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Quinley Basdel

Buri's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 3,534 posts. 1 review. 1 list. No wishlists. 5 Pathfinder Society characters.

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A lesson Paizo can take away from 5th/Wizards is there writing style. Some people are annoyed by the fluff mixed with the crunch but, honestly, with my first time DMing D&D it was phenomenal. From just reading the PHB and a little on Forgotten Realms, I've roleplayed the setting and its inhabitants better from just a few days of reading of thought work than I ever did with Golarion and Pathfinder in spite of years of exposure. I could probably go back and do better with Golarion now but Wizard's writing almost narrates a movie while giving you mechanics. It's much easier to digest than the hard separation Paizo currently does.

I thought this was an abberation with 5th but then I looked back to the 2e DMG and 3.0 FR setting. Everything I read was genuinely written better. Though, it could be those resources cover much more mundane topics. It's not all fantasitical events and powerful creatures. There are articles on bartering systems and various economies. I felt like it was trying to improve me as a DM rather than just giving me material to use in games.

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Wow, Ross was pretty passive/aggressive there. If Paizo dropped the ball on editing, then they dropped the ball. The take away is 'do better' and not 'improve my process for me.' There is always room to do better. If not, then you've reached the end of your ability to compete and might as well close doors. If that means releasing a couple fewer products per year, then so be it. Nothing Wizards can do will drive away their customer base faster than if Paizo's product quality plummets.

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I like the liberal use of concentration mostly because it takes away that wizards and other full casters are near gods. If you can just rifle off spells one after another without consequence then you might as well be a demigod, start a religion, and start granting spells. The concentration bit makes magic important (potentially even critical) in your spell selection, makes the caster pay attention to make sure they got off the right spells when the situation calls for it, and is a crticial reminder that, yes, in fact, they are very mortal and limited even though they can cast wishes. Some of the individual spells are debateable, sure, but I wouldn't change the precept at all.

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Nathanael Love wrote:

All that sort of stuff wasn't enough for people to consider martials balanced to casters when they ALSO got much higher base bonuses to hit?

Aren't martials just even further behind now that Wizards also get the same attack bonuses?

You sound like you need to read the Basic PDF. You have badly conceived notions about the system and are judging based on them.

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Zhayne wrote:
I'm reasonably sure no gamer, anywhere, has ever liked any game system just-as-it-is. I'm also willing to bet that every GM has some rule that they've overlooked or didn't know existed, and thus no game system has ever BEEN played just-as-it-is.

For a long, long time I did just this. I enjoyed RAW and welcomed most anyone because of that. I liked that, as long as I stuck to the shrinkwrapped rules, anyone could come play without mental shifts in how 'this is how I play.' The game was the game. Then, the creep in from the PFS crowd practically dictating explicit rewrites of features of that game began dictating how I and those I played with play. It doesn't matter if it was just a few feats. That's now a crossed line, and it's one I can't accept. At that point I mentally walked away while still playing the games. Once I finish out a Rise of the Runelords campaign, and an exception wrt Wrath of the Righteous becuase I have yet to play a mythic character, I'm likely done with Pathfinder overall.

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wakedown wrote:
I'm not sure how generally aware folks are of the 5e changes, so I'll repeat a couple here since I think movement is more interesting in 5e because of the action economy overhaul.

That's part of my frustration. It's clear that many people critiqueing 5e haven't actually read it, followed its development, or even looked at the many legend and lore articles behind its concepts. Most of them come across as if they're working on rumor, hyperbole, and a passing glance at the Basic rules PDF at best.

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Perhaps the clincher for me in the 'complexity' side of things is that you can have a metric f-ton of closely related feats yet be completely mechanically innept in a different yet still very related skill set. That's the major failing in Pathfinder. That's also not complexity. It's a sign of unchecked system bloat.

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The thing that annoys me about these quite usually passive aggressive 'comparisons' between PF and 5th is that they're comparing a single core book to the myriad of hardbacks, splats, and APs Paizo has done over several years. It's like having one dude trying to fight an army.

For those that criticize the number of options, did you honestly expect Wizards to release a half dozen rule books and multiple complete adventures at once? The first book's purpose is to lay a foundation on which to build other things and other things are coming. I'd challenge you to restrict future games to CRB only and enjoy the miniscule options by comparison.

The main thing that stands out to me in comparison of the two is that PF's feats give me +2 to something or let me not provoke AoOs by level 3 while 5th's feats let me bypass energy resistances and cast spells in response to AoOs by level 4. Fighters get caster goodies by them as well as early as first level or even without them depending on race without cheapening those who are full casters and vice versa. In Pathfinder, pulling off that kind of mix takes SEVERAL levels minimum. This comes down to matters of taste.

Being based on D&D and d20, the base feel of races, classes, and spells are largely the same between each.

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Kthulhu wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
insaneogeddon wrote:
Everyone gets like 30 bonus feats
You lost me with this. What are you talking about? Feats are rare since you have to choose between an ability bump or a feat. Sure you can take all feats, but do you really want your primary state to be a 15? If you're a spellcaster that means your DCs are 12. That's pretty low and easy to make the save (granted, not when you roll like me, but still).
I think he's saying you get things for free that would be feats in PF, but I'm not sure.

Gods forbid! You mean characters might be able to both pick their nose AND scratch their ass as early as first level?

Obviously a broken system.

No way, man. The broken part is that you can open doors without spending a move action. How will GMs cope?!

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memorax wrote:
Agreed and seconded. So far I'm liking what I see. Not sure if I will ever run let alone play it. For the first time in a long time I want to play a Paladin. I do think that 5E may give PF a run for it's money.

Holy crap yes. Paladins don't have to be mindless husks of a god anymore. They can be dark, brooding, and seething with hate, even. Most of the 'why can't paladins do/be x' is solved in 5th's rendition.

That makes me curious, though. Given all the critiques and complaints of Pathfinder here, I wonder if Wizards took those into consideration with the intent of drawing in those who shared those views.

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Mike Franke wrote:
I'm sure someone has already said this, but what makes you think we aren't already playing the second edition of pathfinder? Look at the evolution of the classes over the last couple of years plus totally new mechanics like grit and arcane pools not to mention the many errata.

Oh hell yeah. I made a thread about this where the Pathfinder Defense Force came out with gusto full of 'where's ur proof?' responses and hyperbolic statements. It got locked before a dozen or so comments. This is absolutely their current strategy. They also issue errata on long time fundamentals of the game for current balance issues, and push it all out as if it's just business as usual all the while trying to say 'oh, no, totes not making a new edition of Pathfinder.'

To me it's utter b&*~~+!&. It's underhanded and ruins any sense of what 'playing Pathfinder' means. When that kind of BS is acceptable then it dilutes the system and co-opts the vast majority of the user base in their new way of doing things even though someone could very well have liked the got into the game for how things were originally done. How? PFS which also happens to be the probably the main reason for the errata in the first place. Those guys have to enforce the current rule set and when those players play outside of PFS there's this dissonance and questions so either gaming groups adapt or face maybe losing players. THEN! The PFS folks complain about the current rules and push changes to make it the way they want because GMs get a hair up their ass because they have to actually think about how to run a game. It then turns into a huge ball of nepotism because the PFS folks like to be chummy from the bottom up.

It's a massive churn that over time makes the game utterly horrible compared to what it was. It's one of the main reasons why I hate Pathfinder in its current implementation. Not so much for the system itself but how Paizo has come to treat it. It's like they can't be confident in their own product so why should I? Then, I have to put up with needless nonsense from my PF gaming group because they're forced to change how they play and naturally I get drug along with them and when I try to play the game I bought I get questioned, rules debates happen, and it's just a s+#@ty experience.

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Triphoppenskip wrote:
Sure let me quit my job, stop preparing meals, drop all house work etc. that way I'll have plenty of time to devote to my hobby. Lol if only.

Dude(tte), if you gotta quit your job and stop eating just to convert some monster stat arrays and reading an AP book then you either a) work and eat too much or b) play Pathfinder way too much. Either way, lol, that's some dedication.

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Lord Mhoram wrote:
Self Selection bias is bad enough. That is just icing.

It's a great way to basically do what you want with the guise of public endorsement, though!

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sunshadow21 wrote:
To me, the biggest flag of concern is that they don't even have an idea of how to do a campaign guide for FR yet.

This is utterly baseless. A lack of announcement in no way implies a lack of vision or intent. They've decades of experience in business let alone tabletop gaming or even Dungeons and Dragons. It is much more likely they, in fact, do have a roadmap for the settings and certainly so for one of their largest to date.

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Not being able to criticize a company is part of the us vs them dynamic. That comment simply highlights that. It's a problem how?

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I think the position that Paizo is or has beat Wizards in all segments is simply wrong. Wizards dominates the electronic gaming space if not by sales (which is already many, many millions from over a decade of experience) then by mere virtue of Paizo's lack of participation therein as PfO isn't even released yet. They're only relatively weak in the table top segment, which, as its own market is smaller. So, not all battlefields are on the same level here. Paizo is fighting up hill in the electronic arena, but, yes, their tabletop presence is strong. Don't assume that as soon as Pathfinder Online is released that it's going to be a hit and Wizards will be scrambling. That's an unrealistic outlook.

The Neverwinter MMO is thriving, reviews be damned. I logged in just last week and easily got a pick up group for instances and saw zones very healthily populated outside of instances. PfO has a lot to prove. Just because they have Ryan who worked for CCP Games for a time doesn't mean the mix of game he's making for the Pathfinder IP will be a hit. That's an alchemy no one has come even close to mastering.

Make no mistake that Wizards has more muscle to flex here if not from money then from sheer experience in the market and if not from that then from a more diverse product offering. They're anything but weak. I could see them still thriving off just IP royalties and other product lines and ending tabletop D&D development altogether. That's a luxury Paizo simply doesn't have. They need success in Pathfinder/Golarion or they die or transform into a fundamentally different entity. Then, there's the ability for Wizards to get access to Hasbro's pockets which makes them more intractible as a corporation meaning they're not going anywhere.

Those are just facts. What I find personally interesting is the us/them dynamic on these boards. There can be no inbetween, and Paizo is seemingly king of all tabletop. All other signs that could even potentially endanger that view is badwrongfun. Paizo has done well for themselves and has a lot to be proud of. I think there's some deification of them, though, as if they are nigh infallible. A lot of this comes from the Paizo leadership. Which, if pride cometh before a fall, then they better brace themselves.

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The thing that gets me is that they want fighters et al. to be able to cut mountains in half and such. The wizard can do nothing like that. Sure, they can create a pocket dimension but it's tiny. Fireballs are only 40ft in diameter. Their spell for actually moving earth can only handle up to a couple tons of dirt in a few hundred sq feet tops. So, before any rebalance can be done, I think we need some honest discussion around the wizard's limits, because they do have limits and they are many.

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Well, you can bleed out for minutes in Pathfinder until you die depending on your Con score. :/ Plus, you just need a single save there. In 5th, you need 3 successes to pull you out of the threat of death.

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sunshadow21 wrote:
The wizard is still the softest and easiest to kill target on the field even without spells making him a major threat. Add in that I've been seeing indications that controlling the battlefield and enemy movement is going to be difficult at best, and going after the caster doesn't lose any appeal, it just now gives different reasons to do so. It will be interesting to see how things shake out over time, but the problem hasn't been removed, just shifted, from what we have seen so far.

There are a couple devastatingly effective spells at higher levels. One example, can't remember the name, is an 8 hour duration spell that makes all attacks against you take disadvantage and you can't be surprised. It will be interesting to see how it plays out but those gems are still there.

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Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Making casters kind of useless, that's new. Unless you want to be a wizard who wears armor and swings a sword, you can do that now. But reshaping reality on a whim? They don't do that kind of thing anymore.

They still can. Note that 5e wish only has a verbal component now. Spells are overall more robust and singularly more powerful than in previous editions but spell slots are what's precious. On a stretch of downtime, though, that can still be 10+ wishes done between sessions. Plus, you can actually create wealth with it to the tune of 25k gp per casting.

To add to the thread though, each class basically has its own spell list even between the sorcerer and wizard. Some features in other classes let you cherry pick a spell from different lists here or there, though.

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Chris Lambertz wrote:
Removed some back and forth sniping and responses to it. This thread has been unraveling quite a bit, let's bring it back around to the rules question, please.


Can you spend your wealth to gain advantage in this scenario, yes or no? If not, then PC wealth is out of the window. If yes, Cthulu gets to spend his treasure value to be genericly outfitted and not for this particular fight whatsoever.

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If I were to run Big C he would absolutely have an array of abodes and toys lined up as anything would that's been around since pretty much the beginning of time. If he were hellbent on trying to actually kill you I might not even let you roll initiative. You just die especially if you're not mythic. If you are, then I'll describe his opening volley and ask if you have anything to handle that. No? Dead. Yes? Roll initiative.

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To say this trick works on Cthulu is to make him utterly inept. Sure, if he's not responding, just shows up fresh on the scene like a stroll through a garden, sure, you can surprise him. However, as I've shown in the other thread about this he gets mythic contingency. That's 6 spells he basically has on him for 30 day stretches of time. With a fairly simpl contingency command like "should anything kill me cast x just before" and poof he's got something at the ready.

Plus, the double standard in tactics is utterly assinine. He's got CWI just like most any wizard but for some reason he can't use it even though he's marked as having TRIPLE treasure? That's just stupid. Basically, we've got a mythic wishing monstronsity that can crank out more/better magic items than a level 20 wizard and you think the wizard will win? I smell some poo on the mere premise. THEN, he's got hundreds of HP more and boat load of abilities and racial features that already make him a level 20 dude in his own right but he still loses? You gotta be kidding me. Point is, Cthulu can act like Shrodinger's wizard every much as Shrodinger's wizard can but better.

With his fluff that ties him close to gods, something no theorycrafted character has out of the gate, you STILL think he's such a push over even for a level 20 caster? Please...

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He can make wondrous items that let him cast whatever spell he wants.

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ulgulanoth wrote:
Also, doesn't Cthulhu need to read the runes for them to go off? He is an eldrich horror, he doesn't have time to read!

That's the point of the intentionally failed dispel. That can trigger them.

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Cranky Dog wrote:

Extra detail we haven't covered yet: Greater Dispel Magic's range.

Spell range is 100ft + 10ft/lvl
Nalfeshnee's CL: 12th
Max range: 220ft (240ft if you include the Area of Effect's 20ft radius).
Cthulhu's distance: 300ft (from center position of Cthulhu)

There's 60ft missing somewhere (80ft-20ft size from center of Cthulhu)

You'll have to choose what you're doing, moving or readying, with that standard action from being staggered.

Cthulu's range, though, is 400ft.

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In my best Bane voice

It doesn't matter that he has no Mythic Spellcasting ability. All that matters is what he is.

Great Old One wrote:
Mythic (Su) A Great Old One has Mythic Power (10/day, Surge +1d12) and counts as a 10th-rank Mythic creature. A Great Old One can use any of its spell-like abilities as the Mythic versions of those spells (if a Mythic version of that spell exists), expending Mythic Power as normal. It can also expend Mythic Power to use the augmented versions of these spell-like abilities.

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Don't forget all spells of 7th level and lower are included in that, again, in their mythic versions. Explosive runes, daze, etc. are not issues. With the trick I mentioned with mythic contingency he still has his wish available to him because that SOB lasts 30 days per casting.

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Reposting this here because it's totally something a CL 30 caster would do:

I just had a thought. Has anyone considered the idea that Cthulu casts mythic version of his spells? That means by spending mythic power he can activate any wizard spell of 8th level as mythic. This let's you do things like mythic contingency to have 6 spells on you at the same time for 30 days each. I'd use that to set up a gtr teleport and series of gates to call in reinforcements just before any effect that would kill me if I were him just for starters. Then there's mythic wish's alter fate. You know that save you need? It's a 1 cuz mythic.

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I just had a thought. Has anyone considered the idea that Cthulu casts mythic version of his spells? That means by spending mythic power he can activate any wizard spell of 8th level as mythic. This let's you do things like mythic contingency to have 6 spells on you at the same time for 30 days each. I'd use that to set up a gtr teleport and series of gates to call in reinforcements just before any effect that would kill me if I were him just for starters. Then there's mythic wish's alter fate. You know that save you need? It's a 1 cuz mythic.

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You know what'd be a perfect outcome of 'defeating' Cthulu? It turns out it was its astral projection the whole time. By time you realize this that whole kingdom/town/whatever you thought you were saving is being destroyed.

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Cranky Dog wrote:

BTW, what does Cthulhu do during all this time before the Almighty-Wizard-Who-Always-Has-Everything-Perfectly-Prepared arrives? Fiddle his thumbs tentacles or prepare something nasty?

Ultimately, do we have a lazy GM or not?

Of course we do. How else would the perfectly prepared wizard win if he weren't calling the shots? At least our dolt of a GM can rest easy that he didn't have to try.

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Cerberus Seven wrote:
Only within 120 feet. See Invisibility is the one with infinite range.

They still go nuts.

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Cthulu has true seeing constant. Invis is useless. Also, being invisible doesn't stop them from gaining an insanity.

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What happens when the nalfeshnee goes insane?

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Anzyr wrote:
You ready an action to cast it once the time stop ends. Then you use your move to get out of dodge. Also, Explosive Runes are permanent. What GM wouldn't let you stockpile them?

Why ready? That consumes your standard. Just do it once it ends. What are you going to do with a 30/60/120(depending on build)ft move action that has meaning against a 300ft aura and 200ft fly speed? He can just double move for 400ft and you're right in his aura.

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Anzyr wrote:
Eh... once he's killed once, my casters would arrange to make him resurrecting again a waste of time.

If you keep killing the Pope of the Old Gods as someone said before, I'd expect them to take notice and do something about it even if it's just whisking away his remains so he can properly plan for you next time.

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One of the main points of 5e is to be friendly to being molded as needed by GMs. It is a perfectly fine solution and can be done many times with the tools provided so it gets what you want a good majority of the time without feeling contrived. Magic is described as rare, magic items are explicitly not available for sale. To say 'no casters' for a campaign is perfectly legit and viable.

I have yet to see you point out something that doesn't work. It's like you're waiving your arms screaming foul not at anything in particular but just to say something's wrong. But I'm acting bizarre? Whatever. The only thing you've explicitly stated is that you don't like the system. Nothing will change that. That's all on you. But, if you want to actually talk about the system and its particulars then that's something we can have a discussion over. I have zero interest in 'converting' you or changing your view on it.

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