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Sufestra

Bwang's page

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber. 1,379 posts. 1 review. No lists. 1 wishlist.


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Rub-Eta wrote:
Dresses like a gnome, smokes like a dwarf, learned like an elf but still acts like a nerd in mom's basement.

Hey, leave Mom out of this!


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dot.

Really, the ARG point system has a wealth of failed assumptions and serious philosophical errors. Any discussion should hopefully help.


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I had an extensive pantheon collection back in 3.0 and 3.5. As I started my conversion to PF, a player pointed out that only 3 really mattered in that game, the rest were more collections of how they related to the divine classes, etc. The ;gods' were off stage entirely. I don't even use all the G ones.


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Pathfinder races are more powerful and a number of well thought out 3pp ones exist.

A number of problem rules are dealt with and I use a Rules Lawyer to deal with them.


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In the past, our 'oldies' group experimented with both, ultimately rejecting both, achievement for above reasons and story because we often had players drop for a bit and restarting the 'story' proved annoying.

One player drug Story into her kids' game and worked out the drudgery: the PC is responsible for driving their own story. I am seeing it 'work' in her rare runs, but she's taking control of our RotRL game and forcing germane Storyline 'feats' upon us. Her rules include no early completions.


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Milo v3 wrote:
You know, I actually find this thread disappointing. So little chance for non-vancian campaigns.

Agreed! While I recognize the literary shortcuts a Vancian system allows authors and the mechanical advantage such a system allows a weak GM, I expect my players to entertain me with 'fantastic' gyrations and wild solutions within the game. I use Rogue Genius' spell point system with some modifications hard earned from 4 decades of running. The final result was printed out and mangled by my players into a better version we now use.


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So glad I home brew my game!

In 1976, a player bought the module I was running and tried to metagame getting the juicy prize, but I switched an armored skeleton warrior for a lich. Homebrew for ever!


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You are running across the flaw to all magic system: not all spells are listed! Why? The writers have page counts and other things that WILL draw in cash.

A friend wrote up over a hundred spells that would be found in a magic rich world like most using the D&D moniker. Most were rewritten low end spells with less combat oriented text. A healer's chant acting as a minor bonus to a heal check for example.

Don't whine about not having the spell already, call for spells that are needed.


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Most of those I game with are old fogeys that actually RED the rules and have the next few levels intricately planned out.

To your point, they need to plan a level ahead and show up ready to play. A GM of my acquaintance will make you play as you on file character if you're not up to date. I got real sharp making sure my Ranger had arrows! If they can't keep their toon straight, have them mislay stuff. Imagine the Rogue upon finding he left a +2 dagger at the inn, then finds it being used to carve beef! Yes, this GM was petty, but we showed up ready to go.


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Get with your GM, as ours has a homemade list of at least a dozen (she uses a D12), and our Oracle and Wizard use differing gear. One of the Oracle's involves walking neeked in the morning rain. I am stuck with a Crystal Ball for the moment, but have a late Shaman's 'bones' to throw. We may get the same cryptic result in differing ways. One I scryed involved burning paper cones. Knowing the level that required would have been helpful...


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Fursona has a race book of anthro-animals.

I have played in a world were dwarves were badger-men, elves were deer-men and halflings became squirrels. interesting...


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This brings up a past tower we were sent to clear. There was a permanent undeath ward on the upper floor of the tower and we 'assumed' that area was secure. I'll have to alert the party to our error. Wonder whats up stairs?


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Umbral Reaver once posted the concept that a race should 'cost' build points. I used a home system that created a 'zeroed' chart for most CORE races, with a GM imposed discount of '-1' for Humans (They are 0 point cost after a discount, making them the best buy). All the other races have alternate point cost AFTER I re-worked them to fit the campaign. Elves cost 10 points, have major campaign 'involved' text, and are considered 'retired nobility'. As you finish screaming about the cost, its a 15 point build with an additional build point each level (no +1/ 4levels) for a 35 point character at L20.

Of my current 5 regulars and 6 less often, there are 3 Elves. 3 out of 14 characters means they see deeper into the Elves and really get in there. Several 'elf' cultural bits have snuck in and all 3 seem delighted. Despite having dozens of races that could be played, there are 5/14 Humans. I believe at least 2 do not want complicated backstories, using a 'miller's son looking for adventurer' and a half page of 'town musician (bard) in search of loot'.

All but one have a decade or more of RP and all have run games of some genre in the past. Most, several.


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First, this is a thread on high AC, not a whiney thread about how you're intimidated by 3pp. My 3.0 FTR popped a 27 AC at level 4. A fellow player whined about my math and I handed him the character sheet, got it back corrected to AC 28.

The problem is not 3pp, fear of 3pp or even optimization. In most cases, I hear on these boards, it settles into relative poor GM skills and experience. Every real compliant boils down to some imbalance of experience between players and GMs. Remember, every nifty trick your players produce is a template for next week's encounters. My above example is the bstrd stepchild of 3 earlier players, one of which was the math checker above. The next game, the checker ran had 3 underlings the players could not phase at AC23. Until the PCs learned to cope, he repeated variations on the encounter.

No GM should blithely allow game breaking material to wreck his game, even with Gygax and Arneson approving and a Papal Bull. Smokin' hot babes in skimpy bikinis are conditional here. In the above example, all was CORE without a single splat book.

Why do I use 3pp? It improves the game.

Why do I nix crap, even from CORE? Because the writers are not on any 'divine list' I know of and grandfathered in some of the worst ideas and mechanics from four decades ago. "They had to for continuity" is a horrid excuse and I hate myself for not producing better ideas.


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Ditto the superiority of the Imp! I play a version of the Eberron Changeling as a wizard. Mutable familiar is something to keep me cozy at nigh, cook breakfast scout without drawing attention, find a great campsite and play cards with each night. The imp is quite good at nigh any role and tucks me in at night!

Now, on to you core problem: nobody cares. He has the other players lulled in to being slugs from what you've written. In one case I lived, the dm played everyone against each other, even to the point of risking divorce. I count my leaving as taking my exit to Lourdes! Unless this is the only game in town, punt! Start your own game. Do not let this toxic person hurt your soul. He is not worth it.


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I love the output under 3pp, bringing in better spell point systems, races, classes, as filler to a world I know well. Since 3.0 put half-orcs in as a PC option, despite their not existing in my world, I have refused several requests. The only 'monks' write on parchment and do daily prayers. I could go on, but it is ultimately 'my' world.

The RotRL game I occasionally reference uses the Campaign Rules I foist on my players with their own vote. Well, mostly. Half Orcs are in, but monks got 3/8 ones when we were setting up, no sixes and only one 5.

Each session has some 'floating rules, modified Rogue Genius Spell points 'float' at GM's fiat, but have only been benched once. Piece meal armor only appeared in one game and caused so much delay no GM has allowed it since. We are also under a cobbled together grappling mish-mash (I confess that I hate it), but not one 'grapple' has qualified as yet.

Spells from 3pp are popular, as are some player crafted spells.

Our company includes a 3pp 'revived' undead sorcerer with that Bloodline.
Another is John Brazier race and a third is a small Wyvern-Humanoid just learning to fly. In all, they keep it interesting.


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RotRL is giant oriented and themed, but running it with undead. My players had a sit down and hashed out some background to flesh out the nibble-y bits.

One recommendation was a better variety of roles for Undead. I pidgeon-holed Vampires as 'Gluttony' personified and took a seat as a 'co-GM' ran a pride episode using Vampires! She was incredible and is due to run a second bit in a few sessions to cap the first one.

What I come here for are ideas for sin-Undead Combos and Ideas. She has already dropped hints of Sloth oriented undead for summer and my brain is still hammered by her take on Pride with vampiric knights!


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Having run a LG Rogue brother to a Paladin, the greatest problem I had was a gm who was stuck in the stereotype.


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House Rules I insist on are done before the game starts and I try to explain each. A player pulling the endless 'why' will not be playing. That said, I have been forced by irrefutable logic to rescind my prohibition of ALL G*n Monks when I got a 'best solution' on these boards that included making a desired Class a Monk archetype. Defending my choices often (too often) leads to far better Rules and reasons for said Rule.

Player proposed changes are never allowed 'just because'. A proposed change that has good reasons (or worse, good role play potential) gets tossed to the mob and mauled. Of the first 3 offered, two were combined and the third turned up in an archetype a month later, without what I objected too (overly complicated mechanic)!

Players have contributed and expounded upon a number of MY House Rules and tightened my sloppy work immeasurable. Numerous features that are now as innate to the game came from players well ahead of me in their roleplay. I just lean back and compliment them for figuring things out, thing desperately jot down notes for inclusion. Never miss an occasion to shine a player's work and seal it as your own. Alas, all my players are in on the trick and never give me my stolen credit.

Posting changes is well past vital, as most of my players would cheerfully gut me for dropping anything on the night of the game. Yes, they are that serious! As a rule, most 'Rules' are hammered out between games and an often hard fought consensus emerges. I only veto things that dump work on me or pollute my view of the world. Race and Class 'sweetening' is jealously guarded against by the other players. Nobody wants to play Jimmy Olsen.

'Sweetening' refers to a discredited habit of a former 'dm' who played favorites by only allowing 'x' to play 'y' and then layering on the advantages and began diminishing his other players. The worst part is that otherwise, he was a great 'dm'.


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Redesigning a feature is a good path, starting with the classics. A friend redid several in ancient D&D, the artifact Axe being retooled as a mythic (artifact) sword. Think Excalibur.


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The last time Liz made her presence known was to offer saga advice, not delete posts, so I'd agree that the comments have been very high on candor and civility.


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Next game after NY, but my players are now coughing up slurs. I have about as many in emails as they've produced since May!


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Sorry, real world crisis.

D&D has featured stereotypes, be they 'all orcs are evil' or the Elf/Dwarf tension, they have shifted by module, edition and such, but they persist. This is a good bit of the actual RP aspect of Pathfinder when you look at a Race's write-up, both in the 'relation's fluff' as a soft guideline for role play and in the gritty mechanics where some get hatred bonuses for others. Trust me, if you think micro-aggresions are a real thing, you need to open your eyes to the brutality and real hatred of the world.

All this blabbered: anything that helps create a stronger connection to a game world is a tool and all tools must be used carefully. If the issue of prejudice bothers one or more players, make it into a quest chain. read up on the numerous alternate fictions that have been written for nuggets. A long ago GM took a Star Trek episode where a planet developed a pair of races where both were half and half black and white, but on opposite halfs of the body. Great show.

A number of modules and newer settings have delved deep into this and are worth exploring. And of course I cannot remember a single one.


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Stereotypes exist because they are true...well, almost always true...well, generally true...well, maybe not even a majority of the time.

I think that's how I remember the line from Ethics decades ago. All Russian women become bag ladies by age 40. Not really, its just that photographers have selectively picked out those women and as their opposite, utter babes that show up in Playboy! In short, all '1s' and '10s'. A friend did this for a statistics paper, disproving it with Mrs Gorbachov (sp) and passport photos.

If I were to jibe Norwegians or Swedes for lacking tans, most people would agree, including most N and S. In light hearted jest, they would even join in with jokes they've heard (This happened at a Norwegian wedding in Atlanta with a ink-black class mate joking his 'pinky finger' had more tan than the 40+ Norwegians there. The matriarch joked that it was how they chased Polar Bears from Norway [PBs never lived in N.])

D&D from the start has featured alas.


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So, no Mage Warden?


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Running a world where their are literally dozens of races, not to mention ethnicities and sub-races, I get a lot of player generated friction between the mish mash. Dwarves that clash with Elves are commonly the loggers and the Elves are the more judgmental. Several Draconic-humanoid peoples exist, each decrying the others as impure and false. Human cultural and ethnic groups abound and squabble amongst themselves. All (and more) have snide remarks and slurs based on game mechanics and Fluff. Humans from West Hamby are nomadic horse riders who dislike being afoot and wear shoes meant for stirrups, leading several dozen insulting words to be coined, each a variation on 'bad walkers'. Some insults are happily received, such as a common Lizard humanoid jab at male Dwarf beards, roughly translating to 'fur face'.

I end noting that players created most of the remarks as my brain was too looped into the storyline.


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Di-satisfied with 3.5 failing to fix 3.0, I started work on house rules for my game. Then the Golem apparently stole half of them, almost of my to-do list and published it! And the only REAL gripe I wound up with was the +2 to stats.

Archetypes are a great way to personalize characters and generate intriguing campaign fluff AND grit to make the world just that much more real to the players. The immense crossover with 3pp material (as opposed to the Cold Shoulder) has allowed me to crank the game closer to the game I wish to run, be it the vast array of archetypes produced by a number of creative souls or the hash work I made of Rogue Genius' Spell Points. I reckon you could say I love the great answers to questions I never thought to ask. Umbral Reaver solved my balancing races problem before I really crawled into that Jeffries Tube. Being able to propose an idea and get serious responses and the 'never forget that we're here to have fun' spirit really help with getting overloaded.


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Fake Healer wrote:
Here is a great site on slings, crafting them, using them, and history of them. Slinging.org They also do a good comparison of ranges and accuracy and such in comparison to other stuff like English Longbows and stuff...

Rocking site, much improved over the last one, but I tagged 3 different errors on the first page. The first projectiles were the rock and spear according to virtually all Anthropologists. Bows improved substantially by the end of the Roman era and supplanted slings as a military weapon, primarily due to acceptance grew due to simple crafting, practice, retrieval of ammunition and practice rounds. Still, I like slings and used to drop squirrels at 40+ yards. Never bagged a rabbit...

Sling stones and the like were deadly in their day, (Cretan slingers were valued mercenaries all over the Mediterranean) but the advent of cheap bows pulled by marginally trained mobs protected from cavalry by spearmen was their death knell. It was also the time of padded armor and actual metal helmets, both of which were good protection from sling bullets. Big shields that could shelter a legionnaire from both bullets and the fairly weak arrows of the day also helped. A big problem was how much space a slinger required to properly wield his weapon, roughly a 6 foot frontage and up to 8 in depth. Densely packed bowmen of the day could work with as little as 2 wide and deep! As many as 12 to 1 with similar range, but they were a much more 'target rich' aiming point. Remember, people were considerably smaller in that day, 6" shorter than Americans of today and rarely topped 130 lbs.


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Several, but I want to double down on the mish mash idea but add an eco-friendly angle:

Jerimond's Orb with Zombies, Mummy 2 midget zombies, killer chihuahuas and mutants. On different runnings of course.

You Only Live Twice (Bond) with Elves eventually saving the day. Then retreaded into a western heavily troped by Gunga Din and Sergeants Three. Shamefully using the same cheat sheets!

Sunken Citadel map and premise for Troglodites in 3.5 and Cthulhu wannabees in a Stalking the Night Fantastic game, actually run concurrently. Both segwayed into Kershen's Garden (lots of sp).


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I got stuck one this in a pair of 3.0 games, working with no time to create a second toon. I copied and used the same everything in both games. In one, all went swimmingly, but the other GM went ballistic that I actually justified a Human taking Humans as his first Favored Enemy! And he actually agreed with my premise! It violated the sacred RAW! He eventually let me have Humans as my second since I was the Reeve's agent and not very effective rooting out petty criminals in a 95% Human district.

Incidentally, both games were intensely role playing oriented and political labyrinths! Much fun and I had to keep charts to follow all the twists, GoT was one GM's favorite books.


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I ran a one off inside a 'Japanese style giant robot wreckage post-apocalyptic with cheesy psionics' once. The repair robots had gone haywire to become the foes. Really weak game.

Have some variety of foes to break the monotony, perhaps allying with the 'white blood cells' or some such, foe becoming friend as they realize you're trying to help. Communication spells get to be really important!


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Looking for a 'Mage Warden' as an agent of a over-blown, over-hyped and ultimately inefficient mage's guild. The basics would be Inquisitor, Investigator or Magus based and geared towards a 'have gun, will travel' type that acts with little official support. We had a Abjurer of this mindset some years back and the idea of a 'naughty mage' catcher was a twist that had several intriguing story lines.

In a current game I play in, we are currently trying to find which of several Gnome Wizards are, is, whatever are responsible for dumping Halfling servant golems in a quarry to annoy vagrants. Such an Archetype would be way too useful.


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In Champions, I used him as the Archenemy of mankind.


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Deadly Sins and Heavenly Virtues are good goals, and I will need Sins.

More Spellpoint feats

Specialist treatments of the 'elements' as you did with Air, even to other traditions' elements like Wood or Void.

More themed racial books for other terrains.


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I like the premise and format, but I have over 60 solo monster or tight knit pdfs of forums, markets, etc. You need to make the series work, getting customers to make sure to watch for your offerings. I make sure to check out Pathways and other complimentary (free) work for interesting ideas. They do nice buff-ups for free. You need to make your's pop out. I suggest a micro encounter where the PCs have to react to the special abilities the monster has. Drop some Knowledge checks and let the obscure skills shine. A few variants or mutations of old staples, suggested backstories and so on. I once tried to warn the players they were facing a Gorgon Guardian beast by having the find 'stone crows' that had heavy stone feathers because the gizzard stones came from demolished victims of the Gorgon.

I just wish I had had more crows. An AC 18 flock of crows is a very odd encounter!


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Thx! I always seem to get wind of a kickstarter's passing.


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I was reminded of a green dragon we stupidly hunted. The *^%@ had a mirror image and something that seriously trashed our ability to spot him in a thicket. Then came the forest version of blizzard swirling us with all the debris in the area. The Barbarian and I back-to-backed out, the Gnome 'locksmith' invisible between us. The 'morons three' walked under the tree the dragon was hiding in and it got ugly fast. The Gnome finally slipped into position and stuck the greenie in a tender part. Dragon spun an gave my crit fighter an AoO and I clocked it for70+ points and massive damage almost got it. NP, the Barb nailed him and severed the head.


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In my game, the great Everyone believe Elves are a dead race on it's last legs, but Elves are more numerous than ever. The elder troupes of Elves know this and try to get their people to believe it, but the Elven base see their numbers as shrinking, not in absolute numbers but as part of the whole.

A cabal of the high born of the Elves hides in their midst planning the ultimate destruction of lesser races, considering only a precious few worthy to near the pinnacle of perfection. A big juicy conspiracy for some of my players and the faceless hand that generates the most nasty blood lettings. The even hate lesser forms of Elf, including their kin as flawed and to be pitied.

They are but a fraction of a percent of their branch of the Elf tree, but they work behind numerous veils, the unseen force that keeps the mongrol races at bay.


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I have run into a number of these, but enforce a time schedule for exterior pressure and let players know they are not alone in the world.

The last time, the players all but led the oogies back to their base of operations in a town. Think what happened when Bilbo dropped the 'barrel rider' comment to Smaug. And there was nobody named Bard there.

Losing all their mounts was a real pain; running out of arrows, food and every other mundane thing was truly amusing!


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Agreed. I use stunts like this to demonstrate a poorly organized combatant. Unfortunately, too many of the 'nifty' abilities fail to scale fast enough to be effective or require too many tics to be even marginal. Just being a flying tank with HP and funky abilities will not solve all the world's problems.


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In readying may campaign for total shift to PF from the hybrid it has been, I realized that a lot of the old PrCs are effectively replaced by archetypes. Someone posted that I should go that road bringing old elements of the world forward and it has solved numerous gritty bits. Thanks to whoever it was.

Now for the loose thought: 3.0/3.5 had a number of 'complete' books and such that offered partially fleshed out ideas for use. The Acolyte of the Skin, for example, offered a Cthulu-esque nightmare, but also an option for a non-horror switch to demonic fluff.

My question is has anyone else brought such elements forward to Pf? I just spent 5 hours trying to convert some from Scoundrel and am too wasted to properly proof them, but wanted to get this out to everyone for thoughts.


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I for one, as a player, love to correct GMs who believe there is no problem with 'at will', having never made it to level 6 before the 'talk' on what the heck I was doing that was wrecking his (never her) game. I played a Cleric through Crimson Throne and suckered the Sorceress in as an accomplice to derail several encounters in the first book. Before we started book 2, the three of us had a 'pizza showdown' and he implemented some revisions. The rest of the AP was a lot tighter. Damn fine time!

I use spell points to make resource management vital and prevent most of the abuses I can see (including several I don't understand but see in operation).

If you don't think an at will is OP, you haven't had a min/max power trip megalomaniac spam cure minor wounds.


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Gee...wouldn't this be a great 3pp idea! A book on different simulacra and spells for their creation. I tried a p*** poor revision a dozen years ago, establishing that 'x' level was required to create 'y' creature (usually y=2x in level), but it got lost in the shuffle. When I discovered 3pp material, I guessed someone would turn a hand to them, but none as yet to be found.


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I ran this for years based on the controller, what he would prefer. None of my BBEGs would casually kill unless called for, though an Evil BBEG would be more likely.

A raving CE mastermind beat the 'party' several times, but never went for the kill. They eventually cornered him and he begged for mercy/got away. Not so the next time.


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I let them pick, but use a scale for NPCs. I tend to use it to gauge player types of gamers. Max ht/Min wt? Probably a power hungry player?
Short player with a big character with ...issues.


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The only way I could see a LG Elder would be one so fanatical as to be nigh LE. The essence of the Elders is their very antithesis to our existence.

A very deranged friend of mine had a 3.0 divine... er, patron that was so lawful that NO transgressions were allowed and so 'good' that everyone had to slave away towards the 'common good'. Lawful Good Jackarse was our term. Unfortunately, I was not able to make many of the games, losing out on the whole 'anyone can go too far' theme. In the end, he judged all to fail in their devotion and 'left' the world behind.


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I love the sidebars for the races. Quick and tight! I did bits like them ages ago, but much more abbreviated and less helpful. Think of an index card for each race. I particularly like the 'how others see you' aspect, something I missed.


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I'm currently running RotRL with a slew of undead. You can switch up the monsters, the Fluff, Descriptions and whatnot with a bit of work. I have run the ancient Jerimond's Orb a total of 5 times with some of the same players. I quit after someone said it was vaguely familiar. I switched them to zombies for the kids one 4th of July, very rules light.

Perhaps the Golem will host a contest to update some of the old stuff as a cheap way to update pdf files for download. Some of the critters from the later Bestiaries would be worthy of appearing in some of the early APs.


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Doh! Was not meta-thinking on Bonus stacking. As if my players wouldn't have exploited it some way...


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Are they effectively 'Wizard only feats'?

Milo v3: Thanks for the quote, I was thinking it had to be a bonus feat only.

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