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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber. 1,507 posts. 1 review. No lists. 1 wishlist.


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Asmadaeus wrote:

One could assign classes specific point-buy values, perhaps help alleviate the MADness vs SADness.

Give Monks 25 point-buy, Paladins 20 point-buy, Wizards 15 point-buy. Establish the values before people chose their class, so everyone knows exactly what they are getting when they chose that class.

Soooo...I can start as a Monk, then take my second level in...Wizard?

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I took 15 plus one per level from a game that works well. So far, so good.

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A zoo, each being a different display. Each exhibit is a 'rare' or fanciful creation, think Simulacrums. Each 'subject' responds to life energy, coming 'alive' only when someone is with them. Pulled this in a 'prison' for high end BBEGs captured by a LE cult with a variation of Soul Jar. The exhibits do not know they are artificial and unable to advance in levels, thinking some agency is crimping their abilities.

The PCs had freed several before they identified them and paused the revival of more. Currently they are hunting five of the escapees, all level 7 to 9 casters of ill temper.

One captured the party and bargained their release: the Paladin swearing oaths, to help her back to her right self. In the rarely run game, I converted her into a Witch and am looking for a better archetype. She escaped bereft of spells, but was loaded day three when she suckered them. She needs some real social skills as all her minions died out hundreds of years back. And what would be a good bloodline...

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Have you already introduced the actual area? I used a Yellowstone-like corner of a great swamp, popped in mildly acidic mists, the thundering mountain and other features of Yellowstone to get the players jumpy. The loud noise forced them to pass notes of what they were saying (I translated). Nausea, no sleep (for spells), poor air quality (All Elves got sick, none had good Fort rolls), muck to walk in, roots to catch feet, crowded undergrowth, horrible smells, etc. The party went bonkers over a flippin' raccoon!

Good times!

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Did some for 3.0 and ran into anti-anime people. Better luck than I had.

Mine were not fully translucent, with 'active parts manifesting visibly within in disturbing ways (-4 Cha checks). Brains became visible (and their alien appearance) when one was doing heavy thinking. Food digesting, muscles when any but the most normal activity, etc. To counter the several logical benefits (as listed above under half construct), their ability scores suffered. -2 on Str and Dex. -2 to -4 on mental stats, but a +4 on Con. Try using feats to grant the ooze abilities. I didn't but it might work better.

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My campaign has Troll as a 'Type' since early '77, long before Types existed. Ogres too for that matter.

The trolls were varied by region or dominant feature(s). Rock Trolls were short and covered with 'warts' that fell off as rocks. Fire Trolls belched fire and breathed flame in melee, a serious hazard till it was discovered that they were 'slowed' if the fire was extinguished (waterskin in the mouth). Smoke Trolls exuded an acidic cloud that choked and obscured in melee, vulnerable to wind. Mouthers were able to grow multiple mouths, but more were weaker. Rat Trolls ate rats and other small critters like familiars, about as bright as the rats.

Players have added variants over the years and somewhere exists a worn spiral ring notebook with most of them in it.

They became the 'go to' nuisance race, the book one being merely the most commonly seen. Some new players were aghast at how the Wizard was not upset at being invited to dinner by a troll. It was a more Danish/Pomeranian version that are more chicken thief and minor annoyances than others.

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Odd, we had this 'go 'round' a few weeks back. Most came to the view that no cat would sully the magnificence of their tail with a lowly weapon. The more literal went with the 'not in the book' and 'no cat in our reality' points.

Moments after one 'girl' made a point about it being a communication device, the dominant cat of the house came slinking through the room, rubbing against everyone before sitting in front of the Chick-fil-A eating target to DEMAND her tribute, tail twitching her absolute right to his nuggets!

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I have a list somewhere of every item that we 'didn't' have at one point or another. Playing the pack mule Fighter, I can carry most of it in dropable bags. When 3.0 came around, I geared up to the gp and weight limits. After the first run, I checked off each item used, but the three items I thought we didn't use were actually loaned out to others who did use them.

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1-Expand the fluff. I have a unfortunately neglected race much like this, but with even less fluff.

2-The twin Fear entries may be too much.

3-might could use some more 'undead' flavor

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A group I play in has a feat that allows this, but it requires a higher level spell be sacrificed at the least. Playing a Ranger, I have only a slim exposure to the feat. I do know it must be a spell the caster has in her spellbook and it has serious negative effects on book and caster. The only time I 'observed it, the feat stunned or caster...mid fight!

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Earth Elementals are my traditional solution, but in the campaign I play in, there are over two dozen additional spells I know of (not 'know') that deal with repairs and construction, plus a few that prevent such. Our combat types pay me to tote around some scrolls that neutralize rust monster mischief! Beyond that one, I have only a couple of ones of that type, but can not remember ever prepping one for an adventure.

Ask you GM if he has a secret trove of spells that aren't on the main lists.

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When I play with a CN that isn't CE, I will change my view of this as an ABSOLUTE! But I've only been playing into my fifth decade and have yet to see this 'unicorn'. I place it in the same category of 'honest politician' and 'bigfoot'.

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The Beardinator wrote:
Like...San Francisco Smog Cloud?

SF fog dates back into the 1700s, several ships wrecked there as it was being settled. Friends dove one just north of the bay beck in 1970s. Long ago 'souvenir looted. Only the ballast stones were left.

Federal time if you go there now.

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I take it you've never socialized with college faculty.

Most of the BS was between the MD and the Lawyer with the Lit diagramming sentence structures. Educational, but the pizza was less obtuse. I remember why I dodged Philosophy and Lit.

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RedRobe wrote:
I just switched it to +2 to one ability score of the player's choice, and called it a day.

Much the same, simple is best. I took a 'Changeling feat' that allows me a +2 daily re-assignable skill modifier that is a lot of fun. As I get more Changeling feats', they reset based on how many I have. When I got my 5th, the +2 jumped to +3, but still changes but once per day.

The only real problem I have with people playing 'exotics' is when they refuse to role play them. We have a dwarf that has no RP skills at all wanting to play a kitsune. He's going to play it as bob the grocer, just like all his past characters.

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I trust the English Lit Dr at my table, a monstrous race does not need to spend one point. Neither does 'advanced'. She blames illiteracy on all our parts for not being able to read plain English. Something about backwards compatibility not being a given. The tirade devolved into Jung and Socrates (among others) and I went on a pizza run to miss the rest. If the writers had meant 'only' above x points, they should have said so.

All participants agreed with the above, but for differing reasons. I had some pizza.

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RedRobe wrote:
I had to change the racial ability adjustments of the Eberron be in line with Pathfinder, but they worked out well.

currently playing a legacy Eberron Changeling, and very interested in the changes you made. Might we get a peek?

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Feros wrote:

My question is this: how do you map non-Euclidean geometry on a 2D surface or get obtuse angles to act acute?


A cute? I use kittens and puppies.

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Gjorbjond wrote:

Heroic NPC rules for character creation

...includes such things as a lower point buy, less starting equipment, and no traits without taking the Additional Traits feat.

If you really want to implement a house rule to discourage taking the feat, you could further limit it to non-heroic NPCs. You'd have even fewer points and only NPC classes. Even an Adept cohort is better than pretty much any other feat.

I woke this morning to three emails from other players in the game (Don't you clowns sleep?) pointing out that very reference, our trait limit (1 for npcs, +1 if Human) and Starting packages (only PCs get cash to boot). Not being allowed a cohort, etc made me blind to all those things.

Incidentally, I count as 4 complications:

1-Non-standard race, he has in the low teens of Standard races, so it makes sense, I guess...

2-Wizard with constantly shifting spells.

3-A familiar that shifts forms and bonuses. Seeing as he requires me to have each form at my finger tips, this I can see. I also need to get a sheet for all 70-80 familiars out there.

4-As a shapeshifter, I freely admit to causing a great deal of 'complications' just by starting the meal as an Elf and ending as a Human.

5-Non-campaign material, as he doesn't run Eberron anymore. Should count, but I legacied in from back then. I got graced on this one.

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BltzKrg242 wrote:
Arbane the Terrible wrote:
the message I burn into the moon...

Hi there Chairface!

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Cantriped wrote:
Metamagic feats...

Some 3pp had an interesting take on these for the same reason, magnes serta or something like that. The whole idea was to make them more versatile and used. You use them much like selecting spells each day. I was reading it recently and it has an appeal to my wacky side.

Found part of it: Ars Metamagica ( by Mark Chance

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My policy is ALL that silliness had best be done before I get to sit down as GM. Yes, I count arrows, water and kippers, but I do not waste anyone's valuable gaming time haggling over shoeing a horse. I have noticed that every time a GM insists on this nonsense, he (always a he, btw) is trying to screw with a particular player.

A player who insists on this after I've rushed over after a long day sweating is the jerk I want to sit next to and fart profusely. And, yes, I have done it on more than one occasion, even asking people to swap places with me. I broke one of these louts after he whined about my stench (I usually stand back and 'long distance' my role until a break where my toon is not involved, then dive in the shower). The group vetted several months of fermented frustration on him and he became a much meeker soul for almost a month. They were still ripping him when I got back from a awesome shower.

Seriously, a friend insists on all character bookkeeping being done by a week before he runs (once/month) and you must have your next level plotted out as well. Every set of spells, civilian, home, guard and 'cleared for action' loads done. It sets a very serious tone and we get a load done in a 3-4 hour (at best) session. Considering the the 'kid' at that table is in her late 40s, no one has a real problem with the table rules.

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Don't ask me, I'm still lost back with the juggler and the butter churn!

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Personally, I'd let you take any number of your precious feats as ones that will never become active. But then, I don't require Wizards to prepare spells every day...

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If Leadership was stepped (1st time you get the cohort, 2nd the other followers) it might work better. The problems I've seen are:

1-time devoted to one player who almost always (no offense KK, you're good) sucks up game time. One players has a whole 'nother round they have to get accomplished and the worst are the players who are sure that they're not the one taking up all the time. Especially those who run diametrically different characters that just do not work well together or must function separately. KK above has the best example of making a martial class and caster work in tandem. Her 'cohort' is a fighter charged with protecting her caster. She actually 'argues' with her cohort as to risks, etc. Good roleplay. The only other cohort we regularly have is a Paladin trainee, squire to our semi-regular Paladin. Campaign rule that NO COHORT may be as high a level as the lowest actual played character.

2-Loot gets funky. Does the bodyguard to the Wizard get a share?

3-Our house rule is you can only take a weaker caster cohorts, are built on 15 rather than 20 points and must generally be of the same race.

4-No class with a serious sidekick is eligible for Leadership. Several other 'complicating' feats also fall into this sack. I am subject to this being an Eberron Changeling Wizard with a mutating familiar. 3 different complications. Rangers, some Druids, all Summoners etc., all fall into the sack as well. I really hate to admit it works so well. Then again, our GM is a brute who 'solves complicated characters terminally if players can't. This is my second familiar.

5-pulling bits from many posts above, the game is about the actions of the players, not their 'chorus'. Jason and the Argonauts did include several serious heroes, but the oarsmen were just spear carriers. Scads of folks fought in the Trojan war, but less than a half dozen matter. Leonidas led 300 Spartans, but we never focus on Luther, #287. Can you tell what history I've been reading? Sir Bedaveire is the hero, his squire is...can't remember his name. Nobody wants somebody else to get the kill in on the BBEG, but NOBODY wants some faceless lackey to get that kill.

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kirthfinder is a place to investigate.

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A pair of epic wizards in a duel? An erupting volcano might be relatively 'safe'.

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Finally some folks not glued to the whole evil empire of just label evil Drow. I run mine as more an Aztec race that raid the surface for sentient, sacrificial offerings, eating the dead afterwards in cannibalistic ways. Excess offering stock is eaten alive.


I am so stealing this list! Kewl! Keep it coming.

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My reading of the PAO entry is that it only adds two Types as options for results (dragon, plant), but does not allow fey, outsider, or other unmentioned creature Types. Please note that baleful polymorph only creates animals, not vermin (which means I've been running it wrong for years!).

Thanks for bringing this up.

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Does anyone have a thought or four on Paladin Codes? One size does not fit all anywhere else, and friends run differing codes that better fit the deities of their games, including some LE types.

Lawful good, losing class features for evil acts, and punish those who harm or threaten innocents, etc. are stock, but do you add or subtract?

A friend has assigned an Archetype to each paladin using deity and is hammering 'better' Codes that are closer to the deity in question. The only one I've seen was a justice oriented Code that emphasized LAW over good. The Paladins are LN for the most part, seriously Law focused with a 'mercy' list bereft of the Good ones, Lawful ones being added. While the Order is not 'good, there are no Benefits for Evil types. Another player called the Code 'Lawful good Hardass' and it fits.

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Off track a touch, but I want a well done Eberron Changeling Transmuter class with the transmuting familiar. If it appears on these boards, I might get to play one.

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I see a possible error in your initial thinking. Druids are not committed to returning place A to environmental situation A. Y Druids might be committed to turning all A into Y. J Druids might prefer J or K terrain and feverishly work to convert L into their preferred lands, while K Druids have no particular ax to grind with anyone (except those darned Es!)

In my game, there are numerous sects of Druids with some seriously conflicting outlooks:

Golden Oak-Keep political ties strong to control humanoid population levels under control and prevent over use of the land.

Wild Hunt-Anti-Golden Oak and see a stone atop another as too much urbanization.

Sable Riders (and others)-Evil sacrifice cult.

Green Gate-Hate interfering Outsiders who despoil the world by their very existence. Look up blue/orange ethics.

Ivy-Stolen shamelessly from DC's Poison Ivy.

Ertas-Way too interested in Death and Rebirth. Annoyingly, they tend to self resurrect. These clowns are a recurring body of villains the PCs hate. When the guy remembers the fight were you killed him and laughs that you cannot truly kill him, PCs take umbrage! Their symbol is the one recyclers use, and 'yes', they are big into lower end undead...after a fashion. Skeletons are animated by weeds, etc.

Lords of the Wastes-Think people immune to the effects of the Mana Wastes. Can the 'Lords' title, these are best described as malevolent hermits.

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The roll was made by the GM in order to deny me the same result of a Fighter rolling to hit a foe. The dice told me nothing, the GM did. Why would I announce that something was there? Because he had not taken the die roll from anyone else ever. Maxed out skills with great stats, I was quite capable of making the DCs presented. I saw it as denying me an earned success. Playing out was never a factor, the GM was not playing a level field.

I admit I metagamed, but a GM suddenly taking 'my' action and rolling in secret is bound to raise eyebrows. The next step is moving my miniature for me. After that, I guess I don't even have to show up.

Yes, I'm still peeved about it.

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Kazaan wrote:
10% of lawyers give them all a bad reputation.

99% of lawyers give them all a bad reputation.


Otherwise, spot on!

1-Odd rules require your letting me in on it NOW! If I think its odd and you spring it on me later...punt! No mercy.

2-At home, I try to keep players a level ahead on their toon and try to get explanations for idiocy, er, the proposed future of the character. I use a lot of 3pp and long ago ditched Vancian casting, so I can't always rely on outside help. For this reason, even my players won't ask me to GM when they're short at a Con. My exception is Champions.

3-When I do get blackmailed into running at a con, I delegate out the duties, just as I do at my table. If the player wants to run an odd build, they must produce ALL the weird crap and give you photocopies (even if you have it in your box).

4-A Rules Lawyer vs a Rules Lawyer is almost as much fun as free ice cream and pizza! Do notify security. I'd say confiscate weapons, but when both weigh in past 500, they can squish some folks without a thought.

5-Severely out of order, but always have your 'running library' to hand. My 'fantasy library' is just short of 1100 books and occupy multiple bookcases and over 1200 software files, but my 'running library' is a thumb drive.

6-Know the CORE of what you're running. Period, and no excuses.

7-Most tournaments at Cons are scripted. They have to be. Read through it with ill intent and ask the organizer cruel questions with malevolent intent. He will hate you for it, but you might save the whole thing. An age ago, I found that the last line on each photocopy was missing, saving a GenCon from disaster (it was actually 3 lines, I found out later).

8-That last is crap in an open. You must fall back on 'no' as the go to answer. Well, at least not fear it. A local game is more lasting and must observe the niceties, but the very people thrown out of their local groups gravitate to cons in order to afflict new victims. Fortunately, most gravitate to Munchkin. Unfortunately, the more misfit examples with no real gaming bones seep into PFS. Fortunately, all the PFS poobahs I know ride herd on them. I have been told they are easy to spot and find the rigid structure too confining.

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RainyDayNinja wrote:
Extend Spell would be much better as a rod, even if you have to buy a few of them.

Ack! I just realized what our Pally has been up to! She's using a Rod as the shaft for her Mace! It's always in her hand.

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A friend does the initiative trick with clothes pins, but has player cards glued or pasted to the tops (also has a heavy duty GM screen). One side has the player's character 'GM' cheats' for easy reference and the opposite side has the name in big letters. Monster pins have a few important notes on the GM's side and Greek letters in place of names on the public side. All his regular players are either real Greeks (US born) or were college Greeks, so they have no excuse for not knowing them.

Not being either, I get grief for calling letters by descriptive names, even when I 'know' what they are (delta/triangle, Omega/horseshoe), but I recognize the utility.

These are MtG sized cards and are in sleeves so he can make notes on them as the game goes on, then wash the sleeve clean.

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I have NPClasses basically ignorant of anything past the most common Types they would encounter, while PCClasses get a bit more on Types. Sub-Types are the next step on that path. Favored Enemy would be next. A Class specializing in a particular critter would reach the next level (appropriate KS, FE, etc), recognizing little things like altered abilities, sizes, AC, etc. of a given encountered X.

EG: Goblins in my world are mutation ridden. One is Cyclopean, range penalties and a +4 to Str (from -2 to +2). They tend to be the only Goblins who use two handed weapons other than spears. The Ranger has FE: Goblins and knows this like he knows deer poo. The Wizard has no clue, not even having a vaguely relevant skill.

Please note that just because you've run into X before, does not mean you learned about it. If it did, I should have an inkling about women by now!

A Ranger gets to use his FE bonus on a great number of useful skill checks and in myriad situations!

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Whatever you choose, be up front AND consistent! A past 'dm' would let us roll everything, then suddenly insist that he had to roll. Seeme we almost always failed those...

We had problems when I 'failed' to find a trap and reported that there was a trap, but I couldn't find it to the party. I got docked exp for that one.

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Purple Duck Storeroom: Tiny Monstrous Humanoids ($1.00) $0.50 has six interesting races you might run past your GM. They make good starts for more, but I had my players craft rationales for their existence and place in the world.

at D20Pfsrd and on sale

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Last weekend...

We camped in a clearing between ancient oaks. Middle of the night comes a lightning storm and we wake amid standing menhir (stones) aglow with Druidic runes our 'Druid/Wizard' couldn't read. Major 'first' encounter with a Druid cult we've tangled with in the past few weeks. Turns out the site sent us back to the founding of the cult. Or rather to watch the founding. We watched the originals plant the oaks and woke at dawn. A brief inspection found that the oaks had grown to swallow the stones. Interesting twist on a plot hook.

Anyone know how old an oak is that is 23-25 feet around?Might be important Sunday afternoon...

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Purple Duck (3pp) has at least one book on tiny humanoids. Mine is hiding in my lost files, but they supposedly have a Patreon account with more coming.

A GM I played with back in the Babylonian days had a system for creating differing sizes of races, but I don't remember much of it. A later GM had Familiars set up their own 'race', reproducing due to latent magic. We ran into a talking opossum and squirrel that objected to my having a Familiar! He got an invite to join them once I died!

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Small Caveat: last night, the group gathered for other reasons and I brought up this question. The Elf got the most for #1 and Tiefling #2. Neither got over a third.

The closest we got to a consensus was Gnome being the most despised. About 15 people, the least having only 25+ years playing, and not one Gnome played in any of the combined experience of games, and only two had ever played with a gnome in the party played as an actual person, not cohort or NPC!. I'm the closest having NPC Gnomes as shopkeepers (alchemists) and bankers (Zurich, I played a lot of Illuminati). At the behest of the unanimous group, I dropped them from 'common' to 'rare' (among jokes about medium rare and extra crispy!). Several players wanted them removed entirely!

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1: Great start and I want to see the later versions. They will come.

2: What is the expense of operation? Who can activate? Cost? Security? How much to build one? Are they linked or do you only go one place or even way? ones in 40K pass through primordial chaos (scary) and can draw all manner of oooglies! If they are too 'safe and common place' they will spoil the immersion.

3a: see 2 above

3b/c: I put mine in their own ward, protected from the interference of others, yet safely outside the actual walls. Current game city has it on an exposed platform in a 'dry cistern' that can be flooded. Once the travelers have been cleared, they can pass through a secured gate. Yes, other defenses are there.

4: Fishbourne has a great list, if published before, I probably did a copy/paste for mine. The only addition I have is the (Thewms) TCkey have a built in scry of you going to the guard mage at the other end so they know who's coming. As I also have differing versions of spells, the Elves work the same into spells that go to their hidey holes. I got that one from a player.

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"In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair..."

"At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, a white-haired witch’s hair adds 5 feet to its reach, to a maximum of 30 feet at 20th level."

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I lay the tracks and keep the train running on schedule...I wish!

I run Sandbox and have since 1976. General plots are primarily based on table talk and on occasion get out of hand. This generally produces the best games where players can cut loose. I have much looser House Rules that allow players much greater flexibility, as I want them to entertain me.

The 'main story line' is generally well known to all and the Log (a role taken by a player) is responsible for the player end of advancing plot threads. This is kept in a loose leaf folder and each player draws that job, ensuring all have access to the past and responsibility for the job. On more than one occasion, a moldy old plot line has been dredged up from the dark past and pursued. The next Log Keeper is passed the tome and consults the rest as to the future game focuses. I get notified and work such into the next few games.

Rereading this, that last needs an explanation: a player inquires about X and forgets about it. The 'world' may note that X was of interest to that player (or not), and react. The Pally went on a tear looking for vampires a few games back, but found out there was a different scheme going on. Still, his behavior got around and the Dhampir community are worried he'll turn on them or there might be a real Vampire about. Now the Cleric has heard rumors of local vampires and has started looking for the undead in town, finding that there is a strange fellow working at the butcher shop. Dhampir? Next game, he wants to go roust the bloodsucker!

I use 3x5 index cards that state the thread and note my general thought. As it progresses, more lines are added and referenced to other cards through in game activity. Currently, the party is trying to find who is up to what necromantically in the area and one player owns the cooper shop where special kegs are being built on a contract. He's happy about the work his family is getting, but hasn't realized that these are the very kegs the Necromancers are using to transport raw materials in. This twist was inspired by a wife bringing her husband's books so he wouldn't have to go home. They sat on the kitchen counter for hours before he realized they were HIS! Both cards now have about 3 notes on them and references to the other.

When a card gets near full, I ponder another step in the thread or tying that one off. Colors along the top let me know which are 'dead' and numbers serve to refer to cards. Player generated thread possibilities are generated every session whether they know it or not. The real problem is my utter lack of being an anal retentive about getting this done after each session.

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Favorite core race/why:
3.0 it was Dwarf because it was the best race mechanically locally. Every GM ran a world where Dwarves were CORE, and thus thorough bad asses! Humans were more versatile, etc., but Dwarves had all I wanted for my style of play and then some. The running joke about 'devil takes the hindmost' got stale the first time players started to leave me behind and I noted that I was the sole healer.

3.5 and Pathfinder have seen me shift to Human. Its partially mechanical, but as GMs get better, Humans have become a safer choice. No significant weaknesses and most local games have interesting takes on humans.

Favorite race overall/why:
3,5 Eberron Changelings, as I get to play a wealth of roles in the night's game. My Rogue maxed out disguise and tailoring: versatile clothing for all manner of disguises. My Transmuter has the mutable familiar and has to pull 'face' work in a party where I am the closest to normal. My back-up is a renegade Drow assassin!

Race you can't stand/why:
Drow. I hated them being a treasure cheat in the 70s and have never forgiven TSR. If you're wondering, all their nifty weapons, etc vaporized in sunlight/open air. I still think of them as whiney and underhanded ways to skimp on treasure.

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White haired witches can!

"In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair..."

"At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, a white-haired witch’s hair adds 5 feet to its reach, to a maximum of 30 feet at 20th level."

Our GM ruled that it doesn't stack with size. And 'yes', it came up in game!

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Please re-read my post. Iterative attacks do not enter the equation. I obviously forgot /sarc

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Lemmy wrote:

And what's the difference between not rolling to hit because you don't have a 1 base attack bonus and not rolling to hit because you don't have a 3 base attack bonus?

And if you want to sacrifice player fun and character variety for realism... Well done!


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Claxon wrote:

Spending more skill points doesn't mean roleplay. It just make the system more difficult and cumbersome mechanically, when a lot of classes already suffer from a lack skill points to support such a change as the OP suggests.

I think too many people are conflating the idea that making the system more difficult somehow promotes roleplay.

If the OP wanted to suggest that a player needs to spend time and represent his learning a new language by picking up a book or conversing with someone conversant in the language then that is good roleplay, and at level up the character is allowed to place a rank in linguistics to represent his mastery of a new language. Making you spend 5 skill points to become fully proficient in a language isn't roleplay. It's just creating a punitive system that punishes virtually everyone.

Obviously you are not reading my posts.

Each Class grants at least one language point and that is all that is required to communicate. Additional points provide fluency, casting, etc. As for 'difficult and cumbersome', it is based on the game's core skill system and not a radical departure from it.

I guess by you complaint about the punitive nature of buying ranks that you disapprove of the way skills are handled as well? And few of my languages require more than a point for most folks' purposes. A single point is my equivalent in both French and German, if not more. Most of my languages do not have magic vocabularies, nor power words or phrases. Goblin is but 1, as is each lizardman and Orc. No magical tongue is less than 3, such as ancient Akero, which grants a +1 DC to Necro spells, but with disadvantages (why it is no longer used).

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