Bomanz's page

Thanks for all the advice and information.

My goal was to essentially build an unarmored Onna Bugeisha samurai, with some unarmed strike capability.

I like the Warrior Poet Archetype because of the focus on Katana and Naginata as main weapons, allowing for DEX based build.

I was going to take Order of the Cockatrice, because I tend to play face characters, I like the CHA synergy and demoralize mechanics, I like the order adding to damage, and the bonus to hit when you attack a demoralized foe.

Using a 20 point buy, with Half-Elf as race, 16 DEX and 16 CHA are all that's available, with a +2 static to throw into something else.

The problem I'm coming up against is that bonuses to AC are few and far between. I don't really have the luxury of stacking WIS too, and I didn't want to really do more than dip Monk anyhow.

The main focus on this would be to be a Samurai.

Likewise, the party makeup will be a Barbarian, an archery focused Ranger, a Rogue of some sort, A sorcerer, and a Cleric.

Not sure I would need to be a typical "tank" build samurai, with high AC, high HP, and resolve to stand in the front line taking blow after blow. Further, I think the Barb will outdamage this build, and draw the most "agro" from the DM/NPCs.

I like this flowing/unarmored build, but I do worry about the effectiveness in combat and being overshadowed in almost every way.

I think I love you Draxar.

Thank you for being awesome!

I think one of my favorite characters ever was a Cleric of Pharasma.

This was a neutral Cleric, to a Neutral goddess, and I played that up quite a bit.

I used the feat: Versatile Channeler so that I could choose which version of channel to use.

I actually chose positive, but then could channel negative if needed at a -2 CL.

With that in mind, I then went ahead and chose a PRC that I know most people scoff at, but honestly I loved the flavor and thematically it worked GREAT. I went with Envoy of Balance.

Badass. Suddenly at LVL 10, the character can channel positive AND negative at the same time. Bam.

OF course, a phylactery to boost channel, channel feats to increase DCs and number of times per day, all that.

PLUS, you can choose to cast inflict or cure spells spontaneously.

Lots of fun.

There are plenty of Neutral gods to pick from.

My last few characters have been, in no particular order:

Halfling Witch (Gravewalker) to lvl 3
Lizardman Barb (hurler)/Oracle (Ancestors) to lvl 16
Gnome Sorcerer (Fey) to lvl 12
Tengu Rogue (Swordmaster/Scout) to lvl 17 Mythic 9
Human Wizard (Sin Mage/Thassalonian Specialist) to Level 3
Oread Summoner (Shaitan Binder) to lvl 3
Gnome Wizard (Illusionist)/Veiled Illusionist PRC) to lvl 13

I play in 2 very regular games, and then sometimes in a 3rd if the chance permits. Sometimes we start APs and decide we don't like them, or to take a break, thus the varying low levels.

For me, it's more about the flavor of the character, and what I'm trying to get it to do mechanically. I tend to play a variety of "traditional" and "out of the box" characters.

I like the spell.

The movement of the sphere is decent, it can jump over things, it can go vertical, lots of movement options.

The wizard can stand still and use his move action to direct the sphere. Then he can use his standard action to cast a different spell.

Reflex saves aren't usually the best save for a cleric or other wizard, so it's a great way to do damage to an enemy spellcaster or healer.

Is it the end all/be all of damage spells?

Nope, but it's useful.

I also like using the spell as a readied action to ram it into an enemy spellcaster, forcing a concentration check.

Biteface the Goblin.

Biteface is an Unchained Barbarian Feral Gnasher / Alchemist Goblin Firebomber and Winged Marauder.

You could multiclass a 3rd in there, Brawler, say, or something if you wanted.

The idea see, is that Biteface likes to bite people on the face.

But, being a Goblin, he's too short to bite big people on the face.

Thus, he tamed a Dire Bat (named Batty) and learned how to make explodey fire bombs that he could drop while Batty got him into position.

Once in position, Biteface leapt from Batty and fell through the air to land on the persons face and then bite them.

On the face.

With feats like Opening Volley, and then maxing your grapple (Raging Barbarian Grapple even as a Gobbo is pretty chill) and you can be kind of surprising at how much damage you can do this way.

Factor in mutagens and it's even more silly.

I think I had him down at lvl 6 or so, and he was close to +20 on his CMB to remain grappled while doing auto damage by...

Biting you in the face.

He would literally chew people to death.

Biteface and Batty.

Pretty weird.

Look man.

I don't want to be that guy, but I'm about to.

I disagree with the vast majority of posts that tell other players that they are doing bad wrong fun. I really, really do.

So please understand me that while this sort of silliness might be good for your game, and if your group has fun with it, then please go ahead and do it all day long.

But I don't get it.

I just don't understand.

Who looks at a great sword, or a great axe, or a bastard sword, or whatever enormous piece of weaponry you are wanting to use, and says to themselves "Now then, I wish to use this one handed....because......"

and that's where I draw the line. I cannot fathom that anyone would have an answer for what lies beyond the "because" part.

And yes, I know, anime.

Which is also something I don't get.

I don't mind you young whippersnappers walking on my yard. Too much.

But dagnabbit, get off my lawn!

I hate to be the BADWRONGFUN guy, but really??

Make a few linguistics rolls. Have some funny misinterpretations. Next level, put a skill point in it, now you speak it, maybe with a funny accent or they can peg you as a non-native speaker.

Otherwise, just go game.

Punishing people for having the skill and trying to be really REAL about language while having flying dragons and damage resistance to swords and axes and fireballs and stuff is only making it harder for some people.

Punishing the spell casters by FORCING them to have to save a spell slot or two on Comprehend Languages or whatever is garbage too.

We are playing Pathfinder ffs, not "how can I make it harder for epic guys who slay dragons to have fits trying to talk to the people that need the dragon slayed".

Now, get off my lawn.

I mirror the Skald suggestion, they are just so much better than a standard Bard and frankly, I'm a Bard enthusiast.

Look, I'm all for having a good time and I try hard to not tell someone they are doing things in a "badwrongfun" sort of way...

BUT...

If you take the mauler chicken and don't name your character "The Colonel" I will forever disown you on these forums.

My group, which is between 5-9 particular players who alternate between different games, but who usually play 2 in a given week and between 4-6 in a particular month, had used 20 point buys to start.

We moved to a 25 point buy, and played a few APs, and then we added Mythic to the 25 point buy.

After that last time, and we all sat around saying "this was stupid" and "we killed a God in 2 rounds" and "nobody died more than 1 round before the cleric brought them back" and we were quiet for a bit.

Then we agreed to a 15 point buy "to see what it was like".

We are playing Jade Regent, and loving it. The characters are a lot more flavorful and well thought out. Our party is a lot more balanced, and we rely far more on party dynamics and tactics than just soloblasting/whacking/chopping thru encounters. Before, it was often a matter of initiative...the higher you got, the more likely you were to have something fun to do.

Now? Now it's just good old fashioned "hope we can handle this" and buff n' stuff. Often the difference in encounters isn't apparent until round 4 or 5, once the bard song kicks in, the wizards stone skin has been cut through while the cleric and the druid or the paladin has passed out bless and haste and bulls strength or divine favor.

I'm also playing a barbarian/oracle in that one. Combat has started to be a bit more assured for a party victory now that we all hit 12th lvl, but from lvls 1-8, we had a lot of very hairy situations.

MY CHARACTER ALMOST DIED. That hasn't happened in nearly a decade.

Also, the GM had a lot less prep and could often throw badguys at us right out of the book again.

Now. We have started an alternate week group with some of the same characters. We are playing Hell's Vengeance.

We have moved back to a 20 point buy. There are more MAD characters, some more esoteric choices.

I like the 15 point buy, very much. I do not like the 25 point buy. That kind of game is "too easy, too cheesy".

But, that's my opinion.

Your goal is to have fun.

"...the worst part is I have to scratch my arse and pick my nose with the same hand, so now timing is critical."

If its left arm cut off "no, I'm all right now".
If its right arm cut off "It's all that's left"

"...tis only a flesh wound"

"I used to be a bard but I played the piano, so now I'm a fighter."

"it's a real b##*! to do archery, but I can still jam a long sword up your keister."

After a while you’ve played all the standard the core rulebook. You’ve done hundreds of dwarves, elves, gnomes, and halflings and you want to try something new. Or maybe as a GM you want to open up some additional options for your players. But just throwing a gnoll into a game doesn’t always work, if your GM even allows it. So here are some things you should think about when trying to use oddball races .

As a GM have you allowed something beyond Pathfinder’s core races? As a player have you gotten a chance to play something out of the ordinary?

I am currently playing a Lizardman Barbarian/Oracle in the Jade Regent campaign.

I have styled him as a mystic warrior, who doesn't worship a set pantheon, but instead, worships his ancestors and their spirits.

For example, his Oracle mystery is "Ancestors" (duh), and he is dual cursed. Of course his main curse is Lame, but he also has Haunted as his backup.

For Barbarian Rage Powers, I have taken the Spirit powers, so that when he stands next to someone the spirits will auto attack for him as well.

I picture him as a sort of Polynesian flavor, mixed with heavy doses of Aztec/Toltec influence.

I only gave him light basic armor, primitive weapons, and he is a cannibal. Not just like, eating people because he is hungry, but if they fought well against him he will eat certain body parts of his foes. He has eaten the tongues of sorcerers, the eyes of wizards, the hands of clerics, the heart of warriors, and more than a few brains of people who out tactic'd him.

I describe the Haunted curse as a few memorable spirits of foes that he was contemptuous of, and the Spirits that attack for him those of his ancestors who give negative energy to smite his foes.

He has an Auspicious Mark for luck bonuses during combat as he calls out to his ancestors for guidance.

He can curse with Misfortune to cause his enemies to stumble at inopportune times.

Very fun, very flavorful.

He is currently lvl 7 Barbarian, lvl 5 Oracle. His progression went:

Barb 1, Oracle 2, Barb 3-8, Oracle 9-11.

Played a Tengu Rogue, Swordmaster archetype, Mythic in Wrath of the Righteous.

Our party had no "tank".

I one shotted demon lords.

Granted, the really really cheese puff stuff rolled right out of Mythic...

BUT....

The core of the build was still a very, very solid build.

Rogues rock.

This emphasis on having to kill everything in one hit is stupid.

Also, I'm playing a freed Chelaxian slave Lizardman in Jade Regent right now, and I have several weapons like that for flavor.

Terbutje
Tepotztipili
Hunga Munga
and then various spears.

Flavor baby. Its all about role playing.

Fate's Favored trait add into that?

Halfling race with all the luck inspired things that brings?

This is not the erotic kind of post I thought it would be.

I go by rule of cool. Swami-esque mage/wizard riding around on a pillow laden Floating Disk, all lounging around on it....badass. You are winning the game.

Until someone dispells it whilst floating above a mudpuddle.

In Society play, things are going to be a bit different. Even so, I'd let them do that simply because its still cool.

What's the point of phenomenal cosmic power if you can't be as quirky cool and ridiculous doing it?

I seen this girl at the mall, she had magic pants.

After she walked by, I felt dazed for a good 4 rounds.

Wait, how do kobolds not make sense as inquisitors? Kobolds make amazing inquisitors, flavor-wise. They're self-righteous, enjoy having positions of authority over larger people, paranoid, smooth-talking...I mean, if Earth was Oerth, we'd call it the flippin' Reptilian Inquisition.

Nobody expects the Reptilian Inquistion! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear! Fear and surprise! Our TWO main weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency!

So somehow when I hit reply, I missed that there were 250+ posts that said things similar to what I said.

I did not mean to come off as a jerk, if I did.

It feels like a lot of theorycraft in here. I still don't see any reason to prepare it past level 1, tbh, and really not even then.

Level 1: Color Spray and/or Sleep wins the game. Why bother with MM at all?
Level 2: The above remains true, and Burning Hands suddenly becomes better DPS.
Level 3: Scorching Ray becomes available, and both it and Burning Hands do superior DPS.
Level 4: Probably the last level that Color Spray or Sleep are auto-win (they're still good though), and Scorching Ray/Burning Hands is still doing better DPS.
Level 5: Scorching Ray stops being obviously better for a bit here, but it's technically still superior and Burning Hands is still in the lead.
Level 6: Ditto level 5.
Level 7: Magic Missile finally overtakes Burning Hands again! Wait, no it doesn't: 5d6 > 4d4+4. Also, now you get your second ray for Scorching Ray, and from here on out, it's always better single-target DPS. (edit - Wrong dps for BH. Technically MM wins at this level, but still loses to Scorching Ray.)
Level 8+: Are you really using 1st level slots for offense anymore? Honestly?

(A note on Shocking Grasp: The only class I ever see bother with this spell is Magi who abuse metamagic tricks/traits in order to make it better than 5d6. Otherwise, I just don't see people using it, so I didn't bother to include it.)

1. I guess you never fight undead. Color spray those 4 zombies in there and let me know how that works out for you. Same with sleep.

Oh, and Sleep...1 round to cast. How's that standing there doing nothing and praying not to get hit and disrupted working out for you? Oh, and them zombies I mentioned before? ROFL good luck with that.

Color Spray/Burning Hands....awkward cones. Easy to hit your own party in some circumstance. "Sorry bob, but I knocked out some goblins for ya too!" 15' range max. So, either run up INTO combat and then cast (provokes AoO, d'oh!) or just stand in combat to begin with and provoke (d'oh!). Make it easy for the bad guys to get into combat with you. What a great set of spells! Sleep, only works on a 10 foot area too. More than 4 monsters might be a challenge to get that to work on.

Hardly "winning the game".

2. Ditto lvl 1.

3. Scorching Ray requires a ranged touch attack. Into combat/melee most times. Jeez, I hope your wizard took point blank shot and precise shot....most wizards do, don't they? Surely your party meat shield wont be in the way blocking line of sight or giving partial cover to the bad guys, right....meat shield NEVER run into combat. How much DPS is missing your hit b/c you rolled low? Shame you didn't have something that auto hit or something.

4. Ditto lvl 3.

5. Ditto lvl 4, which dittos lvl 3.

6. Ditto lvl 5, which dittos lvl 4, which is of course, dittoing the crap out of lvl 3.

7. I notice I haven't said anything about grease. I find it's overall use to be pretty weak. I've seen exactly 2 times in the last 2 years of gaming where it has been uber effective. I'm not saying its garbage, but if I am in a large 30'x 30' room, one 10' square area isn't THAT big of a hindrance. Oh, and Ditto lvl 6, which dittos lvl 5, which dittos lvl......I think you know where I'm going with this

8. Are you really using lvl 1 slots for offense? only if you really need to, which is where the whole utility of the spell comes into play. Are there better options? Sometimes, yeah, sure. Are there limitations to its usefullness past a certain point? Yep.

I guess basically I would tell you that Magic Missile isn't the end all be all of spells.

But then, neither are the examples you gave, for the reasons listed above.

Remind me again how that Silent Image works when fighting undead, btw?

I get 1 stat dump. That can make for an exciting fun to play guy that has a quirk or such.

2 stat dumps says to me "This player is a serious optimizer. He doesn't expect to do much out of combat, and totally expects to 'win' every combat he gets into. This player will be the guy surfing the mobile web on his phone during social encounters, during investigation and other non-combat play."

3 stat dumps tells me that someone likes cheese just a bit too much. Congratulations Sir Chedder, you have broken the game and made it less fun for everyone involved.

I hope you enjoy this Orc and prove me wrong. I hope your party likes having you there the campaign/AP/whatever goes swimmingly and everyone has a great time.

Please don't come to my table with that build.

I prefer to sleep with hot elf chicks with daddy issues, but there don't seem to be many rules for that, either.

Happily dotted.

You cannot convince some people that Monks are fine. They have it in their head (and its obvious in the comparisons to fighters/barbarians/rangers) that being a Monk is less "powerful" or less "optimized" than what they deem to be a comparable class.

No amount of "but in this game I saw" will ever convince them.

No amount of "why are you soloing a CR20 critter and why are you doing it in an open, featureless plain with no cover or small enclosed areas" will ever convince them.

Just look at every OTHER monk thread and you will see the same few people, who regardless of build or evidence, continually decry how much suckier a monk is than a fighter.

Give it up already. The build doesn't matter. They cannot be convinced that the Monk doesn't need a complete rebuild to their specifications. Countless other people who have played and enjoyed the class have opinions that do not matter to these people.

So the Monk can't solo a lvl 20 Demon or Devil or whatever in the same short time that a BSF or CAGM Barbarian can.

Who give a s*** when people still enjoy playing them.

If you don't like a Monk and want to build a "better" character that CAN solo the Baelor in 2 rounds then do that instead.

This endless back and forth and unbudging/unwavering hardon for Monk suckitude is old, quick.

And when you ultimately distill the argument against why Monks "suck" so bad, it all comes down to "because you need system mastery to build one effectively" or some other garbage opinion.

As if a poorly built, unoptimized Wizard with a lousy spell book and poorly built spell book stands a chance. As if a fighter with badly chosen feat trees and unoptimized gear is any different.

Now....GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

Needlessly Nerf-batting the things that need not be Nerf-batted.

That's alliteration folks.

I used to hate prewritten adventures and refused to play or run them.

I am running Curse of the Crimson Throne and I love it.
I am playing in Rise of the Runelords, and I love it.

I think PFS and other living games are ruining the hobby. I dont like a bajillion different players and bringing the hobby to the masses...its degrading the quality role player pool until its naught but a puddle. I yearn for the days of closeted gamers huddled over thac0 charts and actually being required to have a modicum of intelligence to "get" the game. Most new players I find to be stupid and vapid.

Get off my lawn!!

Oh, and how about this...if you can't add +12 bab and +3 weapon enhancement and +4 bard performance and +2 flank and +2 charge and +1 bless and +1 haste and get the right number in about .3 seconds get off my table.

That aside, this was supposed to be a confession that will get me shunned....so here goes:

I love cheese. I liked pun-pun. I like breaking the game. I like having that character that kills everything while other players weep out of boredom. I am a cheese monger, and my cheddar is better.

Get off my table!

I played a bard with reach and a long spear, from 1-15th level.

I augmented the character by being multiclassed with rogue, for the "Gang Up" feat and SA damage, but in and of itself the design was fine without that.

In essence, standing in the second line, or from an off side to attack something.

I only had a starting strength of 14, but 1d8+2 was solid for 1-4th level fighting.

Learn to love the 5 foot step. With that, you could 5 foot step, then hit something that started your round 15' away from you.

I agree about Lunge, its a very good addition to this kind of character...now with Lunge you are able to hit things that start the round 20 feet away from you. Plus you get more AoO when or if they decide to focus on you.

So, with Power Attack, 1d8+2 turns into 1d8+3, Arcane Strike for another +, Bard Performance for another +2, suddenly you aren't just annoying them, you can really start to do some fun stuff.

STR belt, or an Ioun Stone...it starts to be more than just an annoyance, a lot of times I was running around to the enemies the main Melee types had almost dead anyhow and finishing them off.

Enchanted Long Spear, and it got even sillier.

Factor in your longer reach and ability to flank from more unusual positions, and your +to hit is still respectable.

Generally it was [+1 (weapon enhancement) +2 (bard perform) +2 (flank) +1 (cleric buff) +3 (bab) +2 (ability)] for a +11 to hit overall. If I could, I'd sometimes charge to make that a +13...factor the -2 for Power Attacking and back down to a +11, or +9 to hit if not charging. All of that at 5th level.

Damage on the above was a solid [d8 + 1 (weapon enhancement) +2 (ability score) +6 (power attack) +2 (arcane strike) +2 (bard perform)] for a grand total of D8 + 13, nothing to sneeze at for a 5th lvl guy.

Enlarge person for even more fun.

This also doesn't factor in the AoO that you get, so its even more.

Watch your party Melee get all weird when you outdamage him suddenly. Its rather amusing.

Semantics.

Read the Monk hate threads.

All the continual whargbargle and theory clearly shows that Monks can't do anything past a certain level.

Someone in this thread indicated the "sweet spot" is lvl 6ish.

Monk may not be "hitting" something for damage, but if the BBEG suddenly takes a -4 to his AC, and all your party members (including the Monk) who are at 3/4 BAB (like the forlorn lowly horrible unplayable Rogue, say) now get the joy of an additional +4 to hit, and maybe more if suddenly the Monk acrobatic'ed his way to flank (or just fast moved, because you know, they can) and suddenly everyone enjoys a +10 swing in the to hit and now the BBEG is toast.

Or maybe, they really do suck, because its all over the message boards.

Bomanz wrote:

LOL but again, we ALL know that real world examples and experiences don't mean a hill of those warm stinky butt tootsie rolls my dog leaves on the carpet.

Monks and Rogues suck.

Except when they don't.

Could you answer the question posed to you here?

Dabbler wrote:

Does only positive real-world experience count, then? We say the monk is a weak class, we have played it and found it a weak class, and we can crunch the numbers to prove it. You say the monk is not a weak class, that you have experience of it not being a weak class in game, so please deliver the numbers that prove it - I'd LOVE to find a way to make monks that didn't suck badly in most boss encounters over 10th level (based on my experience of playing a monk in CotCT among others).

I'll post builds tomorrow or tuesday. I need to contact the players and get their sheets.

Sooo....your suggestion is to alter the AP so the Monk sucks enough to justify this thread??

The fact is, against a humanoid AP or encounters, CMB monks (even vanilla, like this guy) are pretty badass.

Trogdar wise. Trogdar right. Trogdar good.

"Monks are still the suxxors/borked/terrible" thread jack in 3........2........

I'm confused...is it Rogues that suck now? Or is it still Monks?

O woe, why tis surely blaster sorcerers too.

I misread a PFS scenario and didn't prep quite right, so imagine my surprise after the party killed the guardian/protector monster that the McGuffin was actually in the room with it the whole time, just bound and trussed under a small table that had a cloth covering it.

The problem? Said party included a Negative Energy spamming channel cleric, who pumped out over 40d6 Negative Energy throughout the fight, radiating from him and filling the room, excluding the party members but sadly NOT the McGuffin guy.

Yeah, they killed the rescue-ee.

I must be the only one who has ever seen the fighter of the party kill most everything in the encounter, while the Wizard and Cleric provided support.

Guy with pointy things smacking them into the bad guys fixes encounters far better than anything else in pretty much EVERY game I have been a part of.

Countdown to "but but but personal experience doesnt matter in the face of such overwhelming theory!" argument in 3.........2.........

I routinely play casters, and as such I have gamed with several, nay, LOTS of fighters with the PA/VS feat lines, and let me tell you I was thrilled. TOO many times to count I have been swarmed or overwhelmed by some foe who slipped past or flanked the main front line, and when I call for help and my BSF or Barb 2h choppy guy rolls up on the offender and hits them once with a huge enormous swing and cleaves them in twain thus freeing me up to actually cast, I kinda am glad he has VS.

Altho to be fair, one too may times we have had a giggle fit over someone misunderstanding "IVS" for "IBS" and we, in our 40 year old juvenile manner giggle because he might have diarrhea.

So I guess it balances out.

Wouldn't you rather have an AMAZING HORSEinstead of an awesome horse?

They taste just like raisins.

So, the last half of 2012 seemed to be about WHY MONKS SUCK.

December 2012 and most of January seemed to be about WHY PALADIN ALIGNMENT REQUIREMENTS SUCK, and ways to make it not suck.

Early February had 2 or 3 good threads about WHY ROGUES SUCK.

Now, here we are talking about WHY FIGHTERS SUCK.

I wonder what the next "___________ R TEH SUXORZ" thread will be about.

Anyone care to wager upon it?

Don't gimme the "God Wizardz r teh koolest!" garbage.

Fact is, the best way to win a fight against a monster/enemy is to make it dead.

"Battle field control" and all helps

But at the end of the day, hitting it with something that does damage is the way to win.

Fighters do it better more consistently than ANY. OTHER. CLASS.

All day, errday.

My apologies Lamontius....Is this what your wrote "More like "fat folk." am I right or what?" I haven't quite mastered my "textese" yet.

I mastered my textes at an early age, looking at Pent-Elf and the like...

To be successful in low level PFS play, learn the following rules:

Fighting Defensively.

Casting on the Defensive.

Total Defense.

Withdraw.

It is my opinion, and considerable experience in PFS play that the vast VAST VAST majority of the time combats will occur in small confined and cramped areas. Most rooms are typically less than 20'x20', or thereabouts.

Learn about COVER.

Learn to Delay and consequently Ready your actions.

If you can do those things well, and know the rules, and understand how your character fits into the scheme of battle and if he is support or front line, your time will go by much easier.

Learn to aid another. Even if you can't hit the bad guy b/c of too high AC, or low HP on your end, or bad positioning, you can still contribute.

As a player, few things piss me off more than some idiot at the table just standing there not doing ANYTHING.

As a GM, few things piss me off more than some idiot whining that he "couldn't do anything".

PFS is good, fun and enjoyable. With a modicum of rules knowledge, and a character with decent stats and not so specialized that he's a one trick pony, you can be effective.

Even the guy with the 20 stat still can roll a 2 on the encounter and flub his Diplomacy or Bluff or Intimidate roll. Even the uber RageLancePounce Invulnerable 24 STR barbarian likes a flanking buddy, and never ever underestimate the value of a longspear/reach weapon.

Here we are again, only this time its "rogues" instead of "monks".

And lo, many of the same pooh-poohers, issuing the same sort of black and white cut and dry edicts proving rogue suckitude and decrying the unbalanced nature of the differing classes.

I see "dpr analysis" head to head battles full BAB against 3/4 BAB class against engineered and tailored monsters showing how rogues suck.....just like in the "why do monks suck so bad" threads.

I see "your personal experiences dont matter, hard numbers matter, see above DPR comparisons" arguments.....just like in the "why do monks suck so bad" threads.

I see "XYZ classes do it better" arguments just like in the "why do monks suck so bad" threads.

I see a bunch of people talking about a rogue in a 1 on 1 situation, not relying on his party members for buffs, flanks, tactics and other common occurrences that happen in a party....just like in the "why do monks suck so bad" threads.

I even saw someone (Ashiel, I think, who's opinion I respect mostly) even bring up the "just like people who think blaster casters are a good idea" argument....just like in the "why do monks suck so bad" threads.

I think the only good news is, that apparently the last 3 months of monk bashing are at an end, and now its Paladin alignment bashing and rogue DPR bashing.

Monks must be good now.

Blastercasters, beware! For March will soon be upon us, and I see a bevy of "why do blasting wizards suck so much" threads coming up.

Until then, I reckon rogues will just have to be the apex of dpr suckitude and theorycrafting angst.

Funky Badger wrote:

But doesn't all of this come down to: full BAB classes are better at hitting things than 3/4 BAB classes?

I like rogues. They're fun.

This is true but the point is if the Rogue can't hit things, and can't cast, and is barely better than his competition in skills who can hit things and cast. Then why be a Rogue?

For me the point of this whole thing hasn't been I hate Rogues and they're stupid, badwrongfun. It's that would Rogues be more, or less fun if they could hit things and do what they do now?

Oh man, why does EVERYTHING have to be in shades of black and white.

Its not that the rogue CANT hit things, its that it isn't as good as a fighter, and now people are going to whine and cry and complain about how "broken" they are.

I have yet to see the party wherein a full rogue hasn't done a butt-ton of damage when played tactically correct. Between charges, flanks, buffs, flat footed-ness, sometimes hitting a prone guy (thank you monk/fighter buddy for help here) and other tactics, the rogue is a solid hitter and easily one of the best.

Its never just black and white, yet that is all that seems to be thrown about anymore.

Rogues CANT hit.

Monks are broken and unfixable

Paladin's alignment restrictions are BOGUS

Its so old its not even funny anymore.

Best way to stop seeing Paladin threads?

New threads:

"ZOMG WTF IS WRONG WITH MONKS?!?!?!"

"ZOMG WTF IS WRONG WITH ROGUES?!?!?"

"ZOMG WTF IS WRONG WITH BLASTING WIZARDS?!?!?"

"ZOMG MY PLAYERS EIDOLON DID 83 MILLION DAMAGE IN ONE TURN AT LEVEL 3, WTF IS WRONG WITH SUMMONERS?!?!?!?"

Because its been a solid month since I've seen one of those threads.

From having played both, I would suggest this form of comparison instead:

The Magus can enhance his To Hit, Nova (uber damage boosts), and AC all on the fly with a much faster and action economical system. He adjusts better on the fly, deciding on which actions to spend doing what, to when, and how he needs it. Does he need to cast and do Spell Combat, plus enhance his AC with his Arcane Pool? Yes, and he can change it from one combat round to the next with very little difficulty.

On the other hand, the Inquisitor can take time to prep, and enhance his AC, his To Hit, his Damage, add Bane, add a Judgement, etc and do a redonkulous amount of damage per hit and be tough as nails doing it. He can lay down some serious beat stick, heal himself, and keep going far better than the Magus (in my opinion.) What he really lacks though, is the ability to swap out most buffs and boosts quickly and efficiently.

Both tank well, sometimes so well that you don't really NEED a full BAB fighter/tank.

I prefer the Inquisitor.

That opinion is jaded because of being able to cast divine spells without prep. That is just sexy as hell.

Yes. If the Paladin had to kill an infant to save the world, the Paladin would do it.

He would also fall like stone and get the breath knocked out of him when he hits, but he'd also feel like he deserved it. That's basically what a Paladin is, they can make the hard choices, but they'll also feel wretched about it afterwards.

Exactly. If the Paladin couldn't sacrifice himself in place of the infant, then he would save the world by killing the child and destroying everything he ever was or is, and suffering the same fate as the child.

This is NOT martyrdom.

It simply is how he/she should act.

Why do some people insist on penalizing creativity and imagination?