I think I might like fewer boons on a chronicle but more significant effects.
Things I like:
Options to modify my character using non-standard methods. E.g. learning the Orc language for PP.
Unique magic items that I can buy because I have the chronicle.
Limited use bonuses that are broadly applicable. E.g. 3 check boxes with a +1 to any saving throw.
Cheaper access to scenario thematic vanities. E.g. Signs in Senghor.
Discounts on purchasing an item of my choice (that's legal).
Hey, I'm not an organizer!
But... I have to say, it's not just demand, it's also supply (GM and player).
My venue runs 2 tables currently: one low tier and one high tier. It's because we only have enough players and GMs for 2 tables. That's probably a big reason why SFS is virtually non-existent. When PFS2 comes around, which tables are my venues supposed to run?
Anyhow, I'll just end by reiterating that I do not condone this behavior, and people doing this sort of thing would very quickly make it onto my "No Play" list.
Oh, look, my venue just responded and more succinctly.
To try to redirect the conversation away from "I have too little time left with my beloved characters" and back to the issue of the thread topic:
I don't see porting over a character whole cloth or even deconstructing them into a character of the same level as viable.
The issues of conversion, which are real and significant, aside. There's no way to make sure those who can are not playing the character in both PFS1 and PFS2 campaigns (those who have that luxury).
However, we have accumulated special boons (not chronicle boons) through various means, be it GMing or random giveaways or auctions. These things would be nice to transfer in some way.
One option is trade in a race boon for early access to a race that they know is coming down the pipe (or released and not open access in the core rule book).
Another option is to trade them in for 1 XP on one character each.
Another option yet is to trade them in for some other kind of permanent but non-egregious advantage granting benefit (like a Hunting Lodge vanity).
And there must surely be dozens more ideas that I haven't thought of.
Are you asking me, personally?
I had several goals, but I'll just confess the most basic one:
I finally had a few characters I liked enough to consider taking all the way to Eyes of the Ten.
The highest level one is 3rd level. I can play one scenario per month (optimistically, our tables don't always make), one local Con (I just GMed SFS for that one), and GenCon (I'm GMing 6 slots and need 8 hours of sleep).
So at 6 XP, I had 27 more scenarios (of the appropriate tiers) to play to be eligible.
My lodge will convert to PFS2 when PF2 drops.
I also wanted to be able to play SFS as time permitted.
So, if I devote all of my available play time to that one single character in PFS, am lucky enough to have all the right tiers offered on the days that I can play, the tables make each time, don't sweat party composition, scrap my GenCon Catfolk, my auction race boon, forget all the other character concepts I was working on, and don't play any other game system, I can earn maybe 20-22 XP by the time my venue stops offering PFS1. Maybe all the way to 27 XP if I don't GM in GenCon 2019.
The first person to say, "That's totally doable," must play exactly like that: take a character with 6 XP, play only once a month (and play nothing of any gaming system on the side) plus 3 scenarios at GenCon 2018, and then play whatever more is necessary through ticketed games only at GenCon 2019. If you can show me your completed Eyes of the Ten chronicle on the day after GenCon, I'll eat my crow.
EDIT: Oh, I forgot. Don't die more than once before paying off the Debt to the Society boon that I happen to have.
I don't understand the mentality here. Seasons 0-10 will still be playable after 2nd edition releases. Most venues will likely continue to run them well after 2nd edition releases because of the content flow. Season 10 hasn't even started yet. It's not like these characters stop being playable.
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse... in a dark corner all by myself where nobody even knows I exist.
That's because at certain venues, PFS2 will replace PFS1 and those people will have nowhere to play PFS1, so for them, it is dead. It makes perfect sense to not GM in that situation if you're not doing it for the love of your friends. It makes perfect sense to risk your characters (and your party) doing something crazy as if you succeed, you've got a cool story, and if you fail and cause a TPK, well, no big deal to you.
I don't condone that behavior, personally.
However, I easily see the source of that behavior.
No, I do not expect it to nor should the system bend over backwards to accommodate my very real and not corner case at all situation.
However, people who risk nothing trying to be encouraging by shouting "play more" as the solution are inadvertently creating the opposite effect: discouragement.
And worse, people such as yourself shouting that no these people's situation should not even be considered.
I, personally, agree that porting a character over would be problematic.
Unfortunately,this thread has transitioned from that request to a place where some people seem to like to come and say, "STFU and deal," rather than contributing ideas to how there might be a way to make any kind of small concession to those of us who feel sad by our situation.
I don't need more people telling me "STFU and deal." I accept that as the baseline situation.
EDIT: Removed a significantly context changing 'not' that I typoed. And some other less important typos.
. . .this is going to cause someone to realize mid-game that they're at the wrong level.
I'm a fan of the 3 Scenarios to Level system because it accommodates my infrequent play style. As long as that system is maintained, I have no skin in the game on whether Quests should be worth less than 1 Scenario.
GM OfAnything wrote:
We have nearly 70 weeks of play left before second edition. Playing only every other week, that is still enough time to get a character from 0 XP to Seeker level before the switch.
Again... OK, come travel to where I live and baby sit all Saturday twice a month so I can do that. Oh, and work my job, and run my errands, and do the tasks around my house that need done.
I've got to stop reading these threads as all the people with so much free time to play are making me very jealous, and all the people who've had five years to play telling me to just be cool and be happy about starting over are making me feel very uncool.
It's like people don't realize that not everyone lives like them.
If the end of PFS1e does not affect you, then please stop telling me how to feel about its effects on me*.
I know many comments are directed at a generic you, but I'm a member of the generic you.
Pregens are always the solution to playing out of your own personal tier, but it is well understood that most people want to play their own characters that they built rather than pregens.
So the angst is understood.
However, I'll just reiterate that I don't believe the problem was the narrower tiers. It was the way the scenarios were rolled out in SFS.
I mean... even if they were 1-5s, you'd still have the same problem with when the 3-7 was released. Having a wider tier for the first set of scenarios released doesn't help you level faster. Having five 1-7 scenarios when the next tier up is released doesn't help that either. Having more introductory tier scenarios than is necessary for one character to level into the next tier up of scenarios is necessary.
And the next tier up has to be released before everyone out levels the introductory tier, but hopefully they known that.
I dislike the broad tiers (e.g. 1-7) because that makes it harder to balance when random people show up to play. So a 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, and a 6 walk into a Delsine Affair...
Alison Ooms wrote:
If you have that character that you do not want to see go - PLAY IT! By the gods, there is plenty of time to retire one or two. Attend conventions, support your community. Play online. Play that character until it hits seeker, and then let it go.
Would love to. Are you volunteering to drive down here to babysit? To cover my shifts at work on the weekends?
If not, I have approximately 17 PFS scenarios to play, 17 XP to earn.
I get it. You long time players are completely fine with letting go of your long played characters and the things you earned. There are lots of people who can play 3 sessions on Saturday and 1 on Wednesday every week. There is, however, a portion of indeterminate size of the PFS population that is going to lose the chance to seek Seeker.
Telling us to "PLAY IT" is not a constructive solution to our situation.
In the end, we are very likely just going to have to suck it up, toss our GM boons in the trash, and start all over. But telling us that all we have to do is "PLAY IT" is not encouraging, it's disheartening because that is exactly the opportunity we're losing.
That's essentially a home game and not 2nd edition, which was my point. Your example is closer to a dedicated group of people revising all the old scenarios to play in PF2 rules. Yes, people may play PF1e, and I can certainly play PF1e if I find someone to play it with (like PbP). But I'm talking about Con offerings.
Given that OP is a marketing tool--a fun one, but a tool to drive product sales nonetheless--how many years do you honestly believe that there will be PFS1e tables at PaizoCon and GenCon?
...although, apologies, this has nothing to do with keeping PCs (the subject of this thread). The porting of PCs whole cloth? I'm not seeing a reasonable way to do it.
Marc Waschle wrote:
Remember, at almost every Convention there are still people who are playing basic D&D, just like Im sure there will be people in 10 years at Cons still playing Pathfinder Classic!
I will preface my comment by saying that I fully intend to be an early adopter of PF2 (aside: even though that undercuts my voice as expressed in dollars to a corporate entity).
But is anyone playing Living Greyhawk D&D 2nd edition in any manner that matters at conventions?
I could find a group of people online to play home PFS1e, but then it's just PF, not PFS and suffers the same attrition as any other online home campaign.
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
It occurs to me that slotting boons is a bit like playing a prepared caster. You don't usually redesign your entire list of prepared spells, you have default choices and switch out a couple depending on the situation.
That's how I experience it, too. I think the biggest culprits are Social and Starship. For Social, though, the GM is supposed to tell the players if there's an applicable Social boon. If they don't tell you (not because they forgot), that should mean you can skip the vaguely worded "may help in a future scenario" Social boons.
Also, my tiny lodge has players who like prepared casters, so I'm used to the wait while they take 10-15 minute polls on which spells to prepare.
Maybe a hybrid like the SFS really is with their slotless boons but narrower.
We have always had a slotted Faction Champion boon, it just wasn't called that and changing cost more and didn't benefit you as much.
We've kind of already had slotted promotional boons in that you could only get 1 bonus from Shirt or Folio or Bag, though you could use Pin and Retail.
Personal boons have always been slotted (race boon must be first chronicle yadda yadda).
The vast majority of things earned on the chronicle would be slotless boons.
...I think I just talked myself out of slotted boons and back to the current system.
It looks like the ones we could take advantage of at first level are:
Damned (have a fiendish or abyssal bloodline)
I believe the idea was to move the hew and haw from the middle of a scenario while someone rifled through a dozen plus chronicles to see if they wanted to use (or had an applicable) boon to boost a roll or negate a failed save to the beginning.
I like the slot system, but I play the vast majority of my SFS on PbP.
I can see the problem, though.
I'm not sure how I feel about using the SF fluid faction alliance model in PF (if the existing factions were kept). I can see pros and cons--nothing either awe inspiring nor terrible--so I really don't know.
I liked the allegiance they had to form, but at the same time, I have characters that would be better as a mix of two factions.
EDIT: I do like how the faction boons work in SFS, though.
I think the issue with the tight tiers is more a function of how they elected to roll out the adventures.
It takes 6 XP to get to level 3 in PFS/SFS.
Not including the Quest or the AP, there were 5 1-4 scenarios released and then a 3-6. That means you had to play every single scenario and the Quest to be ready for the 6th scenario released. SFS also released 1 scenario per month. This left people hungry.
If you release 2 scenarios per month and get 8-10 out before releasing a 3-6, so there's plenty for people to catch up on without having to play every single scenario to be eligible for the 3-6 tier.
...and nobody would have out leveled the 3-4 subtier in the tier 1-4s that were being produced.
EDIT: I also think they did not factor in alt-itis for SFS's scenario release schedule.
Let me rephrase for clarity...
There surely must exist in all the creative minds some system that would allow for some portion of what we've earned (boons, stars) translates into something in the new system.
I was not saying that Paizo is obligated to create that system. I'm hopeful... wishful?
Moving off of that to a different portion of the comment: nothing carries over to AL because it is 1) a different company and 2) a different campaign world.
PF to SF is 1) the same company but 2) a different campaign world.
PFS1e to PFS2e is 1) the same comapny and 2) the same campaign world.
If they created a hypothetical second campaign setting using PF1 rules, I wouldn't assume any carry over because even though it's 1) the same company, it's 2) a different campaign world.
The AL example is as inaccurate as saying it's the same as trying to carry my MtG cards over to the ACG.
Now, if I have misunderstood the intent of PF2, and the rules are going to be so radically different that race and class don't mean the same things that they did in PF1, then maybe there's not a way to convert the cosmetic modifiers we've earned into the new system. However, I was under the impression that this was supposed to be a revamping of the rules. We'd still have races, classes, skills, feats, roll d20s to hit things, AC is 10 + modifiers, stats would be on the 3-18+ scale, etc.
If I'm off on that, I may change my tune.
I support something in between a scorched earth blank slate and converting PCs.
Blank slate means nothing carries over: PCs, boons, stars (and that should mean your Service Coins and Wayfinders, too, if you're advocating a blank slate), so be sure you know what you're advocating when you say 2e should have a blank slate. I don't advocate that idea.
Converting our characters causes several problems: since 1e continues, you could--if you have enough venues--keep playing that character you "converted" to 2e, letting you double your higher level characters, and the system won't support your exact character, and the material won't be ready for your character's level.
There are ways around some of that (such as a 8th level 1e character breaks down into N% of a 8th level character in 2e, even if they have to sit on their hands until content catches up), but ultimately, I don't see porting characters as workable.
However, there has to be some system where the things we've earned (or won) translates into something in the new system.
I think people with dozens of boons feel that way.
People like me with 1 auction boon and a few precious GM boons who are not going to see them all played before 2e takes over our area would like to see *some* sort of transfer system. Does that mean my GM boon allows me to play the same race in 2e? Not necessarily. Might it grant me some other race early access or unique boon? I would certainly appreciate that and, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I don't see that hurting the campaign.
Now, maybe in places like San Francisco, there's 30 people with 30 GM race boons each. Is transferring/trading-in all those boons going to cause a problem in their lodges? I don't really know. It can't be any worse than the aasimars that exist that I never had a chance to make or earn.
This isn't what they're planning on doing, though. They're not retiring PFS1, in fact they say that they expect it to continue for years, there just won't be new scenarios. We will still be able to report into the official system. I believe we will still be able to earn PFS1 stars.
I'm selfishly hoping Flaxseed will become the place where I can make a run for Seeker... in like 5 years.
GM Hmm wrote:
I believe it is safe to take down now.
EDIT: The mobile website is still a little wonky with navigation, but once you figure out where the drop down icon is, it's fine.
I can confirm that it does happen at small venues (like mine).
Two out of the four weeks that PFS is offered, the venue also offers other systems (not even all organized campaigns). The PFS table that most often fails to fill is the one on the week with the other systems.
We, sadly, just don't have the player base to keep multiple campaigns running. We have no Core. We functionally have no Starfinder.
I really appreciate Pirate Rob's ability to see the situation from the perspective of those of us who just started our PFS journeys.
However, the more I've thought about it since I first posted, the more I'm interested in an answer.
For the purpose of my question, I'm defining a clean slate as nobody gets to carry anything of any sort over.
"What is the purpose of a clean slate?"
"How does it make the campaign better?"
"How does it make the game more accessible?"
When I joined my local lodge, the VC had an aasimar and a tiefling from the period when they were simply allowed. I didn't feel like the game was not accessible to me. I thought, "Cool. How can I get myself something interesting and unique like that?"
Now, maybe I'm not seeing it, but I'm not sure how a new player who picked up PF for the first time with 2e and comes to the table 3 months after publication and finds two of the players with tengu characters because they had unused boons to trade in for them (early access or something) create any barrier to that player joining PFS.
I also don't see how it is different from a new player picking up PF for the first time 2 years after PFS PF2 has been going and walks into a lodge where players have PFS PF2 GM race boons.
I am asking sincerely. I can be convinced if someone can draw the connection between the dots that I may be missing. Until then, I don't see any benefit to the campaign for a clean slate.
EDIT (more thoughts for the sake of the argument):
If someone joins PFS PF2 even 1 year after it has been out, they will encounter people with...
Re-rolls and star bonuses
So why create this artificial period of a clean slate that hasn't existed in PF for the past 8 years and will only be extremely transient? Starfinder already has people with legacy races and GM boon races that other people can't access until that boon rolls around again, and it's only been out 5 months (the legacy races are a better example, as the Convention boon races are intentionally sped up).
EDIT EDIT: To make PFS PF2 more accessible, then allow all races and lock nothing behind a boon. That also accomplishes a clean slate. Nobody carries anything over, but nobody is restricted from a legal option.
Pirate Rob wrote:
Nobody is taking your boons away from you.
No, but if you can't find a GM and a legal table to play at, then my boons are being made worthless.
I earned a boon GMing 8 sessions of GenCon 50. That didn't hurt anyone else's play experience did it?
Unfortunately, I've been taking my own sweet time crafting that character and have been told that it will be null and void unless I commute to some place with a thriving PFS1 scene.
How does the ability for people like me to trade it in for some sort of boon that makes my character a little unique now harm people's play experience in PF2?
The trend I'm seeing is that people who have been playing PFS for a long time and gotten their fill of race boons (or free Aasimars, which are better than any race boon I earned) and high level play are ready for a "clean slate.". Relatively new PFS players would like to see their earned boons carry something over.
What is a "clean slate" anyhow? That is for competative games where players have an advantage over other players based on time invested. How does a "clean slate" apply here?
Not me taking sides. Not me telling anyone to "go piss yourself." The reality is, if you play yourself out of PFS1 content, and you refuse to switch to PFS2, then that is your own fault. Pure and simple. That's the reality of it.
You are taking sides if, you, willing to switch to PFS PF2 say that people playing PFS PF1 shouldn't get replays (expanded or unlimited).
Maybe the people who shelled out tons of money to play PFS PF1 don't want to shell out the same amount of money to replace the books they bought (maybe even within the last year) whether out of lack of funds or out of principle or because the aliens told them not to.
Whatever their reason, you don't get to make a value judgement ("it's their fault") on the people who don't switch to PF2.
For me, if I'm going to stay with PFS and switch to PF2. I'm not going to have anyone to run PFS PF1 scenarios for me around here.
The new system appears to be different enough, that 5-stars shouldn't carry that same weight or authority.
I disagree in that I disagree that stars should carry that much weight in an argument. There are plenty of 5 stars who have learned bad habits from someone else and never got challenged on them. There are plenty of players who have never GMed in PFS and have perfect recall of the rules. So that shouldn't be the reason to argue against stars carrying over.
Stars represent time spent volunteering in the organized campaign.
Craig Bertuglia wrote:
I'm gonna keep playing, so this is not a gripe, but I haven't heard any official discussion as to why stars are not going to just carry over. They exist outside the game mechanics and a lot of my GMs feel this is an unnecessary kick in the pants, which already have a big old kick dent from characters not converting.
Yeah, I don't have much skin in this particular game, but I'm not sure why the stars just don't continue. It's the same campaign, they're just tweaking the rules set.
To me, it makes as much sense as saying stars reset when the Unchained versions of classes came out (hey, everyone had to learn new rules), or the Ultimate Intrigue social combat rules were released (new rules to learn there) or Ultimate Wilderness... if it is ever sanctioned.
It's not like Starfinder. Starfinder is a new game and, more importantly, a new campaign. Everyone started from scratch because GMing PF games didn't give you any more experience GMing in the setting of the Starfinder campaign.
By the time it all comes around, my two stars aren't going to matter much, but for all those 3, 4 and 5 stars out there, I feel like it should count just as much as it does now and credit given for whichever PF ruleset you run as part of the PFS campaign.
Back to the point of the thread: Boons
Note: I am aware that I am as guilty as others for derailing it, though I have tried to keep it related to the need for PFS PF1 campaign boon support as incentive for people to GM PFS PF1 games.
As I stated earlier, I like how Starfinder boon slots work.
However, part of the stated reason for the change on the blog was to reduce the amount of book keeping needed to keep track of all the boons one has accumulated on random chronicles. The addition of the slotless boon defeated this purpose. Now, all is fine and good in Starfinder, no need to change it up.
The PFS PF2 campaign is an opportunity to try to do it again: reduce the need to flip through a dozen chronicles to remember that you have a +X to do Y. Use boon slots, forgo slotless boons except in the most special cases, and make all boons truly significant (and more generally applicable) when slotted.
E.g. If I have an "Achievement Boon" slot, something that I can slot there that gives me +1 to Diplomacy vs. all creatures of the goblin subtype is going to matter a lot more than +1 to Intimidate slave trading pirates who wear blue eyepatches when within 50 miles of the Shackles.
Some boon slot types to think about (mostly repeated from SF for those who haven't payed much attention to SFS):
Ally - this has manifested in some cool ways in SF
The 'how' could be easy: You have a 5th level paladin in PF1. You convert it to a 5th level paladin in PF2.
The challenge would be with classes that don't exist in PF2.
I don't know that everyone that wants some form of conversion is demanding to make a 1:1 port. I think they understand that certain feats and abilities won't exist. However, I'll give you an example of a character that I would like to maintain from PFS1e campaign to PFS2e campaign.
I had an idea for an Elemental Ally archtype Druid. He was my first character played in a special, which happened to be 8-00: The Cosmic Captive. That was great for the character, but then he kind of faded as there wasn't much else left in Season 8 that seemed applicable to him. Then the Concordance of Elements faction was announced, and I'm very excited to play him in the Concordance themed scenarios.
As my first Concordance character, who was there at the very beginning of the Concordance faction, I'd like him to continue the Concordance story line when it transitions to PFS2e campaign. I'm not even worried about the Elemental Ally archetype going away. I now want the character and his achievements within the Concordance faction to matter and to continue in the new stories. Sure, I could make a Newt 2.0 and start over from 1st level. But it would be very nice if somehow the Concordance reputation that he had earned could carry over (and even nicer if the experience could carry over).
And I would be willing to wait 2 years for the content to catch up to my character to play my favorite higher level character (if I had anyone above 3rd).
Could you tell me where I am going to get those 400 xp worth of playing opportunities? Because it's not going to be within 4 hours of where I live.
EDIT: The question is rhetorical. I'm sure somewhere far too far away for me, I could keep playing PFS PF1. However, the point that I want to underline is this: someone who has an opportunity to select from multiple tables every week (or maybe even more than once a week) does not know how those of us who are lucky to get 1 table per month feel about this. The "there's going to be all this content to keep playing" comments made in various forms in an effort to try to shut down the concerns of small lodges is getting on my nerves.
I'm really happy to hear that existing 1e scenarios can be played and enjoyed indefinitely alongside 2e scenarios. I think when more people realize that the new edition won't totally displace the previous edition, things will calm down a bit.
That's going to be very lodge dependent. Small lodges can't support multiple systems, especially without a GM incentive.
Starfinder has a GM incentive, and my lodge gave up on it because the tables never filled.
Gary Bush wrote:
I don't think many (of the vocal) people are thinking about how other lodges that are smaller than theirs might be affected. They continue to say "PFS1e will still be around" as if that addresses every argument to retain or transfer some sort of credit earned over to the new system.
If there's no incentive to GM PFS1e, then there will be no PFS1e in my lodge (and my nearest other lodges are 4 hour drives away).
This is different than adding Starfinder (of which there is none at my lodge). With Starfinder, they added a whole new campaign. With PFS2e, they're stopping production of one and starting a different one.