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I abuse this enchant rather frequently by getting a courageous AOMF (which is dirt cheap with no enhancement bonus) and a flawed Pale Green Prism ioun stone for all day heroism. In late levels you can have the party buffer drop a 16th level greater magic weapon on your amulet each day to get a +3 bonus.
I'm not sure if that combo is RAW-legal, since Greater Magic Weapon has to be used on a weapon, which the amulet technically isn't. Plus, one could argue that the the bonus granted by Greater Magic Weapon isn't the same as the one a weapon gets for being a +X weapon.
When it comes to the Ring of Invisibility, I think the most likely explanation for it's price is that, like most of the items imported from 3.5, the Paizo devs just didn't see any compelling reason to change the price from what it was in the previous edition.
At the end of the day, there's going to be a strong subjective element to how much any given magic item/enchantment is worth and what exact game balance should be. Really, aside from the part of the game that's covered by math, it's pretty much all opinion.
It doesn't need to - if it's made of metal, the druid can't wear it. The real problem is the definition of what armours are constructed from is often not well-specified. Kikko is explicitly made from metal, so prohibited to Druid's. Do-Maru isn't as clear.
For what it's worth, Wikipedia says that Do-Maru armor could be leather or metal.
Have to agree that there are a few armors that would benefit from having more clarity on which materials apply to them, since there are a few that either have unclear materials (like Do-Maru) or multiple materials that could be argued as applicable (studded leather, armored coat).
Materials can make a difference too if only one is metal then druids can use the other that isn't.
That's actually a good point; Kikko is made of metal, while the Do-Maru is an unspecified type of lamellar. That does have an impact for things like druid restrictions and special materials.
Precisely. Everyone knows the devs are perfect gods of perfectness, and have never needed to issue a clarification on anything ever. Let alone actually make a mistake. The mere idea that they might muddle the wording of an ability so that the original intent is lost is nothing less than heresy. What do you think they are, mere fallible mortals?
I have to agree that the cavalier being tied so heavily into mounted combat can be a problem for the class. Scenarios where mounted combat isn't an option crop up a lot, and the mounted combat rules themselves have been a bit of a mess lately. More and better options for an unmounted cavalier would help the class' popularity quite a bit.
Or Half-Orcs. Or just do any of the usual character tropes someone hits for the classic brooding dark loner type ("*Insert Monster Here* killed my family" and such). Really, people who are fond that character type are going to to try and play it no matter what race options they have.
When it comes to viability of pacifism in Pathfinder, a lot depends on the definition the player is using. As a general rule, the more extreme the pacifism, the harder it is to make it work.
To give some context, I would say a character who had a rule about never personally inflicting lethal damage against living beings qualifies as a pacifist while still being perfectly viable in combat. Nonlethal damage is a thing, and a spell caster will have plenty of combat options like buffing, debuffing, and battlefield control that will still allow him to make useful contributions. The "living beings" qualifier also means things like undead and constructs that are immune to nonlethal damage can be engaged without any qualms.
However, if the character takes pacifism to the point of being unwilling to support the party in combat because that would be enabling violence, then I have a hard time seeing how that could work. Unless the party is doing a zero-combat campaign, the player and character would have to spend long stretches of gametime not really doing anything.
I would go with the two weapon fighting route, or at least consider it. Crossbows do suck when compared to bows, but you can dual wield them and you can't dual wield bows. It's like the only thing they've got IMO that keeps them on par with bows. Course you're a feat starved class, so you may want to shy away from two weapon fighting.
Yeah, covering TWF and the ranged feats is going to be very hard for the rogue to pull off. Not to mention that the rogue has a bit of a hitting problem, so taking rapid shot, TWF, and deadly aim penalties might be a bit too much.
Indeed. What the rules say has absolutely nothing to do with what we think is balanced, especially since everyone has their own opinion on what is or isn't balanced. "I don't think this is balanced, ergo it can't be rules-legal" is a very weak argument, especially when the devs have said more than once that Pathfinder is not meant to have 100% perfect balance.
It's hard to say what the developers intended for the item until there's been some feedback from them. Courageous can be very powerful, but it's not like magic items that are powerful with the right combination of buffs, feats, and class features are unprecedented in Pathfinder. If you think Courageous takes it a bit too far, then houserule it in your games and/or ask the dev team to change it.
I think there is a fair point to be made that, if we're debating balance instead of the rules, then Courageous only applying to fear effects makes it very unimpressive as a weapon property. It pretty much turns the courageous property into something people just skip over while looking for the good stuff.
There's certainly room to say that the Dev team intended Courageous to work differently—at the very least I'd be surprised if they realized just how strong the buffed barbarian with a Furious Courageous sword could be. That said, I think Thymus is right that some people are starting with the conclusion that Courageous is overpowered, and then bending over backwards to find a way to twist the RAW to fit that. "This is unbalanced, ergo it cannot be rules-legal."
The thing is, the rules-as-written make absolutely no judgments on balance. One can argue RAI for an unbalanced ability or make a case that the RAW needs to be changed/errataed, but the rules are what they are. When it comes to debating the rules, we have to deal with the Rules As Written, not Rules As They Ought to Be. The latter is where house rules come in (and for the record, a group has every right to house-rule Courageous to be less powerful).
Outside of Core, Monk has gotten some decent archetypes to help fix a weak base in Core.
Yeah, the only real problem I see with the monk is that some of it's best archetypes tend to involve moving away from the traditional monk setup. Zen Archer and Sohei are two of the strongest monk archetypes, but an archer and an armor-wearing weapon-user are both pretty big departures from the classic image of the monk as the shirtless face-puncher.
The big issue with the "shadowy cartel of merchants stops all teleporting" is that historically cartels have a terrible track record of actually sticking to any arrangement that keeps down individual profits for the good of the whole group. Especially since those sorts of groups naturally appeal to greedy types to begin with, and greedy people are not very good at resisting the temptation to make money by breaking the rules.
I'll take good saves over a couple of points of AC any day
Agreed on that point. 95% of the time AC only protects you from HP damage. Losing HP is bad, but it doesn't really change your combat effectiveness; a Barbarian with 10 HP its just as hard and has just as many options as one at 100 HP. A failed save is a lot more likely to cause immediate problems that instantly negate your combat effectiveness (domination, paralysis, blindness, being battlefield controlled into irrelevancy, etc).
Lincoln Hills wrote:
That only works so long as all the wizards involved can afford to play the long-term profit game. Given the kinds of things high-level casters need to deal with, it's entirely possible that one could be in a situation where they're willing to sacrifice long-term profits to deal with an immediate problem. Especially if more than money is on the table as payment.
Also, the problem with the idea that all the high-level casters would try to keep a highly restrictive monopoly on teleportation magic is that all the high-level wizards aren't a hive-mind. Even if all the high-level casters came to some sort of agreement, odds are that eventually one of them will either have a personal interest that compels him to break the agreement, or one of them will get greedy and/or think he can break the rules without getting caught. There's a reason real-life cartels have always proven unsustainable in the long term.
To be fair, haste is one of D&D's most iconic spells. It's nowhere near as obscure as stuff like Simulacrum and Planar Binding wish factories. I'd like to think it's a bit obvious for the dev team to overlook.
In my experience, the closest thing I've seen the dreaded "magic mart" is people handwaving the RP side of shopping to save game time. While I do recall a few very fun experiences where the GM and players really got into the experience, I can definitely also recall a couple times where looking for gear dragged on to the point of "Are we playing Pathfinder or Shopfinder?"
I guess it's all about playstyles, in the end. Personally, I would prefer having a system where things like AC, saves, and stat boosts were rolled into the character progression instead of having assumed items/WBL as part of CR. That would be a pretty big change to the system, though.
N. Jolly wrote:
Indeed. A lot of the talk about "Players have to earn it" tends to come across as: "Whenever I GM, all of my players must stroke my ego for 5 minutes per +1 on the item they're asking for."
another boon to creating your character ahead of time is that you know exactly what your character can do. you know how much they can hit for, what spell combos you will have access to, and which class features are best before you even hit the table. that allows for combats to flow smoother, because there is less "ok i add this bonus and that bonus, was it +20 to hit? i think so, wait!! no its only a 19 because blah blah blah..." you can still do this when leveling each time, but mid game it becomes a pain and takes even LONGER to have these values preplanned, on top of character creation time.
That is very true. I recall being incredibly frustrated with one 3.5 game where one of the players ground combat to a halt every single time it was his turn, because he couldn't figure out what his archer's to-hit and damage were. No matter how much the other people at the table tried to help, the guy just couldn't figure it out.
I think another part of the reason optimized martials get more notice is that the things they do (Namely, tons of damage) are a lot more obvious. The top-tier casters usually avoid doing raw HP damage (Though exceptions exist) in favor of more indirect effects like summoning, battlefield control, and buffing/debuffing. To a lot of people, "I kept five enemies from being able to attack this round" is less impressive than "I did 50 damage with my big sword."
Have to agree on that point. It's not like the character couldn't just adopt the goat without having any kind of supernatural connection to it.
When designing the encounter, I thought to myself, "Should I come up with a consequence of falling or reaching in? ...Who would be so foolish." And immediately moved on =/ That'll teach me to assume.
First rule of GMing, never rule out a possible PC action solely on the basis of it being a monumentally bad idea.
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Can we get anything beyond a constant refrain of "tactics" and "numbers don't matter?"
Second, Chengar is correct for the most part. On his point #3 however, it is worth noting that the templates do not give the creatures a language any longer so you're still having difficulties communicating with them.
Gah, forgot that changed in the 3.5->Pathfinder changeover.
That derp aside, Angels, Devils, and Demons do make a pretty big chunk of the SM list (and are often the best options for their spell level).
As I recall, there are three factors that push Summon Monster of Summon Nature's Ally.
1) Special Abilities: The Summon Monster list has lots of outsiders with unique special abilities and spellcasting/spell-like abilities. The SNA list, by contrast, is mostly limited to animals who can't really do much other than smack things with melee attacks. The only options that have options beyond basic melee are elementals, which are on the SM anyway. Don't get me wrong, putting animals in melee with the bad guys is very useful, but it's only one option. Summon Monster can do that just fine, plus more.
2) Templates: There are a pretty good number of animals on the Summon Monster list, and they all have a major advantage over their counterparts on the SNA list; animals summoned with SM gain the Celestial or Fiendish Template. Those templates will add DR, energy resistance, SR, and a 1/day smite, which is a very nice set of bonuses.
3) Communication/intelligence: Unless you have some ability to communicate with animals, it's going to be rather difficult to give instructions to summoned animals, and even with it animal intelligence is going to be a limiting factor on what they can understand. With Summon Monster, a few points in linguistics will let you talk to most of your summons, many of which have the intelligence to understand much more complex instructions.
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Thanks for clearing that up.
Needless to say, when magic's in the mix I get ACs well above the low twenties. I was rather fond of my ridiculously tough Aegis/Soulknife/Metaforge in a campaign where we tried out DSP's psionics rules.
Most classes that have significant overlap in abilities aren't hard to justify. A fighter going into paladin or the other way around? They have a large core of similar skills.
Multi-classing into Paladin (and to a lesser extent, Druid) is actually one of the areas where I could see some issues from an RP perspective, on account of the code on conduct. I'm not inclined to be overly restrictive on that kind of thing, but if the character hasn't been acting remotely Paladin-like up to this point in the game, I'd want some explanation for this sudden change in outlook.
Thank you for that, Mark. As you said, there's no wrong way to play the game.
I am curious to see how frontliners can keep up in AC at higher levels without magic items. It's notable that of the classic "Big Six" magic items fully half of them are AC boosters, (Amulet of Natural Armor, Ring of Protection, Magic Armor). Stat-boosting items can also fill that role, if it's adding to a stat that goes to AC.
As it stands, the only way I can see to get viable AC against an Adult Black Dragon (Which is at +21 to hit) is by focusing on some combination of defensive fighting/combat expertise that would tank the character's offensive ability. If pre-errate Crane Wing was part of the mix, that would help a lot.
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Cute story, but utterly irrelevant as anything other than a cheap attempt at misdirection. Numbers do tell the truth when you're dealing with math problems, and Pathfinder combat includes a ton of math. How do you hit things? Math. How do you do damage? Math. What do buff and debuff spells do? Change the math. Even most of your tactical options are about math, like flanking in order to get better math.
By all means, explain how someone with 17 AC is not hit on anything other than natural 1 by a monster with +18 to-hit.
I plan things out, though that's partly just because I enjoy drawing up plans for characters and it's a fun way to figure out how a particular new class/archetype might work out.
That said, in an actual campaign I tend to adjust that plan a fair bit depending on circumstances. If my character starts having problems in any given area, I'll work to address said problem rather than stubbornly sticking to the plan.
Not to mention problems like AC capping out at the low twenties (barring hyper-focused builds like a fighter who uses a tower shield while fighting defensively with combat expertise) in a magic-less campaign starts to become a real problem. Considering that according the bestiary the high attack on a CR 10 monster is +18, having your AC cap out at 20 is bad.
Have to agree. His particular brand of self-confessed trolling is fairly consistent, and has been for a long time. He'll stake out a ridiculously vague position, offer meaninglessly vague defenses, then admit that he's actually trolling.
I'd have to agree with that. My own experience has been that as long as a mounted combat character is trying to do something that everyone at the table thinks is reasonable/realistic, nobody bothers checking the rules. In my experience, the same apples to most other actions in a Pathfinder game; nobody gets overly fussed about checking the rules so long as everything fits the table's definition of reasonable.
That reminds me of the time a character in one of my campaigns rolled three natural ones in a row. Considering this was a non-serious campaign where one of the rules was that random bad things happen whenever you roll a natural one ... things got interesting. Was fun having everyone ask the halfling monk why there was a tree growing out of his head for the rest of the campaign.
Personally, I don't like full BAB Rogue variants. It doesn't feel right for Rogues... They should get something else to boost their accuracy.
Have to agree on that point. I'm more inclined to give them a to-hit bonus while sneak attacking to help their accuracy problems, though that's not a perfect solution since it just further pushes rogues into the "I'm useless if I can't sneak attack" box.
That's a very reasonable house rule, but this is the forum for discussing the official RAW.
So, you have an optimized Monk at one of the best possible levels for you to play the class [around 7-13, but YMMV], and managed to out-damage a Ranger who was mutliclassed, and switch-hitting, and while you were using multiple variable effects [Boar Style]. Congratulations?
Don't forget that the Ranger was also rolling poorly.
My hope is that they've realized that mounted combat didn't need one little FAQ that addressed one specific action. It needed massive reconstructive surgery that addressed all of the ancillary items, including the Ride and Handle Animal skills, followed by a nice comprehensive blog post that went over how they envision it working at length, especially considering the direction they chose to go with this ruling. I would hope that they're taking the time to carefully work through the ramifications and review all the ways this ruling impacts a very complex subsystem so they can come back with a definitive clarification that resolves the many issues still plaguing mounted combat.
It is the most optimistic explanation for this silence. They've realized the current rules are a mess, and don't want to risk making any more statements that might just muddy the waters further. I certainly prefer that possibility to the pessimistic idea that they're hoping the problem will just go away on its own if they ignore it hard enough. Anyone who spends time on the forums knows that never happens.
I'm confused... Rolling stats ends with the exact same sort of thing, except that sometimes the good stats are lower or the dumped stats are higher. If I'm playing someone who can afford to dump some stats, my lowest ones are going into those stats probably, whether or not they're rolled or point-buy.
The same is true of pretty much any other stat-generation method in the game. No matter what method you use to get the numbers players will put good numbers in the stats they get the most use out of, and bad numbers in the stats they don't expect to use very often. Pretty much the only way a GM will ever stop dump-stats is by forcing all his players to use poorly-optimized pregenerated characters.
As for this, it's never been a part of the DM-Player relationship that the DM tells the player exactly how is character should be. He lets the player know what is or isn't in his setting or what he may have to change, but I've never come across a DM say "You need to make your Con a 12 and be a thief". The DM sets parameters and the Player works within those parameters.
About the closest I've seen is some GMs enforcing/strongly suggesting party roles if there's an obvious gap like the group having nobody who can heal.
If I might make a vain effort at summing up the debate to reach some kind of conclusion, I think we could all say that Anti-Magic Field can be a useful spell if used tactically, but can easily backfire if it's used in the wrong situation, or if you assume that just casting it is an auto-win against anything with spells or supernatural abilities.
As I recall, the complexity of the rules was the main factor in the PFS ban. Like others have mentioned, the base summoner is stronger since he gets an Eidolon with the same statline as the Synthesist, while the summoner himself keeps his own action economy and a very nice spell list.
As far as I'm aware, PFS generally bans things on account of them not working well in organized play, or brushing up against the no evil characters rule. I don't follow every single PFS decision, but I'm not aware of any that were handed down solely due to balance concerns. The closest example I can think of is the Crane Wing nerf, which was a dev ruling based on PFS input.
I think most people are fine with restrictions on some character creation options, as long as they're clearly spelled out and available at the start of the process. Where the problem comes up is when restrictions are sprung at the last minute.
There's a huge difference between telling someone "No X allowed" before they even sign up for the campaign, and saying it when they show up with a filled out character sheet and accompanying background info.
I'd be fine with just an untyped +1 to hit every 4 levels too. Probably a better solution, in many ways.
As a thought, maybe take a precedent from the monk's Flurry of Blows, and say that rogues count as full BAB when sneak attacking?