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shroudb wrote:
CXM wrote:
Rules Artificer wrote:

Quoted from myself in another thread:

As a means of tanking that doesn't involve Aggro mechanics, Retributive Strike does a good job. Enemies don't want a free hit on them (that comes with a debuff), so they hit the Paladin instead.(...)

I would think anything that targets AC/TAC counts as hit, ranged attack or no. Paladins can not be done as Gunladins or even effective Shootladins as of right now - the way is melee, melee is the way.

And you do want to never use it, but since it is subject to the Multiple Attack Penalty, in my group the Paladin almost always tried to hit with a -12 to the roll - even with the proficiency bonuses, that makes it almost impossible to hit, and you can only ever attempt it ONCE per turn. This makes it laughable as a tanking tool, unless the GM humors you.

...

You're wrong on the MAP issue.

Attacks outside your turn are not affected by MAP unless they specifically say so (I think only ready action does so). Neither for you, nor your allies.
Quote:

MULTIPLE ATTACK PENALTY
If you attack more than once on the same turn, your
attacks after the first take a penalty called a multiple
attack penalty. Your second attack takes a –5 penalty, and
any subsequent attacks take a –10 penalty. This penalty is
untyped and is cumulative with all other penalties.
The penalty doesn’t apply to attacks you take when it
isn’t your turn (such as attacks made as part of a reaction),
though these attacks often have their own penalty. You
can choose a weapon with the agile trait to reduce your
multiple attack penalty (see page 182).

So, retribution is at -2,not -12,making it way better than a 2nd attack.

Somebody please explain to me why this obscure rule is to be found somewhere, is not directly referenced in any way in AOO feats (but they are mentioned as not suffering from MAP), and why if AOOs mention not being subject to MAP, the Retributive Strike makes no such distinction.

The lack of any reference that it doesn't apply and such references present two pages later in AOO feat made the GM rule in this way (most people don't remember every rule ever at the top of their head)...


Rules Artificer wrote:

Quoted from myself in another thread:

As a means of tanking that doesn't involve Aggro mechanics, Retributive Strike does a good job. Enemies don't want a free hit on them (that comes with a debuff), so they hit the Paladin instead.

I do, however, have some pretty significant issues with Retributive Strike being the Paladin's primary class feature.

- It is only effective countermeasure against particular threats, and even then isn't clearly defined.
RT's trigger is "A creature within your reach hits an ally or friendly creature." Does it trigger on ranged attacks? What about spells that deal damage? What about harmful effects that don't require an attack roll?

Then there's the issue that Retributive Strike always requires the Paladin to be within reach of the opponent, and never upgrades from this requirement. For melee, a creature can easily move to the opposite side of a creature and strike. Ranged attacks (including most spells) can easily circumvent this requirement. Where's the mid-level option to be able to at least move up to our speed before making a Retributive Strike? Also, what's a ranged weapon build Paladin to do?

- Retributive Strike is a class feature you want to never have to use. It's the threat of being walloped that makes an enemy reconsider attacking your allies and try to attack you instead. However, what happens when the enemy does just this? The vast majority of the Paladin's offensive class features revolve around Retributive Strike. Which means that, if the enemy attacks the Paladin instead (AKA Paladin is doing his job tanking) then the Paladin is deprived of using his class features that actually help defeat his foes!

This leads to the exceedingly wonky state that a Paladin wants to get in position to protect his allies but then have enemies attack his allies over him so that he can actually use his abilities to defeat them. Having anti-tanking be the optimal strategy for your tank seems extremely counterintuitive.

On a similar note, Aura of Justice seems...

I would think anything that targets AC/TAC counts as hit, ranged attack or no. Paladins can not be done as Gunladins or even effective Shootladins as of right now - the way is melee, melee is the way.

And you do want to never use it, but since it is subject to the Multiple Attack Penalty, in my group the Paladin almost always tried to hit with a -12 to the roll - even with the proficiency bonuses, that makes it almost impossible to hit, and you can only ever attempt it ONCE per turn. This makes it laughable as a tanking tool, unless the GM humors you.


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In my group, the GM didn't notice for most of the session that the Paladin's Retributive Strike doesn't have the "ignore multiple attack penalty" option that Attack of Opportunity has.

After it was noticed, monsters no longer took paladin's tanking with any seriousness. Although there were 10 more attempts at Retributive Strike from her, she didn't hit once. Adding MAP to the -2 is just too much unless you waste your turn hoping for a reaction that you -may- be able to use, and without any spells or ranged attack (no Gunladins so far, and we all miss those in our group) there wasn't anything for her to do outside of trying to hit them with the slashy end.


I myself am a fan of every alignment getting a special class like a paladin, but keeping the paladin LG term and making the other classes unique in other ways. I do understand this would make a rulebook of its own, of course... If we do it four-corners wise, it could be Paladin, Antipaladin, possibly some specific Hellknight for LE only? And one other champion for CG.

Druids were once Neutral-only, and Monks Lawful-only, and Barbarians not-Lawful only. Most alignment-based classes are gone now, and unless we see some of that come back, I'm not sure why we bother with alignment any more instead of slapping on some other system that lets communicate to others easily how this character will approximately behave in different situations - there were multitude of those in different RPGs...


I have bought the first one and I'm majorly disappointed by one thing: bimonthly updates. It will be hard for me to re-schedule and space out the content so that my players are satisfied with the regularity and there are no holdups every other month while we wait for more content.