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White Dragon

Benn Roe's page

514 posts. Alias of petalred.


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The travel domain isn't armour or encumbrance, so it applies. Your duergar now has a 30 ft. base speed that still can't be reduced by armour or encumbrance.


Fair enough! I'm officially happy to buy that as RAW.


I understand how stacking bonuses works, and I think your smite evil analogy is apples and oranges for that very reason. If a paladin took a feat (or piece of equipment, etc.) that granted smite evil, I think it's pretty clear that smite evil wouldn't stack with smite evil because it's an ability that grants a fixed bonus. Hell, if it did stack, you wouldn't even need another source to grant the ability, paladins at high levels get multiple uses per day, and they would just use them all against the big evil end boss for absurd bonuses. I would say that a piece of equipment (or feat, etc.) that granted smite evil would probably add to the number of times per day the paladin could smite, so in that sense it would "stack".

Constrict, on the other hand, provides an "always on" effect that says every time you succeed at a grapple check you deal extra damage. First of all plain old bludgeoning damage has never had any problem stacking with more bludgeoning damage (otherwise constrict wouldn't work at all), and second of all I know of no such rule that says two copies of the same ability are redundant, or overlap. I'm not saying they aren't, or don't. I'm just saying it's neither intuitive nor given that that's the case.

A better analogy would be another "always on" bonusless ability like fast healing. I've heard people say that two instances of fast healing don't stack, but I've never seen it cited. I could see it either way. If I have fast healing 5 from my race and fast healing 10 from a template, I know of no rule that says they don't both trigger every turn to heal me for 15 points. It's not that I'm unwilling to believe they overlap, I'd just like to see a valid rules citation so I'm sure of both the rules and the reason for the rules. I just don't like spreading erroneous rulings I've heard and assumed to be true.

And if there is no such ruling, maybe there should be one. It does seem awfully strong for constrict or fast healing abilities to be stackable.


How is that "replacing" wild shape in any way then? I'm happy for that to be true, and I don't think it's overpowered because the naga form is weaker than a lot of the other forms available, but it seems out of phase with archetype design philosophy just to give you something for free without replacing anything. Not to mention, it's a hard reading to even arrive at since the ability itself says (in however an ambiguous way) that it replaces wild shape. Perhaps since all the powers you can choose that augment your naga form replace other "always on" druid abilities, the trade-off is considered baked in?

Hero Lab certainly agrees with your interpretation, anyway. Thanks for your insight!


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

How does the naga shape ability granted by the naga aspirant druid archetype (pg.196 of the Advanced Race Guide) "work like and replace wild shape", given that it says wild shape is "gained at 4th level, as normal"?

The only reading I can arrive at that seems like a fair trade in power level without completely gimping the ability is that naga shape replaces the forms a druid would normally have available through wild shape from 6th level onward, but continues to progress the duration and number of times per day the druid can change form. Is that correct?

Advanced Race Guide wrote:

Naga Shape

At 6th level, the naga aspirant can use her wild shape ability (gained at 4th level, as normal) to assume the form of a true naga. This effect functions in a similar manner to a shapechange spell with the following exception. The druid's true naga form is unique, representing her personal evolution. When taking naga form, the nagaji's body transforms into that of a large serpent, though she keeps her own head. The naga aspirant loses her limbs and her size increases by one category, granting her a +4 size bonus to Strength and Constitution, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, and a +2 enhancement bonus to her natural armor bonus. She gains a +10 enhancement bonus to land speed and a bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage. She can cast verbal spells in this form, but cannot cast spells with other components without metamagic or feats such as Natural Spell.

This ability otherwise works like and replaces wild shape.


I think that's a reasonable reading, and it sounds like that's what my GM is going to use. I wonder if there's been any insight on this anywhere from the design team or the hexcrafter's author. If you don't treat the curses as touch spells, and don't grant them the free touch, they're really bad with spellstrike... Nevermind that many curses seem to have casting times of a round or longer.


Can you cite any particular rule about multiple instances of constrict not applying? They come from different sources, and constrict says a creature deals the damage "when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage)". I know the "including additional damage" clause is really referring to dealing damage when maintaining the grapple (rather than pinning or repositioning), but if one of the instances of constrict had a different name, I don't think there'd be any doubt both abilities would trigger. Is there a specific rule that prevents two abilities with the same name from working simultaneously, even if they come from different sources?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

If I have both Anaconda's Coils (pg.208 of Ultimate Equipment) and Final Embrace (pg.101 of Ultimate Combat), both of which are granting me constrict, do I get to use both constrict abilities every time I succeed at a grapple check? Or do they overlap, giving me only the version with the better damage?

For that matter, Anaconda's Coils says the constrict ability it grants deals 1d6 damage (with no mention of size category). If I'm wearing this belt and I grow by a size category, does my constrict damage scale with size or does it remain 1d6 as the belt specifies?

Ultimate Equipment wrote:

Anaconda's Coils

This snakeskin belt’s buckle is shaped like a serpent’s head.

The wearer gains a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +2 competence bonus on grapple combat maneuver checks. Treat the enhancement bonus to Strength as temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn. In addition, the belt grants the wearer the constrict ability for 1d6 points of damage plus the wearer’s Strength modifier.

Ultimate Combat wrote:

Final Embrace

Prerequisite: Str 13, Int 3; naga, serpentfolk, or creature that has the constrict special attack; base attack bonus +3.

You gain the constrict and grab special attacks. Your constrict attack deals damage equal to your unarmed strike or primary natural weapon melee attack. Further, you can grab and constrict opponents up to your size.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

The hexcrafter archetype of magus found on pg. 48 of Ultimate Magic opens up a special magus arcana called Accursed Strike:

Ultimate Magic wrote:
A hexcrafter magus who can cast bestow curse, major curse, or any spell with the curse descriptor can deliver these prepared spells using the spellstrike ability, even if the spells are not touch attack spells.

Most spells with the curse descriptor happen to be touch spells, so it's easy enough to figure out how those work with spellstrike. However, there are a few good curses out there that aren't touch spells and it's a lot less clear to me how those work.

Would they need to be cast in one round and then delivered in the next, since they aren't touch spells and thus don't normally get a free touch to deliver?

The wording for spellstrike is tricky, as it assumes it's only being used to deliver touch spells. The only other way to "trick" spellstrike into using other spells that I'm aware of (the Close Range arcana) is clear that it allows you to use ranged touch spells as melee touch spells, so it doesn't create these kinds of complications.

Any thoughts?


I'd still love to see this clarified. This archetype is all sorts of confusing!


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

On page 196 of the Advanced Race Guide is a nagaji racial druid archetype called the naga aspirant. It has an ability called Naga Shape, that reads as follows:

Advanced Race Guide wrote:

At 6th level, the naga aspirant can use her wild shape ability (gained at 4th level, as normal) to assume the form of a true naga. This effect functions in a similar manner to a shapechange spell with the following exception. The druid's true naga form is unique, representing her personal evolution. When taking naga form, the nagaji's body transforms into that of a large serpent, though she keeps her own head. The naga aspirant loses her limbs and her size increases by one category, granting her a +4 size bonus to Strength and Constitution, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, and a +2 enhancement bonus to her natural armor bonus. She gains a +10 enhancement bonus to land speed and a bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage. She can cast verbal spells in this form, but cannot cast spells with other components without metamagic or feats such as Natural Spell.

This ability otherwise works like and replaces wild shape.

My naga aspirant just got to 6th level and I need to have a handle on all of this, but this description raises a number of questions.

Questions

1) Naga Shape states that the druid "can use her wild shape ability (gained at 4th level, as normal)", but goes on to say "this ability otherwise works like and replaces wild shape". Does using this ability consume usages of Wild Shape?

2) If Wild Shape is gained as normal at 4th, but this "otherwise replaces" it at 6th, does that mean the final result of this ability is Wild Shape once per day that can only be used as beast shape I (to transform into a Small or Medium animal) or Naga Shape? Or does it only replace the 6th level form, basically skipping over beast shape II and elemental body I but eventually giving more usages of Wild Shape per day and the other more advanced forms?

3) Naga Shape states both that it works like shapechange and that it works like Wild Shape, and then stipulates a number of exceptions. It never specifies which aspects it borrows from Wild Shape and which it borrows from shapechange (if any). Shapechange lasts for 10 minutes/level and allows you to change forms as a free action during that duration. Wild Shape lasts for 1 hour/level and allows you to change form as a standard action that doesn't provoke. Neither allows you to take the form of an aberration or stipulates what benefits you gain from doing so. My assumption is that Naga Shape's additional text specifies all the known benefits of the ability, but what's its duration? Does shapechange actually have anything to do with the ability?

4) Nagaji have a number of racial traits (armoured scales, resistant, serpent's sense, and low-light vision) that would seem to depend on original form. The flavour of this ability is such that it represents an evolution of the druid, though, so it seems strange to lose these abilities. How does this work?

5) Aberration is not among the types listed in the polymorph rules as causing your gear to meld into your form. Does this mean the naga aspirant's armour continues to function without the wild property? What about rings and weapons since the druid loses his or her arms?

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Michael Brock wrote:
It would take a GREAT DEAL of good reasons to even get me to consider opening up a dialogue for that type of convention support.
Andrei Buters wrote:
After all, Paizo already continues the tradition of con boon support. If Paizo is sticking to it's guns on that issue, why not stick to your guns on a brand new and exciting idea that could both revitalize the con tradition while showing off the creative power of all the PFS communities?

Whereas I find it completely disgusting that the campaign management is receiving threats over the boon issue, and can't fault anyone for taking threats seriously, I do have to second the above comment. I'd like to add, though, that the venture-officer network is getting more and more comprehensive by the week. If regional scenarios were assigned to local authors by venture-officers and every region of the world had access to the scenarios assigned by their closest VO, who could complain? The complaint over boons is one of access, right? If every region of the world has access to regional scenarios through their closest VO, how would this exacerbate threats?

I guess I'm taking for granted that these regional scenarios wouldn't be convention exclusives because they wouldn't need to be exclusive in order to be a boon for conventions. Conventions in nearby regions would still benefit from more out-of-town traffic by virtue of being able to offer a higher volume of regional scenarios.

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You don't have ten players in Maine? Fifteen sessions in three days can be comfortably pulled off with ten people.

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A lot of places use the same event code over and over again for their regular game days, though. My store has been using the same code for four years.

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I recently built a spreadsheet to help me keep track of this data for my own store. I can tell you that at Redcap's Corner in Philadelphia Mists of Mwangi and Among the Living have been played the most. King Xeros of Old Azlant has been played the least.

If you want it to be really special, though, I'd suggest choosing one of the 1st level sanctioned modules. Those are both rarely played and replayable.

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You also have to think that Living Greyhawk fans split in two primary directions after the campaign dissolved: Pathfinder Society and Living Forgotten Realms. In Philadelphia nearly the entirety of our core LG fanbase bet on the wrong horse and remained D&D-loyalists. Regardless of how this played out elsewhere, there was a dilution of the core player pool of hardcore gamers. Both campaigns have since dragged in thousands of casual players to get their local numbers up, but conventions are built on the backs of hardcore gamers. It could take decades to recover from losing 50% or more of your core convention goers (which 3.5 and thereby its spiritual successor Pathfinder did when 4.0 released).

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Netopalis wrote:
However, from my perspective on the ground, we are in desperate need of low-level scenarios that provide challenge and interesting roleplay experiences. Unfortunately, so many of the pre-season-3 scenarios seem to just be slugfests with no real story behind them. Accordingly, I feel that releasing scenarios to be convention-only would do a great disservice to many local gamedays.

We're just in desperate need of low-level scenarios, period. I recently put together a spreadsheet to help me schedule PFS that tracks every game that's been run at my store in the last four years and then calculates and displays the most recent date and the total number of times each scenario has been run. What I found is that there are precious few 1-5s and 1-7s that have been run fewer than 7 times each (some as often as 13 times), whereas most 5-9s and 7-11s have been run only 2 or 3 times each. With low-level scenarios being played 2 to 4 times as often as high-level scenarios (which is actually a conservative estimate, considering there are actually already way more low-level scenarios than high), I really think more focus needs to be put on increasing the availability of low-level material.

Tiered releases fights that goal. Local scenarios, so long as they're in addition to rather than instead of the core Paizo-released scenarios, would help. I know Paizo has a quality bar they're usually very careful never to fall short of, but I'd love to see better equilibrium between quality and quantity, which I think volunteer-written adventures at a local level as a supplement to Paizo's paid output would help achieve.


I honestly think most of the blessings are fine. They're not big swingy effects, but the class doesn't need those. Interesting little niche extras are fine with me. On the other hand, I don't like that the alignment and elemental minor blessings don't stack with the sacred weapon class feature. Building nonbos into the class is bad design, and a warpriest of fire should have the best flaming weapons, etc.

On a similar note, the healing blessing overlaps in function with fervor. That actually makes it really good, effectively transferring healing to a different pool of resources so fervor can be used exclusively to buff. It is, however, going to confuse many newer players, and is arguably too good, though it does require the warpriest to prepare healing spells.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Sorry, I was out sick yesterday and stayed away from the boards.

While we are going to do some tweaking to the spell list, and we are going to take a good hard look at when some bloodline abilities show up, and some of the bloodline spells with a similar eye, I think it is safe to say, that all things considered we are fairly happy with this class, and so are the majority of playtesters.

What you are not going to see some of the defensive abilities or utilities of the bloodrager swapped out for more or quicker spell power more so than he already has. We are not making a class that has the power of the barbarian and the spell power of a sorcerer. We are making a class that finds its rage though its bloodline and has some spellcasting ability. The ability to buff itself in some ways, and to cast offensive spells from time to time when it is opportune to do so. We kept his caster level at the bloodrager level, which is already a boost for his offensive spellcasting. We are not going to give him automatic increases to DC (though he can do so with feats and other options). He has options. They are there for the taking, and we have already seen some interesting options in the playtests.

I hope that helps illuminate where we are sitting with this class.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the bloodrager have the hitting power of a barbarian and the casting power of a sorcerer. That would be absurd. I've playtested the bloodrager a fair amount (some 10th level combats I posted about, and a low-level PFS character I haven't posted about) and I absolutely agree that it's an effective class... in so much as it plays exactly like a barbarian. I just think it's a shame that it has this unprecedented ability to cast spells during a rage, but zero support or incentive to make anything of that mechanic. Nobody is asking for a power-up. This class hits hard. Unfortunately it hits in nearly an identical way to an ordinary barbarian and does virtually nothing with its spell slots.

I like barbarians. I also really like martial/arcane hybrids. I'm just bummed on a barbarian disguised as a martial/arcane hybrid, especially when the class has so many word-for-word barbarian abilities it could dump in favour of using its spells to cover its defenses. It doesn't surprise me that people are enjoying playing the class, but I have a hard time believing they're enjoying it any way they wouldn't enjoy a regular barbarian.

At the very least I hope you take a good hard look at the early entry summoner spells (and personal spells that could be made early entry without making them available as potions), and consider giving a lot of these options to the bloodrager at earlier than normal spell levels. Even if it ends up with no incentive to cast spells during a rage, it should at least have an incentive to ever cast. Those spells will still be showing up wayyyy later than they would for primary (and even secondary) casters.

I hope this isn't coming across insultingly, because that's not how it's intended. This is just exactly the type of class I normally really love, and I feel like it had one of the strongest first takes of any of the new classes, but I'm really disappointed with its current state and would have guessed this was near the bottom of the pile in terms of "finishedness" of these classes (my opinion of most finished to least finished in order: brawler, swashbuckler, arcanist, slayer, warpriest, skald, bloodrager, shaman, hunter, investigator). It's a bummer to hear the design team considers it more or less finished barring a few minor touch-ups.


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Another reason I hate A as an option is its use with weapons like scythes. I have a weapon that deals 2d4 damage and has a x4 crit multiplier. Clearly I choose to use the weapon's original stats at low levels because 2d4 is better than 1d6 or 1d8 and x4 is better than x3 or 19-20/x2. When I hit level 10 or certainly level 15, I'm now presented with having to choose between higher base damage or my existing x4 multiplier. That's a choice that feels bad even if there's a mathematically correct answer. And my sacred weapon feature shouldn't ever be making my weapon worse (and I haven't done the math, but I'm pretty sure 1d10/x3 is worse average damage output than 2d4/x4 even if the non-crit damage is consistently higher), especially if I'm using a scythe because it's my deity's favoured weapon.

Scaling damage never puts you in a position where you might accidentally nerf your weapon. Scaling damage and normalized crit stats can.

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BardLife wrote:

How could you Benn? After all our magical bardic adventures together.

- Felicity

Death. To. Most. Bards.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The point remains that there's always going to be a best build. It has never stopped people from playing the characters they wanted in the past and the warpriest isn't going to change that. Normalizing crit stats and damage just takes all of the thematics out of weapon selection.


Tayse wrote:
am i reading the complaints of this class right? people want bruce banner to hulk-out then stand behind hawkeye hurling spells at the baddie?

No, it sounds like you're intentionally failing to understand the complaints for some reason.


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)

I'm honestly not sure how anyone can think option A is any more balanced than option C. This is a seriously slippery slope of fear mongering. Any weapon you want can have the same damage, and now the same crit stats, right? So, why would anyone take a weapon without reach? Should we give all weapons reach? If so, why would anyone take a weapon without the trip quality, etc.? Where does the power gamer fear end?

Of the options given:

C is the easiest to use.
C is the most balanced.
C is the most fun.

Making the damage from every weapon standard is awesome. Suddenly weapons with nothing going for them can play with the big guns. Doing anything else to homogenize weapons strips them of their character. I'm about a 90% optimizer, but I can never bring myself to make the most optimized call when there's another almost-as-good option that fits my character's themes better. And I never had any plans for my warpriest other than a huge pole-axe. Why? Crit range and damage dice are not the only things that can make a weapon good, and polearms are way cooler than curvy swords.

Some people will squeeze damage from a class and others will make thematic choices. Let it be.

If people are really worried about the big scary falcata, then the damage dice increase should only affect the deity's favoured weapon. That way the mechanic can do what it was intended to do without unnecessary complication or stress for anybody, and good weapons still get to retain their character.


What they need is Eschew Scrolls as a bonus feat. That would really hammer home the combined flavour of a wizard and sorcerer. And of course, it would complement the idea of a magic hacker, since it would allow the arcanist to cast from any scroll costing 1gp or less without having to actually own that scroll. All they'd have to do is convince someone to sell them a scroll for 1gp and *MAGIC HACKER* suddenly they can cast the spell forever without using a spell slot.

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Death. To. All. Bards.

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Thanks, guys!!

I've definitely pulled inspiration from a number of GMs I've known over the years, most notably my early home game GMs Shawn Bonsky and Colin Ruggero who taught me the value of emphasizing the story over the dice rolls. I know a lot of people get a lot of fun out of the mechanical aspect of building and playing their characters (myself included), but I feel like everyone has a lot more fun if the characters that populate the world around them feel multi-dimensional.

I organize a lot more conventions and game days than I otherwise attend, so I'm afraid I don't know many of the great well-known PFS GMs on the convention circuit (although I had fun playing a Kyle Baird game at PaizoCon back in 2009). With regard to local PFS, I always enjoy playing at the tables of James McTeague, Matt Morris, Jeffrey Fox, Brian Lefebvre, Jonathan Bruce, and Tim Stapleton, to name a few. I've learned a lot from each of their strengths and I still feel I have a lot to learn from each of them.

At Redcap's Corner, where I most frequently run PFS games, we have a library of hard copies of PFS scenarios for GMs to borrow to run games here at the store. Each of those is slowly but surely benefitting from the highlighters and insightful notes of each successive GM, and I'd be lying if I said that hadn't become a big part of my preparatory process. In general, I read through a scenario with three highlighters in-hand: yellow for important plot points, orange for important mechanical interactions (like skill DCs), and purple for notes on victory conditions. After I finish reading through and highlighting, I go back and make sure I understand any nuances of the plot that confused me on the first read-through. And finally I revisit each combat and make sure I have a good handle on the mechanics and strategy, annotating those combats if necessary (for instance, I always do the math in advance for Power Attack or Combat Expertise and add that as a note in the margins so I'm not calculating it on the fly).

I'll have to give some thought to a favourite story. I can think of a ton of really fun scenarios, but most of them involved a great group of players with a great group of characters helping me make sure the scenario is fun from start to finish.


The problem is that the current version is only really a big problem at low levels, so a greater version doesn't fix the issue. I honestly don't mind not being able to counter 9th level spells using this ability (and even still you can counter a 9th level spell with the ability if you have the same spell prepared). I mind not being able to counter the relevant spells in appropriate CR encounters when I'm below 15th level.


I'm about 90% hit points and about 10% racial bonuses. Who ever heard of wanting more skill points? You can't use them to hit or be hit harder.


After thinkng about it a little more I've changed my mind on Counterspell. I think the nerf is a bit much. Spellcraft DC + 1 AR point + spell slot of equal level + dispel check + immediate action (as it was originally) is more than fair. With arcanists already a level behind wizards, clerics, druids, witches, and shamans with regard to highest spell level, setting them two levels further behind when they already have so many hoops to go through for immediate action counterspelling is rough. I don't mind at high levels as much, but what made this exploit so cool before was its ability to make counterspelling usable at low levels. The nerf made that much less realistic. If you want to lessen the impact of Parry Spell, just make the ability incompatible with it.


Well, it does seem that all five of the problems I see with the bloodrager could be solved by dumping some of the "extra" barbarian abilities for a mechanic that allowed you to, in some way, quicken spells. That mechanic would need to feature a meaningful expenditure of resources or setup time, or have a drawback, but a lot of good suggestions have already been made by myself and others. To recap a few off the top of my head:

MECHANICS

Rage Points: This would be a mechanic that lets you accrue points from a starting pool of 0 by doing martial things, and then either allows you to 1) expend those points to add metamagic feats you know to spells without increasing the spell level (maybe expending points equal to the normal modified level of the spell); or 2) expend those points to quicken spells (expending points equal to the spell level). The trigger could be entering rage, or it could be confirming crits, or it could be reducing a creature to below 0 hit points. And it's more or less irrelevant whether the ability just allows you to quicken or allows you to add metamagic feats you know. Some variation on this ability feels very bloodrager, allowing you to concentrate on basic face-beating early in the day while working your way up to an arcane fury.

Rage Metamagic: This mechanic would simply allow you to trade rounds of rage in place of increasing the spell level when applying metamagic feats. It feels a little less thematic, but there's no doubt it's making your rage relevant to your casting and it creates an interesting resource management tension.

Rage Contingency: This mechanic would allow you to cast spells earlier in the day with the contingency that they would trigger upon entering rage. Maybe this would increase the casting time to 10 minutes, or you'd have to cast them an hour before your rage for them to work. In practice this ends up working a lot like the changes recently made to Greater Bloodrage, etc., but has the interesting caveats of forcing you to use your resources and choose what spell to cast before you know what you'll be fighting and of allowing you to cast any spell going into your rage, not just buffs.

Explosive Anger: This mechanic allows you to quicken any spell that includes yourself in its area of effect, making it essentially feel like the spells are exploding outward from you, almost casting themselves as a byproduct of your anger. This mechanic might work best if it only worked while you were raging (further limiting it a bit and feeling more thematic). This is a niche no other class has dared to fill, and feels perfect for the bloodrager.

Any of the above could replace Uncanny Dodge (and co.) and go a long, long way toward making this class feel more cohesive.

SPELLS

As for the spell list, there's a couple of considerate steps that could be taken toward building it from the ground up without risking the potion/wand issues. First of all, look to spells that have already been made early entry spells (especially for the summoner). Just at a quick glance that opens up the following to early entry on the bloodrager list without affecting anything else in the game negatively:

Early Entry Spells:
ablative barrier
baleful polymorph
black tentacles
control summoned creature
daze monster
dimension door
dimensional anchor
dismissal
fire shield
ghost wolf
greater invisibility
haste
heroism
hold monster
hostile juxtaposition
overland flight
phantom steed
resilient reservoir
slow
stoneskin
teleport
vomit twin
wall of fire
wall of ice
wall of stone
warding weapon
wind wall

Many of these are fantastic, commonly used sorcerer spells that would feel really, really in-theme for the bloodrager, especially at a spell level lower than the sorcerer gets them. And all of these have already crossed the wand/potion barrier by being lower level on at least one other caster's spell list.

After those, the next thing to look at would be (especially 4th level) sorcerer spells with a personal range, since those wouldn't become eligible for potion use even with a lower spell level. That opens the following as possibilities:

Personal Range Spells:
beast shape I, II, and III
elemental body I and II
greater false life
monstrous physique I, II, and III
shadow projection
shocking image
vitriolic mist

Dropping these a level wouldn't affect potions, but would mean 4th level wizard wands could now be 3rd level bloodrager wands, bought for 15,750gp instead of 21,000gp. None of these effects seem likely to be good enough on such an expensive wand that the price break will matter, though.

Finally, the list could benefit from some swift and immediate spells. This yielded the fewest results for me, searching only through the sorcerer spell list:

Immediate Action Spells:
feather fall
liberating command
stone shield
windy escape

I think with many of the above, we're well on our way to a meaningful reason for the bloodrager to have its own spell list without damaging the magic item economy.


It seems to me that the design team had a compelling mechanical reason to combine barbarian with sorcerer. The idea of a class that uses rage as a vehicle to unlock its bloodline is actually really cool. It also opens the doors for a few things people have long wanted, namely a class that can cast while it rages and an arcane caster with the ranger's basic framework. This is all on top of the fact that the design of the magus went over so well and the barbarian and sorcerer have each respectively always felt like the more primal versions of the magus parent classes, the fighter and the wizard. So, what went wrong?

1) The concept has a lot going for it, and is clearly very resonant with a lot of people. The problem is that, while rage-emergent bloodlines are really cool, being able to cast while raging isn't very interesting unless there's a reason to cast while raging. Right now raging only benefits hitting things, so it almost always seems like the right decision to drop out of rage to cast because casting precludes hitting things. Why waste the range rounds?

2) Further, what spell are you going to be casting that's going to be a better use of your actions than just hitting more things (especially if you're already raging)? Bloodragers get most spells at well past relevant levels, but their plain old face-beating damage scales much like a barbarian's (which is to say it scales well).

3) The spell list doesn't (and didn't) feel right for the class as it's written, but it isn't really clear what spell list would feel right. The class has its roots in sorcerer, so it feels like it should have some overlap with popular sorcerer strategies. Unfortunately the bloodrager is best when it's beating face and that aligns rather poorly with most sorcerer strategies. Other full BAB casters get access to swift action spells and early entry spells, which both seem to fit the stunted progression and split focus of such a class, but early entry for spells is actually at its most dangerous when those spells are being reduced to third or fourth level. Those are the levels that qualify spells for potion and wand adaptation, respectively, so it stands to reason that any spell that suddenly gets permission to exist in potion or wand form needs to be considered very, very carefully. If giant form I gets reduced to a 4th-level spell for bloodragers, we have to be okay with living in a world where wands of giant form I exist. If we want greater infernal healing to be a 3rd-level bloodrager spell, we have to accept the existence of greater infernal healing potions.

4) Many people seem to be worried that the bloodrager is stepping rather heavily on the barbarian's toes. On paper, it sure looks like it could. Granted, there are some incredible rage powers and barbarians certainly get more of those than bloodragers get bloodrage powers, but with the addition of spells and other minor additions to the class, it's hard to argue that the bloodrager is getting a greater quantity of abilities overall. Unfortunately, in practice the whole of these additions is much smaller than the sum of its parts, but the sheer volume of abilities lifted from the barbarian is still cause for valid complaint.

5) The last bloodrager thread seemed to go back and forth between those who wanted the bloodrager to feel more like the primal magus and those who wanted it to feel more like the arcane ranger/paladin. This is tricky because neither description neatly unpacks its definition for you, but the truth is the bloodrager should really strive to be both. The nature of arcane magic is very different than that of divine. Divine dabbles in the offensive and arcane in the defensive, but at their core arcane casters seek to destroy and divine casters seek to preserve or create. Between the awkward fit of most spell lists and the total lack of incentive to cast spells, especially when in rage (despite rage-casting being, on its face, one of the most promising advances of this class), it should be clear that the two plans of face-beating and spell-slinging need to be more unified. We should look to both the paladin and the magus for help.

To unlock the bloodrager's true potential and make it the cohesive and interesting class we all want it to be, the above five problems need to be solved. The good news is that there seem to be very simple solutions that solve more than one of the above. I would guess this class came to exist because a few dominos were lined up correctly. Somewhere along the line a few dominos got lost, but once they're found and replaced, this class should click perfectly.


So you want the warpriest to personally drive the final nail into the monk's coffin then? (:


I can think of a few reasons why I wouldn't use a high crit range weapon with this class:

1) high critical multiplier
2) extra damage with two-handed weapon
3) reach
4) trip property, disarm property, etc.
5) my deity's favoured weapon is actually usable now even if it isn't the most powerful option available
6) etc.

I really don't think the damage progression is a big deal.

And I honestly can't believe people are railing on about this class being overpowered. The fighter, inquisitor, cleric, and paladin all have compelling advantages over the warpriest, even if the warpriest now also has compelling advantages over them. The swift buffs are a really awesome take on a spell/combat synergy mechanic and really, really not a big deal on a class without full spellcasting. That mechanic is merely the warpriest's equivalent to rage, smite, or favoured enemy (all of which are swift action or faster to activate to keep the fighting classes fighting).


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Are there any other exploit ideas that folks would like to see. We've got a few that we are planning to add, but I want to see what you have to say.

Here are some ideas that feel like they fit the spell hacker analogy:

Absorb Spell the ability to convert a targeted spell into arcane reservoir points when you succeed on your save against it.

Control Magic the ability to gain control of an ongoing magical effect, such as a summons, or a flaming sphere, or a dominate person, etc. using the arcane reservoir.

Effortless Concentration the ability to trade arcane reservoir points for rounds of concentrating on a spell as a swift action.

Metamagic Flexibility the ability to use arcane reservoir points to add metamagic to ongoing spell effects or spells cast by other people, or maybe even to other people's spells as they're being cast.

Spell Stacking the ability to cast while holding the charge on a touch spell.

Swift Dismiss the ability to dismiss dismissable spells as a swift (or even immediate) action.

Undispel Magic the ability to undo another caster's dispelling.


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When I first heard spoilers about the shaman before the first playtest document came out, it was mentioned that the shaman's familiar would take on aspects of the shaman's chosen spirit. Mechanically, I like the small and flavourful abilities each spirit adds to the familiar, but what I had originally envisioned based on those spoilers was a class that got sort of a baked in improved familiar that made it more of a spirit than an animal.

For those not into the familiar, what if the class got automatic improved familiar but from an alternate list of familiars that were actual "spirits"? It would certainly go a long way toward making the spirits feel more involved in the shaman's day to day and would preserve the witch influence provided by the familiar without it feeling like an unrelated animal that just hangs around all the time.


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I like this plan. Allow swift action offensive spells centered on the bloodrager instead of uncanny dodge, and then up their saves against their own spells further instead of improved uncanny dodge.


Shaman is not spontaneous.


It was the slayer that had been revised to d10 hit dice.


I'm not sure why people are so concerned this is too good all of a sudden. It's definitely good, but it's not going to outshine the barbarian, paladin, or fighter. It competes with them for damage output but has specialties in other areas than them.

And as for the scaling weapon damage, many good weapons aren't meaningfully affected by it at all. Sure, it encourages power gamers to use weapons with high crit ranges. Those were already strong choices, and there's already homogeneity in power gamer weapon usage in Pathfinder. Very few weapons are really worthwhile, and whereas this class makes some strong weapons stronger it also makes some quite weak weapons much stronger (which decreases homogeneity in the weapon usage of the average player). A scimitar averaging 14 base damage on a crit at high levels (18 at 20th) instead of 7 isn't game-breaking even if it is strong.


cuatroespada wrote:
wait... so the 3.5 spirit shaman's casting mechanic was recycled for the arcanist, but we can't use it for the shaman too? it's a great system for the kind of flexibility i think a shaman should have and it's certainly better than the weird blend of prepared and spontaneous casting currently implemented.

It was also the warmage and beguiler's casting mechanic if memory serves. That's not to say it wouldn't be a great fit for the shaman, because it would, but I also think it's a great fit for the arcanist.

Grey Lensman wrote:
The only thing that captures a witch feel is that they have renamed the spirit abilities hexes instead of revelations. In practice the class feels like a druid/oracle.

I'm just not seeing what feels druidic about it. It uses the druid spell list (mostly), but that's it. And how many druids have you seen wandering around that were super spell-oriented? They're usually wild shapers and/or animal companion-focused.


I don't have many ideas on this one, but it definitely still needs something. I would echo the sentiment that Precise Companion should be replaced with Precise Strike as a bonus feat and the ability to have your companion not provide cover to enemies you're attacking. On the other hand, this class gets a ton of bonus teamwork feats, but without at least one or two bonus ranger combat style feats it's never going to be able to shoot anyway, so maybe the ability's better off being replaced with something that might play to its strengths.


I'm still not sure what to think of this class. All of the changes seem like they're heading in the right direction, but this class is incredibly difficult to evaluate on paper. I'd love to actually playtest one, but I fear I won't have time before the playtest is over, and I just don't think anyone can really know what to expect with this class without actually playing it a few times.

I do think Scribe Scroll is a weird choice and that Silent Spell would make better sense, especially if it came with the caveat that it could be added without increasing spell level or casting time some number of times per day or more. Aren't skalds going to have a hard time manifesting verbal components while singing?


thistledown wrote:
It only says I treat my BAB as my class level for "attacks made with that weapon". Doesn't help for feats or drawing a weapon.

I noticed this too. The bonus feats should probably have a caveat that allows you to treat your BAB as your warpriest level (plus BAB gained from other classes) for the purposes of qualifying for them.


Virgil Firecask wrote:

I was implying that the fact that Unarmed Strike was your deity's favored weapon automagically gave you the bonus feat of Improved Unarmed Strike so that you could actually do things with your fists instead of taking all sorts of penalties. Because without the IUS feat you're not actually proficient with Unarmed Strike as a weapon.

That means the Focus Weapon ability should give Weapon Focus to warpriests with unarmed strike the same as any other weapon, because Improved Unarmed Strike should already be covered by the fact they're proficient with Unarmed Strikes.

Right. I know what you were implying. And my answer is still valid. The FAQ you're reading that says you automatically get Improved Unarmed Strike if it's your deity's favoured weapon is not a FAQ about the core line. It's a Golarion-specific FAQ, in a Golarion-specific FAQ section, written by (unless I'm mistaken) James Jacobs, who isn't on the design team. I agree that it's silly that it's setting-specific, but it is. Given that GMs using only the setting-neutral core books aren't necessarily going by that setting-specific ruling, I think it was wise for the warpriest to include the caveat of allowing Improved Unarmed Strike as an alternative to Weapon Focus, especially since taking Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) is still an option with the current rules if you're playing a Golarion game and using the Golarion FAQ. It doesn't say you have to take Improved Unarmed Strike, only that it's an option.

Sorry for the confusion!


I'm cross-posting this from the shaman thread, because it ended up being more about the bloodrager anyway.

Benn Roe wrote:
I'm a big fan of the [shaman] spell list change. It's a great compromise that gets the flavour of the spell list right without sacrificing backward compatibility by giving it its own brand new list. In fact, I'd kind of like a similar approach on the bloodrager maybe. The brand new bloodrager spell list ended up being so similar to the magus spell list anyway, but because it's not the magus spell list a lot of the cool magus spells from books like Inner Sea Magic that actually would have felt useful on a bloodrager will never be available to them.

Bladed dash, especially, will never be a bloodrager spell if the bloodrager has its own spell list. It comes from a Golarion-specific product, which means it won't be referenced in a core product unless it gets reprinted in a core product (like Ultimate Spells, *hint hint*). This is why I was a little weary of "new spell list" as the solution, rather than "new mechanics to help fit an existing spell list". I didn't love the magus spell list with the existing bloodrager frame, but the new list doesn't work any better.

I really think bloodragers should either use an edited sorcerer or magus list (the way the shaman uses an edited druid list), or they should get a mechanic that helps incentivize them to cast more of the spells they have access to.


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I'm a big fan of the spell list change. It's a great compromise that gets the flavour of the spell list right without sacrificing backward compatibility by giving it its own brand new list. In fact, I'd kind of like a similar approach on the bloodrager maybe. The brand new bloodrager spell list ended up being so similar to the magus spell list anyway, but because it's not the magus spell list a lot of the cool magus spells from books like Inner Sea Magic that actually would have felt useful on a bloodrager will never be available to them.

Anyway, big win on the spell list, even if I'd prefer the base list were witch rather than druid. The witch list is already an arcane/divine hybrid list (that pulls from the druid, no less), so it would be really interesting to see that list given to a divine caster too. It would certainly help quell cries that the witch is absent from the make-up of this class.

And on that note, I don't know that I agree that the witch is completely absent from the class. A few of the hexes feel kind of witchy, and it's a full prepared caster using a hybrid spell list, as well as communing with a familiar. Granted, it uses Wisdom as its casting stat (the native stat of the druid) and druids are also full prepared casters, but honestly a lot of the druidy aspects of the class are just a coincidence of the way the oracle and witch combine with one another. Other than the casting, the class doesn't feel the least bit druidy to me. I wouldn't complain with hexes that functioned more like witch hexes, though: functioning once per person per day.

I'm still not sure why this is a d8/three-quarter BAB class. I normally don't think of shamans as terribly well-built for battle and it would be nice to have a divine full caster that had an arcane caster's frame, especially since witches are more frail and so much of the shaman is pulled from the oracle. I'd rather see this reduced to d6/half BAB and see its spirits (especially hexes) ramped up a bit to accommodate. Especially if this keeps the druid spell list as its base, having an arcane caster's body with divine spells would allow the power to be pushed a little harder on its non-spell but equally mystical abilities.

Anyway, I still think this class is among the most solid, even if its spirits need serious cleaning up. The foundation is the most important part, and I think it's very close.


Virgil Firecask wrote:
Okay, awkward issue with Focus Weapon.

That answer is from the Golarion Rules and Questions FAQ, which is for Golarion-specific questions and answers. The fact that they included that clause in a setting-neutral class write-up is probably wise.

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