Thanks for the posts.
My intent seems to have been misunderstood by some posters, probably due to me not voicing it concretely enough:
Nor did I want to just list a roundabout "yeah,yeah casters at top, then 3/4, then martial etc. TADA!"-list.
The list I'd like us to create is - as described in the OP - specifically listing the strong and weak parts of the respective class. Ideally giving the reasoning behind the selected tiers for different parts of that class.
What Temeryn suggested is generally what I had in mind.
edit:@Rub-Eta could you share your experience (even on just one class)? I am totally on board that different people will have different play-experiences and different opinions.
On the other hand I think it is rather easy to see that the fighter would rate higher in the combat-tier, than he would in the utility-tier for example. (of course he could put everything into a high int, and use feats to become more utility focused, though that would imho be a rather rare build).
Disclaimer: English is NOT my first language, may contain grievous errors.
A comprehensive Class-Tier List?!
I'd like to have one :)
Though I am not the most mechanics-minded player/gm out there, I find mechanics quite important and an enjoyable part of the game. I – as many others – have the feeling that some classes simply do better than others in the grand scheme of things.
So I'd like there to be a resource analyzing this “apparent” phenomenon. This would have to be the first step to heal parts of the class-tier slope :)
I stumbled over the concept of a class's floor-performance and it's ceiling-performance in a forum-post lately (to be honest I don't know which one, or if it even has been on the Paizo-boards... but: credits to you!).
I'd like to include this concept, because it helps (new) players, who are then able to choose a class with a high floor-perfomance. And it may help gms (and maybe designers?) to raise the floor- (and/or ceiling-) performance of the low tiers.
I think the focus should be on Paizo's published classes, though I see no reason why 3pp classes should be excluded from this list.
I suggest we use the following format for the classes:
Combat Tier This obviously rates the combat performance of the class.
Utility Tier How well does this class function as a general problem-solver? Does it have many skillpoints? Does it have access to a good array of class-skills, to a many of them? Does it have other abilities for problem-solving, i.e. spells or class-abilities?
I will likely have missed tons of things in this opening post, so please post them at your leisure!
As we gather content for this list (to say: IF we do that, maybe we just discuss the whole time, heh.) I'll make a new thread with said content or maybe it would warrant a google-doc?!
For your formatting convenience:
I find this sentence very important. That's what we sign up for: the heroics. The feeling when the group succeeds against all odds. Bloody and beaten up, but alive and satisfied that they took a hard fight and won.
I, for one, can only really feel this, only really enjoy such situations in a game if I know that it is *real*.
If I know my GM is pulling his punches, has bosses moving on when they should finish a threat, even when he fudges dice - then the magic is lost for me.
It's exactly as SheepishEidolon says: It's trivial to GM-fiat any character to death which is bad when it's done.
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Here's a little Fighter variant I threw together.
Commentary on the variant for those interested ;):
"Standard": 4+Int skill points, another good progression save choosable by the fighter, and 2 additional choosable class skills.
Capability in combination with Vicissitude technically gives the fighter scaling for some, but not all feats.
This frees up feats for either combat purposes OR out of combat uses, and makes it easier to qualify for them.
Here's the link
To the thing with the one bad save, and the dissent on what a second good save for fighters could be:
I also strongly agree that the fighter could do with at least 4 skill points per level. Also add 2 additional class skills that each fighter can choose.
I can't for any reason see why he needs to take down the character?
just talk to him about his mistakes in building the druid and try to make the game fun for everyone.
The build is shining if your group fights only a small group of enemies or if the fights are short. If they have to go through many smaller challenges in a row he shines...not so much, and others will get their spotlight.
No need to "take down" anyone. A GM always wins if he wants to, no need to ruin your game that way, though.
*Fighters are specialized masters of following orders and slaying things*
Following orders? I always thought all classes where there for the heroics. Can't wrap my head around that...
You can fluffify any class in any way you want (and play them in a great many different and customizable ways). Preconceptions are not your friend ;)
I'm firmly in the "no 2nd edition pf"-camp.
Abraham spalding wrote:
I don't know too much about barbarians, but I bet I could come up with a barbarian-build that would suck rather hard. ;)
But isn't that kind of part of the rogue-package?8+Int Skillpoints + many class skills + cool talents = being able to do almost anything (and get away with it)?
Well now, if you want to kill the barbarian no matter the cost (and I mean that quite literally), I think poison has it's merits. Especially so, if, as the OP conceded, our rogue gets a surprise round.
Warning: Ideally I assume the rogue gets the drop on the barbarian, but he could always just have his poison already applied to his (efficient-quivered)arrows. I don't know of a rule that the poison would denaturate.
I'll take 12th lvl, 20 point-buy as a basis for this example.
At lvl 12 you could either get a belt of +2 for 2 ability scores
Rage is already greater at lvl 12 so another +6/+6 to Str and Con
Base Fort-save 8
Rogue goes Full-Dex, a bit Con to live longer and Cha cause rogues are dashing ;) Poisoner Archetype as not to poison himself by accident.
Every dose of poison ups the DC by +2, buy or craft 12 (24) doses of Deathblade poison (Deathblade, injury 20, 1/rd. for 6 rds., 1d3 Con, 2 saves, 1,800 gp a piece)
If he blows his save he'll get 1d3 Con damage which will make it harder to make the save on future rounds. 2hits will make this 9 possible rds, 3hits will make it 12 rds and 4hits will make it 15 rds.
Conclusion: If we blow our money on poison we get a pretty good chance of killing the Barbarian (even if he may kill us before he bites it).
Hello fellow RPG dudes and dudesses!
Praying Mantis Feat-Tree
Emerald Claw Strike
With a swift strike from an unexpected angle, you throw your opponent off balance.
Attitude of the Praying Mantis
Grasping Mantodea Whirlwind
Arms of Ten-Thousand razors
Acute Insectile Swerve
Fastening Hook-Claw Meditation
Tenacity of the Mantis' clutch
Thanks for reading and all feedback is welcome.