Benoist Poiré's page

P.S. I almost wrote "Melf's" there...

Hi there Cosmo,

Could you please cancel my Pathfinder Adventure Path and Pathfinder Companion subscriptions, please?

Thank you!

Some styles are more conducive than others to making sure that the other people playing have fun, too. Someone might enjoy a game where you take turns picking up the only game piece (a wooden plank) and hitting each other upside the head with it, but that doesn't mean it makes for a good game.

*shrug*

Nothing new under the sun.

The Points of Light theme would have been perfect for a new setting, allowing WotC to create new "Point Locations" in products as they came out.

But, what do I know.

Benoist Poiré wrote:

Hi there.

My Order #1170556's payment was delayed when it was due. Now, it is "pending" since ... April 30 or so.

Should I do something to process the order, is it stuck? Thank you!

I tried re-processing the order and ran into the same error as before. If you would like, I can move these books to ship with your next subscription shipment?

Thanks,
cos

Thank you!
Benoist

Hi there.

My Order #1170556's payment was delayed when it was due. Now, it is "pending" since ... April 30 or so.

Should I do something to process the order, is it stuck? Thank you!

A specific breakdown of high-level game play, with the usual suspects breaking the game for most people (teleport, buffs and how to practically handle them, mord's disjunction, find the path and similar low-level plot killers, etc.), as well as ways to handle them, explaining how the game play itself changes from low-level games, will go a LONG way towards tailoring DMs expectations and confidence, and thus preventing most of the issues people were complaining about with 3.5 high-level games.

Please include this in there. The DMG was sorely lacking in this department.

This thread seems to be showing signs of moving away from friendly discussion, so maybe people need to remind themselves of where in the forums this thread is posted?

Crap not, that your threads be not crapped upon.

Scott we know on the boards that Pax is shall we say "pro-3e" (and earlier), as we know that you are "4e can do no wrong".

But... what am I saying! We ALSO know Scott can't help but flame threads he perceives as flames versus "the edition which can do no wrong", therefore making pretty much all the pseudo-conversations he participates in ten times worse than they otherwise would have been. I also suspect he takes an immense pleasure in doing this, since he keeps doing it over, and over, and yet over again, year after year after year.
Yup. Definitely no surprise here.

Aawww... shoot. I may be in the minority but I liked the set pieces.

What I absolutely do not care about (and I understand I very well may be in the minority here) is the fiction. If I want to read a piece of fiction I buy a book. In a role-playing game product I want role-playing game materials. Not pieces of fiction.

FATAL beats all.
/thread

Really.

I preordered the PF RPG a long time ago, and never regreted it. I am eagerly awaiting the final version of the game, and then will run Ptolus once more.

Well, this is it. Im trying out 4th edition. This summer, with my little brother and his friends. My own little campaign set in ustalav. The general theme is going to be vampire hunting/general monster hunting. But, I'm finding myself a little stymied, in terms of monsters. I just dont have a good feel for the realities of Ustalav.

I understand varisia top to bottom. Trolls and giants in the mountains. Goblins on the coast. Horrible things skulking in the thassilonian tombs. The occasional elder thing from beyond reality. Frog-men and body snatchers.

But what exactly is ustalav like? It seems civilized and settled; there are cities and towns aplenty, with only a few things like haunted castles and some messed up stuff around gallowspire. But beyond that, I dont know. Is the place really overrun with vampires? If you walk down the road, how likely is it that a wraith or zombie will eat your face? What are the towns like? It seems to be kind of caught in a stagnat time period compared to the rest of avistan.

How much of a problem are the Orcs of Belkzen? Are there bandits? Is there a militia, or an army? Something about the cities description reminds me of 1600s germany, or regency england (or at least be blackadder portrayal thereof. Or at least, the damn romantic poets lounging about)

Numeria is right next door. Do gearmen, the Technic League, or barbarians with lazers crop up alot?

I'm just having a hard time trying to justify 4th edition's assumed playstyle with the setting I want to use.

Any thoughs?

You might listen to your players feedback, or let the setting detail itself as need be through actual play and come up with stuff on the fly that you keep track of on a notebook, or you might fish like here for some opinions on the web and then detail the setting top to bottom between sessions, but my bottom line is this: make Ustalav your setting. Answer the questions according to your own tastes, needs, wants and imagination. The campaign will be better for it.

System VS. Setting?

This really is a false dichotomy in my mind. It just doesn't compute with me. I guess that each game product is its own beast in the matter. Some products will be defined by the mechanics they use (RoleMaster), while others will push a setting to define them (Serenity RPG).

There are no rules in that respect but what each game product is built for and used for in the first place. You can take apart a product, and at some point, it won't be how the product was first intended to be used, but that point will vary in specifics each and every single time, with each and every single user, probably.

In the case of Matthew Finch - he has created a derivative work already of original D&D. While I have not yet included it in this discussion, you may wish to check it out (and please report back here on your findings!!) I'd like to hear if it meets your needs. Just check out www.swordsandwizardry.com

In the case of the original game - Matthew Finch has done a tremendous job in this arena. His classic "White Box" edition is also FREE of charge!!!

I favor S&W in its original form at the moment, because it integrates among other things some rules of Supplement I Greyhawk which I would have used anyway, and its character-power baseline is a tad higher than its White Box version, which suits my purposes well at the moment.

I have a question: does anyone have an appetite to buy 1e modules? Either: 1) classic in-print 1e TSR modules (*blows dust off covers*) 2) New 1e retoro-clone modules

Just wondering what the interest level was out there?

Excellent game, excellent memories with this game. My favorite incarnation of a SW RPG.

Could be Narnia.

I don't think 2nd ed needs a retroclone of its own, to be honest, when the changes between 1st and 2nd ed could be covered by an OSRIC supplement of relative small size and scope. I know I'm not the only one thinking this, but I also know that some would really like to see a full blown 2e game not because it's "needed" (such a loaded word), but rather because they love the game and would like to see it in print, just like for other retroclones. That's a valid wish, IMO.

I finally got around to reading the Primer; what a golden nugget that was! It got me really thinking about running an OSRIC game. Perhaps after my current game quiets down I'll start one.

Thanks for the recommendations as well guys, I'll have to go over them in greater detail another time. I appreciate all the advice you have given so far.

Don't hesitate to ring the bell again, we're never too far away. ;-)

There is a quick question I would like to ask. Do you guys, who have played 1e and OSRIC, C&C, etc. feel that someone mostly unfamiliar with the rules could get a good game out of it? It wouldn't be about the nostalgia for me (well maybe in the small way of "Hey, Gary Gygax played like this!") since I haven't played before. Could a new guy get as much out of it as an older fellow?

As for printing the rules, same thing (again!) as Pax: Only the DM needs to have a copy of the rules. Especially with OD&D, AD&D and retroclones, it's much better if the players don't know the DM's rules (DMG for AD&D, DM chapters of Mentzer boxed sets, etc). That's part of the magic of the game.

I encourage you to download the free PDF authored by Matt Finch, A Quick Primer on Old School Gaming. It will make a lot of the stuff we're talking about here a lot more obvious.

By the way, speaking of OD&D: That's the way I'm now going for my next campaign! That "itch" I was talking about earlier spawned a whole lot of thinking on my part and encouraged me to go back to the roots of the game. With OD&D and Supplements, as well as clones like Swords & Wizardry, Spellcraft & Swordplay and Epées & Sorcellerie (in French), I couldn't be happier right now!

WOW. That's a seriously cool offer.
Thanks, Paizo team!

Thank gosh Paizo's DUngeon and Dragon will remain... Right?

Huh... Just to make sure...
This affects the actual D&D books only or also the D20 products ?

D20 products from third-party publishers would be unaffected.

Thanks Lisa!

SEE ALSO This WOTC Press Release for more info as to the potential "Why".

See here on RPG.net.

Wizards of the Coast has instructed us to suspend all sales and downloads of Wizards of the Coast titles. Unfortunately, this includes offering download access to previously purchased Wizards of the Coast titles. We are in discussions with Wizards about their decision to change their approach to digital sales of their titles and will post more information as we have it. If you would like to let Wizards know your opinion on offering D&D titles for download, we suggest the D&D Message Boards found here.

My question: Has WotC asked the same thing from Paizo?

Thank you, Silverhair2008. Stay tuned...

This cover is ... AWESOME.
What a troll!
That's going to be so great...

The purpose of role playing is for the DM to trick you into breaking your alignment and then to jump up from the table in excitement and exclaim...

"You broke your alignment! You lose all your spells forever...[pause]...and your God appears out of a cloud of greasy black smoke and turns you into a toad."

Look. I'm going to go a bit further: Here we have an interview of Rob Heinsoo that basically lines up the reasons why there were so many drastic changes to the D&D game.

I find that there is incoherence in, on one hand, acknowledging that there are drastic changes to the game, and on the other hand, refusing to understand that to some people these changes dramatically affect the way the game feels and will ultimately constitute dealbreakers. What is so hard to get here?

Surely we can all acknowledge that to some people, these changes are welcome and at the same time, to other people, these are not welcome. That's the bottom line here. That's all there is to it.

It really seems like little more than a pseudo-scientific sounding name for nostalgia in an attempt to give it more weight.

Just because some people enjoy something, doesn't make it a 'good ' feature or aspect of the game.

You don't enjoy it? I'm sorry you feel that way and happy you found other game systems which avoid this.

Do not tell me that it would objectively constitute "badwrongfun", however (take a taste of your own medicine here - and by the way, I'd appreciate if you were not calling my tastes "retarded". Civility, anyone?).

Oh, by the way: the situation I talked about (turn the corner, died) did indeed involve some tactical acumen on my part: I should have been more cautious, check around corners and such. It was my mistake if my wizard died. Just because it doesn't involve game mechanics doesn't mean there aren't tactical elements to game play. One of the biggest difference between the first editions of the game and later ones is that the tactical challenges were directed primarily at the players, not their characters.

And yes, I'm one of these guys who do not believe in the notion of objective "improvement" of role-playing games. What you've got is an evolution according to the changes in tastes and inclinations of customers which in turn affects these tastes and inclinations and makes them change some more over time. One later system is not an "improvement" over an earlier system. It's just different. It's an evolution to fit the gaming interests of the moment and ultimately? Sell more books./

This feeling of lack of "Gygaxian Naturalism" in 4e is in part due to its dissociated game mechanics. I don't agree with everything in this piece, but it's well worth a read.

Either way 1-roll death at 1st-level is a pretty terrible feature. The guy playing D&D for the first time with his 4 hit point Wizard coming up against the party's first baddie of the night - an orc with an axe - stands a chance of having his night ruined before he even gets a chance to roll a die. This is a good thing to fix.

My first game was playing a Wizard with 4HP and a Light spell in an AD&D game. I turned around a corner in some catacombs and was backstabbed by a skeleton... which killed me instantly. I was hooked.

Later, I would have a lot of 1st level characters die. When I finally made it to second level with a character it was an achievement. You see, back then, part of the pleasure of playing the game was to decide when to confront some enemies and when not to confront them (or run outright). It was also about being cautious, looking behind your back, take care of the backs of the other players. In other words, it was a game that was directed towards the players actions, decisions, tactics. If the player failed then the penalty was ultimate.

Now, I'm just telling you: you've got a way to play D&D and not have to fear this one critical hit that will kill you outright. Great for you! I, personally, love to have the Sword of Damocles hanging above my head. I like to be scared for my 1st level PC's life. I too have a game system that gives me that. Lucky me!

Just don't tell me that's objectively some sort of terrible feature of older editions. To you, maybe. Not to me.

My conclusion? Enjoy your game!

Just a notice for all of you who knew and/or loved Gary Gygax's work and deeds.

The GaryCon website now has message boards available to talk about Gary of course, organize future GaryCon events and talk gaming. The place is welcoming.

It seems that the description of Elmshire, not so far from Greyhawk city, is included in Dragon #262, which I do not own.

As I am preparing to launch a campaign in this general area, I would like to know more about Elmshire. What can you tell me about it?

Thank you!

Me.

My next campaign will definitely be either OD&D or C&C, maybe a blend of the two. I just discovered Swords & Wizardry (which really is OD&D with a bunch of elements from Supplement I - Greyhawk), and intend to build upon it as of this day.

By the way, I have a new blog about my return to the roots.

The Citadel of Eight. Check it out!

What Fabes said.

Honestly, I think it comes down to "do I want to play 1st ed, including descending AC, rolling 1d6 to force doors open, and all this 'quirkiness' (by modern standard) that makes the game awesome as it is; OR do I want to play 1st ed in vibe yet with a unified mechanic, ascending AC and other d20 stapples that make the game 'smoother' to look at?"

OSRIC really is 1st ed. through and through.
C&C has the advantage to bridge 1st ed. and d20 mechanically (making both systems' modules usable with it) while remaining 1st ed. in feel.

N.B. I know I said I was myself decided on C&C, but I'm starting to doubt LOL. I'm itching for some AD&D or Swords & Wizardry action, especially after reading through Holmes again.

By the way.

We were were talking of Labyrinth Lord for Moldvay/Cook D&D and OSRIC for AD&D.

There's also Swords & Wizardry as the reprint of Original D&D (1974) through the OGL. It's a free PDF from Lulu (there's also POD avalailable).

Charter Member here!

The site is AMAZING. There are tons of free stuff for people to preview the site, like the six first encounter areas, the maps of the first level, the blog and design... it's like spotting the surface of an immense iceberg!

I wonder what the future will bring on DaD.com, but it can only become greater from here on! This is SWEET.

I decided that I wasn't going to get these, that's how I solved that problem. :)

This is a very good point indeed: the evolution of the marketing itself meant selling to players, and selling to players meant that the DM's role as referee would slip away from its grasp towards the actual rules of the game.

I'm in complete agreement on this.

The term "game balance" used time and time again is very revealing of this evolution. What "game balance" actually means is "rules balance". There is something of a Freudian slip here in equating "rules" to mean "the whole game". This definitely reveals the way rules have gradually become the final arbiter and centerpiece of the game. Where, in older editions, the DM would override the rules by his judgment calls we now have the rules overriding the DM's judgment.

To some players, if you don't abide by the rules, then that means you are a "bad" DM. These players did exist a few decades ago already, but that tendency has only been growing since then. This is linked to what we're talking about here.

Post Scriptum - by the way, I'm not trying to put blame on 3.5/Pathfinder either. I think this is a fair assessment of the evolution of the game, and different editions will serve different objectives at a game table. To choose which version of the game to use for which game table, I think it is critical to understand each system for what it stands for and tries to achieve. I too love 3.5 and Pathfinder. It is a very different love than the one I have for older editions and variants of the game.

From the Registery http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/compatibility/registry

Necromancer Games
Tome of Horrors - Pathfinder Edition.

We won! :-)

Huzzah! :-D

I like Galt.

You don't.

I believe Golarion is big enough for the both of us.

It's extremely well done and it has a vibe of its own. There's extra attention put towards mechanical effects of things like oaths and rites. The gamut of races and classes sort of mimics the one of the D&D core books, but each time with each own twist that makes the game play different in the end.

You can perfectly use 3.X and AE side by side, accounting for just tiny differences between one rules set and the other (there's basically one feat of difference between AE and D&D characters - You decide which one you want to apply and go with it. Same thing about some precise points of the rules, like whether Keen and Improved Critical stack or not, and such details. It's really not that hard).

The Diamond Throne setting is detailed enough to make you understand it, but sketchy enough as to let you do with it as you will. That's sort of the point of it all.

Arcana Evolved is basically the reprint of Arcana Unearthed + The Diamond Throne supplement, but I suppose you knew that already.

All in all, one of the best OGL variants out there that truly plays like D&D.

I think what it really comes down to is the trust and understanding there is between players and DMs, and between players themselves.

There's been a gradual shift in D&D towards the rules being able to provide all the answers. This, and a general dislike of "DM fiat", i.e. arbitrary adjudication.

I don't really know if we can blame this on the hobby growing over time and players ending up at game tables with DMs they don't know and therefore wouldn't "trust" in terms of adjudication. Maybe it also has to do with too many instances of abusive AD&D DMs over the years (you know the kind I'm talking about: the ones worshipping Tomb of Horrors to such an extent any module they run has to be a killer-adventure, who just negate players abilities on the spot because they don't want them to work, et cetera).

I don't mean to say that trust at the game table can't exist with modern rules set. Not by a long shot. But this is a staple of the old school experience. You've got to have trust in the capacity of the DM to entertain the table and be a fair referee (the original term for a "Dungeon Master", after all), and trust in the other players to not run the show at every turn (particularly players of magic users at mid/high level) for the experience to be truly fulfilling.

By contrast, modern editions of the game rely on the rules to provide the game's fairness. This is NOT what for instance the 3rd edition DMG advises, but the insistance on "game balance" in its very rules created a further deviation from its original intent in this regard. You can visit the WotC message boards and see the miriads of topics on this being "balanced" or "unbalanced".

Certainly, these concerns did exist with older editions of the game, but never to that extent.

I assume this also has to do with the way 3rd edition empowered DMs with their own stuff - "game balance" between classes for instance allowed DMs to come up with their own base classes relatively easily. Prestige Classes. Magic Items. The list goes on. There's a loop here: you need game balance to make the rules accessible for the users, and this accessibility created a necessity for clear game balance players and DMs could judge by the blink of an eye.

Similarly, that's not to say that a DM or players can't come up with their own stuff with older editions of the game. But there again, I think there is that trust that comes into the equation, since designing new classes and such for an older edition is more a matter of eyeballing the relative fairness of the new design rather than a clear science (not that it ever was in 3rd ed, it could have been much clearer than it was, but it was more so than in previous editions of D&D).

In the case of your friend, Digitalelf, I think he doesn't really see the point because the trust is already there. I think that's flattering to your DMing, because it basically means "I really like your DMing. Why change the rules at all? That's what matters to me."

Okay. Got an answer from Peter Bradley (the author of pretty much all the art of C&C):

When is the 4th printing hitting the stores?

No one knows. When its ready too, it will be announced, not before.

What are the differences between 3rd and 4th printing?

New cover design, larger font, a revised barbarian and illusionist class, some more spells, some different art, and further cleaned up errata.

So really, what's sort of important here is that the illusionist gets more spells and the barbarian is revised. I don't know how much exactly. All I can say is that I'm very happy with my 3rd printing and expect the specifics of the differences to be found on the internet sooner or later.

I hope this helps!

I don't think the differences between 3rd and 4th printing are going to be huge, but hold on.
I'm asking about this, as well as the release date of the 4th printing, directly to the Trolls right now.

Yes. Like Pax said: check out the free Quick Start Rules first, and then, if you like what you see, just go for the "full Chenault", i.e. PHB + Monsters & Treasures.

See here for more free C&C PDFs

LOL! Both certainly add to each's charms!

Ah................. that's a key distinction. C&C is rules light, whereas OSRIC 2.0 attempts to rebirth First Edition to the extent it can while committing no copyright infringement.

I think its becomming very clear now: C&C, then, is a d20/3e approach to an otherwise first edition look/feel and play.

Similarities still exist insomuchas C&C and OSRIC advise to play fast. Based on my memory from the old day, that meant use only the rules necessary, with the DM's descriptions and wide-open character choices as primary focus with rules and books in the background (if/when needed).

Ironically, I know where the misconception comes from: from Gary's own words in The Dragon, where he insisted on AD&D being the Official TSR set of advanced rules, and any slight modifications of those rules would not be considered "AD&D". I think he was more refering to all sorts of variations floating around in conventions at the time rather than saying the game had to be played by the book, but the confusion stems from there.