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Mynafee Gorse

Bill Dunn's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 5,477 posts (6,393 including aliases). 4 reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 21 aliases.


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I don't directly penalize lack of role playing - I do, however, reward role playing. Good role playing tends to make task DCs a bit easier because I have more information to base my adjudications on. Backstories and thought-out motivations give me more opportunities to engage the player via that PC's connections and motivations.

Players who don't role play miss out on those opportunities and benefits. If they're OK with that, I don't have much of a problem with them. But I generally don't stop trying to draw them out a bit more.

And for my purposes, role playing isn't synonymous with acting or the craft of thespianship. That's a subset. It's more about playing the PC with the PC's distinct character in mind. It could be all in the 3rd person as far as I care.


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I'll leave any refreshing baths to yourselves and we can pick up with further investigations - or any other plans you want to pursue...

A bit on the alleged murder site:
Eodred's Walk is a row of shops along one of the streets that helps define the Gold Market, the largest open market in Korvosa. Along its run are:

Aram's Crown - a small tavern that sells weak beer and wine for the market crowd but breaks out stronger spirits after sunset
Basha's - a small book and map store
Doom and Gloom - an old Varisian woman who gives Harrow readings
Galloping Ghost - tack and harness store
Gemshare Jewelers - gem/jewel sellers (and resellers)
Hedge Wizardry - magical supply shop
High Bridge Haberdashery - more than just hats, also clothing shop
Kep's - fishmonger
Fair-Fished Baitshop - fishing supplies
Pinking Shears - barbershop
Slicing Dicers - bladed weapons
Smoked Foods - smoked meats and cheeses
Time Stop - clocks and watches
Trapper's Hole - hunting, particularly archery, equipment


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bbangerter wrote:


Usually when the rules don't mention something, it is because it is not allowed (though I'm not of the opinion that this is an absolute as some things would fail common sense - dead characters taking actions).

That is utter and complete BS in role playing games. If something isn't mentioned, it's because RPG rules cannot, literally cannot, cover everything that can possibly happen in a game. This is why we have referees who can adjudicate cases that come up that aren't in the rules but fit the genre or make sense to the situation at hand.


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You, the parents, and everyone who knew the li'l fella have my sympathies. I'm a parent of 2 kids and I can imagine the pain you're all feeling.

My suggestion: Scrapbook that character portfolio along with some photos to make a nice book of memories for the parents. Do it soon so it doesn't hang out there as an unfinished project and so the parents can have it as they work through their grief.


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Rysky wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Neither does the new Jingasa. Because you probably used it on the greataxe wielding cyclops a few levels back.

*shrugs*

Sell the old one, buy the new one. Do the same thing with scrolls and potions and other 1 use Wondrous Items.

A helmet is a bit of the wrong vehicle for a one-use magic item - a small charm of some sort would be much more fitting. I think a +1 luck bonus to AC would have still made for a much more flavorful item than the jingasa is now. While several of the fixes were, I think, good in coming, the jingasa is really a useless wreck of wrong design now.


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Blue Moose wrote:
Well, I have 100 of these in a variety of colors from the Kickstarter. Completely removed all the cubes from my dicebag.

I did something similar to replace my d4s.

12-sided d4

Reading them is a bit more intuitable than a tetrahedral d4. And they don't turn into caltrops if the cat knocks them to the floor in the middle of the night.


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NobodysHome wrote:

On the one hand, I think every responder is in 100% agreement that yes, a ghoul can CdG with its claws.

On the other hand, being a pedant, I'd like to keep hammering away at the point: The rules make a very clear distinction between "natural weapons" and other types of weapons, not only in my quote cited above, but in spells like Magic Weapon (does not work on natural weapons) and Magic Fang (only works on natural weapons).

So the notion that natural weapon = melee weapon is not supported anywhere in the PRD. Note that Protoman's post only proves that a natural weapon is a melee attack, not necessarily a melee weapon.

Yes, I agree the statement should be true, but I haven't been able to find any concrete statement that it is.

Is it referred to as a weapon (as in "natural weapon")? Is it used in melee? Then as far as I'm concerned weapon + melee = melee weapon. That's so obvious to me that the explicit "natural weapon = melee weapon" is unnecessary. Weapon + melee = melee weapon.

It's only the persistence of the term "natural attack" without using the term weapon that, I think, should give any pause here. But since natural weapon is explicitly used in some places like Magic Fang, I think it's pretty clear that natural attack = natural weapon.


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swoosh wrote:
Harleequin wrote:
I have only been playing PF for a short period of time but one of the things that I find most astounding is the staggering ingratitude shown towards GMs
You're playing a game. For fun. Why the hell do you need gratitude? That's pretty damn pretentious.

Oh, you know, to honor regular old human decency when someone puts in extra effort for the enjoyment of all...

Fortunately, my players are pretty good about it. They're all long-term players and/or GMs and know and honor the work that goes into the process.


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Communication may be a free action, but free actions are generally considered to be available to a character as it takes its turn. I'd treat them differently for perception rolls to avoid surprises. For other cases, like actively searching an area, I'd have one rolling to aid the other.
I don't think treating the summoner as if his perception checks are "take two and keep higher" would be appropriate.


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"NO! NO! You're looking for a reason to fight them! And I don't want any fighting over me!" she sobs.


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Sheriff Hemlock regards Ahdak coldly and assessingly then, apparently satisfied with whatever he found, gives a slight nod. "Go see Father Zantus at the cathedral. He will put you to use where he thinks you will do the most good."

Meanwhile, under Karl's stern interrogation, multiple goblins speak up, all talking over each other, to answer his question why they attacked the town. "Food. Loot. Burning. Food. Dead dogs, huh huh. Food. Shiny. Silver. Humans is jerks. You is jerk. No, you is jerk!" and though shackled, they jostle with each other in a quarrelsome manner, each trying to make sure his answer is the one Karl is listening to. The one most under Karl's blade, however, shouts over the others, "Shut up!" Then he grins, "Longshanks give orders. Scarbelly say we listen to Mopeyman. Mopeyman send goblins at town while he go to boneyard."


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GM_Beernorg wrote:
(she was a LG marshal (3.5 convert class)/psychic warrior, did not like being told to hang up her sword and find a man)

Who told your character to do this? Even in the write up in which Erastil is a bit of a male chauvinist, this isn't a necessary outcome. If this is the outcome presented to you, someone was reading way more hostility into it.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
thejeff wrote:
It's also a fantasy world, which means we're not necessarily dealing with humans. Different species can have different psychologies and respond differently to such pressures or even have completely different gender divides or even genders for that matter.
True but since we have very limited to no experience with non-human sapience, we generally characterize these races with caricatures of human behavior.

True, but taking a shot at developing or working with a race with different gender psychologies can be a lot of fun. Back on Traveller's Aslan example, one of the really fun aspects of their gender divide is how that spills over into how they deal with other races and cultures. A human male working in a technical or financial field will be assumed to be female by the Aslan because, to them, those are female jobs. That's a fun one to spring on your male players with engineer or steward PCs.

Traveller writers did some pretty awesome development of alien races over the years (one of my favorites being the K'Kree). Though most of them don't really address this topic quite like the Aslan do, I'd recommend people check out any resources you stumble on about the K'Kree, Vargr, Aslan, Droyne, and Hivers. Even the other human cultures (Zhodani and Vilani) have some nice ideas to them.


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Jessica Price wrote:


I'm unclear as to why anyone would think that men's opinions on women in gaming groups are relevant or needed.

Maybe you should take that up with the OP. She's the one who asked us.


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Aelryinth wrote:

And the adamantine golem isn't even made of pure adamantine, merely some small fraction of its total mass. That's exactly like arguing my sword's blade is made of adamantine, gold, mithral, and platinum, so I get DR/Adamatine because I say it's the same as a true adamantine weapon. It doesn't have the Cannon Golem's language, so it doesn't get the ability.

Exactly like arguing the blade is made of multiple materials? I'd quibble that. More like the adamantine sword has gold and platinum inlays and mithral wire on the hilt. The business part is adamantine. The question is, does it make sense for the business end or the outer shell of the adamantine golem to be adamantine? For my money it does, hence the name rather than some-other-material golem as well as its DR which was clearly envisioned as better than adamantine.


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thorin001 wrote:

It is a serious question because it is a major sign of an overly controlling GM. And they do not want players, they want an audience to ooh and ah at their amazing story.

Also, what makes you, or any other GM, more immune to metagaming than the players? Don't say that it is not metagaming when the GM does it, because that is a bald faced lie. GMs may not do it with skill checks, but they do it with PC abilities and tactics.

So? You have to realize the GM isn't simply a player. He's also part of the system and above the system at the same time. His role is very different from the players' roles.

Ultimately, assuming fair dice all around, there's no systematic or functional difference between the player rolling and the GM rolling in secret (barring optional rules like hero points or certain feats that allow rerolls and suggest the player knows the outcome on the dice). I've run and participated in online games in which the GM handled all rolls. In those cases, the gameplay can be considerably streamlined by doing do.


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Sissyl wrote:
Sooooo, if I played a campaign where the communities were nomadic bands on a huge plain... With no other settlements available... WITHOUT surprising anyone with this... Could I possibly be playing Pathfinder anyway? Or am I playing some other game? More generally, what could be removed from the game before I was not playing PF? Bags of holding? Orcs? Elves? Wayang? Dorn-dergar? Falcatas? Or would removing the possibility of having bags of holding make it impossible to play PF, even if everything else remains? Would it change anything if the campaign played out in a massive extradimensional space, meaning bags of holding do not work by the rules?

If you're using the Pathfinder rules, even a subset of the rules because of campaign-based environments, you're playing Pathfinder. Full stop.

Humans only campaign using the PF mechanics? Pathfinder game.
Dwarven wizard only campaign using the PF mechanics? Pathfinder game.
Roman Legion-inspired game with extremely limited magic using the PF mechanics? Pathfinder game.


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Probably very little. The common tongue on Golarion is Taldane because Taldor dominated so much of the terrain and was a major economic and political power. I would expect undercommon to reflect a similar arrangement for deeper races and be based on the language of the most dominant culture.


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Well, you know, phenomenal cosmic power has to come with some price now and again - and the difficulty in subtlety is one of them.


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Ultimately, the fix is even more trivial when you realize that you shouldn't be making someone roll to spot a siege engine being assembled out in the open. That's not really a fine detail nor a situation in which the outcome should be in question and subject to a roll. Save that sort of thing for when you're asking for genuine fine details like trying to spot whose livery the crew or crew leader is wearing.


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Even in the modern world, inheritance is held up for months to allow creditors to come forward and make their claims on the estate. It wouldn't be a stretch to see the authorities doing something similar with respect to raising the dead. They'd just hold off on allowing the heirs to take over the property (or rights, or whatever) until a reasonable period has passed.


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Whenever comments about being unable to see the sun/moon/lighthouse or the economic benefits of using a major creation spell vs crafting something or, really, anything along these lines intended to make the simulative aspects of the rules look like a joke - I write it off as someone using the rules in ways they aren't intended to be used. These are RPG rules - they're not economic or physics simulators. They're designed to operationalize things players want their PCs to do with reasonable nods to how we understand things to work in the real world crossed with how they work in inspirational fantasy sources ranging from books to movies and further crossed with compromises made to facilitate the usability and flow of the game. Using them to simulate an economy or determine if someone can see the sun are about as useful as using a skunk do your taxes.


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I had canceled my subscription just before this publication. I had planned on getting it all along - just as a PDF to save some cost. But now, curses, I must wait to get it compared to when I too had been a subscriber!


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zainale wrote:
why isn't there more maxed leveled cross classing elves? humans learn fast. but it takes the same amount of exp for a human and an elf to lvl up in a class. elves live like 5 life times of that of a human to get to retirement. i am sure with the amount of years an elf has he or she can get to lvl 20 many times. and taking wizardry or barddom out of boredom in their old age to pass the time.

Because the NPCs in a campaign don't live under PC rules when it comes to XPs and leveling up. It's as simple as that.


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Yeah, I'm OK with that Karl.

I'm willing to allow other people rebuilds during 1st level as they feel out their characters. Not every character works as well in play as we envision.


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Ravingdork wrote:


Maybe the problem isn't the optimizer, but the lack of investiture of the other players. I've found that some peoples' level of interest in the game just isn't as high as others--and this invariably effects the power level of their characters.

The other players may not be as invested in delving into the rules and developing power builds, but that doesn't make them "the problem". The problem is clashing styles and not enough effort put toward convergence. And, unfortunately for the power gamer, the onus is generally on the oddball to conform to the group rather than have the group conform to the oddball.


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Aosrax wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
Is the ranger players one of the experienced players or new? And if experienced, what games has he played? There are some games a bit more player-oriented when it comes to some if these narrative outcomes. He may be projecting that onto the game you're running, though it clashes with your GM style.

He's one of the new players. The two experienced are the two magic users.

My suggestion is to encourage him to relax on the mechanics and focus on what his character is trying to do from an in-character perspective, letting you, as the GM, fit the mechanics to the situation.


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Well, we can throwing more suggestions at the wall, but if you want to keep playing Wednesday as a less miserable character - you're going to have to let at least one of them stick. I know it's only been a couple of suggestions so far, but you've been pretty quick to dismiss them and that's giving me a vibe that you're resistant to changing him or putting too much emphasis on what's "in character" for him - when the point is to change that.


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Tormsskull wrote:


How do you view leveling up?

From an in-game perspective, I view leveling up as nothing at all significant. It's just the game mechanical abstraction of a character's continual improvement administered in discrete chunks for convenience and easy of use.

And if a PC picks up a new class, I prefer it if a player telegraphs their intention so it's easier to meld it into the story of the character's development.


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I have people role play first too because I like to modify their result based on what they said, how they said it, and whether they had a particularly good approach. And in this case, for players who are shy or not good at acting, third person descriptions also count. I'm looking mostly for effort and thoughtfulness, not thespianism.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
hiiamtom wrote:
That makes sense, this sounded like one of those classic Paizo rulings (complete with SKR acting superior to most other game designers). I'll probably keep the 3.5 ruling, I honestly thought this hands of effort thing was never FAQed and that the "exchange any weapon in iterative attacks" FAQ covered it.

You're going to get some funky results and a house rule/interpretation either way, I'd use caution before throwing it out. Pathfinders slew of non hand occupying weapons at least have been released with the idea that you can't Glaive guisarm armored spike boot blade dwarven helmet and barbazu beard all together.

You could say that there's no given attack routine for that many hands, but there isn't anything against it either.

For my money, that issue would have been better fended off by saying that TWF allows one extra attack (subject to more advanced TWF feats) as long as the character has some appropriate weapon in play - be it a barbazu beard, a spiked helmet, boot spike, armor spikes, or an unarmed strike. Then you wouldn't have to go through the BS invocation of unwritten, undiscoverable rules like "hands of effort".


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It's important to note that there is a footnote in the Attack of Opportunity column that says that movement can still cause an AoO for leaving a threatened square. The Yes/No in that column refers to the action itself.


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You may be sick of it, but how does everyone else feel?


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Vendra nods at Cassandra's request, "Of course you can purchase a dose of my liniment. It pays to be prepared even if you don't have the dreadful blood veil." She motions to one of the girls at the counter who picks up a vial of the liniment and holds it ready for Cassandra.

Meanwhile, amid the reformed queue, rumors are already flying about Victor's escapade in the shop.
"It was a necromancer - probably from the Acadamae. If they need the cure, what hope do the rest of us have?"

"It was a Sczarni shakedown if ever I saw one. They must be trying to muscle in."

"That was a priest of Zon-Kuthon comin' to stop Vendra sellin' a cure to his plague, I tells ya. But Vendra, she showed him, run him clear off."

"Oh, I just know a curse has been put on this place."
"Then why are you still waiting in line?"
"I've got 3 little ones sick at home."


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Rysky wrote:
Corathonv2 wrote:
Not a dungeon for 9-year-olds.
Or for little b$%#~es that steal and destroy other people's character sheets.

We don't steal them - we take them. They go up on a wall of the dead so that all who come may see the toll the GM has taken and despair.

I posted quite a few up in a Call of Cthulhu campaign. Backpacks full of dynamite are not necessarily a good idea. The lone surviving investigator was a lawyer who decided to file a class action lawsuit against the dynamite manufacturer.


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phantom1592 wrote:


And frankly, hearing all these stories makes me A) Extremely thankful for the group of friends I have... and B) curious if all those Anti-D&D people years back had a point. This hobby draws some SICK people...

It draws a slice of humanity - and humanity includes some very sick people.

As far as drawing more than its fair share? Maybe, but it's not exactly D&D's fault. People often play to escape - that's why there are such blow-ups in the forums about various real-world issues like racism or sexism in games - they want to escape those aspects of the real world. Well, think about this thread and especially the kid who went from sitting with his feet in the wastebasket to murdering two younger children, and just imagine what issues some people are trying to escape by playing D&D.


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Tacticslion wrote:

This actually is a really good point, and I was in agreement, but the more I thought about it, the more fault I have with the argument - not that Nox is making it, but rather the logic train that flows from it.

Effectively, there is no skill use in which 20 could be taken under this line of thought.

A list of skills: Show
... so at what point could I possibly take 20, in any situation ever?

I think what you really need to consider is not just failure is possible but what happens when you fail (other than waste time). You can take 20 with the skills in the example (disable device to open locks, escape artist, perception to search for traps/secret doors/hidden stuff) because failure costs you nothing significant - you just try again. Your lockpick won't break. You won't jam the lock. The restraining device won't get tighter. And, for the last one, simply searching for traps won't trigger them.

But you're right in one sense - there aren't all that many skills that really allow someone to take 20 because there's usually more at stake then just lost time.

And while it is true that there is an opportunity loss for failing to open a lock or find a secret door and there may be more profound penalties for failing to escape or find a deadly trap, those are really penalties of another sort that don't flow directly from failing to use the skill. If you need to use escape artist, you were already restrained by something and that's what gets you in the end. And in the case of failing to find a trap, depending on what you then do, you may still never actually trigger the trap - it's trigger is based on some criteria specific to it and if you never trigger it, it doesn't matter than you never found it.


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Ravingdork wrote:

Anything stopping me from taking 20 on my sleight of hand check to conceal an item on my person?

If it's allowed, why wouldn't everyone do that? When using sleight of hand to hide something on your person, or the disguise skill to make a disguise, you generally have plenty of time anyways.

Indeed that would be a problem. Fortunately, it doesn't really make sense from the standpoint of the mechanics to take 20 on opposed checks - which assume failure before highest possible result. And what's the failure for a disguise check? Having the disguise penetrated by someone you want to fool.


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There are no obvious access points into the building directly from the rooftop. However, a short drop can get them into the hallways of the second floor right about where the stairs on the outside of the building end. In a typical build of this style, the second floor is usually all personal apartments - the ones in front having windows, the ones in back being cheaper and windowless. The ground floor usually has shops in the front, more apartments in the back. Each apartment would have a number but very rarely any other identifying feature - names are not typically on display. Cassandra and Amira could easily find access just dropping down to the level of one of the stairs reaching the second floor.

The customers standing in line make way for Tolenn to stand against the wall in the entryway and they especially make way for Wednesday and his freaky scythe. One old lady swoons in a faint for fear some grim reaper has come for her soul. That draws a few dirty looks Wednesday's way.

The guard at the door looks Victor up and down as if assessing him. "Cure's 2 gold per dose and the end of the line's that way," he says, gesturing toward the end of the line 4 blocks away. But he also raises an eyebrow and flexes his hand in the universal sign of "I'm open for bribes".


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Deranged_Maniac_Ben wrote:


I don't agree with Steve Geddes on much, but I agree on this issue. I actually don't mind "permanent mysteries" (I like them, in fact). What I am bothered by is when the author(s) says that it isn't a mystery and they do have an answer, but will never reveal it.

I'm on the flip side of this one. James Jacob's has made it clear that Golarion has a canon that precedes Paizo's publication of it - hence the various changes that have occurred, mostly off the books, when authors have gone in directions different from his vision yet have made it into publications. So of course, there's an answer to the mystery in his version of Golarion.

But by keeping that information out of our hands, that's a key piece in saying "Go run your version of Golarion". Every GM is going to come up with a different answer to the question. Making that decision, or thinking about it even if the GM makes no decision, is when that campaign really crosses the Rubicon, to use a classic reference, and becomes irrevocably different from every other one - including James's.


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I think there is and most people would perceive a difference between a person drafted, handed a gun, and told to kill the enemy and a person drafted, handed a rake, and told to rake up a minefield.


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Kryzbyn wrote:
thejeff wrote:


I think the diplomatic mission (which was probably just a cover story anyway) was from the Senate to Alderann.
They were attacked over Tatooine, so if they were going from Coruscant to Alderaan, they went the wrong way...

It's not the wrong way if you're on your way to pick up a dignitary like Obi-wan Kenobi for a state visit to Alderaan.


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Maybe you should lighten up a bit. I don't see how one event is going to affect their alignment at all. What they did was dumb - but unlikely to actually have an effect (at least in most games). While it makes sense that good characters would be horribly offended at these yahoos trying to invoke an evil goddess in the raising of their comrades, a bit of berating them is probably all that's really necessary. They're not clerics, they won't wield powerful divine spells - there's a limited amount of damage they can really do.


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Part of the problem with all of this is the fact that the nauseated condition really hasn't received a significant revision since the dawn of 3e - long before there were such things as swift or immediate actions to complicate matters.

Personally, I think it excessively rigid to not allow free actions while allowing any actions at all - in this case a move action. Moreover, earlier versions of staggered, while allowing swift and immediate actions, didn't allow free actions either. That came with later revision. With that in mind, I'd venture a guess that nobody really envisioned denying free actions when PCs have their actions partially reduced. My expectation is that if there is a clarification - free actions would be allowed - barring, of course, GM adjudication.


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Can we consider giving it a rest about doing this in the homebrew forum? The question that started this thread was about the rules and that makes it legitimate for the rules question forum. That it digressed a little shouldn't matter.


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Mark Moreland wrote:


Alternatively, it's a place where you can see some of the "cool things" that you can use in your game as you see fit that you otherwise wouldn't find in a new book we put out. Just because Paizo changes course on canonical matters doesn't mean that the original is forbidden at individual GMs' tables, just that we won't be retreading the topics in future products.

So if there's something you see in this thread that you like, feel free to run with it. Ultimately no idea is bad if it makes your game more fun, but doesn't mean we can't work to perfect the unified vision of what our campaign setting is in our own products.

Indeed. Had I not checked this thread out, I probably never would have even noticed the changes to Taldor. I would have gone with the 2009 Companion volume which has the banning of Sarenrae and the beard fixations. Frankly, I think getting rid of those two things gets rid of two of the most interesting and distinctive aspects of Taldor - old, decadent, crumbling empires being sort of "old hat" in RPG campaigns.


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Then I have a theme to explore as the campaign advances...

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