Darth Grall wrote:
This thread is surprisingly calm. Guess that just shows how bad off the Rogue was...
Not really. I can't speak for others, but I generally see little benefit in posting in threads laden with rogue-sucks-hyperbole. I apparently failed my Will save today.
The rogue is extremely versatile. If you're going to look at it solely from a munchkin perspective, you'll find DPR winners but that's hardly a good measure of a classes effectveness in-game.
Anecdotally, the rogue remains the most popular class among all 3 of my current campaigns.
I like the other niches the new classes fulfil, but as with the ninja, the ineffectiveness of the rogue is VASTLY overstated by some vocal posters on these boards.
Rented the DVD and watched it this past weekend.
1. Special effects were good.
2. Plot was paper thin but I expected as much from a monster vs. robot movie.
3. I enjoyed it, but the whole time I was watching it I kept thinking "Here's the new poster child for Big Dumb Action Movie".
4. In retrospect, there wasn't really anything memorable about it.
Still, passable sci-fi is better than bad sci-fi or no sci-fi.
Wow, what a great movie! A perfect extension of the events in the Avengers, expansion of Thor's mythos, and a terrific blend of high fantasy and sci-fi. I expected to like it, but it blew all of my expectations away.
The CA: The Winter Soldier trailer looks phenomenal and we'll see if Guardians of the Galaxy can maintain the Marvel movie momentum, but while I thought the original Thor did a good job of making the transition to live-action movie despite the most "baggage" and non-traditional comic mythos, this movie cements Thor's role as an A-list superhero.
You guys put up with a lot of bull and get way to much flak for doing your jobs. Keep trekkin' on. This storm will pass once people learn they can make this game what they want to make of it (and that right now they are making it incredibly depressing as I watch this community's behavior). So thank you again and know that a lot of us still have your back.
Thanks, Rich. OotS is definitely a gem amongst the RPG world and I gleefully rush to read each installment as they become available.
I just need to get a move-on with getting my collected book versions...
The Divine Healing mechanics sound awesome! Very flavorful and it reigns in the "I picked this deity just to get X, Y, & Z".
Note: I'm all for players picking abilities & the character they want, but if they are going to pick a deity that isn't prominent in the campaign region, they should feel like a bit of an outsider rather than expecting the GM to increase the prominence of their selected deity just to accommodate the player's choice. This seems like a nice mechanical way to reinforce the setting's canon/lore. More importantly, it also gives players of foreign/minor deities an incentive to spread the faith!
All good, amigo. My post originated from a similar mindset. If someone is advocating for X but I want Y and I don't tell the company I want Y when asked, I can't really fault the company for not delvering content that I like. I prefer to advocate from the "this is what I like, keep doing it" standpoint when possible.
1. The thread specifically was asking for feedback. If I can't express what I'd like to see in this thread, where exactly CAN I?
From Paizo's Pathfinder product page: "Pathfinder Player Companion
-- My stance is that it's out of balance - the Golarion lore is suffering in favor of increased crunch.
I cited examples of the line and another setting's line that I felt struck a better balance of Golarion-lore-to-crunch than others and did so as respectfully as I could.
If all of that equates to sounding "very egotistical", then I guess I'll leave it at different strokes and whatnot.
2. That's a typo on my part. I meant it to say "satisfying the long-time reader shouldn't have the same level of focus". Long-time readers, many of who are likely GMs, have the APs and Campaign Setting line to cater to their tastes. I'm not going to turn over a 64-page Campaign Setting book to a player - I don't want them to know all the content and it's not realistic to expect them to read that large a book to establish a character in a campaign. If the Player Companion isn't going to be the GM aid for assiting players in developing characters that are tied to the setting, what product line IS going to do that?
3. So you found new info in the book I'm holding up as an example of "content I want" where I say that there "wasn't a lot new"? (Note: I didn't say I found nothing new.) I'm going to count that as a win for both us...
4. No problem. You like the new format and a heavy dose of crunch. Many posting in this thread seem to share that opinion. Some seem much more concerned about new player options and less concerned with Golarion lore/character intergration. This was why I suggest that if that's the route the line needs to take, Player's Options make more sense than the Player's Companion since it would clearly demark a distinction from where the line originated (as Player's Companion originated as a player-friendly vehicle for imparting Golarion lore).
As for saying you'd have to reevaluate your subscription if the line isn't meeting your needs, why is that egotistical & threatening? Would it be better for Paizo to not hear customers say "this would get me to subscribe" or "this would cause me to cancel" and then see subscriptions drop off and then have to assess why that's happening? I suppose if you throw a temper-tantrum on the forums that's egotistical or threatening but I don't think my original post or yours meets that criteria. We just want different things from the line.
Patrick, thanks for the lenghty reply. As always, Paizo's attention to customer feedback continues to impress.
With respect to your comments, the one piece I disagree with is this part:
Patrick Renie wrote:
One of the jobs of Player Companions is to strike the balance between getting new readers the vital info they need to know about Nation X while at the same time pleasing long-time readers with new information about that region as well. We're continually refining this balance, and your feedback is valuable in this regard.
See, for me, the point of the Player's Companion line isn't to please long-time readers with new info. If you can add new lore, that's a bonus, but satisfying the long-time reader should have the same level of focus as the new reader focus. For me, the Player's Companion line should be a GM-friendly tool - a way to impart world knowledge to players in a format that doesn't require the GM to deliver a speech or pages of text. That's why I used the Varisia book as an example, as a "long-time reader" there wasn't a lot of new info for me (except for the excellent city stat blocks) but as a GM I loved the content that could be made readily available to the players.
That's the point I was trying to make, that the line is better served as a GM game aid for character creation/integration rather than a smaller-crunch options book.
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
That's not what I said. I was saying that in my experience, the player wanting to choose the rare/monstrous race was doing so primarily for an in-game mechanical benefit or to intentionally be an oddball. In every case, when the character was treated as the rarity/outsider that it was per the setting canon, they balked at not being treated like any human in the setting. I.e., they weren't treated as a commonly encountered race.
In other words, don't pick the rarity/freak/monster/outcast unless you're willing to have NPCs treat the character as such.
That's all well and good, your players can have the best intentions of keeping the game and campaign running smooth as much as they want, but it isn't going to stop the city of regular humans who only know of other human looking things from going "DID THAT GIANT FROG JUST F*****G TALK!?!?!?!?" Players have to understand that the world has to react to your character's race, and if they have never seen something like you before, and they think you happen to be a monster because you look like an effing monster, then you have to deal with the consequences of that. If it means the village attacks you, then it means the village attacks you. If it means you get imprisoned or hunted down, then you have to cope. Don't go walking around as some random monster looking race that no one in this DM's world has ever seen and expect to be treated like a human all nonchalant like it's totally normal for you to be there, because if it was, you would immediately not want to play that race anymore.
A 1000 times this! If a player buys into the in-world realities of playing a rare/monstrous character, ok, I'm more likely to go with it. However, in over 20 years of gaming, every player who has asked to play the oddball race wanted it strictly for the power/mechanical upside and resented not being treated like Joe Average Commoner when they were walking down the street.
Umbral Reaver wrote:
So when you're indoors you're NOT a humanoid? Strange, but interesting.
As others have said, conflict helps drive plots. Also, human nature tends towards fearing/disliking what one doesn't understand. In a world populated with dozens or hundreds of species who can kill you, people are going to look at the odd-person out through the "are they a threat" lens.
But while I think that's part of the argument against the "play any species/critter you want" grab-bag, it's just not internally consistent. Or at least, when a GM tries to make it so, players often cry foul.
To take the OP's sample party, none of those races have a significant present in Golarion's Inner Sea region. I also can't think of a published setting that would, more to the point. So outside from perhaps a few cosmopolitan cities here or there, those characters are going to stick out like a sore thumb. Realistically, that means that every time they bend or break the law or if the bad guys come looking for those PCs, just about everyone in town is going to know exactly who to look for. In my experience, the player is intentionally choosing to play a rare/monstrous race but expects the GM to run the world as if a commoner on the street should react with a simple "Hi, Bob." You can't have it both ways. A greatly overused but applicable example are the legions of Dr'zzt-inspired "good" drow. Most players want the drow's cool abilities but want to forget that it comes with the in-game-canon of belonging to one of the most feared and reviled races in the game.
In the Elder Scrolls setting, catfolk are one of the primary races. They're integrated into the setting. The one's cited in the OP are not (save the human), at least not within the Inner Sea region to any large degree. If you want a setting that treats those races as commonplace, you're going to have to create a setting for that. Whether that's a settlement, a city, or a game world is up to you.
It also creates the problem of internal consistency with respect to the game itself. So goblins and orcs are considered evil marauders and can be killed with impunity but that ifrit and catfolk are clearing not monsters? How exactly is Joe Commoner going to know that?
I'm all for a setting that incorporates different elements. I'm not a fan of constantly having to shoe-horn in the race-of-the-week and then being expected to act as if they're as commonplace as the "big 6".
Blood of Genies – only if the Golarion-specific ties are included as suggested
I like the Magic-themed book ideas, but a Companion-style book with its current format would be a poor treatment, I think. I’d love to see it in the Campaign Setting line, however.
First, thank you for asking the customers for feedback.
Second, I apologize if this post seems argumentative or adversarial as that’s not my intent.
I’ve been a fan of the Companion line since its inception, but I think it’s time to figure out what the Companion line is intended to be.
For me, the biggest draw and really the sole reason I would put a Companion book in a player’s hands is to provide an aid that would enable them to develop a character that is more closely tied to the Golarion world and any campaigns set within them. The early companions certainly did this in spades, but suffered from the valid criticism that they seemed more geared toward GM gazetteers than Player’s Companions. Of late, however, the Companion line seems to have swung too far the other way, turning primarily into a crunch-laden book. There are still elements of Golarion lore, of course, but they seem to have been scaled back to accommodate the new “Companion formula”. While there are exceptions, the Companion line has gone from a “must-buy” to a “will this really add to my game?” line.
Of the “new format” Companions, the Varissian one is the gold star – everything in that book adds to player’s knowledge of the region and integrating into various aspects of the setting. There have been some similarly strong entries: Knights and Pirates come to mind. I also enjoy some of the “Blood of …” entries as well but it seems we’re stretching the concept after the next few entries. While I don’t mind a “Blood of Genies” or somesuch, “Catfolk of Golarion” has no appeal, especially when there are still large swaths of the Inner Sea region that haven’t received decent “integrating your character” content.
Entries like the Dungeoneer’s Handbook, Quests and Campaigns, and Dragonslayer’s Handbook hardly feel Golarion-centric. They’re needlessly crunch-heavy with feats, archetypes, equipment, and spells. They’re interesting ideas, but I think that they’re better fodder for the RPG line. They certainly are not something that I would hand to a player to read for inspiration on how to better integrate their characters in Golarion. In fact, they require more GM oversight than the early Companions. Much of the content is fine, I just think it would be better served in a different line. Either that or the Pathfinder Companion line should be renamed the Player Options line because some of these books are definitely losing their Golarion-specific focus.
This next comment is an unfair comparison as it deals with a different setting, different publisher, and a game world with far fewer published words than Golarion. That said, when I think “Player’s Companion” I think of this line or books like the Varisia Player’s Companion. The line I’m referring to are the Player’s Guides from Kobold Press for the Midgard setting. These books also have archetypes, feats, traits, and spells but they are absolutely dripping with setting lore.
That’s what I want from the Player’s Companion line - player’s introduction to creating characters from a particular region. Focusing on a particular theme is fine but I feel that while Paizo has done an incredible job of avoiding the “Splats for splats’ sake” model employed by WotC, if there is one line that is guilty of falling into that trap, the Companion line is guilty of it. Too much crunch and much of it is only thinly tied to Golarion.
I want the Companion line to return to “must-buy” status for me rather than its current spot of “line I don’t know if I want it, I certainly don’t need it”. Given the August Gen Con product explosion, I cancelled my subscription to the Companion line to keep my monthly Pathfinder spend from being too ridiculous. I had every intention of renewing the subscription in September. Right now, “People of the Sands”, “Blood of the Moon”, and “Bastards of Golarion” sound like they’ll have enough Golarion-lore to make the buy list (although the “skinwalker” stuff in Blood of the Moon has it on the fence as it sounds uber-niche). The rest of it sounds like crunch-heavy books that can easily have the Golarion-lore stripped out of it. Re-upping my Companion subscription is starting to look like a long-shot rather than a forgone conclusion.
Players may love the new formula and I suspect the sales volumes support that crunch-heavy model, but I’ve rapidly tired of it. Return to content like Varisia – Birthplace of Legends and you’ve got me back.
The black raven wrote:
Not in any of my campaigns. In fact, I've had two ninjas get retired in favor of returning to the rogue class.
Wolfgang Baur wrote:
It's full of awesome! I also like the controls that allow you to enable or disable options, so it's pretty easy to incorporate the Midgard content for Midgard campaigns and wall it off in a straight-up Golarion game or mix-n-mash as needed.
Thanks so much for expanding the Hero Lab support! And a shout out to Lone Wolf Development for supporting the ongoing expansion of the GM tool I can't do without.
Lisa Stevens wrote:
Thank God & thank you Auntie Lisa!
I look forward to the Nmeria AP but definitely as a "season to taste", instead of going the world-changing route.
I have to say, I've very excited for this book. I think it will allow for some concepts that are doable via multiclassing today, but don't quite deliver on the goal.
I'm hoping Slayer is more of a lightly-armored warrior type rather than a Scout clone. I'd really like to see a class that doesn't have the wilderness focus of a Scout or Spell-Less Ranger. More of a Witcher (or at least when multi-classed with Alchemist, Wizard, or Sorcerer gets you closer to a Witcher-style character).
Also hoping for a swashbuckler-style character (Fighter-Rogue rather than Slayer's Ranger-Rogue). But it seems like a long-shot if they go with the "fill this empty combo slot" design route.
Shaman as Oracle-Witch blend is an interesting take. I like it conceptually.
Hunter - Ranger/Druid - kind of meh. Least interesting of the bunch from a knee-jerk 1st impression.
With only 10 classes (and I'm not clamoring for more), I really don't want this to be 9 martial/caster hybrids. If they fill a concept or classic archetype, great, but I don't need a X+Y class just because that particular arcane/divine/martial combo doesn't exist yet.
More archetypes are always welcome.
I do expect there to be at least a few prestige classes.
I DON'T want half the book to be feats & spells.
I wouldn't mind a class-creation system along the lines of the race-builder system we got in Advanced Race Guide.
Post full of awesome.
The Genius Guide to Mercenary Companies
The Genius Guide to Temples
The Genius Guide to Thieves' & Assassins' Guilds
The Genius Guide to Arcane Academies
The Genius Guide to Forbiden Cults
The Genius Guide to Knightly Orders
The Genius Guide to Secret Societies
-All of the above would be a SGG treatment on forming, running, and integrating said organization into a campaign.
The Genius Guide to Expanded Kingdom Events
The Genius Guide to Expanded Downtime Events
Additional votes for expanded Downtime Rules, mythic Godling, & Christina Stiles' line.
We use encumbrance as written in all of my campaigns. Aside from eliminating ludicrous situations like carrying full loads while sneaking/scouting, it has created interesting tactical choices for the players - "do I want better protection or mobility?", "what do I take on the mission?", "I need a mount", etc. My players like having to account for it.
I will note that we use Hero Lab, which calculates it for us, which is a big plus.
Fair enough. However, if ANY evil act can't trigger an alignment shift I question why alignment would even be used in that particular game/campaign (as it sounds like what you're doing). That's not the case with the OP's campaign, though.
I also tend to agree that since Pharasma is N and can have NE clerics, an auto-fall usually wouldn't apply to murder.
HOWEVER, in the situation as described, the murder was done in the name of Pharasma and in a ritualistic fashion. It wasn't a simple murder.
Unless I've forgotten something about Pharasma lore, she's not the god of justice, vengeance, murder, etc. So unless the sheriff in question was known to be directly tied to something that breaks Pharasma's tenets, killing the sheriff in her name is where the player crossed the line.
Whether that warrants a loss of powers or not would be a GM's call. However, if a player chooses to play a cleric and picks a deity for the character to follow, they should at least have a passing familiarity of what that deity is (and isn't) about. The burden shouldn't be solely on the GM's shoulders.
Depends upon the act. The case in question in the OP, probably not. Willfully killing an innocent, slaughtering witnesses of crimes to avoid legal entanglements, choosing to wipe out a city, etc. would be auto-triggers in my campaigns.
I wouldn't apply a "first offense" warning if the act was significantly evil enough.
Since the thread is in the Campaign Setting forum, my hope is that it will be part of an upcoming Campaign Setting project. I haven't see anything like this materialize in the Companion line thus far.
I'm very interested in this setting as I prefer S&S over High Sorcery in general & miss the active support for the Conan RPG. I also like the inclusion of PF races & the PG-13 approach so I wouldn't have to hide the book from my kids.
However, I haven't pledged yet due to the seemingly high funding target & prices vs. funding goals. While I understand the desire to cover PF, 13th Age, & 4e, it seems counter-productive. You have to develop for three systems simultaneously & that has to impact development in other areas. Honestly, getting a PDF copy of something in multiple rpg systems holds no appeal to me as I will never use the other systems.
If this setting makes it, I'll pick up a PF version but right now, the kickstarter isn't grabbing me.
Ha. Krugman's idea of fantasy role-playing is his economic theories. The guy's incorrect, staggeringly so, more often than a broken clock.
"Detroit not alone under mountain of long term debt"
"For years, watchdog groups and public-sector analysts have warned of the threat posed by unfunded liabilities. Much like the legacy pension costs that weighed on Detroit’s automakers before the Chrysler and General Motors restructurings of 2009, the worry is that revenues can’t keep up with growing debt and that rosy predictions for market returns downplay the actual financial risk."
What a mess. And governement officials, public sector unions, banks, corporations, and an "I don't care, someone else will pay for it" mentality ALL had a role to play. There's plenty of blame to go around.
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
For the most part, they have stated that they will not be doing stats for characters and items from the novels because a lot of times they do things outside of what the game actually allows.
I hadn't seen that posted. Do you have a link you could share or thread title?
I seem to recall Paizo stating that the opposite would be true when they launched Pathfinder Tales -- that it would adhere to the conceits of the game world. Wizards would have to prepare spells, etc. The Forgotten Realms novels were certainly guilty of ignoring the game whenever it felt like it but I hadn't seen that yet in PT.
Corruption can occur anywhere. While I'm not giving corporations run by corrupt people a pass, I don't view corporations as monolithic repositories of evil.
There are plenty of good people in government. There are also plenty of cronies, petty bureaucrats, crooks, and incompetents that are able to hide within the halls of government and enjoy job protections that the private sector doesn't have.
That said, my comment was directed at government's willingness to waste or misappropriate taxpayer money. I work with customers in both the private and public sector across multiple states and I've seen how both sides handle money. As evidenced by Detroit, one can be fiscally irresponsible very easily and for a protracted period of time if the government culture will allow it. Sadly, Detroit is just one example of fiscal irresponsibility writ large.
You're not from America. We've had 30+ years of propaganda pushing the "Government is bad" meme at us. From Reagan's "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help." through to the tea party.
Actually the "government can't be trusted and works best when limited" meme has been around since, I don't know, the founding of the nation.
Most memes are better than the prevailing one we've had for the last 40-50 years where "disastrous results don't matter as long as our intentions were good".
Haven't been exposed to government officials much have you?
Yep, a pretty bleak picture. Aside from the b-ing & moaning, however, I'm still not seeing a lot of realistic alternatives being presented in this thread. It's a crappy plan but at least it's attempting to address the issue rather than just flushing more money down the toilet by following the policies that dug the whole in the first place.
And if people want to keep Detroit as the only, rather than just the first city to go down this whole, the entitlement mindset of this country is going to have to give way towards a renewed interest in self-reliance.
And no, I don't think paying into a pension and expecting to receive a return on those payments is an entitlement mentality. However, I think anybody who thinks of their pension as a sacrosanct guarantee is kidding themselves.
I also think that if people feel entitled to unsustainable pension benefits that were negotiated by unions and political lobbies based on unrealistic expectations of future prosperity and will consider NO adjustment for local, national, or global economic realities, then those people are engaged in fantasy role-playing on an exponentially higher level than anything the RPG community has put forward in its history.
It's a crappy situation with similarly crappy alternatives. It was also largely avoidable.
:) I feel your pain. I'm in a similar boat - too many things that I want to run and not enough free time to do it. Kobold Press has definitely hit the wallet hard within the last 30 days. I picked up the campaign setting, promptly purchased as many additional PDFs as I thought my budget could withstand... and then succumbed to my first Kickstarter project: Deep Magic.
Everything I've purchased thus far has been of similar quality to the campaign setting book. It's a fantastic setting.
Inspired by this book, I just posted my first RPG product review.
I just wanted to thank the Kobold Press family for making this product and this world. I wasn't looking for another campaign setting but it appears that I could not resist Midgard's dark beauty.
Congrats on the ENnie nomination. It is very well deserved. If there's ever another chance to get this book in hardcover, consider it pre-ordered!
I have to say, even if I hadn't recently discovered the awesome that is the Midgard Campaign Setting, this would have been a must-buy just for the expansion of magic schools/sources, etc.
That said, however, this is the first time I've ever jumped on the good ship Kickstarter -- it just wasn't my thing. In the spirit of positive feedback, I have to share what pushed me over the edge: the Hero Lab files.
Honestly, if there were Hero Lab files for all of the Midgard books at this point, Golarion would already be my "fallback" campaign setting. While all of the stretch goals sound fantastic, having a book with this much content with full Hero Lab support made this an instant "must pledge".
Congrats mighty Kobolds. Looking forward to this and more to come!
So the Midgard Campaign Setting by Kobold Press had been catching my eye of late and yesterday I bought it. I am mightily impressed thus far.
For those runnings games set in that world, please tell me about your campaigns!
What kind of PCs do your players run, what kind of stories have you told, & what pleasantly surprised you and what rubbed you the wrong way?
Note 1: I've read a ton of reviews. I'm looking for actual-play & GM world/campaign-craft stories in this thread.
Note 2<mini-rant>: I originally posted this topic on ENWorld & RPG.net, figuring there'd be AGE, 4e, and 3.5 players contibuting along with PF fans. Not a single reply thus far. Doesn't anyone talk about their games anymore? Does it have to be all about the crunch? <end rant>
Congrats, folks. You edged my temptation from "curiously considering" over the cliff to "bought". Just skimming the Campaign Setting book thus far but my initial reaction is "WOW, that's damn cool!".
Sooo, when does that softcover get reprinted again? :)
Thanks for the feedback folks! It helped make up my mind to give Midgard a whirl.
Thanks, Jeff, Christina, & terraleon!
Terraleon - I guess in terms of additional examples of departing from the "standard" would be things like the following:
Druids devoted to Titans and being at odds with Clerics (Scarred Lands)
Tinker Gnome, Kender, Draconians (DragonLance)
Codified sorcery / Towers of High Sorcery (DragonLance)
Technology Departures - railroads, steamjacks (Iron Kingdoms); advanced firearms (Reign of Winter) -- I know about the clockwork & firearm "seasonings", but usually this kind of stuff is done in a heavy-handed fashion and isn't easily toned down.
Also, out of curiosity, since the world is flat, are its limits known? In other words, are there unexplored continents or is the area defined in the Campaign Setting the RAW geographic limit of the world?