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Captain Marsh's page

253 posts. 2 reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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First, I'd be firm. I'd say "Once you've made your case and I've ruled, it's over. Period." I'd also insist that he either engage the adventure in a reasonable way or role up a more appropriate PC.

Secondly, here's kind of a weird observation. When I used to game a lot with people who were deep friends, it was actually harder to make stuff like this work.

These days, I have really good pals who I play D&D/Pathfinder with, but we really only get together for the hobby. That's our connection.

It just makes it a lot easier. If this situation (OP)arose in my group I can just say to a player, "Look, what you're doing is making it unfun for me, so change up."

And they'll know that it has nothing to do with anything other than the game. Obviously, it's manageable when people have other connections, but it's more complicated.

But I would do your best to make sure that you know what's actually going on. Is it a gaming thing? Is it a something else thing? Is it maybe possible that the truth is that he doesn't really want to game anymore?

One other thing the OP highlights is the need to constantly constantly be recruiting and building your player pool. I live in a really small rural town in the middle of nowhere and we have between 5 and 8 players at our weekly games.

If someone started mucking up our games and was being a jerk and I couldn't fix it, I'd be able to disinvite them in a heartbeat and the game would go on.

And a final thought, slightly (but not completely) off topic.

In my games (the ones I GM) I've completely banned "bad" PC behavior toward the rest of the party. I don't care what your alignment is. I don't care how you describe your backstory.

I've just seen too many otherwise good games unravel when a player gets it into his head that in order to be true to his PC's nature he has to muck up the adventure or attack other PCs or whatever.

That stuff's no fun. And it doesn't just wreck adventures, it can wreck whole gaming groups.


I stand and use a DM screen. I like the privacy, the sense that it sort of establishes me in a slightly different place.

I also use it to hang initiative cards.

That said, I have two observations about Paizo's Pathfinder DM screen.

First, I'm ready for some new art. I was never really all that thrilled with the static "guys standing around" approach.

I kind of like screens that project the flavor and action of a good "D&D" adventure. (I really liked the Eberron screen...)

Second, I don't find myself using the info on the screen - like ever. I'm not sure what I'd want or need on there...


DaveMage -


I like your idea. And I have to say that I've run ST as close to "as-written" as anything off the shelf that I've ever GM'd. It's just that good.

But I think some stuff works better with some tweaking.

As written, for example, every entrance to Tsar itself is deadly and fascinating - except one. There's one path in where (if you don't muck around and wake a sleeping battle hulk) it's kind of wide open.

It's not even that close to Malerix's lair. A smart party scouting the walls would cruise right in, bypassing far too much goodness.

I just made it so that the battlehulk was awake and sort of prowling about conspicuously with a bunch of siege undead riding on top.

My guys can still choose which path to take, but there's not such an obvious that.

Also, I'll be honest, some of my futzing around is just that I kind of like to fiddle under the hood even with a super nice adventure.

But yeah, this one's a classic. I fully support the idea of not messing with it too much.

By the way, anyone reading this - Frog God Games currently has Slumbering Tsar on sale at a deep discount. It's worth $150 but if you can get it cheaper, do.


###SPOILERS #####

Greg -

I think what you're saying makes sense. But I think one useful addition to the final published version would have been an essay that kind of lays out the thread for GMs, maybe with some notes about where key NPCs, plot hinges, and encounters sit in the vast landscape (and the vast tome).

I don't think every GM would want to read it. A lot of folks want to do exactly what you're saying, reading the 900+pages closely, taking detailed notes about the various threads and convergences, picking out opportunities for foreshadowing and tension-building.

(My legal pads are full of flow charts about how I see the connections working -- no kidding)

There are also a lot of guys (and gals) who will want to rewire the fundamental arc of the story, home-brewing it to a certain extent.

But still I think one awesome additional appendix (maybe in the on-line/pdf version?) would be an essay where you give GMs the big picture, with pointers to the elements that I described above, and maybe your own designer vision of how this thing should play.

I'll be honest. I've pored through this thing a lot, but I'm guessing I'm still missing things/connections/opportunities for building the narrative that you cookied in here.

Thanks for the awesome adventure. Really. This one's a joy.


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I've posted a few times on the message boards about my experience running Greg Vaughan's Slumbering Tsar.

My gaming group reached kind of a milestone two weeks ago when we "finished" the portion of the adventure that deals with the wasteland -- the infamous Desolation -- that surrounds the ruined, haunted city of Tsar.

A couple of people I've messaged with have asked for thoughts about the adventure (and for campaign journals, which I don't have time to do...) so here goes.


First, a reminder of what Slumbering Tsar is. It's a massive campaign published by Frog God Games that takes PCs from 7th level to around 20th. My group is currently 9th and 10th level.

Including maps, handouts, appendices, etc. the whole thing runs about 950 pages. In the quality of writing and conceptualization, it's on par with Rise of the Rune Lords. In scale it's much longer, much more detailed.


Really, ST is everything you've heard about. It's just that good. It's the perfect marriage of an old-fashioned D&D grinder, with lots of combat and deadly challenges, but also tons of role-playing opportunities, fun and nuanced NPCs, and great color.

I've come to believe that Pathfinder is mostly about big moments. Yes, people want plot and danger and all the other stuff that makes up a story. But what sticks out at the gaming table are those epic moments, the near-death experiences, the moments of breakthrough, that perfectly timed crit-roll.

Vaughan spices those opportunities in regularly. The weird, lush haunted garden in the middle of the Desolation. The insane Apocalypse-now dwarves who are trying to survive in the midst of all the chaos and death. The strange ruined characters who haunt the Camp at the edge of the desolation.

It's a meat-grinder, but it's not just a meat-grinder.


That said, I did change quite a lot of small things in the adventure. ST is a 'sandbox' which means that it's possible for PCs to make a lot of their own decisions. That's good.

But it can also mean game sessions where everything the players encounter is far too deadly, or far too easy.

In particular, the rules of Pathfinder make it sort of complicated for a GM to deal with hordes of low-level enemies who, when played as Vaughan has written them, simply can't hurt your PCs.

Vaughan seems to love "Walking Dead" style undead surges. And those should be really cinematic and creepy. But in Pathfinder, for PCs at the level envisioned by ST, it's actually more of a nuisance after a while.

(Not always. It's a gas for players to occasionally get to buzz-saw through ranks of enemies, especially after one too many life-or-death battles...but that gets old pretty quick.)

So I rewrote more of those mob-scene encounters to include fewer minions and more slightly tougher and more menacing bosses.


The Desolation is basically four different Desolations. In his amazing imaginative deep-dive, Vaughan wasn't happy with one Ashen Waste or one Chaos Rift. He wanted to throw everything into one adventure, from bubbling tar pits to charnel valleys full of undead.

It's awesome and epic. My one suggestion is to read through everything carefully and start teasing out foreshadowing and plot elements that will keep players wanting to explore the whole thing.

The challenge here is to keep it fresh, to keep the motivation strong. I managed a good solid B on this front, I think, by developing a much stronger set of explanations for why the PCs are in the Desolation than the ones that Vaughan suggests.

I think GMs should really talk about this in advance with the players. Make sure they understand the scope of this adventure and the need to keep helping you find reasons that their characters would care enough to keep diving into this insane, deadly madness.


It's also important to move some things around in Slumbering Tsar. The really awesome troll brothers who should offer the introduction to the Chaos Rift are located on the map in a place where the PCs might never encounter them -- or might encounter them at the end of the adventure.

Also, the Boiling Lands offer, in many ways, the least deadly set of encounters -- and encounters which in many instances don't move the plot forward much. There are some great set pieces there, not to be missed. But find a way as a GM to get your players there early. And find some ways to tie it in more deeply to the adventure.

There are other little things that I felt were just weirdly placed or sort of tucked away in odd corners. Again, read carefully and see what elements you want to pull forward.


My next big point is power creep. ST as written was meant to be really, really deadly. That's part of the fun. There is a long section in the back of the book for PC obituaries. Sounds corny, but my players have had fun writing in the names of their characters when they died.

But the truth is that PF has seen so much power creep that a lot of ST isn't that menacing. Some of it still is. But as a game master, you should really think about pacing and maybe tweaking the CR of your threats.

The biggest problem I've found is that ST was written as an "attrition-economy" threat. That is, it's supposed to wear PCs down and make them really think about their choices.

But PF now has so many characters with so many renewable or permanent abilities that this just doesn't come into play so much. I find that with PCs of this level, basically all damage (including ability damage, diseases, etc.) will be cured or healed after every combat encounter.

So that part of the menace, the sense of being worn down, is a bit harder to create. I found that this was easy to remedy by turning a few of the 'wandering monster' encounters into more deliberate, structured clashes which I wrote.

I also used those opportunities to help move the plot along and develop more foreshadowing and a sense that the overall story was going someplace.


Which brings me to my final observation. In the end, ST actually has a pretty good story with a ton of amazing characters. But the truth is that a lot of it is pretty hidden.

This isn't unique to Vaughan's adventure. A lot of times in Adventure Paths or other big published campaigns, I find myself running NPCs who have huge back stories and really cool identities, which really the players have almost no way of knowing or interacting with.

The big bad guy (or woman) is dead before the PCs really grasped how big and bad he (or she) really was.

So my two-fold suggestion here is, first, read the whole adventure carefully. Mark out the big plot themes and the big, ominous NPCs and their schemes. Figure out how the threads knot together.

Start peppering those ideas into the players' experience early. Vaughan hints at some of this but more is needed. I'm not saying railroad PCs. But as written, it's possible for players to go a really long time without really grasping what's going on or what the danger is beyond the next encounter.

Some of this can happen in color. PCs can have haunted dreams or be visited by visions. You can use existing NPCs like the Peddler and the Usurer to drop hints about what's to come.

Secondly, I would suggest that GMs playing this huge tome be careful to...slow down. I found that at times I was sort of rushing players through different chapters, knowing that there was (and is) so much goodness to come.

And the truth is that my players have gotten kind of impatient. This story is, after all, about Slumbering Tsar, the haunted city. They've looked from afar on the Black Gates for months (in real time and in game time). They want to get in there.

Fair enough. But remember to treat each section of Tsar and each gaming session as a prime moment to explore really beautifully crafted chapters of a larger adventure. If you run this thing, remember that it's main strength is that it offers you a chance to create those incredible, memorable gaming moments.

I'll end with a little story from our last session.

My players ended their main sojourn in the Desolation by taking on the tar dragon Malerix. They lured him inside a ruined structure, hoping to trap him and limit his mobility -- which worked. It was great ploy and Malerix in his arrogance fell for it.

But they also set his tarry hide on fire, and it turned out he wasn't bothered at all by fire...which meant that 9 PCs (we had a big group that weekend) were trapped in a burning building with a writhing, vicious, deadly dragon.

Because they'd had glimpses of Malerix for months, and they knew that he was the last monster between themselves and the city, they stuck to the fight. It was one of those sessions that balanced perfectly on the edge of a TPK -- at various times three different PCs were below zero hit points -- but in the end everyone survived.

Next Saturday, they begin their assault on the city of Orcus itself, a well-earned next step. If the last year of gaming in Vaughan's campaign is any evidence, it should be epic.

--Captain Marsh

Buri -

Guilty as charged. I asked my question in all good faith, then got caught up in my argument. I really was curious about your perspective, so thanks for answering fully, despite my tone.

I will say that compared with a lot of folks in the RPG world, I'm not putting a ton of time into the game. I'm maybe just shifting more of my time away from stuff I used to do (creating worlds, cooking up adventures, grinding through stat blocks) and focusing it instead on this part.

Part of that is that I've become more and more comfortable running published adventures. I love home-grown campaigns and adventures, but this is one cool aspect of buying stuff - you can focus a bit more on getting ready for the performance at the table rather than all the writing.

(I do rewrite my purchased campaigns a lot -- even Slumbering Tsar, which is a masterpiece as written, was fun to homebrew a bit.)

One final-final thought: I've really come to love DMing. A couple of people have noted in this conversation that it's kind of a burden and 'taking a bullet for the team' to play from behind the screen. I hadn't thought of that.

That's maybe the most important thing that we should be talking about. As we try to make DMing better for PF players, how can we also make it funner and more rewarding for the DMs?


Buri -

Could you explain a little bit why you see DMing this way? I realize that I'm not quite getting it. (And your view isn't unique - others have expressed a similar view.) So help me get past these hurdles.

First look at our track record as a hobby. There are SO MANY mediocre DMs out there. I've gamed all over the world with dozens of DMs. Lovely people, earnest, trying really hard, eager to have fun and have a great experience, but generally just not at all versed in how to run a table. So...if it were "easy" why do things go bad so often?

Second, why would DMing be different than any other entertainment skill or art, where people learn their craft from others, often in a structured way, and then they go and express their own style? Why would learning your craft as a DM preclude inidivudal styles or expression?

Let me say that I think part of the problem here is that DMing has all too often been conflated with adventure design. Guys spend weeks creating an awesome adventure, full of really well designed encounters, detailed stat blocks, cool monsters. Then they spend very, very little time thinking about how to present this in colorful, dynamic, engaging, interactive ways.

They think, as you suggest, that that part of the gaming experience should be 'easy' or 'intuitive.' And when things go wrong, they blame the group dynamic or their players, or they just shrug and say, "That's what RPGs are sometimes like." And sure, sometimes that's true.

But since I've been actively trying to learn the craft in a more deliberate way (all the advice and suggestions above are awesome, btw), I've found that in many instances I'm far more able to salvage and improve my games. And I'm far more conscious of why games are going wrong when they do go wrong.

I'm not looking for ideal games. But if half of Pathfinder DMs could be better equipped with behind-the-screen skills, that would change and improve the gaming experience for a lot of the community.


Good discussion. A couple of thoughts and points.

First, I want to reiterate that I don't think teaching great DMing strategies in a more organized and systematic way is a path toward 'sameness' or 'uniformity' behind the DM screen.

People learn how to play guitar or how to play basketball or how to be an actor -- then they go and use that education to do their own thing. I'm sure the same thing would happen with DMs.

I think what I'm mostly grappling with is that a lot of people think DMing should be sort of intuitive.

Koloktroni gets at this a bit when he says, "The only thing you can do is be prepared, pay attention, learn how the game works and establish open communication with your players on what produces a fun time and what doesnt."

But that's not true, IMO. Great DMs do all of that, but they also use a lot of really cool strategies as entertainers, as story-tellers, as pace-builders.

Some use music, some use voices, some use visual aids (minis, art, etc.), some move around and act out events. Why do they make those choices? How do they decide when to linger over a role-playing encounter and when to rush things forward into a battle?

And it's also just not true IMO that DMs generally learn through osmosis. I've been gaming for 35 years with dozens of different DMs. Most of them didn't really think very much about what they were doing at the table.

(That's not a jab or a put-down. It's just a fact. They thought that once they'd learned the rules and made up the adventure, everybody would just sort of get through it together.)

My personal shift in attitude came about a year ago when two things happened. First, I saw a video of Chris Perkins DMing and I thought, 'He's doing something much more interesting than what I'm doing and I need to learn from him.' I also saw some of the better clips of the Dice Stormers and the techniques they were using.

I mean, taken to maybe a slightly silly extreme: Why aren't there three or four day DMing workshops around the country where gamers can go to really learn cool strategies for doing what the really great DMs are doing?

I can find a volleyball workshop or an acting workshop or a writing workshop. Why not a session for people who want to be great DMs?

There...enough pontificating.

Thanks for the conversation,



Maybe so. I'm open to the idea of a community effort.

On the other hand, if the folks at Paizo thought this through they might say, "Huh. We're trying to market a game that requires on a good table experience and word of mouth to build fan base and the primary portal for that is great DMing. We better help make sure we have awesome DMs out there."

They might then say, "Look, the truth is, we don't have the right people on staff right now to lead this effort. We need one person in our organized play department who is a) interested in elevating the art of DMing to a consistent good level, b) is a good teacher with a strong ability to use the message boards and other tools, and c) is a well-known talented DM with a reputation for wowing people at the table."

Seems like that would be a good hire to make.


Arturus -

Anyone thinking seriously about this would never suggest a 'one size fits all' approach to training, even for individual DMs. A good DM should have the capacity to adopt different styles depending on the adventure, the genre, the players at the table, etc.

And I'm going to stick to my guns on this: I don't believe the 'learning by osmosis" approach works very well. Too many of us "learn" to DM from fairly mediocre DMs, or by trying to figure it all out for ourselves.

A lot of guys I've played "under" don't even really realize that DMing is a kind of folk art form. They just think "I'll make up an adventure, we'll all gather around and I'll sort of run it." The results are are you would expect.

I also think it's worth examining in a fresh way why this very cool form of entertainment based on a vast network of entertainers (read: local DMs) doesn't have a better system for training and supporting them.

Translation: Why does Paizo spend a huge amount of time supporting and nurturing adventure designers, when what the game really needs isn't more great adventure writers (okay, that's cool, too) but more great DMs?

If we want to grow the game (and I do) we need more new players to sit down and have an awesome (or at least a really good) experience. That can't happen unless our DMs are a lot better than they are today.

And I'm criticizing myself here as much as anyone - so please don't take this as arrogance or lecturing.


Thanks, Thanael - will do. These resources are great. Keep them coming. Now we just need a way to disseminate them to average DMs who (in many cases) don't know that they exist or that they're needed.


No. I hadn't stumbled across those. I'll add them to my collection and look at them eagerly. And I'm sure that playing under/with really good DMs (whether at cons or in local games) is the absolute best way to learn.

But a lot of us don't get to conventions. Instead, frankly, we learn our chops on our own or under DMs who are frankly mediocre (not for lack of trying.)

Building on your comment, maybe a great way to think about this is:

How can we get DMs like me (I'm in rural northern New York but I've helped build a big gaming group of more than a dozen regular players) the kind of skills building that might be comparable to what they'd get at a convention?


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I DM'd the latest installment of my Slumbering Tsar campaign last Saturday and I found myself feeling sort of bummed that it didn't go super well. I mean, it was fine. But this was the big, climactic battle against Malerix outside the Black Gate. It should have been awesome. And it wasn't.

I mention this because the last two years, I've really been trying to get better. Not just better table prep and more conscious, fun-focused DMing. I've actually been scouring the web, looking for advice columns, Youtube videos and other resources.

I've actually gone back and read the "How to DM" sections in all my old rule books. What gems did I miss while rushing through to the "must know" stuff, while assuming that I had the "soft skills" of DMing down pat and just needed to know the rules before building my next adventure?

And all of that stuff helped. But I have to say, I still feel like the state of the art of DMing and the system for training and educating new (and improving DMs) around the world is still remarkably primitive, or at least underdeveloped.

The bottom line is that you can have the best rule system, the most awesome setting, a brilliantly designed adventure (thanks, Greg Vaughan) and a group of willing, engaged players -- but if your DM is muddled or lackluster or just plain unskilled, it's all going to fall flat.

A lot has been written recently about the need to recruit and retain more players. New boxed sets are produced. Comic books are issued. On-line versions of games are experimented with. But it seems to me that, unless I'm missing something, the most obvious next step is being ignored.

If Paizo wants Pathfinder to be THE premier fantasy RPG on the market, it needs to have the best stable of DMs. These gals and guys would be the evangelizers for the game all over the world. As much as people are drawn to the system and the adventures produced by Paizo, they would be drawn to the local, grassroots entertainers (dungeon masters) cultivated with help from the company.

In this comment I don't want to try to specify how a campaign like this should work or what specific skills and concepts it should try to impart. But I will say that the precedents exist already for this kind of global campaign to improve the game.

By using some of the ideas buried in organized play systems and in the Superstar design competition, you could develop a truly awesome, fun and constructively competitive approach to having DMs at various levels sharing their best ideas for how to run a table.

Just by searching around the web, I've found clues and tips and strategies that have made my games 20% better. I bet with a more structured approach, Paizo could boost the overall standards of DMing in the PF community by a bigger margin.

Especially if you structured the program for different levels of experience -- one section for starting DMs, another for veterans trying to freshen their approach -- I think there'd be a lot of buy-in.

The bottom line is that DMing is a blast and a really vital part of gaming, but it's also far less easy and intuitive than a lot of people think. A lot of tables are winding up with a sub-par experience because this one pivotal player in our shared experience just hasn't been exposed to the best ideas and resources.

I think Paizo should spend some of its growing gaming heft to change that.

--Captain Marsh

Blackwaltzomega -

You call it nostalgia, I call it different taste. I'm not a power gamer, and I get most of my at-table satisfaction from strategic play and role-playing rather than maximized PCs. I've always had a ton of fun and managed to be very effective playing exactly the PC classes that people tend to condemn on the message boards.

What's more, as a DM, I never, ever have problems with fighters or rogues or monks finding ways to contribute meaningfully to the story, the adventure or to the combats. It has literally never happened in one of my games that the casters took over the story and eclipsed everybody else.

What HAS happened at my table is that OP'd builds have messed up party balance dramatically...and bizarro options that I hadn't anticipated have messed up the flavor of the adventures.

That's fixable - it's not the end of the world.

But I'm not exaggerating or fudging when I say that the abstract, numeric DPR-type powergaming analysis of PC builds that you describe has never been an issue at my table, while the brokenness issue of complex power builds has been repeatedly.


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Sorry to spam, but one last thought: One of the things I love about core Pathfinder is that every build had significant strengths and weaknesses, at least at early and mid levels.

These days, power gamers can optimize PCs in ways that they're often pretty flawless. The contrast between these designs and the more average, common, "I made up a character" has grown dramatically.

Bluntly, it's much more common now to have one player show up with a 1st level VW bug and another player show up with a 1st level porsche. Neither player has cheated and neither player has done anything blatantly stupid.

It's just that players who really scrutinize the growing number of books can mix and match in ways that are dramatically superior. In my gaming group, this divergence in character-creation experience has become a significant issue.


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I think it's fair to say that DMs need to exercise far more control over Pathfinder now than they did five years ago. It's kind of a dramatic change.

You can't take a light touch unless you want an anything goes, post-genre, super-hero-fantasy-sci-fi-lovecraftian-power-skewed pot of weirdness. Which can be fun, but let's be honest, it's kind of a mess.

And I think by basically saying that all of that stuff fits into Golarion, Paizo has encouraged the sense that PF is verging more toward a kind of GURPS-like game where DMs (hopefully in collaboration with their players) need put bright lines around what's in and what's out.

I think Paizo is kind of acknowledging this by introducing some stripped down versions of the game that harken back to a more straight fantasy, early edition feel. I don't think any of this is necessarily bad, but it does require some reasonably sophisticated editorial decision-making on the part of gaming groups which (in many instances) just don't know the game well enough or don't know genre fiction well enough to think all that through.

Throw on top of that complexity the weird power spikes of some PC classes and abilities and I think PF has become a significantly more meta-complicated system.

To be clear, this is my primary game system and I love it (I also DM a bit of Numenera and a bit of Traveller). But despite my long experience as a DM, the increasing everything-ness of PF has caught me off guard in big ways a few times and forced me to really negotiate delicately with some players. Sometimes this has been a power-gaming issue, sometimes a narrative/texture/doesn't really fit the story issue.

All of this is made even more complex by the healthy but muddled ecology of 3rd party publishers. Some of that stuff is really, really good, but it can also blow the bottom out from under your game.

Finally, I do think it is fun to occasionally force players to get creative and interesting within tighter boundaries. Show me an interesting PC that you've made out of the core book, with cool color and personality traits -- not always relying on the crutch of some arcane feat or weird power-boost combo.

The last couple of years I've seen more and more PCs at my table that look and feel more like video game builds and less like, you know, characters.

I don't think any of this argues for not churning out more books and options. But I do think Paizo is wise to keep creating islands of (relative) simplicity and genre-sanity. I have a feeling that this new 'against the giants' adventure path will serve as a tentpole for that kind of 'give us some old-school D&D' crowd.


I don't play PFS. But I think I am going to use this Core Campaign idea to roll back my game to a simpler place.

Then, going forward, I'm going to require that players essentially ask permission for all non-core elements they want to introduce, from spells to classes to feats.

Keeps the idea of lots of options being available, but on a more "this is a special thing to add in" basis, rather than an "everything goes" basis.

We'll see how it goes...


One thing I'm a little unclear about is why folks think that PF without a map is so completely free-form. I still keep notes (and a mental map) of where people are in space and I communicate that regularly to players.

If a rogue said, "I flank," I'd either say, "You can see that a five foot step isn't enough to position you for a flank" or "Great, you slide sideways into position and strike."

If a guy says, "I charge and attack" I say, "You'll pass close enough to two other orcs that they might be able to strike you. Also, the ground is broken cobblestone and rubble, so you can get there but it's not a charge."

I find that if I have a mental moment and forget some important detail, my players are cheerful about reminding me. ("Wait, didn't you say that those orcs had moved off to the side to take cover behind the statue?")


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I ran several long and more or less successful campaigns using maps and minis. But I struggled at times with various logistical issues and I often felt that the games were reduced to something far closer to a board game.

Recently, I've been running a Slumbering Tsar campaign (using the Pathfinder rules) and I've done it mostly without minis or detailed maps. It felt far more creative, flexible, narrative, and (frankly) big and dramatic.

Interestingly, I had one big set-piece battle in mind (a zombie horde battle) where I thought minis would enhance the experience and give a sense of claustrophobia and overwhelming numbers. I was wrong. It felt mechanical and sort of toy-y.

One of the biggest problems, I find, is that minis make it far harder for a DM to (for this DM, at least) to do cinematic acceleration. When doing a narrative PF adventure, I can dilate the time and events, even in a battle, in ways that enhance the adventure.

I can, for example, simply narrate with a few sentences all the things that a bunch of NPCs are doing off to the side. "Off to the east, you see Argos beset by at least a dozen zombies, one of them clinging to his armored back, while an undead troll lumbers forward."

But with minis, it feels far more necessary to follow the mechanics. (I still accelerated some, but I found my players sort of watching as I shifted minis around and asking, "Wait, what just happened there?")

None of this is a firm "No" to minis. I still plan to use them in some instances and as my mood shifts and as the tastes of my player group evolves...but I do think it's a good idea for DMs to regularly experiment with both options and see what's working and what's not.

And I guess I have to admit, looking back on some of those past campaigns, I find that I have a mental picture of lots of tiny plastic figures, rather than a mental picture of an army of stone giants advancing on a town wall...


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Here's how I handled the motivation thing - I recount this just for fun, not because it's particularly great.

My ST campaign began in Bard's Gate with the party being exiled for one full year to the Camp for various petty crimes, social offenses, etc.

According to tradition, those exiled to the Camp are part of the New Army of Light. Anyone who behaves in particularly good ways, helping advance the interests of Bard's Gate, gets time off for good behavior.

That was the initial motivation. Kill some bad guys, get home sooner.

But in truth, this ritual of exile has been going on for decades and no one takes it very seriously. Few of the exiles ever return. And the folks of Bard's Gate mostly don't take the Desolation as a grave menace.

It's a threat, but a minor concern, and also a useful foil for the elites of the city when they want to raise taxes or blame an outside enemy for Bard's Gates' troubles.

The wrinkle, of course, is that this particular New Army of Light discovers that something has begun to stir in the Desolation. It's not just a sullen badland. Something new and menacing is brewing.

So my PCs have slowly transitioned from being exiles to being partially assimilated into Bard's Gate's growing military and espionage build-up against the Desolation. They, of course, grasp more viscerally than the city's nobles just how big and ugly the threat is.

With that much meta-plot, my players have totally embraced the motivation. They still have tons of sand-boxy flexibility.

Now when they're, say, rescuing members of the lost Bard's Gate caravan, it's not just for gold -- it's because the members of that caravan almost certainly know something more about the Orcus cult's growing conspiracy.

One thing that I plan to add is a section of urban adventure/intrigue back in Bard's Gate as the PCs struggle against the machinations of the nobility who are bungling their response to Orcus's menace so badly.

I think this will be a good counterpoint to the Desolation story, and it will help my PCs catch up a bit in level. (Their progression has been pretty slow so far...after ten sessions, they're mostly 8th level, with some verging on 9th level...)


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Reacting to various ideas here:

Distance: I'm with Majuba about making the squares a mile rather than 2,000 feet in Slumbering Tsar. Frankly, the Desolation just seemed too small to me. I wanted the party to have a sense of crossing a pretty big expanse.

The Usurer: My party is increasingly comfortable with the idea that the Usurer is a tenuous ally, especially now that they killed King Kroma for him. In my campaign, the adventurers' campaign is set against a slow military build-up in the Camp, as Bard's Gate prepares for a more traditional (and almost certainly ill-fated) incursion into the Desolation. Set against that naive political ambition, the Usurer seems to them like a realist and a survivor.

One note about the Chaos Rift: This is probably standard for a lot of DMs, but I moved the rock troll brothers and their elevator to a much more logical and accessible location near the main road. It's such a great encounter, a logical gateway to that section of the adventure -- and as positioned it's just too easy for PCs to miss, or to come to far too late to make much sense.

I'm enjoying everybody's stories and getting good ideas for our campaign...


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Couple of additional notes following my group's latest session this past week:

First, the group I'm playing with is being really cool about essentially negotiating meta-problems. The new magic item restrictions - people got that.

I also have one way over-powered PC. When I raised it with the player as an issue, he was incredibly cool about it. He's working to downscale some of the build that included crazy 3rd part publishing stuff.

I mention this because I do think Slumbering Tsar is the kind of adventure where you want players who know how to collaborate at the table. I feel lucky to have a group like that.

Second, I want to mention that while Slumbering Tsar can be grindy and needs the kind of GM involvement that Greg talks about, the writing and NPC character development is so strong that it really does ease a ton of that.

My group just entered the Chaos Rift and their encounter with Otis and Lortis was really a highlight of the game. I role-played those guys to the hilt and my players kept asking me, "Is all that in there?" -- meaning in the book-as-written.

And I was like, yeah, it really is. The scene of them being lowered down into darkness on the log lift, and then the lift creaking away upward and leaving them down there.

There are so many great scenes like that -- not all combat-oriented -- that it really does sustain...

I'm getting the feedback about using minis later. Thanks for that advice. I'll definitely try another battle-map structured session once we get into the dungeons.


This is going to be a bit of a weird response, given some of the framing of this, but I want to suggest that people read the R. Scott Bakker cycle "Prince of Nothing" cycle.

Bakker's work has gotten pretty unfair treatment in places for being misogynistic - a claim that I find preposterous. Bakker's novels are complex, adult, and occasionally very, very dark.

These are not YA books. And they describe a society which is roughly on par, I would say, with the Near East in the 9th or 10th century. Women are not equal, their lives are often brutal and terrifying.

But the women in his novels are also the most complete, complex, dynamic female characters I've ever encountered in fantasy fiction, with the possible exception of Ursula LeGuin's stories. They are powerful, intensely driven, ambitious, flawed.

If, on the other hand, what you want is a fictional fantasy narrative where women are equal in what we might think of as a modern sense - don't go near this series. Really. Some of what happens to Bakker's female characters is stark and even disturbing (though never gratuitous).

But the same is also true of many of the men in Bakker's cycle. There is, for example, a fascinating juxtaposition of two of the main characters, a female courtesan and a male wizard. Both, by the lights of their society, are 'damned' and live largely as tolerated outcasts - useful and necessary but loathed.

Finally, I would say that Bakker's fantasy cycle is one of the only works in the genre that treats honestly the racism, discomfort with women, and aversion to sexuality that runs through much of our genre. Bakker sort of drags that stuff out into the open and wrestles with it in really interesting ways.

So again -- not a read for that afternoon when you're wanting your woman wizard to be the butt-kicker in the story...but really worth picking up.

Now, about magic items. The truth is that I'm not much of a rules lawyer. I'm a good solid Pathfinder-familiar DM.

But I don't know the fine print and I don't keep current with what's broken or grievously overpowered the way some DMs have time to do.

So I did the same thing you did initially - allowing PCs to create magic items as per the core rulebooks as written.

About three sessions ago, I called a halt to that. I basically made it clear that any magic item creation needed in-game roleplaying.

I think this is more a commentary on a broken set of rules in PF than on the specific issues of Slumbtering Tsar, but I agree it's something to watch out for.

Now that that's fixed, the ecology of loot inside the adventure is working okay because the players are spending so much money on resurrection spells...

We'll see if that stays on track...and I hope we can keep our group together long enough to finish this. 2 1/2 years - that's awesome.


Thanks for these reviews. Very interesting and obviously worth considering as these DMs are further along the narrative than my group.

I think I agree with everything here - I'm already boosting the plot elements and imagine I'll do more of that as things go along. I think the raw material is in place to make that feel doable.

I also quite agree about throwing Orcus into the mix at the end. I understand why Vaughan didn't. That's Rappan Athuk's climax, if I'm not mistaken.

But I'm just not going to run this AND R-A, so I think I'll probably import him.

I use the random encounters thing just enough to give it the first edition feel and to give a sense that the party is always in peril AND to give a sense that ruckuses in the Desolation tend to attract attention.

More on magic items in my next comment...


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The gaming group I'm part of is about ten four-hour sessions into the Slumbering Tsar mega-campaign from Frog God games. This is, I think, the largest single adventure/campaign ever written, and when it arrives in the mail it looks like a brilliant behemoth of highly detailed encounters, amazing NPCs, weird cool ideas, etc.

So how does it actually play? Well, broadly speaking, amazingly well. It's famously sand-boxy, meaning PCs explore, encounter, stumble into encounters, and have to be really flexible to stay alive. That means running away sometimes. That means character death is a reality. If your players aren't into dying sometimes and rolling up new PCs, this isn't for you.

But my players have really committed to the sense that this is an apocalyptic place where things can go really wrong fast. (Three of five PCs died in our last game and while there was a bit of TPK shellshock at the table, guys were really cool about it.) They love the deviant plot ideas that Greg Vaughan cooked up. Basically, I've never had characters get so deeply invested in a campaign.

This is also an awesome opportunity for players to do a bit of power-gaming. DMs should exercise some caution about this (more on this note later) but with some caveats, and some cautions about way over-powered third-party publishers material, Slumbering Tsar is a great place to battle-test awesome PC builds.

It's also truly epic in length. After roughly forty hours of play, the party has explored perhaps 1/20th of the death zone that Vaughan created, and hasn't even dared to go near the actual city of Tsar that lies at the heart of darkness.

That said, here are some thoughts about things I had to sort out at my game table.

First, the 'sand box' ideal only takes a story so far. After allowing my players to drift and explore a bit, I found that it was necessary to introduce a kind of meta-plot that would pull them forward. They still get to make all the decisions, and can chase squirrels whenever they want. But in my DMing experience, players will eventually need some motivation to keep going.

This turned out to be fairly easy to fix. I pulled forward some of the NPCs and gave them a stronger tie to Orcus's larger conspiracy -- and, frankly, I made it clear much earlier in the adventure that there is indeed a scheme by Orcus underway. Not that all the denizens of the adventure are there's still just a lot of random weirdness.

The second thing I needed to do was keep refreshing the Camp. This jumping-off point for the adventure and home base is a really iconic setting with colorful, ominous NPCs and a kind of cool ecology of stuff going on. But that gets disrupted pretty quickly as the PCs move in. So I found that I needed to cook up new weird NPCs and new weird denizens that could keep it fresh. This was fun, pretty easy...I mention it only because it's one of the few "must-do" fixes I've found.

Thirdly, the power creep in Pathfinder has somewhat surpassed Slumbering Tsar's infamous lethality. So I've had to carefully, subtly boost the adventure's risk factors. I've also tweaked encounters where Vaughan has created enemies that almost literally can't touch the PCs because of an unbalanced attack-vs.-armor class situation.

I think this largely reflects a new reality in Pathfinder. One BBEG and a lot of super-weak minions just isn't much challenge. Instead, you need a BBEG with a handful of reasonably powerful minions to make an interesting encounter.

I've also somewhat slowed level-advancement progression, using various means, to keep the PCs from outpacing the story's dangers. All in all, the power balance stuff is easily handled.

Finally, a very personal opinion. This is the first adventure I've run in the post 3.0 D&D/Pathfinder era where I felt like miniatures actually got in the way.

Vaughan's encounters and settings are so cinematic, so varied and cool and (sometimes) complex that I just feel like the mechanical fixity of little tabletop figures get in the way and sort of reduces the epic-ness.

Obviously, this is extremely subjective. Some DMs will have a ton of fun creating some of these magnificent set-piece encounters (dwarven patriots battling desperately against waves of undead, mutated spiders swarming up out of a crevasse in the earth).

But I'd at least urge you to experiment with it both ways, trying out your minis, but also trying some sessions without them.

Above all else, I'd encourage you to get this book. It's pricey. But if nothing else, it's an encyclopedic collection of encounters, new monsters, awesomely detailed NPCs and captivating one-off adventures that could drop into any world, any adventure. Played as structured, there is a vast saga here for players to act out and attempt to survive.


Hi folks.

I'm running a part of the Slumbering Tsar campaign tomorrow and in theory it looks epic. This is a chapter where the PCs make a desperate stand on a hill top with a gang of dwarven adventurers, facing wave after wave of undead.

Eventually, things get really sticky - more powerful undead, and a fairly lethal big bad evil guy to top it all off. But the part I'm a little uncertain about is how to run the horde portion and have it feel claustrophobic and desperate and panicked.

My specific problems are these:

1. How do I handle what will eventually be roughly 100 NPCs at the same time (including the dwarven 'good guys') without the whole mess bogging down? I'm looking for really cool, cinematic ideas that will make this really elevate. (We are using minis for this episode, btw...)

2. What do I do about the fact that my PCs have really high ACs? I mean, the truth is that the vast majority of these undead hordes are basically almost certain not to hit except on nat-20s. I've thought about having them essentially do grapple checks, trying to overwhelm the party. But most of the PCs also have high CMD...

I want this to feel more like Walking Dead, not like swatting mosquitoes...any ideas appreciated.


I don't have time to read the entire thread, so apologies if some of this is redundant.

One of the things that's interesting about this conversation is that for about 300 years, most "scientists" didn't see science and magic as incompatible.

The vast majority of the very best mathematicians, geologists, physicists, chemists, astronomers, etc., were deeply convinced that magic was real and would eventually be proved compatible with the techniques of the scientific method.

As late as the 1800s, some of the most influential researchers - men working on things like evolution and early plate tectonics -- still espoused essentially magical ideas about cosmology.

Earlier figures including Copernicus, John Dee and Isaac Newton were all deeply embroiled in the latest scientific advances of their day, and doing some fine work, while also spending vast amounts of time on what amounted to sorcery or astrological magic.

(Dee and Newton are extreme cases, but they're far from unique...)

A lot of this doesn't fit very neatly into the various fantasy worlds of the D&D canon, though "new" classes like the alchemist and the gunslinger actually work pretty well in a Tudor-Elizabethan themed adventure.

Finally, I've always been pretty impatient with the whole idea that 'science that's advanced enough will look like magic.' I think this is patently silly.

Once a civilization has grasped the mid-to-late-modern concept that phenomena have natural and explainable causes, the best minds generally stop saying, "That looks like magic."

Instead, they say, "That is a thing I can't explain yet, but we're working on it and we'll figure it out."


And thanks also to Hawkmoon...appreciate the info.

Sara Marie - I am so pleased. Thank you. I love your company and look forward to shopping with you guys again.


I love the Alien narrative and I wanted (wanted, wanted) to love this movie. I've seen it three times. I've seen the video that tries to rationalize its gapingly painful plot holes. Sorry, but it was a bust. One of the bigger let-downs in sci fi movie history. I'm eager for P2, but actually am sort of hoping for a complete re-boot. Make a coherent, single movie with a beginning, a middle, an end and believable, reasonably motivated characters. Do NOT have fraidy-cat idiotic laurel-hardy scientists wandering around lost who SUDDENLY get all dewy eyed about alien serpents that look like vicious cobras...ugh.


Dear Paizo,

You guys are my favorite hobby company in the world, which is saying a lot for a lifelong nerd like myself. Love your games, love your community, love your writers and artists.

But unless you give me a better explanation for why your customer service is so terrible, I will never, ever order directly from your store again.

I ordered a $150 book 3 weeks ago. Shipping was supposed to happen within two weeks, which is already a ridiculously sloppy amount of time for any company in the age of Amazon.

Then, today, I get an email which says that my order has finally been "processed and finalized for shipment." Great. Really slow, but great.

But then I read that the package is "expected to ship from the Paizo warehouse by Friday, November 21 via Standard Postal Delivery, estimated 4 to 8 business days in transit."

November 21st? WTF? If the thing is process and finalized, put it in the $%*$# mail! At this rate, I will have been waiting for my purchase for as much as six weeks.

And that "expected to ship" part REALLY ticks me off. Expected? your warehouse in Sandpoint or something?

The kicker to the email is that there is no explanation for the delay, no apology -- only a note that my order can "no longer be altered."

On this message board I see a lot of other complaints about slow and sloppy shipping practices.

Maybe it's time for a quick public note about what's going on? The holidays are coming up. If you want people shopping from Paizo, you need to fix this and do some communication.

--Angry Marsh

Hi Sara Marie -

We're now nearing the three week mark and this order 3329153 apparently hasn't shipped. Can you give me a bit more specifics than it's 'awaiting its turn to get into the shipping queue"?

I have to say that in the world of Amazon, allowing two weeks for an order to ship without explanation seems kind of...outdated. (Is this something unique to the gaming hobby?)

Three weeks is really pushing the envelope.

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I think Pathfinder has actually achieved a critical mass of rules where some serious level of selective editing is needed adventure to adventure.

I'm attempting a game right now where almost everything is allowed and while we're having a lot of fun, it's a bit of a mess rules- and mood-wise.

As written, Pathfinder is now an all-things-to-all-people rule-set, with everything from laser guns to ancient priests to gunslingers to World War I soldiers.

So...if you're going for a specific genre or feel, you'll probably have to draw some clear lines around what's in and what's out. Is it still, at the end of the day, Pathfinder? Sure.

Even Paizo has said, while introducing science fiction and World War I era elements into some of their APs, "We won't use or allow this stuff very often in our stories going forward, but it's fun occasionally..." (I'm paraphrasing...)

So, I'd say at this point rules-modding isn't controversial -- it's essential to the system.


I ordered a Slumbering Tsar and we're nearing the two week mark and it looks like the book hasn't shipped yet. Is there a way to nudge it forward?

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Seems to me that saying you like "Pathfinder" is kind of a moving target. The game is evolving all the time. New rules, new player options, new everything.


So after being deeply intrigued by Numenera as a game system and a world concept, I've had the opportunity to GM three sessions so far.

A lot went right. The games were fun, intriguing, and the new mechanics re-energized me and my players. I think the game is really, really interesting.

But because Numenera is so ambitious, and represents a significant work by one of the RPG world's great designers, Monte Cook, I think it warrants serious critical response as well.

I took a stab at this once before, but now I know the game a lot better and have really tested it.

Cook is clearly being really ambitious here. In the best spirit of that effort, I want to hold him to those standards.

I think the game's shortcomings fall into three broad categories: serious DM challenges, the lack of weirdness in the 9th World, and really quite dull published adventures.


Numenera envisions a situation where DMs will use dice-prompts and a system of traded experience points to insert provocative and creative events into the narrative.

It's a really cool idea. Particularly when players roll a natural 1 or a natural 20, the DM is encouraged to add an "intrusion" that expands the drama and boosts the narrative.

The problem is that this kind of improvisation is really hard to do in real-time. I've tried it and I've watched others try it on the growing number of Numenera Youtube and podcast play sessions available.

Sometimes the outcome is really dynamic. But when you add a jazz-improvisation element like this, you are raising the bar dramatically for DMs. I think Cook should develop some better systems to help us make that work -- quickly.

He's already offering a random "Cypher" deck and an "XP" deck. I think the game actually NEEDS the equivalent of an "Intrusion" deck. This is something the DM would draw from, consult, and then adapt to the circumstances of the game.

Sometimes a DM will be able to wing it without this kind of support. But as a relatively experienced DM, I often found myself struggling to make magic happen on the fly...and I don't think I'm alone.


This is a tough thing because true weirdness is incredibly difficult to achieve in narrative without also killing the forward motion of the story.

But far, far too much of Numenera is, well, profoundly scrutable. It reflects current sensibilities, and even a sort of vaguely retro vibe about "cool, strange technology."

A lot of that is fine. We want robots and nano-particles and so on in Numenera. But this world is supposed to be set a BILLION years in the future.

There should be at least a few elements in the game that really make you blink and say "What the hell?" Maybe even some "Call of Cthulhu" like elements where PCs are just hopelessly outmatched or baffled.

Far too many of Numenera's monsters are basically, in the final equation, a ghost or a vampire or a zombie or a dinosaur explained in a different way. As structured, there's a risk that the weirdest elements that are outlined in Numenera will essentially be background to a conventional plot.

I found myself struggling against this a bit and would urge DMs to really find ways to keep pulling as much weirdness as possible into the heart of each play session.


This is my biggest concern. I think Monte Cook is amazing as a game designer and a setting creator. Even the shortcomings of the 9th World setting, as I see them, are shortcomings related to a very high bar or standard.

But I also think Cook has a fairly spotty record as an adventure designer.

Years ago, I bought Cook's Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and remember thinking, "This is kind of a mess." (I don't own Ptolus, so I can't comment on whether the adventures contained there are as great as the setting...)

I think the same can be said for the first several published adventures in Numenera. They're not terrible. But the Beale of Boregal, Seedship, and the Vortex are fairly predictable and static.

I don't think they come anywhere close to capturing the spirit of what Numenera could be.

The Devil's Spine was better, but still not a story arc that made me think, "Yes -- this is what this game was meant to do."

And that's a problem. For a game as ambitious as Numenera, and as focused on narrative, Cook needs to drive interest and capture loyalty with some absolutely kick-ass, "we'll remember this ten years from now" adventures.

Those early markers could really define whether the game lives up to its potential and builds a community.

I think Paizo did this effectively with Rise of the Runelords, in particular. They proved tangibly, with a big collection of linked stories, that the Pathfinder engine and the Golarion setting could take us to some amazing places.

I guess I want to see that soon from Monte Cook. I know that he's already moved on to working on a related game -- The Strange.

But as a huge fan of Numenera, I hope his team will have enough backward focus to craft at least one really big adventure that takes this game out for a drive -- a story we'll all be adding to our list of top gaming memories.

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Hi folks -

A couple of thoughts.

First, yes - I could have "my" version of PF by "slicing away" stuff I don't like. The same can be said for people who want sci-fi or Egypt or guns or psionics or epic level play. Anyone can home-mod anything.

I want a variant that Paizo brings to the entire gaming community that makes us all cross-compatible. I like the idea of a store or a DM or a convention saying, "Come play PF. We'll be using the Lite-Narrative rules at some tables, we'll be playing card games at some tables and we'll be using the Core Rules at most tables."

Second, the problem isn't that Pathfinder has grown to have a big math component. This isn't eggheads vs. math-illiterates. The problem is that the math (and the endless book referencing) is slowing down the action to a near-crawl that a lot of us are really chafing at.

The latest Adventure Path basically demands that you have a couple of additional books (or PDFs) open at all times to explain what a crapload of new material does. Check out how many superscript letters pointing to various books there are in any given stat block.

Want an illustration of how this looks in real-time?

I just watched a video of some really great gamers (Dice Stormers - check them out) play through one room in ROTRL where they took down a handful of goblins, including Rip Nugget. With four players and a DM it took 30 minutes to get through a few fairly unexciting rounds of play with low level characters. And before you dismiss them as inexperienced or as having bad table discipline, watch their video on Youtube. It really is worth thinking about -- check out all that book juggling on the part of a really experienced DM. I've been there.

Finally, it's worth pointing out that Paizo will now be competing with at least one extremely well marketed and distributed game (D&D 5) that has the potential to be more streamlined, more narrative, more intuitive and less crunchy than full-iteration PF.

(I'm not sure Numenera will ever achieve wide enough distribution to be a meaningful competitor.)'s just true that gaming climate has now changed. We're not in the 4.0 era anymore when WOTC had basically left the field to Paizo. Going forward, it's not a terrible idea from a community OR a business perspective for Paizo to have a variant product that competes with that kind of product.


Odraude -

That wasn't the original all. That's nonsense.

My original post was totally respectful of PF in its current form, with its current 'everything and the kitchen sink' design.

(I do point to the tendency of games to grow top heavy over time, but that's a legitimate, time-tested concern...)

I know a lot of people like the current approach. Here's a quote from my OP:

I don't want people to think that I'm hostile to products like the Advanced Class Guide.

They're not to my taste. But I know there are a lot of great DMs and super-fun players who completely love that stuff and will never get enough feats and spells and class abilities and races -- that's cool.

So here's my question to folks who are being so adamantly negative about this.

If Pathfinder can have every single conceivable game-experience option -- psionics, mythic level play, outer space rules, rules for WWI, Asian themed play, on and on -- why not a compatible system that is more streamlined?

Again, I'm not talking about a rejection of PF.

I'm talking about one more option for those of us who want to stay in the Paizo-Golarion-AP-gaming community.

If the company can do card games and video games and on and on in the Pathfinder universe, why not also produce and sell a balanced 'rules light' variant?

I could easily see my game group shifting back and forth, depending on the tone of the adventure and the particular Adventure Path.


Right. I don't see pitchforks. And I don't mind people disagreeing with me. I actually like conversation.

I DO grumble about the folks on the messageboard who like to tell other folks not to post opinions...which happens a lot.

Usually it's just the 'we've heard it all before' thing. Which is fine.

But this is actually a thread where if it keeps recurring...maybe that means something.

And again, I'm eager to try Pathfinder Unchained. Maybe Paizo already has exactly the thing I want and I just missed it.


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Sorry everyone - yes. 10 New classes. My mistake.

Most of the responses here make sense and fall into the "I like Pathfinder the way it is, thank you very much."

Which is great. I probably would have made the same argument last year.

And it may be that this is how the game world will shake out, with some of us gravitating toward more rules-light/story heavy games.

But again, I don't want to gravitate away. I love Paizo and yes, actually, I do want my playstyle to be catered to. (Duh.)

I'll check out Pathfinder Unchained -- first I've heard of it. Thanks.

Finally, to folks here who reiterate the old "I've heard this thread before so shut up" argument or the old "quite whining about your playstyle not being catered to" saw, I say - pft.

If I had a quarter for every person on this message board who told me to shut up...

Bottom line?

This is my message board as much as yours, and Paizo is my gaming source and my addiction as much as yours.

They deserve to hear my (hopefully positive, constructive) feedback as much as yours.

And if I'm repeating a concern raised before, even better.


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After quite a few years of happily playing in Paizo's awesome sandbox -- a huge fan of Pathfinder, Adventure Paths, and Golarion -- I suddenly realized this summer that I'm ready for a big change.

Paizo, I think, has followed the same company arc that we've seen so many RPG brands navigate. They started by publishing a great rule system and a great setting.

Then, to keep the cash flow going (which is a good thing, not a bad thing) and because they are creative people, they've elaborated upon that rule system to the point of near exhaustion.

The latest book offering TWENTY new core classes? That pretty much stopped me in my tracks. As a DM, my table and my game group were already creaking under too many options, too many complex mechanics.

I would prepare a story, or gear up to run one of Paizo's adventures, and I never knew what circus menagerie was going to wind up in the party of PCs.

I'm a decent DM. I know the core rules really well. But I was always one step behind my players when it comes to how all their powers and abilities work.

Meanwhile, to heighten my desire for something different, Numenera and D&D 5.0 arrived in the gaming world, both with far more math-and-fine-print light, far more story-heavy architectures.

I ran a Numenera game last weekend and I have to say, it was a liberation. Preparation was easy and focused almost entirely on story, not stat blocks. Battles took a quarter the time to run and were far more fun and dynamic and cinematic.

Players, meanwhile, had a ton of fun making up PCs using a far simpler, more story-based series of templates. Half the crunch and still far more unique. My sense of D&D 5.0 is that it moves in the same direction.

So why not just switch? Why not jump ship if I want something a little different? (A lot of you are probably already typing a reply telling me to get the hell out of the sandbox...)

The truth is that I want to stay with Paizo and Pathfinder, for much the same reason that I stayed with Pathfinder as 3.0 and 3.5 were dying out.

I like the continuity. I like having all my old adventures and campaigns still be somewhat forward engineer-able.

I'm also absolutely convinced that Paizo will continue to be the best adventure-writing company in the gaming world. I want to run their Adventure Paths.

So, as regular loyal customer, here's what I want from Paizo:

I want them to earn their next pile of bucks by producing a streamlined, narrative-rich version of Pathfinder.

Not just a "beginner's box," but an actual parallel rule structure that exists comfortably side-by-side with the more byzantine version of Pathfinder that's come into existence.

I get that one way to "solve" this is by simply banning (at my table) a lot of the material published after the Pathfinder core rulebooks were released.

But I bet there's a more exciting way for the game gurus at Paizo to do this -- one that would be a profitable way for Paizo to compete with and match the new innovations coming from Wizards and Monte Cook.

This next part is important: I don't want people to think that I'm hostile to products like the Advanced Class Guide.

They're not to my taste. But I know there are a lot of great DMs and super-fun players who completely love that stuff and will never get enough feats and spells and class abilities and races -- that's cool.

But I think Paizo can do that stuff and offer a kind of alternate, streamlined cross-compatible system.'s my memo to Paizo: Put that version of Pathfinder in a hard-back book with a lot of fun art and charge $50 for it...and I'll be your first customer.

Captain Marsh

I'm probably late to the party, but I urge any Pathfinder or tabletop RPGer to check out the DiceStormer Youtube channel.

These guys are modeling some awesome game-table strategies, they're offering fun snapshots of some of the adventure paths, and it's an entertaining way to get a fix of a great Pathfinder session when you can't drop dice yourself.

I've picked up some cool tips for running games from these guys and it's helped me preview some of the published adventures.

-Captain Marsh


Yeah, I disagree. I'm not suggesting that I design encounters blindly. Of course I layer in effects designed to prevent thinks like the proverbial 1 BBEG easy topple encounter.

And when I play with a skilled, power-gamey group, I tweak the CR level upward and add in additional challenges (more three dimensional conflict spaces, etc.)

But once I think about the rules and fold in things that have an internal logic and consistency, I get absolutely no fun from blonking an encounter with big cheats on my side.

I also like being surprised by my players. Unlike some DMs, I require rule-loyal PCs, but I don't do pre-audits.

But I don't think even with your philosophical approach, this spell. works. Your assessment of it just strikes me as weird.

Consider this factual description.

1. It's a never-ending ammo clip. 2. It's apparently a silent supernatural ability and can be thrown without cluing enemies that the PC is in fact a spellcaster. 3. It's not subject to counterspells. 4. It doesn't trigger an AOO. 5. It's not limited by Hit Dice, unlike its Sleep counterpart. 6. It's a SOD spell that will always scale relatively high on its Will save. 7. There is a significant list of VERY powerful monsters, high CR, that are highly vulnerable to this spell. 8. The 30' foot automatic hit range increment is actually very generous, compared to comparably powerful spells that require either a touch or ranged touch attack.

That's a pretty long list of boffo attributes for one magical effect which CAN BE GAINED AT FIRST LEVEL.

Bottom line? That's just not the same as buffing a barb or using a clever area of effect spell.


have you ever actually DM'd a game where this power was used?


DRS3 -

I do think one place where we really part ways is that I like rules that allow me to create a world and a table experience where a party has a balanced chance to win.

Where the world 'exists,' in other worlds, and where so long as I balance it properly and get the CR more or less right, the powers and abilities of the players will give them a competitive but risky shot at surviving and prospering.

I don't EVER design my adventures to favor (or thwart) particular classes or abilities that I know my players bring to the table. I create fun, balanced, complicated encounters, that are geared to particular CR levels.

(Sometimes I will say, in advance, this is a campaign where you'll need a cleric, or a front-line fighter, or a rogue.)

In this case, PCs were going into funky, complex terrains, battling interesting mixes of monsters where some dramatic things were possible.

Rather than doing interesting things, or coming up with fun, cinematic solutions, this one unbalanced power just twigged the encounters. Period.

It wasn't fun, it wasn't exciting, it wasn't clever. (It was, however, perfectly legal, and I felt creepy about saying, "Dude, I know that's your superpower, but it's killing the night...")

A question: Do you guys who are panning the idea that hex slumber is broken think there are any broken, overpowered spells and powers in PF?

Or do you think once it's published, it's canon and we should all just sort of live with it?


So first...I really hate the tone of the response. The "shut up and sit down" quality of the message boards here is sometimes really a drag.'s my argument, in all civility...

A) I'm not missing your points, I just disagree, and I think my argument is better. I have DM'd Pathfinder since its release and have DM'd D&D in all of it iterations. In every case, there have been unbalanced spells and powers that needed to be mopped up after release.

It doesn't help to just say "broken stuff happens" and the game sometimes doesn't work and isn't fun. What makes the game better is to provide feedback and player experiences from actual game-play so that the rules can be tweaked.

B) If you've never had spellcasters use single-target effects at early stages of combat and battles, then I'm baffled by what game you're playing.

C) The Save or Die thing is in fact a perennial problem in Pathfinder and d20/3.0/3.5, one we've all struggled with for years. In this case, Slumber, it's a SOD power that can be used with no Vancian limitations and no limit on Hit Dice power for the target.

So when you combine those factors - SOD, infinite uses, no HD limits -- it's worth revisiting.

D) It's noteworthy that Sleep, a limited use spell, HAS a HD limitation. And casting Sleep triggers an AOO, while Slumber hex does not. So...why would the rules take a really balanced spell and suddenly make it completely unfettered like that?

E) Two thirds of monster types in the game are NOT immune to this hex. In fact, a lot of fairly tough CR6-10 creatures are REALLY vulnterable to this spell, with a 50% chance or greater of falling to it.

And if you happen on a given night to be running a dungeon that is flatly vulnerable to a broken spell like this (raiding a place with human villains, or orcs, or whatever...) you're just toast.

It's not enough to say that maybe you'll get lucky and design a dungeon or adventure where a broken spell isn't as broken...and it's not my style to design dungeons that specifically thwart PCs power.

F) The crappy hostility suggesting that if I find a spell broken I must be "dumb" enough to have created a bad encounter is just mean. Quit that stuff. In fact NONE of the encounters that were wrecked by this spell involved a single BBEG...not one.

FWIW, the encounter that was most completely disrupted involved eight bugbears (including a ringleader), a dire bar, a girallon, and a giant stag beetle.



I love the fluidity of Pathfinder, I love the complex interplay of powers, I love that surprising things happen.

But when Paizo discovers that they've mucked up and unbalanced a particular power -- and this one is -- they should do something about it.

It's a standard part of game design. Design, playtest, publish, then correct.

This thing is wildly overpowered with infinite uses per game. Not at all comparable to buffing a fighter.

Torbyne -

I think ANY power that has the ability to single-shot drop an enemy, no matter how many HD they have, should at the very least have a limited number of uses per day. Whether that's slumber or whatever.

It's not that this player was able to use this cool, awesome power that cheezed me - it was actually kind of amazing and dramtic.

It was that he could (and did) basically do it EVERY TIME. In sheer fun gaming terms, that's boring and undramatic and uncreative.


Just ran a dungeon crawl and the Slumber Hex really botched my game. A player used it completely legally and legitimately, and as a result one cool encounter after another was reduced to "I put him to sleep and the rogue kills him."

When I asked how many times a day he could uncork that thing - still feeling pretty cheerful about things, assuming he was making balanced choices about his spell economy - he said it was infinite-use.

I sort of choked. This thing, which works against creatures of any HD, is RIDICULOUS. Paizo should errata it down in power asap.

-Captain Marsh

Sorry for dropping out of the discussion. I was away traveling without my computer.

Some good ideas here. I'll check some of them out. I did buy and run Numenera. I have mixed feelings about it, but will likely DM it again.

Regarding the 3pp suggestions, I will give them more of a try. Of course that's a great option.

But I still aim my main nudge at Paizo. For the moment, they're carrying the banner, and doing it really well. I want that to continue.


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