CharlieRock's page

Could you give me the source book on double hit and karmic strike so I can look them up?

Double Hit, miniatures handbook. Karmic Strike, complete warrior.

I like dragons, too. The one I used in-game was a young adult red and we only engaged this bladed blender Attack-o-matic guy for one round. (again, I just used the green and two rounds for an example).
Get this, in the game the players actually ran away. The team spell caster was a pyromancer and largely ineefective against the red. And the fighter knew he wasn't going to stand much more of this type of punishment (even though the bard was casting defensive with cure spells). So the dragon in-game technically won the fight (but wisely choose to not pursue the party all out as his HP was well below half). Seeing what this combo could actually do in-game was shocking and most other monsters in the dungeon didn't really have a chance, what with getting hit so many times even for reaching out to the character.
The possibilities for brokeness really appear with keen edged and supplemental help from the team. A bard at similar level (with the fighter using expertise) will fill in all the penalised numbers from AC to hit bonus. Add in a Tumble2000 backstabber (rogue with tumble rank 15) and pretty much every melee fight is an exercise in pointless die rolling.
I think this is a broken aspect of AoOs. But, then again, AoOs have been my personal whipping boy for D&D3.5.

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CharlieRock wrote:

Robilar's is actually the only one with a required BAB (12). It also needs Combat Reflexes.
Karmic and Double Hit need only BAB +6, Combat Reflexes, DEX 17, TWF, Combat Expertise (INT13), and Dodge. Four feats, two scores, and a 6th level fighter can have AoO madness. (well, five feats once you add Combat Reflexes).

So, a 6th-Level fighter would need:

Int 13, Dex 17;
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Two-weapon Fighting
Karmic Strike (Complete Warrior, page 102)
Double Hit (I don't own the Miniatures Handbook; do those off-hand weapon AoO's count against the character's Attacks of Opportunity total?)

Okay, I realize a dragon won't just stand there and grind off hit points. That was just for an example so we could see how the damage output stacks up (after only two rounds, too.)

If you throw the 6th level fighter above (no, the off-hand attacks are part of one AoO and thus do not count against the total) into the game he is going to fight a lot better (i.e. it gets more broken). Any kind of stock-stat gnoll is looking at getting attacked five times for all of running up there and hitting with their battleaxe.
Combat expertise almost makes up for the AC penalty Karmic Strike imposes. And a bard companion could fill in the missing attack modifiers. A cleric even more so (especially daunting is if the cleric buddy casts Enlarge Person). Or worse yet, this combo with a large weapon a la goliath PC race (+1 ECL). Now any medium creature is going to get hit twice at range and twice more for hitting the character (with four more AoO attack rolls waiting in reserve).
Let me just remind us about the chances for a critical here. The sixth level fighter gets almost five tries to roll a 19 or 20 (provided an opponent strike them once). Let them get to 10th level and craft a keen edged longsword and watch what numbers we'll be able to stack up.(eleven attackschances for 17 or higher counting full attack and every AoO available).

Chris Mortika wrote:

But if I were that green dragon, there's no way I'd be throwing another five physical attacks the second round.

Screw the next round, if I were that green dragon, I'd stop after the first or second counter attack. ;-)

If I were the dragon, I'd switch to ranged combat - breath weapon + spells. Or grapple. Or change tactics and use a full power attack with my most powerful attack to maximize the damage so that I hurt the fighter more than he can hurt me. Only a mindless opponent or one with no options would continue to throw straight melee attacks at this guy.

(also, the feat combo doesn't strike me as any worse than the improved trip spiked chain build, which can easily own a humanoid opponent with a higher CR).

LoL

One thing I sometimes do is throw a player's build right back at them. Trip fighters for trip fighters, bull rushers for bull rushers. Makes things kind of fun.
Throwing two of these maniac AOOers at each other sounds ... well, I can go get my old ShadowRun dice cup out again.
Trip fighters specialize against lower STR humanoid types. The Karmic Striker/TWFer specializes against a much broader type of opponent category. Basically anyone and anything who enters melee.

CharlieRock wrote:

I am fairly comfy with Robilar's, Karmic Strike, and Double Hit (and Combat Reflexes) taken seperately. It is together that my problems are appearing.

Help me out, because I don't have my books with me. How many feats is that, including pre-requisite feats? Is there any BAB pre-requisite for any of them?

I ask because I know what some fighters can do with other feat chains, and I want to know what to compare this to.

But if I were that green dragon, there's no way I'd be throwing another five physical attacks the second round.

Robilar's is actually the only one with a required BAB (12). It also needs Combat Reflexes.

Karmic and Double Hit need only BAB +6, Combat Reflexes, DEX 17, TWF, Combat Expertise (INT13), and Dodge. Four feats, two scores, and a 6th level fighter can have AoO madness. (well, five feats once you add Combat Reflexes).

What is Robilard's Gambit? Is it a feat? Special ability? Where does it come from? And most importantly, why allow crazy stuff like this in your game?

Robilar's Gambit is a general/fighter feat from the PH2 (pg.82 IIRC). Why allow this crazy stuff? I dunno ... why is it in there??

Yes, I just gave fire shield as an example. I don't usually have these problems. My players don't pour through the books looking for every last broken thing they can find. I'm sure if Robilar's was used as intended, it's not that bad.

Another option is to give the baddies blink/displacement. I'm sure there are other options. But you just turn it into a arms race and that's no fun for anyone. Maybe talk to the player about toning it down so you don't have to nerf him?

I am fairly comfy with Robilar's, Karmic Strike, and Double Hit (and Combat Reflexes) taken seperately. It is together that my problems are appearing.

And minions? Heh, with Combat Expertise the penalty to AC is almost negligible and a lower to-hit is still okay to hit ACs of 20 or lower most of the time.
I've renamed these feats; Minions Worthlessized. =)

defensive spells are a DM's best friend. OR have fire shield or somesuch on. The fighter will take damage every time he hits.

Fireshield is too easily countered. A second level spell almost totally negates its effect.

Well, I can see where your getting at though. Problem is the fighter also has 10 fire resist armor limiting my shield types. So, I'm basically going to have an array of frost shielded monsters (or acid).
I'm thinking these feats are going to become disallowed in game.
A bard's inspire courage +2 and defensive casting cure spells means I am almost at a loss with combat challenges. The critical hit probability is very high with this combo (I'm never dropping a keen edge out there for this character to pick up as he is scoring one almost every fight as it is).

Fighter's stats in example need not be any higher then
STR 16
DEX 20
Con 10
INT 13
WIS 6
CHA 6
With the advances made in INT (4th), DEX (8th), and DEX (12th).

Dragon's average damage was figured this ways: Bite 18avg., claws 11avg., and wings 9 avg ea. (+20 if using Robilar's Gambit but unmodified using Karmic Strike).

Robilar's Gambit allows you to take an AoO for every strike against you. You sacrifice 4 points to their attack and damage rolls. Karmic Strike is almost the same, except it only works against successful strikes against you (and sacrifices only the 4pt penalty to AC).
Taken with Double Hit and Combat Reflexes (which is already a prerequisite for these feats) and a Fighter12 can take on and defeat a CR13 green dragon.
How?
1st round: Fighter hits with +12/+7/+2 base , modified to +18/+13/+8 with weapon focus, +2 longsword, and +3 STR (not too over the top and suggested attack numbers of a NPC Fighter12 on DMG pg. 117). With 2WF and a +2 short sword this turns into +16/+16/+11/+6. Hits a CR13 GrDragon (AC27) 50% twice, 25%, and 5%. We're looking at an average two hits a round with average damage at 19hp. The GrDragon will make five attacks on a full round action granting the fighter five AoOs (which turn into ten attacks at +16 with the Double Hit feat). That's an average five more hits for around another 50hp damage.
69 points of damage isn't the end of this though. Say the weapon was a +2 frost longsword and drinka potion of bull's strength and we're talking an average of 107 points of damage in one round. In two rounds the GrDragon is going to have a whopping 16hp.
In one round the GrDragon can count on an average of 58 or 78 hp damage dealt in return (depending on if Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit were used and all five attacks hitting , which at around +25 to-hit they probably are).
Two rounds into a fight and the fighter is -116HP and the dragon is at -214. The dragon is taking twice the damage as the fighter!
We all know you can put on several kinds of shows using similar numbers. But what I'm getting down to is that a fighter came deliriously close to single-handedly taking out a huge dragon last night. Not to mention the player is getting twelve chances to roll a crit hit.
So now, my question; since dragons are not posing much of a threat to my ECL12 team ... what next? Is raising the CR my only option?

Settle the discussion once and for all. Check out D3:Vault of the Drow. Especially the original interior artwork by David C. Sutherland III. I have looked very closely at mine and it looks like five fingers with digits just like ours (except they are pretty darn slender). It is written by Gary Gygax and is the first publishing of drow from TSR (1978).
Paizo has it for pdf (I'm sure) and it has been rated one of the top modules of all time D&D gaming. So after you have settled the arguemnt you can go ahead and play a great game of D&D.

Last time I checked WotC RPG sales represented about 50% of RPG sales. (figure taken from Game Trade Magazine). The other 50% was White Wolf, Palladium, Troll Lord Games, Steve Jackson Games, etc.
While obviously the best selling RPG, it is still shy of being the RPG market.

EDIT:Oops, did I say that figure came from Game Trade Magazine? I meant Comic & Game Retailer magazine. Sorry =/

As much bank as WotC makes with M:tG ... and they'd be crazy not to have all kinds of 'expansions'. I'd be surprised if they didn't have a generalised outline of 4th edition all the way out to 5th edition. It would only make things easier on them if they did.

sta·bi·lize /ˈsteɪbəˌlaɪz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[stey-buh-lahyz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -lized, -liz·ing.
–verb (used with object) 1. to make or hold stable, firm, or steadfast.
2. to maintain at a given or unfluctuating level or quantity: The government will try to stabilize the cost of living.

So does that mean that the roll of 11-19 "No change" means stabilized? This is actually what I thought when I first read it, but that is ... too dumb even for Andy Collins.

Michael Landis wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

Presumably, those kicks are inflicting damage of some kind. So, each time you do it, you drive the person closer to the negative hit point threshold, and once they pass it, they die.

Err... then don't let the 20th level monk kick you? ;)

Yeah, you can't do this infinitely, but it's still one of those dumb metagamey things for which the DM will have to swat certain player-types. I guess I shouldn't complain because, after all, it is cathartic and makes for good exercise.

Now we're speculating about totally different parts of the 4.0 rules, but one thing I could that could stop that tactic, or at least mostly stop it is if the cleric could heal players to 1/4 of their HP out of combat without wasting any resources. After all, 4th edition does promise that players will have "at-will" spells and powers. Some sort of limited healing could be part of that. If that's the case, trying to get a player to roll a natural 20 would qualify more as a waste of time instead of as rules abuse.

There is a power in StarWars:SAGA that allows you to trance out and next round get a auto-20 on your attack roll. During your trance if you get hit it is a crit. (you can abuse this power with the rogue's evade-a-crit ability, but that isn't the point here). If (and this is actually likely) SW:S influenced D&D4 to the point where an ability like this is in both games. So, you have the fighter trance out. Then, the cleric wails on the fighter (with a poorly damaging weapon). With that insta-crit the cleric heals his allies (including his chum that he just nailed) including any laying down in the negative hps. I can just see it now:

"Stop! Or I'll bust my friend in the head!"

Joe-Bob the Fighter gets knocked to -2hp in the current game. You've got 8 rounds to stabilize him before he's dead, with a 57% chance that he'd stabilize on his own in that time.

Unless your fighting a pack of unintelligent beasties that are only looking for a meal. Then you have to get to Joe-Bob before one of them nips off with his entrails.

Or, a particularly bloodthirtsty band of Orcs that like watching blood spurt up in he air when they hit things that go *thwack!*. Especially if the pile of thwack won't hit back. "Oh-gore, watch..." *thwack-splash* "Ew, good one. Me next."

I am playing this with a very rules-light DM. However I am thinking of running it myself sometime. So I have another question for those who have converted D&D stuff. How does it work with XP? There is a big difference in the leveling up between 1st/2nd ed and 3/3.5ed.

If you wanting to play/run an AP style module track (say the 2nd ed TOEE, slaver, giants track) would you need to cut out some of the module so the characters aren't too powerful at the end?? Or is the C&C XP track more equivalent to 2nd ed??

I havn't ran a TOEE yet, but characters actually advance either slower or on par with 3rd edition D&D characters from three 1e modules (ToH, White Plume Mountain, and Keep on the Borderlands). You may actually have to award more experience then usual (about 20-25% more?) if you want them to progress like D&D3 characters.

I don't know how close C&C XP is like AD&D2's, but it is very close to the way XP was handled in BECMI D&D/AD&D1.

That's in the "Try it in your 3rd edition game" section. How it works in 4E may be slightly different.

it should give you an idea of how it’ll feel.

Sorry, that's how they advertised that bit. And they didn't arrive at any of their numbers by pulling them from a hat.

There was a hit location table for OD&D (pre-1e) in Blackmoor. It was also where the assassin character class was introduced. (paizo has this on pdf) It was apparently not popular as I havn't seen a reprint of these optional rules.
The main thing I don't like about this is it would allow min/maxers the ability to forego any kind of rescue/response because they know that all they need is a crit (base 5% chance and increase with abilities and items already previewed) and everybody who is "dead" pops back up with 1/4 health, raring to go. Has any of the playtesters tried using a party full of clerics with every crit-increasable ability/item and seen what happens? Were they too busy gushing over how cool it was not dying? How long until a DM has a party of crit-healing clerics to say "This is a bit broken, what do I do?" Will this be fixed for DDI subscribers or in 4.5?

I use a dry erase board. It's maybe 8' x 24'. Just line numbers up one side with divider lines (in permanent marker) and jot down names in your erasable marker as you go. Problem was I topped it off with 25 as the highest initiative and there are two players who regularly roll at or around this amount (so if they rolled a 26 and a 27 then they're "off the board"). I tried using different colors for PCs and NPCs and stuff. Not so much now.
Oh, and really don't want to mix your markers up with the ones you use for your wet-erase battlemat. :0

Edit: I suppose this is just a sloppy looking combat pad. I should go get the GameMastery one. It's prettier (and no more panic moments when I find myself standing over the mat with a dry rease in my mitt).

So, if Ace and Buzz are well into negatives (say, -20 and -50 respectively) the cleric just needs to score a crit (5% chance with no need to confirm, or higher percenta chance since they did say there were abilities that extended crit range) and up pops Ace and Buzz (who healed as if they were 0hp).

Tatterdemalion wrote:

I'm going to snatch up all the 3.5 volumes I can

Might I recommend Pathfinder and the GameMastery modules? ^_^

I would recommend those as well. =)

Want a cheap heal spell?

A dying character who’s been stabilized (via the Heal skill) doesn’t roll a d20 at the end of his turn unless he takes more damage.

So, [heal=skill not spell]
Heal' em. Kick' em.
Wait two turns.
Heal' em. Kick' em.
Wait two turns.
Eventually he'll roll a twenty and pop back up with 1/4 health.

(remember a heal skill stabilizes you, and you roll after taking more damage, and a roll of 20 brings you to 1/4 health)

Here's a site that has Conan statted up through each and every book he was in. If I recall, these stats have been up since 3rd edition's debut.

um ... was there a link supposed to be in that somewhere =?

For those of you that have converted d20 adventures over to C&C, how have you found the quantity / power level of magic items? Have you had to remove/modify a bunch of magic items to make the adventure match the C&C atmosphere or have you been able to pretty much leave them as is?

Forum just for that stuff here =D

Oh, and where he meets the Hyrkanian archer? Why that's gotta be one of the most original adventurer meetups out there... ;)

Which never happens in any of the original books or stories.=)

Megan Robertson wrote:

Company after company appear to be winding down popular and successful D20 Dungeons and Dragons lines. While there's always the urge to be up ahead with the current trends, do they really think that everyone's going to drop 3rd Edition D&D like a hot potato come the summer?

Even if 4th Edition D&D is as good as Wizards seem to think it will be, it's going to take time to percolate through the gaming community; while a lot of people remain ready to be convinced that the switch is worthwile at all.

Please, publishers, do not slam the door shut...

Paizo has a very full slate of 3.5 edition products scheduled up until GenCon that have been announced. We haven't been slowing down one bit as 4e approaches. So get your 3.5 fix here! :)

-Lisa

And GameMastery is a great series of modules, too! =D

Knights of the Dinner Table will be resurrecting their "Face Off" series in a future issue when they will focus on 4E and who is 'converting' and who is not (for that article).

Megan Robertson wrote:

Company after company appear to be winding down popular and successful D20 Dungeons and Dragons lines. While there's always the urge to be up ahead with the current trends, do they really think that everyone's going to drop 3rd Edition D&D like a hot potato come the summer?

Even if 4th Edition D&D is as good as Wizards seem to think it will be, it's going to take time to percolate through the gaming community; while a lot of people remain ready to be convinced that the switch is worthwile at all.

Please, publishers, do not slam the door shut...

I think what you are seeing is the "time to market" pressure. Many in business believe that if you lag behind your competition you will lose market share. The ones that are switching over to 4E see 3E as a losing bet for the long haul. Given those two dynamics it seems inevitable that publishers are looking to switch sooner rather than later or risk becoming niche publishers.

There have been very notable exeptions. GameMastery modules are relatively new (in 3E terms) but (imo) make up some of the best adventures in that system. I'd rank them right up there with Goodman Games' DCC line (better then, if your not into the 'retro' thing).

Not to rain on your parade...

But is this event of any interest to those of us who don't have a Second Life account?

What in haywood is Second Life? Is that sort of like In Nomine (SJGames)?

I don't think I can be swayed to D&D4. I'm going to skip it like I did AD&D2.
I don't know why, but the even numbered D&D editions just don't interest me.

Does the spell wounding whispers cause it's retributive damage for every attack, or per round. The wording makes it sound like it could go both ways.
Basically, if a cave ape attacks a bard (with a full attack for two claws and a bite) who has cast wounding whispers does the cave ape take damage from one blast from the spell or three (provided each attack of the full attack hits, of course).

The spined devil dude has a stat at 19 (+7). The PF has one at 20(+18). So there are at least two types of stats?

My team has no human or halfling members. They don't carry around torches or lanterns. So that change could have affected us. ("could")

The feat that extends duration for a spell is handy for summoners. You'll burn out your slots if you use it for every summon, but sometimes you don't want your monster to disappear before a minute has elapsed.

Looks cool.

Is your tolerance to try something new fading? Is the D&D logo on your hand flashing away? Are you a runner? If so, will you find Sanctuary?

It's actually my desire to try something new that precludes me from getting D&D4. D&D is not synonymous with RPG for me. It is only one brand name among many. An expensive one at that. Instead I'll be checking out Castles & Crusade, Chronicles of Ramlar, and GURPS in '08. Maybe d6 Space, we'll see how it goes.

If I represent the majority, then WOTC has crashed and burned themselves with these publications. If I represent the minority, then it doens't matter. Who else has had similar or opposite experiences with trying to read this material, with the difference being it is not in book/magazine form?

I have almost identical feelings. I read forums when MrsCharlie has the remote for the TV. That's about it for digital reading. Hurts my eyes after awhile.

And printing it? I'm not ashamed to say my printer can kick my butt. It can suplex my better sense and then the inkjet hops out and dropkicks my wallet in the nads.

I printed a bunch of the tiles from Dunjinni and use my battlemat. I also got some of those mappacks from Gamemastery and a set from WotC. Good maps help the illusion.

Not only were the magazines enjoyable to read, they were important for the industry as a whole - a kind of communication link with fans.

I looked at it as a link between fans, as well. There were a few times another gamer saw me reading or carrying Dragon around and struck up a conversation. Also, people always want to take your magazines and look through them. I know I do. When I see somebody reading something, especially with cool pictures, I want to see it for myslef (like, "Hey, what're you reading? That's a cool dragon."). Maybe it's just me but I don't get too curious about what someone is reading on their computer. They could take it the wrong way, or just be playing a video game (which leads to interesting conversation but about video games, not RPGs).

Free or not, once they announce some content, they should provide it in reasonable delays. Advertising is a serious thing.

A few days delay is fine. But we are in mid-january, and most of the things announced for december are still not here.
Bad management, bad publishing.
I fail to see how this digital mess is an improvement from the old paper magazines. Oh, i miss Dragon and Dungeon :(
Many fansites are much better than the official website.
This is very embarassing for WotC...

That is hardly embarrasing. If I have read the writing on the wall correctly, their preview books for 4e are actually selling (@ $20 a pop).

Why waste time with these non-profit e-zines when you can put it out on print for twenty bucks? And don't say that they could have done it in magazine form because they are making mint on those books (which has nothing that won't get regurgitated in the main rulebooks.)

CharlieRock wrote:

The fighter in my team has a +5 STR and 7 ranks in jump. He's cleared twenty foot chasms quite often.

What type of armor is he using?

Anyway, that is why I make a specific list of skills that the extra points can be used with. I noticed some skills were not ever being used due to the lack of enough skill points. So I allow extra points but they have to be used on these poor neglected skills instead of the truly useful skills.

I think he is wearing mithral breastplate.

He can kensai burst of strength that up more for a round if he really wanted to, I guess.
The classes that ought to have more skill points are usually the ones hurting. Rogues can't get their best at more then a couple of skills until mid-high level. Bards aren't the skill monkeys that the book makes them out to be. But the fighter, cleric, barbarian types. They're doing fine.

D&D is just a game to me. I don't have to play D&D. In fact, I skipped the entire second edition due to playing other games and only recently (relative term that) played the third edition.
So let's not go assuming people will 'cave in' to buying a game that actually has really good competition right this moment.

yes i am trying to pinpoint my target by the shadow, and when i read the true strike spell it is defined

-you actually get a for-sight into your next attack and you can see just where the person will be during your attack that is the justification for the +20

so with all that i am arguing that i can see where exactly my opponent is gunna be at that exact moment. i dont mine a slight (-) modifier but my dm wants to just shut down the entire action by just saying that my true strike doesnt work.

Shadows represent (imo) a blurry image of where your targets is going to be. Blur gives a 20% coverage bonus. So I'd go with a 20% miss ,and beating that percentage your true strike bonus will be in full effect.

I wouldn't add skill points to a game. They really start to add up around mid level. By then a lot of the class skills will be close to maxing out. Y'all do realize what a fighter can do with +3 STR and ,say ,ten ranks in jump. They're going to hit a 20' long jump (run started) with a regularity. The world record long jump is only 29.something'. Now you have somebody with a 20% (probably better if he just ran over 30')chance of beating that.
The fighter in my team has a +5 STR and 7 ranks in jump. He's cleared twenty foot chasms quite often.

The things that get dudettes to game are almost the same things that get dudes to game. An interest in the genre and a fun game. Or at least what looks the part. Like, everybody likes dragons. You don't have to girly them up to get a dudette to look at one. Their just cool.

People are always getting marginalized by any kind of marketing. When somebody wants to sell me something they blow stuff up and call it a guy's thing. Or zip everything past the camera lens and call it Extreme whatever. I seen a ping-pong game on T.V. once. At the commercial break the announcer called it Extreme Tabletop Tennis. Why? To get a guy to watch it so they can sell me deoderant that'll give me muscles and a suave five o'clock shadow.

From what I read, they agreed to it beforehand. No "just roll" involved. They only started to complain once things went south.

Yeah, he went from "I'm jumping up there and grabbing his robe and pulling it off of him and down with me." to "I said I was just going to grapple him off the ceiling."

Well, I thought it would be funner to have the rogue stick to the ceiling and watch the team (who rather quickly dispatched the medusa) figure out how to get him off/dispelled then go and figure out what the hardness of a statue is and what damage it takes from a fall and/or if it lands on the jumping guy (who should logically be close to under it). I was already done with looking up arcane rules from the book and wanted to just pose a quick puzzler to the team.

So, this was one of the first things that jumped out at me when I started looking at 4E, that they were 'fixing' the fact that spellcasters run out of spells.

Ignoring HOW they are going about 'fixing' this for now, is this even a problem? Do you think it is something you would look at changing if you were the maker of 4E?

Sean Mahoney

I only DM D&D3.x ,but it seems to me that the characters rarely ran out of spells. It has to be either a large scale battle (like 40 vs 20 or so) or an unrelenting 'chase'-style action sequence (like when the PCs were trying to find the vampires coffins hidden under the city while fighting off the day-time guardians. They really didn't want the sun to set before they found the coffins.)

Other then those two, uncommon, circumstances the spell casters hardly ever totally run spell-dry.

Sigo
Human Cleric6
Failed save vs Disintegrate
Had over fifty scrolls in a backpack that went *poof* as well.
Setting: Alternate Hyboria

Well, the disrobe attempt , the one we did by the book (the do-over). It wasn't successful. That roll was botched and I had to decide on-the-spot if slippers of spider walking would stick a dude to a ceiling if he is turned to stone. Or drop like a rock (so to speak).