Brent's page

Ah well. Nothing like a robust debate amongst gamer geeks to get the old blood perculating eh? I still think the adventure works fine even with paladins, but I see why others might not. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Anyway, it's the weekend, time for some gaming!!

Steve Greer wrote:

I'll keep that in mind. You have to realize that when you post something like your original post, you're going to get wanted and unwanted replies. Chock mine up to the UNwanted replies. That's cool. If you're having fun, your players all like the changes and support it 100%, then that's all that matters. I just saw a lot of holes in using this approach to this AP, and still do. That doesn't matter, though. Having fun together with your players does. I can respect that.

It's all good. I appreciate all the feedback; it's got me thinking that in future editions of D&D Fly, Improved Invis, and Teleport should just be class features instead of spells. If they're that fundamental/necessary--if the game just doesn't work/can't work without them--then they're not really a choice, are they? Those abilities should just be given to every member of the class.

Kind of like how all clerics can heal, even if they don't prepare any healing spells.

Having fun is what really matters. I certainly didn't mean to imply otherwise. I do think those abilities are critical to the success of the party in STAP, much more so later on. I would not personally enjoy playing under the restrictions you agreed on, but it sounds like you and your party do, so have a blast and launch someone at a ship via catapault in honor of this thread!!!

When I have time I will look at the other adventures and try to point out other problem areas. Best of luck to you and yours!!

To address the OP's question about how the party would know that Ahazu would accept a CR 19 creature and his own tooth as payment, there is an obvious simple answer. The party has had his tooth for awhile. Since it is an artifact associated with he and his followers, let him detect it's presence and offer a compromising bargain. Have him tell the party when he demands a creature of greater power to Shami Amoure that he will accept a creature of Shami's power if they will also return the artifact of his followers to him that is in their posession. They have had the tooth since Tides of Dread, and since it is an artifact and he can communicate with the mind of one of the PC's to make his demands anyway, just have him offer that as a compromise when he makes the initial offer. The adventure is very clear that Ahazu wants the tooth back badly, which is why he would accept a creature of CR 19 to begin with. Having him demand the artifact with a lesser replacement prisoner isn't any "wonkier" than asking them for a replacement prisoner or their souls in the first place.

First let me say QFT to Steve as well!!! He expands on exactly what I am saying and adds very good points of his own. This really does stink of a DM who is upset some players "messed up his beautiful encounter" with these spells in the past so he decided to ban them instead of plan for them. That really isn't fun for the players. They all agreed, but that doesn't mean everyone liked it, and I also would love to be a fly on the wall the first time somone dies when a spell like this would have saved them. All that said...

I have gone back through and looked again at the entire AP from There is No Honor all the way through Tides of Dread this morning, and what you are doing will likely amount to character death if not outright TPK in several places. If you insist on going with it, then you should at least be aware of the problem areas. In the spirit of trying to help with that, here are just the obvious ones off the top of my head that lack of access to the specific spells you list are potentially lethal...

There is No Honor: No real problem areas as long as everyone plays smart

Bullywug's Gambit: Again no real problems

Sea Wyvern's Wake: Sutolore might be challenging if he stays in the air and breath weapons everyone to death. Navigating the Sargasso will be tough if noone can get airborne to scout. Additionally, the Mother of All battle could rapidly devolve into a TPK if the casters are all grappled by assasin vines or vine horrors while still dealing with the Mother's other abilities. The fly spell is a big help in the Mother of All fight to let a caster get above the range of the vine grapple abilities and away from the Mother's Babbling ability.

Here There Be Monsters: Olangru and his mates are downright unfair if you can't do something to improve your tactical mobility against their superior spead, pounce and skirmish damage combos, and at will teleports with abduction. In the temple, the Lemorian Golem is probably instant death to an arcane caster without dimension door because of it's high grapple, automatic constrict and constitution damaging attacks coupled with the arcane caster's low grapple, hp, and fort saves.

Tides of Dread: The legendary Tyrannosaurus could really put a hurting on a grappled caster as could the emerald anaconda outside the temple. The inability to get out to the Crimson Fleet ships quickly in the attack on farshore could be problematic. That is especially true is someone can't dimension door or fly out to the ship that has V'Sesslin on board. He can literally decimate the entire town with enlarged fireballs and if you don't have a way to check from ship to ship quickly it may be impossible to find the point of origin of all those enlarged fireballs. That almost insures Farshore is reduced to cinders. Assuming you allow them to pinpoint the Yuan-ti's ship without getting to them to search, then that should be ok, but the biggest problem in this adventure is the fight with Vanthus. He and his 3 Vrock bodyguards can all fly. So the Vrocks can just get out of the party's range and do a dance of ruin till everyone is dead. Trying to stop the dance without anyone in the air is suicide. If the casters just try to blast away at the Vrocks without invisibility, then Vanthus will simply attack them to prevent that. If they can't dimension door to a range where Vanthus can't disrupt them with a single move and charge, then they are going to have a hard time bringing down even one Vrock in 3 rounds. No archer at 12th level can make up for the crippled caster enough to compensate. This could easily be a TPK within only 3 rounds and Farshore will fall.

These are just the first 5 or so adventures, so I haven't even got to later adventures where things get genuinely difficult and found at least 6 or 7 instances that could be quite lethal without access to this sort of magic. Every party is different, but even if the rest of the party can handle it while their arcane caster hides in the rear, how is that fair or fun for the caster? These are just quick obvious examples. A careful examination would undoubtedly find more. Keep it in mind when characters start to die and know that access to one spell on that list would have let their character survive, that they will have a justifiable reason to be angry. Noone likes to lose a character, but losing one when you agreed to ban some spells before you realized how useful they would be is enough to make the average player get mad enough to find a new group to play with. Beyond that I can only reitirate what Steve has said and say I couldn't agree more!!

I reviewed the adventure last night and noticed something else. You can actually get Shami out by giving over the tooth of Ahazu and a CR 19 replacement. A CR 19 replacement is easy to get. Use a gate spell to summon a Molydeus or Balor or something and kill it. Cast a greater blanar binding and a Minimus Containment Binding Spell and you can capture a Pit Fiend (has 18 HD) and offer that to Ahazu plus the Tooth of Ahazu to free Shami. The tooth is acquired way back in Tides of Dread in the Temple of Zotzillaha. In that way, noone has to sacrifice themselves and combat isn't even necessary. The adventure states Ahazu will accept an incapacitated CR 19 creature and his tooth as payment for Shami, so use Planar Binding and the Binding spell (both 8th level spells) to get a Pit Fiend inside a gemstone and give it and the tooth to Ahazu and you don't have to worry about selling yoru soul and all that. Problem solved. You get Shami's help, you trap a Pit Fiend in the Wells of Darkness, and you don't have to give your souls to Ahazu. I would think the Paladin would be fairly thrilled.

I don't think taking away the arcane caster's tactical options makes the game a "tad bit grittier". It reeks of the sort of thing where a DM gets it into their heads that a player can't make a powerful character and at the same time role-play the scary aspects of being desparately trapped in the wild. I find that notion to be the same sort of rationalization that some DM's use to complain that the game isn't fun because it isn't more of a meat grinding blood bath, because players have easier access to magic than they did in 1st edition. I played 1st edition D&D in the heady days when finding a +1 sword was a major accomplishment and Wizards had to wait for their DM to give them spells via spellbooks or scrolls because the game had no mechanism for them to learn them regularly on their own.

The ability for a grappled wizard to free himself from the maw of an enraged Tyrannosaurus a couple of times a day is not broken. The ability to make oneself invisible for a few minutes to scout out an enemy camp or throw a fireball without advertising to the world that you are a soft mushy wizard waiting to be crushed to paste isn't broken either. The decision to take those spells away is arbitrary and shouts out that the game can't handle spells like that unless they are at the highest levels or banned altogether. In a world where Dragons exist and Demonic and Diabolic forces are a very real threat, how is the ability to cast a spell to get you home when trapped in the middle of the Dark Forest of Death and Doom unbalancing?

I had a DM once that took this very stance on these sorts of spells, but had no problem with the Cleric Air Walking or me (I was playing a Druid) turning into a hawk to do the same. It was an unecessary punishment for the arcane caster of our group. Initially he also agreed with our DM on the issue though several of the players including myself disagreed. Early on it wasn't a big deal when we faced things like Goblins or a Displacer Beast. Later though when we had to deal with more complex adversaries, like Dragons, or Demons that could fly and teleport themselves, our party's wizard died about 3 times as often as anyone else in the group in a game where we were playing through a remake of one of the classic meatgrinder dungeons (Maure Castle), largely because the Wizard didn't have the same tactical options as the other casters because the DM had banned certain spells.

That was unnecessary and ended up with the player leaving D&D for good. Was it worth it to make the game "grittier" at the expense of the arcane caster? If the Wizard/Sorcerer has to make that sacrifice, what sacrifices are the other characters making? That is why it is unfair. If you are going to take those 4 spells from the Wizard, then you have to take all similar magic from all classes equally across the board. Otherwise you are setting up a situation that will cause resentment later on. I would love to hear about how the groups Druid would feel if he was told he couldn't shape shift into forms that can fly. Or if the party's cleric is told they can't Air Walk or Plane Shift. I would also love to hear how the party is even supposed to get to the wells of darkness since the Wake Portal can't take them there in the 10th adventure if all teleporting and plane transporting magic is denied to them later on. Or how they are going to survive the 3 flying Vrocks at the end of Tides of Dread and their Dance of Ruin if noone can get into the air to stop them while fighting Vanthus.

It is all cool in the beginning until the arcane caster realizes their character is less effective than it should be compared to his teammates and realizes that he/she is the only one who had spells removed from their list when other party members can do the same thing through other methods. All a Wizard has is his spells. Take those away and what is he supposed to do? He can't shapeshift. He doesn't have other class features to keep him alive. He can't wear armor. His poor base attack and saving throws mean he likely has no hope of surviving in a grapple. What's more, the DM will know the character doesn't have those options so when they face the Lemorian Golem in HTBM, I'm sure the arcane caster will be the first one grappled by the golem because he has no way of getting away or fighting back and will be crushed to rotted paste within a few rounds.

Lastly, again do what works for your party, but realize there may be quite a bit of resentment from your players and the perception of bias against specific players once it sinks in that everyone has their full gambit of abilities except the arcane caster who has had most of his low and mid level tactical option spells taken away before the game ever even started.

The thing I find annoying about this thread is the OP's generalization that using these spells somehow makes the game cheesy and that those who use them in their games aren't playing with "grit". I call BS on that. Being able to fly or teleport over short ranges is no more "cheesy" than being able to blast an enemy with fire or travel to another plane of existence to battle the prince of demons. If the fantastic elements of D&D bother you that much why not ban all spellcasting and magic. You could call the game "some guys in a field beating each other with sticks" and get all the grit in the world that you want.

If you think Fly or Dimension door are broken, then you probably think resurrection shouldn't be allowed or that energy immunity when fighting a dragon makes the characters cheesy for casting spells to help survive. Why not take away the Druid's shape changing? Why arbitrarily pick those 4 spells and why only from the sorcerer wizard list? Why not take away the best spells for every spellcasting class. Take Summon Nature's Ally from the Druid and healing from the cleric. Isn't it broken that your group doesn't have to rest up in a sick bed for 3 months after a battle like real people? Is it fair that only the druid can fly now since they have the ability to shapechange naturally when the Wizard/Sorcerer doesn't?

That's what makes the whole discussion so absurd. It's like banning these four spells will make the game SOOOO much better than it was with them. It's like saying "Wow if WotC would just eliminate those 4 spells then there wouldn't be any power gaming or twinking anymore." Why not start an email campaign to get them to do just that? Better yet, why not just randomly roll dice to see which class features and spells all of your players will be denied access to. That way everyone is discriminated against equally.

Of course yet another possibility is that if the party doesn't want to draw on abyssal allies to stop Demogorgon they should stop whining about it and just go try to deal with the version of him that hasn't been weakened by distraction. Good doesn't mean stupid or morally inflexible. If that is how your players want to play it, then there are consequences for terminal stuborness and stupidity in the D&D game. It isn't always possible to go call on an alliance of Archons and Eladrins to battle the forces of evil. If it were, perhaps the forces of good would have already expunged the taint of evil from the multiverse. As it is, that doesn't make for a very interesting game anyway. If all the help you need is free and without consequence, why bother doing anything at all. Just appeal to the benevolent forces of good to do the deed for you since that is what they are "supposed" to do anyway.

I suspect most groups will actually derive great glee in causing the forces of the abyss to go to war with one another, even if it means having to be kissed by a demon queen or making a hollow promise to vestige bound bat demon demigod wannabe. The adventure is awesome and I think a lot of the folks complaining on this Paladin issue are missing the forest for the trees. JMVHO.

If your players want these changes then naturally you should do what is fun for you and your group. That said, it isn't a flaw in the adventure design to expect players to have those sorts of abilities, and the abilities themselves are not imbalancing. Just making a blanket statement that tactical movement spells are broken is inaccurate and denying them to players on that basis is unfair and not in the spirit of the game.

Again do what works for your group, but don't get irritated that the game design in the later adventures assumes access to such magic. It is a natural and well thought out premise. Further there is nothing wrong with that. Those spells are very solid options every arcane caster should consider and wanting to use them isn't anymore "broken" than hurling fireballs and lightning bolts.

Well if you do an area dispell it won't take near that many actions because it will probably be the only spell cast on the giants. But it is good to hear from some one that is far enough along in the AP that they have actually run the encounter. That's impressive. I didn't think that there would be too many groups that would have played that adventure yet. Good stuff.

An area dispel is only an effective tactic if the enemies a grouped together far enough away that the area dispel won't also dispel the fly spells cast on the party, and even then only if it can catch all the enemies at once. If you have the giants surround them, they will have to decide if they want to try to dispel one giant at a time or try to fight instead. That is the party's decision. An area dispel will only effect I think a 20' radius, so it is easy to spread out Enderan's group so they aren't vulnerable to that tactic.

My party still had a relatively easy time with Enderan, but I wasn't bothered by it because they had a significantly harder time with Gorgant and Obox-Ob earlier on in the adventure. They made the mistake of engagin Gorgant after releasing Obox-Ob and ended up having to fight both. That resulted in two near PC deaths, whereas the Enderan fight noone was really in danger of dieing, so much as they just had to expend a lot of resources to win.

Just wondering how this battle went. Have you run it yet Office_Ninja?

I think it is a bad idea to restrict spells like that. It gives the feeling that spellcasters are being arbitrarily punished so that they can't "ruin" the game. Spells like Fly and Dimension door are short duration tactical spells that make surviving combat easier for the caster who already suffers from poor hit points and low AC. Greater Invisibility, is designed to give a caster a way to blast stuff without immediately putting a huge bulls eye on his chest that says to every opponent in the encounter "kill me first!!!". Spells like Teleport and Greater Teleport already have inherent weaknesses built in. With Teleport it is the miss chance. Want to teleport to civilization? If it isn't a place you are intimately familiar with better be ready to be off by a hundred miles or so. In the STAP getting from the Isle of Dread to say Sasserine, that might mean teleporting into the air directly over the ocean in a hurricane. That is an inherent risk. If the caster wants to take it, then he should be able to get to civilazation if he succeeds. There is a reason that mundane ships and such exist in a world where casters can teleport and the like. The ship is more reliable, and the caster might prefer to have an extra fireball there to kill the next Tyrannosaurus he fights instead of wasting it on a Teleport he will likely only use if things get dire. In the case of Greater Teleport, there is no miss chance, but if your party greater teleports everywhere, then they miss out on the treasure and experience they could have gotten from the encounters on the way. So there is already a built in trade off. By teleporting to bypass encounters, they are losing valuable treasure and XP that may be needed to overcome the final challenges they will face later. Further, Greater Teleport requires you to know where you are going. That is a lot easier with high level divinations, but are you going to ban those too? Either way, I have never seen a party that would willingly give up treasure and XP just so they can bypass half the adventure to go straight to fight the 35 HD Fiendish Fang Dragon. Most players aren't that stupid. They know they need the XP and treasure to make their characters strong enough to survive the battle with Khala the Twin-Headed. If they aren't smart enough to realize that, then they will learn it when they are making their new character because their 12th level wizard got killed because he should have been 15th level if he had done everything he was supposed to in the adventure instead of bypassing it with a teleport.

I think it is never good or fair as a DM to arbitrarily take things away from the characters. The D&D game system is built with the idea that characters will have access to certain things by certain levels. I don't see anyone clamoring to take feats away from a fighter or the animal companion from a ranger to keep them from bypassing things. Maybe you should ban Power Attack since it makes it easier for your fighters to get damage through DR or take away a Rogues sneak attack damage since it lets them get an unfair advantage on a flat footed opponent. Casters aren't anymore broken in D&D than any other class. There is a price casters pay for every ability they have. Whether that is their low hp and AC or the fact that they can teleport themselves into the middle of a brick wall. Keeping a caster alive and fun to play is dependent on the caster being able to do some things to keep themselves alive. If you take away all their tactical options you are making a fighter who can't wear armor, can't wield weapons, and occasionally gets to throw a lightning bolt and that is it. There are better ways to handle the problems you have that those spells pose. Most of it is already taken care of in the inherent balances of the game, but if that isn't enough for you, there are still better ways to handle it than to simply ban elements that are core components of the game.

I finally got my copy of 149 yesterday, and Enemies of My Enemy is one of my favourite adventrues of the path thus far. However, I do have a couple of questions/concerns regarding the encounter where Demogorgon strikes back.

According to the adventure it is supposed to be a climax of sorts to the adventure. However, as cool as undead stone giants riding bodak T-RExs are, it doesn't seem like a very effective strike force to send at the party.

First of all there doesn't seem to be any reason for the party to actually stick around and fight them. Why bother? Why not just plane shift or teleport away and avoid them altogether? The only way I see for demogorgon's minions to get around this tactic is to try to blackmail the party by threatening to unleash their wrath on various material plane settlements if the heroes don't stick around and fight.

Assuming the general can actually convince the party to do battle with him, there is still the sticky matter with them not being able to naturally fly. Yes the general has unlimited use of the fly spell like ability and I would make sure he cast it on everyone in his party before battle. But the PCs will be air born as well and will have more access to dispelling magic that can ground their enemies. Once they are grounded the heroes can pretty much stay in the air and use ranged attacks and spells to decimate his forces.

To me it would make a lot more sense to use minions that can fly naturally, and some spell casters that could try to keep the characters in place with dimensional anchor or lock spells.

Is anyone esle thinking this encounter needs to be changed to be effective? It is supposed to be a climactic point in the adventure afterall.

I don't know about your group, but with mine they had done so much raw diplomacy gathering allies at that point in the adventure, that they were itching for a fight. So I had no problem with players running away. As for the entire group flying to avoid Enderan and his minions that didn't really happen either. The party didn't waste time getting everyone buffed to fly, as they wanted to attack from the get go. If your party does want to fly to attack, have the undead stone giants hurl rocks at them. Enderan can cast fly at will, so there is no reason for him to not have casted it on his entire group before the fight even happens. Since fly is an at will spell for Enderan, the party will run out of dispelling magic before he runs out of fly spells. By the same token, if they are wasting actions just to continue dispelling his fly magic, then they aren't using those actions to use offensive magic to defeat their enemies. If they want to spend 2 or 3 rounds dispelling flying magic while they are swarmed by the rest of the zombies and such, then let them. They will eventually realize it makes more sense to actully take the offensive then sit around trying to force 5 different opponents to the ground. If you have Enderan cast it on the Bodaks and the Zombies, then they are looking at 9 opponents with fly active, all who should spread out. That means a total of 9 actions to get everyone on the ground if all the dispel attempts work. Your party probably has at most 2 or 3 members that can cast dispels, so even if the whole group focuses on that it will take 3 rounds to get everyone down. While that is happening, the strike force will be ripping the party to small pieces.

Additionally, Enderan also has a SR of 30. Even if the party has 20th level casters at that point, they have 50/50 odds of affecting him with a spell that allows SR. There are a few spells that don't allow SR, but that at least limits your party's casters tactical options. Have Enderan make liberal use of darkness to take away line of sight and provide concealment against range attacks. Lastly, have the whole strike force attack them by suprise and from the air and you will have little worry of the things you are concerned about.

I feel confident that the lack of volume in the OGL material will cause the Paizo folks to be very creative in what they make for Pathfinder. Personally, I would be as happy as a pig eating slop if the D&D license just belonged to Paizo. They already have the best minds in the industry working for them, and they have a healthy respect for the history and origins of the game. Once Dungeon is done, I will gladly be getting every Pathfinder issue, and likely making most of my homebrew world based off Varisia instead of any of Wizards published settings.

With the incredible job these guys did with the first 3 AP's, I can't wait to see what they are going to do with expanding on the OGL material as time progresses.

What in the nine hells? Out of stock already?! I didn't even have time to get in my order! Please dear god tell me you are printing more as we speak!

I doubt it is already sold out. It isn't even available for purchase yet as it didn't even ship to subscribers til today. I do hope that there are more available later in the month though as I intend to buy an extra back copy of all the Savate Tide issues to have since the probability of a hardcover seems low. Either way, this being the final issue will be a collectors item, so I may have to go the ebay rout to get a second copy beyond what I will get from my subscription. Time will tell.

savagedave22 wrote:

I was hoping that my boy Wayne Reynolds was painting the cover for this last Issue! And he did an amazing job!!! It looks to be all about the Savage Tide, I don't see Info about any other adventures Inside? That's gonna piss some people off but I actually will love It, that's all I have really been paying attention to this past year anyway. Well can't wait to get my hands on It!

DAve

Don't worry. There are two other adventures in there. One of them is an update of the original adventure from the blue box or something. I don't know the specifics, for I wasn't even born back in those days.

Whichever adventure had Bargle in it. That's the one.

Actually that was the red box for those of us dinosaurs who played back in the day with those sets. It was the first of the box sets with the blue box as number two, a sort of teal green box as number 3 and a black box as number 4. Those were the days. I can't wait to see what nastiness Demo has in store in this adventure. We have his CR 33 stats from DoI. I suspect that is the high end the characters can get with at least 1 to 2 other stat blocks depending on how successful the characters are in weakening him before hand.

What an absolutely gorgeous final cover. It is appropriate that the final issue of Dungeon be covered by all the Paizo iconics facing down perhaps the most iconic villain in D&D. The Prince of Demons himself. I can't wait to see what the Savage Tide endgame has in store for us. That issue can't get into my greedy hands soon enough.

I do hope that an AoW hardcover sees the light of day one day. That said, I doubt it is anytime in the next few year at the soonest. Looking at WotC product schedule for next spring they are publishing all of 2 D&D books in the first quarter. I suspect we will have our 4th Ed. announcement at Gen Con, and then we will finally be able to acknowledge the big elephant standing in the room over there at Wizard's. After that we will see what happens. Personally, I am taking a wait and see approach with everything at Wizard's right now. I think the primary reason there has been so little info on the digital initiative is that they are waiting til they announce 4th ed. at Gen Con. We will see if I am right, but I think all the signs point that way. What that means for any hardcover compilations of AoW or STAP for that matter is anyone's guess.

Brent wrote:

I was going to go ahead and set up my pathfinder subscription today, but I wanted to ask a question. Since the subscriptions are month to month, when can I expect my bank account to be billed for it? Specifically, when will the bill for the first issue come out of my account, and in general, when will it come out each month going forward? Thanks in advance for the help!!!

You get charged at the moment we ship your copy. There's no set date for each month, partly because Pathfinder comes on a boat from China, and has to go through US Customs, which is a process of variable length. However, we currently expect to ship Volume 1 during the first full week of August.

I believe that we expect to e-mail folks a week or so before we start shipping each volume, just so they know the charge is coming.

Many thanks. I added my Pathfinder subscription today and I couldn't be happier with the decision. I think you guys are gonna have a great product.

I was going to go ahead and set up my pathfinder subscription today, but I wanted to ask a question. Since the subscriptions are month to month, when can I expect my bank account to be billed for it? Specifically, when will the bill for the first issue come out of my account, and in general, when will it come out each month going forward? Thanks in advance for the help!!!

Thanks guys!!

I was just looking at my subscriptions this morning to see when the final issue of Dungeon was going to ship, and I had a question. Under the my subscriptions tab, it says that my Dungeon subscription has expired and that issue #149 shipped June 19th. I already recieved 149, but I was wondering, did my subscription include issue 150? Again under the my subscriptions tab, it says "final issue 150", but doesn't say when that will ship. So, the first question is does my subscription include the final issue, and if it does, when is that issue scheduled to ship?

Thanks in advance for the help!!!

Brent Holmes

Yup, same crew.

I was thinking of just having Demogorgon hurl blasphemy after blasphemy at them while pummeling the evil warlock/ur-priest/eldritch disciple to death.
Even then, he might fail to beat someone's SR on a blasphemy, in which case they'll all start gating/time stopping/etc.
The aforementioned warlock/ur-priest/eldritch disciple is planning on using a candle of invocation to summon the DoI version of Dagon (his patron) for help. I'm thinking of having Dagon just awkwardly say, "Um... I don't know you... wrong number."

That's awesome. Better yet, have Dagon turn on his upstart follower and deprive him of his divine spells. Or have Dagon join in the fight against the PC's, with the Ur-Priest unable to injure Dagon or turning on his comrads and helping his patron help Demo. The blasphemy thing is a good idea because Demo can get it off every round and use his second full round of actions to greater teleport back out of their range, then rinse wash repeat until some of them drop. Demo's caster level is 25, so as long as he gets through their SR, he should annihilate them without them even getting a saving throw.

I think minions kind of wreck the whole experiment - and this is something of a 'final good bye - oh and could we have taken down Demogorgon?' type thing. Just have the players go mano a mano with the Double D and lets see who comes out on top.

And when you find a new group make sure their all newbs who don't yet know how to power game.

What I'm driving at, is if you look at Demo's abilitys, as a CR 33 most of his most powerful abilities involve bringing in minions. He can summon 90 HD of demons per day. He can cast Gate 3 times per day. After that he is a pure melee nightmare. If Office Ninja's party is the same crew that dismantled Dragotha instantly, then they are going to have a plan that involves Demo trying to get to them while they blast him to oblivion with Time Stop and Delayed Blast Fireball energy admixture spells and the like. Without Minions, Demo is too vulnerable to a "kite" strategy where the party hits and runs, hits and runs etc.

All that said, if Demo can engage them, then he is one fearsome melee threat. Still, if you don't let him use his abilties to bring in help, he isn't a true CR 33 as those abilities make up a significant portion of his power.

I'm leaving town and only have one session left with my gaming group. They've been playing Savage Tide and have just hit 17th level at the end of Into the Maw. They're horrible power-gamers, and nothing has really been able to even hurt them. So I decided that for our last session, I'm just going to throw Demogorgon at them. The full CR 33 Demonomicon of Iggwilv version. And the scary part? They might beat him.

With Demo, it's all about minions. I would have him Gate in Belcharesk and stat Belcharesk out at no less than a CR 30 himself. It says he is an elite advanced Balor Fighter 4. I would adjust his base HD up to 26 then add on 4 levels of fighter. Also, the DoI version of Demo can summon 90 HD of Demons per day. So have him bring in 4 more Balors on top of a gated in Belcharesk to help. He probably could also gate in St. Kargoth the betrayer, who is an advanced Death Knight that will appear in the final adventure as well. Beyond that, make some custom built nastys to help him out. A half fiend Warlock, Ascpects like Bagromar and Gorgant. Perhaps toss in a Barlgura with 18 levels of Cleric or something to provide Demos team with Buffs and Healing. Give him treasure to boost his powers, remembering he can make any item as though he has the requisite feats and spells. Then in the fight go no holds barred and work them over like crazy.

As I recall, you had a similar problem with Dragotha in AoW, and managed to make Kyuss tough enough to get a TPK. A CR 33 Demo with all his minions should be no less devestating in terms of total power than the advance Kyuss you made. The weakness of a power gamer is a DM who uses the same tactics. Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

Either its Obox-ob.. we know thats JJs favorite ;)

Or several, and Obox (once and future demon prince?) is included.. and there simply is no way Dragon is going away without that being done ;)

James has already said it won't be covering any one demon lord. Instead it will be a bit of info on several of the more obscure ones etc. I suspect there will something on Obox-Ob in there, but not a full write-up.

A rough rule of thumb that I use is the CR of the creature being summoned is the level of the spell * 2 - so summon monster I gives a CR of 1-2, summon monster V is a CR of 9-10, etc.

Is that just your house rule? The reason I ask is that in the PHB, the strongest creatures you can summon even with Summon Monster IX are no more than CR 12-13. The relative weakness of the summonable monsters relative to the characters level when he can cast it gets really skewed at high levels and is the primary reason it is very hard to play an effective "summoner" build. I like your idea as a house rule as it is reflective of the characters power at that point. Anyhow, just wondering where you got your formula from.

So, before this venue of discussion disappears forever, could Uncle let us in on who/what "Y" is? We all thought it was Yeenoghu, but the last published level hinted that wasn't the case.

I believe it has been confirmed that the Y is a reference to Tharizdun the Elder Elemental Eye. I could be wrong about that, but I think it came up in the thread about unsolved mysteries of the Maures.

James Jacobs wrote:

For the most part, they'll be ones that I've been mentioning here and there in previous Demonomicons. For example: You'll find out more information about Ugudenk. There's others that haven't yet been mentioned in a Demonomicon I'll be doing some stuff on too.

I love (and respect) you a little more each and every day Mr. Jacobs. Thank you.

Crossing my finger's in hope's that Adimarchus gets his long over due props.

There was A LOT of info on Adimarchus in the SCAP. So he has already had an entire adventure path built around him. Further, it is the only AP you can presently get in a hardbound compilation. That rather makes him lower on the priority list IMHO. That said, with only 6,000 words, James will likely only be able to spend a few paragraphs on each Demon Lord he talks about in the final article if he intends to include more than a handful or so. Time will tell I suspect, but I doubt there is much more about Adimarchus that will be said beyond what was covered in the SCAP.

Looking at the new cover for 149, I noticed it said it contained adventures featuring Malcanthet, Igwwilv, Orcus, Charon, and Obox-Ob. We already know the first 4 in that list get stat writeups in the Enemy of my Enemy, does that mean we are getting a CR 32 writeup for Obox-Ob like we are for Orcus? If so I think I am going to have a brain aneurysm for the joy of it. How much awesomeness can one magazine have?

Thanks James!!! If WotC does decide to include the Demonomicon in it's digital initiative, I hope they pay James to continue them. I would very much like to get writeups on at least the remaining demon lords from FCI, but I guess we will see what happens. I am very much on the fence about whether or not I will invest money in WotC digital initiative, but if there are Demonomicon articles by James in them then I will likely make the financial commitment. I believe Pathfinder will do a spectacular job of replacing the content I was getting in Dungeon, so I will likely subscribe, but there isn't really a good source to replace the lost content from Dragon. I subscribed to Dragon exclusively for the Demonomicon articles and the AP support articles. Pathfinder will include it's own support material. So really the Demonomicon is what I will miss the most.

Regardless, thanks for the response.

Hi James,

First let me say that my favorite part of Dragon magazine has been the demonomicon of Iggwliv articles you have written on the various Demon Lords. I know that we are getting a write-up of Orcus at CR 32 in Dungeon, and there is one final Demonomicon article in Dragon 359. All that said, there is something I was hoping you could help with. As near as I can tell, the only Demon Lords from FCI that won't have had an advanced write-up by the time Dragon finishes are Grazz't, Obox-Ob, Pale Night, Juiblex, and Yeenoghu. All of that said, I can advance those remaining Demon Lords using the rules outlined in FCI, but the one thing it didn't cover is the unique abilities to give the advanced Demon Lords. In my case, there are two specific Demon Lords from that list I need to advance for my home campaign that aren't covered in a Demonomicon article or in Dungeon, Grazz't and Obox-Ob. I can do all the number crunching and adding feats etc. using the formula from FCI, but I don't have a good idea what sorts of unique abilities to give the two of them. As examples of the sorts of things I am talking about, abilities like Demogorgons Aura of Demonic Command and Ability to summon 90 HD worth of Demons per day. So I was wondering if you could give some "unofficial" suggestions for what sorts of abilities to give them.

Also, I know from another thread, that you said Grazzt would have been around CR 32 if he had gotten a Demonomicon article, but what CR would you have chosen for Obox-Ob? If any of this can't be given away because of the last article in Dragon 359 I understand, but I was hoping I could pick your brain for suggestions on special powers/abilities for those two demon lords at higher CR, and to get your take on what Obox-Ob would be. Your article on Demogorgon implied that the only Demon Lord Demo really feared was Obox-Ob, but I don't know if that means he would be on the same level as Demo, or perhaps closer to Grazzt and Orcus.

Thanks in advance for the help.

There doing Demogorgon next? My assumption was that they were sticking to the "lesser" Demon Princes that never got too much coverage.

But oh darn, oh well, The Prince of Demon's is my favorite anything out of the entirity of all D&D.

We know the last issue of Dragon will have a Demonicon article, is that the one with the Silibent Beast? Or is it coming down the pipe before that?

Demogorgon will be in Dragon 357, to coincide with the STAP in Dungeon. As for the final prince covered in Dragon 359, it is anyone's guess, but we all know Mr. Jacobs has a fondness for Obox-Ob because of his place as the primary evil deity in his homebrew campaign. So if I had to put my money on one demon prince for the final issue, it would be Obox-Ob.

The biggest things I want to know, are the setting and pantheon details. A very close second in that respect for me is any info on expanded spell lists from what is in the OGL. Obviously we can use Spell Compendium and the like for our home games, but it would be cool if there were new spells added by Paizo to give their NPC's and like a less "generic" feel. One of the things I have loved best about the AP's is how you guys make liberal use of classes, spells, prc's, etc. that aren't just in the PHB and DMG. So I really would like to be reassured that you guys have a plan to create some new base classes and PRC's to fill the void left by all the non OGL material that you have lost access to. I would even commit to buying sourcebooks from you guys if it will be supported in your Pathfinder AP's going forward. I will enjoy sourcebooks that have crunch and fluff that actually appears in the adventures I am running than I will books that have cool stuff but never see the light of day in an adventure.

Just my 2 cents. I fully beleive you guys are going to have an amazing product and I intend to subscribe, but I do have some concerns about what will happen on the creative side of things with such a smaller pool of resources to build from, and the fear that Pathfinder might lose some of it's old school "D&Dness" compared to the earlier AP's in Dungeon. You guys have the best designers in the industry, so I know you will have some great stuff, but I would love to hear something about the sorts of things that are in the works on the "improving our source material" side of things.

I thinnk we are all going to be blown away with just how awesome the content in these last couple of magazines is. IMHO Dragon and Dungeon were both in a "golden age" the last several months as the AP's were wildly successful and the campaign articles, demonomicon, and class acts articles provided useful content virtually every month. I am very sad to see Dragon and Dungeon go, but I will end up subscribing to Pathfinder, because I know that the content will be great based on what we have seen with the magazines. That isn't something I can say about any other third party vender. Paizo may not have the license to make "official" D&D content anymore, but they still will make the best 3.5 OGL related content in the industry. I would even go so far as to say it will be better than 75% of the content produced by Wizards going forward.

On a side note, assuming that Paizo is going to mail it in on the last issues just because they lost their licens is both rude and insulting. This company has spectacular customer service and cares about the game as much if not more than anyone at Wizard's does. I will look forward to each and every remaining issue, and look forward to the first issues of Pathfinder.

I have a couple of questions that pertain to Pathfinder Subscriptions. My subscriptions to Dragon and Dungeon run till September, so I don't have to worry about having to transition left-over "credit". That said, I really want to subscribe to Pathfinder because I think Paizo publishes the best D&D content anywhere. So my question is this...

Assuming I am reading things right, you can only subscribe to Pathfinder on a month by month basis, is that correct? I would like to pay for my subscription a year at a time. So is it possible when subscribing to Pathfinder to go ahead and pay for 12 issues up front, or will it have to be month by month? I saw that the subscription price is 30% less than buying them individually, and I think that is awesome. Also, everything I have read says this product will be based in Paizo's own campaign setting. Is there a Campaign setting Sourcebook for this setting, or is it being developed as we go? If there is a sourcebook, where can I order it?

Finally, one last question. Once D&D moves to 4th edition, which it is bound to do in the next couple of years, what will that mean for Pathfinder? If 4ed doesn't include an OGL, will Pathfiner continue under SRD rules, or move in a different direction?

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions!!!

Hey everyone,

Right now the group I DM the STAP for is almost finished with the Lightless Depths. There are 3 people in the party... A 13th level Human Druid, a Rogue 1/Warmage 7/Spellwarp Sniper 5, and a Hellbred Crusader 13 (from Tome of Battle). They are higher level than they should be in terms of the adventures level, but there are fewer of them. The problem I have is they are cake walking through Tides of Dread. They are already on level 1 of the Ziggaurat of Holashner and will likely face Ulioth and the Bilewretch this Saturday. Once they are finished I expect them to make a bee line to the Taboo Plateau. There in lies my problem.

The party has been massively effective at defeating every encounter they have faced for a long time now. In some ways Golismorga has been a big disappointment for them after the way I built it up. But that doesn't even compare to Taboo plateau. I have had Xerkamat periodically teleport in to spy on them as they have been going and have even periodically let the party get a glimpse of the creature without being able to try to engage it. After all the build up I don't want the Taboo plateua and Khala specifically to be anticlimactic. So, my question is what suggestions do you my fellow DM's have for how to better run the City of Broken Idols so that it isn't disappointing? I expect the party to hit 14th level at the end of Holashner's Ziggaurat, so they will be about 1 level higher than is called for by the adventure. Still, the combination of the Warmage's ridiculous damage dealing capacity coupled with the Crusaders insane AC and damage output with his martial maneuvers have made quick work of any creature I have had them face. I want Khala to be a memorable encounter without being an instant TPK, and I am having a hard time finding challenges that are somewhere between too easy and instant TPK for awhile now.

Obviously I can have Khala already have summoned a Retriever before they encounter him and I can have it such that he is aware they are coming, but on the surface it still looks to me like he won't be much challenge. The Crusader has a maneuver or feat that lets him hit with a shield bash as an immediate action in response to an attack, and if he hits (which he almost always does), the attack of his opponent fails automatically. His A.C. is in the low to mid 30's against CE creatures, so that makes him only about 50% likley to be hit by Khala's melee attacks, though he could just keep spitting Acid as a ranged touch every round till he has lost some levels.

Anyway, what would all of you suggest. How can I make the Plateua memorable without just instantly killing the entire party?

I personally suspect the hold up is all the hardcover "super adventures" that Wizard's is publishing themselves of late. There is the entire Expidition to "__________" series as well as the smaller modules they sell for their miniatures line like Vault of the Drow and the like. I also suspect that the suits at Wizard's assume that a AoW hardcover would cut into the sales of these adventures and thus they are not green lighting it. Perhaps when the "adventure" portion of the publishing schedule dies down some we will see the AoW hardcover approved.

James Jacobs wrote:

Kerzit always struck me as being somehow related to Demogorgon; he certainly bears a LOT of resemblances to the Prince of Demons. A Demonomicon of Demogorgon would probably be a good place to explore that more... hmmm....

A DEMONOMICON OF DEMOGORGON!!!!! Ahem. Please allow me to be the first to clamor for just such an entry into the series. [Puuhhh-leeezzz!]

It has already been anounced that the Demonomicon entry in Dragon 357 will be of Demogorgon to coincide with the STAP in Dungeon. Personally, I have been waiting for this Demonomicon entry more than any other.

Just as an update for everyone....

The police have the vehicle the men were driving and are presently combing through it for evidence. Warrants have been issued for the arrest of two of the men involved. Apparently, the combination of the pawn shop surveillance footage, coupled with the apprehension of the vehicle have given the police enough to issue warrants for two of the men involved. I have hope that they are making progress and will find them. My brothers viewing is today and tomorrow, and he will be cremated tomorrow afternoon. Thank you all again for your kind thoughts and prayers in this difficult time.

On a happier note, I found out my brother had proposed to his girlfriend and she had said yes. They had planned to get married later this year. He hadn't told most of our family yet, but both she and my sister confirmed that he had done so. This makes me happy as it means he had found someone he felt he could spend his life with and she felt the same. I have spoken with several friends and they have all said he was happier the last several months than he had ever been. The medical examiners report implied that he likely died nearly instantly, and thus didn't suffer at all. I thank God for that.

For our family, the healing process will start in the next two days as his body is layed to rest and we all move towards making peace with it. I ask for your continued prayers that the murderers are brought to justice. It can't bring him back, but it can give our family closure and my brother the peace of having his killers caught and prevented from killing again.

Brent

I have lived my life by the premise that it is wrong to hate anyone. But for the first time that I can remember, I truely hate another human being. The latest news report indicates that there were at least 4 men involved. Three in the store, and a driver besides. They were smart enough to have removed their license plate from their vehicle, and the video of them leaving the store is chilling in it's non-chalance. I hope all 4 of them get everything coming to them and then some. I keep praying for God to give me the strength to forgive them, but I don't know that I will ever find it.

Regardless, I want to thank everyone for your outpouring of love. It's strange how members of a board like this can become extended family. Thank you all for everything. This is a really hard time, but I can take solice in the fact that my brother was happy. He walked a much darker road in his life than I have, but he had finally turned things around and found his way into the light. He enjoyed his job and had a girlfriend that loved him. He was active and planning a trip to Vegas with my sister and brother-in-law. He had just bought his first car. All of that tells me he had found a peaceful balance in his life. I find that thought very comforting. All men die, but not everyone truely lives. I can say that my brother truely lived.

RIP Brother. I love you and miss you more than I can ever express. I pray you find happiness and peace in the next life. God knows you earned it.

Thank you all again,

Brent

He's gone. He was pronounced dead a short while ago. If you have family, tonight give them an extra hug and tell them you love them. Make sure you don't harbor any negative feelings for your family inside of you, because you never know when you wave goodbye to them one day if it will be the last time. Thank you all for your prayers. I'm sure that at the very least they brought my brother some peace at the end. I have one last prayer to ask of you, please pray that my brother's murderer is brought to justice.

Thank you all,

Brent

He will be in my prayers, and I will spread the word around. Whereabouts in Oklahoma? I'm in OKC and hadn't heard about it, but I don't watch the news that much.

He's in Tulsa Greg. Here is a link to a local news station report about the incident. http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0407/412069.html

As of the last phone call I recieved, he was given less than an hour to live. The surgeons have done all they can, and he has no brain activity. I haven't been able to get either of my parents or any of my siblings on the phone in a while, so he is probably gone. He and I hadn't spoken in several years because our lives took us in very different directions. I saw him at Christmas at the very Pawn Shop where he was shot. We chatted about nothing for 10 minutes and I hugged him and that was it. I never got to tell him I loved him one last time. There was a lot of negative things between us, and I always thought I would make peace with him one day. Now I won't have a chance in this life.

This hurts more inside than anything I have ever experienced. He had his entire life in front of him. I hope that God grants the men who did this mercy in the afterlife, but I hope the laws of man grant them no mercy at all now.

Thank you all for your prayers. I'm gonna miss him.

Brent

Hi everyone,

I know this isn't entirely appropriate here, but my brother was shot in the chest today during a robbery where he works. A couple of men came in and asked to see some jewelry, and when he took it out of the case, they shot him in the chest, grabbed the jewelry and ran. The bullet went through his aorta, and out his back. His odds of survival are no better than 3-5%. He is presently in critical condition as they try to save his life.

I am in Kansas, and he is in Oklahoma so the only thing I can do to stay sane right now is ask for prayers from everyone I know. His name is Cody and he is 20 years old. Please pray for him and our entire family right now.

Thank you all,

Brent

Brent wrote:

For one thing no rules in core on how to do this. I'm wondering about these silence arrows as well. Where did they come from? I don't recall silenced arrow as a standard magic item.

The "silence" arrows are arrows of spell storing with the silence spell cast into them, the cost of purchasing such arrows is outlined in the DMG. Poison is also covered there.

OK I see this now - the only weak point would be the DC 12 Will Save. 18th level wizard has +11 to Will saves. So he blows the roll on a natural 1 and only a natural 1 unless he has a wisdom penalty to his Will Save (possible in such a fight with point buy - somethings got to be dump the dump stat if one wants higher other stats).

How long it takes to apply a poison does not seem to be covered in the DMG but applying an oil is a standard action and I'd assume it would take the same amount of tume to apply a poison. That might be too long, though that Purple Worm Poison has possabilities. It does 1d6 inititial strength damage and a DC of 24. Even an 18th level wizard might blow a DC 24 Fort save. Two arrows with this stuff on it could incapacitate the wizard.

One possibility to overcome the will save problem is to target the arrow at an object near the Wizard that will be certain to fail it's saving throw, like a tree. It is unorthodox, but might by you time while the Wizard moves out of the silence area. I think the greater slaying arrows is smart, but he needs to get at least a couple for every race in the PHB to cover his bases.

This Saturday, I am running our second session of the lightless depths for my group playing the Savage Tide. The party composition has changed a lot over the games and we have had 2 players come and go, but I still have 3 folks. Deuroo, a Human Druid 13, Khelbun a Hellbred Crusader 13, and Shasta a Human Rogue 1/Warmage 7/Spellwarp Sniper 5. Last session they just finished fighting the Elder Black Pudding, and are about to encounter the Cerullian Curtain.

On Sunday, I am playing in my friend Charles Campaign. I am playing a Human Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 2 who is playing with the Focused Specialist Variant from Complete Mage, the Rapid Summoner Variant from Unearthed Arcana, and the Enhanced Summoning Variant from Unearthed Arcana. It is a homebrew campaign and we just finished escorting a village of refugees to the nearest city, and been informed that the refugees are under a curse we have to lift before the refugees will be allowed in the city and the threat of winter is looming.

Anyway, should be a fun D&D weekend.

The difference is that the Summoned Creature is only there for a specific duration, whereas a follower technically is there indefinately. In a campaign, that is not an unclear distinction. Unfortunately, in the one on one battle, a Gated creature will likely be there for the entire battle.

My only concern is if you start limiting what spells the Wizard can cast, then why bother with this test at all? Just say something like "if a Wizard is nerfed by being required to only cast spells from the school of divination, then the fighter will kick his butt!!" I don't see how it proves anything.

So what keeps the Wizard from going Time Stop, Gate, Teleport to safety and let the Solar fix things?

Possibly add up a few more Summon Monster VIII if the Solar seems unable to manage on its own.

Maybe it's just style but it's not how I envision a Wizard vs. Fighter duel. Perhaps the Fighter should take Leadership and field an army then, just because he can? The Cohort might help too.

What "should" the Wizard do? Hurl lightning bolts and fireballs and that's it? How is summoning creatures any less wizardly than Time Stop? It has been pointed out that this is very nearly an impossible battle for the fighter. If the Wizard pulls punches by not casting his best spells, then if the fighter wins it isn't really a win at all because the Wizard wasn't trying his best. Both players have to give it their all or the outcome of the test is invalid.

Hmmm, Contingency is an exception to the 'no pre-buffing' rule then? (which I assumed was in effect?)

If it is, get one yourself with an Anti-Magic Field, that should at least somewhat even things out (as pointed out, the PHB has rules for 3d party spell-casting)

As for spells in a Time Stop, I'd probably go along the lines of Displacement and/or Stoneskin. Stoneskin is negated by Adamantine (bring adamant arrows! that'll render at least one spell he's probably going to use pointless.)
Displacement and Invisibility effects can be disabled by True Seeing; so try to fetch something that grants it as well.

Personally I'd find summoning a bit lame; it's fighter vs. wizard, not summoned Balor vs. fighter. But, if he goes that way, pick up Candles of Invocation and do the same to keep him busy.

I don't think summoning is lame at all. Summon spells are amongst the best and most versatile in a Wizard's or Sorcerers arsenal. There was nothing in the original scenario that said that the Wizard had to limit his spell selection to certain schools. If I were playing the Wizard in this scenario I would have Gate for certain as one of my memorized spells or on a scroll at a minimum. There isn't anything unfair about it, it is just one of the things a Wizard can do with their spells. If the fight gets to that point, the fighter is sure to lose, which is why it is so important to build a strategy that tries to stop the Wizard from casting. The Wiz's first spell cast will be Time Stop guaranteed. After that it just depends on the players personality, but likely Gate and either Iron Body or Stoneskin will be the next two cast during the timestop.

It is an insanely hard scenario. Fighters just aren't made to fight a high level Wizard one on one. Still, that is the scenario the original poster is faced with, so we are all trying to find ways to help him win.

Fatespinner wrote:

Arctaris wrote:

Why not just have the poison applied to the arrows ahead of time?

Or fill the bottom of the quiver with it so it coats ALL the arrows?

For one thing no rules in core on how to do this. I'm wondering about these silence arrows as well. Where did they come from? I don't recall silenced arrow as a standard magic item.

The "silence" arrows are arrows of spell storing with the silence spell cast into them, the cost of purchasing such arrows is outlined in the DMG. Poison is also covered there.