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Goblin Squad Member. 2,874 posts. No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists.


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Goblin Squad Member

BrotherZael, it is an interesting concept. Could you go into more detail about how The Viridian Circle will perform such a noble function to uphold nature, advance the Druidic cause (perhaps monthly Moot?) and more on that aspect of the group's functioning?

Goblin Squad Member

##4. Paizo's supported material (which likely builds on 1-3)##

A dig around in Paizo comes up with some interesting looking material on werewolves. Two in particular caught my eye:

(1) A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen der Dæmonwulf by Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway

(2) Complete Guide to Werewolves (OGL) PDF by Goodman Games

There are some others but from cursory inspection they don't appear necessary or focused for our initiatives' objectives.

(1) has more immediate application to our MVP-RP approach to werewolves and will form the main basis to apply to PFO. (2) expands tremendously on werewolf lore and concept from more reseach on the orginal mythology to expanding the range of werewolf types and life-stages even. There may be one or two really useful nuggets to take from (2) but overall it's beyond the scope of what this initiative requires. That said those nuggets will weave their way into our story such as understanding the mind and motivations of the werewolf for example. Actually reading some of (2) for the first time it's nice to see much of the summary for 1.-3. independently come to here.

Sympathetic Magic as per Frazer's The Golden Bough will probably become a part of our "Origins" story which is a useful nugget taken from (2) for example:-

Complete Guide to Werewolves wrote:
It wasn’t much of a leap for the old sympathetic magic rituals, in which men wore wolf pelts to draw strength from their power, to be transformed into something far more sinister.

It will also be a useful source for talking points such as the effect of the character's alignment on their werewolf transition or if bitten, the source of the bite and if that has any influence. But that is all besides the current exercise. Quite a lot of the RP and even a system for this may be gleaned from this source for the Cooperative which will then reference heavily eg:-

Complete Guide to Werewolves wrote:

Most werewolves prefer to hunt traditional wolf meals: cattle, sheep, deer, and other four-legged mammals.

Werewolves prefer to attack prey at night if possible and generally commence hunting at dusk. Once a werewolf’s prey is detected, the pack will split up to encircle it, looking to block any form of escape. The werewolves will stay out of sight, staying in humanoid form in crowded areas to blend in and using wolf form for more open terrain.

In (1) the conception of the werewolf fits with our plans:

Märchen der Dæmonwulf wrote:
This time, however, we aimed to improve on the overall method, making the "building blocks" readily available to players who aren't willing to invest in an entire class (for example, existing characters who are already invested in another class) but still want to play in the proverbial lycanthrope sandbox. To this end, we decided to distill these werewolf powers into feats. For the most part, these building-blocks come in the form of feats, starting The Curse of the Beast feat which allows a character to transform into a wolf, but also forces them to deal with a number of dangerous side-effects.

Key considerations to the werewolf character:-

Märchen der Dæmonwulf wrote:
  • First and foremost Lycanthropes are melee combatants, who revel in sinking their teeth into the flesh of their foes.
  • Can be of any alignment, though most tend towards chaotic and evil alignments, as their inner beast drives them into darkness.
  • Any race can be the subject of the werewolf's curse

Key Feats/Abilities (as applicable to PFO):

1. Curse of the Beast (wolf transformation)
2. Lunar Phase (full moon)
3. Corpse Feeding
4. Call of the Wild (empathy with wolves)
5. Control and goals while transformed
6. Silver vulnerability

Items of interest:-

1. Silver
2. Wolf Pelt
3. Wolfsbane

This is a very quick summary of relevant information. Perhaps the biggest take-home from this is the idea that providing building-blocks for players is the ideal method and which the Feats system might in time be able to provide. That said the cooperative will for a variety of reasons contain operations to Full Moon Events when the curse "bites".

Next we'll look into the "Origins of Werewoles" aka "causes" as a starting point for 5.

##5. Approximating all the above to fit PFO appropriately##

Goblin Squad Member

BrotherZael wrote:

<.< she is only once a OOOHHHHHHHHH

seriously though, what is the perspective on pain during transformations? Each time, more over time? less over time?

What about insanity? Loss of control?

In my opinion, pain everytime.

Insanity... hmmm yeah why not.

Loss of control... well I guess that goes with the insanity, right? But at the same time... I'll say no...

My way of doing it would be, as you said, giving the were a pvp-ffa flag and having everyone tagged pvp for them as well. Then change their name to a generic name, e.g. Werewolf001, Werewolf071, etc. Then leave the choice of "kill everyone or not" to the player.

This is nicely summarized in the TVTropes analysis page. We'll try to set up a similar analysis fully applied to PFO. But these core topics hit the right notes on what we need to discuss to bring werewolves to life in PFO.

* Transformation is very important to the lore. It will be an end-goal of our cooperative I think. It will be inserted into the "graphical" category of goals. Again Full Moon appearing at the appropriate time in-game is also another "essential" in the "graphical" catagory.

* Self-Control We can perform both "insanity" and "loss of control" or a combination of the same thing (lol) via performance ie RP and thus through volition player behaviour. This is immediately part of the focus of the cooperative's goals. Graphics costs money to develop, whereas our cooperative will use a range of RP tools. This will not probably be available immediately either however, but there is a solution for that already in the works which will come under our "Origins Story" that all members can enjoy and start having fun operating from that basis. :)

* Flag We'll get flagged as per the redundancy of being an attacker so the flag should actually already aid us. The real question we need hard data on is the reputation and alignment shifts for our members and an assessment on that measure.

* Anonymity Don't know yet about anonymity, there may be good reasons not to be even if IC it would be cracking fun. Think this one might need careful consideration. Seeing as we won't have the option for a while not going to focus too much on it. Other players may know our werewolf proclivities but they'll know we're only operating under this geas during the full moon too or least that will be worked on via the cooperative side of our group.

Black Silver of The Veiled, T7V wrote:
It also pretty much classic that lycanthropes are completely naked when they "turn back".

Yeah, this could fit really well into the concept as above applied to PFO's equipment system of characters. Far in the future, if we have our role, we could attempt to crowdforge this that we don't carry equipment in preparenedness to transform and may even untransform naked in some place as further elaboration of the nature of the werewolf. At first we'll make use of what we have actually got and that won't include this, but we could voluntarily implement it as per our RP as decided by the cooperative's members.

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

Pathfinder lycanthropes are often depicted wearing clothing or armor however the depictions I've seen also show it being torn/stretched. I would say a good downside would be that all your gear minus weapons and possibly amulets get turned into "Tattered (Item name)" or something of the sort, lose most of it's effectiveness, and remain that way after you transform back.

One cool part about this is since it loses most (but not all) of it's effectiveness that actually disincentives a werewolf to remove all their gear before transformation. 25-50% effective gear is still gear and you're going to be a lot weaker in hybrid form if you don't just eat the penalty and accept the damage.

That's interesting info/take on the werewolf concept. We'll probably start with the wolf form in which case we'll operate a policy. In time we might even gain a crowdforged "you remove all equipment" then transform (as per the movies etc).

However the Hybrid form should we get to that stage, poses an interesting mix. For example in Dog Soldiers they are able to open doors etc and are a mix anyway so it should not surprise. Perhaps you've hit the nail squarely on the head here, Andius in the Hybrid Form, some sort of choice might need to be made by the player given the transformation loss of control and damage and then what is to hand/paw?

Goblin Squad Member

BrotherZael wrote:

Well, for what it is worth... I think I can put TVCs support into this, obviously not with the consent of Blackwood Glade, but hey.

As long as you keep those pesky vampires and liches out of this we should be find. And if you do include them we only ask to provide them with a ten-foot pole, the better to keep TVC back a bit.

Is there anywhere in particular I can go to discuss this matter with you all?

I provided an answer of sorts in the other forum. We're apolitical, but ideally I'll take up Andius' coordination offer with a standard website to set up a basic "full program, faq, description, how we fit in with other groups, membership, calendar and so on..." But in the meantime I'll try to work on developing a website from scratch as a personal project. This dual-approach seems the best method to go for.

Haha, our cooperative will have our hands full with werewolves. If anyone is ingenious enough to be able to create a presentation for other character concepts that are workable for implimentation we are all ears (and claws/jaws). But werewolves are partly as per Andius a rich part of the market to choose but also the stars appear to align on their potential for PFO more strongly, that I can make out.

I realize nature vs supernatural will be a constant dichotomy in the development of our werewolf story. To begin with, we'll form the story grounded more in our player's place in the RK's and it will derive from there into an excellent tale (pun intended). :)

Moridian wrote:
So I gathered. I had considered a thing like this a while back, though I never really got it past the initial stages, because I suspected a lack of interest. But I'd gladly shed blood with you, each and every moon.

I remember some of your input and discussion along these lines in fact albeit perhaps in another but related form. If we pool together all the common interests then we might be able to over-perform in our efforts. I think low interest initially is not a problem, it's more to our member's benefit according to how we will organized and what opportunities as a group we can provide to members. That is the plan along with feasting being an important component each (and every!) full moon. I hope we can share stories of what prey is pulled down for example.

Goblin Squad Member

@Moridian: Please feel very welcome to be a part of the cooperative! One objective is for this to become an in-game "player event" per full moon.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
AvenaOats wrote:

...Thanks to the support of Woodlands and Rivers Environmental Company and The Viridian Circle Charitable Foundation, AvenaOats has been running a captive werewolf project since December 2011 to help find out more about how this long-lost, predatory monster can enhance the landscape and aid the biodiversity of the region.

The first phase of the "Wild Werewolf Project" is complete and two years’ worth of valuable data has already been collected and analysed.

At this point I confess I was expecting a news update that Avena was missing from her remote campsite and local officials were mounting a search and rescue operation...

Dang. Missed opportunity there!

Btw Being, with your Druidic leanings and other, more esoteric learnings, you are automatically invited to join the cooperative in any capacity you so wish to choose.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

By the way. Could you register on our site Aveno?

I have a few things related to this proposal I'd like to discuss with you but your private messages on the Paizo boards are disabled.


Also done a quick skim of the Grimoire for the next blog on werewolves tomorrow (!).

I have a theory for the first question too "Origins" of werewolves in the River Kingdoms that integrates lore, RP and the actual in-game development (already alluded to). Which is a befitting first topic for the cooperative to crowdforge together!

Then I'll target "aligned" player groups that seem to fall fully within the werewolf venn diagram and then expand on invitations from there if that first membership phase is consolidated which may take some time (which we have plenty of to play with!!).

Goblin Squad Member

##General Notice##

I might use this thread for general purpose blogging as material to then transfer to a more established site. It may be of interest or not and if not the "∅" can be used which sits next to each thread title, in the forum; but hopefully not.

##Werewolf from first principles##

There's a couple of different approaches:-

1. Archetypal
2. Folk lore and myths (possible builds on 1 but likely also introduces independent elements??)
3. Popular culture's conventions (eg literature, movies and TT which likely builds on 1-2)
4. Paizo's supported material (which likely builds on 1-3)
5. Approximating all the above to fit PFO appropriately


I came across a couple of theories but will develop a general summary here that goes through the process of 1-4, with a view to formalizing for 5.

This I'll interprete** as the primary theory and tag:-

A: "The Call of the Wild"

1. The wolf as an equal top predator with shared characteristics eg hunting in a team, deeply caring of the young and the pack, territorial but free and wild and in harmony with it's primal instincts. Possibly people respected the wolf and feared it in equal measure for millenia when our ancestors first crossed paths with them. Particularly our hunters who may have observed at first hand the wolf's tactical hunting as a pack and careful companionship. They must have recognized the expressiveness of the wolf also as a social animal with upwards of 24 different types of communication categorizations.

1. During humanity's trajectory through history during our "hunter-gather" stage we probably elevated the wolf as an equal and to be respected as well as feared as the top predator. But when the time of settlements came and people became more remote from the land, then both the schism in our "self-aware" consciousness (ie separate from nature) and our actual environmental remoteness from the wild increased our separation and possibly distrust/estrangement? Equally our domestication of herding animals changed our view of the wolf from respected rival to dangerous and damaging enemy?!

2. It seems the transition from pagan belief systems to more montheistic systems also left little and less room for the wolf (and other archetypes) and their conversation toward's for easy example "the devil's dog" became more established. For example the wolf has a place in the Greek/Roman Pantheon alongside Artemis (The Goddess of the Hunt and Moon) whereas the concept of the "wolf in sheep's clothing" that appears to have spread with Christianity changed the wolf's role to that of slavering, deceptive predator, ie the wolf within (coincidentally the recent movie: "The wolf of wallstreet").

1. & 2. However different regions and different cultures have emphasized different aspects of the wolf as representative or significant such as it's virtues as a powerful hunter in harmony with nature or it's strong nurturing instincts (such as Romulus and Remus) and family bond that ensures the success of the pack to it's other role as a insatiable and murdurous predator of more sheep-like and peaceful neighbours. Therefore all these seem to hold some currency and relevance depending on what is emphasized.

1. During the Middle Ages it appears that possibly wolves were hunted and their populations (at least in Europe) were reduced to the wildernesses far away from civilization. However the memory in folklore and culture of the wolf persisted even if the actual wolf became more distant.

2. Here we enter more of the folkloric formation of the werewolf stage (which from Anglo-Saxon is "were = man(kind) ie human kind" and wolf so human-wolf effectively). This was not the first time that the human brain combined disparate images eg the wings of say swans with people or in ancient Greece, King Lycaon was the origin of "Lycanthrope" a combination of "lycos = wolf" and suffix of "human = thrope". In this myth the king provided some chopped up humans for his guest Zeus whom he suspected of being to trick him which angered the god so much he turned the king and his sons/family into wolves.

1. & 2. These stories may have gained more traction when during drunken and drug-fuelled revelries or even the symptoms of psychopaths some people were found brutally murdered in a fashion wholley macabre and savage and without rationale reason for example possibly and more often enacted by males on women and/or children. And this then feeds into the concept of the ravening wolf (which harks back to the Edda's Fenris wolf) of blood-lust out of control / balance in the developed warrior? Hence a certain "Jungian" approach to the concept of the werewolf might have developed including the superstitious origins of wolfsbane (which may have been used to actually poison wolves) or the combination of wolves howling at the moon and increased excitement and crime in settlements during the full moon (recent scientific research into stats combining a Friday night and a full moon eg) or perhaps explanations for some medical conditions exhibited from different bouts of psychosis (eg delusion) or especially vulpine features and hairyness (ie visual features as well as psychological).

3. Entering the popular culture a century and a half or so ago, along with other such monstrous figures (eg vampires, ghosts etc), werewolves went through a standardization. Fortunately unlike Vampires (as per TVTropes) they did not go through a revision:

Werewolves did not receive the same revisionist treatment as vampires did during the 90's... Partially this is due to the high probability of Special Effect Failure in visual media, but also because the concept is much more difficult to revise (even with today's computer SFX). Having your neck bitten by beautiful people is erotic, being torn into bloody chunks and eaten is not. And in most common depictions, werewolves aren't exactly sapient in their beast / wolf-form. Hence they're often relegated to supporting roles in Fur Against Fang plotlines and Fantasy Kitchen Sink settings. Oddly enough, such an earlier revisionist treatment happened in medieval times for fictious werewolves; in the Chivalric Romance, a werewolf could be a perfectly gentle and noble beast.

However, recently the werewolf's cachet has been rising.

TVTropes alert! has done a super job here. And independently also mention the supporting role, their analysis page is one of the best summaries of the popularization and standardization (albeit with variations):-

Analysis: Our Werewolves Are different

  • Cause of Lycanthropy
  • What forms do they become?
  • When do they transform?
  • Self-Control While Transformed
  • Weaknesses
  • Cure for Lycanthropy
  • Relationship with "real" wolves
  • Other Common Characteristics of Werewolves

Also for a list of Werewolf Works in popular culture and at the wikipedia entry for werewolf too, which explores much of the above in a wider less synthesized form.


Here is a rough draft of 1-3. I've attempted to "keep to the point" and avoid a full academic treatment (no matter how tempting) as most applicable to our objective for PFO (ie 5.). Also the above summary as useful and culled information for our cooperative to use as the body of information to usefully refer to (when draft turns to finished article, with references) without loosing where everyone is referring to; as a key objective in crowdforging will be to provide equal discussion for all members to contribute (1.-3.) towards the next phase (5.), post (4.).

This post covers in draft 1.-3. The next "blog entry" will have to access Paizo and Paizo's 3rd party contributor's own treatments as applied to the TT game, of which there is a fair body both for Pathfinder and 3.5/OGL and to dissect the decisions those creators have taken and why and what lessons we can learn.

But no doubt before that there is ample opportunity for all to discuss the above. One final reference of particular use in the above: Jungian Archetype of the wolf – gods and godnesses, warriors and mothers, demons and outlaws, evil and uebermensch

**Note: I'll reference properly these theories when they make the transition over to a finished source and make corrections. These are more summarized notes atm.

Goblin Squad Member

BrotherZael wrote:
And where, pray tell, do us... other "denizens of the night/lower planes" reside in relation to this agreement, hmm?

It's a good question. Because in conversation we need to step-back from the details and remember the "why?" concepts that led us into the discussion, in the first place.

In the previous thread I made the distinction in which categorization of cast of actors we can assemble: The Once and Future Game: "Theatre of the Mind" or Crunchy System?

1. Main Cast = Main Races (full-progression ie character's journey is always going to be 100% scope and hence the devs main form of focus of development (and monetization)).

2. Support Cast = Alternative Races. These are anywhere from 100% to somewhat more restricted according to lore but probably/possibly could be considered future additions eg Goblin Alignment restrictions.

Now looking at the above most of them (iirc) are part of the Civilization <=> Wilderness dynamic equilibrium. Our characters in a fantastical world where perhaps our races are knocked off their totem-pole top position as most powerful beings have to continually war and push back the wilderness and more.

I think some of the Support Cast and some of:

3. Other Cast

could be interesting to explore as additions to players developing characters. The thing is they would probably need to be restricted in population and progression as side-additions for players to enjoy ie side-plots to the main plot of the above Civilization vs Wilderness Plot.

Hence any of the templates eg Vampires, Werewolves, Liches and as many more as can be conceived would be interesting to look into.

Andius posted on this subject with respect to tapping this part of the player market since WOD was discontinued, PFO could provide something here potentially.

So there may be a good "why?" but the question then becomes as important if not more so: "How?". In this thread (dare to tread) Crowdforging: The Player Cooperative + Goblinworks Franchise Licenses TL;DR I proposed a general method for any of these concepts and a specific solution (perhaps the general method is more significant?) using as an exemplar werewolves specifically.

To note with emphasis:-

1. Each concept has it's own specific requirements and conditions
2. Each concept may vary in the challenge of implementation (how).
3. Possibly, werewolves may be one of the easier (but still extremely challenging) concepts to attempt to develop via the above approach, which Andius more or less nails correctly:-

Andius wrote:
-snip-...that it's a loose cooperation of people roleplaying lycanthropes/who want to see lycanthropy added to the game.

I think I gave a fair answer to Doggan on this previously albeit the superstition and fear of the werewolf proceeds us and makes acceptance and understanding of our existence more challenging and met with predictable hostility & fear! ;) But again to be clear, what we attempt to do is RP as a sort of "leaky abstraction" and forge our own rules and thereby our own fun. Of course this is the "in-group" part of the cooperative's work. The "out-group" part of the cooperative's work (should and) will involve other players groups.

Secondly to increase our chances of success, we'll need to "inherit" as much redundancy from current design (Andius provided an excellent eg above concerning the "heinous flag") as possible and that will be added to the Cooperatives operations, to summarize conveniently:-

1. RP werewolves in the basic under-developed capacity using our own creativity.
2. Cooperate across the community
3. Crowdforge "intra" with members (as well as the more universal crowdforging across the entire community).
4. If we achieve success prove a possible model for other initiatives of other concepts ie trail-blaze.
5. Set a goal of an MVP werewolf implementation
6. Grow support atst as balanced with correct concept ie not a themepark solution to the introduction of werewolves but a genuine sandbox solution. Has any game ever achieved this?
7. Build a werewolf and community resource for this franchise and attempt to work something out with Goblinworks if we prove successful; using such 3rd party practices as Paizo already makes use of in the TT but applied to PFO. (7's a portentous number!).

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

1. You are flagged as heinous while in hybrid form (and for a short period of time after you go back to your human form), allowing all players to attack you free of consequence.

2. Werewolves are automatically entered into the werewolf faction and constantly flagged "for the cause" allowing players of opposing factions to hunt them at all times.
3. Werewolves cannot see any player or company information on non-hybrid form players while in hybrid form.
4. There is a substantial debuff that is applied if they remain in the proximity of a non-hybrid form player for too long. (Making it very hard for your non-werewolf buddies to scout for you and encouraging you to kill or flee from nearby players.)
5. All NPC-city guards automatically attack hybrid form werewolves on sight and there is an unrest penalty to player settlements and POI's that don't set their guards to do so as well.
6. There are certain special attacks and damage types which are only useable or do additional effects against werewolves and other monsters, that wouldn't effect a regular player the same way.
7. Werewolf skills require standing with the werewolf faction, and are only trainable at werewolf POIs.
8. There are incentives for opposing factions to destroy werewolf POIs.
9. Werewolf POIs are only constructable in a certain part of the map. (Possibly an area of Ustalav opened up in an expansion)
10. Most actions that generate werewolf faction standing are chaotic and/or evil.
11. There are certain things (random chance on taking damage, full moon night, etc.) that may involuntarily force a change into hybrid form.
12. There are other things (trueform spell, etc.) that may involantarily force a change into human form.
13. Hybrid and animal form take up a weapon slot. In addition any hybrid/animal form specific abilities not on the weapons bar aren't usable outside those forms.

Just to categorize these:-

1. Flag
2. Faction (NPC)
3. GUI
4. Exploit mechanic?
5. NPC Guard reaction and settlement debuff
6. Eg Silver weapons or holy?
7. Progression
8. Faction status
9. POI relation
10. Alignment
11. Force change
12. Equip

I really like the heinous flagging idea of 1. That's something we could work towards fairly early on.

Had not considered the Faction system the devs are considering. It seems like a natural fit for creating pvp opportunities. However need to consider it more from our basic concept ie first principles.

Alignment we need to calculate this. Again from the basic concept I'd argue theoretically that ANY alignment can be a werewolf as it's a temporary alter-ego and this expands the concept to be a form of curse. I think it might be interesting for different players of different alignments to contend with this curse variously, I like the idea different players will make different choices or slide in alignment with the consequences of keeping the curse. Lots to discuss on this topic, so I'd not necessarily restrict it, but we may find PRACTICALLY certain evil/chaotic (as per the Grimoire) tend to suit werewolf characters. We'll need to start with an open mind / blank slate on this topic and see how it plays out and how different characters can regulate their alignment/reputation hits (in the early days when our concept is operating independently of the systems).

Some of the more sophisticated ideas eg "exploit mechanic" and "settlement debuff" and "POI" and "force change" I'm not going to comment on at this time due to their potential implementation complexity, which is something have to postpone if the werewolf concept takes off. Part of the cooperative will be crowdforging in a way where members participate in bringing werewolves into the game operationally which in terms creates a platform for potential popularity (directly and indirectly) before we can then proceed with more ambitious. Some of these are cool ideas however and need to be added to a list for future reference, I go with?

Again coming to eg Silver weapons or the related ilk, this may come before any of the above as if we first increase our popularity as integrating beneficially with the economoy of the game and requiring less (an educated guess) resources to implement but wider effects and positive on the economy.

Progress has substantial meat to chew on for our cooperative. Reading the Grimoire there are a ton of feats and abilities and integrating the "power balanced by the curse" concept as above but also some really really cool stuff where were we to achieve these our cooperative might be considered very successful initiative indeed.

The other topic mentioned a lot but not specifically discussed is "hybrid vs wolf" forms. I think we'll be doing well to get a wolf form implemented initially as MVP to work with. In the Werewolf culture the two forms sort of are inter-changeable. For example comparing, "An American Werewolf in London" the form is more wolf-like and even described by eye-witnesses as mistakenly some sort of wolf-dog iirc. Whereas comparing to the other greatly entertaining modern werewolf movie, "Dog Soldiers" (based in Scotland this time!) the Hybrid form is very much chosen and equally engaging. However for practical implementation I think a basic wolf would be a good goal to initially set for ourselves and develop from for reasons to expanded on later.

Great post, Andius, required a couple of responses, mostly discursive in nature, but there's plenty of material to work with here.

Edit: Spotted a few grammatical errors etc, but feeling dog tired as hiking most of all of today. I spent a little time tracking some deer marks too! And the thought of some mechanic (no matter how fanciful that might be!) of tracking for werewolves in game really gives me goosebumps!

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
I figured I'd post this here. Werewolves are powerful creatures and any implementation should involve some of that power. They also need powerful drawbacks that make them a non-obvious choice for every player though. This is something that games like Elder Scrolls Online fail to do and it results in a massively overgrown population of werewolves.

Yes, the core concept is exactly right: Werewolves have certain powers (the beast) and certain downsides (curse). I need to work more on the archetype discussion of werewolves but that is the basic outline and it's also highly practical for scaling up too.

The list of downsides and upsides and integration with other aspects of the game listed are really great ideas. But, we have the germ of an idea and that is in our timeline our beginning to begin phase. The list will include items that are as per above A... -> @D. IE far down the line. So we need to step along the process. I hope to elaborate on this and also comment on the list shortly to keep the conversation going.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
PS. On loss of control, I think it can easily be incorporated into the lore that the Mark of Pharasma dulls or entirely negates the effects of powerful mind control magic (As we already know those types of spells won't be usable on players for full effects.) It's easy to say that same part of the spell that grants that also dulls or negates the complete loss of control from the lycanthropic affliction.

Just to engage in a conversation about this aspect (to note an awareness of this point), it has also crossed my mind, the question:

>"What effect if any does the Mark of Pharasma have on our lycanthrope affliction?"

The way I begin to try to conceptualize it for our characters, is that our characters are still very much themselves (they all acquire the Mark) and it only a very temporary window of opportunity where they are "not themselves" so to speak! Hence on balance I'd motion that the Mark's influence applies, it's a bit like our character's essential nature remains unchanged, even if say they lose a limb or some other change while still under the Mark (perhaps it also protects against loss of limb also).

In any case, the devs mentioned on this subject the lore peeps at Paizo are conceptualizing the Mark (from your previous thread on the mark!):-

The intention is not that everyone has the Mark. PCs do, and maybe we'll have some NPCs that do, but certainly not all of them. Once we get a tutorial in, I think it's our plan to frame it around the basic setup of the Mark.

We do have a plan for what's going on, and Paizo has approved at least the generalities, if not yet all the particular plots we want to tie to it. We're planning to treat it as one of our lore mysteries that will guide our development of PvE content over time.

I think overview ties in exactly with what you say above, loss of limb and loss of mind are negated under the Mark of Pharasma at least "PERMANENTLY". I think however we can work with "temporary" variations and keep open the space for players to attack friend or foe via our the core essence of werewolves and our design ideas can work with that. But also as noted replying to Lam, there are further embellishments where we can suggest the Lycanthrope (Werewolf to be specific) is more fully in control. But this is stuff we can elaborate on after a core basis has been thrashed out more substantially.

Goblin Squad Member

@Lam: That is the conclusion I would draw also. Yet I have an idea for the design that allows for this very necessary condition, but not onerously so. That is important. There is a precise balance required. But I agree part of the essence of the werewolf is precisely the indiscriminate savagery to friend or foe alike. To provide examples sampled from the lore available in wider popular culture: The movie "An American Werewolf In London" the test of this provided at one stage in the film fairly conclusively. Again, to provide another example, Harry Potter and The Prisoner of Azkaban to quote Hermione Granger:-

Hermione Granger wrote:

An Animagus is a wizard
who elects to turn into an animal.
A werewolf has no choice.
With each full moon...
...he no longer remembers who he is.
He'd kill his best friend.
The werewolf only responds
to the call of its own kind.

Noting the other distinction eloquently described by Miss Granger concerning elective choice vs no choice "...With each full moon...".

However as an extension and in keeping with our further design ideas, we keep the door ajar for variations on this core theme, however, for future space and creativity of our cooperative.

Goblin Squad Member

Amazing work.

Goblin Squad Member

Marketing Mode:

The River Kingdoms "Wild Werewolf Project":-

Thanks to the support of Woodlands and Rivers Environmental Company and The Viridian Circle Charitable Foundation, AvenaOats has been running a captive werewolf project since December 2011 to help find out more about how this long-lost, predatory monster can enhance the landscape and aid the biodiversity of the region.

The first phase of the "Wild Werewolf Project" is complete and two years’ worth of valuable data has already been collected and analysed. A report on the Wild Werewolf Project so far will be available to download from our publications page (when the website is available).

Thanks to new funding from "Ustalav's Wildlife Rangers", the Wild Werewolf Project is continuing into its second phase. AvenaOats has been given a big stack of Skymetal (from a mysterious benefactor) to support the project for a further three years, during and beyond Early Enrollment. This money will be used to monitor the ecological effects the trial Werewolves are having on their environment and prey – from changes in the vegetation composition to effects on the populations of dwarves, humans and elves. Woodland diversity levels and quality will also continue to be monitored at the site and all results will be published in 2016.


Why a "Wild Werewolf Project"?

Werewolves are a vital missing link in the Riverlands ecosystem and forest and upland environment which is suffering from the loss of werewolf activity during the lunar cycle. In principle we support Goblinworks call for crowdforging to reintroduce races and note that the River Kingdoms is one of the few remaining regions in the Inner Sea not to reintroduce werewolves.

However we have no specific plans to reintroduce werewolves into the wild immediately. We would in principle like to see this come to pass but recognise that a great deal of work would need to be done before it could happen in practice.

The main aim of this project is experimentation and fact finding. It is thought that the werewolves will greatly enhance the danger value of the Crusader Road wild areas (for other players and only during the full moon) and they will in effect be used as a conservation management tool for three years.

AvenaOats has kept the Goblinworks authorities fully informed of the intentions of the "Wild Werewolf Project" and has complied with all of their stated requirements & regulations under Directive GW/A2014.

Future updates on the "Wild Werewolf Project" will be published after the next phase of the project is completed. Stay tuned! In the meantime for more information visit "lycanthropes: Friend or Foe?"

Goblin Squad Member

Doggan wrote:

I'll retract my question, because it doesn't look like it's getting answered. Best of luck on getting traction for your idea. Even if I dislike it, and will fight against it, maybe GW will see things differently.

PS: You'd make a fantastic politician.

I can lend a hand, you may like to style yourself as a Lycanthrope Slayer.

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:
Werewolf stories are parables of balancing power and control. While it might not be fun to lose control of your powerful furry friend, that's part of lycanthropy; they lose control when they use their powers.

I like this. On Reputation hits, at the beginning that is how it will be, as we'll be operating under our own remit and have no choice on the matter. It's probably a good fit anyway given the above.

But that's not to say we can't have this conversation further down the line when we have full transformation and our cooperative has proven itself to be asset to the game, then some kind of account management system tied into reputation... who knows? We'd have to work on this idea further.

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

My problem with both your and Urman's suggestion is this. Where is the upside?

I've envisioned full moon nights as something werewolves want to log in to participate in because of a simple reason. If you don't offer that why would they? If I have a werewolf and full moon nights offer nothing but penalties I'm going to go craft on my DT while they happen.

If full moon nights offer such penalties there needs to be some draw that makes werewolves log in to participate anyway.

That is an important consideration: We need to address how the Lycanthrope role is stimulating and fun? My personal take to add to the conversation is that the experience and the rules and work towards developing the concept of Lycanthropes will be it's own reward and equally own way of making more fun for ourselves and potentially becoming popular enough to get some Goblinworks' input. That to me is the ultimate goal of putting up with the deficiencies but overcoming them with our own inventiveness and RP and putting up with such "penalties" as best we can. The more we can exercise this, the more we may be able to achieve and the more development such as genuine feats and perhaps graphical enhancements such as a bigger and meaner looking wolf model with a corpse-feeding animation and audio blood-curdling "howl" we might be able to achieve.

I see initially the major draw to participate simply being the organization and cooperation to develop the Lycanthrope presence in game to become a genuine asset and alternative form of engagement. It is afterall a side plot the major story of the settlement conflict, by a small group of oddballs, once every full moon in a comparatively small area of the game world!

Urman wrote:
edit to add: I've trampled enough on AvenaOats' thread and will leave it now.

All discussion that will have to take place sooner or later!

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

First, you make a big group of lycanthropes.

Second, you rampage and murder anyone within reach.

Epilogue: Nobody can retaliate against you for your actions. Mindless PvP that only has negative consequences for your targets.

It's not really super complicated.

That would be the short-termism approach to Lycanthropes. The way I hope it develops with the assistance of members of the cooperative (and remember the main criteria I'm going to use is Trust for addition of membership and also a smaller membership again for communication purposes as it is initially an RP-led exercise) is to bring a net benefit to the game world even the victims, knowing that the Lycanthropes are operating as you would expect them to on the Full Moon according to their nature and their frame of reference to the world on such bloody-thirsty nights. One of the things about this size of the cooperative being small and operating only during the full moon again this is positive for players to react against. In time it would be great if the cooperative grows and silver weapons are the weapon of choice during this time: Lycanthropes will literally have changed some aspect of the world!

Goblin Squad Member

Doggan wrote:
AvenaOats wrote:

Doggan wrote:
If you want lycanthrope for strictly RP reasons, would you be okay with the fact that it was just a change in model without any sort of mechanical difference?

To elaborate further for Doggan's question's clarity, the RP is one tool out of a set that we would hope to use, but it's a powerful tool that will provide a lot of gameplay possibilities both at A and at D. To reveal more might be to unmask too many mysteries too soon. /amateur dramatics!

To be clear, there are bigger (and wider) objectives, but initially it would a positive addition to even have the model transformation. Let's call that B.

I'm really confused here. My question didn't need any more clarity. It was about as straightforward as I could make it. Still kinda hoping to hear an answer.

My apologies, I'm suffering some flu since the w/e atm, so a bit foggy-brained.

The way I'm trying to work out what a Lycanthrope would be like in the River Kingdoms is the basis for the concept. I tagged them as support cast and apart from the main cast of main races who exist in civilizations that war with each other. So in that sense it will be RP led, again to create some theatre of the mind additions: If you like an amusing on the side player initiative that is not antagonistic with the politics of the different groups but "diversionary": A welcome exploration of more of the River Kingdoms world. But the objectives are both bigger, to crowdforge this role into the game more and wider, to create a genuine cooperative around this character concept that works on the concept, works on a possible implementation of how Lycanthropes could be added and what feats could be developed for them, that grows this membership and possibly invests into it. It's also important to understand that such a group will require different formalization on different criteria to succeed and that too is perhaps the most important objective of all to succeed even if we fail to reach our final objective of successful implementation of Lycanthropes into a fantasy game in the way "they should be" represented. That's up the members of the cooperative and hopefully it will be worth their time and investment - and be fun.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

I'm of course interested. I'll have to read more on this later.

If we want to RP lycanthropes one thing we could possibly do before GW releases anything official is wait until wildshape is out, then agree on a full moon night schedule. Preferably one that allows for full recovery from a rep hit inbetween each one.

Then all lycanthrope RPers kill someone in their wolf form on that night.

If we get enough supporters involving themselves GW will probably take note.

Great! "Your credit's fine, Mr. Torrance."

You raise key points:-

* Concerning beginning to begin, I actually think some of us can start with a bunch of luna-tic barbarians or other meeting during the lunar cycle's full moon. On the moon cycle we'll probably restrict any relevant activity to the full moon only. If the system were ever developed further the other phases might be considered with respect to buffs and debuffs. This is detailed in the Grimoire very well.

* Point taken concerning the importance to allow members to make a full recover of reputation hits. Absolutely agree.

* The key is to balance the savagery with our code and guidelines so even if we perform reprehensible acts, there is an in-game logic and balance to our activities as per our RP conception of our characters being fully developed with a well-built frame of reference to the game world to inform our actions. One way to perhaps create a system for this is some sort of "event card" system for members to engage with during these nights with various potential activities eg "On this dark night your belly is full and you feel a keen desire to patrol the borders of your territory" or "This dark night your hunger for fresh meat know's no limits and you will attack and consume for as long as the night is dark," or "You and some fellows form a pack to bring down bigger and more powerful prey..." or "Your transformation complete the heightened sensory experience overloads your character's mind and you rush through the landscape in a blur, a blood moon hanging low on the horizon, anything is possible on this night." etc.

* This is correct. I think we need to be very well organized and systematic and ensure our activities act holistic to the River Kingdoms to benefit the game world for all, our cooperative and the rest of the player population and ensure we play by our set rules fairly. This is the way to develop things and that comes back to the quality of the membership requiring high level of trust and for that a strong history per player to become a member of the cooperative is the most essential criteria for membership. If we are already creating content for the population that integrates, we're already pioneering some of the work for Goblinworks to be able to formalize and add.

Goblin Squad Member

Yes will do, thanks for the heads-up.

Goblin Squad Member

These are sort of the same question in different guise.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Not to be "that guy", but perhaps you could just build barbarian/druid characters and flavor your wild shaping as lycanthropy?

This is what I was referring to as "A" above and for some time that will be the likely modus operandi available and it is serviceable, we'll start with Barbarian then include Druid. B then is not too big a next step after this and you can guess well enough what that might be.

Doggan wrote:
If you want lycanthrope for strictly RP reasons, would you be okay with the fact that it was just a change in model without any sort of mechanical difference?

To elaborate further for Doggan's question's clarity, the RP is one tool out of a set that we would hope to use, but it's a powerful tool that will provide a lot of gameplay possibilities both at A and at D. To reveal more might be to unmask too many mysteries too soon. /amateur dramatics!

To be clear, there are bigger (and wider) objectives, but initially it would a positive addition to even have the model transformation. Let's call that B.

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:
TEO Lone_Wolf wrote:
I’d say it would be prudent in lycan form to have some sort of animalistic rage affect that makes it impossible to tell friend from foe, or something like that, but mechanically in a computer game I’m not sure that...
Maybe when the animal brain takes over the lycan just sees "Human" "Elf" where the rest of us see a character name and company/settlement details, and vision is in grey scale (background) with red scale targets (living creatures/victims). A lycan could work with his buddies through Teamspeak to verify he wasn't attacking friendlies, but only at a cost of effectiveness.

Good visions. This particular area is ripe for inventiveness!

Goblin Squad Member

Looking over the Grimoire referenced above, there's plenty of source material to work from, which is very good news.

However, initially we have to work with what we have which will be very little except our very powerful brains and that means harnessing RP rules to our cooperative.

TEO Lone_Wolf wrote:
I’d say it would be prudent in lycan form to have some sort of animalistic rage affect that makes it impossible to tell friend from foe, or something like that, but mechanically in a computer game I’m not sure that is workable.

ie 1) The MVP I can envisage atm, knapkin sketch and all is the ability to create a wolf form on the full moon and then enACT as werewolves our own volition control via RP and our Cooperatives' guidelines. There's even stages before reaching these that are workable*. But I think this is the starting point and then we can start to investigate and work on in particular:

1. Boon from corpse feeding eg translation to movement, perception, bite/claw power of attacks, call of the wild (summon wolves) etc etc and many more feats described in the Grimoire that could translate over if our cooperative reaches a certain stage of development and support and interest.

TEO Lone_Wolf wrote:
Certainly some apply only when in Lycan form, but some probably should carry over into human form as well... Not sure how to deal with that.

2. ie 1a) Initially we'd probably have to work off just having the ability to transform for the full moon and keep our character's lives totally distinct and separate from their alter-ego alter-beast lives on the full moon. This creates a nice break for the contract of the cooperative where we can suggest the guidelines are active and where they end too. ie 2) Naturally Alignment/Reputation hits would have to be the individual player's own responsibility in the early days until again we can get to a stage where Goblinworks may work something out for us.

TEO Lone_Wolf wrote:
There are just so many aspects of this idea that would be really interesting in PFO and add a lot of unique flavor to the game that I think it’s too cool not to do it!

3. ie 3) I definitely would love to elaborate and express more and more of the Lycanthrope lore into this design eg Silver weapons, boon vs curse repercussions and of course the infected bite that curses the victim etc etc. We can certainly brainstorm these ideas into a potentially workable system, but as built into the Lycanthrope "research unit" the cooperative is going to be set up in part to work on; we need to identify what is possible to implement and progress development in game and prioritize and what would require more complicated and dedicated development - dependent on popularity.

Now if we manage to get a paw into the game world and start to make a name for ourselves, you never know if we do a good job, our popularity may build a wave of good will that can take us further along to these "research" ideas.

4. One of the underlying ideas with this Player Cooperative is a different formalization of relationship based on trust not necessarily on purchase power nor in-game status or some other measure. That is a fundamental I hope to use to create an RP group for this character concept to bring some acting into the game where we use PFO as our canvas and our high level RP rules as a cooperative group to paint the world - "red"!

*These early stages will be outlined in some neat and tidy summary somewhere, probably a good place for beginning to begin as it were.

Edit: Added specific quotes I was referring to (in case it was too oblique!). It seems to me we'll start with A->B->C->D etc and A will be very very basic whereas stages after D might start seeing these more elaborate implementations if we get there, it's going to be a long journey.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:

Sorry Avena I was merely bemused by the conceptual contrast between 'were-' and a sheep. Many visuals attended.

I realize I should display greater gravitas, even be adult, but inside me lives a real kid.

I was taking you up on the idea! There's a movie called Blacksheep from New Zealand fittingly, a sort of dark comedy. No idea if it's a good film. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

@Nihimon: I see your "methodology" at work..

>"Does a were-creature resumes its normal form at death?"

@Urman, this consideration passed me before and I don't know the answer, another one to look up and consider and discuss. I know in one movie they do change. The idea of anonymity or not again that is something further to think about. Ideally there would be, so it's more like a monster/AI attacking in appearance, and the idea of a secret society remains in tact too! But there may be good reasons to keep a character name. More to ponder.

@Being: What is appealing with the werewolf or lycanthrope is the duality between being perhaps a LG upstanding character and then this dramatic transformation into a blood-thirsty "monster" and then the next morning after a huge feast of human or other flesh waking up feeling great enjoying the blue sky and doing good works, maybe helping the local charity or something? With the weresheep such a duality would need to be found for the drama. Perhaps the weresheep would raid the farmer's fields and devour all their crops?! But the affinity of the pack and the hunt are a good fit for player characters and wolves. In fact that is another angle for the cooperative to discuss the use of packs and when and when not. I also like the idea of intra-rivalries developing for contesting superiority again an alpha pack type of match with wolves.

Goblin Squad Member

@TEO Lone_Wolf

At first we'd have very little to work with. We may even have to be reduced to the state of barbarians with cannabalistic leanings and eventually druidic properties with a tendency to meet for the full moon for a blood feast, in the early days until our dark prayers are answered more wholesomely. A lot would be up to the members of the Cooperative to RP and work on what is possible and what is feasible to kick things off.

1a) At first both would be very little. Over time we could see some benefits, the special powers to transform for example then the addition of specific stats for our transformed shape. Very small incremental improvements but enough to use and requiring bare development requirements from the devs.

1b) Ideally the follow through with "The Curse of the Beast", we'd be able to crowdforge a boon to corpse-eating (more power during the wolf shape) and a curse to not meeting a sufficient quota of consumed meat perhaps for the character. But this would be quite ambitious and far off from this moment in time.

2)The idea of being free of reputation/alignment changes, or not, would be a big discussion point.

Initially there would be no way around it and members might take a hit for their curse, by waylaying a character to perform the blood ritual, hence the above slide towards Chaotic/Evil tendency though as it's x1 a month Good and Lawful could probably "manage" this peculiar and periodic slide. Later if we gain access to wolf shape we might then carry on taking an alignment hit during the full moon and then decide how necessary the functionality of being immune to this hit is, depending on of course the discipline of our group's membership to RP the lycanthrope. At that point, there could even be enough bartering power with Goblinworks for some sort of functionality. And then we'd need to prioritize between feats, alignment and graphics and lunar cycle additions and more.

3) I've given that one a bit of thought and it would (perhaps surprisingly) be lower down the order of priorities I'd guess, given a lot of the player behaviour works off a basis of trust and responsibility and that is allocated via membership to the cooperative according to those measures to ensure the cooperative's in-game activity is to high standards and positive to the game world holistically. So I'd be careful to transmit the curse given the above, but potentially some sort of temporary transformation into a basic wolf could be a work-around to inconvenience a player as well as gift them a temporary experience as a wolf, something like 1 in 50 bites?! /theory-crafting

In terms of the progression of the Lycanthrope, feats would be another avenue with +50 in the book referenced above. So there's lots of "space" but we'd have to be willing to work with very little of it for perhaps a while to make a go of it. And it would be more about making the group work out of game and in game only during the full moon of course! So fairly easy on time-commitment of members. I like to think of this group as a type of secret society extra- to regular group affiliations, ie it does not clash with their interests bar "a small inconvenience" per the moon phase.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks Nihimon, most assiduous. I'll follow up with a summary description seeing as it's an usual type of group.

@Jazz: The road is long and lean, it may be more about digging up a few graves to gnaw on at first but maybe in time a battle under the full moon will be a moveable feast of rich pickings. We'll probably have to have a discussion about weak/wounded making priority targets or not...

Goblin Squad Member

"The Shadow of the Beast" (working title)

Nation: Any
Settlement: Any
Alignments: Any (let me check my Grimoire: "Lycaonites can be of any alignment, though most tend towards chaotic and evil alignments, as their inner beast drives them into darkness.")
Player Roles Accepted: Any
Gaming Membership Status: Must be interested in crowdforging Lycanthropes for implementation and potentially motivated enough to chipping in a monthly donation towards this endeavour (tbd).
Application: TBD - I'll get something up and running for this which will be of interest to potential members and the curious alike.
Useful Reference material: A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen der
Dæmonwulf by Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Hollowa

[Nihimonicon note: It may be something of a fatuous group atm (hopefully the future is open to revision), but also something of a novely]

First: This may very well be a doomed (doomed to fail) and a cursed (requiring your character's inconvenience every full moon) venture. You have been warned!

Now, this is not a CC nor settlement/nation player group but another kind of affiliation that integrates with any of these with minor conflict of interest (full moon only!). So it's open to anyone.

As a lycanthrope, we only require your services on the full moon. Then you must be ready to follow the Cooperative's strict guidelines on RP of Lycanthropes ie playing with "good form" and keeping the Lycanthrope name in good repute with the rest of the player-base, such as attacking strangers in the wilds during the full moon, attacking indecriminantly and consuming the fallen carcasses of players, animals and mobs. That is all good form and in keeping with the nature and motivations of the Lycanthrope. Your membership will be at risk for example if you choose to use this ability for your character and their group's exploits. The Cooperative will need to sign a contract with members to hold up these standards, as support cast in the world of the River Kingdoms and as in particular Lycanthropes your role during your transformation is altogether very different and more IC focused or should be.

Objectives of the Cooperative:

1. Motion Goblinworks via forging a group membership that supports a MVP version of Lycanthropes in PFO.
2. Work on adapting some rules of Pathfinder Lycanthropes into PFO and submit to Goblinworks for inspection.
3. Work on the role that the Lycanthrope is intended to play. Remember this is not a core progression role but a side-role concerning experiencing what it is like to be a Lycanthrope in the River Kingdoms. For most of the game world's month you can be whoever you want to be and carry out your membership duties. But come the full moon you are expected to shed your human skin and unleash the beast within.
4. Work on the guidelines for altered beasts which members are required to stick to. Think of it as advanced AI with plenty of human scope for spontaneity and RP.
5. Create a website for information on these creatures, a fansite and resource and member's area to centralize working on the above.

A full set of Do's and Don't will be produced as guidelines in a first draft of RP of Lycanthropes.

A full research and summary of the literature available on Lyanthropes will be developed for the above purposes.

The intial step will be to forge a MVP Lycanthrope template that Goblinworks can deploy so that in game our Cooperative can get to work and make good use of. This would appear to be:

MPV Lyanthrope =

1. Wolf model (already developed)
2. Phases of the moon (need to check if Goblinworks are going to implement this graphically or if we can just go by the internal calendar of the game's clock)
3. Stats of the wolf and attack abilities (Could be the same as Monster Cast for the wolf model)
4. Corpse Eating (ideally we'd get some kind of animation here or just attack corpse + buff effect several times in repetition)
5. The account management might be the area with the most initial cost to allocate members this ability for their characters. Needs discussion with Goblinworks.


Background: I'd taken a look at various CC's and will probably find one or two to join as a normal character. I like the looks of for example:

1. The Forgeholm (dwarf settlement)
2. The keepers of the forest group
3. The barbarian group

etc. These all look appealing. But the early stage of this game, gives me hope and inspiration to create something too... and that is why my character will be a loyal member of these groups but underneath a darkness will be gnawing away, a terrible addition that needs feeding every full moon and ideally in secret from my loyal friends and fellow compansions. An alter-ego with a terrible hunger! A curse under the pale light of the moon.

Anyway, background aside, the main priority will be to develop these ideas into a fully codified form and thereby present something substantial to which people might like to join this doomed (and cursed) adventure with me?

There's one caveat, due to the nature of the RP required, I will only be accepting applications from members on the boards who I have followed their history of and can vouch that I can make a good working relationship based on trust with from their proven history. If any newbs like this idea, then I'll have to postpone your application until I have a full history of your character with which to measure your worthiness to join if that does not sound too high and mighty, at this early stage.

Finally, rival cooperatives that wish to engage with Goblinworks in a Lycanthrope or other form of Franchise are very much welcomed! This is in keeping with the Lycanthrope way of fighting for supremacy and dismembering and devouring the loser in such a fight.

The first thing to do will be to develop the Lycanthrope scene for PFO players. This will gain attention and interest from which we might be able to create a platform engage Goblinworks more seriously (and grow a group out of) on a quote for the MVP Lycanthrope for our Cooperative and also collaborate on the Franchise to be written into our account membership in-game, if all goes well. If not, the theory-crafting will be a lot of fun nonetheless ie the journey if the destination proves unreachable.

Goblin Squad Member

Summersnow wrote:

Assuming new races/classes won't be part of the normal development cycle covered by whatever subscription /fees GW already has in mind for the game and additional funding is needed I'd rather see something along the lines of a pre-order system via the microtrans store to crowdfund the race/class then what you are suggesting.

I don't mind players crowdsourcing the ideas and content development but I can't see any company allowing a small group of individuals to have the kind of control you want over in game content especially when the exclusivity you seek could cost the parent company, GW in this case, existing and new subscribers and a loss of income on top of the potential income they could generate selling content to everyone.

Summed up well. The idea in-part formed from this great article on depth vs breadth and wondering in part amongst other ideas how to solve it:-

1) Quality (& hence value) of adding many systems in a game concerning breadth
2) Emergent Behaviour, regulating this (use players by exclusivity)
3) Competition from divergent parts of the population on priority (provide a group a specific target and industry in a given direction):

By contrast, broad games have a broad player base as well, and all of them want more and more interesting things to do when they consume their favorite kind of gameplay. In Ultima Online, crafters and tamers demanded as much design attention as combatants, and I'm sure the same can be said in Free Realms for fans of the soccer and mail delivery games. It is harder to improve the game on multiple tracks, and keep all fan bases happy while still maintaining the game's core balance integrity. Adding new features and game systems to increase the breadth of the game is always an option, and is typically popular, but it also risks increasing the complexity of the game -- increasing the number of unexpected interactions that need to be considered, balanced for, and tested.

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
It's a neat idea, but I don't think it would work in this game.

I'm not sure at this moment it will work, but seeing if it might! For example Kobolds, you'd need to find out how they should fit in the PFO game, perhaps they are as easy as another main race? Or perhaps they are like Goblins with some limitations but again could be part of the settlement wars? Or idk enough about them, maybe they are a lower category down and hence a different solution to their implementation is required such as limited proportional population, specific areas of the game world, specific activities absord these creature's time and energies? What would be the MVP of Kobolds? How many players would a Kobold Collective need to gain support (and chipping in) from to get to that MVP stage?

And finally wouldn't it be fun to be a 3rd party working with Goblinworks to formulate the concept of these characters into the game.

Goblin Squad Member

Notmyrealname wrote:

You seem to see content development as the end game and do not see it as a way to grow the player base over time by making the game world more interesting to a larger group who will pay to get it all.

Putting some game content in the hands of a few would take away from what would make PFO interesting to a larger player base in the long run and make the game less profitable and have less content for those that play without paying into a co-op.

GW would have to limit what a co-op can buy or they will be losing content that they would market to the entire player base. In effect a co-op could only purchase game content that GW was not planning on using or GW is giving away long term profit potential from many for a one time payment by a few people.

Suppose GW sells playable goblins to a co-op , they have now financed the development but given up future profit for themselves from new players who subscribe to play a goblin.

It's all just my opinion on what works , if GW can't market new content to everyone they will struggle to survive. We all have our hopes set on future content being added so we are willing to put up with less than we want.

Well argued. For the main game, the main races and roles are available. I think this is main concern.

For the support cast, they don't fit into the above if they are implemented properly or they do in a limited fashion, for example Goblins don't have access to LG if I'm correct on that or some other difference that none of the other main races have.

To take the vampire and Lycanthrope examples these are in those forms monsters and hence are and should be even more limited again.

But this fits with a smaller controlling group of players who invest and run these operations as part-time monsters eg full moon or some moonless nights for vampires as additions to their main character. Expanding their role to that of main cast main races both does not fit the lore of the world (the correct frame of reference for these actors) nor does it make it possible to ensure a tight-knit group runs these characters according to the appropriate limitations as part of the game world and as part of their own (if you like) secret society meeting to further the actual operation of these characters in our construct world as well as brainstorming suggests to Goblinworks for development according to incremental additions.

But I think Decius has come to the sharp end of this idea, if the initial feasibility is not possible. That makes or breaks it. Of course a sudden surge in support might help!

Coming back to exclusive putting people off, to my mind there's a functional reason (RP tightly controlled above) but also the fact these Franchises are not part of the main game and are merely for groups to add additional membership bodies towards regulating in game as part of bringing the world alive, they're mostly providing CONTENT for other players in the main cast/main races aspect of the game. They fit a smaller niche, separate to the settlement game that all races can interact in how they wish.

I think once people get over the notion that all the game is open to them, and realize different people will labour at different things to bring the whole together everyone benefits? What might happen for example the Vampires due to their low proportion when adding new members might charge more to those members if competition for places is higher and that then can feed into funding for the Franchise? Part of it might be a standing fee to Goblinworks and part of it pooling towards development goals - it depends how realistic some of those goals are.

This approach as you can see has limitations, but I don't believe we'll get anywhere on this subject merely putting it up to the full population, it turns into everyone gets something or no-one does, instead of a specific passionate focused group get something that enables them to grow their group around a bare-bones, workable concept and focus their energies around developing and running it and indirectly benefitting everyone else as "content".

On Goblins the Franchise can vary per specific case by case example. Goblins could easily gain huge support and even if initially limited could develop to a point where they become more open. It depends how well they as a race are to integrate into the settlement wars is my guess. Initially I'd see them as being a player run faction/escalation. But someone else will have to come up and collude on that "franchise" with Goblinworks.

I'm going to work on Lycanthropes as first mover!

Goblin Squad Member

Doggan wrote:
AvenaOats wrote:
There's no hint of P2W
I'm going to stop you right there. You used Werewolves as an example. But also referred to vampires and liches. These are things that, yes, come with drawbacks. However they also (straight up looking at Pathfinder lore and mechanics themselves) are far more powerful than their normal Human/Elf/Dwarf/short people counterparts. Far more powerful.

PFO has already modified a great deal of Pathfinder IP to make the transition online if you check back briefly... I think pulling out P2W is still a knee-jerk comment where/who-ever it is found without suitable construction of argument?

But - the point is taken where you provide useful feedback, considering relative power, so we can work together on this aspect you raise as a important area to think about. And that is why if we go with the nature of these things, they need to be limited in number at any one time both to represent them faithfully but also for game purposes if they are dangerous and they will be if players are RP'ing them faithfully - oh yes no puny AI!

Doggan wrote:
But that's why the subscription model exists. It allows for steady revenue and the ability to continue to add content to the game.

It does for the wider universal crowdforging. But this motion is only just beginning for this direction.

Goblin Squad Member

On the one hand it's good to see people become uncomfortable at this proposition (as above) but on the other it may be a sign of bad communication from the OP.

There's no hint of P2W, it's expansion of content and monetization of content... but really the core of the idea is about human organization producing positive results, enabled by a few additions by Goblinworks so that humans organizing support cast ie content for others but experience for themselves under the franchise contract rules. I'd suggest it's super-sub level of payment for access for example analogous to paying for an uber-spaceship on sale for say $150 per person.

The problem being, a different gradual financing and developing approach is needed as we don't have SC's astronomical level of interest (McQuaid: "I should have got into the spaceships business.") where Goblinworks can churn out these things per 1m$ reached. There's also the fact these characters are part of drama by playing roles, eg vampires need to be bloodsucking and not chilling in the pub with a bloody-mary at last orders, maybe in a Pratchett novel but in a Golarion setting I believe they are predators of the unwary during moonless nights in Sylvan forests.

Goblin Squad Member

There's a certain attempt to build sub-communities as per a Franchise that is a part of the proportion of the total population. That could vary between different character concepts. Perhaps a Liche would be extremely rare whereas Goblins might be a full settlement aping an escalation settlement. I think the idea is to ensure that each community is answerable to itself and this is why the exclusivity is necessary and that community members could be a part of all or any other settlement/CC player-group and any of these Franchises on the side.

The time-limit is something considered already and so it's good to see others thinking along these lines too. But I think expansion is the answer, ie expansion of the player population base to increases spaces per franchise and also expansion of more franchises depending on if there are enough of the community that want to crowdforge their own "3rd party" aspect and bring it alive in the PFO game world and run it. More common races might be a time-limit one with earlier members forging these and then upgrade subs allowing membership, again depending on what makes sense to their particular frame-of-reference as Golarion actors. Goblins could ape their own settlements find small niches in other settlements eg rubbish dumps etc so time-limit might work for that franchise and others?

Goblin Squad Member


The idea has a HIGH risk rate of turning folks off the game, and will divide the community a lot.

This idea is like the vocal minorities getting what they want while the majority don't like it, but say nothing so they don't appear like a jerk.

Further more groups paying for mechanics only they would use, will make other players view them as privileged butt-holes wrecking the game and Goblin Works as a greedy corrupt company thinking about getting your money at the expense of the other players.

Hence why I say this is an awful idea.

Pay to win is a losing idea that destroys games. And that's what this reeks of to me.
I agree with the above statement 200%

That's (all the above responses) has pretty much already been said of the current plan, I think is accurate? I've read enough comments on PFO by people to come to that conclusion with confidence. Raise P2W yet don't mention Richard Bartle's recent prediction on F2P or Dancey's Hybrid model and the huge potential for paying customers above and below the standard sub price...

We'll see, the paradigm shift I'm looking out for here, is main cast and support cast and bringing the theatre of the mind into what is currently viewed as Fantasy EVE ie spreadsheets in settlements.

The cost of a limited audience I don't think is a perceptial one but a financial feasibility one, offset to my mind by a benefit of stronger RP and community initiative around a targetted area of the IP.

That is a summary of the argument I am try to convey. I hope to continue to and I hope there is more constructive criticism of it. Most ideas fail afterall. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Tbh, that accusation has already been made about the base MVP of PFO. You have to start somewhere. For those that want character concepts and are willing to pay for them/work on them it may be an attenuated solution that finally delivers.

To me, a wolf + corpse feed + full moon is more than enough to work with for Lycanthropes along with forging a community around that concept. Other concepts may have more initial entry conditions or if lucky less.

The key however, is the smaller number of players working on this and running it in a form that benefits the game world and allows them to run a concept they would prefer to have an option on.

The traditional approach of eg ESO werewolves or SWTOR Jedi is incredibly poor service to those IPs or character concepts, and hence to the fans. The way I see it, in Pathfinder different 3rd parties can work on these things and release them. Let's see if such an approach is possible with PFO?

Goblin Squad Member

So good conversation, the feasibility is the first step on the road.

The idea here is to ape an MVP approach, to ape a crowdfunding and crowdsourcing (aka crowdforging) approach and to solve how to include certain character concepts with market appeal in a suitable manner eg Jedi are rare as per the lore.

Using the eg of Lycanthropes, as above:

1. MVP = wolf model + lunar cycle + corpse eating + membership

That is the basic version suggested. So the art assets are reduced considerable using work already available. Ownership needs to be controlled and monetized via a franchise, this allows the work of the AI to shift onto players ie no cost and also for players to regulate this usage with their own rules for members to perform the role suitably. Again mininum required from the devs and more put on the shoulders of the player cooperate to cooperate. The additional cost would be to pool towards future work, perhaps art or audio or a feat or two. Stuff the cooperative could work and pay a minor addition monthly towards. The account management could be universal framework for other franchises for other groups and would be a Gonlinworks cost but a functionality for groups to regulate their concept's roles in the game.

But it would depend how feasible a very basic version could be provided and if Goblinworks see a fruitful investment in franchises where players cooperate in forging future additional roles for these minor / support cast (other races, templates etc) for eg vampires would need a particular blood-sucking animation as an MVP and some attack stat boost and perhaps daylight toast!

As to the wolf form, imo as a basic starter it is fine for the werewolf. If successful a hybrid animation could be considered. But basic outline of transformation + lunar cycle + corpse feasting seems very do-able? If so and a cooperative could set up maybe the first of many?

Goblin Squad Member

That's right, it's effectively licensed during the contract which has funded it up to a certain point of development and can be taken on by different members in the current cooperative or a new one if that folds. It's also intended not to be a static relationship but one where members are arguing their corner and that probably has it's own internal dramas, all healthy stuff. Neither is it a replacement for the main drama of the main races struggles with settlements. For example a lycanthrope can be such and be any (or most of) the other alignments and player groups bar a few moons per month. Other concepts would ideally "fit" alongside in minor manner too. For example Vampires might have a blood quotient per month instead and only be active after dark. Other concepts may have different approaches, perhaps alts for say Goblins if they create their habitations, perhaps even aping certain escalation processes?

The idea here is to focus on a part of the community that focuses on a part of crowdforging. Secondly there's an attempt to reintroduce genuine RP and theatre of the mind (as well as the gamer type who likes the more crunchy stuff of domination which PFO is already catering for with the main races (main cast). Part of the idea of player-ownership is the choreography of rules of acting on these character concepts by a small group with a high level of agreement to meet certain standards that could not be worked into the implementation without this human-level of interaction and agreement and coordination and mutual shared partnership.

Goblin Squad Member

Demon Gate wrote:

I did say "tear to pieces", not "see a corpse 400m away and wrinkle your nose at it." But thanks for reading.

To add: I expect there should be strong resistance to the notion of Goblinworks "selling off aspects/parts" of the game to certain parts of the player-base. I hope it's a suitably contentious idea that your purchase of access to the game world is not the same as purchase of rights to all of it?

Goblin Squad Member

To bypass the wall of text for a quick impression:-

A fictional sequence of events:

1. AvenaOats asks Goblinworks how much it would cost to implement changing a player into a wolf with an account system
2. There could be a minor sub option to finance this option in addition to skill-training.
3. The franchise for say Lycanthropes is signed between AvenaOats and Goblinworks after a detailed schema of how this template would perform in game.
4. AvenaOats headhunts other players who want to be part of this cooperative who own the license to the Lycanthrope franchise in game exclusively and who wish to fund it's continued development from basic eg wolf form and suitable stats towards eg what is perhaps envisioned in "Marchen der Daemonwulf" with fully over 50 feats etc etc.
5. This process is replicated for other races and templates with a/c management and other necessary dev stuff.
6. Part of the exclusivity contract includes code of conduct of such players performing these roles as per "good form" according to the lore. It also limits the player population of such cooperatives proportional to the total population in some suitable measure.

To me this suggests a method of implementing more, crowdforging specifically sub-commmunities, using the principles of gradualism of development and parallel funding with development that we've already seen. It also explores ways in which different players can contribute to the drama in different societies atst as being normal members of the main drama (dominination and settlement acquisition).

Tear to pieces as you see fit.

Goblin Squad Member

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##How can this be done: A first draft blueprint##

There's two rationales for how this might be done:

1. As per kickstarter and crowdforging, this application of turning a major event into a number of smaller processes leading to solution that
mixes development and monetization.

2. As per Star Citizen, offering for sale the prospect of different space-ships or in the case of Pathfinder different Races or Templates, I feel if done in such a way that expands in-game interaction options to create a new experience / relationship with other races/characters has strong monetization and pulling power potential.

The key to integrate any deviation from the standard races is to create a shadow-system that aligns with the progression system in some fashion
so that monetization of the character continues as well as power/social/money progression of the player's character that drives the motivation for their characters' ACT-ions ie acting according to a rational basis as humans (OOC) and as actors according to a rational basis as characters in Golarion (IC).

Again I come up with 2 main approaches to HOW this could be done according to 1) Monetization 2) Development both in tandem. I will use a eg as a demonstration or exemplar of how such a system would work both as a concept and in this particular case organizing the details to work consistently.

##An Example using Lycanthropy##

In this example I use as the core/key design material from Pathfinder: ""A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen der Daemonwulf ~ Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway"

1) Monetization:-

(A) The Player Cooperative:

Here a player cooperative forms around a concept of character that they wish to become an actor in the game world. The cooperative comes up with a schema of how the character concept can be designed to fit within the game and gradually introduced in small increments. This schema is checked by Goblinworks and if approved or approved after feedback/modifications, becomes a formal FRANCHISE owned by that player cooperative.

(B) The Goblinworks Franchise:

This is the schema or rules and development pathway agreed between the Cooperative and Goblinworks and the exclusive rights of a given area to develop according to this
partnership is forged.

For example using the stated exemplar to illustrate this...

player or forum-user "AvenaOats" comes up with the idea that their character could choose all sorts of interesting roles and intends to skill-train those in game as per the xp cash-rate of skill-training progression. There are some interesting options for this character to choose with a diverse set of settlements and player groups. Some in particular catch this potential player's notice: A barbarian-focused group, a dward-based settlement and a bunch who form around the concept of "protectors of nature". These all are possible options for a particular character. It is heart-warming to decide between such
riches and interesting concepts...

Yet, the subject of lycanthropy was raised and this raises some interesting questions, a challenge perhaps for this player to form their small group and vision to fit in the world of Golarion, to be more proactive in choosing the destiny they wish to script to allow a particular character concept to breath life into the game world. How to achieve such a daunting undertaking? Especially as the limits of character concepts appear to have been met and set?

Let's read up how others have successfully implemented Lycanthropes in Pathfinder the role-playing game for advice. Then what is the most basic form of this that the devs could manage to add to the
game and what sort of fee might that entail? Then the process of drumming up interest for this new group begins and with it joint ownership and exlclusive control of access and running according to appropriate acting roles/rules of Lycanthropes as properly detailed in the design schema.

For example the most basic form of lycanthropy might be to be able to change the player character into a wolf model during the full moon. This would be a workable basis to start from and a quote from Goblinworks to use as a banner for similar-minded players.

There's the upfront cost that could raised in part by the "Lycanthrope Cooperative" then there's the financing options that perhaps a small percentage could be paid over time to Goblinworks by the Cooperative for exclusive rights and control of the Lycanthrope Franchise in game. A mixed model to finance the development of the basic Lycanthrope
role could then proceed.

Numbers might be ball-parked at this point. Of course it depends on the feasibility and the support achieved from such a group who could negotiate their own ways to crowdforge this particular aspect where they form around an area of common specific interest. Doubly so that the exclusivity works both for the sense of control and ownership and therefore destiny of this part of the game's design but also to actual aid in the implementation of for example the population density and actual role Lycanthropes are to be employed in the game -
properly. Hence,

2) Design:-

As mentioned above, the interaction between design and monetization proceeds in parallel. One of the great assets of this approach is some of the authorship and "buy-in" is by the newly formed Cooperative of players which may then take modifications and feed-back and final appraisal from Goblinworks. This also appears to be an evolution of the Crowdforging partnership process albeit a new branch on that tree where more universal and full player-base partnership is operating as opposed to a niche subset.

So we know how to introduce in this case Lycanthropy in a feasible (cost and dev allocation) and viable form (a wolf that can have appropriate stats and is limited to members and the cycle
of the full moon is as simple but workable as we could wish for).

Let us now focus more on the fully-fleshed design blueprint as part of the formation of a Cooperative Contract of this Franchise with Goblinworks.

Again the Pathfinder IP comes up trumps, as this sort of work has already been done to great satisfaction and therefore can be used as a basis for development towards compatibility in the Online version. So using, ""A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen derDæmonwulf ~ Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway" and summarizing:-

1. "build your own class" approach
2. distill these werewolf powers into feats, and then provide a base class which would be able to make best use of them.
3. For the most pan, these"building blocks- come in the form of feats, starting with the Curse of the Beast ( feat, which allows a character to transform into a wolf, but also forces him to deal with a number of dangerous side-effects.
4. Finally, in addition to 50 feats...
5. first and formost, Lycanthropes are melee combatants, who delight in sinking their teeth into the flesh of their foes..
6. Abilities, Class skills, Alignment, Class features (Class = Role Feature), Moon Cycle affect, devouring corpses...

This is a quick skim of the above work. This would then need to be fitted to the PFO form over subsequent support via the cooperative approach.

We have a workable introduction:-

Wolf Form + Lunar Cycle + Stat change + Consume corpse

Now we need to look at the design of Lycanthrope as an actor in our (chosen) world of Golarion and as an MMO game equally.

1. The Moon cycle (at night time) will limit the transformation which acts to regulate it usefully.
2. The Cooperative members have exclusive rights and access to this functionality, this again usefully limits the ubiquity of Lycanthropes in our world as befits the lore and the horror theme they encourage
3. I believe their fractional population again enhances their role as support-cast to add around the core population and flesh out such a mostly rare curse which makes it especial.
4. But also exclusivity allows 2 other things: Enhanced value as being exclusive but also more tight control of their role in the world by the Cooperative who admit according to the rules of in this case "The Role of The Lycanthrope":

i. The Lycanthrope must abide by the RP rules
ii. These are to assume the mantle of predator of the night and hunt other players during the full moon phase
iii. This should take priority over other concerns during this window or at least until the beast has been satiated on fallen flesh (other players, animals and mobs).
iv. Formation of packs is encouraged if roving widely in wilderness hexes.
v. Attacking indescriminantly even friends is also encouraged while in wolf form. To avoid this travel further away from your group before the full moon.
vi. When we get the audio of a wolf-howl to use this effect in range of potential prey.

The Cooperatives rules are:

i. Pay a small percentage per month to the cooperative for the upkeep of the franchise and privilege of access to the Lycanthrope form.
ii. Meet and discuss the the role of the Lycanthrope and how acting this role can be enhanced for the game world.
iii. Again work together on future development desired and invested in by the devs and cooperative members.
iv. Consider the lycanthrope population and impact and if more members/worthy members can be added given suitable passion and financial investment.

Part of the main work of the cooperative is:

1. RP of Lycanthropes in PFO suitably
2. Work on the further development from the devs on this aspect of the game as well as financing members

An eg of how Lycanthrope might be developed gradually:-

1) Wolf transformation with stats: Use current wolf model
2) Improved wolf model, slightly more were-like wolf and special graphically
3) Add progression path to Lycanthropes which consume sufficient corpses to grant feats
4) Add audio of wolf form
5) Add further lunar variation
6) Add more infrastructure for the Cooperative to finance and manage membership
7) Add a wolf pack hierarchy according to internal feuds and fights, this would be a first step to an internal world of Lycanthropes feuds and attempts at dominance amongst their kind.
8) Add curse aspects of this path in conjunction with the feats acquired - This could be part of the stick given the above carrot, the werewolf addiction to the main character, a habit the character
feels compelled to feed leading to competing interests and conflict.

##Questions and Answers##

Q: Why should Lycanthropes be singled out for special treatment?
A: This is a blueprint for other concepts equally. Lycanthropes act as an illustration exemplar of the potential for this process. An immediate additional example could easily be Vampyres or Liches or etc...

Q: But why should some players have exclusive rights and access when some players may want to play Lycanthropes?
A: MMORPGs are not democracies. Equally that means not all players and characters are or should be the same. Different character concepts and group ethos should be explored by different players according to their personalities and private wishes. Secondly as defined as support cast, this type of concept is intended to be partial representation in addition to the standard main cast and hence as per both lore and practical population dynanics must and needs to be limited proportionally but shadow the main cast of races who are free from such restraints.

Q: Isn't this too far down development to be worthy of consideration however?
A: Sandboxes require development for a widely diverse player base exhibiting different playstyle priorities. This is one way to formalize this within Crowdforging more universal systems for specific group interests. It also follows the same principles of simplicity and parallel between dev scope and player funding the growth of the bud of such smaller systems within the larger game tree.

Q: It seems very unrealistic that Goblinworks would give away control of an aspect of the game to a sub-group of players?
A: This appears to mirror the OGL of Pathfinder in a way where an independent group is able to formalize rules for a specific vision to include in players games. I also like to think that this is a method to engineer some "localism" within the game that all players investing and playing in are party to the total game's franchise. Finally, finding ways to harness players' particular passion in the game I believe is a commercially successful strategy according to the equation: "More People + More Happiness = More Wealth"

Q: I'm still dead against it being player-controlled.
A: Following from above, this imho is necessary, the drama of groups, the business opportunities and ideas over a social hang-out in game and the high-level considerations, are all very important
to the success of the implementation of the idea as well as the actual implementation possible or provided. This to me imitates how business people and such going-concerns are able to get their gossip and info
from other such people over a glass of beer or meal or coffee meeting. I think also it creates their own identity that belongs to them.

Q: So what's to stop a group claiming a cool concept for their franchise and charging extortionate amounts for it to make money?
A: We want and must avoid "rent-seeking", the return on investment for the Cooperative is the continued improvement and expression of these acting roles in the game world and the work and organization
and success at this objective of the fans that creat this sub-culture within the main game's total culture. There would need to be a contract with Goblinworks that establishes good practices and forfeiture of the
Franchise ie terms and conditions.

Q: Ok then how much are we talking about?
A: This requires consultation with Goblinworks for example the most basic goal to achieve (let's refer to the simple ability to change from a character to a wolf model during the full moon in game) We need a quote for that then the Cooperative would need to form and invite certain members to contribute to a total to invest into Goblinwork's offering a formal Franchise (in this case the exclusive rights to the Lycanthrope Franchise). This would be the beginning. Ideally the necessary account management could be built as a template for other such Franchises albeit with their own differences and details and "quotes".

##Personal in an impersonal mmo world##

Comparing the implementation of Werewolves in ESO to the above suggested route I think there is a world of difference. I believe it meets the condition of increasing the "fractal nature" of the world that has been mentioned from time to time.

Admittedly this idea pulls together disparate ideas I'd favor. But remember, different communities finding their niche is the wheel that turns the world. Some of that is economic motivation and some of it is experience and acting taking on it's own generation of content eg the by-product of such denizens on other players as a part of a living world. Ryan's mentioned systems for lots of people, in parallel, repeated lots of times. I think this fits the bill if you consider the franchise system is a blueprint where a group of players can find their niche and their acting role and thereby benefitting the full game world. Tbh I'd be happy to enjoy PFO a game world with werewolves, vampires etc even if my character was none of those things, but the real McCoy versions acted by players feeding their blood or meat addictions etc...

##Comparing to Crowdforging Criteria already set-out##

1 & 3: Exclusive and unique content is the purview of single-player games, not MMOs. Even the IDEA that you can do something exclusively or make something unique implies a design failure.

=> The idea is akin to selling spaceships as per Star Citizen only with a caveat of the Franchise system.

2: To the extent possible that's how we want to build our game - player action creates and destroys.

=> This fulfils a role of a secret society or group with it's own rules/guidelines for members

4: Everything has to have a cost otherwise there will be an infinite supply and the world will suck.

=> Franchise cost and membership allowance

5: Expect that if a thing can be done, it will be done many, many times.

=> see previous

6: Not necessarily. Some people will make art for art's sake. Some game systems exist just to be fun.

=> This fits.

This is why we need to think about systems you can do MANY TIMES and that can be done in PARALLEL by MANY PEOPLE.

1: How will this work if 50 people have to all do it in series or in parallel?

=> With the group's small size and membership according to guidelines when using such templates this needs to be human-managed and agreed according to the group's rules of conduct between themselves.

2: How would a smart player who wanted to abuse this rule exploit it to cause someone else pain?

=> Potentially only sub players +2yrs gain access to the above Franchise possibility. Trusted players need to be found to run these Franchises and have management available if a member deviates too far from the guidelines eg bounty or more.

3: What kind of behavior would naturally emerge in a world where your rule was implemented - what's the effect of your cause?

=> Spefific increase in danger during say travel in the case of Lycanthropes adding to the diversity of the world. Potential market for silver weapons.

Some guidelines to help with ideas likely to attract a lot of support from your peers:
1: Should result in a system, not a one-time action. Remember that we need things characters can do thousands of times, and by tens of thousands of characters in parallel.
2: Should create meaningful human interaction. Something you do that nobody else ever knows about isn't helpful.
3: Should involve group action. An easy way to ensure #2, and leads to interesting potential connections to large game systems like economy, warfare or hex development.
4: Should be classifiable as exploration, development, domination or adventure content.
5: The wider the set of characters that can use the idea the broader support for that idea will be. You're asking people to make either/or tradeoffs, so you need to consider who would vote for a feature for you that meant some feature for them would not happen.

To address:

1. This is a method that could scaled according to multiple races/templates even if there are population limits per category.
2. Meaningful in forming specific motivations and characters to inhabit the world as additions to the main plot-line of civilization vs wilderness. Each character (race/template may take up additional roles according to some particular motivation that is IC).
3. Yes forms a player cooperative network around a specific interest and high engagement targetted for those players to run their own subset of the game reality.
4. Given this is the support cast these roles may well be closer to exploration/adventure than the main plotline of domination though they might interact at that level marginally depending on the category. For example with a limited membership base, the resource raising to fund investment of their particular area of the game world could be a driving common motivation to provide services in game for gain.
5. This is the key, the blueprint is for expanding the market appeal but also focusing on forging specific player collectives invested in the game and in particular a specific section of it.


DeaconWulf: /38044-30320
Andius the Afflicted:
Ryan Dancey (many posts!)
Authors: Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway (Necromancers of the Northwest): A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen der Daemonwulf ~ Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway (highly recommended)
An American Werewolf In London (great fun!)
The Howling
OGL (This is a great idea)

Goblin Squad Member

Reading an article on Here's how Dungeons & Dragons is changing for its new edition demonstrates a polar competition going on as to the destiny of the game systems of DnD and perhaps Pathfinder and more generally Themepark vs Sandbox mmorpgs.

I think that perhaps the TT is more condusive to the former and the computer is perhaps more conducive to the latter. But to check if there are any lessons to be learn from the former as applied to MMORPs and PFO?

A quick description from this perspective:-

##Story and MMORPG##

The story is a sequence of events usually narrated to an audience and often concerning a particular cast of characters.

In the mmorpg the cast are obviously the player characters and the sequence of events in the sandbox are the actions of the players that then are recounted post-hoc (as compared to a themepark's ad hoc) to make sense and to "change the world" which changes for all the players. A common pitfall of mmorpgs has been to cast the players as ALL main protagonists. This does not appear to be a very fruitfall solution to scaling up the game world into a virtual world.

##Cast and MMORPG in PFO##

Here's the list of Core Races in PFO:-

  • Dwarf
  • Elf
  • Gnome
  • Half Elf
  • Half Orc
  • Halfling
  • Human

I like the list, you have sub-categories:

Material Races: Human, Dwarf, Halfling
Half Material/Fey: Half-Elf
Fey Races: Elf, Gnome
Half-Bestial: Half Orc

This shows variation of characters that derive from a larger "frame of reference" (to which they inherit such intrinsic properties that inform their thoughts and actions) with which we understand how the world of Golarion works. An important point to consider if our characters are going to be enabled to act their parts in the drama appropriately in this world. This to me is the essence of creating a virtual world of actors.

A comparison with EVE:-

From what I know of this game, all characters can be derived primarily as "characters who fly spaceships" which is close to the title of the recent documentary of this game. Hence the acting ability of these characters is very clear/universally shared. I think this might be a exaggerated difference for PFO, necessary as suggested by for example Alignment and Reputation (both from lore/setting and from practical purposes of stage management)?

##The Character's Journey##

In the mmorpg this takes the form of "progression" when compared to the narrative version. Three ways of breaking this down:-

1. Power (skill-training)
2. Social (settlements)
3. Money (resources)

The other measure that is a by-product of these achievements is fun/reward as well as the actual process towards this events

I think the above race selections are more than adequate to achieve the fun/reward for these things and the experience also being
interesting with diverse roles via skill-training. I would however like to see some form of intrinsic difference between these races manifest.

One of the notable things about these actors is that they are all part of the equation of the world where Civilization is pushing against
Wilderness. To be successful/growing whether good/evil or lawful/chaotic, this applies as groups of players scale up as per the MMO part to our
RPG adventure story. This is the main cast of our story that scales.

##The Support Cast's Entrance?##

Some of the other races that fall out of this fully from Pathfinder:


Or perhaps some of the templates as per a previous thread. What is the rationale for including more races? Again we return to the above:

>"This shows variation of characters that derive from some a larger "frame of reference" (to which they inherit such intrinsic properties that inform their thoughts and actions) with which we understand how the world of Golarion works. An important point to consider if our characters are going to be enabled to act appropriately in this world."

What I mean is that the thoughts and feelings of these variable denizens and perhaps their mode of interaction they are "fitted" for shapes the player experience and interaction options with the game world (and other players)?

In my opinion I think there are 2 key areas why these are important:-

1) Interaction change allows different relationships and different objectives

2) Frame of Reference in fantasy is often "what if... ?" questions that allude to an alternative destiny according to a different world's different rules.

I think these are powerful tools for the actor to use to construct their character and hence inhabit and breathe life into the construct
world (a mix of graphics, code/rules and immersion/imagination).

Yet the division between the support cast and the main cast suggests that solutions are required to add them to the game in such a way
that such division remains in tact but variously so on a case-by-case basis.

Why are am I gunning for the support cast? I believe as per the recent thread on "Commoners" Commoner Role & it's Disparaging Connotations our characters have a lots of potential at this level of interaction in the story and secondly as per the thread here,
My History With The Empyrean Order, Why I Created It, and Why I Left.
drama is ever important to game world full of players.

Yes the game will be systematic and crunchy, but it will need to be a theatre of the mind also it seems equally as important and lessons from the theatre, the actor, the script may apply to how we understand how PFO should develop possible.

Goblin Squad Member

The beginning of a saga?!

Tbh, I liked this post for the concept at it's core:

The concept was always the same. It existed as a group that took a primary purpose of helping others and put that before all other issues. Even the good of it's own members. It was a grouped formed for those who wanted to make it their tireless task to put their time, passion, wealth, and necks on the line to stick up for those weaker than themselves.

This is what excites me most about PFO, that different groups will form according to different visions they wish to express in the River Kingdoms.

Be what it may.

As to TEO/GL then and now... I am merely a fly on the wall. It reminds me very much of political movements however, with a visionary founder who forms the initial group around a specific ideology. The group grows, the group goes through weak times, then somehow grows again and at that point the schism occurs from either or both the original founder and the original motivating principle, perhaps certain practicalities of the present have to come into play? I know not, as I say, I am just a fly on the wall, with respect.

Putting on my strategy hat however, the corners of the EE map day 1 appear to be very good choices. One of the considerations is to maximize resource capture and ability to grow the group. During EE maybe there will be significant upheavals and different starter settlement locations may be better of changing/moving?

What seems however to be a good move:-

1. Corners
2. Friendly Neighbours

Bzzz... /the fly buzzes off.

Goblin Squad Member

Know what you mean OP. Best thing is to take your mind off a game that is hyper-anticipation - completely.

I've recently been reading a lot of books all of a sudden and gone somewhere else mentally therefore. Just finished The Dumas Club, which I got in a second hand bookshop and absolutely loved even if it was delicately balanced between frustration and elevation.

Alternatively this thread has some alternative game suggestions including some I made earlier: Here

But in the above condition I'd give all games a big break if possible and do something else, entirely: Films, sports, board-games, festivals... you name it. We have a butterfly count going on here where I live so also doing that in my spare time and even today did a bit of fossil hunting!

Be inventive. :)

Goblin Squad Member

I was browsing a book on 12th century peasantry in England; interestingly enough, in a second hand book-shop. What struck me was how much it was based on economic status of different people and in particular debt.

I think our characters will be commoners. There used to be such a thing as "The Commons" which then led to "The Tragedy of the Commons". Is "Commoner" an association of that then?

In human groups the larger they become the tranformation of specialized roles becomes necessary via "Division of Labour" for example the overhead of managing and organizing more people. Commoner is just the standard role I guess albeit everyone will think they should be "the chief and not the indian".

I quite like the medieval flavor of "Commoner". I do see the OP's point, that by today's reckoning in more developed countries that work off the basis of decreasing the size of the "lower class" as a form of continued prosperity/growth (eg education for all, social housing etc); there could be a disquiet reaction to the use of the word.

Goblin Squad Member

I wish ppl could communicate more effectively. I know I struggle most times when I post.

The objection is valid, the criticism is not. What counts is if enough ppl don't object and understand the real criticism.

To me, that is how successful at formulating an online community where graphics are one component eg net hack still goes "strong".

Goblin Squad Member

My first impression is that the art style (particularly more muted/sombre color hues) is the right aesthetic to be appealing to people interested in this genre for mmorpgs.

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:

I actually did the same search, I found only the WereBear is good aligned, and surprisingly Lawful Good.

Yeah, that's what I assumed the god's text was mainly referring to.

AvenaOats wrote:
I'm not sure if it is intentional or not, but the above is another brilliant example of themepark design of mmorpgs where you are told what the world is like.
That's not a themepark-only rule. We are going to be in a setting of Paizo's creation. If you want to create your own world and lore, play Minecraft with some friends. ;P

A given assumption.

Goblin Squad Member

Shane Gifford of Fidelis wrote:
Saying playing a sandbox allows us to define the lore means that we shouldn't use an established lore

That is not what I said nor advocated. I did put the suggestion out there that thinking differently between themepark and sandbox is needed, not to be confused with "sandbox means I can do what I like". I think the lore, the code all have to be part of the solution of course.

I'm only commenting here, because I'd like to spend some time presenting a solution fully thought out. It's worth a shot, and might be creative which itself is it's own reward, truth be told!

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