Auxmaulous's page

I would love to see the subterranean bases/ruins of some of Fallen Empires of the surface world. Being big on PH gaming (Gamma/Darwins world), it would be fun to detail some of the more intact ruins (vaults) which were part of the larger infrastructure of a long gone surface world empire. Maybe they are inhabited by their degenerate descendants or some of the horrible powers which brought them low in the first place.

Also some rules on making the drow a little tougher somehow. The 3.5 versions are pretty weak. I created a short term armor & weapon ability enhancements so I can give low to mid level drow +2 to +5 weapons and armor...stuff which crumbles after not being exposed to the power of their underworld cities after x amount of days (or if exposed to real daylight). Recaptures the old feel/terror of the dark elves. Something to make them feel a little more different than just evil elves.
Again, I am trying to recapture the feel (and player reaction) of modules D1-3 in 3.5.

All the Harryhausen movies got me to love monsters, esp the skeletons in the Argonauts/7th Voyage of Sinbad. Those movies piqued my intest in all things fantasy/Sci-fi and monster related. Later on seeing boxes of lead minis with Minotaurs or Skeletons depicted on them, and that was it. From then on Gygax, Grenadier and TSR had me hooked.

The original War of the Worlds (1953 George Pal version), The Road Warrior (Gamma World FTW!) and "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly". The original Halloween was big for me also.

When the final hardcopy is released will it be as a 400+ page book or split into a PHB and DMG?

My opinion would be for two books. Two smaller books would be easier for players and dungeon masters to look up what they want faster and more efficiently. Plus the DM's material wouldn't be staring at the gamers when they looked something up.

Just my opinion. Maybe this doesn't matter to most.

I agree with you 100%. I thing most of the SRD should be recopied/printed with all the pathfinder changes.

There is too much assumption that a new player will have all the out of print 3.5 core books or even know about downloading the 3.5 SRD. I say reprint as much as possible w/changes and additional material. Would make it feel more like "whole" game an also limit the need to have access to older books. I have everything from OD&D through 3.5 so it isn't an issue to me, but just starting to covert my group over yesterday was a bit of a mess, too much material thrown together which would be better served with added detail in separate books.

Also the extra 60 page DL spell supplement could then be added to the PFRPG players handbook.

IMO of course

Auxmalous and Aaron Whitley: My posting activities on another board having NOTHING to do with my posting here. This is yet ANOTHER example of the bullsh*t that goes on with these forums. Apparently, it's okay to disregard my points because I make not-nice posts on another forum. That is a patently retarded ad failinum argument, and the fact that you think that it is acceptable makes me sad for the human race.

I was bringing context and history to what you have as an agenda. I was there for most of your anti-4e posts on the "other" forum; you wanted to change the game to vision of what you thought it should be (and 5e). You are doing the same with PFRPG. The point that you have stated repeatedly in other places that you never really played 3.5 is also an important fact. PFRPG is not going to be an entirely new game, deal with it. I would love if it were to go back to more of a 1st/2nd ed feel but that isn't going to happen, it doesn't give me liscense to s!%@ on other posters or whine about the rules changes the devs are TESTING out with the Beta.

Auxmalous (again): Yes, the abilities are more powerful. Do you know why? Because casters still dominate the game. What part of this do you not understand? There's no way to bring casters down to an acceptable power level without re-writing the entire spell system. We can nerf spells all we want, but that's not going to change the fact that wizards can fly and fighters can't. Wizards get to do cool things like teleport and give people miss chances. Fighters get to take shots to the head.

Casters do NOT dominate the game, spells are the factors, spell casting classes without the spells are garbage. So the issue is how do you fix the game so some spells do not function in an overpowered or overshadowing capacity. This can be fixed in more ways than giving fighters ownzorz !!!!!1!!1 l33t abilities.

One example: change the way concentration/disruption on spells work...like fly, or summoning, etc and you have nerfed, gimped and brought back down to earth all your errant PvP concerns. Part of the problem isn't the power levels of the spells but more their "fire and forget" aspect of their use. You don't need to give 5th level fighters DR which would make them immune to daggers and short swords. A DM with half a functional brain can do this, it's not too hard to implement set of game rules. Change the way spells work and that applies to every splat which meets up with PFRPG, they meet the game and the mechanics PFRPG not the other way around.

The power scaling of the characters is a never ending game, if you are using all the other spats and some idiotic spells as a measure of how much fighers need to be powered up than maybe we would all be better off switching to 4e, because once you are done giving the fighter all those powers he will be pretty unrecognizable from anything which existed from 1st to 3.5 ed.

As far as the OP and his points I would say that they are all over powered. I don't want PFRPG to be an ever scaling powergrab for all the core classes; fix some mistakes and issues - In the case of 3.5 I would say most of them are the way spells work, and add in some options and features to advance the game.
P_R is a 4e hater from the wotc boards who has admitted that he doesn't really like 3.5 (or that he even plays) and wants a totally different game. I don't have a problem with what he wants, just more with the fact that he thinks that he is going to get it by leaning on PFRPG devs in an aggresive fashion.

The PF devs are doing the right thing, keep the game 3.5 compatable, scale the core classes to match the Prc standard, and fix and modify some spells and abilities. They do not need to create a radically different or up-powered game (DR 5 at level 5 is beyond sane gaming), just fix and evolve what already exists.
If people -including the OP, don't like the changes or don't think that they are radical enough then they may need to start considering another game as a possible hobby outlet. PFRP will stay 3.5 compatable and that is a good thing, if you don't agree then PFRPG may just not be for you.

That being said I would like to see more "optional" rules towards 3.5 be presented that would deal with both higher powered styles of gaming and grittier low powered styles of gaming (my pref), something that would integrate with 3.5/PFRPG and work as variants of the existing 3.5 game mechanics. Down the line of course and not in the core PFRPG. I don't think that PFRPG changes D&D so much that it becomes as uncrecognizable as 4th.

And to those defending the ops post and his style of posting, try taking a look at what he originally posted at the Gamers-/4chan/-Den. You may not be so quick to come to his defense after reading some of the garbage posted over there.

It's like some cute waitress just came up and said, 'Hey there! Want some cheesecake?' and then sat down in my lap and started slapping me in the face while I was eating it. Okay. I like the friendly hottie. I like the cheesecake. I like the lap-sitting. But the face-slapping is turning me off to the whole experience.

That is the best, I will write it into an Inn encounter for next weeks game!

Vic Wertz wrote:

Mike McArtor wrote:

*squee*

I wouldn't think Chelaxians "squee."

Well maybe not in public, or in front of the minions . . . but when no one's looking?

Maybe right after a Cheliaxian noble uses a trapdoor in the throne room to drop some Andoran rebels into the infernal breeding pits below the castle, (Aka "Club Malbolge")...I think I can see a "squee" going on, maybe even a few giddy giggles.

I agree with Auxmaulous -- it depends on the druid. A druid could be anything from a wild hermit who despises civilization to an urban gardener who thinks that civilization and nature can co-exist in balance with each other.

I actually had some of those thoughts in mind. I think both Dragon and wotc has some urban druid/ranger type write ups.

Also in some smaller frontier villages and towns the Druid may play as an important role as the local priest of even witch/hedge wizard. In FR, in particular with Dalelands, I can see a druid even living in or right by a small town and providing services to the community much like a cleric would, esp. if the people venerate gods of agriculture, wilderness, hunting etc. A very pre-christian european role.

I am of the school of thought which thinks that paladins can infiltrate thieves/assasin guilds (with the help of some good rogues) and I think good druids are an asset to civilization, not a liability. It can be tough to DM, but I don't think players should be punished or hindered for picking certain classes or alignments. Just find a creative workaround.

My take

I would say that it really depends on the individual druid, and the views of the order he belongs to. In many cases he would feel uncomfortable even hanging out in a crowded town..he may go for some info and provisions and then end up hanging out on the outskirts of town till the rest of the PC are ready to pick him up.

And then again he may be 100% comfortable with the trappings of civilization...his belief is in the strength of nature and doing what townsfolk do while in town may serve a greater end in protecting the thing he is all about. In other words an emissary of the woods/nature and he would not act like an ass while he is in town, just focused on his priorities.

Of course if the town/inn/community is doing harm to the environment (more than they should for their size), the druid in question might take a very hostile approach to the community, more rp complications.

I would say that rangers, druids and barbarians would probably not want to hang around in mid to large sized towns too long and would probably feel like they are out of their element for most of their stay (at least while the barbarian is sober).

I don't think that a Druid objecting to staying in an Inn is grounds for punishment...if the group is on a mission and going to the inn is part of the deal then he should also go to the inn, at least to communicate with NPCs, he doesn't have to sleep there.

and who knows, maybe while he is camping on the outskirts of town he may even see something relevant to the adventure.

The pitfalls of symbolism I suppose. It's all been done before.

It's a great, thoughtful post, but I don't think Paizo is in dangerous waters. If it took this long for someone to point out the similarity (in a community that has more than a few history buffs), then we're probably safe.

However, your comparisons have sparked my imagination. The Chelaxian tableau has come alive. Thanks!

....

Now where's the dang Taldor T-shirt? I do hope it comes with an ascot.

I don't think Paizo is going to have crowds of people protesting outside their office any time soon also, to the best of my knowledge it has never been a "direct" banner supporting any kind of atrocity or regime. Panzers had the wolfhook painted on some them (depending on the Div), the modern satanic movement just took the symbolism from the Nazis.

It is powerful though...if the minds at Paizo wanted to create an totalitarian evil empire that will put most other rl or fantasy ones to shame then they have done a hell (heh) of a job with Cheliax.

Now bring on the heroes!

Fascinating post, Auxmaulos. What does NS mean?

NS = National Socialist, more or less generic for post WWII racial or separatist movements.

I'm not try to raise non-issues to issue status, just bringing it up as an FYI. The shirt logo doesn't look like an exact replica of their flag as depicted in the books, but looks more like the Odin/Celtic cross which has been co-opted and now associated with WP and NS groups. The actual hooks on the shirt are different than the book logos which are in fact Wolfhooks - by coincidence if not by design.

Not really big deal, more of an FYI concerning the subject.

Auxmaulous wrote:

There could be a problem with this.

Explain.

A few days ago I was going to post a thread entitled "What does Cheliax, The Church of Satan and the 2nd SS Panzer Division - "Das Reich" all have in common?"

Of course with all the Beta excitement and work I forgot.

Not a major issue per say, but looking at the symbol as it appeared in the Gazetteer as the Cheliax flag, and later on the cover of the Last Baron Module, the symbol is a Wolfsangel, or Wolfshook - a Germanic rune that has been associated with WWII national socialism movements and popular in the post-war NS scene, also used by the Church of Satan and various white power groups. The symbol as it appears on the shirt a little less so, but it does looking incredibly like a NS/Nazi symbol.

I think that is why I found the symbol so powerful and appropriate for the Cheliax Empire, it is the Germanic runic base for the swastika (in addition to the Black Sun).

I can't say that I am an authority on history or runic traditions, but being a skinhead for 19 (of my 37) years has put me in some bizarre circles. I have seen this symbol before (be it on tats, shirts or album covers).

The Cheliax flag is probably the closest thing you could get for a Nazi type banner (the color scheme, inverted swords, wolfshook) for a quasi-medieval game. It is the perfect symbol for the combination of fascism and devil worship.
Now that, is hardcore.

For the record I am not offended personally; it is a symbol for a fantasy game and I bring it up as more of a point of concern for Paizo getting some idiots worked up about their products.

Edit to add: when I say "skin" I mean and Oi/Punk skin, not a goose stepping stormtrooper. I don't go out beating up people of other ethnicities or do anything of that moronic nature. WP skins are actually a minority in the skin counter culture, most people don't know that.

There could be a problem with this.

That does sound like crap.

Getting back on topic:
UK1 Beyond the Crystal Cave. I wouldn't say it was the worst module, but at the time and in my state of mind it was a big letdown. Being 13 and spending my hard earned cash on the slaver series and Ghost Tower of Inverness and being happy with most of the 1st ed AD&D published mods UK1 was very much a wtf kind of experience..with no monsters, and no real encounters. A Harlequin romance novel premise in the heyday of hack and slash. Maybe brave for it's time, but damn...what a letdown.

kessukoofah wrote:

out of curiousity, what about the modules in books and magazines written by DMs?

What i mean is that i think a DM should write his own modules by himself. That's part of the job.

As a DM i wouldn't dare running a game for my players from a magazine or a book.
And as a player i am not interested by a DM who can't write his own adventures.

A DM should write their own adventures, but sometimes things like jobs, relationships, life, etc do get in the way. Generally I don't run pre-made modules, I did when I was a teenager (some 20 years ago) but most mods would require tremendous work for me to use these days that it usually isn't worth - maybe as a idea seed or loose framework but thats about it.

I also think that reading and running some of the classics helped me in creating a mood and style which both my players and I currently enjoy. I would have to say that modules can also work as a nice tool (bait) to get someone who normally wouldn't DM a game to get behind the screen as a one off ref.

KnightErrantJR wrote:

Hm . . . that covers most of the 80s end of series ret con, I think . . .

Well, there is that 70's one of that cool motorcycle guy on waterskis and something about a shark .....

4e jumped the shark, 4e FR is just the same show continuing on after Richie left.

Three goddess descend upon the PCs, and demand they judge which of the deities is most beautiful.

Ouch! Why don't you just have the male PC guess the age of goddesses while you are at it?

I can see this one being expanded into a full blown adventure. Three goddesses come down, the PC don't exacly know who their are (they could be variant avatars of three major different goddesses). One could be of beauty and dispair, the other could be of torment/pain and the last could be of house and home. You can't really tell by talking to them - you have 24 hours to figure it out - and make the correct praise of beauty.

Or you're dead...

I want to build a zoo, 4E Realms style: A Topical Aside

Wow, that is pretty depressing.

But at least they got their money.

Every NPC the PC kill off is seen as ghostly images by the PCs. At first out of the corner of their eyes, then more pronounced, maybe due to a curse - but they can't go on after death.

PC are off to kill bad guy (caster of some sort) and are prepping to leave town the next day on their quest but when they wake up in the morning and the Inn, the town and countryside are empty and everything is overgrown.

Auxmaulous wrote:

I'm going to drop it..not going to cede the point, just drop it. Out of respect for Paizo and also not wanting this to turn into the C&C boards at wotc.

I will respectfully take this as an admission that you are wrong, and sing a merry little song about it as I type.

Anonymity is the best disguise though. Keep going.

I'm going to drop it..not going to cede the point, just drop it. Out of respect for Paizo and also not wanting this to turn into the C&C boards at wotc.

Auxmaulous wrote:

Actually on this board..aren't you the troll? Paizo isn't supporting 4e at this time, so what the hell are you guys doing here besides crapping up the threads?

I dunno. Seeing as how I've been a regular poster here for nearly three years now, am a subscriber to all of Paizo's products (including those that other posters are not even aware of, such as Bella Sara), and have a large number of friends on these boards, I sorta thought I fit right in.

Don't be bitter just because you're wrong. Just be a man and admit to it.

I am glad you have alot of good friends on an internet board, that tells me tons about you. Good for you.

But I'm not wrong. Again...insults aside (I know it's hard for you), unless I have proof I will assume that it is a jab at paizo. Just like Grog-Nard is a jab at old school players who don't like 4e.

Or are you going to blindly defend that also?

Actually on this board..aren't you the troll? Paizo isn't supporting 4e at this time, so what the hell are you guys doing here besides crapping up the threads?

Which really aren't facts at all.

<contemplates that>

Hmmmm.....you're funny. I like you.

Wow, the 4venger MO on a paizo board.

4e PHB Paragon ability "wrong step" = Fact
Pathfinder as flagship product annouced last year before mags expire = fact
Paizo not onboard with 4e sometime before it heads off to the printer =fact
Some 4tard on the intarweb telling me that "wrong step" was included in 4e during the playtest = unproven fact.

And that stands no matter how many 4tards/4e xmen want to dogpile on the issue.

Again as I said earlier I will chalk it up to a coincidence if I am given proof that the ability existed early on in the playtest. Otherwise please,....

well you know the rest.

Auxmaulous wrote:

Thats the point though..it didn't have to come to the announcement of PFRPG, just the fact that Paizo was not going to be on board with wotc...hence the "wrong step".

Hence, the ouija board. If you're going to make predictions about future unknown events, there's no greater tool.

Like I said, provide the proof. You can't or you won't so I will go with the facts I have.

Paizo 3e announcement = March 18, 2008

4e off to printer announcement = March 19, 2008

I'd like to think that they decided to change the name of one of the prestige classes and powers, got it approved by all the editors, got together with the graphic designers, and changed the necessary pdf pages in a 200+ page document, all in less than 24 hours so that they could have a rather minor and silly jab at a company half of them used to work at.

Yeah, it's possible. Hey, there's Elvis, gotta go.

Thats the point though..it didn't have to come to the announcement of PFRPG, just the fact that Paizo was not going to be on board with wotc...hence the "wrong step".

Auxmaulous wrote:

You can try to support facts with proof vs your word..which is worthless.

Again, no proof=stfu

Not sure why the burden of proof is on me, particularly when you're the one making the false assertion. And, as I've already pointed out, there are NDAs limiting the ability of anyone to offer proof. If you knew anything about the 4e playtests, you would know that.

Maybe Vic Wertz will show up to say the same thing and you can tell him to STFU too. He loves that sorta thing.

Yeah and someone in playtest told him the same thing. I am not doubting the existence of the Pathfinder paragon path....I am doubting the "wrong step" ability. Unless I can see the doc for myself I am going to assume it is a jab at PFRPG.

I'll keep the "stfu" for the idiots that deserve it, I don't think paizo staff qualify...now you on the other hand...

Auxmaulous wrote:

4venger much? Like I said..no proof, kindly stfu unless you can produce.

Not so much. Just trying to keep the facts straight. It's fun, you should try it some time.

You can try to support facts with proof vs your word..which is worthless.

Again, no proof=stfu

Auxmaulous wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

Okay, let's make a timeline:

3. WotC releases playtest copies of 4e which include the Pathfinder prestige class and the wrong-step ability.

So, you're argument is that WotC made a jab about Pathfinder before they even knew it would be a non-4e product? What if Pathfinder had gone 4e? Would the joke have even made any sense?

I must have missed the memo on this one. Unless you have proof or a dated pdf I would say that you are blowing smoke.

AFAIK "wrong step" was not released in any form before PF announced it was not going 4e. If you have proof I will cede the point, otherwise take the sh(r)ill over to gleemax.

Neh. You're wrong. I know it. Playtesters know it. Whether or not you admit it is irrelevant.

4venger much? Like I said..no proof, kindly stfu unless you can produce.

Okay, let's make a timeline:

3. WotC releases playtest copies of 4e which include the Pathfinder prestige class and the wrong-step ability.

So, you're argument is that WotC made a jab about Pathfinder before they even knew it would be a non-4e product? What if Pathfinder had gone 4e? Would the joke have even made any sense?

I must have missed the memo on this one. Unless you have proof or a dated pdf I would say that you are blowing smoke.

AFAIK "wrong step" was not released in any form before PF announced it was not going 4e. If you have proof I will cede the point, otherwise take the sh(r)ill over to gleemax.

As much as Wes loves demon lords... I love them more! And to get Ubbo-Sathla and Abhoth out of the way... those were actually created by Clark Ashton Smith, i believe, not Lovecraft, and as a result they aren't necessarily in the public domain like Lovecraft's stuff (since Clark Ashton lived a lot longer than Lovecraft...)

Yeah, they are both CAS - probably were a big influence on the creation of Jubilex.

Auxmaulous wrote:

Pathfinder has already incorporated some HPL stuff, why not have them do a few write ups on some HPL deities which are similar if not better than the D&D standards (I will miss Demogorgon though).

Something like that might be in the cards for the far future, but really, it's been done. While we don't want to add anything unique to Earth to Golarion (like Cthulhu himself kind of is), we have less of a problem adding references to more pervasive powers (like Azathoth). Leng, for example, exists somewhere out on the planes, and Earth probably spins somewhere out there on the Material Planes, but there's no reason something that lives on Earth would make it to Golarion.

At the end of the day, though, be it Lovecraft's Elder Gods or Demogorgon, they've been done. If you want to add Yog-Sothoth to your game there's plenty of resources for that. If you want to add Demogorgon to your game, there's tons on him too (James could probably recommend a few particularly insightful works). But these guys come with decades of baggage. Sure, we could legally throw Orcus into Golarion, but why? To tie him to years of Greyhawk, Planescape, even FR lore? Meh, not that interested. We're not trying to be disrespectful--lord knows love for D&D's demons runs strong in this house--but we'd rather do our own thing under our own power, or cherry pick some of our favorites and write them the stories they deserve. And it turns out, some folks around here have some real chops when it comes to detailing beings of unredeemable evil.

What I was trying to say is this - it would have been nice to port over some of the legacy which has been D&D since in my opinion this is where the legacy will confine. I wish you guys officially owned Demorgorgon as he stands (well after the Savage Tide...you guys do) but you don't.

Actually I am 100% pleased with the direction and attitude you guys have taken with the whole fiendish/demon/devil issue. In many respects I do see a continuation in what would be considered the spirit of the "Lovecraft circle" with alot of the new work you guys have done with your creatures and Gods if PF. "Lovecraft circle" going back to HPL, CAS, Robert E Howard, et al.
That doesn't mean everything you guys touch turn into a slobbering mass of tentacles or is a knock off of HPL's work... it is more along the lines of the passion and love those guys put into their creations. The creative work put into PF (Gods and monsters) stands on it's own but I also see it as a continuation of a genre laid out a long time ago.

All that being said I have no doubts that if new infernal iconics are ever going to show up in D&D, that they are going to show up here - under this roof.

You mean the Pathfinder class and ability which existed prior to Paizo's announcement that they were not going to convert to 4e? Then again, WotC did buy that time machine from TSR. They probably looked into the future, saw that Paizo was not going to make Pathfinder a 4e product, and slipped in that joke before anyone knew what Paizo was planning (even the staff of Paizo!).

Damn sneaky bastards.

No, it was based off the Pathfinder adventure series which was announced prior to the end run of the Dungeon and Dragon magazines which was way before the announcement of 4e.

Thus they had plenty of time to create their "Pathfinder - wrong step" ability after Paizo decided to not go the route of "Dumb & Dumber" aka "D&D 4e" but before 4e was actually released in print.

So yeah, no time machine needed... but gg though, wotc needs all the support they can get.

And there you go. Hard to copyright stuff that's been around longer then copyright laws, as is the case with so many RPG deities. The strength of this is that these names, by virtue of their age and connotations, are surrounded by mysticism and mystery. Kind of exactly what you want to draw upon when you're describing fictional deities--benevolent and demonic alike.

I wish Clark had put Demorgorgon in the ToH, as it stands the name is derived from a Greek term, but it would be a stretch to use that name and come up with that Gary/TSR envisioned for the Prince of Demons. So he becomes off limits, even with a historical/lore precedent tied to "Demogorgon".

At least you guys gave him a good send off.

And I am curious...are they WotC property ? Or, in case of public domain names (drawn from mythology), will they be akin to their image so far portrayed in D&D ? And the other names, where do they come from ? And will Jubilex, my fave demon lord, still be a slimy piece of goo ? :)

Just call him Abhoth (the source of Uncleaness) or Ubbo-Sathla and give him similar stats (from a multitude of 3.0/3.5 sourcebooks). As it stands right now I use a variety of Cthuloid deities in my FR campaign - the serve as alternate versions of demon lords, or as avatars of various gods.

Pathfinder has already incorporated some HPL stuff, why not have them do a few write ups on some HPL deities which are similar if not better than the D&D standards (I will miss Demogorgon though).

It is unfortunate that by merely owning the license that they get all the cool stuff historically associated with D&D, only to just **** on it and resent it like hell. Would be nice if Mind Flayers and Beholders were public domain - wotc had the cash to buy the branding which they 100% were incapable of creating on their own. I'm still trying to think of something they created in the last eight years which will have the same sustain and name recognition as a Demogorgon or Orcus, or even an Owlbear.

I'm sure they will relaunch it after the coming winter, maybe get a spring offensive going?

lol, or maybe not.

Auxmaulous wrote:

...

As far as the PSH Purist are concerned you could always have as sinister PSH geneticist who is trying to improve upon the GST change which made humans as tough as they are. He could be trying to convert mutants into humans by stripping out their mutations via surgery or drugs producing horrific monsters, or also the same scientist working for the Purist could also be modifying humans and thus turning them into super human/mutants or the rejects could be abominations (think Hills have eyes/Texas chainsaw massacre). The cast off failures could be kept interred or used as weapons guardians for their base. Or they could escape and be hiding in the mountains - maybe even the Purist don't know everything this nut case is creating right under their noses and would kill him if they found out.

just a few ideas...been running GW since 1980

Excellent Ideas! I like the whole mad scientist under the radar of the powers that be angle. The Wreckers (the PSH culture) do have 'camps' for mutants, and an enterprising maniac could get away with a lot. He'd have to watch out for the rest of his culture though, for although they are mean racist thugs, but they also have a horror of 'abomination science'. Something like modification of sentients would probably drive them into a frenzy. Thanks Auxmaulous!

No problem, I love talking about GW or helping anyone else who plays.

One more hook to help out your Wreckers...while they could be very anti-tech (limited to WWII), why not have them either modify existing TIII groundcars (more or less hybrid/turbine cars) or make their own type of armored cars- in the likeness of Panzers, Armored sd.Kfz.222's etc. I love lower tech badguys, but they always need a hook....a group of bad guys who excel at making armor (even it is nothing compared to a real pre-fall tank) would be a major threat to all outlying communities.

Hell if I was an elder from a threatened community I would send in anyone I could find (mercenaries, youngsters up for their first rite of passage) to sneak in and "blow up" their yard so to speak.

Actually the Big Bad Menace is a mildly-technophobic culture of Pure Strain humans determined to genocide their way back to the way things were. They abhorr all computers, and maintain a WW II -era tech level. Perhaps some sort of bizarro steam-engine death machine/tank/mech would work in this scenario. Thanks for the good idea DigitalElf!

A good place to look for more creatures would be the Darwin's World D20 rpg, very heavily influenced by GW. Plenty of horrific PA monsters that can be ported over to D&D or GWd20.

As far as the PSH Purist are concerned you could always have as sinister PSH geneticist who is trying to improve upon the GST change which made humans as tough as they are. He could be trying to convert mutants into humans by stripping out their mutations via surgery or drugs producing horrific monsters, or also the same scientist working for the Purist could also be modifying humans and thus turning them into super human/mutants or the rejects could be abominations (think Hills have eyes/Texas chainsaw massacre). The cast off failures could be kept interred or used as weapons guardians for their base. Or they could escape and be hiding in the mountains - maybe even the Purist don't know everything this nut case is creating right under their noses and would kill him if they found out.

just a few ideas...been running GW since 1980

Rises from deep R'lyeh

I've been tricked!

At least it wasn't a rickroll link..........

So....it is midweek......give up the goods.

The Snitch himself is kept in a tiefling bar and I was trying to figure out how to lead the PCs to the Snitch and what the raid on the bar would go like. My original thought was to have the place be hostile from the word go, but the other chatters pointed out that it would be much more interesting if there were innocent bystanders around.

That's the short of it. We talked back and forth for a while about the plot and bounced various ideas around. I don't think I rejected anything because of the way 4e works.

If the PC never met the stoolie from the snitch how could they tell either apart? You could always do something to where the stoolie trys to trick the PC into thinking he's the snitch...of course the stoolie may not be whoally prepared for the encounter and may try to play it off and he may think that the party knows where the treasure is stashed and then can have some fun verbal exchanges and the party can get the hints

a) about the treasure,
b) the stoolie is not the snitch, the party can beat or trick the info out of the stoolie
c) heads up on the roaches base...a well placed lie to throw the party off would be fun i.e. give them wrong info about a trap or creature guardian, etc

WTF? So now, because I play a game you don't like, you won't even help me as a person? What the hell is that about?
I have always figured at the end of the day, we were gamers, and whether we play 3e, Pathfinder, 4e, Vampire, Twerps, Hero, or whatever, we could still discuss games in general, and in particular, story elements that are totally unrelated to the underlying mechanics. Is helping me improve my game really supporting 4e?
Am I wrong? Was this chatter just one isolated douchebag?

I don't support 4e, so I won't help anyone with anything involving 4e.

J/k, plot is plot.
Some game mechanics may affect how things work out (spells, abilities) but conflicts, protagonists/antagonist are age old concepts in storytelling which should transcend gaming systems. The person in question was proably just bitter...many of us still are over 4e, but I think that time is passing. PFRPG helps to ease the pain.

I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I think we should have two forums - one for the "goodbye pathfinder" and one for the fake "goodbye pathfinder" posts.

When I saw that PF was staying with 3.X rules I couldn't be happier. When I started seeing the changes in the alpha version I was as exited as when I first read through D&D 3rd Ed. And no matter the way the final PFRPG end up I'll be sticking to it. I'll take what I like, and change to my own way the rules I don't like. As simple as that.

That pretty much sums it up. Bottom line, even with some major class changes PFRPG will still at it's core be 3.5 and use the same system. Most of the monsters are probably not going to change so much so really it comes down to what you want to end up using for the PC classes and how PFRPG makes changes that actually fix some of the issues with 3.5. If they (Paizo) offer up a few alternatives-which btw they have in many sections of the alpha release - then you may find more than one workaround to fix what ails 3.5 without having to use all the PFRPG material.

Paizo is on the right track with this and even if they do end up deviating they are of the right mind (which is more important).

I love the alternate/reasoning sections they have presented so far with the new material. Just the xp chart alone made me think of how I could use it to make my game more like 2nd ed (if you think rogues are the weakest class - have them use a fast progression chart, and if wizards are too powerful have them use the slow progression chart) the thing is that they know. They have the right heart in this.....

And Hugo I agree with the rest of your post 100%. One other thing that is sadly missing now with the death of Dungeon and Dragon mags is the lack of information with regard to new gaming products, I know alot of people hated the advertisements but I wasn't offended by them, I liked the non wotc previews, the list of gaming items, shirts, junk, whatever. The loss of the mags must have really hurt the niche gaming companies (Dwarven Forge, etc).

James Jacobs wrote:

Although the Pathfinder paragon path does, to me at least, feel like a somewhat childish and snarky move by WotC to sneak an in-joke into their core rules...

Yeah, it should have been an Epic Destiny.

Well they got one thing right in the description of The Pathfinder

"I can find us a path through that maze of horror, and I can safely lead us to the other end"