Lou, I have to say that I hope Nick understands that friends like you are few and far between. You have stepped into the Poo Storm twice now when you really didn't have to,nd the sheer effort that you put into creating a finished product of RC was staggering. It was only thanks to my overwhelming cynicisim that I didn't preorder RC. The sheer audacity of the project seemed almost too big to be viable. I was sad to see that I was right. Even so, if RC is ever put in print, I will be first in line to buy it.
Nick, even the best of us have fallen victim to our demons. As a game author you are one of my favorites (You and Pett)and if I saw your name on a modual, I would buy it without so much as a glance at the subject matter. I knew that your work would disturb me and my players and that is no easy task. Your apology is well received (though if a bit late in the game)and I look forward to your return to the gaming world. I still remain an avid fan.
The whole incident has kept me from preordering anything, even from Paizo. I had almost fell for the preorder of Razor Coast because I wanted to see if it could be converted to run as a sequel or continuation of Savage Tide, but I've been so glad that I decided to wait for it to be released.
I think Logue has the potential to have this turn into a public lynching. People are angry about what happened with Razor Coast, especially those who still haven't gotten refunds (Rightfully so!) And while Nick has designed some of the best games I've ever run, I think that his baggage might lead to an ugly scene.
The problem is that it went from too many gods, cities and npcs to a scorched toril that still had too many god, cities and the nps would come if the system was supported. FR was as fleshed out as you wanted it to be. Going back to 2E stuff there was so much information on FR. I have two books of flora and fauna for Sune's sake! And No, I understand that they're not coming to take my books away (They're hard copies and not PDF's hanging out in the Cloud)But in that aspect they also aren't making more. And given the literally thousands of dollars i've spent just on game suplements and novels for FR, I think I have a right to be p!$$3d when I'm told by the company how bad my favorite game world sucks and needs to be changed.
Could they do a setting playing in all eras? Maybe. But the Spell Plague was a bad idea that was badly implemented for a setting that they had no intention of supporting beyond the two or so core books that they dumped and then moved on. They simply could have left it alone and let the authors gradually move 4E terminology into the writing as opposed to forcing it in with a hammer.
On a postive note: The Simbul as the new Mystra would rock.
Last thing on 4E- Flying mountains (Not the Netheril one, but the ones that fly for no reason) Are stupid. They were stupid in Avatar, they were stupid in 4E and they'll still be stupid whe the next hack decides it'll look soooo cool!
Seriously? Where did this happen? Was it post SP or right in the middle of the changeover?
Yes, but the Lady Penitent Series was it's continuation and that was what was used to set up the whole changeover to 4E. And its ending was was one of the most jacked up pieces of crap writen, which is sad because I actually liked the writer and the writing style. But the content was horrid.
Scott Betts wrote:
Overly invested is having personally read over a hundred novels in this setting. This is more that my next fvie favorite authors combined. Because these books come from a shared setting, it isn't treated like each individual author is a seperate entity, but one piece of a much larger story. The fact that so many of their books ended up on the New York Times Best Sellers List means that up until the Spell Plague, they were doing something right with the books. Honestly they could fix it like every comic book continuity problem that Marvel & DC comics tends to have. They just wipe it away with a weak story and drive on like it didn't happen. They wiped out something like five years of Spiderman in just two issues of weak story. My wife was screaming about it for a month.
I honestly think my biggest problem with 4E was what they did with Forgotten Realms. There were just so many bad decisions in the last half dozen books attached to the change over. Killing Mystra, Mask and Eilistraee for starters. Here's a simple guideline any time you are in the middle of a story and you say Cut! Now lets jump X numebers of years into the future (This includes Battlestar Galactica) it's a bad idea. But to jump a full hundred years into the future? Awful!
What truely confused me about 4E was the whole 'Points of Light' we're not going to have a setting for the core, and then they put out a general world set of novels. What? Are the books now cannon or aren't they?
Personally I'm amazed that Ed Greenwood hasn't shown up at WoTC with a bottle of Jack Daniels and a flamethrower. IF I had built the world I'd be rabid over what they did to it.
It's been a while since I posted here, about three and a half years I think. But now that 4E is dead, has anyone heard what's going to happen to Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance or any of the other settings? Up until the Spell Plague and the Destruction of Forgotten Realms, I read every FR novel that came out, but the changes made to the setting and the mass kill off of so many established characters made me walk away from the book series (For which I was thankful for the Pathfinder fiction line). I have noticed that since the 4E roll out, the number of novels being put out has declined, and i'm not seeing alot of stuff from established D&D authors (Except Salvator, but I'm not even going to touch the whole good Drow/evil Drow catastrophy that played out during the crossover to 4E).
So I guess what I'm asking is if anyone's heard anything?
Pete Apple wrote:
Spammed 10 post? Sorry, I don't have all day to sit in front of a computer keeping up with all this crap. I have a business to run. I respond to what ever post I have time to read in the morning. Single me out like this again and I'll take it to a mod.
And you think sitting on the outside taking shots and repeating the mantra that it's only a game, when that's what keeps pissing us off is helpful? You're not nearly as contructive as you think you are.
The digital version of the "Magazines is a pale poorly formed replacement for the product that paizo was producing.
Where does Wizards say that older customers were fools for buying previous editions of D&D?
Did you listen to the video that they presented at Gencon? They tell you that the old system was flawed crap that was no fun to play (crap is my word).
To paraphrase Abe Lincoln, calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one.
And calling a spade a spade doesn't change the fact that it's still a f*$king shovel.
Is this a shot at me, or are you just stating your own values?
Patrick Curtin wrote:
Must know if there will be a Sigil analog on the Neutral Plane. Or will this cleave too close to WotC's IP?
Planescape to me was always one of the lamer concepts developed for D&D. I've always thought that planular travel and the exhistance of the ohter planes should be handled like should be handled differently. I've used the Great Wheel, but not as the reality of the cosmology, but as a mortal drawn concept so that mortals can wrap their tiny little minds around the realms. (And don't get me started on the whole crystal spheres thing, that was dumb to the millionth power.)WHat I use is a little Star Trekish (Next Gen) OF the Idea of infinite dimension and infinite worlds. In my HBW I have two seperate worlds that the PCs travel back and forth to. Each one is on it's own plane of existance, Each one has it's own set of deities (Though deities from either world are worshiped it both.) I spare you a description of my cosmology it's very complicated, with deities being actually a lower creature and another group of creatures from outside of creation being the ones that really run the show. (IT's this tweek that allows me to run very high level games.)
Thank god someone finally took this thread off the path of good natured ribbing and healthy community spirit and dragged it back into the neverending pile of s&!% that is the edition wars. That's just what was needed! Pat yourselves on the backs, you guys rule.
Oh Sebastian, Is your bridal too tight?
Pat Payne wrote:
But the truth is, it isn't just a game. All of my close friends are gamers. I met my wife playing D&D. My sister and brother-in-law are both gamers, and my niece and nephew are learning how to play. The game that we play is an integral part of the social aspect of our lives. It has kept us close and in contact for decades. It is as much a part of my life as my family, my job or my faith.
Well, let's see... THey cancel Dungeon & Dragon, Hold off releasing the rules and the GSL of almost a year leaving most of thier 3PP's hanging, they turn the GSL into a noose, and then they spend their entire marketing budget tell their customers (I.E. us) that the stuff they've been selling us sucks and we were fools for buying it and now the only way our game will every be good agin is to buy all of our new, poorly playtested, cheaply printed overpriced new books, that are in no way compatiable with that old crap you spent a fortune buying. I call that force. Especially when you are the 800lb gorilla.
Pete Apple wrote:
Check this one.
Sorry I don't know how to link.
The Rolling Stones are still touring. If they're not oldies, I don't know what is. I don't think touring can be the benchmark.
I heard Motley Crue on the oldies station the other day and wanted to scream.
I'm fine with suffering, as long as I'm the one causing it.
And if that is the solution of 4E why wasn't that simply applied to 3.5 and called done?
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
Personally I'm still pissed about FR. The simple reality is that the only times things change is when people are vocal in their opposition. I've written a letter directly to WotC with my oppinion and I have recieved my nice little form letter. I'm vocal because if I am not, I feel like my silence is consent for what Wizards is doing. Especially when you have the 4E fanboys trying to get Paizo to go 4E. I am hostile and vocal because I see myself as a good customer being thrown under the bus by WotC for being out of their NEW target demographic.
(That's about as nice as I can get on this subject.)
And by disinformation, you mean anyone who has looked at 4E and doesn't see it exactly like you do.
Let's be real about the original TSR barbarian for a second. It wasn't just about race. It was about recognition. The barbarian was a big muscular white guy because Conan was a big muscular white guy. I can't count the numer of times I've seen some variation of this image, even from non-caucasion artists.
As far as the scantily clad women? I feel this is cultural with Judeo Christian society. It is an ingrained fear and loathing of human sexuality and the beauty of the nude of partially clothed human form. As an artist I tend to enjoy drawing women more than men A) because Im a hetrosexual Male, And B) because the line and form of a womans body is softer (Especially when doing fantasy art.) I've worked hard to build a game world that doesn't reflect Juedo Christian norms as the default when there isn't a religious equivalent in my world. (A major pet peeve of mine is the use of crosses in fantasy art. Reaper is notorious for this in their minis.)
Then that's exactly what YOU need to do for YOUR game. Not Pathfinder doing it for the whole system. SUre a wizard can pick a lock with a spell better than a thief...as long as they have it memorized enough times to do it every time the party needs it.
I haven't seen how Pathfinder deals with multiclassing but if it still exists in Pathfinder it should be removed. multiclassing is way more trouble than it's worth.
Are you talking as a player or a DM?
It might also be worth looking at games like True 20 and Mutants & Masterminds to see if there's anything they have that can be adapted for use in Pathfinder. If paizo took all the best parts of pathfinder, 4E, M&M/True 20, and some other D20 variants and mixed in some new stuff of their own I think they'd be able to make the best version of D&D ever.
And then Patfinder can look like the gamesystems that didn't sell as well a 3.5 D&D. But on the bright side, PFRPG being 3.5 OGl means that you can combine all of this 3PP stuff into you home game...(Unless they all go 4E).
Gary Teter wrote:
I'm sorry Gary, but I think Razz is fine. The simple fact is that I think Razz has gotten more hostile due to the sheer number of 4E fans that kind of follow him around as he posts saying "Shut up Idiot!" every time he tries to make a point. WHile I agree Razz gets a little vague in his ideas, not everone can argue in a calm articulat manor. Believe me, it took me weeks after hearing about 4E and the changes to FR to open my mouth on the subject and not sound like I had touretts.
*High five* Good job!
I like that. I do that alot myself: Name's cool, but what it represents suck, keep name, toss thing, put name on new thing new thing has cool name. Win-Win.
As long as you don't make banning some lame once per encounter power.
That's the problem with most Stephen King books turned into movies (With a few exceptions.)
The trick to making a good Robotech movie LA is that they have to remember that the big robots are not the main characters. I loved the series as a kid and even now (Bought the full box set) because of the human drama...Though I got to the point that uf U heard Minmei sing that F*&ing song one more time, I'd scream! It's not a good Idea to watch 36 episodes back to back.
But also following this out, I'm sick of seeing surface elves played out as a "Goodly Race". Goodly how? They are imperious, self centered, racist egotists. Their cluture usually feels like Rome during the decline. "Our culture is so superior to yours!" as their society crumbles and their people go into hidding. Yuck!
I personally don't mind the idea of non evil drow. Not shining lawful good, just not all of them have to be spider worshiping sadists.
In my FR campaign I have a sect of Vhaeraun followers who have returned to the surface, and have built a society where males and females are equal. They Will still kill you at the drop of a hat, but now when they get done, they can go home to their loving family.
Check out this game called "Porn Star or My Little Pony"
(NSFW warning! Though no nudity.)
(Sorry, I don't know how to link.)
This has to be the first time I've seen the word 'Ferments' in a compliment.
Pete Apple wrote:
My suggestion would depend on what you like in a book?
My personal favorites are pretty much anything by Elaine Cunninham, or Paul Kemp.
Ed Greenwood's work is good, but he's a bit of a perv, with and obsession of creepy old men hooked up with young hot women.
R.A. Salvatore has a very formulaic writing style, and avoid anything with his character Cadderly, trust me.
Andrew Betts wrote:
I personally would recommend "Blackstaff" by Steve Schend. Granted I'm biases since I'm taking a class with him right now. And I am definitely in minority when I say avoid the Salvatore stuff, I've only ever been able to complete two books by him and they were both Star Wars books. I just can't stand his writing (or Driz'zt), but I digress Steve's book is great and Blackstaff Tower can't be too terribly far behind.
That book was an abomination. The story told there shold have been given to one of the authors who helped flesh Blackstaff out, not some newbee writing thier first book.
Hate: Drizzt.... Salvatore should be beaten with his own books. :P
I think that Drizz't as a character has alot of potential, but I think Salvator is still too much in the mindset of TSR's oppressive guidelines that he was turned into a whinny vampire (You know the type that spend hours pissing and moaning about how much it sucks to be a vampire, Ugh!) In the last trilogy, I was hoping that Drizz't would end up with the moon elf chick he was working with (Can't remember her name off the top of my head) because his pseudo-relationship with Catibrie was tedious. And now that Salvator has finally gotten Drizz't and Cattibrie together, the world blows up, and the arch jumps 100yrs into the future so she's dead! *Blackdragon blinks...taking several deep breaths...* Sorry, It gets a little hard to stop once it gets rolling.
F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
I think that the drow have never been allowed to reach their full potential of evil. I would like to see more of a Melneibone society from Elric. A race that would play symphonies with the screams of tortures slaves. A race of pure excess and sexual sadisim. Mongooses had a good take on Drow, but the game of bones was impractical in game play. This would be a place that I would like to see Nick Logue turned loose to rake up the darkest parts of his mind. I'm just not sure you would be able to print the outcome.
Elaine Cunningham wrote:
Sorry for a small side track. I'm glad to see you're going to part of Pathfinder. I love your work. That said, I still have to tell you, I'm still mad you killed Fyodor. :p
Luna eladrin wrote:
We have been playing since 1987 (1st edition) and I have not noticed a decline of quality among players.
I think that this has to do with an over all decline in the value of imagination in out society. Our society is on visual overload, where every cell phone has internet, and MP3 player and streaming video. Children today aren't allowed to be borded long enough to exercise their imaginations. It's really sad.