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Spirited Charge only works when charging while mounted. The way pummeling charge works you'd want as many attacks as possible at as high a BAB as possible, so a monk archetype that doesn't lose flurry with Horn of the Criosphinx is likely mathematically a better option than MoMS (which still takes two swift actions to get going at the dip level.)

Bonus should be around 10+Dex right now. If he has a 20 in Dex, then yes, he could have a +15

Diviner bonus +2
Improved Init +4
Familiar +4
Trait +2
Dex Variable.

Edit: This for a Diviner Wizard, as previously mentioned. The Divination school specialization gives 1/2 Wizard level as an Initiative bonus. As to how bad it could get, the answer is very bad (A level 20 Diviner gets +10 to Init just from class abilities as well as treating all initiative rolls as a natural 20 and always acting in the surprise round even if not aware).

Name: Adawulf Vhiski
Race: Human
Classes/levels: Sacred Slayer of Shizuru 7
Adventure: The Hungry Storm
Location: Path of Agan-hei
Catalyst: A startled Kimandatsu
The Gory Details: Kimandatsu, who had escaped from Ravenscraeg in the previous volume, attacked the caravan. The Sacred Slayer, who was wielding Suishen, Air Walked to her, crit and half-healthed her. He was suddenly no longer a nuisance but a threat, so she switched to her tetsubo, and summarily crit him back, taking him from 60% health to -20. x4 hurts. What followed was an epic scramble as my foo lion managed to hold a grapple on her long enough for a hound archon to take up Suishen and attack, critting her yet again and taking her down before she could fly away.

One of the most memorable encounters I've ever experienced.

So the group I'm with just finished the tower with Katiyana. We are a NG Master Summoner of Desna with Summon Good Monster, Sacred Slayer Inquisitor of Shizuru, and a Mysterious Stranger 1/Ninja X. We were level 8 during this encounter. My summoner had 3 hound archons summoned from previous encounters in the tower (2 just from the remorhaz on the floor below).

Round 1
Summoner: Dimension Door all three party members to ledge with Katiyana.
Ninja: 3 Focused Aim sneak attack shots, 91 damage
Sacred Slayer: Bane outsider(native), free action study target on hit w/sneak attack, 45 damage. Katiyana dead before acting.

We didn't even play out the combat with the 3 hound archons vs the hoar frost spirits as it would have been a joke at this point.

There's not a real point to this story, I just thought it was pretty fun to one round a CR 11 encounter when down 1 PC and wanted to share.

Rynjin wrote:

The entire AP is basically one big, long revenge plot Asmodeus cooked up to get back at Mitra. If your character has no interest in the outcome of that squabble, he has no reason to participate.

That is true, but I simply fixed it by giving my PCs a reason to hate the Mitrans outside of the revenge plot. That way the revenge plot becomes Thorn's (and Asmodeus's revenge by proxy) and the PC's revenge. Thorn's rules are fine for now, while they have no power to stop him. In time though, they plan to find loopholes in their contract and take him out, as well as the Mitrans. Which is just fine with me.

francesco serafini wrote:

As I suspected. I'm a newbie and I still have doubt on some rules.

I thought that "Con Based" could mean that the reflex save get bonus from constitution. It sound silly, on second thought.
Thank you!

I'm not a newbie and I still have doubt on some rules. It's a complicated game. Never be afraid to ask.

The Whirlwind Blast DC says it is Con based, so it would increase by 2, to a total of DC 19 for a Bralani with Augment Summoning.

Don't let anyone play a Souleater with Crafting Feats unless you're ok with your players becoming Monty Haul style over wealth due to the huge amount of downtime available in book 2.

Rynjin wrote:

Oh, and make sure everybody is fanatically devoted to Asmodeus. Like, 100% completely ready to follow orders no matter what the orders might be.

Because the plot of this AP makes ZERO SENSE if they aren't. Past Book 2, or maybe even earlier, you basically have no incentive whatsoever to keep following orders unless you're right on with the cause or are in some other way completely incapable of being able to go your own way.

Actually, I didn't find that to be a problem at all. None of the players were Asmodeans when I ran it, but the contracts they had to sign early in book 1 were enough to keep them in line until they were free of them. By that point, they wanted to rule the island anyway, so lack of Asmodean help just made it a little more challenging for them, but it wasn't immersion breaking.

If I were going to do anything, I'd give the guy grappled a small circumstance modifier to his CMD, per an invisible creature in a grapple. But as for a flat 50% miss to maintain, that's silly. You've already got a hold on the guy, you FEEL him. It doesn't matter that his image looks a couple inches in another direction.

Magus Pierce wrote:

Very interesting points are cropping up now... And I just might make a Blugeoning Disc brawler for kicks. And since they're part of the Close fighter weapon group, couldn't they be used in a brawler's fury action?

Nope, got it confused with Flurry of Blows. Flurry allows monk weapons to be used, Fury is just Unarmed Strikes.

That kills my ridiculous fighting style plan, lol.

Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.

Smashing board away.

Driver 325 yards wrote:
Resilent Brute: Once per day, when a creature confirms a critical hit against you, you may treat half the damage as nonlethal damage. You cannot use this ability if you are immune to nonlethal damage. When your base attack bonus reaches +10, you may use this ability an additional time per day.

So essentially you are struck with a blow that does lethal and nonlethal damage. So if you are hit with 30 point of damage, 15 would be lethal and 15 would be nonlethal. You would apply DR/5- to the lethal. You would apply DR/10- to the nonlethal. You would be left with 10 points of lethal damage and 5 point of nonlethal damage taken.

Sorry Brotato, but in this particular instance I just don't see why there would be any table variation at all. Unless I am missing something that is not plain on the surface, the rules are pretty clear here.

I agree that there *shouldn't* be table variance, but simply accede that there *may* be. I have seen enough arguments trying to apply defensive abilities in the worst order of operations possible (DR before Incorporeality, Vulnerability before Resistance) that I'm simply acknowledging that out there there is almost assuredly someone that does not agree with you and me.

In the order of operations, logical flow to me is Saving Throw, Damage mitigation not-DR/Resistance (incorporeality, for example), Resistance/DR, Vulnerability.

So in this case I would rule that Resilient Brute triggers first, splitting the damage, which is then reduced as applicable by each DR. It's an ability that you get to use at most 2x a day, it's not game breaking, not even really as powerful as a Destined Bloodrager's anti-crit ability.

RAW, there is no absolutely spelled out order of application of variables that affect damage, so you're going to have to deal with a bit of table variance. I feel my order of operations makes the most sense, however.

Only way I've found to blend Monk and Swashbuckler into a decent Dex to damage build that doesn't use Agile is to go Temple Sword.

You're missing the point. A PRE-requisite is something that a creature is required to have PRIOR to being able to SELECT said Feat (which you actually quoted but didn't seem to notice). The very prefix PRE disallows you from taking Final Embrace without first having constrict. It's the same reason you couldn't take a feat with a prerequisite of Diplomacy +10 that gave you a +2 to Diplomacy if your Diplomacy was only +8.

ryric wrote:

I'm actually unimpressed with the inquisitor's discern lies ability - that spell allows a saving throw, and since it's a SLA the save DC will be Cha based and therefore likely not very good. Add to that the fact that your target know someone tried to do something to them when they make the DC13-15 Will save and its utility goes way down.

It has some uses but in general it's more limited than people seem to think.

I agree. Especially when you consider that most Inquisitors are going to have a Sense Motive check so insane that it replaces most spells anyway.

L'cutus wrote:

One thing I learned in PFS play was that Acid Splash essentially replaces rogues for quietly entering buildings. It takes a lot of time, but it eventually works. My party found a place to hide in an alleyway and bored in through a wall.

So I imagine fire works the same, except it causes light, heat and generally much more ado. I don't know about rules for catching fire, but eventually damage will work. I'd just expect the whole dungeon to be waiting on the other side.

How, exactly, is a maximum of 4 damage, halved, getting through even wood's 5 hardness, to say nothing of stone's 8?

Not only that, but Sanctified Slayer basically gets rid of their weakest ability (which is still pretty strong) for Focused Target and Sneak Attack, offsetting their Average BAB and making them even better front-liners.

Flawed wrote:

One of the Eldritch heritage feat line can get you a +6 inherent bonus to con...

Pit-Touched not a bloodline. It is what the Infernal bloodline becomes when a sorcerer takes the Wildblooded Archetype. It is not a separate bloodline, and so not available for EH.

Anzyr wrote:
Not really, Rise of the Runelords gives you decent chunks of downtime. And that really takes a day a most. And even if you do end up having to do something you have plenty of 1-4th level spells to fall back on.

As long as you can get back to Varisia in the same day, but I agree about Runelords having large chunks of downtime. I wasn't referring to that AP in particular for the repercussions part (though there are a few timetables in that game that my players have borked by trying to abuse 15 minute adventure days.)

blahpers wrote:
Brotato wrote:

Plane Shift to where, exactly? City of Brass on the Fire Plane I suppose would work, no sure of any other Metropoli elsewhere. Better be prepared though, Plane Shift isn't exact.

Teleport to where, exactly? Sure you can keep trying until you hit a place you've "seen once," but this invites potential mishaps, and wastes time, which as I mentioned can become a factor in Runelords.

I'll admit ignorance and say I'm not sure what Contact Other Plane is meant to accomplish in this scenario.

** spoiler omitted **

The answer to your third (implied) question is "to answer your first two questions".

Ah I see. Yes I suppose if you're willing to pester deities with where you can find the BSF's next sword, that would help. It's a bit dangerous (Ability checks stay relevant much longer than other checks). It's also a lot of your high level spells just to buy things. Which means you're likely not adventuring that day. Which can (not always, but can) have its own repercussions.

Plane Shift to where, exactly? City of Brass on the Fire Plane I suppose would work, no sure of any other Metropoli elsewhere. Better be prepared though, Plane Shift isn't exact.

Teleport to where, exactly? Sure you can keep trying until you hit a place you've "seen once," but this invites potential mishaps, and wastes time, which as I mentioned can become a factor in Runelords.

I'll admit ignorance and say I'm not sure what Contact Other Plane is meant to accomplish in this scenario.

On a tangent, Anniversary Edition Karzoug is dangerous enough that I think even two full casters in a party of four would have a hard time keeping him under control. That first round if he wins Init is just brutal.

Matthew Downie wrote:
Brotato wrote:
A +5 magic sword is also 50,000. If you're going by the rules, there *might* be one available (from the specific major item random roll) but if not, a player isn't going to be able to just buy one, even in a Metropolis (unless that metropolis has some traits that give it a decent boost to its base gp value). Many of these homebrew attempts I see have an incredible onus on them. I feel if many just really read the settlement rules and enforced them, they wouldn't need convoluted systems of magical item distribution.

The standard rules are fairly convoluted - at the level where you have 50,000gp to spend you probably also have the magic to travel the world, looking in all the world's great metropolises to see what's available.

You can't solve everyone's problems by going by the rules, because everyone has different goals. Some people want to make all magic items, not just the 20,000gp+ ones, feel special and rare and not mass produced. My goals are (a) to allow the player to get the things that are specific to their character concept, (b) to avoid overpowered PCs, and (c) for all shopping to take place between sessions so I don't have to waste table time on it.

Sure, they do. But how many settlements are metropolis level in Golarion? Maybe 12-20? That's 12-20 shots at your item, on a table that is quite frankly so vast that your chances of any specific item you want being available are so slim that it's like winning the lottery.

Take Rise of the Runelords for example. The biggest settlement you come across in that entire campaign is Magnimar. Magnimar's base GP limit is 12,800 gp. You literally cannot find even a +4 stat item in Magnimar if it's not rolled as a specific item for that month. And you can get to this point as early as 7th level. This is for an AP that spans 18 levels by the end. So for more than half of the PCs adventuring lives, they have to juggle trying to have things commissioned (Runelords has some decent time tables in place) or just roll with what they find in monster loot.

If you want magical items to feel special, there is already a mechanism for that. It's far less immersion breaking to me to just say that a medieval civilization with low magic would have medieval settlement sizes (ie, large cities being the absolute maximum size) and using that than creating specific and arbitrary restrictions.

Wheldrake wrote:

Yes, since it takes a crafter of 15+ level to craft a +5 sword (and so on) those really cool magic weapons can't be cranked out by just anybody. And your 15+ level wizards probably have a lot of better things to do than cater to the greedy desires of the latest crop of adventurers, not to mention better ways to rake in loads of swag.

Most of those magic items that require really high-level casters to make are probably centuries old, if not more.

This said, I've really enjoyed reading this thread, and it reinforces the idea that you can play D&D/Pathfinder in many different ways, with a magic-rich or magic-poor setting, however you prefer. There is no one right way.

I feel like I'm a broken record here but I really feel like all these ideas about the rules allowing for Magic Mart Syndrome are a consequence of people never reading or enforcing settlement limitations. A +5 magic sword is also 50,000. If you're going by the rules, there *might* be one available (from the specific major item random roll) but if not, a player isn't going to be able to just buy one, even in a Metropolis (unless that metropolis has some traits that give it a decent boost to its base gp value). Many of these homebrew attempts I see have an incredible onus on them. I feel if many just really read the settlement rules and enforced them, they wouldn't need convoluted systems of magical item distribution.

If allowed, it would place them on their spell list at the appropriate level, as to do otherwise would make the perk completely useless.

It allows them to take those spells as spells known (pending GM approval since it's a non-core source), but does not grant them for free.

He's a Spawn of Rovagug. He's the living amalgamation of a volcano. Anything non-artifact is in danger of becoming slag.

Simon Legrande wrote:

Here's something that I think goes contrary to that idea. We always see claims that higher level spell casters are supposed to be super rare. I mean like 1:1,000,000,000 rare. If that's the case, how is the world littered with shops that sell equipment that only a high level caster could craft? (I'm not looking for an answer, it's just a counterpoint to the magic items everywhere idea).

Except the world isn't, if you're using the settlement rules. Even a metropolis is only going to have a handful (around 1d4ish) of items worth more than around 36,000 gold a month. Also, CL is irrelevant for crafting 99% of the time. It's one of the most ignored requirements (which only raises the DC by 5).

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I just use the actual rules. Not even Metropoli have a 36000gp base limit. That means even something as minor as a +6 stat item either has to be specifically commissioned (meaning getting a crafter to devote 36 days to one item), rolled as part of the random major items of the month, or just found.

Magic Mart Syndrome is largely a product of not using the settlement rules correctly.

A 17th level Master Summoner with the Ring of Agathion summoning putting out 1d3+1 leonals is an average of 416 healing per leonal for one use of your ~16/day SLA. On top of pounce, 3(1d3+1) Walls of Force, unlimited fireballs(1d3+1)/hold monsters, and protective auras on all of them to shield your teammates. And if you have SGM, they all have Diehard. It's a long way off, but definitely something that can come in handy at the end of an AP.

Imbicatus wrote:
Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
Otherwise you have a lot of useless, overlapping abilities.

I think that's as it should be. Bloodrager single class is superior to going dragon disciple. Increasing Rage, better Spellcasting, Bloodline powers, and FCBs should be a tradeoff for the Stat boosts DD gives.

Draconic Bloodrager is for all intents a single class Dragon Disciple.

I did a quick and dirty comparison back during the revised playtest and came to the same conclusion. Single class Draconic Bloodrager is just flat better than PrCing into DD. Taking EH for Abyssal or Orc and you're losing very little stats but getting a huge bloodline payout for not splitting.

What happens?

Edit: Turns out the point is moot vs Foo creatures, as their type changes. Carry on!

Current character: NG Master Summoner for Jade Regent

Previous 3:
NE Half-orc Infiltrator/Souldrinker for Way of the Wicked
LN Samsaran Diviner for friend's conversion of Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
NG Aasimar Evangelist of Sarenrae for a popcorn adventure game

Swashbucklers get Uncanny Dodge, so this question is kind of moot past level 1.

EDIT: I'm an idiot who's been looking at some outdated crap. My mistake.

Javaed wrote:

Getting Kirin Strike by level 9 is a great way to boost your damage significantly, and is also quite thematic. Note that his requires Improved Unarmed Strike by level 5 and then Kirin Style at level 7. Taking round 1 of combat to drink a buff, activate your Studied Combat and then make your Kirin Style roll will suddenly turn you into a powerhouse.

Kirin Strike is a trap. It takes a swift action to enter Kirin Style, a swift action to study the creature, and a swift action to deal the damage. Which means you don't deal that extra damage before round 3. Not worth it at all.

Elmar Thonsson wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

I thought all rangers took quick draw for switch hitting. Even if you are primary ranged, it's a great feat for the option to switch to melee.

People keep telling me this, but the numbers on the switch hitter just don't make sense. Unless I need to constantly move for some reason, a bow always gives enough extra attacks to deal more damage, and spending feats on 2WF would seriously reduce my damage.

Meanwhile, Point Blank Master, at level 6, makes bows function just as well in melee range, and suddenly any melee feats taken earlier become a waste.

(I guess I could mention that the goal of my build was to get Improved Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes as soon as possible, in order to get full-BAB attacks on around 10 enemies per round)

A switch hitter doesn't use two weapon fighting. It uses two handed fighting, which requires Power Attack, and if you want to have a full round worth of melee attacks, Quick Draw, that's it. You don't move as a switch hitter. You stand in one spot, pelting the enemy with arrows until they finally reach melee, and then anyone still standing gets a 2 hander to the face. It is literally the basest of character concepts, and ranger pulls it off easily.

Tiefling paladin with Fey Foundling and FCB is the single best hp battery in Pathfinder currently, and does it without sacrificing any combat potential.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

It's definitely still in there.

It's at page 219 of the Core.

The line was removed from the PRD and from new editions of the Core book. That section now reads

PRD wrote:
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards' spellbooks to his own (see Magic).

SlimGauge wrote:
For what purpose ? Determining the break DC ? Determining the Hit Points of the Door ?

For the purposes of the Break spell.

Very simply: Is a door that is designed for Medium sized creatures (that is, a Large sized creature would have to squeeze to get through) a Medium sized object?

Kudaku wrote:
"You can expend one use of fervor to cast any one warpriest spell you have prepared as a swift action"

This is the exact sentence rewrite I meant to suggest in my original post, but I forgot by the time I was composing it.

So, I figured I'd bring this up now so perhaps we can get some clarification, but everyone keeps talking about using fervor to swift action cast spells. Well, the wording on this particular part of Warpriest actually is written extremely poorly and potentially in a way that RAW does not actually allow that.


As a swift action, you can expend one use of fervor to

cast any one warpriest spell you have prepared. You can
target only yourself with this spell, even if it could normally
affect other or multiple targets. Spells cast in this way
ignore somatic components and do not provoke attacks of
opportunity. You do not need to have a free hand to cast a
spell in this way.

As written, it sounds like you're allowed to use the use of fervor as a swift action to cast the spell. As in, you have to spend the swift, use the fervor, then cast the spell using the standard spell cast time with the bonuses that it doesn't provoke, uses no somatics, and doesn't require a free hand. Based on Jason's posts it's obvious what the intent is supposed to be, but the way it is written can very easily be misinterpreted.

Dekalinder wrote:
The main thing with the Arbiter is his perfect memory. That ability has no theorycraft weight but is 10 times more awesome in actual play than scroll use.

Unless I'm missing something, it's the Cassisian (an angel) that has perfect memory, not the Arbiter. And you can have the Cassisian rest on your head, which is hilarious to me.

Imbicatus wrote:
Using a 2nd level spell to gain a touch attack with 10' reach? It's clearly overpowered.

I was fairly certain your post was sarcasm, but I wasn't sure until I hovered over the link. I approve, carry on.

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Skills and Powers also allowed you to make characters so overpowered there's really no comparison in Pathfinder. I find it humorous every time I hear a cry of "______ in Pathfinder is so OP, we need to get back to 2nd Ed!"

Kwauss wrote:
As a fellow adventurer, I'm not going to be very welcoming of a substandard companion into the group where they don't start being effective until 3rd level, or until they have a specific magic item or set of items...but perhaps people don't play levels 1 and 2 anymore

Or perhaps (other) people understand that not every class comes online right from first level (wizard/sorc anyone?) and that this is a cooperative game and that not everyone starts out as complete strangers to each other even at level 1 and FFS 10 Str is f$@~ing average. I have an Evangelist Cleric that started at a 10 Str at level 1 and is now level 9 and got by just fine. (I use an excel sheet that auto calculates encumberance as well.)

A player in my game took Blind Fight simply because with it he could close his eyes and have a better chance of hitting a mirror-imaged caster than he could otherwise. MI is that good.

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

I highly recommend a Summoning Cleric.

Summons can offer more bodies on the field for the DM to direct attacks at. It also offers critters to add to damage. As well as the Critters SLAs and Magic they bring with them.

Sacred summons will allow you to Standard action Summon.

Your[sic] also going to need to fix the other guys problems when they come along. Buying scrolls is expensive to fix problems and learning the spells take up your spell list. This is also why I do not recommend an Oracle.

I would almost always advise a Master Summoner with either Eldritch Heritage Abyssal or Summon Good Monster over a Sacred Summons cleric, but for the bolded reason I second this idea.

I'd recommend Evangelist with Heroism subdomain for such a summoning build.

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Every time I hear about a RotRL adventure party without a wizard, I cry a little inside. Free spellbooks figuratively fall out of the sky. It's a wizard's wet dream.

To stay on point, perhaps life oracle with fcb in channel energy? With life-link, you could actually provide a lot of sustain.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Your attempt to make it sound unreasonable is quaint. PFS has a track record of banning things that make the game environment disruptive. Blood Money fits that bill. GMs have the option of enforcing rarity in their games. Don't like it, don't play at their table.

A player in my Rise of the Runelords game is loosely based on Batman, calls himself The Hawk, and is obsessed with "Justice." Recently, they came across some art object value plates, and soon after were forced into a combat. The Hawk (who has Devoted Guardian and a high init) went first, and opened with the line "Justice will be served! But not on these plates, this is the fine china."

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