There appears to be a broken link in your post.
A few ideas for this class, borrowed from The Investigator class:
Crime Scene Analysis (Ex): The investigator can
The investigator must study the site of a deed
Like a Knowledge skill used to gain information
An investigator may only make a single Sense
In Your Head (Ex): When the investigator
Contemplative Trance (Ex): The investigator can, once per day, spend a 1d6 x 10
Lethal Blow (Ex): The investigator’s
Studied Attacks (Ex): An investigator may use
Craft Cheese wrote:
Given all the design work and statistical analysis I'm sure the developers have put into these classes, I'm sure this is not any new information. After all, one of the basic parts of design is to test to see how effective the designed item/process is in achieving its goals in expected usage conditions.
This version of the swashbuckler still lacks things effectively contribute to the party outside of combat once the game moves out the E6 range. Most abilities are combat related and the character will be increasingly sidelined in non-combat situations at higher levels. Good for browsing the internet, reading a book, or playing smartphone games while you wait for the next combat I guess.
You might also want to consider looking at the Investigator class by Owen KC Stephens (Rogue Genius Games) for some inspiration and mechanically sound directions the class can be taken. Maybe give Owen a call and talk things over since, his name is on the playtest document as a contributing author.
Less Lawful, More Good wrote:
Thanks for the clarification.
How they handle different stat requirements for the Warpriest equivalent of Channel Energy is going to need some attention, or it will cause all sorts of problems related to feats, multi-classing and prestige classes. It can be done, but requires paying some attention to the details.
Okay, I think I see the disconnect. While the skill selection is similar between the classes, all those non-brawlers listed above also have class features that they can use outside of combat.
For example, Barbarians can use their rage and rage powers to perform non-combat physical, supernatural, and even social feats and also have trap sense.
Gunslingers have the utility shot deed, and you might be able to argue that menacing shot can have some non-combat uses. These guys are mostly combat oriented and I think it limits the range of builds and game types they are useable in.
The monk, has a number of physical feats they can perform with Ki and also get a Tongues effect, plus a short-range teleport that can allow them to bypass obstacles. At the highest levels, they even get the ability travel to a different plane.
And I do agree that magic doesn't completely negate all skills, but it is hard to find a skill that cannot be duplicated with a higher chance of success by a spell as you increase in levels. Also, the effects of most skills are stuck in the realm of the mundane while the truly fantastical effects are reserved for magic (or supernatural abilities).
When designing something, or making suggestions for changes, it is often helpful to compare the test object against something similar that has already been done. To that end, I'd like this thread to be a place where playtesters can post an ACG class and another class (3rd party publisher, homebrew, or other) that fills a similar niche. Hopefully, the designers and other playtesters can use this information to see what has been done in the past, what works, what doesn't, and what might work better.
To start things off (an incomplete list):
Warpriest: Divine Channeler (Rite Publishing)
Please feel free to add more and to comment as to which classes should be used as examples both good and bad, what should be borrowed, and what should be avoided.
I was doing some browsing of other forums recently and I ran across Magic Items and the Wish Economy. It seemed somewhat related to the magic item creation rules and economy rules used in Kirthfinder, and thought you might be interested in seeing if there's anything useful in there you could borrow.
In Alluria Publishing's Cerulean Seas book which covers mechanics, content and rules for undersea adventures they introduce the Disoriented condition as a replacement for the Prone condition, which becomes of limited use in a 3D environment. Since flight is fairly similar, something akin to the underwater Disoriented could be used. It might work slightly better than the one you've proposed which only works if the combat takes place close to the ground.
Cerulean Seas - Combat Chapter wrote:
Remove the swim speed and buoyancy references and replace them with one appropriate for flyers and you have something that could work quite well.
Are you including non-fighter classes such as monks, barbarians, rogues, paladins, and rangers in the martials, or are you limiting it to only fighters? Pretty much all the other non-casters or 4 level casters have more non-combat capability than the brawler.
Edit: My concern is that when playing a normal adventure, the brawler is not going to have much ability to contribute when the party is not actively fighting. This will become more pronounced as they increase in levels and the skill system is increasingly marginalized by magic and class features.
It might be useful to look at the issues raised in the bolded text, and maybe take a look at the Swordmaster for some inspiration in deeds and what can be done to make the Swashbuckler less linear and more varied in how it can be built and able to contribute to the party on a similar level as other classes.
This is pretty rich when Anzyr/Chwheezy have posted a wizard build and you have yet to post a fighter.
Something that confuses me about the rogue, is why they didn't just decide to publish stronger Talents and Advanced Talents. The basic class structure seems to be pretty good, it's just the abilities aren't all that great. The Barbarian saw a nice upgrade in the APG from the new rage powers, and the rogue has a similar structure there already that makes it easy to add new powers to the class.
This class lacks pretty much all social skills and has no class abilities to allow them to interact outside of combat. This makes it difficult for a brawler player to interact with the game world beyond killing things. Useful for a GM when they want to build a killer/thug NPC, but not so useful for a player looking to play in a game that contains more than combat.
So, looking at the non-combat social capability of the Swashbuckler, it appears to have slightly less ability in social situations than the Aristocrat. Since the Swashbuckler doesn't get any class abilities to help with other non-combat situations and only gets 4 skill points per level, it really looks like a strong NPC class. You can build a good killer with this, but they are going to be pretty much limited to that role and won't have many options for solving problems outside of combat.
Yeah, it's hard to miss these threads given how often it shows up at the top of the Suggestions/Homebrew forum. I took at look when the hybrid classes were announced and this seemed to be a more elegant approach that lets Paizo and others put out lots of splatbook MCA's without running into the class bloat issues. It also seems to be more acceptable for having somewhat bland and obvious combinations and provides a whole new design space that opens up multi-classing in a fun way.
Narrative power/ability to interact and affect the story doesn't have to be social or combat. It can also involve finding where to go next, travel capabilities, finding things. Generally things that change the situation.
Paladin: Spells. There's bundles of spells here that give narrative ability. Here's a fairly extensive list: Paladin Spells. Take a look at all the ones that don't involve combat, but let the paladin change the situation/have control over what direction the story takes.
Paladins also get the following class abilities: Detect Evil, Mercy which have non-combat narrative power.
Barbarians: Multiple Rage Powers can give bonuses to skill checks, change the enviornment around the barbarian, detect evil, dispel magical effects. Not as much narrative power and non-combat capabilities as a full caster, but there is some non-combat capability there that remains thematic to the class concept.
Ranger: Spells, Favoured Enemy (lots of skill bonuses), Wild Empathy, Track, Favoured Terrain, Hunter's Bond (via either the companion bond or capabilities of the animal companion), Woodland Stride, Quarry, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight, Master Hunter.
The question for me is: "Is having the same predicament of other full bab class related to interaction with the story/narrative power a good idea?" Several of the other martial classes have been given abilities to interact with the story beyond "I hit it with my sword", so it's obviously not a mutually exclusive thing.
All of the Swashbuckler's class features, aside from the 4 skill points, are related to combat. This leaves this class with very little narrative power and ability to engage in the story in a meaningful fashion outside of the "kills things" scope. The class is a hammer and every problem is going to look like a nail.
All of the Brawler's class features, aside from the 4 skill points, are related to combat. This leaves this class with very little narrative power and ability to engage in the story in a meaningful fashion outside of the "kills things" scope. The class is a hammer and every problem is going to look like a nail.
Isn't that something that should be checked with statistical models and not with annecdotal tests? Otherwise, you become more susceptible to streaky results.
It'd be cool if they decided to create a multiclass archetype system that allows players to blend different classes with the right multiclass archetype.
So, if Paizo is interested in multi-class hybrids, have they considered the Multi-class Archetypes.
It seems to me that this system would allow for pretty much all the multiclass combos offered in this playtest so far, and also be much easier to expand upon in the future. This would allow Paizo to add more hybrids in the future with less effort and also not obsolete the existing multi-class system. Plus, everyone loves archetypes. Seems like a win-win. You can even take the existing class hybrids and adapt them to multi-class archetypes with minimal work.
It strikes me that if there are problems with the multiclassing system, it would be better to fix those problems instead of continually creating work-arounds and band-aids. If your new system adds something to the game beyond a work-around, then great. But otherwise, you'd be better off in the long run fixing the problems that cause the work-arounds.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Sorry for the flag, it was a misclick.
World of Xoth I may have been mistaken on. It looks like the semi-campaign guide is for Sword and Sorcery not PFRPG. http://endzeitgeist.com/ezg-reviews-spider-gods-bride-tales-sword-sorcery/
Shadowlands has a conversion guide http://endzeitgeist.com/ezg-reviews-shadowlands-conversion-guide/ and a free module http://endzeitgeist.com/ezg-reviews-shadowlands-carthicas-pride/
Yeah, from what I've seen these classes don't seem that inspired as new classes. They may mesh two ideas, but it really feels like a bandaid to the multi-classing system rather than an improvement. Many of them could easily have been presented as alternate classes or archetypes. I still think adopting and expanding the Talented Class design from Owen K. Stephen's Talented line and adding any desired talents and edges would be the better alternative. The Talented system does not obsolete the existing classes, rather it expands the customizability. You can pretty much re-create all of the base/core classes with their talented counterparts, which strikes me as something that would be good for the Advanced Class Guide. The core and base versions are for less experienced players, the advanced is where the full level of customizability is made available for the more experienced players or for people looking to create something more unusual.
It also strikes me, that rather than trying to bandage over the problems with multi-classing, it might be better to address it directly in this book and come up with some rules that would allow players to multi-class existing classes so the hybrid classes are unnecessary. There's not a whole lot of new concepts or ideas in these classes, which makes them a bit lackluster when compared to previous classes.
So, I went and did the obvious and looked at Endzeitgeist's website under "Campaign Settings". Here are the ones that have been missed so far in this thread:
My vote is to have Talented versions of all the base and core classes as the new classes in Paizo's Advanced Class Guide. You can always create new talents and edges to cover the new abilities they want to create with the hybrid classes proposed for that book.
I agree that the likelihood of Paizo using the Talented Class framework is pretty remote. Still, it seems as though it would solve a number of problems, keep the class bloat down (people don't seem to get as annoyed with additional rage powers vs extra archetypes or classes to give an example), and generally give a stronger framework to build on and expand in the future. It wouldn't obsolete the existing classes, as they tend to be the simpler build method of the class concept, whereas the Talented versions have a higher degree of customization and may require more skill to build properly. I seem to remember such an argument being used for the higher mechanical complexity in the APG classes.
Sometimes it's fun to tilt at windmills and entertain what-if fantasies.