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Mynafee Gorse

Bill Dunn's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 4,196 posts (4,461 including aliases). 4 reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 12 aliases.


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I make my players roll when I'm GMing. I have them use 4d6, drop lowest, roll up 2 sets, take the set you prefer.

OK, but then I think the arrows should go into the Acquired or Given area, right? Otherwise, they contribute to the gained gold at the top of the spreadsheet in D1 but aren't removed from the total in B1. That is, if I understand the intention of the spreadsheet's structure...

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Corrik wrote:
Wheldrake wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Wheldrake wrote:
Yes, since it takes a crafter of 15+ level to craft a +5 sword (and so on) those really cool magic weapons can't be cranked out by just anybody.
No, it doesn't. For a +5 DC modifier, you can craft it as soon as you have the feat and the gold.

Although that may be RAW, it's a patently ridiculous loophole in the magic crafting rules. Caster level requirements should be hard limits that you can never get around simply by adding a measly +5 to your crafting DC.

Again, I realize that is correct according to RAW, but IMHO any sane DM should make the caster level requirements hard limits, or else the whole system just falls apart. And I do not believe that was the RAI of the +5 DC caveat.

They have had several reprints to change that rule if it wasn't working as intended.

I don't think they need to. Consider the magic item crafting rules. Being able to skip a prerequisite for a +5 DC is a general rule. The caster level rules for arms and armor are called out as special prerequisites. As I see it, those are specific rules trumping general. So, no skipping the special level requirements for arms and armor for a +5 DC...

But once purchasing is finished (which we can handle in plenty of time in the discussion thread, it's time to set out...

Finally, Sandru's preparations are complete. Ameiko has placed the care of her home and the Rusty Dragon in the hands of her staff. And the caravan is ready to set out. Koya and Rawnie are able to determine that initial portents are favorable, a fact that seems to make Sandru's Varisian drivers happy. With Shalelu and Masamune acting as scouts, riding (or in Shalelu's case, walking) on ahead, the caravan sets out from Sandpoint. A fairly large group of well-wishers is in attendance to see the travelers off, including, of course, Sheriff Belor Hemlock.

As the caravan moves north along the old coast road, routines set in fairly quickly. Masamune and Shalelu periodically range outward and report back. The caravan stops for midday rests and food, with the drivers unharnessing the horses to give them respite from their burdens. An hour or so before dusk, Sandru calls a halt to the caravan and camp is set up. Ameiko cooks at all meals, though she recruits occasional help as well. Nighttime is spent with the wagons drawn close, the horses 'penned' in the middle, and with people holding watches...

Let me know what sorts of watches you want to keep. All of the NPCs are available - Sandru generally suggests having 2 people on watch given your plentiful numbers. That means Bevelek, Vankor, and Eugeni are available watch with people - as are Koya, Shalelu, Sandru, and Ameiko.

As far as buying things in town, masterwork items are readily available for the list price (generally 300+cost of weapon or 150+cost of armor). Significant magic, not many of you can easily afford at this point. I confess I'm not sure how much you have available to me right now because I'm not sure the spreadsheet Masamune put together is up to date with accounting how the money is apportioned out or handled once sold. Should the magic arrows go in the Acquired/Given column? Right now, they show up in the figures as if they were sold...

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Jiggy wrote:

I've never seen anyone try to get away with less. Ever. Rather, what you describe here is the group of people who are feeling (accurately or not) pointed at when certain posters talk about people who don't care about roleplaying.

I've seen it and didn't like it, so that's why I push any player trying that to do more when I run games.

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Jiggy wrote:

There are people who want to play a character that they themselves are not capable of representing completely, who nevertheless care a great deal about roleplaying, immersion, and the fun of the other players; and are interested in far, far more than just "diplomacy-ing people", punching faces and counting loot.

I don't understand why it is hard for you to accept that this category of people exists.

I think people are getting a bit overly emotional about his issue right now. I can totally see where the secret fire is coming from. If a player takes no effort to role play - and like he said, we're not talking rhetoric here - when other players are willing to make the effort then I think the game suffers for it.

And here, I'm not talking about always talking in character or with flowery speeches that exactly fit their Charismas. I'm looking for an effort to put together the major points of an attempt at diplomacy, the tactics used, and all fitting with the PC's perspective and what they could and would understand of the situation. If the player can do it in character, all the better.

But if someone wants to just say "I use diplomacy on him" and roll... they can do that at another table.

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In the PF campaigns I participate in, we've done it a few ways depending on the GM and the specific setting.

Shackled City (technically 3.5 but about the same) - there was one well-known magic shop and I adjusted its inventory every time the PCs leveled up, bought stuff from it, or sold stuff to it. Anything else had to be either commissioned from the local wizard academy or temples or had to be imported from another location. I didn't do too much to restrict what was available - just what was readily available.

Council of Thieves - Generally followed the 75% availability rule but handled it via local shops. With Westcrown being such a metropolis (even if in decline), I thought it would be best to provide a local neighborhood of shops that the PCs would live around and provide them some local grounding. We role played out several meetings at shops with PCs asking about enchanted items. The local weaponsmiths had weapons, armorers had armor, and so on. A couple of curio places had more general and varied items. But the availability was based on the 75% guideline unless the items were particularly rare or silvered. Silvered items had to be obtained under the table and that meant forging a good relationship with the merchant first. Hey, it was in Cheliax, after all. If silvered weapons aren't controlled, they sure should be.
One of the PCs - a dwarven monk - also took master craftsman and craft wondrous items so he could use his jeweler's skill to make general magic items.

Skull and Shackles - in this case I'm a player so another GM is in charge. He has us basically gathering information if we're looking for specific items. That will clue us in on whether or not there's an item we want about and the owner is looking for buyers.

And for a 3e-based classic modules campaign in which the PCs happened to do a major service for a wealthy and powerful merchant - I gave them discounts on any magic items commissioned through his firm. That gave them the chance to request what they want and get a price break not quite as good as if they had craft it themselves. In that campaign, I also let a sorcerer have a cohort mystic theurge who spent most of her feats on crafting. Obviously, they had a reasonably good source of custom magic items once that was in play.

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We may not have an official announcement but that doesn't mean we are totally lacking all information. According to an interview:

ENWorld, August 26, 2014 wrote:

Yea I was going to ask about that [PDF sales]…

You know we haven’t announced anything official yet, but I’d be surprised if we released the PDF to be exactly as the book. Because I think that we’ll sit down and look at a PDF format of the book and say well what’s the best format that could take? It really does make good sense to have it sort of stripped down and in a utilitarian layout.

Because you know what? I’m actually just using this because I just want to get some rules at the table. Maybe I just want to be on a plane or just sitting around and want a quick reference that’s a quick read and just the information I want. So what does that do to the [PDF] design? We strip out a lot of the art and make it utilitarian. Or we break it up and actually the ebook version is actually three books, we’ve broken it up into three parts, and each topic is now a separate book. So maybe I’m playing a Wizard, and I’m just using the Basic D&D, but I want more spells… so I’m just wanting the spell chapters, so maybe I spend 5 bucks or 2 bucks just so I have that indexed or bookmarked and can quickly reference my spells. You know, what is the usefulness of that? Just as a bibliophile wants the whole book as a physical artifact, the digital only user, well, what is the best way for them to get access to the game.

So there is nothing concrete yet, but those are just some of the possibilities being discussed?

Yea exactly. Especially with the Dungeonscape Tool that Trapdoor [Technologies] is working on, and how they are going to approach things and what features they are going to have, could that kinda feed that need? Because we asked that it be iOS, Android, PC, so maybe you can just download the app and then buy the say Fighter packet and however we’re breaking it down, so are we really going to need to sell a separate PDF because actually the best way is to buy the tool, and the tool is also populating my database and I can make characters, then maybe I just don’t necessarily need the PDF. So a lot of it is just trying to figure out where things are with what they’re [Trapdoor Technologies] is doing, and we just don’t want to rush into something and then you’re like but I just bought the PDF and then the tools came out, and now I’m paying twice for the same content, that would make you upset. So it’s really just figuring out what is the best thing for the gaming audience at this point.

Nothing "official" but enough to infer that PDFs aren't on the immediate horizon. And for those groups who prefer the electronic format but want to get playing 5e as soon as possible, that's an inconvenience, so I can understand the grumble.

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Emmanuel Nouvellon-Pugh wrote:


This what?

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Diego Rossi wrote:

Casting Purify food and drink is enough to make it kosher?

I wouldn't think so. Process is extremely important. Taking something processed in a non-kosher manner and using magic to purify it doesn't change the process involved.

Now, purifying the food/drink could be an important part of the process...

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You may notice that diplomacy says it enables characters to change the attitudes of non-player characters. It doesn't say you can change the attitude of the other PCs - for that you need to succeed on your real life diplomacy and powers of persuasion.

That doesn't mean that diplomacy, bluff, and other skills aren't useful in portraying how the PCs perceive each other. A good diplomacy check here might lead a GM to tell the moonshiner that "the other character makes a passionate argument that distilling that alcohol will make Baby Erastil cry that you find emotionally moving, bringing an unbidden tear to your own eye - but the choice is, of course, up to you."

And I still don't understand how copying a recipe for poteen would be evil.

Piper Hemlock wrote:


He writes to Habe. 'As far as I know, he's been like this since mom died giving birth to me. You said that he's been getting worse. I saw him before my team went into the marsh to deal with the goblins. He wasn't rambling about some Great Fall. Any theories about the drastic shift from hurting me to hurting everyone?'

"It could be a brain fever. It could be your return from Absalom has reactivated and accelerated the mental deterioration that started with the unresolved grief he held for your mother. Not that you should blame yourself for this," Habe is quick to clarify. "But I am interested to see how he reacts fully sequestered from any outside reference to you. I intend to keep Vincent well isolated and see where we can go from there."

"And, rumor has it you will be leaving the area for a little while. That seems to me an auspcious sign for this new stage in Vincent's treatment. A new separation that should help me untangle the emotional knots bound up by your shared past. Good luck to you in your journeys."

Habe concludes his business with Sheriff Hemlock with the orderlies and constables securing Vincent in the sanitarium.

The sheriff sighs "Well. There he is, Piper. Doctor Habe will be sending me regular reports. I will collect them for you so you can see how Vincent is doing when you get back from your errand north, if you wish."

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Obligation? Nah, obligation is for lawful types. But as a CG character, your PC probably should want to help save people. That's what good characters do, willingly.

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It looks to me, from the boards I frequent, some people are still fighting the previous edition war.

Piper Hemlock wrote:

'Doctor Habe. A pleasure to meet you. I'm Piper Hemlock, the Sheriff's adopted son and Vincent's actual son.' He turns to Vincent before continuing. 'Hopefully, you can get him some measure of peace. I don't know if this will help, but when we picked him up for the transfer, he mentioned something called the 'Great Fall'. I find it strange because he's never mentioned it until now. I do have some theories about what he means. The Earthfall that destroyed the Azlanti and the Thassilonian. Some other apocalypse connected to a cult. Maybe the Old Ones or Groteus.'

Habe perks up at Piper's writing. "Ah, so you are the 'infamous' boy at the heart of Vincent's madness. I have heard a great deal about you, none of it flattering, I'm afraid - at least not as Vincent's tells me. But I have hopes that we may yet find a root to his madness and offer both of you some relief."

At the mention of the 'Great Fall', Habe nods, "His references have been growing darker and more grandiose of late. He no longer dreams of hurting just you, but also of hurting and killing many more. I believe whatever the cause of his condition, it is growing to a point that it will be revealed, and once revealed, I hope to treat it aggressively and thoroughly. I should not expect it to actually be related to the ancient Earthfall. I believe it is imagery he has latched on to as a reflection of an interior darkness."

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Rynjin wrote:
Wizards aren't good because they can do everything all day every day, they're good because they can potentially (with a realistic potential) do just about anything in a single class. There is a spell for (almost literally) EVERYTHING, and many spells actually do things better than skills (EX: Spider Climb, Fly vs Climb).

I might point out that this potential underlines the fact that it's a matter of choice in how the player wants to play the wizard. He could fill a niche that no other player has chosen to play - he's got that potential. Or, if a niche is filled, choose to devote his resources to another one.

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KingmanHighborn wrote:

I voted Star Wars, but really you could drop the Force and lightsaber stuff as it BORED me. I liked Star Wars cause there was so many cool places to go, races in universe, and the ships.

For me, the Force and the Jedi are what make Star Wars really distinctive as a space opera setting. And I don't mean the superhumanic BS that appeared in Attack of the Clones/Revenge of the Sith. I'm talking about the mystical philosophy and modestly defined powers of the original trilogy.

"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship."

That's one of my favorite passages of the whole series of movies, particularly the line in bold. Star Wars without that loses half its character.

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KingmanHighborn wrote:

But see I love Trek too as long as it's not Shatner. (TOS is fine just I don't like Shatner's take on Kirk.) I grew up with TNG and loved it, as I loved the politics and 'feel' of it.

But then there was DS9 and I hated it, it was soooooooo BOOOOORRRRRINGGG! Nothing happened until the Dominion stuff started up otherwise it was Space CSI.

Voyager was the best of the best, crème de le crème series. As they had no Federation support. (Many times Enterprise had to go in for repairs or even complete rebuilds with a competent captain like Picard at the helm.)

It's like I've found my polar opposite here on the boards. I'll dub you my Bizarro Bill Dunn and you can dub me your Bizarro KingmanHighborn.

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Jaçinto wrote:

You are joking about the JJ movies being the best Trek films right? Into Darkness was ranked the worst Trek Movie of all time. Heck, ignoring nostalgia, I actually got extremely mad at the movie within the first few scenes. That movie, if you paid attention to all the plot points and followed its story structure and pacing, made no sense whatsoever.

Ranked as the worst Trek movie (which means worse than Star Trek 5!) by whom?!? Frankly, I find it hard to believe that would have been the outcome of a broad poll of Star Trek fans.

The constables initially startle at Vincent's sudden activity but when it comes to naught, there's a bit of nervous laughter. "Steady," Sheriff Hemlock calls out.

A quintet of men await the cart and its charge at the entrance to the sanitarium. Four burly orderlies flank a thinner, bespectacled man wearing a white tunic. "Welcome, Sheriff. How is our patient today."

Belor answers "He is a bit frisky, Doctor. Be wary."

"We deal with patients in the throws of lunacy and other afflictions of the mind on a regular basis. I am confident we can handle this one as well."

And with that, they begin unloading Vincent.

Alara, it turns out, is reasonably well-versed in the lore of the Earthfall as it relates to Varisia and the elven peoples. While her lineage is mainly from another continent and thus not directly affected, word has traveled among the elves that a great portion of the local elven folk managed to avoid the destruction caused by the Earthfall by retreating from the whole realm of Golarion. That had the negative effect of leaving many of their historical lands open for resettlement over the following millennia after the cataclysm, something that has made for difficult community relations as the elves have since begun trying to reclaim their lost lands.

Alara has also heard rumors via the elven folk that a much more recent conspiracy may have attempted to recreate the Earthfall over Varisia, but that threat has evidently been broken up (for details, consider the Second Darkness AP - something we are treating as history for this AP).

How exactly any of this might relate to Vincent's ravings is unclear...

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Squiggit wrote:

Which has literally nothing to do with the point at all, so I'm not even sure why you're saying it. You don't need a to have "constant one-upmanship" for a wizard to be better than a rogue. Nevermind that, again, saying that the wizard can just play down at the rogue's level doesn't change the fact that that's a conscious choice on the player's part and therefore only highlights the issue.

It's not a question of "playing down at the rogue's level". It's more a question of choosing to focus on something else rather than the rogue's jobs within the party.

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Set wrote:

Still, what I said upthread, especially for the core movie / TV show properties holds true for me. Farmboys can be heroes (in both cases), but only if they are the son of a queen and midichlorian Jesus in Star Wars universe. Trek always felt like the heroes were more working class and egalitarian, with 100% less 'space princesses.' (Although Picard flew against that, seeming pretty aristocratic...)

I agree that the Trek characters do seem a bit more... mundane than Star Wars characters. But then the shows and movies tend to focus less on their "lives" than on what they do in their occupations (allowing for brief, episodic vignettes exploring aspects of a character's hobbies or interests like Riker's jazz trombone/cooking, Data's music and art, Bev Crusher's dancing, and Troi's mother issues). By comparison, the whole farm boy to hero journey is all about the transformation of an entire life. Trek is the heroism of normal people in crisis situations. Star Wars is about growing into the hero.

And as far as Picard's manners, Patrick Stewart's acting training seems to both work for and against him. His behavior and speech are very captainish and inspiring in that context. But they really don't seem to match Picard's history that seems to lurch between academic pursuits and roughhousing. Of course, they don't match Stewart's history of Yorkshire poverty and domestic violence either which just goes to show just how awesome his achievements as an actor and all-around humanitarian really are.

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DrDeth wrote:

Nice idea, but too many players, according to posts I have read here on these boards, would never hear of it. Team work is worthless they say, it's all about solo power. The fact that you have a Sorc in the party who is willing and able to cast T-port is meaningless everyone NEEDS to be able to teleport on his very ow nor the class is worthless.

This usually strikes me as a jealousy or competitiveness issue. I've seen it a lot, in recent years, characterized by "protagonism" and "agency" issues. The spellcasters' reality bending powers set the agenda for the game and martial characters don't get nice thing. These are all focused on what one player can do with his PC that another player cannot do with his.

But I don't see it that way. Who sets the agenda for the game? Is it a spellcaster acting as dictator or do the players have reasonably equal input? If the former, why are they playing with the jerk? And if it's the latter, then the spellcaster doesn't really have more agency, rather, his powers are at the service of the group and it doesn't really matter if it's Joe's PC who is pushing the button - he's pushing it for all of us.

Now, maybe I'm spoiled by being part of groups that have played together with relatively few changes in spans measured by decades rather than months or even years. Most of the competitiveness that comes up between players is done for role playing purposes.

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Irontruth wrote:

If the vendor's only purpose is to be a source of war movies and historical documents, why would they have Nazi fetish porn?

Or women's underwear with sexual innuendo?
Or work shirts with Nazi symbology on them?
Or a t-shirt a U-boat and nazi eagle on the front, with a list of 10 U-boat commanders with the most kills on the back?
Or a t-shirt with a U-boat on the front and a list of ships by tonnage that were sunk on the back?

Why? For the same reason vendors at Gen Con also sell anime porn, Starfleet fezzes, fetishy corsets, and vaguely rapey role-playing games like Vampire: the Masquerade - to make a buck catering to the interests of the con-goers even if they drift a bit from the mainstream.

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Now, reading over their website a little, I'm inclined to believe there actually is some Nazi sympathizing going on there (Who the hell refers to Gilliam's Baron Munchausen as a remake of a Goebells film?)...but I couldn't prove it,

Goebbels may have commissioned the production of the 1943 version of Munchhausen, but a Hungarian directory named Baky actually made it and dodged politics in doing so (apparently to great success as people were looking for a diversion from the bad news on the Soviet front).

But as far as being a remake, it seems to have clearly influenced Gilliam's version according to this blog on the Munchausen films: PSYCHEDELICATESSEN. So calling it a remake? Bit of a strong term, more like influenced some of the forms and scenes. But evidence of whoever posted that on the Belle and Blade site is Nazi sympathizing? That's a pretty tenuous argument too.

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Irontruth wrote:

This is the GenCon vendor map from 2014.

Note the second column, 5th one down: Belle and Blade.

So, after complaints were made LAST YEAR about these guys. They were allowed to come back.

I don't want to link directly too them. I don't think Paizo deserves links to these guys on their website. But here are some things for sale:

- Triumph of the Will
- baseball caps with swastikas on them
- a work shirt with a Death's Head emblem with the words "Gott mit uns" common Nazi imagery from the period
- Nazi fetish porn

Neither the work shirt or baseball cap are authentic to the WW2 period, but rather reflect more modern designs of clothing. They are not intended to be historical recreations.

Their website is pretty easy to find if you search Belle and Blade.

So, now I've shown that his article DOES contain evidence. I suppose you could try to argue that Nazi fetish porn isn't racist and deserves to be at GenCon.

And, having seen the booth, I'd say that most of what it is about is movies, movies, and more movies that a lot of people are interested in. Overall, the booth was a lot less offensive than a lot of the manga/anime art ones that were very teen porny.

It's possible that anybody who investigated thought that the complaints were largely minimal compared to the overall focus of the booth. I've also seen a response from Gen Con staff that they told Bell and Blade to not display the underwear. And other posts suggest that they were no longer on prominent display - though were still for sale. And that parallels what went on with the anime porn. One booth in 2013 had the art posted high up at the top of their booth so it could be seen for some distance. Clearly someone complained since after that opening morning the racier stuff had been lowered to be within the booth itself.

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Nicos wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:

There's no point if grousing about it. Not all games are going to enable all concepts out of the box and that's OK.
A dexterous character who wields a rapier is really iconic character concept. It is a failure that hte game do not support that concept (well, perhaps it does now with the ACG, not sure).

Funny, I can make a dexterous character who wields a rapier just fine in PF. He doesn't do as much damage as the greataxe wielding barbarian, but I'm fine with that. Damage isn't everything.

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Suichimo wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
Seems to me a LOT of people complain about the system as it is. Complaints about not enough dex-to-damage options just up your strength if you really want to melee THAT badly

And if that is against your concept?

Then you've got a few choices to make:

1) house rule it with willing GM and players
2) accept your concept can only be approximated with the rules you've got and do the best you can
3) play a game in which that concept can be achieved like Mutants and Masterminds or some other system
4) change your concept

There's no point if grousing about it. Not all games are going to enable all concepts out of the box and that's OK.

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Abraham spalding wrote:

You cannot give consent while drunk.

Consent must be obtained or the act is forced.

Drunk has a legal definition. Consent has a legal definition, and you cannot consent while drunk. If you do not have consent then the act is not willing.

Unfortunately, even the link you provide is ambiguous on the issue. First it says you can't legally consent when intoxicated then it qualifies it with the term "too drunk". That's a problem and it will continue to be a problem for quite a while.

There are a lot of people who willingly have drunk sex and the law should not define that as rape. Yet there is a point of being so drunk that any consent given should be suspect. But that line can be very difficult to detect, even in cases when people know each other pretty well.

In any event, we should probably drop this particular line of discussion. It won't be resolved here.

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mechaPoet wrote:
4) All of that said, the reason I brought this up in the first place is because of the part where Correia mocks George for not feeling represented in gaming. George outlines what internalized racism looks like: even in a fantasy world, George can imagine fighting orcs more easily than he can imagine a non-white character for himself. This isn't an issue of George's lack of imagination; it's the result of a culture that tells him what's normal/normative for a medieval fantasy setting is that everyone is white. The narratives present in both our history and much of our pop culture about medieval/renaissance Europe has erased the history of PoC. It is affected by the other racist narratives in our culture, and affects them in turn in a vicious cycle that has made people like George feel like he doesn't have a voice or a place in the usual cultural narrative. Even when he tries to branch out and make characters of color, it's unhelpful and discouraging when people ask him if he's trying to make a statement or send a message by doing that. And for Correia to mock George and dismiss his feelings on this is a dick move. Making a half-orc with green skin isn't the same as making a character with brown or black skin, because no one is going to call you out on "message fiction" for playing a half-orc. This is a racist action--please note that I'm not saying anything about Correia's character or his ~*~innermost soul as a human being~*~, just pointing to this particular action as racist and rude. Maybe Correia wasn't bothered by not seeing himself represented in fantasy games (or, for many PoC, almost all media), or maybe he did feel represented (which is a tricky feeling to identify, because it's the feeling of being "normal" when you engage with any form of media with characters). So, you know, that's cool for him, but he's being a huge a!%$%*! about it to George and dismissing what is a serious and widespread problem. Admittedly, it is one that Paizo art tries to address, which is awesome, and which the latest edition of D&D is trying to do as well (I got a chance to flip through it, and the example pictures for the human, fighter, and wizard are all black). But for Correia to dismiss his concerns is exactly the opposite of what he praises Paizo for trying to do! So is Correia white? It seems like he doesn't identify as such, and if he experiences racism directed toward him for being non-white Portuguese, then that's s*%!ty. However, he also says some s~+@ty racist stuff in his response article, and that's just not acceptable.

Even if someone were to agree with you on this or take George at his word, there's still a gap between experiencing racism away from gaming to the point it affects your early forays into gaming and even having a racist incident at a local gaming table and projecting that onto the whole community and Gen Con. And I'd say it's an even bigger gap now than it would have been in the early days of gaming since there are major companies including diverse characters in their art, some for over a decade. The environment for attracting diversity in gaming - whether it's ethnic/racial diversity or gender/sexual preference diversity - is pretty much the best it has ever been thanks to companies like WotC and Paizo.

But at some point, people have to realize it's not gaming that doesn't afford people options. Gaming has no inherent horizon (though local groups may have their own limits and limitations). If George thinks gaming didn't or doesn't afford him those options, it's because he didn't (and maybe still doesn't) reach for them. Maybe he feels like an outsider - as a minority, that's understandable. But being an outsider doesn't make the experience inherently racist nor does he become an insider by choosing to distance himself from the community or events.

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thejeff wrote:

So, more to the point of the argument would you say that the experience of the experience of Spanish immigrants to the US is essentially the same as Mexican immigrants? They face the same kinds of discrimination? Both in the first and successive generation?

Because that's the distinction that Hispanic(White) and Hispanic(not-white) draws.

Or would the experience of that Spanish immigrant and his descendants be closer to a Polish immigrant and his? Both likely to face discrimination, but both considered white and not dealing with the same level that people of color face, especially after the first generation.

I expect there's going to be a lot of regional variation. Spanish immigrant coming to Arizona - or really anywhere in territory that used to be Mexico - probably have an experience much like a Mexican immigrant. Then, in successive generations, there's probably a good chance having a name that sounds Mexican will lead a lot of people to make assumptions that they're Mexican-American rather than Spanish-American.

Fun little aside. Remember when some people got all up in arms about Benedict Cumberbatch being cast as Khan in Star Trek: Into Darkness? There were complaints about whitewashing Khan. Here's even a blog post from someone at Tor Books about giving a person of color's part to a white guy: The Perfect Retcon to Star Trek: Into Darkness.

But here's the rub. If a Spanish immigrant to the US wouldn't be a person of color, neither was Ricardo Montalban both of whose parents immigrated to Mexico from Spain. They're assuming Montalban was a person of color because he was Mexican, had an awesome accent, and had a good tan. Or... they understood that being a PoC isn't necessarily about obvious skin tones or technical racial origin but being part of an ethnicity/race that's not necessarily treated as being white.

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Chengar Qordath wrote:

That's actually one of the main reasons I'm not a huge fan of how the Big Six items work in Pathfinder. The Big Six are very much expected and ordinary. It's hard to get excited about getting another +1, but sooner or later you need those bonuses just to survive.

Magic items that let you do something new and interesting are far more exciting than ones that just add flat numerical bonuses. Problem is, Pathfinder is very much a numbers game; no matter how good your tactics are and what creative solutions you come up with, eventually dice are going to be rolled.

You generally need some of those items to thrive, sure. But you don't need all of them, nor do all of the ones you have need to be maxed out. Yet all 6 of these are part of the Big 6 because, necessary or not, they are very valuable compared to most other magic items. Their benefits are consistent, easy to calculate, hard to forget about, and relatively cheap. For those reasons, they kick the butt of many if not most conditional-use items, like rings of shooting stars, which are generally sold off at first opportunity to get one of the Big 6.

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Maccabee wrote:
I loved Pathfinder as is. Then I started reading these forums. I've liked it less and less ever since. Less to do with the system, more to do with some of the types of people attracted to this type of system.

I can understand this leading to having contempt for fellow gamers (I have plenty of that myself thanks to my online participation here and other message boards), but I don't think I have ever let it affect my ability to like a game...

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Caineach wrote:
Oh banning it because it is an accurate military uniform is a legitimate reason, as long as that gets applied evenly. It's not a rule I think should be there because of inclusion or anything like it. There is the legal requirement that US military uniforms not be accurate in movies. Not wanting to be afoul of that is a good reason to have that rule.

Back in the 1980s, when I first noticed an earlier version of that rule, it was also possible to encounter gaming veterans of 20th century wars. So, there was still good reason to avoid letting people dressing as their comrades or their adversaries.

Notice, however, that civil war uniforms are fair game now as are plenty of European imperial troops - despite the likely racist connotations some of them could have.

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Caineach wrote:

Entirely true, except that part where you called me a racist. If you want to do that, at least point out something I've said that is racist.

I still don't think dressing as a nazi at gencon is intately inappropriate.

It is because all 20th-21st century military uniforms are prohibited - unless they're a current soldier's uniform.

That said, if you're playing WWII wargames on the German side, I don't think anybody would object to wearing an officer's cap or an Iron Cross to set the mood. Most of the gamers at that table would probably be more interested in the story of those items than take offense.

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thejeff wrote:

My stance is and remains that he claims incorrectly to be a Person of Color to mock and dismiss racial discrimination. If he experienced discrimination as a 2nd generation immigrant, which is quite possible, and he actually used those experiences in his argument, that would be one thing. But he doesn't. He doesn't talk about any such experiences. He just claims the PoC flag and he does so without justification.

Again - discovered he was (legally) Latino circa 2009. Is of European (Portuguese) descent. Latinos, in this usage, can be either White or several varieties of not-white. European qualifies as white.

I disagree. Saturday Night Live may have used the idea in a joke back when Dukakis and Bush were running for President but it's true - some Europeans are "whiter" than others. Some benefit from white privilege more than others. Not all Europeans qualify as being white in the same way - a lot of southern Europeans can tell you that. I can tell you it's well understood by Portuguese friends of mine - particularly in New England where they make up a substantial immigrant community the long-standing WASPs there don't much like (that Manhattan clam chowder? It's not from Manhattan - it's New England Portuguese - talk about "othering", they had to say it was from somewhere else to be sufficiently insulting and exclusionary).

George, in his attempt to show Gen Con's insensitivity to the issue, made a similar mistake by using the term PoC superficially as if race relations were binary. They're not.

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GreyWolfLord wrote:

I actually did point out quite a number of the posts to Paizo...they did not take action.

Clearly, you're not getting what Scott Betts was saying. He was, I think, prodding you to identify what posts or statements you thought were racist and defend them in this thread. And until you do, I don't think many of us are really going to understand what you think were racist statements.

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We should really leave the feds and the census out of this. Neither has any definitive bearing on how person/people of color is actually used.

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LazarX wrote:

He's been there, I've been there several times as both player and GM. You by your own admission haven't been there ever. Are you open to the possibility that the conclusion you've reached is at least partly due to the fact that it's what you WANT to believe?

I've been going since 1983 and I'd have a hard time saying Gen Con was racist. The fact that the hobby is mostly white may be the legacy of a society divided by racism but that hardly makes Gen Con racist or the racial differences a problem that Gen Con must address. Large concentrations of mostly white people are not inherently racist experiences.

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Kittyburger wrote:


Correia has a pattern of bigotry and of denying the impact of bigotry when reported by other people.

I'm amused by the fact that calling out a pattern of actual behavior by the man in question is being called "character assassination." "Character assassination" would be if the claimed pattern of behavior were false - it isn't.

Whether he's a bigot or not, using that as an argument that his post is wrong or valueless is still argumentum ad hominem rather than actually interacting with the post. Granted, Correia does some of that as well with his social justice warrior stuff, but not all of his post descends to that level. Something I regrettably can't say about every post in this thread...

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thejeff wrote:
Ignoring that the actual complaint was that a store selling Nazi themed paraphernalia wasn't being addressed per official policy.

That's assuming that it is clearly against policy. There are terms about being offensive and bad taste as well as some specifics about excessive gore (also frequently ignored), but offense and bad taste are quite often in the eye of the beholder.

There are a lot of options for people to find offense at Gen Con depending on what gets under their skin. But the impact of any one of them is actually pretty minimal in a sea of hundreds of exhibitors, hundreds of cosplayers, and 50,000 attendees.

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Kittyburger wrote:

Indeed. Correia's best buds with Theodore "Vox Day" Beale, who is a virulent racist, sexist, and homophobe (I'm fairly sure trans people Don't Exist in Beale's world). Your friends inform who you are, and Beale's a LOT of information. Even without Beale, there's plenty of sexist, homophobic and transphobic commentary from Correia out there.

Correia's been dismissive a lot of women's science fiction, of LGBT science fiction, of science fiction of people of color, of non-American science fiction (lumping all of them together as "message fiction" - ignoring the fact that all fiction is supposed to send a message), so the pattern is pretty well-established showing him to be a pretty big flaming bigot regardless of any use or nonuse of slurs.

None of this actually gets at the specific Tor Books blog post vs response post by Corriea, though. You don't like some of his other positions, statements, and associations... but what about the topic at hand?

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Diffan wrote:
For me, it basically comes down to this: What does D&D-Next do that other systems don't? I've struggled with that question since 2012 when they announced they were in the process of creating a new edition. And through ALL the playtests I've run and the games we've played, I still cannot answer it well enough.

So far, the game offers sufficient answers. It's a version of D&D that includes some elements of recent editions while having the speed and openness of 1e/2e.

As much as I love Pathfinder, having a less dense option is quite attractive. There may be other games in that niche like C&C, but I only just got the PH for that via the reprint Kickstarter so it doesn't have much of a headstart against 5e with me. And 5e has, so far, been easier to get into. Plus, 5e is virtually guaranteed to have a much bigger network of players.

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mechaPoet wrote:

2. Glad to know that you don't find me credible for using a term that I've explained several times and provided helpful explanatory links to. Unless you're just talking about some other "people whose tires aren't flat" and not yourself????

I have to say that the article by Gina Crosley-Corcoran is particularly helpful since it also focuses on the intersectionality that people experience with overlapping fields of privilege/lack of privilege. I had read it before and thought it was quite well done.

But I'd say George and his blog post still needs to go from the fact that white privilege has had an effect on the racial makeup of Gen Con attendees compared to that of the Indiana Convention Center employees and "Houston, we have a problem." And he isn't doing so.

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GreyWolfLord wrote:

Mr. Correia actually appears to be white. He seems to be ignorant of what WHITE actually is. Latinos and Hispanics are minorities, but technically, they have been considered white for the past century in the US.

Now, obviously, that may not be true in some people's eyes...but even in South America there tend to be racism...and yes...there are Hispanics (such as Portuguese and Spaniards direct descendants...and even German descendants) that are directly as white as you can get...whereas there are others which are more akin to the relations you may see from a Native American.

There's a reason being Latino or Hispanic, though a minority, does not instantly say you are a the term lets stop confusing the term.

The US census bureau has divided them into different categories, so it's possible to be Hispanic and Black, or Hispanic and being Hispanic does not necessarily mean you are a PoC.

With Latino, it's even LESS defining as a person of Color. Latinos come from any nation that speaks a Romance (language derived from Latin) Language...hence France and Italy and Spain.

In the US, it is more specific, and specified than Hispanic, in that it refers to those from Latin America. In that sense, one would assume Mr. Correia is from Latin America...but being from Latin America is no more defining as a Person of Color than being from the US defines you as such.

I'm guessing you haven't heard of a lot of people being stopped by traffic cops for DWH (Driving while Hispanic). A friend of mine basically gets stopped for it - he's Portuguese-American.

While he may not technically be a "person of color", he's not exactly white and brimming with white privilege either.

Ultimately, I think this is actually serving Mr. Corriea's point - that use of the term POC can end up being divisive and tinged with racism. It has been a while since I attended grad school but the uses it was put to there in the 1990s had me thinking it was another version of Jim Crow thinking - just from a different perspective. It was disturbing to come to that realization that the people bandying the term about in their identity-politics stands were using the same kinds of criteria to label someone a person of color as the Jim Crow supporters were using to keep people away from the white privilege of sitting at the front of the bus or eating at the lunch counter.

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ShinHakkaider wrote:

Yeah I've never understood the whole "getting pissed at the developers" thing. I dont know, maybe I come from a different era but when we were playing D&D back in the day, when we came across a rule or something that we didnt like or want to use? We just changed it or didnt use it.
We didnt get hot at designers or call them out in Dragon Magazine. We were more concerned about playing our game. And that's it.

I don't understand getting mad either. I do understand some frustration, though, when a FAQ answer is unclear or needs clarification that only seems to come after a messageboard brouhaha breaks out. I'd prefer it if more FAQ entries included a developer-perspective rationale for the interpretation. The two-handed weapon + two-weapon fighting ban needed clarification and I think none of the ensuing messageboard discussion has filtered back up to the rule clarification. That is frustrating.

I think one reason we tend to see more testiness is because of the immediacy of the internet. Multiple exchanges can occur and sentiments build up over the course of a few hours. With Dragon, exchanges took weeks and that's a lot calmer.

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mechaPoet wrote:

-Do some of your own research into the intersection of race and gaming. Some of you seem very hesitant to believe anecdotal evidence of racism. There are a lot of people with anecdotal experience of racism; how many does it take for it to become "statistics"? This is mean to be less of a zen koan along the lines of "How many grains of rice does it take to be a pile?" and more of an encouragement to seek out this accounts on your own. When you find them, please take them seriously. And if you find yourself objecting to things that are said on the grounds that they are "not really racist," or getting offended that something you do is considered racist, please take a minute to consider those social privileges you possess. Give them the benefit of the doubt. Do more research.

The fact that people have had experiences in gaming that are affected by racism doesn't necessarily make the assertion that there is a racial problem at Gen Con true. Taking George at face value in his blog post, he clearly has had a problem with racism in his gaming life. If he can't play a black character, or a character of any ethnicity or race under the game's sun, he's clearly experiencing a problem. And, just as clearly, for those of us familiar with the Rashomon Effect, those experiences will affect his perceptions of the reality around him - including his Gen Con experience.

But the perceptions of one person don't necessarily mean there's a problem that can or needs to be addressed. To shift to another psychological lexicon, he may be projecting his own problematic view on a situation that doesn't warrant it.

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mechaPoet wrote:
People keep picking at this, and I think it's important to note that this observation is part of a brief preamble. The problem isn't in George's "argument," the problem is treating every bit of George's article with over-intense scrutiny. Here's what I read in that part: George goes to GenCon as a non-white person and sees two populations, the convention-goers and the convention staff. The racial make up of these two groups (and probably both are fairly large considering the popularity of the Con) is disproportionate, with a greater percentage of the people who have and act on their access to the Con being white and a greater percentage of the staff being non-white. All he says is that it makes him feel uncomfortable, and reminds him of "ye olde racist times." Feel free to (re?)visit the articles I posted about privilege, and consider how our racist past and present might contribute to this racial disparity.

But I think this is where Corriea's criticism of George's blog post is at its best. He explains quite well that the disparity isn't Gen Con's issue - and it really isn't. George was, as far as I can tell, reacting emotionally without trying to understand why there's this particular disparity and, frankly, that's kind of shallow.

mechaPoet wrote:
Literally nowhere does he say GenCon is racist. He says there is a "Race Problem," and describes some ways in which he feels excluded.

I think you're being far too generous. What kind of response can George expect from Gen Con organizers or attendees if he says "There's a race problem here"? How can it not imply that he feels racism is at work at Gen Con and that Gen Con bears some responsibility for it?

mechaPoet wrote:
But here's the real meat of the issue: it doesn't matter whether his article has "rational arguments" or is "too emotional." He identifies some things he didn't like and provides some suggestions of how to make GenCon more inclusive. He doesn't owe anyone a "logical" argument for inclusion. Part of white privilege is not seeing the discomfort of non-white groups who feel underrepresented in a given community. Having white privilege doesn't mean you're being evil and ignoring it, it means you literally don't see it. When George writes about feeling out of place at GenCon, the proper response shouldn't be, "Prove it!" There are a lot of people asking for more inclusion in the gaming community, and it's there if you look for it and listen to those voices. The burden of proof is not on George here.

Not so. As the person making the statement that there's a race problem as opposed to a racial disparity (not all disparities are truly problematic), he's got to show that there is a problem. And I'm not sure that one uncomfortable person, as far as we know, rises to the level of a problem. His experience is an anecdote and we don't have enough information on other people's experiences to know if he's having a common reaction to Gen Con or an outlying idiosyncratic reaction. If it's the former, then we may have a problem (and I think Corriea is right that a lot of game companies have come a long way on this topic - making games more attractive for American racial minorities and women) that can be addressed, but if it's the latter, the onus for finding a solution is on the blog poster alone.

I also disagree that white privilege means white people can't see the issues. It just means we aren't directly subject to them. A white (Irish-American) friend of mine can certainly see that her Portuguese-American husband gets stopped a lot more by traffic cops than she does and gets hassled by the cops more than she does. But having more white privilege than he has, she's not subject to the same treatment. She can see it just fine. It would be a misconception to say that people can't see their privilege (whatever flavor of privilege they have in a situation).

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