per round free acction.

Follow Clues
Is track a feat? I couldn't find it.

Hidden Weapons
I'm not sure I care for Quick draw being included in this one. I would find it more thematic if it became a swift action to hide a weapon or to draw a hidden weapon.

Stand Up
I think the first sentence alone is worth a talent, although I would make it a swift action, or at least a once per round free action.

Terrain Mastery
You've made this way better than the ranger's ability. When a ranger gets a +2 to a new terrain, only one other terrain also gets a +2.

Aren't most homebrew classes ignored? Its OK. If I changed the name, I wouldn't feel as happy with it.

The number of talents is really starting to swell, and I'm not sure if its for the best or the worse. I'm covering a number of fields of interest, but I know some of them are starting to stretch credibility. Any one want to weight in?

I'm just not looking at the shaman for the first time but it looks like it would work. Depending how far you want to stretch your imagination, and how far from your original vision you want to veer, there could be other spell casters you could play. I mean, a cleric with the right domains, spells, and traits is something you could call a witch doctor.

Khaladon wrote:
Ya,it's pretty hard to imagine intimidating an ooze

I want to see the build that makes this possible.

Lets keep class names out of it. In your mind, what does a witch doctor do?

The NPC might try to Bluff first, so they don't think to disrupt him. Or, he can offer to use Heal to begin long-term care. That way, he can kill the other NPC at his leisure, or wait for an opportunity to cure him and escape.

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I love my d20s. All 20 or more of them.

Kazumetsa_Raijin wrote:
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
All dodge bonuses stack. I think that is because they are the easiest to lose. Untyped bonuses also stack. The only possible issue I see with your four sources is adding a single ability score - Wisdom in this case - to AC more than once. This has been argued many times in the past.

Is there an actual rule against taking the ability score more than once, that you could cite?

I'm still trying to find it.

I don't know if it is specifically addressed in the rules. My point was that people have been arguing both sides of it for years, and that what it comes down to is do you think the source is the class feature or the ability score? In the end its going to be a matter of what your gaming group decides to go with.

As you can see by your responses, some people seek to polarize the issue very quickly. I feel that the varying levels of importance people place on RAW and RAI are a factor.

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All dodge bonuses stack. I think that is because they are the easiest to lose. Untyped bonuses also stack. The only possible issue I see with your four sources is adding a single ability score - Wisdom in this case - to AC more than once. This has been argued many times in the past.

Cunning Deception (Ex): When the rogue uses Cunning when making a Bluff check to deceive someone or a Liguistics check to create a forgery, the use of Cunning is not lost, if successful.

Cunning Trick (Ex): When the rogue uses Cunning when attempting a Dirty Trick combat maneuver, the use of Cunning is not lost, if successful.

Would spells that restore the dead to life be necromancy or conjuration? It may depend if you are simply restoring the corpse or recalling the spirit. Needless complication probably.

I played a cleric years ago who was in an advanturing party with this wizard, and between the two of them they were pretty ssadistic bastards. Without going into extraneous detail, it was pretty normal to see the spell Disintegrate thrown out multiple times in the same day. Near the end of the campaign we face this spell caster who was at least 20th level - higher than either one of us. She had collected appropriate intelligence on us and prepared Spell Turning, keying it to our favorite spells. So... when I cast Disintegrate on her, it was I who overcame my own spell resistance (yay feats) and blew my own saving throw (yay for rolling a 2), and I who was reduced to mere traces of dust.

I like where you seem to be going with this, but I'll have to see an actual write-up to give a critique. Most of the suggestions I would make you are already addressing. take some cues from the summoner class for summoning and creating undead, so keep that separate from spell casting.

I have a friend who identifies as a witch, and I've heard quite a bit about it over the last twenty years, so I I understand how the implication that witches eat children, etc. is offensive. I asked about that and he says he only eats bad children. Names in role-playing games just cannot be all inclusive and cover all real-world implications, but they should stir the imagination (for better or worse). My only real suggestion is for your daughter to play a bard, sorcerer, or wizard. I think some of the features of those classes would be re-flavored/re-imagined to fit Glenda.

Subtle Magic
So, I have dropped the number of uses to 1 per level, plus Wis mod. Fewer points, but I think I have more or less increased the power of what the the uses are spent on. Also, the power level of the re-roll is more potent, because the re-roll can happen after the result is known.

Previosuly, the hedge mage spent more or less points to determine how long the effect lasts, and the quality of the object determined the action type. This changed. The action type is now set at a standard action and the duration at 1 hour. This duration increases if the object masterwork or he crafted it himself.

Hedge Talents
To go along with fewer uses of subtle magic, the costs of these were changed. The improved versions of talents no longer cost additional points, and a few talents got a bump in power.

Harry Potter
I picked up on that. Its a good analogy. The other comparison I can draw is to the middle earth wizards when they are in their more subdued state. They talk to animals and make fireworks and study books. They also have a more fearsome state, which this class doesn't cover.

I think I understand now. I have changed references to class features to no italics, with capitals. Good catch. You should have seen the formating when I began this. It was worse!

I have noticed that in your Primal Size sidebar, you present rules for small and tiny creatures, yet you have no small sized forms. It seems like some of your forms could have more than one size. A boar or wolf could very well be small or medium. Same with the spider. Was it intentional to not have any of them begin as small?

Thats not surprising. A name has a lot to do the feel.

Cyrad, thank you for taking such a close look.

subtle magic
It is a lot of uses, or at least it is if the hedge mage only forces re-rolls all day. The uses of subtle magic are better served if they are used to enhance equipment - which costs a point per hour - and on hedge talents. Obviously, I have my personal perspective on this. Am I way off base here?

prestidigitation on steroids
That is a really cool way to do subtle magic. I like it. However, I feel like I would need to rework a lot of what I have done to fit it in.

Since these powers you wrote up are somewhere between cantrips and 1st level spells, it would add some redundancy to the spell casting. The other thing I am thinking is that some of those would make great hedge talents. In addition to the basic subtle magic re-roll - representing an ability to affect outcomes before he has a chance to even realize it - I wanted the hedge mage to have access to a bunch of cantrips, representing his mastery of the most minor of magic. Maybe I will drop in an ability that allows him to swap out cantrips during the day.

on the harry potter reference
sound like you have a pretty accurate idea of my vision here, but I must clarify that the world of HP never crossed my mind when making this!

italicized entries
I'm looking at my pathfinder core rulebook right now, and italics are used for rage powers, bardic performances, rogue talents, and others. My impression has been that italics are uses for sub-headings under a bold-faced entry, such as a class feature.

spell levels
I lowered the spell level of greater magic weapon and magic vestment, since enhancing equipment is a core ability.

I included a cure spell at each of the 6 spell levels. Good? Bad? I also made one other strange choice to include an undead related spell at each spell level. I know its odd, considering the basic flavor of the class, but I thought it could be a fun niche capability. Is this too out of place?

I think I will leave spell levels alone then. There are no spells I've come across yet that are so core to the class that I need to lower them. Well, I think I will lower magic vestment to 2ns level. What about raising a spell level? I want to steer clear of blasting spells for thematic reasons. If I raised the level of a spell like maguic missle, would that more or less make it not worth bothering with?

I'm starting on a spell list - one of my least favorite things to do. Can anyone offer advice concerning altering a spell's level? I'm looking at lowering the level of a fpue spells and wondering when it is a bad idea.

I uploaded the newest version

An unlimited blast doesn't fit with what I have in mind for the class, although there is the Surge hedge talent that ~sort of~ simulate eldritch blast. I'm assuming by 1/2 bab you mean 3/4 bab? Again, its not the direction I would like to go.

scary harpy
Now that you mention it, the adept is a great comparison, in thats its a grass roots spell caster. I never noticed it's five level casting before. I looked at it, thought it over, and even that casting increase is very small boost over 4-level casting. I have changed the casting to 6-level.

Goth Guru wrote:

it is unclear what information the cunning rogue gets before she decides to declare a re-roll: (1) just the fact that a dice was rolled, (2) what the number on the dice was, or (3) what the result will be before meddling?

in the case of 2, is the DM willing to render transparent his/her die rolls to the cunning rogue (as they pertain to her)?

The intent of the lower level version is that the rogue sees her own d20 roll and decides that it needs to be higher. The higher level version that affects someone else's roll could use clarification though.

Imbue, in combat vs out of combat
The smart choice would be to take care of it out of combat, just as buff spells that last minutes or hours are best cast out of combat. However, a spell caster is still allowed to cast them after initiative is rolled. Would it serve the class if I reduced the number of casting time options from three to two?

Sense motive seems like the right choice to me. It is used to determine what people are thinking, more or less. I consider the the sensitive ability to be a magical version of that.

The attempt I made at an instructional power were not based off a skill. The gist of it was that large groups of people, such as a community, would all gain the imbue bonus to any check made when they all worked towards the same purpose, such as building a barn, harvesting the crops, looking for a lost child, etc. However, you are right that it is an unnecessary option. It was more for flavor than anything else.

6-level casting might be in the wings. I'm going to wait a bit before making that change through.


The Imbue bonuses to saves is supposed to resistance. Will change it.

The wizard's spell list being identical to the wizard's is mostly being afraid of tackling the challenge to making a spell list, and is partially due to the class being a weak wizarrd. The casting stat is intelligence to enforce that it is spellbook class, and and wisdom is for "subtle" magic uses.

Beast guide: One of the things I began with is "magical" uses of mundane skills, and I tried to come up with a talent per class skill. Handle animal became beast empathy, ride became beast guide. Should I eliminate ride, and use handle animal for both?

Companion: I can do that.

Imbue: I assume you mean swift imbue. That came down to having a way to speed up actions. I can't see it coming up a lot - having MW items around that he crafted himeself - or having uses for imbuing that quickly. Is it a problem, or just strange?

Sensitive: again, a talent per class skill. And it would be more useful for ghosts than goats, or for hidden creatures.

Tinker: this was one of the last talents. i was struuggling with a craft-based ability. I will think about your suggestion.

Instructive/Inspirational: this is another i have been fiddling with. Either a talent where the hedge mage supervises a group of people or where he councels a single person. Do you have any ideas?

On being an NPC: well that where I'm starting from. Its meant to be a more passive class. Like I said in the first post, its an experiment. Would 6-level casting help, or would that still fall short?


Core bonuses: I began this with 3/4 BAB and later lowed to 1/2. You feel I was wrong to do so?

Subtle Magic: yes, it is powerful, though it doesn't give a player a higher chnace of rolling a higher number, or a monster of rolling a higher one - just a second chance. A hedge mage who uses the re-rolls all day long is not using it to improve equipment or to use hedge talents. They all come from the same pool. Its a bit ambiguous. Should the pool and the re-roll be separated?

On being prestidigitaion on steroids: this is very close to a suggestion i received early on, long before i posted it. Could you provide a more specific example of how I might do this?

Regarding italicized hedge talents: I beleive the method i used was the method used for the original rogue talents and rage powers. Perhaps it is outdated now.

On not listing the number of 0-level spells: that was one of my very last changes before posting this! Look at the class feature. The hedge mage starts with three and end up with like 13. It was supposed to end up at 10, so I need to fix that. I was removing stuff to possibly make room for 6-level casting, if that makes sense.

On looking publishable: well thats what I strive for. If it gets someone to look more closely (like you) then so much the better. If it gets someone to not look and assume its fine, then we have problems.

I briefly played a character many years ago who carried a crosscut saw as a backup weapon. His name was Lincoln Logg and he had skill focus lumberjack.

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