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Wax Golem

Aubrey the Malformed's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 7,915 posts (21,393 including aliases). 2 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 13 aliases.


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Hmmm, we're lucky that James pretty much goes to bed at 7.30. Is she at nursery yet?

Anyway, this week has been a bit spotty for me too. Work to complete by year end and struggling with the mother of all colds (I had a flu jab - what for?). However, it should be done by today.

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@Vatters and Ithers.

Guys, you are clearly struggling to post, in this game and in the other two with me as well. Are things OK?

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Jareen quickly recognises this place for what it is - a vile sink of humanity where the feckless either get pressed into slavery or are doing the pressing. The "village" is basically a couple of barrack blocks and some inns that double as brothels for both the indigenous security and visiting caravaneers. Vice and skulduggery are the main currency here. Jareen just about manages to keep from insulting anyone who looks like they might offer violence in return, but it is quite obvious that no self-respecting druid would be living in this cesspit of iniquity.

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Yes, I was going to ask someone to do that.

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Ok, thanks for letting us know.

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Well, if there is no participation, then you need new players. In the end, the DM has to be ruthless and kick players who will not post.

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I'm assuming you are a player, not the DM. The pace is partly down to the DM, as he should be getting the players to interact more and post. I'd PM the DM to find out what he wants. But if no one else wants to take on the leadership role, then there's no real reason why you shouldn't take it on.

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If the scale was handed to Hannik's eidolon it would apply, but I don't think it would apply to them both.

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Thanks, tracking this stuff in one place will be really helpful, for me as well as you. One the xp and treasure front, just a reminder that we are on the medium xp track. Normally I run on the fast but for this one the xp is handed quite generously anyway so I decided not to change it.

On a related note, don't forget to distribute Terendelev's Scales - it's not often four artefacts are just handed out at the beginning of an AP.

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Might be a bit slow with the map - had a busy evening last night and having a busy evening tonight.

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bugleyman wrote:
I would argue that that analysis misses that you are inevitably releasing your new game into a post-OGL world. Whether or not the OGL was ultimately a win for them in 3E doesn't alter the fact that they now have to compete with a host of OGL games.

True, but that wasn't necessarily obvious at the time. After all, the 3PP that actually ate their lunch wasn't an OGL publisher but a licencee.

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bugleyman wrote:
Brian E. Harris wrote:
Or develop a licensing system so that site and others can exist, and such licensing creates a revenue stream...
And/or that. :)

It's always been a bit weird they have never pursued that much, with a few notable exceptions over the decades.

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Brian E. Harris wrote:

How smart was it to terminate anyone and everyone involved with the project, and then, by and large, ignore it?

People always seem to forget that the whole OGL deal is a two-way street, and WotC basically squinched their eyes, stuck their fingers in their ears and screamed "NA NA NA NA NA" when it came to their ability to use open content to their own benefit.

The OGL was certainly a master stroke. Their inability or unwillingness to embrace that which they created was the problem, not the thing they created itself.

We've all heard about the whole "D20 Glut" and all of the oh-so-horrible stuff there. WotC, as the gatekeepers to the game, were in the perfect position to seperate all of the diamonds from the rough and polish them up, incorporating that into the system, enhancing and expanding it.

Their keenness to abandon it simply underscores that those that made that decision just flat didn't understand it, and refused to try to do so.

See, I don't really see that. I think you aren't really getting what would be the only motivation for WotC - namely, the bottom line. The OGL was good for RPGs in general and d20 specifically but whether WotC genuinely got much benefit is doubtful - it didn't share the profits of those using the system, it just gave the IP away for free, so there was no immediate benefit to them.

In theory they could have benefitted if the sales of 3PP material led lots of people to rush and buy the WotC rules as the engine, but I'm not sure that would have happened. I would imagine you would buy the rules and then explore 3PP stuff, rather than buy a 3PP product and say, "Hey, I really need to check out those D&D rules!" So I can't really see it driving sales in that way.

And as I said above, the big mistake that WotC made was to not provide their own product for their engine because they didn't make adventures except once in a blue moon - otherwise, they relied on Paizo in the magazines era one a semi-detached basis. Paizo benefitted from all the people who were playing 3e and didn't want to stop when 4e came out, so I'm not sure WotC's experience would be the same. And Paizo's strongest suit is adventure design, so a free engine isn't really such a big sacrifice for them.

No one outside Hasbro has seen the figures as WotC is only a part of a much larger company, but I would be surprised that the OGL really drove much business for them. That was partly their own fault but even with the best will in the world, their approach to driving profits, and their business model, was very different to Paizo. On that basis, ending their involvement with the OGL would be perfectly rational.

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IANAL - I Am Not A Lawyer? It's a sad development when that becomes an internet acronym. ;-P

Though maybe IAAL is possibly worse.

Anyway, who am I fooling - I'm a banker.

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Presumably why no one using the OGL was allowed to mention DnD but instead referred to "the world's favorite roleplaying game" or some such wording.

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Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Look, the current PotUS is a total clown, but he's not doing anything his predecessor (who, btw, was also re-elected) didn't also do. And both of them routinely get away with stuff that would have given Nixon wet dreams.
No disagreement

Agreeing with Kirth. Nuff said.

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Rogar Stonebow wrote:
You don't have to buy it. My experiences tell me different. Go ahead and make your judgements, especially from your position.

Fair enough.

Though I get the impression the basic intent of this thread was maybe to slag off the US rather than discuss ethics and morality as such. I think it's a bit sad when (some of) the people who live in one of the beacons of the free world can't see the advantages they gain. No country is perfect, but there are some truly awful places to live, run by absolutely awful people who have no checks to their predations. And as a consequence their peoples suffer misery. They make the problems in the US look like pretty small beer, and anyone banging on to the contrary probably needs to gain a sense of perspective.

Oh, and the D&D alinment is system is a truly useless way to analyse a country.

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Honestly, I don't buy it Rogar. This is just political sloganeering. I don't know what stuff you buy into but I suggest you try reading something that doesn't just feed your prejudices. Most of the above post is hyperbolic or just plain wrong.

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Majority of people and businesses breaking the law? I expect we have all done speeding at some point but I don't see that as moral decay. And try driving in India if you think American driving is bad, or in lots of places in the Third World where road-based mortality is far higher than in the developed world. Or maybe Honduras, with its astonomical murder rate. I also think it is unlikely that there is a lot of corruption in the regulatory systems (incompetence is a different matter) since blatant abuses would be noticed. Again, maybe consider Russia, where the tax police are used as a way of crushing political dissent and destroying livelihoods. As for corrupt politicians: vote to get rid of them - you have the rights and abilities, unlike a lot of other places.

And I always get uncomfortable when people think they can second-guess the courts - they have legal barriers like reasonable doubt to ensure that its not too easy to deprive someone of their liberty - which is a good thing since that is a big deal, and I certainly wouldn't want to be locked up on flimsy evidence. Maybe sometimes the guilty do go free, but that is the price of freedom at a certain level. I don't see it as a problem with the system as such, nor is it obvious evidence of corruption in the US court system (unlike, say, Indonesia and lots of other places) nor are they a tool of the regime like they are in some other places (China, Russia, and lots of others). And I'm also not aware that infidelity is a crime except in some very repressive places.

I'd say most of what you said was basically untrue, or at best a very partial interpretation of the evidence. Sure, there will be exceptions - and oddly, people hear about them through your free press. If there weren't exceptions we wouldn't need laws and law enforecement. You seem to expect perfection, but then again people aren't perfect - that's why we need laws that are enforced and democracy. But overall I think you are failing to see the wood for the trees - the reason the US is extremely prosperous is due to the general successes and robustness of the system that works in general. There are many much worse places to live.

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Thinking about this on the way into work this morning, I came to the conclusion that you simply can't apply the alignment system to societies in this way. You can generally only express a totally "chaotic" approach to life - freedom to worship, freedom to love, freedom to pursue an ideosyncratic lifestyle - in a modern western-style nation because it is only with advanced societies - democracy, the rule of law - where your rights to do such things are defended by the state. But the very existence of a strong state that can both defend and serve the individual while maintaining the level of accountability to avoid becmong despotic implies a high level of lawfulness - legal protection - as the law must apply equally to those at all levels of society.

On the flip side, in a society where such legal protection does not exist, you are much more likely to be punished for being different, individualistic and "chaotic". More primitive societies do not value the rights of the individal anything like as much as western-type democracies do. So even though you may not have the edifices of law, in fact your ability to express yourself differently will be prosribed by the society you live in. You are probably much more likely to suffer arbitary violence and other sanction, without recourse, for trying to do so. See ISIS as an example, but there are loads of others.

So, in other words, you can only be genuinely chaotic in a law-based society. The paradox of which basically makes the alignment system pretty useless for describing societies.

You can close the thread now - I've found the answer.

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Rogar Stonebow wrote:

The US people seek justice, yet don't like the justice dished out by the courts.

The people try to bend the laws to their desires instead of what the laws were created for.

The people use laws to subjugate others by making those who work hard for their money to forcefully give money to the lazy people.

The people run their big businesses to cut govt. corners and ethical corners for the bigger buck.

The US is NOT LG, not the society and not govt.

Th basic problem is that the OP's question is basically faulty. Alignment isn't simply like that when applied to people, and applying it to a whole country is even more fraught with danger. Any conclusions would be extremely debatable, at best. RPGs are not real life.

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thejeff wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

In truly chaotic societies you are subject to arbitrary violence, seizure of your property, and so on, without recourse. No one values that. Being able to stay up past ten o'clock doesn't mean you have a chaotic society. At best you would CG as one of these imaginary anarchic communes where there are no laws and everyone somehow lives in harmony - but places like that don't actually exist.

And, let me get this right - the headcutters of ISIS are more lawful than the US? I don't know why I'm bothering to reply to someone who can seriously imply that.

Yes. Just more evil. (Assuming they're actually obeying their own rules and not making up arbitrary crimes to punish people for.)

All societies have rules. Of the Good ones, more chaotic ones place more value on individual freedoms and on justice over letter of the law. More lawful ones value tradition, structure and making the laws cover more and more edge cases so you don't need to make exceptions to reach justice.

At least that's how I see it.

Americans really make me laugh sometimes. Your society is not really that different to western Europe in organisation, yet you have this notion of yourselves as being so much more "free" than everyone else (and by implication Chaotic). Yet the vast majority of Americans live in urban communities, with all the municipal services and organisation implied by that. It is a technological society, with all the sophisticated supply chains and organisation that go with that. You have one of the largest bureaucracies in the world, with a vast number of regulators for many activities at both federal and state level. You have a large, powerful armed forces. You have law enforcement agencies at federal, state and municipal level and the same for your courts system. Your taxation system is byzantine. Your politic operates at multiple levels.

America is one of the capitalist countries on earth. As I said above, capitalism requires the rule of law, and effective justice system, and enforced property rights. Capitalism is most definitely NOT the law of the jungle as it is often portrayed, it requires an effective governmental system in which to operate. In other words, it is a construct of a lawful system. There is a bit of a disconnet between all you "whoo Chaos!" types and the system you actually live in.

Moreover, the freedoms in the US are also set out in specific detail in various constitutional documents and elaborated upon in reams of legislation. A significant proportion of the founding fathers, and in particular the people who drafted the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, were (I believe) lawyers. So your freedoms are framed in a specifically legalistic way and are, in any case, also strictly limited. You cannot, for example, kill someone just because they have annoyed you in some way, or because the happen to be a different religion, without some expectation that you will have some element of the law enforcement agencies on your case.

Moreover, the things you can do in the US are not all that different to the things you can do in western Europe. I'm trying to think of something you can do that is radically free compared to here in the UK. The best I can come up with is the right to bear arms, which is considered to be a pretty dumb freedom here. However, it is also the case that Switzerland has a high level of gun ownership, so it isn't unique (and Switzerland isn't exactly the most chaotic place out there either).

You notion that having your own rules somehow makes you lawful is frankly laughable. If those rules then change when it becomes convenient, it's just another form of arbitrary. Lawful isn't a state of mind, it is a system - at least in the context of what the OP's question was about in what makes a society Lawful Good. It takes much more than good intentions.

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In truly chaotic societies you are subject to arbitrary violence, seizure of your property, and so on, without recourse. No one values that. Being able to stay up past ten o'clock doesn't mean you have a chaotic society. At best you would CG as one of these imaginary anarchic communes where there are no laws and everyone somehow lives in harmony - but places like that don't actually exist.

And, let me get this right - the headcutters of ISIS are more lawful than the US? I don't know why I'm bothering to reply to someone who can seriously imply that.

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Paizo follows a model whereby it gave away the mechanics for free, and then made its money producing adventures for those mechanics. In other words, it gave you something to play on the system with. WotC decided that they would give a small bit of their mechanics away, hold the rest as IP so they could flog it, and outsourced the production of adventures almost entirely. I always maintained that if WotC had decided to actually produce adventures, rather than just splatbooks, during the time of 3e they wouldn't be in the problem they are now.

But in many ways, you can rewind further. The OGL was never really a master stroke for WotC. It was good for the industry but it's debatable how good it was for WotC - after all, they were keen to abandon it when 4e came along (don't know what the arrangements are for 5e, haven't paid attention). It is the OGL which allows Paizo to create Pathfinder and use it as the basis for its business, thereby using what is essentially WotC's creation to cannibalise their profits. In the end, how smart was that?

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Doomed Hero wrote:

Tibet springs to mind. A nation of Buddhists led by (arguably) the most peaceful leader in the world.

Then in 1950 China decided they would be better off without neighbors like that.

Tibet was a miserable medieval country rules by a religious dictatorship. It certainly wasn't peaceful. They very violently defneded their borders and tried to kill people coming in. Most dalai lamas died when they were poisoned by their courtiers. I don't mean to defend the Chinese invasion or the subsequent suppression of their culture, but the Tibet you are thinking of is fantasty Tibet.

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
The fact that America is generally a good place to live, work and invest suggests it is probably a lot more lawful than that. Real chaos would be somewhere like Somalia.
Not inherently, no. There are a few different ways for a nation to be Chaotic. Having no meaningful central government is one, but hardly the only one. A society can also be philosophically...

I think people misunderstand how western capitalism works. You need the rule of law, a functioning justice system, and property rights. These things don't come out of nowhere, they come from a strong state. By buying into that, you buy into the state's role in regulating behaviour. You can't do exactly what you want in America - the law won't let you do quite a lot of stuff. Most people understand why. So the fact that America is, as I said, a good place to do business and to live is because everyone gets the inherent bargain between state and individual. And suggests a lawful outlook. The fact that Americans are often (rightly) seen as being extremely ready to turn to the recourse of litigation to get their way also suggests a lawful outlook. The fact that individualism is also considered a big deal suggest not chaos, but good - freedom, within the bounds of the law, is good, I'm sure most of us can agree. America - Lawful Good (along with pretty much most of the western democracies).

But since there is no such thing as society, the original question's probably moot. And since notions of what is good and evil are, in any case, driven by context and culture - those guys chopping heads off in Syria almost certainly do not consider themselves evil at all - the question in the end makes no sense.

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The fact that America is generally a good place to live, work and invest suggests it is probably a lot more lawful than that. Real chaos would be somewhere like Somalia.

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Indeed - you are now beginning your advanced course in British slang.

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I always find it strange that people assume that any company is putting someone else's interests over their own - they exist to make money. Even the seeming altruism of Paizo is really about what they consider to be in Paizo's interests rather than the community's - it just so happens to maybe be a little more enlightened and closer to the fan base, being a specialist RPG firm when WotC is a divion of a much larger entity. I also suspect that Hasbro are probably unkeen on a website branded with DnD when actually it is promoting an old edition.

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Been feeling a bit manky this weekend - not at death's door, but it's nevertheless hard to summon up inspiration. I might be quiet for a day or two.

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Been feeling a bit manky this weekend - not at death's door, but it's nevertheless hard to summon up inspiration. I might be quiet for a day or two.

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No peeking, please Rarely Accountant 2/Auditor 4/Waster 30

Been feeling a bit manky this weekend - not at death's door, but it's nevertheless hard to summon up inspiration. I might be quiet for a day or two.

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No peeking, please Rarely Accountant 2/Auditor 4/Waster 30

Been feeling a bit manky this weekend - not at death's door, but it's nevertheless hard to summon up inspiration. I might be quiet for a day or two.

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Been feeling a bit manky this weekend - not at death's door, but it's nevertheless hard to summon up inspiration. I might be quiet for a day or two.

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Not entirely. There's a lot of rules content too, like PrC's, which remain non-OGL with Paizo. Which sounds like a lot of the stuff on DnDtools. And Paizo wouldn't have a leg to stand on if the orignal OGL, written by WotC, didn't allow them access to use 3e as the basis for their own system. Anyway, WotC isn't marketing 3e stuff anymore, whereas Paizo is still using PF, so the commercial imperatives are different in the current day and age. WotC may want to ensure they want to get paid when someone wants to use their IP. Or they may wish to restrict access to old edition material when they have a new editon to promote. Or maybe they don't want some pirate outfit implying it is an official WotC/DnD site when it isn't, using their (still ongoing) brand.

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Yeah, that's... an interesting programme, inconsistent in many ways. What Greece really needs is massive supply-side reform. Syriza instead want to entrench the rigidities. Seems like madness to me. But if they win it could also be the end of the euro.

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Haladir wrote:
And the bean-counters at Hasbro scratch their heads about why D&D lost its market-share to Pathfinder...

They weren't exactly gaining market share by letting people pirate their copyrighted material. Paizo protect a lot of their stuff under copyright too - all of the Golarion material is non-OGL. Again, I'm not too sure what was on DnDtools but the comparison with Pathfinder is not entirely apt.

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So you hate WotC because they enforced their ownership of copyright? Seems pretty reasonable to me, even if the game isn't marketed actively anymore - it still has a value that they are entitled to protect. Personally, I've never heard of this site anyway. I'm not close to this anymore, but are pdf's of this stuff available legally anywhere?

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Mulluq, with his darkvision, makes out the shape of a crouching spider.

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Details of Terendelev's scales are now in the campaign information page. I suggest you determine between you who gets which one and then copy the details into your character sheet.

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Enjoy!

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No worries - thanks for letting us know.

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Generally, big set-piece combats work best in PbP. Random fights are, as mottedior says, not worth the effort.

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There are ways around it to speed things up, but combat can be slow in PbP. On the other hand, I have had some really quite exciting combats on PbP. And, actually, combat is often the slowest thing in face-to-face games too.

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Yeah, having a good defender (and fighters are really the best at it) is quite a big deal. On balance I'd favour keeping him around, but wanted to ask.

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What do people want to do with Furio while Heathy is away? Do you want to keep him around as a friendly NPC defender or run as a foursome without him?

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That said, as I said above I generally operate on a first come-first served basis when selecting for a PbP. I think it can be a bit upsetting to have your character concept just rejected as inadequate, and the competition element makes what should be fun a bit tense instead. It's a bit less harsh to say "You just weren't quick enough" as it isn't a test of their roleplaying puissance but just a question of luck. I then prefer to work with a player on their concept to get something that works within the party rather than turfing them out before it can be developed. Often players will independently come up with ideas where you can, as DM, weave them together to create a more cohesive party.

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When stuff like that happens it is often down to an inexperienced DM. Someone who is not willing to be descriptive in their posts arguably shouldn't be playing PbP. But characters that are problematic are also largely an issue of the DM's.

In an early PbP I ran we had a character who ended up not liking the rest of the party. He was a moody youth-sort of character and while there was nothing wrong with the concept at first glance, the player effectively managed to roleplay himself out of the party and the game. In this instance it wasn't especially disruptive to other players but it wasn't a good result for the player (I guess - maybe he felt differently).

But then again, I didn't see it coming either. Now I'm quite careful to look at the basic concepts and where a character has some sort of difficult caharacter flaw or quirk I always make sure to warn the player not to end up making their character unviable in the party. While there is a stronger element of group-storytelling in PbP, it is still a game and requires the players to be able to cooperate. Therefore, it is generally much better, where the players have connections between them, that they have reasons to like one another rather than not. And it is also generally best to avoid characters who are "lone wolves" of some sort.

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No apology necessary, for me or any of us. I'm sure PbP isn't a bunch of guys (and ladies) singing "I'd like to teach the world to sing" either.

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Yeah, I'm very surprised by that too. I think you must have been unlucky, MEL. Especially as the rules discussion section of the boards always seems way more heated than anything over on the PbP side.

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