BretI's page

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber. FullStarFullStarFullStar Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park 3,329 posts (10,472 including aliases). 7 reviews. 4 lists. No wishlists. 27 Organized Play characters. 16 aliases.


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@GM Lorenzo

Sorry, I was mistaken. I confused greypark for greysector.



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Dasrak wrote:

BretI wrote:

Actually, you could in 1st edition AD&D. I can't remember if second edition allowed it, but I think it was AD&D 3.0 that stopped allowing it.
It was stopped because it was overpowered. You would essentially be one level behind single-class characters, but would have all the class features of two classes. It'd be like being a gestalt Fighter 7//Wizard 7 while the rest of the party is 8th level.

It wasn’t quite gestalt. You got half hit points from each class and the progress tended to be a little more than one level behind. Going triple class was a bad deal, you were far behind everyone else after they got to 2nd level.

I do agree it wasn’t balanced, but neither was a lot of the other things in A D & D.

We will hopefully see if the playtest version of multiclassing is balanced or not. I don’t think that allowing it to start at level one would create new balance problems though.

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Luceon wrote:
You could never multi class at level 1 before.

Actually, you could in 1st edition AD&D. I can't remember if second edition allowed it, but I think it was AD&D 3.0 that stopped allowing it.

Luceon wrote:

Why all the sudden are you saying it should start now? You all say you want it at level 1, but never explain a logical reason why someone should start with two classes.

Personally I don't care when it starts, I do think you are all barking up the wrong tree. There will be supplement material with classes. Those books will have other classes that essentially do what you are asking for, hybrid classes, like Magus, Inquisitor, Arcane Trickster, ad infinitum. It just looks like you guys are seeking more power creep.

The reason they should start with two classes is that they split their study between the two fields. Instead of having this represented by cramming on the second class in order to learn it during 2nd level, you allow them to start closer to what the person was probably imagining -- someone who learned skills from both disciplines.

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I agree that allowing them to start at level 1 makes sense for a number of character concepts, especially for the multi-class options.

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andreww wrote:
Chris Lambertz wrote:
Heya! This change to remove the sessions tab from /people pages was intentional and came from a view different vectors. Sessions are still viewable from your My Organized Play page.
Why on earth would you do this?

At a guess, the stuff in My Organized Play has minimal interactions and dependencies on the forum software. If that is the case, it may be easier for the web developers to change that section.

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Xenocrat wrote:
The Dandy Lion wrote:
Someone asked about if it was intended for Wizards to just be able to multiclass fighter and get full armor/weapon proficiency. Answer: Yes! There is no arcane spell failure, Paizo reckons the opportunity cost of investing in strength and skipping a bunch of metamagic will make up for the difference.
I wonder if he forgot that you can qualify with Dex and 18 Int, 16 Dex is a very sensible 1st level stat selection for a Wizard. Light armor for a cheap bonus plus rune options, a rapier or other decent weapon in your hand, that's better than the vast majority of class feat options at 2nd level.

Is that really better than taking (as an example) your Ancestry’s Weapon Familiarity at 1st level, Armor Proficiency (light) at 2nd and then being able to take a different multiclass or a prestige class after that? If we had them, I would be looking at Bard or Druid as a multiclass.

The Fighter dedication gives a lot in comparison to many of them, but it does lock you in. In order to take advantage of the better armor, you will need to allocate attribute boosts to Strength. I’ve done a very simple comparison and there are most certainly trade offs.

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My problem with animal totem is that the way I read their anathema they can’t use bows.

How rare they supposed to deal with flying opponents?

In my mind, that alone made it a totem I would never take.

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So the text on pg. 8 should be corrected.

Maybe change it to something like:

Rolling 20 is better! Rolling a 20 on the die means you automatically succeed and may critically succeed. A critical success often has a greater effect than normal and usually requires you to exceed the Difficulty Class by 10 or more. More about critical successes is on page 292.

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Bardarok wrote:

I don't think it compares that closely. It's trading -5 movement speed, -1 TAC, -4 Armor check penalty for +1 AC. Admittedly AC is probably more likely to come up than TAC but it's a pretty steep cost and really only worth it if you plan on getting attacked a lot.

I don't think most 1st level wizards will expend half their spells on AC.

Let's take it at 5th level instead.

16 Dex Wizard, 1st level Mage Armor
AC 19 = 10 + 1 item +3 Dex +0 Trained +5 level
TAC 19 = same as above

16 Dex Wizard, 2nd level Mage Armor (reasonable, it is only 1/3 their 2nd level spells)
AC 20 = 10 + 2 item +3 Dex +0 Trained +5 Level
TAC 20 = same as above.
Gets +1 to all saves
They could also at this point afford Bracers of Armor (2nd) at that is a 4th level item.

16 Dex Wizard, took Fighter Multiclass, +1 expert Scale Mail
+1 Magic Medium Armor is only a 3rd level item, so not unreasonable at this level.
AC 22 = 10 + 4 item +3 Dex +0 Trained +5 Level
TAC 20 = 10 +2 item +3 Dex +0 Trained +5 Level
Gets +1 to all saves. Bulk 2, -5 foot movement, -0 ACP

A reasonable trade-off.

16 Dex Wizard, took Fighter Multiclass, +1 expert Breastplate
AC 23 = 10 + 5 item +3 Dex +0 Trained +5 level
AC 21 = 10 + 3 item +3 Dex +0 Trained +5 level
Gets +1 to all saves, Bulk 2, -5 movement, -2 ACP (reduced once for Expert armor, again for Potency)

The ACP would make it difficult to balance, climb, swim or sneak.

16 Dex Wizard, non-proficient, +1 expert Breastplate
AC 21 = 10 +5 +3 Dex -2 Untrained +5 level
AC 19 = 10 +3 +3 Dex -2 Untrained +5 level

At that point I think they would be better off with Bracers of Armor. Their AC would be one higher, but TAC one lower. At that point, the bulk and ACP will most likely not be worth it.

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FaerieLore wrote:

Cantrips don't use spell slots; they heighten to higher spell levels for no additional cost. If you cast Mage Armor as an 11th level wizard, the cantrip heightens to a 6th level spell, and you still have both your regular slots for 6th level spells.

Mage Armor is a 1st level spell, not a Cantrip.

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Pookiebear wrote:

I've been working hard on my magus character. Its sooo leet.

Wizard or Sorc as base class. Sorc is cool because you can go with the Occult spell list while the Wizard is arcane exclusive.

at level 2, take the fighter multiclass feat. This gives you proficiency with martial/simple weapons and all armor, but not shields. This is great for wizards since there aren't any negatives for casting in armor. (none I've found and I've looked!!) :)

You'll generally need a free hand, so you Want to weild a bastard sword (martial weapon), cause you can take an action to 2hand it, and take the damage from a D8 to a D12.

At 4th, I'd personally take the Magical Striker feat, this is a really big part of the plan and it's why sorceror and wizard are the best choices for magus.

so, once you have all these pieces, here's the sort of plan...

1 action, true strike (lvl 1, verbal action only)
0 action(free), Magical Striker activates, granting an extra dice of dmg.
1 action, strike. (wizards craft well, so they might even have their own magic +1 bastard sword!!!)

that's 2xD20's rolled on an attack which deals 2d12 or 3d12 + str. and you have an action to play with!! :)

I am looking at something very similar for a character of mine.

I went Elf for the Weapon Familiarity.
Str 12 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 10
Hand of the Apprentice and Reach Spell on a universal wizard.

At 2nd level, pick up the Fighter Multiclass for the Armor proficiency.

At 4th level pick up Magical Striker.

At 5th level pick up Weapon Elegance (Elf). Bump all physical attributes and Int.

Early levels you use Magical Weapon for the bonus Damage dice, it lasts a minute. If you have someone dedicated to melee, use it on their weapon since it likely has a larger damage die. I also plan to take Grim Tendrils since it is AoE line.

Acid Splash as a cantrip for swarms. It only does 1 splash damage, but swarms tend to have a weakness to splash damage.

In addition to the True Strike you mentioned, there are tricks like Hand of the Apprentice so you can make a Strike without having to be next to the opponent. The Elf weapons help at first level, and at 5th you are getting the critical specials.

Since Wizards never get better than Trained in Unarmored, wearing armor will end up being better except for the Bulk requirements.

I’m still trying to determine exactly what other things can be done here, but with the new weapon proficiency rules it looks possible for a Wizard to hit things. They still will be far behind a real martial character (only having Trained in their weapon normally), but it will not be as wide a gap as in PF1.

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The sessions viewable from the My Organized Play page don’t give you a way to view it by character.

You can get a list of all the sessions you have played, or all that you have GMed. That list can get quite long.

When going through Organized Play paperwork, it was extremely convenient to be able to view just the records for a particular character. It would be slightly better if you could get a combined view (played and GMed) when doing this, but what used to be there was a great help.

I would guess there were privacy concerns that caused you to remove it. If you only included the scenario/module, an indication of played or GMed, and the prestige/reputation would it be possible to put that tab back?

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dragonhunterq wrote:
Sounds painfully dull if I'm honest and I actually prefer PF2 to that level of detail.

It allows for some minor communication between people with similar languages. Allow a check for someone who knows English to understand some of what someone speaking German is saying.

What is or isn’t fun details will depend on the audience. I imagine some people would like a better way than mime to communicate with a nearby culture where the languages share common elements.

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Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Few RPGs I've come across model degrees of language proficiency, however. The idea of a single skill point granting complete mastery of a language always rubbed me the wrong way, but attempts at house ruling an entire new subsystem and tacking it on to languages met with at best mixed success and was abandoned.

Hero System (the rules underlying Champions) used a language chart that showed languages with common roots. It made other languages from the same family easier to learn than completely different ones.

Something like that might be made to work in PF2 if we were given enough resources to purchase multiple languages. I think the UTEML proficiency system could be used as a basis but it would have to use a different resource for languages separate from the current skills.

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The fighter archetype only allows you to become expert at a weapon type — at level 12!

I can’t find anything outside of a class that allows you to improve armor proficiency.

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Jason S wrote:
There is no UMD.

Actually, there is.

Trick Magic Item is a feat that allows you to use your skill in one of the magical traditions (Arcana, Nature, Religion, or Occult) that you are trained in to activate magic items of that tradition.

It doesn’t work exactly the same way, but it basically does what UMD used to do.

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Currently the sneak attack says:

If you Strike a flat-footed creature with an agile or finesse melee weapon, an agile or finesse unarmed attack, or a ranged attack, you deal 1d6 extra precision damage. For a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse.

Then we have the Bludgeoner Rogue Feat.


You make brutal bludgeoning attacks that daze your foes. You can deal sneak attack damage with one-handed weapons of the club and mace groups even if they don't have the agile or finesse trait. When you Strike with that weapon and critically succeed at the attack roll, you gain the following enhancement.

Enhancement The target is slowed 1 until the end of your next turn.

Since even in the core playtest we are adding weapons to what the rogue can use Sneak Attack with, I would recommend you create a classification for these weapons and change the descriptions. That will make it easier to add other feats that expand the weapons and allow you to cleanly specify when something is limited to weapons that a rogue can use to Sneak Attack with.


I assume that the weapons from Bludgeoner are not supposed to get Dex to Damage. The way things are currently worded they wouldn’t get it.


If a Rogue takes Bludgeoner, should their proficiency in those weapons increase to Expert at 13th level when they get Weapon Tricks? Currently the way it is worded they wouldn’t get that unless the weapon was also a simple weapon.

I would suggest you expand this to include any weapons they can Sneak Attack with. That way it would include the weapons from Bludgeoner and any future weapons you may add.

If you want credit for the playtest, you will want to keep the 1501 character.

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epicmusic42 wrote:
While I can appreciate this, I'm also a little partial to Magic being it's own language that anyone can learn. If for no other reason, it's rather amusing to have my barely literate barbarian pick up a magic scroll and inform the wizard that it says it's a fireball spell (though to be fair that's a bit of a pain to do in PF1 as is). It'll be interesting to see how they're wanting magic writings to function in -game.

I have also considered Magical Notation it’s own language, sort of like music and math are.

Music and math both use symbols that aren’t used for spoken languages. Those symbols have become standardized so that it is easier to figure out what they are. They don’t change based on the writer’s native language, an integral notation is the same regardless of if the manual is written in English or German. Same for the sheet music.

Those styles of notation are what I imagined magical writings was like. Special symbols with their own contextual meanings and specialized symbols for each of the different schools of magic.

With magical writings now being in a certain language, we need to know what languages a Wizard should expect to need. Will most of the magic be written in a mixture of Common, Elven and Draconic? If someone is focused on Necromancy, are they going to feel the need to learn Necril as a language? What language should someone specializing in Transmutation magic learn in order to have the best chance of reading esoteric magical writings? Does it change based on magical tradition?

In general, characters will know less languages than they did in PF1. Rather than getting an Int bonus to languages known, you get a single extra language if your Int is 14 or higher. Other than that, it seems the only way to get more languages is via Multilingual feat.

Unfortunately it feels more like indigestion right now.

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I think that the original poster has brought up a number of good points here.

The book is currently organized to be able to reference things if you already have an idea of what you are looking for. It isn’t nearly as good for someone coming in fresh and trying to understand the system.

It is a very dry, mechanical read. It feels more like a specification than something that ignites the imagination. There are some things that can be done which I think would help quite a bit.

A section for those familiar with RPGs

This should be a quick start for people who have played other RPGs and want to jump into this one. It should give a high level overview of character creation and what ‘knobs to turn’ when making your character.

This section would not assume that the reader is familiar with Pathfinder, but would assume they know general RPG concepts and don’t need dice explained to them. It should point out where they can read a description of the jargon specific to this game.

This section can send people off to different areas of the rules, but it still needs to be careful of how much page flipping it causes.

A better section talking about building the character

This should start out with things that help you decide the A, B, Cs.

It should include the strengths of each of the classes, and the basics of what you can achieve with them. Table 1-1 and 1-2 on pg. 13 is likely supposed to provide this, but I didn’t find it very useful.

Table 1-2 at the very least needs statements like ‘Fighters are the very best at weapons’, ‘Paladins are the very best at armor and have defensive combat abilities to support that’, ‘Monks are the masters at unarmed combat. Some wield mystical powers while others focus on physical combat’ and other such phrases.

The designers intended each class to be the best in one particular area. That should be clearly spelled out in Table 1-2. They need to give people tropes they can latch on to while avoiding poor stereotypes.

Sample character outlines

One of the better things that Starfinder did was the two page spreads for each character class showing the breadth of characters that could be created. It included feat and skill suggestions that helped direct people to what they were looking for.

The feats section would work a lot better if there were these sort of character briefs in each character class. Make it so people can put together a character by copying the elements in one of the outlines.

A section before the classes explaining common elements

It might even be titled something like common elements.

This is where you tell people to look at the class table for when they get general feats, ancestry feats, and some of the other repetitive text that currently exists. It would be a good place to cover proficiency increases and where to look on each class for when those happen.

It would also likely be good to include something here about what can be done to modify some of those elements if the class doesn’t have exactly what they are looking for. Things like feats that would change each type (weapons, armor, saves, skills) of proficiency, a forward reference to multiclassing, etc.

Make it clear what can be customized in the common elements if what is presented in the class isn’t exactly what you wanted.


Some of the above is already in the rules, just not in a very accessible manner.

Other things I am still looking for. As an example, when can the Rogue improve armor proficiency from Trained to Expert, Master or Legendary in light armor? There are skill increases noted on the tables, but I don’t see a consistent notation for weapon and armor proficiency increases.

The Paladin class has it hidden by calling it Armored Fortitude. It seems to be fixed for them, I’m not sure if their proficiency with the lighter armors ever does improve.

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There is also this on pg. 18:

Ability Boosts wrote:
When you gain multiple ability boosts at the same time, you must apply each one to a different score.


I was wondering about how it would work with a dwarf taking that Ancestry feat. Best I can determine the minimum Reasonance is 0, so assuming an 8 Charisma and this feat it would be 4th level before you got any Resonance. That could make taking a healing potion a bit tricky.

At that point, does your character basically require that someone play a healer to keep you alive?

I have them and have read through various sections, I’m now trying to read through the whole book.

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In case it isn’t clear:

Pg. 18, Ability boosts wrote:
When you gain multiple ability boosts at the same time, you must apply each one to a different score.

Honestly, I think it would be better if that restriction were not applied to the four free that you get at first level, but others feel it is a good thing. I like being able to create a character of any race in spite of the general racial flaw.

It is a difference in viewpoint, one that has caused quite a bit of discussion in the Starfinder forums since that uses a slightly different system that allows you to sink everything into overcoming a racial flaw.

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Honestly, I wish all classes had one “free” Signature Skill that you picked.

This allows some customization out of the gate without having to pay extra. True, it doesn’t matter to the character until 7th level. In my opinion, it would even be alright if you had to wait until 9th level to make that pick, slightly delaying your ability to Master that skill.

I like to make characters that have something unusual or quirky about them. In PF1, that would often mean taking a skill that isn’t typical for that class. I’ve an Ifrit Swashbuckler who is working to get Kn: Planes as a class skill as part of connecting to his heritage. It has helped me understand their motivations and interests.

In PF2 the classes already limit how many skills you can advance to the higher levels by limiting the number of Skill Increase you get. If a person wants to spend those on a skill that isn’t generally associated with their class, why not allow it? Their total number of Master and Legendary skills will not change, just what skills they can choose to get to those levels.

As I mentioned in another thread, I would also be in favor of Craft always being a Signature Skill.

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I would like more flexibility in choosing signature skills as well. It isn’t like you are going to be able to advance every skill to Legendary anyways. You have a limited number of skill imrpovements.

Every class should probably have craft as a signature skill, just so there isn’t an imbalance in what can be done in the way of downtime. If someone wants their barbarian to be a legendary haberdasher, let them!

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DM Livgin wrote:
Glossary pg. 420 wrote:
Background A background represents a profession or other significant aspect of your life before becoming an adventurer. Backgrounds give you ability boosts, signature skills, and feats. Learn more on page 38.

Although technically correct, this should read Lore skills instead of signature skills.

If it is any comfort, it looks like signature skills may have been part of backgrounds but got edited out?

Technically all Lore skills are Signature skills.

Playtest, pg. 151 wrote:
Second, all of your Lore skills are signature skills (see page 144). This means that you can advance them to expert or legendary proficiency if you so choose.

Still, I agree with you. The description in the Backgrounds is much better.

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Porridge wrote:

(Would need to do something for slings too, to make them viable.)

Alchemical payloads that make them the best weapon for delivering ‘special’ ammunition.

Right now, I only find one thing — the Stone Bullet, item level 14, does stone to flesh — but it would make sense that it is a lot easier to package alchemical and magical specials in a sling bullet than it is an arrow.

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NyarIathotep wrote:

Let's say we have a level 7 rogue who has reached Master level of proficiency in deception, and has a charisma of 20. She's a darn good liar, with a proficiency bonus of her level (7) +2 (Master) +5 (charisma) for a total of +14.

Now let's say we have a level 20 dwarven wizard with a charisma of 8, who is untrained in deception. Her proficiency bonus alone, despite being untrained, is 18, because being untrained still lets you add your entire level -2 to your skill check, and even with the lowest possible charisma in the game, this dwarf is still a better liar than the above rogue.

That level 7 Rogue likely has some skill feats to use with that skill. Something like Charming Liar so that the person they are talking to starts to like them, or perhaps Confabulator so that targets have less of a chance of seeing some of your other lies.

Your level 20 Wizard also can’t feint in combat since they are not trained in Deception. The table on pg. 143 calls out where you need training in order to use the skills in some way.

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Signature skill prevents people from getting the highest levels of training in skills that the game designers have decided that class shouldn’t have.

The only way I have found to add Signature skills is by using the archetypes found starting on pg. 279 of the Playtest rule book.

There are no more ‘class skills’ that give you an edge in a skill at the low levels. It isn’t until 7th level that the signature skills determine who is best at a skill. That is when the classes allow you to advance to Master in a skill.

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I am having similar issues.

The worst about repeated text I feel are Ability Boosts and Ancestry Feats in each class and the Basic/Expert/Master <insert class name> Spellcasting from the multiclassing rules.

I like that they show them on the table, but really am not so fond of the same repeated text in every class entry.

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
BretI wrote:
Where it doesn't make as much sense are things like Discerning Smell, Obsessive, Flame Heart, Razor Teeth and some of the other ancestors feats.
All of those except Obsessive are heritage feats, which can only be taken at level 1. I feel like Obsessive though is one of the easiest ones to justify later though- you just didn't discover the one topic that is close to your heart until later level, at which point you dove wholeheartedly into it.

Missed that they were heritage feats. Not surprising, I’m sure there are a lot of things I’m still not groking about the rules yet. I generally need to break things down and figure out what information is most key on a topic.

I am really feeling like with a lot of the stuff you need to be 5th level before you have abilities roughly equivalent to a 3rd level PF1 character.

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You need to read through the rules a little bit more.

All classes are limited to becoming no better than Expert unless they have the skill as a Signature skill. There are a lot of classes that have at least one skill which a Rogue doesn’t get on their list of Signature skills. Starting at 7th level, the Paladin, Monk and Cleric are likely to be better at Religion than the Rogue while the Druid and Ranger are going to be better at Survival than the Rogue.

The only way I can find that a Rogue has of adding new Signature skills is via Multiclassing or Archetypes. Doing that damages their ability to take the Rogue feats.

The Alchemist on the other hand has class feats to add Signature skills. Tricky Tinkerer adds Thievery while Stalker adds Stealth. They can also pick up Nature and Religion as Signature skills via Awakened Intellect.

The Alchemist appears to me to have the widest ability for Signature skills. They are limited in how many of those they can get to Legendary, but they have the most choices.

Looks to me like once again the Rogue is the easiest class to completely replace.

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I agree that many we were given should be at first level, but disagree that all of them should be.

I think it makes sense that the Weapon Cunning (Dwarf) or Weapon Elegance (Elf) would take time to grow into. You are perfecting the form you started with in Weapon Familiarity. In fact, I would say they probably should add another that is Weapon Perfection where you can get to a higher proficiency level with your racial weapons. Allow an Elven Mage to become Expert or Rogue to become Legendary with a Bow.

Where it doesn't make as much sense are things like Discerning Smell, Obsessive, Flame Heart, Razor Teeth and some of the other ancestors feats.

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Andy Brown wrote:
Ragnavald Urgirson wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:
I think that these could stand to be replaced by some other flavorful minor benefit appropriate to half-elves and half-orcs, though I could not suggest anything myself.
Maaaaaaaaybe actual fully detailed Ancestries instead of Feat Taxes :3
This, it is a sad half-orc who cannot get proficiency in greataxe until 4th level due to bad feat taxes.

Yeah, this.

"I've never been able to use a greataxe before, but suddenly I know what I'm doing. Must have been because I watched great-grandma use one before I left home"

Better than that, you get your choice between proficiency or dark-vision!

Half-orcs can no longer start the game with dark vision.

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Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Using the iconic's gear isn't a good way to evaluate whether something needs to be changed as they're extremely suboptimal. Just look at poor Harsk who shoots a crossbow every other round at all levels.

Pregens are what people often use when playing at a convention and what people learning the game look at when first trying to build a character of their own. Considering the cost of each alchemical weapon, a starting character is unlikely to have more than one or two such items,

Also, you should get a new copy of the pregens. At first level, Harsk now has:
Feats Rapid Reload (heavy crossbow)

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The CR 2 Bat Swarm isn’t a lot of fun for low level characters either.

It has a fly speed better than most character’s move speed, enough hit points to take multiple hits, and a touch AC high enough that characters are going to have trouble hitting.

Seoni has a single scroll of Burning Hands, Ezren has it in memory so he could cast it twice (using his Arcane Bond for the second casting), Amiri has a single flask of acid, Lini has a single flask of acid, Valeros and Merisiel each have both alchemist fire and acid,

Burning Hands has a Reflex Save of +7 for half damage, just to add insult to the situation.

PF2 has Alchemist as a core class, so we could add in Damiel and their seven bombs. That class is able to take it out all by themselves. Without him, you’ve got problems.

Oh, and writers usually give some indication there are undead allowing you to adjust your preparation. I can’t recall any scenarios that warn of swarms.

In 3.0 you could use a torch to injure swarms. I’ve been told that rule exists in 3.5 as well. That change alone would make them much more manageable.

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Inject Nanobots can cause the Confused state.

Inject Nanobots, pg. 361:

School necromancy
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range touch
Targets one living creature or construct
Duration instantaneous and 1 round/level; see text
Saving Throw Fortitude partial and Will partial, see text;
Spell Resistance yes

You concentrate key particles in your blood into tiny biological nanobots that you can inject into a foe with a touch, disrupting and damaging its natural processes. Make a melee attack against the target's EAC; if you hit, the nanobots deal 4d8 damage and swarm through the target's biological or mechanical systems, causing the creature to be confused, as per confusion, for 1 round per your caster level. If the target succeeds at a Fortitude save, it takes only half damage and negates the confusion effect. A confused target can attempt a Will saving throw at the beginning of its turn each round to end the confusion effect.

Casting this spell doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

Confused, pg. 273-4:
You are mentally befuddled and can't act normally. You can't tell the difference between ally and foe, and thus you treat all creatures as enemies, even your closest friends and family, if applicable. An ally who wishes to cast a beneficial spell on you with a range of touch must succeed at an attack roll against your Energy Armor Class, since you cannot be considered a willing target. If you are attacked while you're confused, you always attack the creature that last attacked you until that creature is dead or out of sight, unless it is otherwise impossible for you to attack it that round.

While confused, you can't make attacks of opportunity against any creature or thing that you aren't already committed to attacking. If you are not devoted to attacking a target, roll on the following table at the beginning of your turn each round to see what you do in that round.

1–25 Act normally.
26–50 Do nothing but babble incoherently.
51–75 Deal 1d8 + Str modifier damage to self with item in hand.
76–100 Attack nearest creature.

If you can't carry out the indicated action, you do nothing but babble incoherently. Attackers are not at any special advantage when attacking you.

So I have a few questions about this.

Saving throws against Confusion
By my reading, in most cases a person would get two saves before acting confused: one when hit and another at the start of their turn. The only way to not give the second check would be to hit with an Attack of Opportunity or have a Readied Attack.

Is that correct?

Order of operation, spell damage and confusion
Would the spell damage happen before they become confused?

Normally a confused creature will attack the last one who last did damage to it. A Technomancer generally doesn’t want a creature to focus their attacks on them. If the spell causes the creature to always focus on the one who cast the spell, that seems like a problem.

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I will have to experiment with this, see how it actually works out.

It does mean that each time they bring out a class, they need to also bring out the multiclass chain. Considering they couldn’t do that for all the classes they have in the playtest, seems like this will be a problem.

*** Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

Almost every campaign I have ever been in has had campaign rules. Many of them are never written down so people coming in mid-way are often caught completely be surprise by them.

PFS has their own campaign rules, but they are written down. There are still cases that may not be clear or that different people interpret differently, but overall I think they do a reasonable job of explaining things.

The only thing in this thread that is really being debated is the rules for acquiring spells at Seeker level -- specifically levels 13 and higher. Most people don't play at those levels. I currently don't have any characters at that level, although I'm hoping to get one soon.

I haven't had time yet to go back through the rules and find specific quotes to cover the high level play. I plan to look later this weekend.

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j b 200 wrote:
Is it August 2nd yet?

I'm sure it is August 2nd in some other dimension or timeline.

It is still a little ways away in my own dimension, but we know time doesn't flow equally in all of them! As for other timelines, well that is way above my level of competence in math!

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I am still trying to juggle exactly what this means in terms of options. I look forward to finally being able to see the complete playtest book once it is released in PDF. I expect that will allow me to better judge some of the tradeoffs.

I do think it is a reasonable decision to put it in the Playtest because the PF2 Playtest is likely to be much more thorough than later playtests. They can use what they learn from doing it for half-orcs and half-elves when they later allow things like Dragon Heritage.

I think that for most of the physical heritages that may come in the future (dragon, celestial, infernal, etc) it is alright if they can't be mixed. I am not convinced that is the case for half-elf or half-orc.

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I like the idea of Strength reducing ACP!

In PF1, Strength often limits what one can carry, but it depends on people actually tracking their encumbrance. I am not convinced everyone pays attention to that and it can be very fiddly trying to do so.

I don't have enough experience with Starfinder Bulk to say if it is easier to survive on a low strength. Even if it isn't, it is quite likely you could use one of your attribute upgrades to improve it when it starts becoming a problem. I mention Starfinder Bulk because I know that PF2 intends to use Bulk and if that is the case I hope the systems are the same.

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NaN means Not a Number.

I would guess it is a mistake where someone did a calculation that failed, such as a divide by zero. I would treat it as zero unless you can get an errata from the publisher.

*** Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Bret Indrelee wrote:

Also, there are restrictions on NPC spell access.

Thats for getting it cast, not putting it into your book

Given some of the other things in the guide, I’m not so sure.

Any Seeker with sufficient Fame and experience can purchase scrolls containing 7th-, 8th-, and 9th-level spells, following the price guidelines in the Core Rulebook. Access to these spells is restricted to scrolls and is not available for spellcasting services. Upon reaching 13th level, Seekers are eligible to select spells or purchase 7th-level scrolls. Upon reaching 15th level, they are eligible to select spells or purchase 8th-level scrolls. Upon reaching 17th level, they are eligible to select spells or purchase 9th-level scrolls.

The above is a specific exemption for high level characters. It still does not allow spellcasting services but makes it clear when they get access to higher level spells.

I believe this means you can’t hire an NPC to copy spells off until you reach the point where you could get the scrolls.

*** Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

Also, there are restrictions on NPC spell access.

Roleplaying Guild Guide wrote:
Spells that are 7th level or higher can't be purchased from hired spellcasters, unless listed as available by your faction or Table 4–2 below.

Read the section there on spells as well.

You also have the restrictions from Additional Resources such as only someone of the given race can learn or cast the racial spells in the Advanced Race Guide.


They had to allow some way for a Wizard to expand their book. If they hadn’t, the prestige classes such as Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight (who don’t automatically get free spells as they level) wouldn’t have a way to learn spells to fill their higher level spell slots.

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Am I correct in thinking Ulfen, Tien, Varisian and other cultural elements were going to be handled by Heritage feats?

If so, none of the half-races can gain these.

Seems like that would be a problem as well.

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Brother Fen wrote:
Learning how to deal with swarms is part of the game. No need to nerf everything. Once a character or two gets eaten to the bone, they'll figure it out.

As part of a party that nearly TPKed to a swarm, I disagree.

Our party had a Wizard with Burning Hands in memory. We also had multiple people with splash weapons to use against it. The Wizard called on his Arcane Bond to get an extra use of Burning Hands. We still just barely managed to take it out because of low damage rolls.

Martial characters need a better way to deal with them than requiring a magical item that allows them to hurt the swarm.

*** Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

Happy to have survived playing SFS 1-11 In Pursuit of the Scoured Past! I wanted to get this in before bringing my character to the SFS special in PbP Gameday VII.

Although I didn’t like that cannon has now established such a library (tagged spoilers below), it did have a number of very interesting things going for it. I like the descriptions of the library and some of the rooms in it. My character hated some of the things he saw there.

The problem for our group came at the end battle. We had three people at the table playing pregens and the battle was one of the toughest I’ve hit so far. We had two people go down and everyone was low on hit points when it did end. With a different group, it might have been considerably easier.

I do think it is a fun scenario. On the other hand, my character would really like to go back sometime and renegotiate how the library operates.

Why I didn’t like the library as part of cannon:
I think the library was more lawful evil than lawful neutral. In my opinion based on the way it was presented to us the keepers had no regards for life, liberty, or maintaining information.

I have not read the scenario yet. It is possible some of it was the way I interpreted what the GM presented. My character wouldn’t have liked it in any case, being he is chaotic good.

*** Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

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I think the original poster did things right. They spotted a problem, then made some inquiries and were given reason to believe that a full audit would uncover more.

Asking them to play a pregen at that point seems a perfectly reasonable response.

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