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Quinley Basdel

Buri's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 3,469 posts. 1 review. 1 list. No wishlists. 5 Pathfinder Society characters.


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KaiserDM wrote:
But how would a new player even know that?

Probably much like I did. My group has been solidly playing Pathfinder since beta and before that my own experience with 3.5 was kept to just a few sessions. I've become the designated DM to introduce 5th. If you read into the setting material instead of trying to just find the 'latest' setting book on amazon and clicking buy, you'll discover the same facts I have minus the SCN geography bit because that's in the Hoard of the Dragon Queen book. But, as these posts get rolled up into the communal knowledge of the Internet, it will be more common knowledge.

Hello to you who found this post using a search engine. :)

Landon Winkler wrote:
For example, I'm pretty sure Neverwinter still got destroyed[..]

False. It's still there and doing well.


ShinHakkaider wrote:
I'd say that if you're running a pre-written adventure of any kind without reading it thoroughly first, you're doing yourself and your players a disservice.

You completely missed my point and strawmanned your own. The point I was making is that you need those different books to run those adventures effectively. If you're running an adventure tied to a new book, it's not going to be on the PRD on release day. Paizo has yet to be on top of things to that degree. It usually takes a week up to several months depending on how busy they are. Internet connections aren't always a given either. I'm in a major city and there are plenty of places where you can't get either wireless because they're private or cell due to horrible building geometry. So, even if you generally prep at home with a connection, if you need to game at a store (super common and again you can't assume their wireless is available publicly) you can't always do an impromptu check on a rule. You're left with needing to buy the requisite book if you have to deal with any of these issues or you can't effectively run the adventure.


Ah, but it's been stated for a while Ao is rewriting the tablets of fate undoing the vast majority of the 4th edition changes. I can speak first hand that at least the Sword Coast North region is identical geographically to 3rd.


They're in new condition and even have the new book smell. I know because I've gotten the FR 3.0 book myself. Careful, though, as the PF CRB is fast approaching 5 years old. Does that mean Paizo needs to do something 'new?'


sunshadow21 wrote:
Older players will have that material, yes, but[...]

Say, what?


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I always remind GMs, you don't have to know the ins and outs of every class that exists. You just need to be passably familiar with the 4-6 classes that will be sat at your table. If something seems hinky just say: "Can you show that to me in the book/PRD?" A simple search function should answer most questions at the table fairly quickly.

This is a great concept but falls apart pretty quick when Paizo uses all those new resources in APs. If you run PFS then you need a general awareness of everything as you have no guarantees as what's in one session to another.


Playing devil's advocate, PDFs are not meant for books. It's a generic document format. Ebooks, though, DO have a specific format and are optimized for that purpose. I agree DRM shenanigans could be a pain, but they could also be doing it for format compliance. Plus, accessibility is always a concern when it comes to books which I would think ebooks probably do better than PDFs.


Don't under estimate prehensile hair. Also, never under estimate the ability to make undead your b!$%$ via threnodic and thanatopic metamagic. The healing hexes can be meh but if you ever need it then it's great. Lastly, always interesting is the witch who seemingly does a bit of everything. Why? Because the witch mythos is about doing wierd stuff so it's always good when you can make someone go 'they can do that?' A 'generalist' witch is almost always effective, imo. That said, generally stay away from the ward hex.


Well, push come to shove, you can always scan your books and run an OCR on the pages to create a searchable index. Most people don't want to do that, though.


I'm iffy with Morningstar. They've said they'll store the data locally to keep performance high. However, that's no guarantee you can extract or use that data in a human readable form if something goes wrong. If it has an export article feature of some kind, then that will go a long way to easing that worry. Even so, if you'd need to do that manually across all chapters/entries then it'd be cumbersome. I like my digital tools, but, I agree that I like having control over my purchases as well.


Wizards could be doing better in this regard from what I've seen. Though, they could be setting up the infrastructure to do this on their own without needing DTRPG.

That said, Paizo isn't a paragon of 21st century technology either. Having come from the digital side of printing and publishing (yes, both), they could be doing much more. But, at least they do provide PDFs.


Hmm... even so, sunshadow21, I must agree with the sentiment in that thread that the Sundering reverting most of 4e's changes makes 3rd edition material extremely relevant. Some places might have changed, some people dead from old age, but it's largely the same. The region map of the Sword Coast North in Hoard of the Dragon Queen is almost identical to the 3rd edition FR fold out map. As a setting, nothing is needed.

It's not like Golarion where a place hasn't been covered so new material is an urgent need. Rather, and especially so with FR, it's just an evolution on an already established place. New material is always nice, absolutely, but simply supplying adventures in the mean time will do without Wizards needing to over commit resources. Depending on what they want to do with the setting, I would wager a simple 'Welcome to the Realms' style gazetteer that simply highlights changes could do well instead of a full setting book trying to explain everything from scratch yet again.

Seeing what they've done with 5e, I certainly hope they give the settings a full treatment. However, because they're so well known and supported already, it's far from required. You can get all those settings books new from amazon for about $20-30 each. That's very reasonable to get up to speed on the setting of your choice.

What 5e needs more than anything else is adventures. Settings are already largely known.


If true, that's amazing. Do you have a URL to the thread?


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sunshadow21 wrote:
To me, the biggest flag of concern is that they don't even have an idea of how to do a campaign guide for FR yet.

This is utterly baseless. A lack of announcement in no way implies a lack of vision or intent. They've decades of experience in business let alone tabletop gaming or even Dungeons and Dragons. It is much more likely they, in fact, do have a roadmap for the settings and certainly so for one of their largest to date.


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Not being able to criticize a company is part of the us vs them dynamic. That comment simply highlights that. It's a problem how?


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I think the position that Paizo is or has beat Wizards in all segments is simply wrong. Wizards dominates the electronic gaming space if not by sales (which is already many, many millions from over a decade of experience) then by mere virtue of Paizo's lack of participation therein as PfO isn't even released yet. They're only relatively weak in the table top segment, which, as its own market is smaller. So, not all battlefields are on the same level here. Paizo is fighting up hill in the electronic arena, but, yes, their tabletop presence is strong. Don't assume that as soon as Pathfinder Online is released that it's going to be a hit and Wizards will be scrambling. That's an unrealistic outlook.

The Neverwinter MMO is thriving, reviews be damned. I logged in just last week and easily got a pick up group for instances and saw zones very healthily populated outside of instances. PfO has a lot to prove. Just because they have Ryan who worked for CCP Games for a time doesn't mean the mix of game he's making for the Pathfinder IP will be a hit. That's an alchemy no one has come even close to mastering.

Make no mistake that Wizards has more muscle to flex here if not from money then from sheer experience in the market and if not from that then from a more diverse product offering. They're anything but weak. I could see them still thriving off just IP royalties and other product lines and ending tabletop D&D development altogether. That's a luxury Paizo simply doesn't have. They need success in Pathfinder/Golarion or they die or transform into a fundamentally different entity. Then, there's the ability for Wizards to get access to Hasbro's pockets which makes them more intractible as a corporation meaning they're not going anywhere.

Those are just facts. What I find personally interesting is the us/them dynamic on these boards. There can be no inbetween, and Paizo is seemingly king of all tabletop. All other signs that could even potentially endanger that view is badwrongfun. Paizo has done well for themselves and has a lot to be proud of. I think there's some deification of them, though, as if they are nigh infallible. A lot of this comes from the Paizo leadership. Which, if pride cometh before a fall, then they better brace themselves.


GreyWolfLord wrote:
Sometimes I like quick advancment...but does that seem just a little quicker than normal. Maybe the first few levels are supposed to be like that though.

Well... they are. Have you looked at the experience chart?

GreyWolfLord wrote:
I actually DID play the Rogue. Was out done in skills by a Bard, outdone in battle by the Barbarian, and really DO feel like the Rogue isn't that impressive...BUT I DID give it a shake.

Rogues get more features around skills. They can add double their proficiency bonus to them, for example. They can also keep up with a greatsword-wielding fighter in round for round damage. It sounds like the bard was better optimized or rolled better stats, and I can't speak for your combat prowess but I can say the class itself is fine damage wise. You may have felt like you did because the barbarian tradeoff is a little vulnerability for increased damage output. That doesn't make them weak.


Scott, in these lands nary a flight can blemish Paizo's visage.

But really, Paizo has a long way to come in the electronic gaming space. The Neverwinter IP alone is massive and the games are still selling on Gog. Plus, the Neverwinter MMO reached 2 million players last year. It's also about to come to the Xbox One.

Paizo's stance is anything but assured. I don't think they'll be simply shoved to the way side any kind of soon or even at all, but it's always telling when you look at how an organization spends its money. They're doing what they're doing because they're fighting which means not even they are 100% in their position. If they were, they'd do better to spend elsewhere.

Truth be told, some of their line up over the next year miffs me a bit because it feels like they've been intentionally sandbagging juicy material in anticipation just for this period. Some seriously erroneous systems are only now getting addressed in Pathfinder Unchained in spite of issues that were years old years ago. It's simply repetition that competition is good.

It's a great time for us, folks. Enjoy these next couple years. The quality of table top gaming is about to be second to none.


When you go to paizo.com/pathfinderRPG, clicking on the Messageboard link takes you to the forums as expected. However, they're already loaded if you scroll beneath the product listing. If you put in some javascript to just hide the rest of the page content to shift the forum up and change the subnav to load the messageboard links, I'd think that'd save you a lot of duplicated work. I, for one, go to the above paizo/PFRPG as a shortcut to get to the PFRPG messageboards and notice that forums already load when the product section was a bit slow loading one day. That, or stop loading the message boards on the Pathfinder url and just maintain the Messageboard link as is.


SSL processing overhead in modern server hardware is miniscule. That's no longer a good reason to not do it.


Claxon wrote:
So my problem is that "regardless of local conditions" doesn't have a clear meaning.

I don't see how it's not clear. The phrase "regardless of x" is another way of saying that x doesn't matter.

Merriam Webster wrote:

Full Definition of REGARDLESS

: despite everything <went ahead with their plans regardless>


Regardless of local conditions means exactly that. A caster who can cast wish can go wherever they please pretty much. I would even say they can teleport right next to a deity. Though, in the very next instant that deity could expel/destroy them. Nothing stops something from happening the very next instant, like, say, a symbol spell activating. But, it could prevent a teleport trap from working because a) it's not a teleport and b) the next instant after you arrive you're no longer 'teleporting' so there's nothing to trap.


At higher levels that save can be impossible. But, that feels right to me.


Matthew Downie wrote:
If I ban some of the more abusable magics [...]teleporting to places you've only scried on[...]

Ugh, why ban them?! Sending your caster to a similar but way off base site is such a great in-game, rpable teaching moment.


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The thing that gets me is that they want fighters et al. to be able to cut mountains in half and such. The wizard can do nothing like that. Sure, they can create a pocket dimension but it's tiny. Fireballs are only 40ft in diameter. Their spell for actually moving earth can only handle up to a couple tons of dirt in a few hundred sq feet tops. So, before any rebalance can be done, I think we need some honest discussion around the wizard's limits, because they do have limits and they are many.


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Well, you can bleed out for minutes in Pathfinder until you die depending on your Con score. :/ Plus, you just need a single save there. In 5th, you need 3 successes to pull you out of the threat of death.


No


Tacticslion wrote:

Because one uses the rules and allows you to make coherent self-consistent stories.

The other is just random.

Again, for Golarion deities, that's just how it works. Paizo has contradicted themselves many times with the gods yet maintain the line that there's some cosmic agreement of noninterference that's just not lip service. It's explained by James Jacobs as stuff not even we as metagamey players can understand.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
At this juncture, there should be an impartial system of determining success or failure, rather than the DM simply saying "god A wins the match."

If you're trying to model Golarion deities, then that's exactly how it would work. PC vs Sarenrae? PC loses every time. The thing you'll need to tackle that is probably more tricky is that while deities are above non deities in almost every way, among themselves there is a definite structure. For example, Pharasma could roflstomp most every deity in one on one combat save maybe Rovagug. Azathuth, I hear, could similarly roflstomp Rovagug and, by extension, likely Pharasma, too. That's all if you're trying to describe and codify Golarion deities. If you're not going after that and just a generic "here be god stats" system, then ignore this.


At 0 HP you need to start making death saves. Are you wanting outright death?


You should look at the arcane trickster. Think wizard with sneak attack dice. Plus, the assassin subclass has save or die attacks, iirc.

You're right on just needing advantage.

Though, you shouldn't compare a base class with another base class and try to sneak in their subclass features. That's a tad much Schrodinger for me.

At the end of the day, most any character can have any skill combination you want. It's not about skills, to me, though. It's about class features.


Awesome. I like when things stay true to what they are.


All the rogue needs to get round-for-round sneak attacks is to have an enemy of its target be within 5 feet of their target. It doesn't even have to be your ally. The other condition is to have surprise. If you have any kind of tank/front-liner then a rogue in your group should be getting them off pretty consistently.


The Tarrasque isn't immortal, eh?


Bounded Accuracy is that all threats are potentially viable. A town could band together to drive off a dragon, a horde of CR 9 (iirc) orcs could pose a genuine threat to even level 20 PCs, and so on. Try as I might, though, I couldn't find a mirror for the article. Try your luck but here's the original source before the site redesign: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120604

This link has a large quote from it, though.

Jacob Saltband wrote:
Only draw back to that is that a rogue can only sneak attack once around. Kinda limits the damage out put.

And? All crits are only x2. So, a greatsword fighter only get 4d6 on a natural 20. A rogue can 2d6 much more reliably. On a crit, that's 4d6. As soon as 3rd level, before the fighter gets their extra attack, that becomes 6d6. When fighters do get their extra attack at 5th, the rogue's sneaking crit is 8d6, on par with the critting fighter. The normal attack being 4d6 for the fighter and 4d6 for the rogue round after round. So, they can match greatsword wielding fighters in round for round damage plus extra class features. What more do you want?

Looking at level 20, the rogue can get in a round for round output of 11d6, 22d6 on a crit. A fighter will be doing 8d6 normal, 16d6 crit. Some fighter variants can let you get in even more attacks per round making that more even but the base fighter vs base rogue, the rogue actually comes out on top for damage.


I don't see the fuss over wizards being able to hit something with a stick. Bounded Accuracy by design means everything is vulnerable ergo everything can potentially do harm on something else. If you have a problem with that then you have a problem with one of the fundamentals of the system to the point where I'd challenge you to reevaluate you wanting to play it. That's not an easy change to simply house rule and keep clean.

That said, wizards only ever get one attack per round even at level 20. Your attack progression depends on your class as well as what you can do when you attack. The wizard gets no frills there.


GreyWolfLord wrote:
Can't see any reason to play a Rogue, just play a criminal or other background for proficiency with Theives tools and you are set.

Sneak attack multiplies on a crit. I'd think that'd be a very good reason.


I don't understand what you mean by kid gloves and spells. Charm Person, for example, works for an entire hour if they fail their initial save. Blasty spells are very blasty from the moment you get them and then are more blasty if you prep them in higher level slots. Counterspell is a reaction spell that automatically succeeds if the spell if of the same level or lower than the slot you prepared it in and higher with a check. The same is true with dispel magic. Wish can duplicate all spells from any class of 8th level and lower for free as it only requires a verbal component and that kind of "it just happens" stuff is common with higher level spells. Foresight gives all attacks against you disadvantage and makes you immune to being surprised for 8 hours.

So, it's rather simple to create a caster that can hit you very hard and lock you down. Was there something else about spells that you found kid glovey?

As to martials, rogues are actually pretty sweet being able to close to attack and back out without provoking round after round. Fighters can get a metric f-ton of attacks. Each class can be very flavorful with backgrounds and just roleplaying out your abilities with the descriptive text provided.

Again, I'm not sure what you meant by kid gloves. If you get ambushed then you're likely to lose a fight if your attacker is anything close to onpar with you. Then, there are enemies. Many dragons, for example, get legendary actions, which all 'legendary' creatures get, that let them do more things per round than just their turn. For example, several times a round they can take extra actions after another characters turn such as making an attack or other thing as is in their write up. After that there are lair actions that make them even more formidable if you face them in their home territory. It can be downright brutal.


Quite easy actually. At level 6, if you do the necromacy wizard, you get Undead Thralls which gives you additional undead, gives your undead additional HP, and your proficiency bonus on their attacks. At level 14 you can just point at an undead and take control of it even if it was made by someone else. Plus, the actual spells like animate dead are just tasty.


I can't help but question your campaigns, then. You can only use it effectively if you've seen a place at least once or have an accurate drawing of an area if you're talking about greater teleport. Have you tried not pulling punches on those failure rolls? Even with greater teleport, given its range is unlimited, a drawn picture could easily land you in an area that looks very similar to the intended destination. Afterall, if you just use scry on a spot which gets just a target and its immediate surroundings, you gotta ask how many caves, forests, libraries, etc. exist that could look pretty much exactly like what they just scried on in the whole of the material plane. Plus, if it's vital enough for a caster to teleport to, then I'd think it'd be a magical place itself the majority of the time. Things like teleport trap exist for that reason. In the end, though, there are a lot of ways to handle it that don't marginalize your campaign.


I don't understand your hate on teleport. If you're up to enumerating why you don't like it then let's discuss it.


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sunshadow21 wrote:
The wizard is still the softest and easiest to kill target on the field even without spells making him a major threat. Add in that I've been seeing indications that controlling the battlefield and enemy movement is going to be difficult at best, and going after the caster doesn't lose any appeal, it just now gives different reasons to do so. It will be interesting to see how things shake out over time, but the problem hasn't been removed, just shifted, from what we have seen so far.

There are a couple devastatingly effective spells at higher levels. One example, can't remember the name, is an 8 hour duration spell that makes all attacks against you take disadvantage and you can't be surprised. It will be interesting to see how it plays out but those gems are still there.


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Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Making casters kind of useless, that's new. Unless you want to be a wizard who wears armor and swings a sword, you can do that now. But reshaping reality on a whim? They don't do that kind of thing anymore.

They still can. Note that 5e wish only has a verbal component now. Spells are overall more robust and singularly more powerful than in previous editions but spell slots are what's precious. On a stretch of downtime, though, that can still be 10+ wishes done between sessions. Plus, you can actually create wealth with it to the tune of 25k gp per casting.

To add to the thread though, each class basically has its own spell list even between the sorcerer and wizard. Some features in other classes let you cherry pick a spell from different lists here or there, though.


The game store I most frequent has heavy PFS support and participation from the area. The store owner doubled his 5e PHB order from what he originally anticipated it to be hoping that would be enough to meet demand from the feedback he has been seeing. This is the kind of store you can get 1st edition, original print complete with yellowed pages kind of store, though. Even so, given the relative compactness of 5e, I feel most at ease buying previous edition material and dropping systems in without disturbing other rules and balance. I can't say the same about 3.x/PF.


Read the basic rules PDF. You can choose which skills you are proficient in from your class.


Kthulhu wrote:
In high-level games prior to 3e, wizards were very powerful, but some of the ways they are most powerful in d20 games were an absolute joke. If your 20th level wizard cast a save-or-die spell against anything vaguely level-appropriate, then you got to watch the GM roll a 4, tell you it made the save, and then have your face eaten by said monster. If you went full-nova and exhausted all your spells, you didn't have them all back an hour after waking up the next day...you had to spend several days studying your spellbooks to fill up those slots again (10 minutes per spell level for every single spell...a single 9th level spell ate 1.5 hours of preparation time). You didn't max out Concentration so that it would be almost impossible to fizzle while casting a spell, you hoped none of the bad guys were packing 1 hp damage darts. You didn't auto-learn 2x whatever spell you wanted every time you leveled, you picked a single spell every time you got access to a new level of spells, you rolled to see if you could learn it, and if you failed, you moved down to your 2nd choice and repeated the process.

This makes me want to pick up a 2e PHB.


ruemere wrote:
No APs.

False. Hoard of the Dragon Queen is out now which rolls into Rise of Tiamat.


From the advice given in the PHB, if you're in such a stacked position that you'd genuinely get multiple advantages, then you probably shouldn't even ask for a roll.


The table dynamics at no table I've been at work that way, Scavion. A particular book is either an option or its not. Joe, Maggie, and Patrick don't get to use different books than Adam, Paul, or Harriette.

I don't understand that reasoning for 'advanced' books, anyway. I can see why they would be used as verbiage in the title, they in no way require advanced knowledge of the game system. You could essentially cut and paste a base class from the APG to the Classes chapter in the CRB and be fine. The racial options work much the same for the core races. So, in practice, all that is there is more text and options that, to the vast majority, don't predicate themselves on features in the CRB or in other texts as they do try to be more or less stand alone resources.


Take specific over general here. Nanites states a particular course of action while the general rule is to include all modifiers.

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