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Perhaps this is the character in question; I’m unfamiliar with the game:
I’ve heard good things about sap master rogues, so here’s a build by Ravingdork:
Since in the wiki he seems reluctant to kill the sap master build sounds fitting, also it mentions him using a blackjack (sap) and sword, of course you’d need to adjust the ability scores.
In most of the games that I’ve played in there have been some streamlining of things to help martial classes run smoother, I wonder how other players/GM have handled this. I’ll give several examples, but I’m also curious about other topics too.
Climbing in combat: basically in every game I’ve been in your character can climb, even if say your character is “sword and board” and has both hands full at the time. Otherwise it would take a full round to put everything away, then at least a move action the next round to do the climbing and another full round to get everything out again. Enforcing the climbing rules is OK if that’s your thing, I guess it would add a lot of strategic depth to battles.
All these weapons, where do they go? I’m no expert on medieval weaponry, but how does some of this stuff get carried around? Notably reach weapons like long spears, and large weapons like greatswords. Does your character have to hold them all the time? Can you sheath a greatsword, do reach weapons have some kind of “holder”? Considering the climbing question above, how would you climb if there was no way to stow these weapons? Basically in the games I’ve played in your characters have some way of putting all of their weapons away, that greatsword, it’s strapped to their back … along with their backpack, sleeping bag, bow and the other golf bag of weapons. >.>
The arrow counting game: that’s right you have to keep track of arrows, especially those archer focused martials. If you have no arrows you can’t shoot your bow martial man, only logical after all.
Verisimilitude unfairly holding your martial characters back, it’s more likely than you think. ;P
My response: I can’t hear you call for verisimilitude over the complete absurdity that is the spell component pouch. Let’s make a comparison, you say bows require arrows to function on the other hand many spells require material components to be cast. Then again that only seems to be the case since in the material component section in the magic section of the CRB basically says “don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost, it’s in your spell component pouch.” Strange thing, guess what also quickly becomes a negligible cost, arrows they’re 5 coppers apiece. Let’s consider the spell comprehend languages it has a pinch of soot and salt, this doesn’t seem that big of a deal during our current day and age, but from what I’ve heard salt used to be a very valuable commodity. The spell component pouch has an unlimited supply of it. As a note Ultimate Equipment has salt being worth 5 gold a pound in the trade goods section.
Let’s use fireball as an example, it has a material components of “a ball of bat guano and sulfur”. Now then apparently the spell component pouch has an unlimited amount of bat guano balls and pinches of sulfur. >.> Also all of this bat guano and sulfur weighs less than 2 lb., which is how much a spell pouch weighs, wow unlimited stuff weighs a LOT LESS THAN I THOUGHT! >.> Another thing every time you learn a spell with a new material component your spell component pouch automatically grows a new pouch full of an infinite amount of the stuff. >.>
In short keeping track of mundane things is for MARTIALS ONLY, all casters are exempt as per the spell component pouch! /end rant ;P
I would I would go along the lines of a certain Dragonlance character:
Raistlin Majere: Twin brother of Caramon Majere, Raistlin was a frail and sickly boy, who was often bullied as a youth, causing him to develop an arrogance and hatred of other people. Due to his half-sister Kitiara's intervention, he was sponsored and accepted into the Academy of Magic, becoming an adept student. His passion for the magic arts fueled his will, driving him to sacrifice even his health in order to become a mage. When he took the Test, the Heads of the Tower in Wayreth Forest feared his arrogance and ambition so much that they cursed his sight, causing him to see the inevitable decay of all creatures, in the hopes that this would teach him compassion, but it only increased his bitterness.
Change the curse (which could be like an oracles curse only removable by a deity) given to the character to paralysis and there you go IMO.
As a note, even though I’m not running this game in Pathfinder the advice that I’m after is really game system independent. Thank you in advance for any advice given.
Hello everyone, I’m currently working on starting a Mutants and Masterminds 2nd edition game set in the anime Bleach. I suppose that here I’ll look for ways to bring the themes of the anime to life, rather than an extensive discussion about the anime setting. In general I would describe the premise of a Bleach inspired setting would be “good ghosts VS evil ghosts”.
There are plenty of excellent sites for additional information concerning Bleach, but most of them contain images probably protected by copyright so I will chose not to link to them in this thread, also some of them have advertisements that may not be work or child friendly.
victims. As for these evil ghosts, they generally come about in 3 ways:
The good ghost not only fight these evil ghost, but also guide souls to the Soul Society, and maintain the balance of souls between the world of the living and the Soul Society. The balance of souls is important because if it’s not maintained the two worlds will crash into each other and destroy each other.
In addition to all of this there will be another element, in that the good ghosts have human allies, one organization that they will know of and another that they will not. There will be a conflict between the good ghosts and one of these, since this human group uses a method that destroys the soul of the evil soul monsters. The destruction of souls threatens to balance of souls, so it threatens to destroy two worlds. To complicate things, the soul of these humans differs from the souls of other people in that they cannot become evil ghosts, instead they are destroyed when eaten. This means that when an evil ghost attacks one of these humans and a good ghost in not there to intervene then a soul will be destroyed.
The conflict between good souls and evil souls will be simple black and white, which will give a break to more complex moral dilemmas involving the human group. Handling this aspect will probably be rather challenging, I would like the PCs to have a chance to stop a possible war between these factions while still having a chance at failing to prevent it as well.
One of the easiest solutions would be for the good ghost to teach the technique of not destroying souls to the humans. This isn’t as easy as it seems, since it took the good ghost, from what I can tell, about 1000 years to perfect it and it would probably not work for humans. They would need their own method of soul purification that might take just as long to develop and with the rate the human group is growing and destroying souls that’s not permissible. Helping develop this could be a way to diffuse the situation, but it shouldn’t be done with a few good die rolls IMO. Perhaps multiple magical devices would need to be constructed, each requiring quests for rare and exotic materials and research into new magical spells.
Other methods to end the hostilities could be used too, for example since these humans can basically cast spells, maybe they could learn magic that restrains the evil ghosts until the good ghosts can arrive to purify it. There was a group of these people who basically suggested this in the anime. This could also bridge the gap while their soul cleansing technique can be perfected.
One roadblock to a peaceful resolution to the conflict would be humans who have had family and loved ones souls destroyed by evil ghosts having a vengeful attitude, seeing the destruction of evil ghost with an eye for an eye style of justice who might not even use soul purification methods even if they became available. I’m interest in hearing other ways to highlight this conflict and ways to resolve it mechanically and otherwise.
I suppose that it’s natural when given options that people will want to chose the “best” option, otherwise it could seem like a wasted opportunity. On the other hand, in a way PC power in Pathfinder is kind of an illusion, no matter how powerful a PC a player or players make the GM can adjust the difficulty of the game to compensate.
The reverse is true too, if the players make weak characters the GM can make the game easier to help the weaker PCs, while keeping the challenge of the game at the right level. This works best if all of the PCs are around the same “power level” IMO.
If all of the players can agree to a certain level of optimization, even if it’s fairly weak and if the GM agrees to adjust the difficulty of the game, then it doesn’t matter if the PCs aren’t super strong. This is probably good in theory, but judging the relative power level of PCs is not science and you don’t have control over the other PCs.
Thank you RigaMortis and Diego Rossi, I believe that your handling of Detect Magic is more nuanced than my own, I’ll have to try and run the spell that way next time I GM Pathfinder.
Detect magic to find invisible creatures, probably not too bad, since it would take at least 3 rounds of concentration, which can be inturupted and funtions in a 60' cone. That's large enough in a lot of situations, but not in all cases.
Detect magic for traps, while it doesn't defeat the trap it gives away it's location. I guess that in most cases continually DM everywhere your going will slow your pace significantly, that could be a limiting factor if time is important.
I have a guestion regarding the Loremaster's Lore ability. In the beginning of the prestige class section the difference between "character level" and "class level" is given, in the lore description it just says "... adds half his level ..." without saying which it was refering to. So is it character or class level? Since it's similar to the bard's "bardic knowledge" I would gess class level, since bardid knowledge mentions class level. On the other hand having an extra +1 to knowledge skills at 9th level doesn't seem so great, at least it allows untrained knowledge skill checks.
@ Ziltmilt: the increasing spellcraft DC check is interesting, it depends on the details. For example spellcraft DC 10 + 1 for time the cantrip is cast seems to be what is implied. Is this only for cantrips cast consecutively (round after round) or just casting the same cantrip in the same day? What happens if a spellcraft check is failed? I would imagine that if you’re going this route just not successfully casting the spell is quite enough IMO, there should be a time period to recollect ones thoughts to attempt again. It could be one minute, one hour, or even unusable for the rest of the day. I would have to think carefully to make the failed check matter without making it too punishing I guess.
@ Fake Healer: The main reason I mentioned the OP is because I was worried that some might think I was making an off topic response. Later in the thread the main vibe seemed to be how cantrips affect the world economy and not how it affected adventurers. I guess I didn’t see his opening comments as trollish, but maybe some could. I can see how not responding to your own thread could make someone look like a troll though.
I’m supprised that detect magic hasn’t been brought up in this thread. In the opening post Martin Kauffman 530 noted unlimited cantrips “… tends to make classes like the rogue less useful. …” In a game I ran a player proposed that since detect magic can be used at will that magical traps are completely useless. Also they stated that creatures hidden by the spell invisibility are no longer a threat. Finally it would weaken if not invalidate the enchantment school, someone acting strange? Cast detect magic, get the aura of enchantment, then you know the cause of the strange behavior.
In the end I asserted that since the people who created magical traps (including spells like the circle of X spell), invisibility, and the enchantment line of spells knew about detect magic and since they are not stupid, they made all of that non detectable by detect magic. The player was not entirely satisfied by that, but went with it. Is that a house rule, or how it generally works? Has anyone had problems with detect magic?
How about you suggest that your friend GM play a short game series, like 1-3 game sessions where all of the PCs are evil (or near evil) (if the other players agree) or just lets you play a evil (or near evil) and let him see how it plays out. Doing this would be easier than getting him agree to a long running campaign. That way maybe he might see if he likes that kind of play in the game without long term "damage" in a longer running game. It could help iron out any problems before they could effect a "main character".
One thing about detect alignment, the paladin detect evil thing and the rest is that they are not fool proof. For example clerics get the spell "undetectable alignment" as a second level spell. This spell lasts 24 hours and protects against all forms of divination. There's probably magic items that can help to.
Just as a personal opinion you'll probably want to work with the DM to find a line between neutral and evil that you can both live with. Also a lot of what's in the opening post is completely up to the GM, so it sounds like being a "nearly evil" PC could be hard IMO.
Another option would be Zen Archer monk for the first 3 levels, then go into inquisitor. The problem is monks don't have a lot of knowledge skills.
The Zen Archer uses Wis on attack rolls with bows, which means you won't be able to drop str. without penalty, but since you Dex wont need to be high (to make bow attacks anyway) it should work out OK.
Finally you'd have to wait until 4th level to pick up spell casting.
A build using these stats is something to think on:
Ranged: Use a cross bow to avoid the str. penalty, feats Point Blank, Precise shot and weapon focus cross bow.
With a masterwork weapon you'll have an attak of +7(8 with PB) damage 1d8(+1).
Or Melee build
Inquisitor or Serenrea for scimitar prof
With a mssterwork scimitar its 6 (1d8+3), so not quite the to hit as ranged but more damage. I'd probably decrease ch to increase con with a melee build.
A cleric who focuses on spells and channel energy, picking up heavy armor prof could work as a front line type character. That way you just focus on wis, and cha.
I see that you’re interested in the inevitable subdomain, while that has anit-undead flair there are other domains and subdomains that are also anti undead themed that you could consider. One thing about the Inevitable sub is that the power it grants is a mind affecting supernatural ability doesn’t work on undead, since they’re immune to mind affecting effects. At 8th level axiomatic seems hit or miss as an anti undead power.
The Glory and Sun domains work great for clerics, not so great for inquisitors though.
The Soul subdomain (of the Repose Domain) could be really good for an inquisitor though, at first level it gives you an ability to imbue a weapon with something similar to ghost touch. At 8th level Ward Against Death shuts down a lot of undead’s most deadly features.
When fighting undead you could use cure spells to harm them, it takes a melee touch attack, but at least many creatures don't have a too high touch AC.
Dangerously Curious (trait): Benefits: You gain a +1 bonus on Use Magic Device checks, and Use Magic Device is always a class skill for you.
This could let you use UMD to use wands like magic missle and other spells to suplement your attacks. With a +2 age mod in cha skill ranks a +1 trait rank you could have a good chance at a DC 20 UMD wand check. 3 cha. bonus + 3 skill ranks + 3 training bonus + 1 trait = 10, +13 if you spend a feat for skill focus UMD.
I heard that you can make a melee character froma synthesist summoner. The benefit would be that you don't have to worry about your physical stats, you would use your eidolon's physical stats and your PC's mental stats. Here's a link for the synthesist summoner. By the way the summoner is in the Advanced Player's Guide. As another note this is banned from the Pathfinder Society play.
Hi jjajpro one of the most important ways of increasing AC is to get different modifiers to AC. In Pathfinder it’s important to remember bonuses of the same type do not stack, or add together.
Armor bonus is granted from the armor your character wears (usually), and shield is from shields, both of these can be increased by magically enhancing the armor or shield. One thing to remember about Dex. Mod to AC is that most armors limit the Dex mod that you can apply to your AC. Size mods only apply if your character is a size other than medium sized, well I guess you could say medium sized PCs have an AC size mod of 0.
The other mods to AC are quite diverse and extensive they include:
These are rather easy to get with magical items or feats, as a note dodge bonuses stack with each other. There are other mods to AC as well, they’re harder to get though.
Here’s a thread for an even more detailed guide to increase AC.
A mundane way could be traps, a simple trip wire attached to bells, or maybe a bear trap if you're going a little more hardcore.
There's also magical wards for UMD users like alarm, they have the advantage of having higher perception DC and requiring the trapfinding ability to spot. I guess some could say Detect Magic could find magic wards/traps, but I find that silly (hopefully not a derail).
I agree 100% Kryptik, the players should respect the GM and work with them to make the game fun for everyone. That includes respecting the game that they are running by creating PCs that fit in it and roleplaying them aproapreiately for that game.
I generally am very cautious about playing with DMs who take the “DM VS Player” philosophy. I of course realize that part of the responsibilities of the DM is to present challenges for the PCs to overcome, but when the DM takes this personally it can lead to a game that I don’t have fun in.
I guess it’s largely about attitude, I know that the DM has more authority in the game, and I appreciate the amount of work required to run a game. I’ll just say I believe that the game works best when there is mutual respect among GM and PCs. If I believe that the GM looks down on me as a player or a person I won’t be sticking around. That’s not to say I should have as much say rule wise as the DM, I know the DM is the final arbiter of the rules, has rule 0, does more work etcetera, but I don’t think this gives the DM the ability to disrespect the players. The DM need to be firm when running the game, not beating down the players with the “I’m the DM” hammer, that doesn’t earn my respect as a player, instead it’s one of the fastest ways for a DM to lose it. It’s possible to be firm and polite IMO.
Toppling Spell (Ultimate Magic)
A toppling spell only affects spells with the force descriptor.
Level Increase: +1 (a toppling spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.)
Seems like a guaranteed trip attempts vs one or more creature, and since it's not tied to the spell level it should scale fairly well IMO.
Edit: Sorry for some reason I thought Tommaso Gollini had asked for a feat better than maximised for magic missle, wierd. I'll delete this if you think it's too off topic.
Well from what I can tell from the wiki on hellknights is that the order itself is not evil. The order seems to be LN in that it respects the order and lawfulness of devils. Most hellknights from what it says “the common Hellknight joins out of a sense of duty and a wish to be a part of something greater”. So it doesn’t seem necessary to be cursed to become one.
Here’s the link: http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Hellknight
Edit: Having said that I'm pretty sure that the teachings of Iomedae would be incompatible with the philosophy of the hellknights.
As far as anyone who wound make graveknighs, consider Arazani, once a demigod and herald of the god Aroden (now assumed dead). She was raised as a lich by the wizard-king Geb and is now evil largely opposing Aroden’s replacement Iomedae. She has a retinue of five former Knights of Ozem re-animated by Geb as graveknights.
Here’s a link to a wiki post: http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Arazni
I would imagine that there's not a lot of role play threads on these boards for two reasons. 1) in most cases you have to be there to fully appreciate the story. 2) they usually do not lead to conversation. Other than adding an example or two there's really nothing to say.
Now for the downtime in games I'm currently in, I suppose that I'll have to disapoint and say that 95% of the downtime is glossed over. Most of the time because where playing in adventure paths where things are mostly on rails. Although I'm sure you can always deviate from the path not all DMs are comfortable in doing that.
I suppose I'll mention several things I noticed recently. First, any time my PC interacts with a member of the opposite gender they're assumed to be flirting/seducing them. For example, we found a 14 year old girl whose villige had just been burned to the ground and she was the only survivor. She was buring her parents when we got there. I anounced that my character helped her bury them and tried to console her. Everyone was like ohhh, 14 is like the age of consent in ye old days, we're sure your "making her feel better". I was like FACEPALM. This is the same in games I've played among many GMs, it's kind of weird.
Another thing, my first DM used anything you said against you, more or less. If you want to encourage downtime activities do not punish players for speaking up on what they're doing. I think I still have the mind set of "anything you say can and will be used against you, don't say anything." It's probably common sense, but I thought I'd throw it out there. As a note I don't play with that DM anymore.
Final thought a DM needs to be willing to work with a player to make the process fun for everyone. As an example, one of my current DMs had several extended downtime periods of months at a time. He did ask what PCs where doing during that time, but didn't really work with me when I began to describe what my character was doing. For example my halfling is a skilled rider and animal handler was fascinated by a group of friendly lizardfolk who had domesticated dinosaurs. Yes we met this group in game and had befriended them. I anounced that she was spending time helping them care for their dinosaurs and riding them if allowed to. The DM's response was little more than "halfling riding dinosaurs DERP" kind of in a mocking way FACEPALM.
I guess this goes with the whole risk vs reward thing. If you want to be the best cleric, you need to travel into the wild to find the mementos. I'm hoping that merit badges for non-combat oriented PCs there will be non-combat merit badges. I'm hoping that even non-combat clerics will be able to advance as clerics if the player prefers that play style.
Here's the proposed charter for the Ring of Earth. Note, I didn't make this charter, it was actually Drake.
Drake: "Charter: Ring Of Earth
The ring of Earth is the true Foundation of the Circle, it is with the resources we gather that the rest of the Circle depends. We will organize mining, logging, farming and other resource gathering operations with the support of the other rings. The quality of materials we gather will directly effect the quality of goods the Ring of Iron will produce. This in turn will effect the quality of gear at the disposal of the rest of the Circle, Finlay affecting the effectiveness of the Circle to Defend out Camps and Caravans. It is also the job of the Ring of Earth to construct Walls and Structures for the Circle as needed.
Guardian - The Guardian of Earth will provide guidence for the Ring, assist in aquiring Circle resources and deisgnate responsibilities for Wardens within the Ring. The Guardian also may give special titles within the Ring. The Guardian of Earth also has all the rights and responsibilities of a Warden of Earth.
Wardens - Wardens of Earth make up the main driving force for resource gathering operations. They set up and manage official operations for the Ring and can make direct requests to other Rings for assistance with official operations. Wardens may Vote in all Ring matters.
Keepers - Keepers of Earth are primarily assistants when it comes to Offical operations but may also set up and manage personal operations and request assistance from Wardens and other Keeprs of Earth with those operations. A Keeper that has been in the Ring for sufficient time may be allowed to run an Official operation under the supervision of a Warden. If a Keeper requires assistance from other Rings for an operation they are planning they should go through a Warden. Keepers may voice opinions on all Ring matters and may recieve a Vote on some Ring matters.
Initiates* - Initiates may participate in Official operations and personal operations as they wish. They may request assistance from Keepers and Wardens for personal operations. Initiates may voice thier opinions on most Ring matters. They do not recieve a Vote on any Ring matters.
*Initiate is not a true Rank within the Ring of Earth but more of a level of participation within the Ring. An Initiate is any member of the Keepers of the Circle that expresses interest in the Ring of Earth but is not a Keeper or higher ranked member of the Ring. Even the Sentinal can be concidered an Initiate in the Ring of Earth when not acting in an official Sentinal capacity. As a matter of respect they should be refered to by their rank within thier primary Ring.
Membership in other Rings
You may be a Keeper in any Rings you wish, it is highly recommended to also become a Keeper of Steal or Crystal for defense. Due to our close relationship with the Ring of Iron many members of the Ring of Earth will likely be members of the Ring of Iron.
Personal vs. Circle Business
Personal Business as it relates to the Ring of Earth is defined as gathering of resources for personal use where the end products do not go to members of the Circle but are instead used for Personal Profit.
Personal vs. Circle Resources
Personal Resources are resources you acquired using your own funds or skill, or your share of resources acquired during a Circle operation.
Operations and Camps
Gathering large amounts of resources will require building camps and running the harvesting operation out of the camp. This is expected to require multiple people over the course of multiple days. These will usually be Circle operations, but we may occasionally work with other organizations. Full Details are yet to be worked out, in part because we do not know enough about how Harvesting camps will work.
Members of the Ring of Earth may run personal harvesting operations, but they must be run using personal resources. If you use Circle resources you should donate a portion of the harvest to the Circle as compensation. The amount of the harvest you should give to the circle depends on the amount of Circle resources you used. Most of the time, this will need to be a personal judgment on your part, but in some situations the Circle may need a minimum amount of compensation.
Comments and Suggestions are Encouraged
Note of Credit - Much of the formatting is based on Gintigael Gemweaver's Ring of Iron Charter post, which in turn is based on the rings of Steel and Light Charters.
Read more: http://keepersofthecircle.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=earthinfo&actio n=display&thread=91#ixzz2JCM3a43A"
GM Elton wrote:
Sadly I wouldn't have got that message from what you said either. It's probably best to be honest and talk to them about it, respectfully and without beating around the bush.
@ mplindustries: It seems a little premature from the information we've been given to asume the player is a furry IMO.
Here’s a link to the Keeper of the Circle’s Chancery, where we welcome greet foreign envoys and such. Feel free to drop by and say hello.
@ Valandur: A simplified system of loot like you mention is probably better. On the other hand I think that having armies work in formation with no danger of losing loot is something I would rather not see. I hope that there would be at least one advantage for large scale combats to not use rigid formations. Better looting could be a benifit to more loosely bound formations/armies.
I think that even with a simplified war chest idea having a soldier break formation to head over to the vague war chest area to get better loot for themselves could work. I would imagine that in real world battle practices to prevent soldier looting are in place. I see it as a way to not have armies in tight formation get all rewards and no drawbacks.
I can understand not wanting to punish PCs for how they look, by tying their appearance to an ability score. On the other hand sometimes it would make sense for appearance to have an effect on some ability scores (I believe the MMOs ability score might be different from the table top version though).
For example my friends brought up that in the TT game appearances don't affect ability scores. A friend of mine immediately (as a joke) mentioned that his next character would be a morbidly obese Dex. 20 rogue. Waddling around everwhere out of breath to get people to lower thier guard, then BOOM backflipping, w. finessing ext... The DM who had strong simulationist tendencies was NOT AMUSED. ;P
I'm not sure having appearence not an effect in game could impede immersion, but might be better for the game overall.
Harad Navar wrote:
That could work. It would be cool if other PCs could disquise themselves like members of your factions camp followers and then walk off with a bunch of the loot for themselves. It would add more strategy to the game IMO.
In this case would the non formation players take potential loot from the war chests of the waring factions? I could imagine small stealth units from other parties swooping in to collect loot from the armies while they are required to stick to a formation/battle plan and ignore the loot and looters. It would add more room for tactics. Would the armies have their reserves fight of potential looters making them less available to support the front lines? It would be an interesting complication IMO.
As for you second point, I'm sure that would be a compication and not a trivial one either. I just think loot could be another complication, that wouldn't take up a lot of computer power to add to the game.
That system could be in place and probably could work. On the other hand even if it that's how they do things, there could be times where players could be tempted to take something rather than letting it be swept away to the war chest. The thing is, if formations are going to add substantial bonuses, there needs to be enough temptations/difficulties to overcome to get them IMO.
I wonder how loot will be handled in mass combat. If players suspect that an enemy has dropped good loot it would be tempting for the formation fighters to break rank and make a dash for it.
I seem to remember that there will be a certain amount of time before a body becomes lootable. If that's the case a formation may just be tempted to camp out and wait for the loot rather than doing it's objective (taking a hill or whatever).
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I agree with the thought of Pathfinder being a "team game". On the other hand, I've played with people who felt very strongly against that mindset. Several of these players prefered to view the game as a DM vs player match of wits. I never really understood this point of view, but they strongly believed it was the true way to play the game. Also these players often liked to make rogues and steal from fellow PCs directly of indirectly. Not saying one way is better, just that there are multiple ways to view and play Pathfinder.