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Feiya

Caineach's page

RPG Superstar 2013 Star Voter. Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber. 4,760 posts (4,765 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Irontruth wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Cornel West Arrested in Ferguson
I really don't see how a guy going out to get arrested at a protest getting arrested is news.
I'm kind of curious exactly what about this situation you think isn't news worthy.

You have hundreds or thousands of protesters, most of whom are peaceful and not violating the law. One (or I believe a total of 17 IIRC) guy desides to go out and intentionally violate the law so he gets arrested. The story there isn't the handfull of asshats who don't matter in the grand scheme of things getting themselves arrested, it is in the hundreds of peacefully protesting people. The fact that one of these people is well known for getting arrested doesn't matter.


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Muad'Dib wrote:
Alex Martin wrote:


The problem is the level of sincerity and viability in its application to this case. To simply add a minority or minority team for the sake of inclusion smacks of financial political correctness and lack of artistic integrity.

If your central argument is that you question Marvel's sincerity then Alex you need to prove that they are being insincere.

Marvel has more female writers and practice more diverse hiring then they ever have. To me this shows a concerted effort to make their product more diverse without resorting to tokenism.

He provided a list of examples from previous times they have done similar things and said they are probably doing the same thing. What other evidence could he possibly supply to back up his point that would be more credible?


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Irontruth wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:

I'm generally the odd one out that says diversity is overrated and claiming a need for it should be considered offensive.

Seriously, lets look at this statement some more.

That is hatred. It might be unintended hatred, but it is hatred none the less. Being opposed to diversity is being opposed to people who are different. That's all sorts of bad "isms".

It doesn't matter who is making a call for diversity, they're in a minority or a majority. In fact, people in the majority have a responsibility to make those calls, because it means we recognize that there are problems and they need to be corrected.

And yes, I do shut down. I don't apologize for it. I don't care what arguments people have to back up hatred. It's still hatred.

I hate reporting this stuff, because that just white-washes the issue and makes it seem to disappear, on both sides. People sit in their little bubbles and assume that they're right.

People pointing out patterns of racism/sexism/etc is not offensive. Anyone making such a claim is at worst unknowningly supporting said racism/sexism/etc.

Please counter this and tell my why black people shouldn't be allowed in comics.

And this is why people get turned off by social justice.


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We are also arguing that when the dominant character traits when discussing a character are ethnic or gender based, the character is probably going to suck.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:


(Also, my point isn't that fusion can't provide those things or isn't a good way to provide those things, or wouldn't be orders of magnitude cheaper than conventional alternatives. Just that I was objecting to the way the original article present them as things that would somehow be magically unlocked by having the ability to generate electricity from fusion.)
But I think it's fair to say that they would be magically unlocked by a truck-scale power plant. I don't think it's necessarily the fusion that would be magic (although I don't see how you'd get the necessary power density out of genetically engineered hamsters), but the idea of running the whole damn village off something parked in Abd'Allah's garage.

Actually looking into power generation, I'm finding 100mw generators that appear to be roughly the same size. I think the bigger thing here is actually the fuel distribution network. Comes preloaded with a year of fuel is a big deal compared to trying to constantly ship in coal or oil.


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GregH wrote:
Caineach wrote:
A much better article on it
Its behind a paywall...

It is? I wonder if my work just auto-logs in.


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A much better article on it


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KarlBob wrote:
Okay, if we're gonna play Social Science Study Bingo, here's the first thing I found with the keywords "study percentage female gamers". Study: More women than teenage boys are gamers Washington Post, August 22, 2014. Most relevant paragraph:
Gail Sullivan wrote:
Men still make up 52 percent of the game-playing population, but women, now 48 percent of the gaming population compared with just 40 percent in 2010, are closing in. The rising popularity of mobile gaming is one reason why.

Which study did they use? In fact, "The rising popularity of mobile gaming is one reason why." supports my claim. Most people within the gaming community, and many people outside of it, do not consider those people gamers IME. A problem is the term is being used by different groups to mean different things.


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Xeen wrote:
Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:
Like dudebro, who even is this "the man" whose fault it isn't?

Like no way girl, no u dittent!!

Seriously though, you know what I was saying.

Most of those games are targeted at men, because most gamers are men. As I said, I think its nonsense. Its all about money just like most comercials on TV are about a woman telling a man what to do, or a woman telling another woman what to do, or a woman talking about how great something is. That target audience is women for a reason.

All about the cash and who it flows from. Nothing else matters.

I do applaud GW for not falling into that. (in this case)

Actually, I think besides being awesome people who like to see things like good representation in gaming, they also recognized that they have a niche product and a large part of their target audience is in a counterculture that supports these types of things, so it also makes sense financially.

When you aren't trying to appeal to mainstream with the core of your product, you have more freedom to try to court non-mainstream people with other aspects of it.


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Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:
Xeen wrote:
Most of those games are targeted at men, because most gamers are men.

And THAT sentence is PURE sexism.

Now get me on this, you personally are not trying to be prejudiced against women. But you ARE receiving that idea directly from sexism and reinforcing sexism by expressing that gender-assumption as fact. The difference between personal prejudice (the "I have a friend" defense) and systemic sexism is the the major thing that many, many people don't get when talking about equality.

The fact is 40-50% of gamers are girls and women, and it's easy to assume more would be if they had a safe and accepting place to be a gamer with real products built for them (not a bow and lipstick slapped onto regular Pac-Man).

Xeen wrote:
All about the cash and who it flows from. Nothing else matters.
You're also touching on the chicken:egg issue in gaming and entertainment more broadly. Are women not interested in gaming because their ovaries said so, or are they not interested in games built specifically to be looked at by stereotypical hyper-masculine-emulating dudes?

And the fact is that the studies that reflect more than 40% gamers to be female use different definitions of gamer than most people within the gamer community. For instance, playing 10 minutes of candy crush a week constitutes people as a gamer by some of the studies. Men are significantly more likely to play more than 20 hours of video games a week, on the order of about 4 to 1. They make up about 60% of gamers who play between 5 and 20 hours. There are enough women in the category of less than 5 hours a week in some of the studies to skew the gender ratio in favor of women despite very few people in that group self-identifying as a gamer.

As a side note, I have heard females currently make up more than 50% of active WoW accounts.


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I would be willing to bet that the first 8.5 pages of that is a standard form letter with fill in the blanks. Nothing about this seems out of the ordinary.


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LazarX wrote:
thejeff wrote:

While the term was coined for Difference Engine, it doesn't limit the genre quite that much. Modern steampunk is more about the trappings, the retro-tech, than it's about analytical engines and the manipulation of society with information.

If you stuck with that, there would really only be a few works of steampunk and we'd need another name for the rest.:).
Which I've already supplied. :)

It is not uncommon for early works in a field, or the works that coin a term, to not fit into what that term eventually means.

Sherlock Holmes is a good example. It is generally credited with inventing the Mystery genre, but by modern standards would not fit in. It doesn't really follow any of the conventions that make up the genre. - most notably by the fact that the reader is not given critical information to be able to solve the mystery before the big reveal.


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Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

What you are talking about is bad science. But that is in no way a sole feature of steampunk. A classic example for me was in The Matrix, where humans were supposedly used as batteries to fuel the evil supercomputer through body heat. That was such garbage. The amount of energy that needed to be expended to feed the humans would be less - much less - than that generated by their body heat. The supercomputer would have been better off, y'know, with a normal battery (and it would still have to charge it). And that certainly affected my interest in the story once this Big Reveal was made in the film.

But I don't think quoting examples of shoddy understanding of some basic physics invalidates the steampunk genre. There's good and bad steampunk. I think you are mistaking crap writing for a feature of the genre. Instead, I suggest you consider reading some of the good stuff (well, better, anyway).

Original idea was that they were wired together and used as a giant supercomputer, but that got thrown out because most of the audience wouldn't understand it when it came out.


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:

Depending on the timeline, I suppose The Defenders might be changing that.

Plus, I was looking forward to more Cap and Bucky.

Word on the Defenders! I can see them shacked up in Strange's weird mansion, like the New Avengers hid during Civil War! :)

Also, I fully expect Bucky to show up again... either in his own movie, series or throughout various Marvel movies.

Isn't he signed on for 4 more movies?


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Arnwyn wrote:

1. I see the CW is continuing with its fine tradition of having at least one female character (in this case Iris) be a complete idiot, annoying, useless in almost every way, and an actual detriment to the quality of the show. She hurts the show in every scene she's in.

2. I also see that the CW continues to like to have emotion and irrationality rule their arguments/disagreements, instead of of normal rational behavior:

The CW (wrong) way: "You're not my dad! You're not the boss of me!"

The rational (right) way: "You know, I think it's probably a good idea if I really do save a little 9 year old girl from horribly dying in flames. Do you actually disagree with that?"

Obviously you don't understand people.

People aren't rational.


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Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Cornel West Arrested in Ferguson

I really don't see how a guy going out to get arrested at a protest getting arrested is news.


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I was getting the drug dealer no longer living in the house baby getting flashbanged story confused with the no drugs ever in the house cops shoot guy through the wall. In the later story cops used a tip from the guy who stole their car to get the warrant.

These swat team assaults on innocents are hard to keep straight.


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Rynjin wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Do you mean the incompetence of raiding a house when you have no idea of who or what is in there?

This was a SWAT team. They work with the information they are given. SWAT teams are not meant to investigate, that's what the regular police force is for.

I mean, I know it's hip and edgy to hate the police and all, but please.

Now, we can go into how the regular police force dropped the ball here by not confirming any info, but these particular officers hold no blame here, as everyone seems to assume they do.

The SWAT team, made up of 6 or 7 officers (the department wont say exactly how many) from the local sheriff and police departments. Apparently getting assigned to a special team means you get to ignore the rest of your duties as an officer.

Not to mention other articles say the person they were looking for no longer lived in the home


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Rynjin wrote:
I like how everyone is blaming the police instead of the scumbag methheads using their child's playpen to barricade the door.

You mean the children's playpen that was looking out the window (crazy place for it, I know) of the family where no drugs were found?


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Former prosecutor describes grand juries.
Basically, there are 2 types of grand juries. Fergie described one kind. The other kind is what is being used here.


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thejeff wrote:

The discussion's moved on (and exploded) while I was away, but I'll add a couple of points back towards the start.

When I said the "reality of the day" I wasn't talking about when you (or I) were nerds in school, whenever that was, but back to the earliest roots of computer gaming. Back to that ad for the arcade game with the model in the transparent dress and back beyond that to the first hackers writing games on the old time share machines.
Women weren't involved back then to any noticeable degree, not because women just didn't happen to be interested in computer games, but because there was tremendous social pressure against women in any kind of hard science, including computers. This was back in the very early days of second wave feminism. I would hope that even those who deny sexism today will admit it existed back then.

For your response to the second point: it doesn't really matter whether I think it's a correct reaction or not. It's going to happen. Women are coming into gaming culture and gaming culture is going to change. You can fight back, but it can't be stopped, short of changes in the status of women in the outside world.

This isn't true. Like comics, women were actively involved at the beginning and then left. Look at 70s art and advertising instead of 80s. It was the 80s where gender stereotypes started being used. I suspect it was a large part of the cultural shift that encompassed a lot of other things too.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:

*selfbackpat*

yeah, we're so cool.

Especially me.

Anyways, my opinion on inclusiveness in media is that it's "amoral", so I guess that's fair. I think it's good and adds a lot of flavor, but I don't automatically assume immorality when there's a movie like Frozen with almost all white people.

Though I do think it's something of a shame that they used so many great elements of Sami culture and still went with an all-white cast. Still, it was a nice touch. And kids' animation overall has a kinda complicated history on non-white or female leads, Not just Disney—Pixar and Dreamworks are also big offenders. In fact, you could argue Disney is one of the best thanks to its very frequent female leads, while Dreamworks only has a few, like "Monsters Vs. Aliens" and the upcoming "Home".

I'm really looking forward to Moana, by the way. Polynesian princess who sails the sea and goes up against gods and is a kickass navigator? HELL YEAH.

Similarly, we have The Last Airbender movie (that I know many of you would like to forget). The source material is highly influenced and stylized by different Asian cultures, but for the casting call they specified everyone had to be white, except for the villains, who are all middle eastern.

Edit to clarify - this is an example of them doing something bad, whitewashing.


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An interesting poll. Particularly pages 35-37.

Do you consider yourself to be a feminist:
25% yes 75% no

Do you consider feminist an insult:
14% No, 26% Yes, 60% neutral

One dictionary definition of a feminist is someone who believes in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes. As you think about that definition, do you
think of yourself as a feminist or not?
60% yes 40% no

The survey I found linked to from this Huffington Post article on feminism.


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Albatoonoe wrote:
That's not what I was getting at, Kobold. "Gay" and "Homosexual" are both different words that homosexuals use. That are actual words to describe this. Social Justice Warrior is a term invented to entirely undermine a good thing. It has no basis in anything. It has no good connotation. If you are going to have a good discourse, ditch the word and say things that are actually descriptive of things. Hell, "the other side of the issue" would be better and more descriptive.

SJW is a term I have heard many progressives use to describe rabid members of their own community. I have even heard people self-identify that way. I encountered it first used by someone using it to positively describe themselves.


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Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
"Privilege" and "Social Justice Warriors" are both negative terms, and both sometimes valid, real, and easy to overlook. I don't see any meaningful difference.

To make them truly equivalent, you'd need to change the latter to be "overenthusiastic advocate of social justice" I think.

But as time wears on, "privilege" is acquiring more and more baggage which threatens its very usefulness.

Privilege started with the baggage. People who have never heard the term start hostile to it.

Personally, I think there is a really simple line between social justice advocates and social justice warriors. If your rhetoric actively turns moderates away from your cause, your a warrior.

Pretty much every person below 25 I have met who actively advocates for a cause goes through a phase of SJW. Most of them grow out of it.


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Simon Legrande wrote:
Caineach wrote:

As to whether or not this is good for the industry - I would argue that it isn't good for either books or television.

Between GRRM and Firefly, I have mostly given up on consuming media unless it is finished. In fact, a growing group of people now binge watch tv, which ish why Netflix stopped trying to slowly release its series in favor of releasing them all at once after examining user data. I bet you can look at finished series and see significant upticks in sales when they are done. There is a reason they package completed series together to buy all at once.

This to me says that people are less likely to consume small doses, like the first book in a series. That will mean poor sales/ratings, and a feedback loop of people not willing to trust a project will be completed.

The only problem is, there still has to be a one or two book/show introduction to get people interested. It costs a lot more money to put out an entire series that nobody reads/watches than it does to start with an introduction.

In general, I agree with your point though.

Yeah. And since enough things have started violating the social contract to finish what they start, people are getting fed up. People don't like becoming emotionally invested in things that end up being disappointments. Which is one reason why violating the social contract is a bad thing in this regard. When energetic fans are defeatist about the long term prospects of your project before it even begins, you have a problem.


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As to whether or not this is good for the industry - I would argue that it isn't good for either books or television.

Between GRRM and Firefly, I have mostly given up on consuming media unless it is finished. In fact, a growing group of people now binge watch tv, which is why Netflix stopped trying to slowly release its series in favor of releasing them all at once after examining user data. I bet you can look at finished series and see significant upticks in sales when they are done. There is a reason they package completed series together to buy all at once.

This to me says that people are less likely to consume small doses, like the first book in a series. That will mean poor sales/ratings, and a feedback loop of people not willing to trust a project will be completed.


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Damon Griffin wrote:

Although I am watching and very much enjoying Games of Thrones on HBO, I haven't read any of Martin's books and don't know that I will. I'll have to consider other authors and what, if anything, they "owe" me.

I feel that if an author begins a multi-book story, he does owe his readers a conclusion. Based on the TV show and what Martin has apparently told its producers about future plot development, it sounds like it is meant to be one epic story rather than just a series novels that share a universe and some characters. I'd say Martin absolutely owes his readers a conclusion to that story, given the millions of dollars generated off their investment in it. [Sadly for fans] he isn't obliged to complete it by any particular date, but he needn't be an ass about it.

Jim Butcher may have a grand metaplot in mind for his Harry Dresden books, but that series doesn't depend on one. Despite excellent character development, it's largely episodic. He could stop at any time and not be in violation of any perceived contract with the reader. That's my rational brain speaking. My irrational brain says he owes me complete focus on the Dresden series, forgetting about his other projects, because I don't read any of those.

I consider Laurell K. Hamilton to have been in contract violation with me for a number of years now, because of a major change in the focus of the Anita Blake series of books. The first several involved Blake as a supernatural investigator. She raised zombies for a living, killed vampires when necessary, and consulted with local cops on the supernatural. As the series "progressed" (if you can call this progress) it became less and less about Blake's zombie/vampire/consulting work, more and more about how many different sexual partners she could juggle per day. That's not the character I signed up for, nor the character originally presented. Hamilton turned "my" urban supernatural series into silly kink-porn. I don't appreciate the drawn out bait-and-switch.

Regarding Jim Butcher - I would have agreed with you up until a certain point. Now though, he has introduced too many continuous plots over time where the informal contract grew. If he stopped after a few books, I would have been fine. The threads hadn't been woven together yet. So for me, I guess it has a lot to do with how many and what type of unresolved things there are left in the story.


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Aranna wrote:

But the real question is are the people who have to pay for that pay increase cool with it? Because the middle class are the ones we should ask if this is ok. They are the ones who will pay higher prices without an increase in wages.

Being solidly middle class and not dependent on minimum wage at all, I would vote for a hike every time. So would the majority of Americans for that matter.


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Readerbreeder wrote:
Calex wrote:
On a related note...

That's a good point, actually. To draw a sports analogy, Major League Baseball was racially integrated in 1947 with Jackie Robinson, and players come from the ends of the earth now, but to this day they're having trouble getting minorities in "management" positions (manager, general manager, director of baseball operations, etc.).

I was just reading this article that has some interesting things to say in the 2nd half about converting players to DMs. WotC (and TSR before them) has relied far too much on "word of mouth" to do that. That goes double for female GM's. If only a small percentage of RPGers are GMs, and only a small percentage of RPGers are female, some simple math should tell you that the intersection of those two sets is ridiculously small. If we want more female players, it stands to reason that more female GMs is a step in the right direction, GMs being the ones who usually proselytize the games, organize groups, and so on.

I would love playing in a game headed by a female GM, but I haven't had the good fortune to come across one yet. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places.

Thinking about it, I have been in a number of games and know a lot more that are at least 50% female, but can only think of 2 female I know who have GMed, and have not played with either.


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Simon Legrande wrote:
Sebastrd wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
I only played Minecraft briefly when it first came out on Xbox, but I found the lack of story led to boredom, despite having complete creative freedom and ultimately the ability to build whatever the heck I wanted.
I felt the same way. My children, however, play it like electronic Legos. They'll spend hours creating some pretty cool and incredible (for their ages) stuff. It massively encourages and inspires their creativity. It is literally the best "kid" game I've ever seen.
Exactly. My kids get on together and can spend a couple hours goofing off and building random junk. My son built a chicken ranch once and spent all his time capturing chickens. I tried it, lasted about 15 minutes.

I enjoyed the game for a number of months after I joined a friend's server and built a few monuments there. I drifted away when the world started expanding to a point where everyone was so far away from eachother that we all had our own thing no one else ever saw. The community projects were the most fun. I cannot get into single player mode at all.


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I would like to point out the Seoni is a power fantasy for many women. In fact, every female roleplayer I have shown the book to has had a noticeably favorable reaction to her, to the point of 2 of them saying almost instantaneously "ooh I want to play her". None of the other iconics have had such a strong positive reaction.


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Orthos wrote:

Long story short, IMO at least, Pacific Rim is one of those movies that gets less fun the more you know about how certain things work in real life, unless you're the kind of person who can turn off that "work brain" part of your analytic psyche when it comes time for entertainment.

If MST3K/Rifftrax'ing it up is the way you get the best fun out of it, by all means, have at it.

Just don't be a douche and do so in the theatre, though.

Having watched it with a group of mechanical engineers and physics majors, I can say that it is most likely you. Tons of technically minded people have no issue with giant robots killing giant monsters. The movie did not pretend it was about anything else.


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John Oliver on Scottish independence


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Popehat is a blog I enjoy by a lawyer who does a lot of free speech advocacy.


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To chime in on Green Lantern - I felt it was a disappointing movie, but not a bad one. Everything about it felt consistently average. It was enjoyable enough, but the whole time I felt like it could be so much more. It was more not living up to expectations than actively being bad. Most of the Thor movies have felt the same way, but Loki is awesome as a villain. The Green Lantern villain was pretty bad. And in a lot of ways, the villain makes the hero.

Ghost Rider 2 was actively bad (except for Idris Elba. He was the one good thing.)


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Orthos wrote:

I have high hopes, but I also loved Codex Alera as much as Dresden. So I haven't been let down yet, which makes me more optimistic about Cinder Spires.

I'm the same way with Brandon Sanderson - I've loved every book he's put out, so I rarely get the feeling of impending disappointment with his stuff.

I enjoyed Codex Allera and thought it was as well written as most of the Dresden Files, but since it was a fantasy story the fact that he reused so many common tropes took away from it for me. He uses just as many in Dresden Files, but I'm less familiar with noir or mystery tropes, so they are less noticeable.


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SeeDarkly_X wrote:
(Regarding Ang Lee vs Ed Norton Hulk's: it's interesting to note that as critically panned as Lee's non-MCU Hulk was, Incredible only made $1.5 million more than it domestically. That's not a huge margin.)

After the first one was so bad, releasing a new one so close will kill the second one's sales.


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I do like big stompy robots.


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

by the way, when is the next Marvel movie?

edit: sounds like avengers 2 - see link below, which also reveals that they are working on a Black Panther movie

Joss Whedon’s The Avengers: Age of Ultron (May 1, 2015), Captain America 3 (May 6, 2016) and James Gunn’s Guardians of the Galaxy 2 (July 28, 2017).

black panther movie

There's rumors that Doc Strange will be in 2016 as well, but nothing official. To be honest only one Marvel movie in 2015 bums me out! we have been spoiled with at least 2 or 3 Marvel movies a year lately! :)

Ant Man is in mid July


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Some 2D animators, mostly from Disney, are putting together a short, Hullabaloo. The steampunk art looks fantastic.


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Alex Martin wrote:

I think it's interesting how Roy and company have now reached the point where NPC's are considering them to be the big "hero" types.

I know it's been a long run to get there, but having spent so much time having the OOTS get kicked around/ordered around/outgunned it seems curious to see them be looked at in such a way.

To me, the whole airship sequence has become a character building and storyline reset. Not complaining, after the extended Tarquin sequence, I can see it being helpful in setting the next leg of the story. I could see getting an Elan/Haley or Varsuvius vignette before this is done as well.

Well, it is the start of a new book.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I don't see how that works. More teen female readers means more adult female readers. That said, my main experience is talking to a teen writer I know, soooo...

With regards to teen fiction, just off the top of my head: Inception, Hunger Games, Twilight—basically, only fantasy and sci-fi are "safe". ;P

I think its because female teen fiction is newer, mostly within the last 10 years or so. So if your talking about new fiction I would be more inclined to agree with you.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

*Throws away thirty pages of Gender/Sex paleshipfic* :(

But hey, actually, I do have something to say here. Like I mentioned earlier, "boys don't read". So I actually think it's more likely guys have more trouble finding characters to relate to—in books—than girls do.

Just saying that because "straight white male" is a popular buzzword. Written fiction is one of the few places it's "straight white female". :P

I suspect that is true in teen fiction, but I find that hard to believe elsewhere from my personal experience.

edit: wait, I forgot romance novels.


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thejeff wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Yeah, it is pretty crazy there are people arguing that Larry is bigoted for saying that.

That's because some of us don't think that's all he's saying. Though it's kind of hard to get through all the stuff about there being only 2 biological sexes (which pretty much misses the entire point, even though it's true. Because gender<>sex)

He's writing an attack piece on a post which absolutely doesn't say "Write lousy token characters" and the only thing he has to say is "Don't write lousy token characters"?

To steal from Jim Hine's take on it, because he's a professional and says it better than I can.

Quote:

I … actually, I pretty much agree with him here. People read for story, not for checklists or quotas or lectures. I see nothing in MacFarlane’s article to suggest she believes any differently. Calling for authors to be more thoughtful about their craft doesn’t mean you’re telling authors to abandon story for MESSAGE.

But you know, readers also tend to enjoy stories where they can find characters like themselves. Which is easy if you’re a straight white dude, and gets progressively more difficult the further you stray from that default. Maybe if we want to write enjoyable stories, we should try looking beyond the same old default that’s been done again and again throughout the history of the genre.

Yeah, I read that failed attempt at a fisking already. It agrees with every important point of Correia, but still somehow tries to say he is wrong. Not to mention it makes assertions about Correia's stance and writing that are incorrect.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
JurgenV wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
HerosBackpack wrote:

I look around me and see at least 5 genders, right here in the present world. That's my world, the one I live in. I'd like to have the same chance of seeing all of those genders just having a great story to tell. Without it being hyperfocused on the gender. "This is Danny, he's bashing orcs with a greatsword." "This is Alex, zie's shooting the orcs with a longbow." "This is Qatz, they're guarding Danny's back as he fights."

Even Paizo, inclusive as they are, doesn't really have much that represents me. I like that they are inclusive, but I'd like to see NPCs and characters like me too....

At a certain point, one has to accept that certain aspects of one's own character put them in so small (and so poorly understood) a niche that representing those certain traits or characteristics in something like a Pathfinder iconic simply isn't feasible. I'm all for Paizo introducing characters that make it clear that there is no stigma attached to one's sexual orientation, but the sexuality/gender/identity spectra are so diverse and so (to be frank) poorly organized in terms of vocabulary and consistency (try getting a room full of genderqueer people to agree on a set of neutral-gendered pronouns like zie/zir) that going for even finer granularity isn't something I see happening in the near future.
Did you know there is a transgendered iconic? She is awesome.
Well written and in no way a token character.

And that is why Paizo can get away with including characters like her. They treat her well, don't harp on the subject of her being transgender, and they focus on making her awesome. It takes skill to make characters like her.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Scott Betts wrote:
HerosBackpack wrote:

I look around me and see at least 5 genders, right here in the present world. That's my world, the one I live in. I'd like to have the same chance of seeing all of those genders just having a great story to tell. Without it being hyperfocused on the gender. "This is Danny, he's bashing orcs with a greatsword." "This is Alex, zie's shooting the orcs with a longbow." "This is Qatz, they're guarding Danny's back as he fights."

Even Paizo, inclusive as they are, doesn't really have much that represents me. I like that they are inclusive, but I'd like to see NPCs and characters like me too....

At a certain point, one has to accept that certain aspects of one's own character put them in so small (and so poorly understood) a niche that representing those certain traits or characteristics in something like a Pathfinder iconic simply isn't feasible. I'm all for Paizo introducing characters that make it clear that there is no stigma attached to one's sexual orientation, but the sexuality/gender/identity spectra are so diverse and so (to be frank) poorly organized in terms of vocabulary and consistency (try getting a room full of genderqueer people to agree on a set of neutral-gendered pronouns like zie/zir) that going for even finer granularity isn't something I see happening in the near future.

Did you know there is a transgendered iconic? She is awesome.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Caineach wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Caineach wrote:
This is pretty much the exact point Correia was trying to make. In fact he even uses the "everything is for a reason". The entire post was to basically tell aspiring authors not to follow the advice just because, because then you will be shooting yourself in the foot trying to tie something in that doesn't really fit. Write the story that you want and add the details where needed, but not because of any particular social justice cause.

I'm amused by this in the context of the official reason for this thread: Larry Correia praising Pathfinder for diversity.

The official stated reason for that diversity is exactly what he complains about: making sure they had representative characters of different genders and different races and even now LGBTQ characters.

Except Paizo didn't write the characters to just fill in a box. They made them awesome. And most new authors (Correia's audience for the gender post) wont be able to take something they aren't familiar with and make it awesome. It will come across as either bland or preachy, and no one will read it. And if no one reads your stuff, you will never make money.

Luckily no one actually advises new authors to add diversity just to fill the box. Including the post he responded to about going beyond two genders. Correia added that in all himself.

And that exact criticism has been aimed at Paizo with nearly every appearance of new diversity, particularly the recent trans characters.

The orriginal artical included such lines as

Quote:
I want an end to the default of binary gender in science fiction stories.
Quote:
I want to never again read entire anthologies of SF stories or large-cast novels where every character is binary-gendered.

Correia didn't add it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Caineach wrote:
This is pretty much the exact point Correia was trying to make. In fact he even uses the "everything is for a reason". The entire post was to basically tell aspiring authors not to follow the advice just because, because then you will be shooting yourself in the foot trying to tie something in that doesn't really fit. Write the story that you want and add the details where needed, but not because of any particular social justice cause.

I'm amused by this in the context of the official reason for this thread: Larry Correia praising Pathfinder for diversity.

The official stated reason for that diversity is exactly what he complains about: making sure they had representative characters of different genders and different races and even now LGBTQ characters.

Except Paizo didn't write the characters to just fill in a box. They made them awesome. And most new authors (Correia's audience for the gender post) wont be able to take something they aren't familiar with and make it awesome. It will come across as either bland or preachy, and no one will read it. And if no one reads your stuff, you will never make money.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

There are some great books that tinker with gender and sexuality. I hear the guy that wrote "Lock In" does a lot of that very well.

Just randomly making a character, say, transsexual, though, and not involving that in any way with the character, plot, or theme, can come across as "fake". Like an author checking off boxes. In the same way, making a character heterosexual can come across as cheap and lazy if you make a point of it without tying it in in some fashion.

It's not a matter of hating diversity in that case. It's a matter of disliking false plot points. It's a very simple rule of writing that everything is for a reason. You don't stick something in a story that just distracts the reader without some sort of payoff.

Now, I love my stories to be diverse. I'm into animation, so I really enjoy making characters look and act very different. I'd love to get to write in a gay or lesbian character someday, though I doubt I'll ever be able to.

But regardless of that, I'm not gonna stick in a gay character just for the sake of having a gay character. I'll do it because it fits something I want to do—whether it be themes of intolerance, a romantic subplot, or just a character whose backstory is linked to their orientation. Hell, I might even do it for a joke, like the gag at the end of ParaNorman (which I liked both because it was funny and because it marked one of the first explicitly gay characters in kids' animation, like, ever).

I'll make a character gay if I envision them as gay. I won't make a character, and then decide later to make them gay because I realized I didn't have enough gayness in my story.

This is pretty much the exact point Correia was trying to make. In fact he even uses the "everything is for a reason". The entire post was to basically tell aspiring authors not to follow the advice just because, because then you will be shooting yourself in the foot trying to tie something in that doesn't really fit. Write the story that you want and add the details where needed, but not because of any particular social justice cause.

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