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...which is where I was trying to go, however ineptly or offensively, with what I was saying. We have our part to do, and so much of the 'worth' of PFO will be dependent more on us than on the developer.
Imo one of the USP's of EE PFO will be the great community we find here. Guess I've invested a few years into the community already. :)
Well you take the suggestion with good humor and put me to rights where I could simply have said "I was confused by some of your commentary", :-). Maybe I'm the one making a meal of things here, hehe, but I notice in mmorpg forums a substantial lack of accurate articulation when players want to discuss what they find lacking in the genre and equally what they grope towards wanting more of. Of course there's sometimes the complete opposite and searing light of clarity of expression and vision breaks through.
Where does such random musings fit into the thread? Well, it could be argued the Carbine devs decided there was a substantial market of players who clearly expressed a desire to play a game such as Wildstar, so much so they were willing to put a business plan together for the above game's budget, which a quick google search indicates was in development for 7 years on a budget of 50-70m$ region. It's not an issue if that cursory spot-check is wrong, the ball-park is more than enough.
Of course the problem seems to be that perhaps the market was smaller than estimated and equally continued to decline over the course of the apparently long development.
So what can be done? Well we see with PFO that it starts small and can iterate development and hence vision over time. I think there is vision here and if one word were to summarize it which Ryan has used often:-
Maybe if you look at the fractal picture quickly you only see a weird and definite shape. Were you to look closer you'd see how crazy these shapes really are... and they're all over nature, funnily enough!
Here's the picture again:-
Fractal: "HEX -> Settlement -> Buildings -> Character Roles"
the ability to think about or plan the future with imagination or wisdom.
I think it boils down very elgantly.
Let's look again: Hexes, they are dynamic and modular and help create a highly changeable world.
Tbh I find your communication above not very conducive to discussion it's garbled without pausing to structure a coherent line of thinking, but you asked a very fair question so I felt compelled to answer it, not to attempt to sway you with hype nor tell you what PFO is or should be, but what it could be... and perhaps you failed to recognize that or use your imagination in response to it?
>" I was actually hoping for a game more similar to a table top, with more depth."
I'd say the Tabletop can provide that. They are really great gaming resources from what I've read.
I feel that the specialness comes less from raw game play than vision. I haven't heard any magic words from PFO staff about their vision. That may be an issue. I understand there is hype, but have we even heard a speech on "What will make PFO different?" Other than, you know, it has words you will recognize if you've played dnd.
Are you reading the blogs and some of the dev posts?
I would concede that Goblinworks website although improved is still very unappealing in selling the vision so maybe that is what you are referring to? But then that needs to be tempered with what is actually visible to show I'd also caution so they can't oversell the current state of the game either.
You'll find a lot of players wanting more freedom in mmorpgs albeit fearful of what you mention ganking and hacking and aversive to poor performance from bugginess. You can see this with requests for "EVE Fantasy" all over the place, in fact. Usually such requests fail to categorize what it is about EVE that makes it work. PFO does have those features albeit it has the fortune to come after EVE and see ways of developing the game and culture in different directions that are more socially inclusive perhaps?
Anyway if you want vision, I'd say PFO has it in particular:-
1. Hexes (World)
Those immediately kick-ass imo. At each level there's multiple possibilities of extension and integration of systems. Let's take some examples shall we?
1. We could have Mountain Hexes where it snows highly frequently which is lethal to characters without the right furs and outdoor gear as well as different requirements for survial.
At each level there's so much that could be extended and developed.
*AvenaOats' eyes narrow sharply, and shift rapidly left and right and back-again*
I'm seriously going to have to dig into all these, thanks for sharing those 3 links in particular (they're all excellent and book-marked). It's really "luciferase?" to explore such world-building, I find. Difficult to find the right word. :)
I know the "unwritten rules" on story-telling just about enough to know that I'm now compelled to return the favor... and not to, some sort of curse will afflict me? However I can invoke the rule that allows the teller of a tale to avoid an anti-climax, which let's me off the hook (only just!). The small secret, a mere trifle compared to the grand designs of dieties, is in part Paizo lore/cannon and in part a tiny sprinkle of spice added... connecting the dots in the lore, while I was doing some research on a number of werewolf materials. To stick to story and not enter the territory of "sale" given this is a favored and focused subject, it concerns the mythology of these beings and their origins. I think something very interesting is buried within it that is somewhat "original" and remains veiled. When a story fits together so well and yet has not been uttered... is it begging to be told or is there a calamitous reason it has not been told? That worries me, but I have a hunch it's the former in this case. Afterall, a good story has to start with ONE set of footprints, doesn't it?
This world-building is very appealing, very artful!
I did find out one nugget of info on Pathfinder's world-building that had me salivating due to it's secrecy... !
Well although what you write is very informative, eg "calcuated whackiness" resonates, I think Being was definitely on the right tracks, you can sometimes tell a lot about a game's aesthetics that inform "deeper" intentions of how the game is played and hence what the perhaps you can call it "design philosophy" is actually trying to say to the player and community?
Personally a grittier art style for PFO would be fine by me, but I see they're attempting to keep the current Paizo Pathfinder flavor for continuity. It's so important if they're trying to develop social systems in the game such as buildings, politics, taxes (and death!). That said given it's high fantasy the idea of "Planes of Existence" I have a peccadillo for this being more expressed! :)
On Wildstar the things that struck me which led to having no interest at all and possibly little insight to share, hence:-
As for PFO's current MVP core game loop. Not played but I think territory control and farming resources and mobs in your bit of territory and preventing others raiding it, well jealously guarding our land seems very appealing and farming those mobs and nodes ensuring their harvest is collected for the group and not into the hands of those other gangs of players. That sounds motivating given that context to it.
I guess there will be players who like fighting mobs, again I'm not much of a fan of fighting AI PvE mobs so maybe can't share many insights here either. Cracking other players skulls and taking their harvest though...
Tbh most people stay clear of alpha for a good reason. Last game I tested burnt me out in no time and the "will to log in" deserted me for either a long time or permanently tbh, hence I'm not in PFO Alpha. Also getting my computer sorted (graphics card, RAM and Win7 OS and borrowing a decent screen and throwing away the bad screen I got off ebay).
@Thod: It's a very, very useful thread. Some summary and consolidation of "How To Improve Your" Network Connectivity (and buy a good graphics card!) posted as per GW's Custom Operations function will be very useful as you point out.
I was going to say I have one of those 20m cables for direct connection. Saves a lot of wifi fiddling. Also defragmentation and getting the computer to run efficiently is good practice in anycase. The specific software again as another option for them that want it, it provides a range of different options from simple to complex from quick and free to longer and cost etc.
I notice a lot has been discussed about tricks ISPs may or may not use, and methods that may or may not work to get around such tricks, but I also notice that the original question has been ignored, evaded and deflected.
Well from our resident cowled and cloaked shadow, that's aligned! ;)
I've provided some input on what an END-USER can do their end.
I've deliberately avoided any suggestion of inference what Goblinworks have to do SERVER-SIDE as that is beyond my understanding. I don't know much at all about Netcode. But what Ryan says about increase in data (more players in density) leading to increase in packet data loss rates rising (??) sounds plausible to my amateur ears as a major explanation and rising above a threshold you get kicked?
Minor explanations probably are the Client/User-side stuff to speed up the connection... probably helps somewhat and for other internet usage anyway so of use even if it is minor contribution. :)
Just to chip in. Developing a particular brand of RP coined "PAR" after Ryan's additions to the subject or related to the subject which ever is more applicable:-
RP = Role-Playing
PAR = Playing A Role
Of course our activities will be scheduled only during the phases of the Full Moon, so the overhead on this choice of gameplay will be minimal conflict with the character's normal duties.
It's turning out to be a complex project but very rewarding. Got 1/4 done and working on the other 3/4 atm then need to exchange this "vision" into a "blueprint" with the other members before discussing further with the wider PFO Community.
Hrn, here's some guidelines I was looking into in case of issues:-
1. Restart your router!
2. Check if your ISP is throttling your BB
Use measurementlab.net . If throttling then maybe complain to EE's customer service department (who will get complaints daily). Keep records of your communication with your ISP. If you do dump them then look for a new provider who uses Local-Loop Unbundling (LLU).
3. Switch to a faster DNS Server
There's "DNS Benchmark" "DNS Jumper" tools grc.com/dns/benchmark.htm to use for this exercise if desired.
4. Wi-Fi problems would involve further solutions (Channel, new firmware for your router, repeater and positioning of router), but the above are worth looking into if you have a direct connection to your computer. And check none others are using your wifi channel.
After that I guess you're at the mercy of your ISP.
A quick google for general solutions:-
Maybe there is something helpful here. It's just a bit of research I did for my own uses in the event.
Thod there should be various tech boffins in the forums who can advise?
That said, I've looked into this and when I get time will try to post/posit some resources for use on such issues. It's a very energetic w/e so forgive me if I fail in advance to get back today and I'm not a tech expert either so these are just pointers/resources you may already have covered/know of.
I was sold on the idea of PFO in part what I wanted in mmorpg "more freedom" from myself and in part from what Ryan demonstrated in design and again in engagement with interested people.
I was sold on the idea of EE despite limitations in part due to lack of alternatives and again because there's a chance a good quality community will harbour in EE, which adds a lot of value imo.
I did not realize Ryan had such a history in games previously but certainly did recognise the design idea was really great even if the implementation challenges still remained "staggering"!!!
Veeeery interesting interview (good interviewer and interviewee: It takes 2 two Tango as the saying goes).
What stood out for me the most was the way Ryan mentioned how unpredictable confluences were often important in how things shaped up.
Good question on "was it Pathfinder or was it an MMO?"
Maybe it's redundant if as per Ryan mentioning, at these various stages it provides "opportunity for conflict". Also combines with the idea of licensing the online aspect and the financial choices behind that.
I definitely see where you are coming from here. Guess this is MVP + 1, given all the below stuff needs to run smooth and iron out more "stuff". Then we get this it becomes more about as you say sustaining interest.
Lisa Stevens wrote:
Btw, there are also some high level wolf-type monsters that have been built, but I haven't seen them yet in the game, including worgs, winter wolves, and even hell hounds!
Music to my ears.
Feel like I'm more up to speed with where the game is now.
Calidor Cruciatus wrote:
Yeah I'm hoping the various player groups get their identities and parcels of land and become very territorial (and touchy!) and then seek to amass power and the strategy kicks in.
Ryan Described this very well here in this interview:
I'm guessing the basic gameplay "feel" is the key as is the core combat and how fun that is. Then how those are a part of the above game loop successfully.
All comments appreciated. I'm probably going to hold off hopping into EE on day 1 (moving around and getting a new graphics card etc) but also will jump in when I think the above is up to standard.
Please provide your feedback modelled on the above or in a more relevant way?
Just curious, where did you stumble by PFO, first? And bonus question, what in particular concerning the vision caught your eye?
I ask, so as you can contextualize the questions, because it provides me with an idea of who is drawn to the idea of PFO at this early stage any what about it they feel compensates it's vestigial current state of development.
TEO Cheatle wrote:
Worth holding onto that thought, rough seas ahoooy!!!
Calidor Cruciatus wrote:
Tbh, staggering probably makes the most sense. Sure a lot of peeps might be a bit disappointed not to jump in on day 1 along with everyone else because they want to wait for the full MVP features to be in, but it balances the various necessities this way I imagine.
Just hold off and dive in a bit later. That's what I plan to do.
It's pretty simple, if you don't feel like the game launch on 22nd is up to scratch, then don't spend your xp-time on it or even just pop one month's worth.
Personally I'm fine with others jumping in and myself jumping in later, given the current update.
I'm sure the devs appreciate that but I doubt they'll cheerfully announce that option: They want players both playing (working the game code) and paying (paying them to work!)
Q1: What do alpha players think of the current status and how that translates to M.Viable.P. for EE?
Q2: One of the reasons GW may want an earlier release than later irrespective of full content/features implemenented could be to do with the server and network of having many more players in the game (it sounds like they're keen to raise the numbers but ensure the density is kept managed in the recent update. If so, would GW consider free training-time for those that take the plunge and jump in without the full features, listed as a compromise, or even x1/2 cost of training time?
Q3: I kinda want to know some spec info, as I need a new graphics card so this info to have before hand is useful to be prepared to download and run the client, any details on this before EE start?
If the Hammer is significant part of your character concept whom you're building and attempting to understand how they would act, then I would hope you do what MUST be done, and not rest, nor stop until the sound of hammers falling on anvils (and goblin heads) rings across the River Kingdoms, that all players everywhere know the importance of hammers!
I'm working on a character concept myself and when it's done I'll pass it by you.
Q.9: I'd argued an open question of how much delay would you tolerate from 15th Sept for GW to continue development from days to weeks to months?
Q.X (10!): Suggest a question on what sort of things do you want/expect from Crowdforging too.
Snitches Laden wrote:
Thanks Man, I fell back in love with MMO's once I found out about eve-online unfortunately I was ten years to late to the party I'll see what I can do man Love Path Finder and not having to DM would be amazing lol.
That's my story with EVE tbh. I always meant to jump in but kept delaying and now it makes more sense to give PFO a go. So much choice and so little time. I like the idea of a Game Of Thrones dynamic more as well. I'd say I really want to see mmorpg genre take more of EVE's concept forwards also and see what it leads to.
But the game will launch in Early Enrollment as an "MVP" (Minimum Viable Product) Big Things Have Small Beginnings and add systems via "Crowdforging" Announcing a New Crowdforging Tool: Ideasscale or this ad hoc unofficial one: Poll: Crowdforging feature implementation priority
Snitches Laden wrote:
I think that adding something like this to the game will not only make player interactions more meaningful...
Bingo. Could be an awesome role for player to take up.
Well I'm happy to see the Legal System is top of the charts atm.
However, I'd IMPLORE! :) people to vote for Caravans next. The Legal System is highly necessary to create status information between players and groups of players: Such information is rich for gameplay. But also just behind that is moving heavy goods is also rich in gameplay due to it's information impact on the economy and if it needs hauling via caravans that is a major economic trade requirements if it cannot be moved so easily without such "heavy-lifting" major operations to move. It should make economies more localized due to such severe limitations of movement of such goods and time to do so and exposure as high exposure target for aggressors further increasing the importance of this feature to the game for economy and pvp and organization.
I really like it (big fan of ambushing). It's allowing the a option to actually "hide in cover" which you normally can't do in mmorpgs. hence my usual favorite of finding a climbable tree and spending a few minutes climbing high up out of field of vision. Few and far between in most mmorpgs though.
Could limit to requiring some vegetation nearby instead of anywhere?
Love the idea, think it's necessary.
Master of Shadows wrote:
It can be hard to untangle.
Imho, however, the way to conceptualize it is as per Spaceships:-
1. Choose a hull type
When you make once choice eg Hull, you're already building a particular kind of tree-build with a particular emphasis: Slow but high armour-shields, low movement, but high cargo hold etc...
IE you're anticipating and planning your FUTURE FUNCTION for the specific goal you want to achieve.
Tbh, this is the best way forward. It allows players to choose MORE future functions but keep each built for those functions specific/specialized towards doing that more effectively. It's not about the build it's about the goal = interesting decisions for players and ideally as they play more MORE of those to be able to make.
There's 2 major technological opportunities with digital games vs physical games I can think of to compare:-
1. Networking many, many people into the same game space.
The design of PFO does align with this in mind, so at least it's first step is in the right direction unlike most mmorpgs that have been developed, which may have travelled very far - but in a different direction and hence you can't help but ask the question, if not using the above, then why not just play a nice game of turn-based DnD/Pathfinder/TT instead?
What is the expected problem that death penalties are intended to mitigate? Spawn rushing is already a prohibitively expensive tactic.
I just see the suggestion I proposed above as a fun system to mess with the "reality of the game world" according to Pharasma's Mark.
Interestingly I see Camelot Unchained has similar idea for stealth; it's an idea that I would like to see more of in fantasy. There may be important repercussions with the pillars and a fair bit of fiddling with the radius of death - who knows could be an upgrade path!