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Is Goblinworks willing to get to a better stage in another month, then not charge for the next month when into EE? Then start charging 1 month or 2 in?
That way: 1 month to get the game into playable state. Another month to get players playing and advancing but not paying. Then with those 2 months, should be about right to start charging if things go well?
Theoretical suggestion because I can't make a judgement without seeing the game or playing it.
I did think the email invite timeline looked promising however for providing some interesting gameplay when settlements start claiming and clashing over land.
Raph Koster wrote:
Out of interest:
The concept is good as you can tell. But the implementation is obviously combat only. Again the animation is good concerning running on all fours more as a wolf-hybrid BEAST. I prefer this visual representation and slant towards more "inner beast" and less humanoid-form that is seen in the picture at mmorpg.com. The behavior needs to then match it.
The Keystone of the Cooperative is the Werewolf concept which is built around THE ROLE being the focus and source to derive everything else from, not the combat machine, though as a perfect fit for PvP gameplay that will also be important for gameplay.
The way ESO has developed their Werewolf shows there's a market for them but it also highlights the limitations of their design practice and philosophy.
I want to see PFO hold the best Werewolves in all fantasy mmorpgs. Second I want this model to be a template for future player initiatives.
I played an mmo where it was released with the core gameloop and a small world in tact and it was fun. It only had a few levels and enough items but it worked. Over time it gradually expanded which was really nice.
I think that's the litmus test: That the core game loop actually works as a game and then stuff is built around it over time.
I watched Andius' video on youtube with melee and that was taken a few weeks ago, and the animations were still out of phase with the combat resolution per "round". The grass also had that sea-floor syncronized sway which again just did not feel like it was finished either.
If PFO achieves that status I'll be happy to play, but not before to be honest. I also think it's important for players to be able to coordinate around their settlements as a major gameplay driver: IE talking and coordinating with their community as "gameplay" with "goals" for the group emerging.
Hauling by beasts of burden too would be a major game system to get in as valuable/vulnerable targets but the major way for bulk materials to be transported "long-distance".
@Kelpie, oh aye, I agree with you about stepping up communication, definitely. I'm a bit disappointed with the Goblin Squad status and receiving all the new info first and so on over the last 12 months for example. I don't really feel there's been any major use of that with inside the dev's engine room type off-the-wall stuff.
But saying that, I don't expect much communication at this point in time before launch where the devs are in the trenches (probably with trenchfoot by now!). I bet the tech issues of a single shard world and pulling all the pieces together is likely 90% of any reason for lite communication?
That said the devs still Q&A on these forums so it's not nothing either and their head count is deliberately kept as low as possible. Nice things to have etc. Didn't Ryan say he's like wearing a black hat, a green base-ball cap, a jesters crown and a moose's antlers, already?! :D
I couldn't resist posting a very mild update and proffer excuses for delays (working on 4 low-paid jobs atm, doing 2 online study courses and not making much progress on any of them (!) atst as hopping about in accommodation, so I hope despite my wittering writing style my excuses are at least solid).
This project is still slinking around in the shadows... I've managed to finally get back to work on the Cooperative's Blueprint document which when finished I'll be sharing with other members of the Cooperative who I've also selected as Board of Directors members given their founding interest (which I'm hoping will prevail during these early, incipient days when PFO is still more promise than successful premise). I hope their input can then take the vision into blueprint and thence final form as the process of devolving into the community, the cooperative, takes it's first steps.
Given a rise in debate on the merits of PFO compared to other games as the implementation of the tech is still reportedly fairly raw, it's worth noting there really is a market for this game as evidenced by the periodic repetition of such threads of discussion on mmorpgs variously around the internet such as this one:-
Are there any games/communities around that actually cater to RPG style gameplay these days or should I just give up on MMO's?
The way I've conceptualized the merit of PFO's design (tech's another question) as previously in these threads:-
I think the idea here as per the above Fractal exposition is post-hoc emergence will be the full reward of the game spread over a longer timescale of gratification than for example visceral combat. Yet the moment to moment phases of fun are important to addressing the simple question of any game: "Is it any fun?"
Here, this is my personal attempt to address this question via as per the FAQ the concept of "Playing A Role" that Ryan's mentioned before along the lines of a more player-driven gameplay source:-
I think this can be where PFO shines compared to other games. Again positive indications come from for ESO who not only use the Vampire/Werewolf Templates but have recently added the "Enforcer/Outlaw" Roles for players.
You'll notice PFO is taking this idea forwards a great deal more and again this provides some confidence in the direction GW wishes to take PFO.
This is not idle academic "on paper" discussion either, to make the case for this concept that it fits within the above idea of player roles, here is an idea which is about "playing a role" about the player community crowdforging this role, providing the role designed and eventually implemented in far superior form and fidelity than can be managed in any other mmorpg. Perhaps it's been overlooked that one of the main reasons this has not happened before is due to the pre-eminence of the demand-supply relationship in dictating a game's design and development.
This Cooperative Player Group will not be functioning on that basis but using a different paradigm to pursue growth and achievement of our goals and ultimately satisfaction in the total PFO Community over the feature we're attempting to create here.
Let's just cast our minds into the distant future; a future where the Cooperative player initiative group (The Shadow of the Beast) has been successful and the results:-
For 3 Nights per month, during the full moon, additional content in faithful flavor and lore and imagination of Pathfinder is added to the game for the entire playerbase to enjoy. This content consists of the most sophisticated AI in any mmorpg ever implemented, supported by a system that is player-created, player-funded and makes Goblinworks more money as well as an advertisement of the virtues of their crowdforging development process and player-driven gameplay
Hehe, that's sure crossing the divide (in more dimensions than one)!
Enough of the old dry dusty discussion, here's some (purdy pictures) visualizations I was looking at.
The Bones/Reaper Miniature that seems associated with Paizo games and it's a very decent artistic representation of Werewolf I'm happy to see:-
And wondering what our Werewolf will look like as per "seeing is believing" I dug around in the Unity Asset store and found what is rudimentary possible with pricing (albeit this is not discussion implementation from this source merely what could be done as an MVP Werewolf visual form post Druidic Wildshape):-
Unity Werewolf Hybrid Showcase (unity webplayer player manipulation demo)
Unity Wolf Showcase (unity webplayer player manipulation demo)
To finally finish with a flourish, I've put a bit of thought into this and how all the components add together. I think they all combine and fall into place like some sort of deductive formulae funnily enough. Or might have just gone barking mad...
T7V Avari wrote:
Anybody else find it odd Golarion only has one moon. What kind of fantasy planet only has one moon? Who made that choice?
It's phases coincide with our own Earth's out of interest:-
James Jacobs wrote:
Yup; the moon above Golarion has the same phases and timing and all that as Earth's. Which is partially why Golarion's calendar matches the standard on Earth.
You'all can have The River Kingdoms... I've set my sights much higher. ;)
Hardin Steele wrote:
Gloria Victus too. These fast combat, nice graphics and/or survival/combat sandbox indie games will probably look better than PFO initially but not scale as well if PFO manages to grow is how I see it as per your mention of community.
I hope PFO EE can provide some opportunities for player created initiatives to differentiate what is possible in this game from such other (additionally interesting) indie titles.
I'm working on one such idea though with several new jobs and applications and moving sticks it's been slower going lately.
That's true. More the features within the hex than changing the hex type or borders if it's a gradient boundary. Still that would have a minor effect too, but on everyone and different conditions overall I think would keep the "outback/bush" feeling wild. Call it such an approximation of the challenge of travel in pre-civilization days / off-road.
I thought Escalations were supposed to be mass group activities to deal with effectively?
The old, going out into the wilds in a small party adventuring = butchering massed ranks of mobs seems like an outmoded game system to me.
I was hoping Escalations are major disruption events to players groups logistical operations?
Specializing in killing unique critters seems more like adventure content to me? Ie finding, beating them. More of a pokemon skill-training activity: Gotta kill 'em all.
Pyronous Rath wrote:
It's probably an issue considering Themeparks have traditionally out-sold Sandboxes due to deep and narrow combat design focus even WOW's tab-target +75 Skill Abstraction. But I think with PFO, it is necessary due to technical reasons predominantly; it is a closer fit to provide higher Skill Abstraction to allow players more time to make decisions; it fits a long-term character-rpg growth model and hence market of players also.
That's not to say I would not prefer a sort of Mount And Blade combat system of slicing and dicing enemies but given the wider context of PFO where combat characters and groups of characters is a part of the game systems mainly concerned with changing the world's status between different groups, you probably appreciate why tab-target combat is chosen.
And it's another design feature that is standardized/expected which reduces risk for GW atst as they attempt a lot of risky things. IE FPS games have a simple interface dedicated to combat and player skill and do a superior job of designing it. Again to reinforce the RPG style of combat, you have the party with specializations working together to overcome different problems: Mismatch, Synergy, Positional based off time and distance and inflicting damage to zero first.
This excellent blog post makes this very clear:-
The archetypes interacting in combat is just ONE EXPRESSION of these characters. If combat is boiled down extremely you lose some of these attributes and end up with the rock-paper-scissors (DPS, Tank, Healer). Combat is one type of problem to solve, afterall and teamwork/smarts being rewarded is very fun.
For example I want to find in the game to express a particular playstyle I'm attempting to conceptualize. This has a basis in all sorts of things, and the actual combat of this role is only one aspect of the full archetype albeit still important. But I think the actual context of the role to the combat in this example to illustrate the above, is MORE important to enjoyment than the content of the combat mechanics. Without the right approach to character creation, the role loses a lot of meaning and it's "place in the world" of PFO.
But yeah I can appreciate tab-target may in EE with less game be harder to bear.
Doc || GenAknosc wrote:
Generally the system I use to mention PFO:-
1. Look for suitable/specific tags:-
2. Avoid specific tags:-
3. Provide a range of suggestions including PFO amongst others eg Repopulation, Camelot Unchained (RvR), SC, Shards, Darkfall, EVE ie a cluster of Sandbox options
4. Highlight specific features as per the poster that align with PFO and link to the relevant blog.
5. Never ever hype PFO, merely suggest, offer as a possible match out of a range.
6. Balance as well as match by referring to: reduced feature set, sub price, graphics being poorer than other mmorpgs
Generally find most people have a low awareness about the mmorpg genre or at least a low tolerance threshold to sub-par graphics and high content. Those that by-pass this often talk about SWG, UO, EVE, Darkfall, Mortal Online and then the conversation can often be productive.
I think a lot of comments will hit a brick-wall concerning "poor graphics" and "rip-off alpha packages/marketing of false promises" in contrast to the holy grail of the next big release. Focused/targeted communication of PFO is best or else not mention it as hype is hype.
Imo word of mouth from player groups who control settlements and have their heraldry banners and flags, motifs/mottos and numerous roles for recruiting in contention with other such groups would be highly effective at attracting attention if not further interest which would it seems to me depend on story generation of emergent gameplay to get player word of mouth raving.
I'd find it quite funny if the New Player Experience was a journey to get to the River Kingdoms in the first place with an opportunity for some other players to help them at different intervals?
Some new players might fail a few times and seek "help" in their journey. Perhaps some players lend a steed and some guards etc? Or a map or some other useful thing. Or leave messages about where to find their settlement. Maybe an Inn or two along the way to provide food and rest and repairs etc?
This reddit response summarized their reasons for quiting after 4 months and deciding they should have quit after 2 months. Which seems the more usual Themepark playing time these days:-
I'm sure Wildstar has many interesting things and well-developed features. But the overall game design model aka Themepark model seems to have less legs than it used to, more competition and a more transient playing population (Content Locusts Swarming, Stripping then following the wind to the new rains and fresh growth phenomenon).
I'm guessing Archeage had something of a similar problem with bumping from the original 5 Western servers due to queues etc then eventually having to work on consolidating populations? Certainly Wildstar is/was aiming for Megaserver solution to those problems which again causes player community issues, even if it resolves the busy vs empty conundrum of different shard versions it leads to a nebulous sense of community which itself is imperfect for a community.
Some people say a mmorpg is an online chat forum first and combat/gameplay second. Something to be said for designing around this?
...which is where I was trying to go, however ineptly or offensively, with what I was saying. We have our part to do, and so much of the 'worth' of PFO will be dependent more on us than on the developer.
Imo one of the USP's of EE PFO will be the great community we find here. Guess I've invested a few years into the community already. :)
Well you take the suggestion with good humor and put me to rights where I could simply have said "I was confused by some of your commentary", :-). Maybe I'm the one making a meal of things here, hehe, but I notice in mmorpg forums a substantial lack of accurate articulation when players want to discuss what they find lacking in the genre and equally what they grope towards wanting more of. Of course there's sometimes the complete opposite and searing light of clarity of expression and vision breaks through.
Where does such random musings fit into the thread? Well, it could be argued the Carbine devs decided there was a substantial market of players who clearly expressed a desire to play a game such as Wildstar, so much so they were willing to put a business plan together for the above game's budget, which a quick google search indicates was in development for 7 years on a budget of 50-70m$ region. It's not an issue if that cursory spot-check is wrong, the ball-park is more than enough.
Of course the problem seems to be that perhaps the market was smaller than estimated and equally continued to decline over the course of the apparently long development.
So what can be done? Well we see with PFO that it starts small and can iterate development and hence vision over time. I think there is vision here and if one word were to summarize it which Ryan has used often:-
Maybe if you look at the fractal picture quickly you only see a weird and definite shape. Were you to look closer you'd see how crazy these shapes really are... and they're all over nature, funnily enough!
Here's the picture again:-
Fractal: "HEX -> Settlement -> Buildings -> Character Roles"
the ability to think about or plan the future with imagination or wisdom.
I think it boils down very elgantly.
Let's look again: Hexes, they are dynamic and modular and help create a highly changeable world.
Tbh I find your communication above not very conducive to discussion it's garbled without pausing to structure a coherent line of thinking, but you asked a very fair question so I felt compelled to answer it, not to attempt to sway you with hype nor tell you what PFO is or should be, but what it could be... and perhaps you failed to recognize that or use your imagination in response to it?
>" I was actually hoping for a game more similar to a table top, with more depth."
I'd say the Tabletop can provide that. They are really great gaming resources from what I've read.
I feel that the specialness comes less from raw game play than vision. I haven't heard any magic words from PFO staff about their vision. That may be an issue. I understand there is hype, but have we even heard a speech on "What will make PFO different?" Other than, you know, it has words you will recognize if you've played dnd.
Are you reading the blogs and some of the dev posts?
I would concede that Goblinworks website although improved is still very unappealing in selling the vision so maybe that is what you are referring to? But then that needs to be tempered with what is actually visible to show I'd also caution so they can't oversell the current state of the game either.
You'll find a lot of players wanting more freedom in mmorpgs albeit fearful of what you mention ganking and hacking and aversive to poor performance from bugginess. You can see this with requests for "EVE Fantasy" all over the place, in fact. Usually such requests fail to categorize what it is about EVE that makes it work. PFO does have those features albeit it has the fortune to come after EVE and see ways of developing the game and culture in different directions that are more socially inclusive perhaps?
Anyway if you want vision, I'd say PFO has it in particular:-
1. Hexes (World)
Those immediately kick-ass imo. At each level there's multiple possibilities of extension and integration of systems. Let's take some examples shall we?
1. We could have Mountain Hexes where it snows highly frequently which is lethal to characters without the right furs and outdoor gear as well as different requirements for survial.
At each level there's so much that could be extended and developed.
*AvenaOats' eyes narrow sharply, and shift rapidly left and right and back-again*
I'm seriously going to have to dig into all these, thanks for sharing those 3 links in particular (they're all excellent and book-marked). It's really "luciferase?" to explore such world-building, I find. Difficult to find the right word. :)
I know the "unwritten rules" on story-telling just about enough to know that I'm now compelled to return the favor... and not to, some sort of curse will afflict me? However I can invoke the rule that allows the teller of a tale to avoid an anti-climax, which let's me off the hook (only just!). The small secret, a mere trifle compared to the grand designs of dieties, is in part Paizo lore/cannon and in part a tiny sprinkle of spice added... connecting the dots in the lore, while I was doing some research on a number of werewolf materials. To stick to story and not enter the territory of "sale" given this is a favored and focused subject, it concerns the mythology of these beings and their origins. I think something very interesting is buried within it that is somewhat "original" and remains veiled. When a story fits together so well and yet has not been uttered... is it begging to be told or is there a calamitous reason it has not been told? That worries me, but I have a hunch it's the former in this case. Afterall, a good story has to start with ONE set of footprints, doesn't it?
This world-building is very appealing, very artful!
I did find out one nugget of info on Pathfinder's world-building that had me salivating due to it's secrecy... !
Well although what you write is very informative, eg "calcuated whackiness" resonates, I think Being was definitely on the right tracks, you can sometimes tell a lot about a game's aesthetics that inform "deeper" intentions of how the game is played and hence what the perhaps you can call it "design philosophy" is actually trying to say to the player and community?
Personally a grittier art style for PFO would be fine by me, but I see they're attempting to keep the current Paizo Pathfinder flavor for continuity. It's so important if they're trying to develop social systems in the game such as buildings, politics, taxes (and death!). That said given it's high fantasy the idea of "Planes of Existence" I have a peccadillo for this being more expressed! :)
On Wildstar the things that struck me which led to having no interest at all and possibly little insight to share, hence:-
As for PFO's current MVP core game loop. Not played but I think territory control and farming resources and mobs in your bit of territory and preventing others raiding it, well jealously guarding our land seems very appealing and farming those mobs and nodes ensuring their harvest is collected for the group and not into the hands of those other gangs of players. That sounds motivating given that context to it.
I guess there will be players who like fighting mobs, again I'm not much of a fan of fighting AI PvE mobs so maybe can't share many insights here either. Cracking other players skulls and taking their harvest though...
Tbh most people stay clear of alpha for a good reason. Last game I tested burnt me out in no time and the "will to log in" deserted me for either a long time or permanently tbh, hence I'm not in PFO Alpha. Also getting my computer sorted (graphics card, RAM and Win7 OS and borrowing a decent screen and throwing away the bad screen I got off ebay).
@Thod: It's a very, very useful thread. Some summary and consolidation of "How To Improve Your" Network Connectivity (and buy a good graphics card!) posted as per GW's Custom Operations function will be very useful as you point out.
I was going to say I have one of those 20m cables for direct connection. Saves a lot of wifi fiddling. Also defragmentation and getting the computer to run efficiently is good practice in anycase. The specific software again as another option for them that want it, it provides a range of different options from simple to complex from quick and free to longer and cost etc.
I notice a lot has been discussed about tricks ISPs may or may not use, and methods that may or may not work to get around such tricks, but I also notice that the original question has been ignored, evaded and deflected.
Well from our resident cowled and cloaked shadow, that's aligned! ;)
I've provided some input on what an END-USER can do their end.
I've deliberately avoided any suggestion of inference what Goblinworks have to do SERVER-SIDE as that is beyond my understanding. I don't know much at all about Netcode. But what Ryan says about increase in data (more players in density) leading to increase in packet data loss rates rising (??) sounds plausible to my amateur ears as a major explanation and rising above a threshold you get kicked?
Minor explanations probably are the Client/User-side stuff to speed up the connection... probably helps somewhat and for other internet usage anyway so of use even if it is minor contribution. :)
Just to chip in. Developing a particular brand of RP coined "PAR" after Ryan's additions to the subject or related to the subject which ever is more applicable:-
RP = Role-Playing
PAR = Playing A Role
Of course our activities will be scheduled only during the phases of the Full Moon, so the overhead on this choice of gameplay will be minimal conflict with the character's normal duties.
It's turning out to be a complex project but very rewarding. Got 1/4 done and working on the other 3/4 atm then need to exchange this "vision" into a "blueprint" with the other members before discussing further with the wider PFO Community.
Hrn, here's some guidelines I was looking into in case of issues:-
1. Restart your router!
2. Check if your ISP is throttling your BB
Use measurementlab.net . If throttling then maybe complain to EE's customer service department (who will get complaints daily). Keep records of your communication with your ISP. If you do dump them then look for a new provider who uses Local-Loop Unbundling (LLU).
3. Switch to a faster DNS Server
There's "DNS Benchmark" "DNS Jumper" tools grc.com/dns/benchmark.htm to use for this exercise if desired.
4. Wi-Fi problems would involve further solutions (Channel, new firmware for your router, repeater and positioning of router), but the above are worth looking into if you have a direct connection to your computer. And check none others are using your wifi channel.
After that I guess you're at the mercy of your ISP.
A quick google for general solutions:-
Maybe there is something helpful here. It's just a bit of research I did for my own uses in the event.
Thod there should be various tech boffins in the forums who can advise?
That said, I've looked into this and when I get time will try to post/posit some resources for use on such issues. It's a very energetic w/e so forgive me if I fail in advance to get back today and I'm not a tech expert either so these are just pointers/resources you may already have covered/know of.
I was sold on the idea of PFO in part what I wanted in mmorpg "more freedom" from myself and in part from what Ryan demonstrated in design and again in engagement with interested people.
I was sold on the idea of EE despite limitations in part due to lack of alternatives and again because there's a chance a good quality community will harbour in EE, which adds a lot of value imo.
I did not realize Ryan had such a history in games previously but certainly did recognise the design idea was really great even if the implementation challenges still remained "staggering"!!!
Veeeery interesting interview (good interviewer and interviewee: It takes 2 two Tango as the saying goes).
What stood out for me the most was the way Ryan mentioned how unpredictable confluences were often important in how things shaped up.
Good question on "was it Pathfinder or was it an MMO?"
Maybe it's redundant if as per Ryan mentioning, at these various stages it provides "opportunity for conflict". Also combines with the idea of licensing the online aspect and the financial choices behind that.