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Liberty's Edge

I actually found that just yesterday! It was a great read!
I had thought about Agile and I may well go that way, but it does mean using another feat which I find I am already struggling with. Also I hate spending my money on that.
Course, if I cannot get the stats I want, then it is a Plan B.

Liberty's Edge

Very cool build. Was Improved Shield Bash worth it? I mean I assume punching is mostly used and when shield is used it is more for the throw in which case the Shield Bash Feat is not so important?
I was going to take it when Shield was going to be my everything weapon, but not so sure now.

I will likely boost Dex more at the cost of some stats to help max armor and a little boost to range attacks - for when I am not throwing it to do a trick.

Brawling is definitely a winner, that and Amulet is easy investment for fists, I can then improve the shields defense a bit :)

Liberty's Edge

Man, this class is tricky to decide on! I am wanting a char fun to play which is why I went with it, but figuring out if I will have more fun bashing and throwing the shield around or punching and occasionally throwing the shield is tricky! I am not overly worried about all out optimising, though obviously want to be effective.

I think I need to look into all those shield feats mentioned too!
Thanks for all the advice, if you have anything else to throw in please keep it coming, even example builds you or a friend have messed around with! Everything helps generate ideas!

Also, sure they errate pummelling but haven't bothered giving Shield Champ shield proficiency!

Liberty's Edge

Interesting. Reading the ability, it states you can throw a medim or light shield as a normal thrown weapon with a range increment of 10 feet or the shields range increment. Has there been an official ruling on this? It suggests to me that if this allows you to throw a Throwing Shield without penalty, then there is no reason why it cannot be thrown at the increased range without the penalty as it is still part of the same ability.

Another question, I assume the answer is no, but with the Shield Trained Trait making a Heavy Shield a light weapon, with Throwing and Quickdraw, is it then also a Free Action to Don the weapon again or is that just a Quickdraw Shield benefit?

I think I am leaning towards melee focused with shield as back up, though being a full time shielder is tempting - I guess if I were to make the Shield my full time weapon I would make use of Pummelling Style as a flexible feat for my fist on occassions it is required.
My only concern with having the shield as a back up, is that in reality it won't really ever be used - I mean why bother throwing a shield even for DR mobs when I can just Pummel them anyway?

A Cestus I assume would work with Pummelling Strike as you would be punching and the Feat does not specifically state unarmed strike, however I guess the Brawler enchant would not work. A shame rally because I would like to avoid the ovepriced Amulet of the Mighty Fist.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks for the advice, I was mainly looking at focusing on shield simply to keep benefits suchas weapon focus etc. At all times, but you make a great point about using flexibilty feats for that.
I was somewhat in two minds regarding whether to focus on a dedicated shield thrower or use the range aspect as a side thing and focus on melee as primary. Sounds like using it as a secondary means of attack would be better.
How much is the brawler armor, is it an enchant like a +1 or specific armor?
Also, doesn't the Throwing add on to shields require exotic proficiency?

Liberty's Edge

Hi all, I will be starting a Brawler PFS character soon and have decided to mess around with the Brawler and the Shield Champion archetype, so was hoping the experts here may be able to give some advice on various directions to take the character. I also have some general questions that are probably easily answered:

1) I haven't seen any official errata's for the Shield Champ, am I to assume that currently in PFS I need to take the trait to become proficient with shields as a weapon?
Also, I assume we still lose the AC bonus from class progression when using the shield?

2) If I want to make use of the shield throwing aspect, in order to keep the AC bonus from the shield I will need Quickdraw Feat + Quickdraw light shield? I cannot do it with a Heavy shield or a Throwing Shield?

So, those are the opening questions, now when it comes to the build,
Race and Stats are still up for grabs, likely Human for bonus Feat or stat, or Half Elf to help with Will saves.

Traits - Shield Trained, Shield Bearer (if PFS legal)

Feats -
1) Improved Shield Bash (maybe, until I get to the point of enhancing the shields armor, the AC is not that important, heck, Dodge would be better)
2) Weapon Focus
3) Power Attack
5) Weapon Specialisation & ?

That's really just from quickly throwing some ideas down, I am very much open to suggestion. Likely a Style Feat will get added somewhere, I have to admit I am an AC junky, so the idea of Crane Style in there is tempting, though the -2 to hit along with Flurry may be painful.

Another thing that would be appreciated is people's suggestions of what kind of Feats I should have 'at the ready' for taking advantage of the ability to gain temporary Feats - So that I can create a kind of Cheat Sheet of preprepared Feats great for situational use (e.g. Improved Trip etc. Blind Fight, is there a Feat that lets you ignore difficult terrain?). Basically anything nifty that could be great in some unlikely situation.

Thanks for any and all help.

Liberty's Edge

At low lvl it's easier to just eat the AoO. Especially if Dex based your AC is quite good at lvl1, if they miss you cast without having to make any check, if they do manage to hit the concentration check is 10+1+damage I believe, so they have to do 6 damage to make the concentration check as hard as if you cast defensively

Liberty's Edge

Yes, casters are the easiest to max out without crippling the Character.

7 Str
10 Dex
16 Con
11 Wis
20 Int
7 Cha

As an example Wizard. Is the character in bad shape? Is it worth making him more balanced? Lots of skill points, great hp for survivability.
Str is worthless, Dex means low initiative which is a shame but if you really want to improve it just take Con down a bit, or if planning on using rays then boost Dex to 14 and Con down to 14.

A sorcerer would be the same except Int would be what suffered so less skill points.

Course, if you really want to go all out, go Human, sacrifice the Feat and Skills to get two +2 stats to get Con to 18 with an Int of 20 to be a tough genius (or for 14 Dex, 16 Con, 18 Int)

Liberty's Edge

lemeres wrote:

A few things: while I am sure that is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of the rules as written, the question remains: does his GM know that? Duxx Allard, you did not know either when making your character concept. Unless your GM knows about this thread, then why not pretend we never mentioned this little detail?

Remember, this is a GM that thinks that power attack is over powered.I doubt he would house rule in favor of the more lenient interpretation.

Ah, but on the other side of the coin. I would be using the no power Attack houserule as a bartering tool. The GM wants you to do a favour by not using something he feels is crazy powerful, you want to be able to use an ability that is part of the char concept and can help make up for the big loss of a 2her not having Power Atk.

On another note, our group also agrees that Power Atk is too good, we have actually houseruled it to make it less powerful but also to help ease the game away from its 'full round attacks!' mantra.

PAtk is -1 +3 as per usual, however, the additional boosts (extra -1+3)only occur if you are making a single attack in the round, so if ypu make a standard action you don't have to feel your damage is woefully inadequate.

Finally, your GM probably doesn't know that rule - most tend not to differentiate between all this 'standard action or attack action, full round action, full attack action' simply that something is either a standard action or a full round action

Liberty's Edge

This is a debate that would never end. You are entirely right in your understanding of the rules and so any arguement I have is purely my own opinion which is based on my feeling of the rules in general. These feelings aren't wrong anymore than they can be considered right, they simply are. But my feelings towards the game are my issue which cannot be resolved. The issue with these particular rules are just one of the many I have, perhaps after so many years of dnd and pathfinder I have just become jaded. What started as minor issues that are simply part of any game (nothing is ever perfect) have now grown to feel like an overwhelming weight. We find households becoming more and more necessary within our games to try and iron out flaws or broken skills/abilities.

Well, whatever the reason it is not one anyone else can solve. I give my thanks to you kazaan for taking the time to explain the finer details of the rules. Funny, after all these years only now did this differentiation even come up as before any more details than standard or full round were not relevant to our games. Always something new to learn.

Liberty's Edge

Double slice allows you to move and attack twice - it is a standard action. Special use...or whatever is just a sideline of additional complexities that are unnecessary.

Free Action
Move Action
Standard Action (anything that allows you to still have a move action)
Full Action (something that prevents you from making a move action)
Swift Action
Immediate Action

Why things are additionally broken down into Full attack action, full special use action or whatever else they have thrown names to, it is excessive complexity without cause. Now I am aware it is my opinion and others disagree, I just think there is a fine line between a System and a suffocating excess of rules

Liberty's Edge

No because there is no ability to enhance the Combat Casting. If later on there was 'Improved Combat Casting' which works like ITWF but except your offhand is used for casting spells, then yes you can cast 2 spells.

The text states it works as TWF except with a spell as offhand attack but does not offer a way of improving this.

Spell Combat is a Full Round action.
Spellstrike is a Full Round action.
Multiple Attacks is a Full Round action.

But in addition to this the rules decide that multiple attacks will also be a Full attack action while the others are not. It is an absurd extra differentiation that is entirely unnecessary.

As part of a Full Round action I can attack multiple times via Spellstrike, but this cannot be a Full attack action even though my actions involve doing so albeit via a spell. Heck, if I stab someone and cast Fireball using Spell Combat, that is two attacks, one via weapon, one via spell, but both offensive, both attacks, however this cannot be considered a full attack action, only a full round one.

If a spell has a cast time of a round is that a Full Round action or is it classed as a Full casting action? Is there a differentiation here? Does there need to be?

All to often it seems the game comes up with rules for the sake of rules, most of which strangle the freedom of creation and imagination which is rather ironic for a Roleplaying game.

Don't get me wrong, the fact the build is not viable is no big deal, I make all sorts of silly characters, many of which aren't even close to a min/max but instead more of an abstract idea, so this not being viable is just another build to be binned, my issue is the reasons why it is not viable: excessive mechanical pedantic rules which do very little to actually enhance the game but instead seem to be designed to constrict.

Liberty's Edge

So you can use specific abilities like Cleave but not specific abilities like Spell Combat.

But Spell Combat works like TWF except a spell is being cast, but TWF can be used defensively yet Spell Combat cannot.

However, Spellstrike involves attacking via spell through your blade, at which point Spellstrike is essentially having you make a full round attack - the spell cast is part of your attack, as a full round you are attacking multiple times as if TWF, yet are we saying this does not count? WIth Spell Combat I accept casting Grease then attacking is not a Full Attack, but to me Spellstrike is as the the spell you cast is offensive and delivered via an attack.

Pathfinder/D&D become more and more absurd the indepth you get with the rules.

Thank god for houserules to actually give players some semblence of freedom to build a char

Liberty's Edge

Magus is the absolute winner for low wealth, especially if you enjoy the Magus (unfortunately I guess if you already have one you won't use another?)

Starting at lvl 10 is a dream for this build too because its biggest weakness is lvls 1-5. There is a way to get the Crane styles earlier than the way I am showing, but as you will be 10 it does not matter.

Human, lvl 7 Kensai Bladebound Magus/2 Sacred monk of the Mountain & Monk of Many Styles)

Str: 10 (or 13 if you want Power Atk)
Dex: 18
Con 12
Int: 17 (18 at lvl 4)
Wis: 14 (or if going with Str 13 likely drop this score down)
Cha: 7
+1 stat point at lvl 8 wherever you want.
You could take Wis to 13, Str to 12 then at lvl 8 raise one and at 12 raise the other in order to get the AC and Power Atk
(Lose bonus Feat and skill point to get 2 x +2 stats as Human alternative trait)

As Kensai you get Exotic Weapon Proficienct (Aldori Duelling Blade) and Weapon Focus.

Traits:
Magical Lineage Shocking Grasp
Sword Scion: +1 To Hit with Aldori sword or Longsword

Feats:

1) Weapon Finesse
3) Dodge
5) Dazzling Display, Power Atk/Intensify Spell/Whatever you fancy (lvl 5 Bonus Feat as Magus)
6) Aldori Sword Mastery (taking the Prestige Class)
7) Crane Style & Crane Wing (lvl of Monk of Many Styles)
8) Crane Riposte (lvl of MoMS again)(Toughness bonus Feat and +1 AC thanks to Sacred Mountain)
9) Intensify Spell/Whatever you want
11) Weapon Specialisation
Defensively this build gives you:

AC: 10+4(Dex)+4(Int)+2(Wis)+2(Aldori Duelling Mastery)+1(Dodge)+4(Fighting Defensively, 3 thanks to Crane, 1 for having 3 points in Acrobatics)

Total AC: 27, assuming someone is a Wizard with Mage Armour, that's 31 AC without spending a penny (well, maybe a Pearl of Poweer for the Kind Wizard)

In addition you can Parry an attack each round - which means casting in combat for your 2 attacks is a non-issue as you can Parry the AoO it would cause.

You also get an Initiative of +10 (4 Dex, 4 Int, 2 from Aldori Mastery)

Obviously, the cost of all this is less spell lvls and spell damage, but if you have a Wizard, then you aren't relied upon for fancy high lvl spells and are an effective frontline fighter. Certainly a fun kind of PC balanced between survival and damage.

If you really want to try pushing AC higher, you could even take a lvl in Metal Wizard, you would lose a BAB, but Metal Wizard can give you 70 mins a day of +2 AC (+1 one more per 5 CASTER lvls, so a total of +3 which raises AC to 31 or 35 with Mage Armour which you can now cast yourself, in addition to having more Shocking Grasps)

If you really wanted to risk your To Hit you could get Combat Expertise for more AC boosting

So, with Kensai and Bladebound you need no money on gear. With you 10k you could look to buy:
+2 Dex (Improve AC, To Hit and Damage) 4k
Ring of Protection +1 2k
Amulet of Natural Armour +1 2k
Pearl of Power I x2

That's 3 more AC so 38 AC if adding Wizard, 35 if not. Alternatively you could get belt of Dex and Headband of Int then with 2k to spare buy Ring of Prot or Pearls of Power.

BAB is +7
To Hit: +7(BAB)+5(Dex)+2(Blackblade)+1(Weapon Focus)+1(Sword Scion)
Total +16/+11
Spellstrike: +14/+14/+9

Your general damage output will be:
1d8+7/1d8+7 (+5 Dex assuming Belt, +2 Blackblade) +7D6 Shocking Grasp (Spellstrike)/1d8+7 second attack.

If you went the Power Attack route that could be:
+12/+12/+7 To Hit
1d8+11/1d8+11+7D6/1d8+11
With Weapon Specialisation at lvl 11 that's an extra +2 per Hit.
And of course an extra attack per round if someone tries to attack when you cast your spell.

Finally, your saves:

Fort: +5(Magus)+3(Monk)+1(Con): +9
Reflex:+2(Magus)+3(Monk)+1(Aldori)+5(Dex):+11
Will:+5(Magus)+3(Monk)+2(Wis): +10

So, not your orthodox Magus, and probably not the greatest around, but for low Magic campaign pretty tempting and fun. Nothing better than a butt naked dude not being hit

Liberty's Edge

I run an 18 Str Half Orc that uses a Falchion.
There are 3 key reasons for Half Orc:
1) Falchion proficiency for a nice 2h
2) Bonus to Intimidate
3) Bite Atk

He is a Scout Thug Rogue.

The Build relies on getting Shatter Defenses and Cornugans Smash.
Rogue Talent allows Str to be added to Cha for Intimidate checks (and Half Orc gives +2 to checks)

The basic premise is:
2h so good damage even when not SA and avoids reliance of full attacks
Having a BIte attack to help maximise SA on occassions when a full attack is possible
Helping the team by debuffing

round 1:
Charge for Power Atk, Free Intimidate and also Sa thanks to Scout ability.
Mob is shaken (-2 To Hit, Saves)
Thug ability makes the Intimidate last 1 round longer so assuming success, you have at least 2 rounds of a Shaken opponent.
Due to charge allowing an SA on first attack, you can forgo one SA dice to make the opponent sickened (-2 To Hit, -2 Damage, -2 saves)

So at the end of round 1 the opponent has:
-4 To Hit
-4 To Saves
-2 To damage
Is vulnerable to SA from you without the need to flank. So, not only have you debuffed the enemy which makes you the wizard's best friend, but you have lined yourself up to do nice damage without relying on others (and increased the chance of the opponent hitting you or friends)

round 2:
Full Atk: Mob is Intimidated therefore flat footed, and so SA without needing to flank. Do not use Power Atk unless you need to re-intimidate.
Attack with blade for 2d4+6 + XD6
Attack with Bite (-5 To Hit, hence not using Power Atk in order to maximise chance of hits and SA) 1d4+2 + XD6

One downside to the build is the time it takes to get all you need thanks to stupid Rogue BAB and Feat requirements. A kind GM may let you houserule to fudge some requirements, afterall the Rogue is not exaclty overpowered and it can be the GMs way of thanking you for not being a Ninja :). On the upside, due to high Str, Power Atk and a 2h weapon, the early lvls allow you to Hit hard as a basic in your face fighter type and at lvl 4 the Scout ability at least allows you to get some SA in without the need to flank.
The other downside is the loss of Trapfinding which begs the question why be a Rogue? But if you like the class for what it is then why not.

Liberty's Edge

I've been playing around with various builds for multiclassing and I have looked at Unarmed FIghter a number of times, but so far after 2 lvls of MoMS I just haven't seen a need for it and it has not been worth dipping into - by the time you get your crane style you are likely already qualified to start working on another style anyway as once you have Improved Unarmed Fighting itis fairly easy to do.
In some cases the only temptation of unarmed FIghter was for the extra feat more than the need for a style without prerequisites, at which point it didn't need to be Unarmed Fighter at all.

Also, if going MoMS, unless you really want Evasion, I recommend going Sacred Mountain archetype as well for Toughness and +1 AC

Liberty's Edge

Aelryinth wrote:

If you were talking a barbarian:

A +5 Ferocious Courageous Keen Ghost Touch Discipline (Iron Heart or Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw, pick your Stance) is the following:

Ghost Touch, so can harm ANYTHING.
Starts as +8/+5 as long as you are in a stance devoted to the same discipline.
Is +10/+7 the instant you rage.
Increases your bonus from Rage by 50% (+4/+4 Str/Con becomes +6/+6, etc), which effectively means another +1/+1, for +11/+8 while Raging.

You could swap in Valorous for double damage on a charge, if you are using a Pounce build, and swap out Keen.

A Fighter would use a +5 Ghost Touch Adaptive Discipline Valorous something weapon. +9/+6 if he has Weapon Focus in it, all the time, Ghost Touch, double damage on a charge.

For Rogues, nothing beats a Sword of Subtlety getting +4/+4 th/dmg if they qualify to dish out a SA...even if the target is SA immune!

For Rangers, +2 spent for Hunter's Bane on all FE's is hard to beat.

==Aelryinth

Is that right? Sword of Subtlety works even against immune monsters?

Liberty's Edge

I have to admit, I wouldn't give up spells for anything, especially giving up the ability to use wands too. If like me you aren't a big fan of dallying around too much with magic it is still worth keeping spells and simply picking very Paladinish ones.

Lvl 1 spells give you the ability to use Lay on Hands as an immediate action if you drop below 0 HP - awesome ability (best enhancement to LoH you can get I think!)

Lvl 2 spell there is one which as an immediate action allows you to take the damage instead of an ally - also amazing.

Lvl 3 I think gives Greater Magic Weapon (might be 4) which lasts hours (pretty much the day) and boosts your weapon nicely. Amazing ability and not something you have to think about or use up valuable combat actions for.

Those spells alone make it far more beneficial to you than any abilities you give up and they require no real thought (the first 2 are simply thoughts that go through yourh head when something goes wrong ' damn, if only I could...' with them you can).

Taking nothing but them will make the difference between life and death, missing and hitting a monster. All take and forget kind of spells, none wasting combat time.

Liberty's Edge

I may have a fine proposal for you. THough first I will say I am not a fan of Master of Many Styles - if you go with that then his best options is to multiclass out after 2 lvls (usually with Unarmed Fighter)

Anyway, I have a build I have been using which has been very effective at protecting my party (a party that consists of a Wizard, Rogue, CLeric and myself, so as the closest thing to a front liner we have, protecting the team is essential)

The best way to protect your allies is to either stop monsters from reaching them, doing enough damage to make them focus on you, or be too annoying to ignore.

I opted for the third option which in turn actually qualifies for the other two. It is a tripping build - my first manoevre build in fact despite many years of playing.

The strategy is a simple one, move in, trip, hit, monster stands, trip. monster attacks me - counter attack trip. At high level, monster attacks my allie - counter attack trip.

It seems as though this build fits his requirements, its damage is reasonable more from many attacks rather than few big ones, defensively it is rock solid, and it is very good at keeping friends from harms way.

I won' take offense if the build is not to taste, but based on Primary and Secondary Goal this seemed suitable. I have now reached lvl 7 with my monk and loving it.

Quingong Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain

Str: 16
Dex: 18 (20 with a belt recently bought)
Con: 13 (14 as of lvl 4 stat bump)
Int 7
Wis: 14 (16 with headband recently bought)
Cha: 7

Obviously these were with 20 point buy. Looking at the stats he has the key ones are there. I don't know if there is any flexibility but if not, no big deal. I would recommend his lvl 4 bonus point be for Dex and lvl 8 Wis

Worshipper of Torag (important for trait)

Traits:

Defensive Strategist (Am not considered Flat Footed even when I have not yet acted in Combat - Very important as Dex is a big part of my AC)

Indomitable Will (+1 WIll save because it can never be too high)

Feats:

Lvl 1:
Vicious Stomp - Unarmed AoO when I trip someone (Important as I am too dumb for Combat Expertise and therefore Greater Trip)

Fury's Fall - Add Str and Dex when making a Trip (important again because no Greater Trip and because both my build and your friend's is high Dex and Str)

Improved Trip - +2 when Tripping, no AoOs against me

Lvl 2 - Nothing due to losing bonus Feat from Archetype (well worth it though tanks to the gains)

Lvl 3:
Combat Reflexes - More AoO (Thank goodness!)

From there he would be free to go wherever with Feats. I personally took Dodge at 5, Finesse at 6 (but that is because I have 20 Dex, would be a waste for your friend) then at 7 I took Crane Wing to indulge in more defense as required.

My AC is in the 30s at lvl 7 and Ki can boost higher, Flowing Monk allows me to immediately trip an opponent when he attacks me or an ally which results in them on the floor, possibly sickened and then stomped on. From there they have a To Hit penalty against their target. When they try get up I knock them down again.

Ultimately the build provides the following:
1) You become a focus target because you are irritating
2) You esentially give allies +4 AC by keeping monsters on the floor
3) You restrict monster mobility by keeping them on the floor - thus protecting allies
4) You improve everyone's to hit by keeping the monster on the floor
5) You provide Rogues with Sneak Attack damage as your AoOs can cause flat footedness (aka every trip and vicious stomp)
6) You have rock solid AC to help keep alive while you are focused on
7) You do lot of damage in a round - Flurry of BLows first attack Trips, Vicious Stomp attack, 2nd and 3rd attack from Flurry. Monster tries getting up - Trip, Vicious Stomp, your turn again

Apologis for the long post, but just thought I would throw out a build I ma getting familiar with which does al ot of what your friend seems to want.

The most fun I had with this build was being blinded by a cleric, being surrounded by 6 monsters and holding them off on my own while my allies carried on dealing with 2 zombies and eventually the Cleric. In game the group chars did not even know I ws blind as all they could see was me dealing very well despite being surrounded.
Also tripping a Spider was funny.

Liberty's Edge

Using a Trip weapon is always smart, as long at it is not with Reach you can still make use of Vicious Stomp. Course if you are a Monk of the Sacred Mountain, assuming you start and end in the same spot, you cannot be countertripped anyway

Liberty's Edge

Hmm, first thing I would do is go Half Elf instead of Human.

As a Fighter you get lots of Feats, as a Two Handed Fighter you don't need all that many Feats.

As a Fighter your Will sucks. Going Half Elf goes a long way to solving that issue: Replace Adaptability with +2 Will Saves, this in addition to the +2 you already get for mind effecting spells (the scary ones!) puts you in a good place.

Take the Trait Indomitable Will and at lvl 1 you are a Fighter with an effective +5 Will against the scary spells. Add in Iron Will witho ne of your Feats and that is +7 to mask the innate poopy save you have as a Fighter

Liberty's Edge

If wanting pure monk, I have a build I have been using recently which has been a lot of fun. The build has high AC so that you can stand and take focus, but more importantly he is also a pain in the butt which gives the bad guys reason to want to try take you down.

Quingong Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain

Str: 16
Dex: 18 (20 with a belt recently bought)
Con: 13 (14 as of lvl 4 stat bump)
Int 7
Wis: 14 (16 with headband recently bought)
Cha: 7

Worshipper of Torag (important for trait)

Traits:

Defensive Strategist (Am not considered Flat Footed even when I have not yet acted in Combat - Very important as Dex is a big part of my AC)

Indomitable Will (+1 WIll save because it can never be too high)

Feats:

Lvl 1:
Vicious Stomp - Unarmed AoO when I trip someone (Important as I am too dumb for Combat Expertise and therefore Greater Trip)

Fury's Fall - Add Str and Dex when making a Trip (important again because no Greater Trip

Improved Trip - +2 when Tripping, no AoOs against me

Lvl 2 - Nothing due to losing bonus Feat from Archetype

Lvl 3:
Combat Reflexes - More AoO (Thank goodness!)

Lvl 5:
Dodge - +1 AC

Lvl 6:
Weapon Finesse - Use Dex for To Hit (My stomps were missing too much, taking this meant getting the Dex to 20 gives an extra +2 To Hit)

Lvl 7:
Crane Style - +3 AC for -2 To Hit (Negates my Weapon Finesse, have only just reached lvl 7 so not confirmed whether or not to take this)

Key aspects of the build:

The Wis was lower than Dex due to the high number of AoOs I can make, I needed heavy Dex, that and the fact it boosts my Trip.

AC is good enough to avoid a lot:
10+5(Dex)+1(Monk)+1(Sacred Mountain)+1(Dodge)+3(Wis)=21 AC

Pearl of Power means Wizard keeps Mage Armour on me for +4 AC
Ring of Protection gives +1 AC

So I have a standard AC of 26.
When staying in same spot that becomes 28 AC.
Every mob (up to 3) gives additional AC, so my stand still AC is typically 29-31.

At lvl 7 Quingong Monk gives me access to Barkskin for an additional +3 AC. So AC is now 32-34.

If I go with Crane Style that puts AC to 35-37. Course, if monster is on floor that effectively adds 4 more. Then there is Ki to spend if needs be

Offensively I think I am running with +16 for Trip (without Crane modifier).

The Pros to this build is that while I don't do big damage, I have up to 3 attacks plus AoOs which thanks to my Str means I do reasonable damage when not tripping.

The Con of this build is that staying still for a round can be tricky assuming the monster moves 5ft. Most the time I just accept this, though I do carry a reach weapon - obviously the Reach weapon does not allow me to Vicious Stomp, but it still allows me to stay still for extra AC if required and lets me perform my primary duty of controlling the situation.

So it is a very fun build. I even tripped a Spider once.

Liberty's Edge

Certainly a fine strategy. I have been playing around with my own Monk Tripper but appraoched it a little differently to yours - I pumped strength and dumped Cha and Int (I know, shame on me). He is currently lvl 7 and has been Most Valuable Player many a time in own games.

Human Quingong Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain

Str: 16
Dex: 18 (20 with a belt recently bought)
Con: 13 (14 as of lvl 4 stat bump)
Int 7
Wis: 14 (16 with headband recently bought)
Cha: 7

Worshipper of Torag (important for trait)

Traits:

Defensive Strategist (Am not considered Flat Footed even when I have not yet acted in Combat - Very important as Dex is a big part of my AC)

Indomitable Will (+1 WIll save because it can never be too high)

Feats:

Lvl 1:
Vicious Stomp - Unarmed AoO when I trip someone (Important as I am too dumb for Combat Expertise and therefore Greater Trip)

Fury's Fall - Add Str and Dex when making a Trip (important again because no Greater Trip

Improved Trip - +2 when Tripping, no AoOs against me

Lvl 2 - Nothing due to losing bonus Feat from Archetype

Lvl 3:
Combat Reflexes - More AoO (Thank goodness!)

Lvl 5:
Dodge - +1 AC

Lvl 6:
Weapon Finesse - Use Dex for To Hit (My stomps were missing too much, taking this meant getting the Dex to 20 gives an extra +2 To Hit)

Lvl 7:
Crane Style - +3 AC for -2 To Hit (Negates my Weapon Finesse, have only just reached lvl 7 so not confirmed whether or not to take this)

Key aspects of the build:

The Wis was lower than Dex due to the high number of AoOs I can make, I needed heavy Dex, that and the fact it boosts my Trip.

AC is good enough to avoid a lot:
10+5(Dex)+1(Monk)+1(Sacred Mountain)+1(Dodge)+3(Wis)=21 AC

Pearl of Power means Wizard keeps Mage Armour on me for +4 AC
Ring of Protection gives +1 AC

So I have a standard AC of 26.
When staying in same spot that becomes 28 AC.
Every mob (up to 3) gives additional AC, so my stand still AC is typically 29-31.

At lvl 7 Quingong Monk gives me access to Barkskin for an additional +3 AC. So AC is now 32-34.

If I go with Crane Style that puts AC to 35-37. Course, if monster is on floor that effectively adds 4 more. Then there is Ki to spend if needs be

Offensively I think I am running with +16 for Trip (without Crane modifier).

The Pros to this build is that while I don't do big damage, I have up to 3 attacks plus AoOs which thanks to my Str means I do reasonable damage when not tripping.

The Con of this build is that staying still for a round can be tricky assuming the monster moves 5ft. Most the time I just accept this, though I do carry a reach weapon - obviously the Reach weapon does not allow me to Vicious Stomp, but it still allows me to stay still for extra AC if required and lets me perform my primary duty of controlling the situation.

So it is a very fun build. I even tripped a Spider once.

Liberty's Edge

I am actually making a Rogue for a new Campaign, the build I am going with is far from optimal but should be fun and capable of doing stuff in combat whilst being a pure Rogue (I don't really like Rogues but it is overdue I tried one out to see what I can make of one). I know you already have a build, but this may come in usein future if your wife is always Rogues but once to have an impact in combat

Thug/Scout Archetype
Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

(we do a wierd 24 point buy but you cannot negative stats to min/max)
As you are a 25 point buy you can either boost Con to 14, or make another stat 13.

The Build is Half Orc for Falchion proficiency and the boost to Intimidation (should have an Intimidate of +15 at lvl 6 based on Orc, Class skill, 6 ranks, Str. More if you made Cha your 13 stat)

Get rid of Orc Ferocity and replace it with Sacred Tatoo (+1 all saves)

As you are GM and can house rule, I would suggest you be lenient with some Feat prereqs (the +1 BAB for Weapon Focus and Power Attack are a pain) Rogues have a hard enough time, preventing useful Feats at lvl 1 is just mean.

1. Power Attack
2.(Rogue Talent)Weapon Focus (It has a specific Talent name but thats what it does)
3. Dazzling Display
4. (Rogue Talent) Intimidating Prowess
5. Shatter Defenses (IF you are feeling generous, though it needs a BAB of +6 I think so you may not want to be that nice)
6. (Rogue Talent) Cornugan Smash

The idea of this build is to not need anyone else to help you Sneak Attack. Once you have Shatter Defenses and the Smash, you use the Scout ability to Sneak Attack in your opening attack, activate Power Attack to do a Free Intimidate, the Thug aspect extends this for a round so a min of 2 rounds they are intimidated which means your future attacks are all Sneak Attacks.

It means all your attacks should be 2d4+6(Str)+6(Power Attack)+4D6 (lvl 7 Sneak Attack).

Obviously you will lag behind Fighters etc. but you still feel capable of contributing, especially as beyond getting Sneak Attacks via Intimidate you are also giving the monsters -2 to Hit and Saves, and thanks to the Thugs other ability you also can cause Sickened, so you are a bit of a debuffer in combat in addition to holding your own.

It's not a perfect build for sure, just something I started thinking about yesterday and could serve as a good alternative to trying to find a way forward with a Fighter/Rogue mix

Liberty's Edge

Adventurers Armory I believe:

Potion of Negate Aroma (50gp): 1hr of scentlessness as long as you don't rub poop on yourself or get sprayed by a skunk. Fantastic little item for a bargain price of 50gp, also the kinds of items a kindly GM could slip in as found loot for low lvls with no cash

Liberty's Edge

Be a Paladin.
Kick some butt and while you are at it, after a combat that nearly sees you all dead because of the Bard's action/inaction, make it very clear that their behaviour is threatening the safety of the party and the mission at hand. They need to decide to get involved or get out, because if they continue along their current path their actions will be considered a threat to the safety of the party, such a threat will be dealt with. Permenantly.

Liberty's Edge

Take the Feat Antagonize and the Trait that makes Intimidate a class skill for you and a bonus +1 to it (this avoids needing too high a cha). The Antagonize Feat will allow you to do your tanky stuff without moving as you bully the enemy to come to you

Liberty's Edge

Porpentine has done a great Zen Archer Monk build.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz55e4?Zen-and-the-Art-of-Monk-Maintenance-A-Guid e-to

In summary, simply going up levels increases the Ranged aspect of the build so there is no need for your own Feats being used (basically you get given most Feats, then use your Monk bonus feats for things like Precise, Improved Precise, Point Blank etc)

That leaves you room for spending Feats like so:

Toughness, (Improved Initiative), Deadly Aim, Dodge, Defensive Combat Training, Vital Strike, Hammer the Gap, Dimensional Agility, Improved Vital Strike, Stunning Fist, Ability Focus Stunning Fist.

Obviously all these feats are optional (Except Deadly Aim) so you can pick them based on what you want to be - more defensive, 'all rounder', more aggressive.

Statwise you would be going with maxing Wisdom, ideally 14s in Str, Con, Dex.

---------------------------

In PFS I am actually playing a Quingong Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain. He is designed around tripping, has high Str and Dex but fairly low Wis. The build is ALOT of fun.

He has the Feat that adds Dex and Str for trips, he has vicious stomp so that on a successful trip he can make an Attack of Opportunity (good because I don't have the Int to get Greater Trip). He has Combat Reflexes so on a FoB I can trip multiple people and Stomp on them all. Add in the Flowing Monks ability to trip when someone attacks and that's another Stomp.

I cannot remember the Feats exactly but it's something like:

1) Fury's Fall (I think that is the name of Feat to add Str and Dex)
1b) Improved Trip
2) Vicious Stomp
3) Combat Reflexes

Now, I actually went Human instead of Dwarf because of no speed increase and I didn't want 20ft movement. I also took it because I shamelessly went with 7 Int so liked the extra skill, and of course Feat. Not sure what I took as my bonus feat as Human though (possibly Combat Maneovoure training for CMB to use lvl?).

For Traits I think I took the extra Initiative and the +1 To Hit with Attacks of Opportunity.

Liberty's Edge

Only thing I disagree with is Blistering Invective, simply because it's a spell. It's true it is better being a standard (thus allowing you to start a song from lvl 7) but spells are very precious to the Bard because they are so good, while Intimidate is nice, I couldn't justify using a spell to do it.

One thing Anetra is absolutely right about though is that Saving Finale IS the best first lvl Bard spell EVER. So make sure you have that chosen as a spell known!

Liberty's Edge

Take Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display to Intimidate opponents in battle. If a Rogue is commited enough to go down that line and get Shattering Defenses that opens up lots of Sneak Attack Opportunities.

Range is also an option, it will take awhile to get good at it though.

Int means you could take Combat Expertise and take the Trip line of Feats - then you could use a Whip which is a fun one to play...however, with low Str and Dex you may struggle to trip things even with the bnuses from the Feats.

I guess you could go down the Scimitar route and use Dancing Dervish Feat chain.

Liberty's Edge

Scimitar, Dervish Dance and a Buckler would work wouldn't it? You just need a free hand for Dervish Dance and a Buckler provides that whilst still being usable?

That essentially turns the Dex into Str so you do decent damage, though you cannot go down the TWF sword n board route.

Otherwise fighter is the obvious choice due to additional damage and feats like Weapon specialisation. They also have the feats to get the TWF shield style.

His Str should still be enough for Power Atk (13) because with a sword, shield, armour and equipment he may struggle for capacity otherwise.

Course, if he is at all flexible with the Shield demand, he could always be a Weapon Finesse 2h user - pretty cool concept using the Elven Curve Blade so that you still get good damage via power attack but also get to be the guy using finesse rather than the typical brute force.

I would also look at going Half Elf to essentially get +4 Will saves along with the Indomitable Will trait for another +1, then eventually use a Feat for Iron Will to get a total of +7 Will which is of course the fighters biggest weakness

Liberty's Edge

I have to say, reading the original post and later RD talking about how he tried to talk but no one seemed to take things to seriously...I don't actually see a problem.

Call me crazy, but that kind of group playstyle isn't uncommon in my group. My own brother plays a Bard, we have songs, buffs and saving spells, but his character is also very selfish - Heroism on himself, Mirror Image, Vanish when a big bad guy shows up - then reappears near the end when the GM tells us it's looking badly hurt and he gets the Kill! He refers to himself as the one man army.

The result is our group ridicule him, when the GM hits him we cheer and laugh, when he gets the killing blow on a monster we all roll our eyes and groan, we also grumble about no Heroism for any of us real frontliners - our Wizard has even cast grease on his weapon to stop stop him 'kill stealing' a monster. This may sound like there is some kind of tension in the party ranks, yet ask anyone who their favorite character on the table is and it's our Bard. Banter and mocking is just part of the way we do things.

If we had a member like RDs char, we'd also probably cheer when the enemy actually managed to hit him, we may even disrupt his safety buffs (if we were confident it wouldn't actually kill him) but if things went down we'd have his back, we'd still mock him in game and likely out of game to, but we wouldn't change him

Liberty's Edge

Depends on what you are playing and stats of course.

As a d8 monk in close combat, Toughness is very useful to boost the hp lvls. Porpentines Zen Archer Monk makes use of Toughness to boost the survivability for the class becaue it has enough Feats to indulge.

Doing PFS everyone tends to say 'oh, don't make a char with less than 14 Con else you will likely be dead' so a char with 12 Con and Toughness works.

In some cases it is as simple as looking at what you want to do with your feats and also looking at your stat array and deciding whether you have room for Toughness in your build and would the points saved on Con allow you to boost a primary stat?

For me personally, I would sooner take Iron Will/Lightning Reflexes as a Feat because Saves scare me more than Hp damage.

Liberty's Edge

Awesome, thanks again. Also a fair point on the free Feat. Furious will be worth it if GM decides I cannot full atk and Ride By that's for sure.

Liberty's Edge

2 lvls of Paladin for any high Cha class gives you your CHa boost to saves, also gives you a Smite Evil which while 2 Damage is not much, the extra To Hit from Cha and the AC can be nifty.
Also get Lay on Hands, albeit only 1D6 but you can do that 1+Cha Mod tmes a Day as swift aciton on yourself, nifty top up in fight, or used to instantly stabilise a downed char, or with Oath of Vengeance just trade for more Smites.
Also Detect Evil.

Liberty's Edge

Favoured Enemy Human does not require Evil. It does not require you to hate them either. It simply means you have expertise at killing them. Sure, that could be because you are a psychotic murdering maniac. or it could be because you are fully aware of your own weaknesses.
It could also be because you have killed many Humans - as a Lawman or a Bounty Hunter.

Ther is no shortage of Evil humans in the world, it is not unreasonable that Good people are trained to hunt and kill/apprehend them

Liberty's Edge

Thanks for the help!
My understanding is that mounted skirmisher allows you to make full attacks despite the pet moving more than 5ft. So for point 2 I believe I would get a full attack round in, however the next question for that is:

a) If I full attack via the Mounted Skirmisher Feat, can the pet continue finishing its movement - making use of the Ride By Attack Feat? I am guessing not but wanted to check.

For point 3 I realise Pounce is part of a Charge so the Charge rules woul apply to my attack.

So, with point 3, If I had mounted Skirmisher and the mount had pounce, it could move in and full attack and so could I - however, with the Lance being a Reach weapon, unless my pet had reach too, only I would get to use the full attack because we stop 10ft away, but with a normal weapon, essentially we could both get full attacks in with my first counting as a charge.

I think that's most things cleared up.
Now I have a new question:

WIth Ride By Attack, I hit the mob 10ft away and can continue moving. So if my charge allows me to continue moving past the mob within 5ft can my pet then get an attack? If so, I assume we stop where he attacks...however, if the pet were to have the Spring Attack Feat chain I assume I could hit on impact, the mount gets its attack after moving a square then it continues its movement?
---------------

As for my char, I will definitely get Spirited Charge, but that Feat chain may be all I go with so that I can get Feats for when I am not mounted. Power Attack is obviously a winner for all situations. I am unsure about Furious Focus as its benefit is only for the first attack which has a high Hit anyway.

Liberty's Edge

Hi all,
I am looking to build a Cavalier which will be making use of mounted combat, but having never done mounted combat before I am unfamiliar with the rules so wanted to get things confirmed if posible.

1) If I charge on my mount for Double/Triple Damage, can my pet also make a charge attack? If he does make an attack I assume I cannot make use of Ride By Attack? If my mount had Spring Attack would he then beable to move again?

2) If I had mounted Skirmish and the mount charged in, would I get to make a full attack and would my first attack count as a charge attack (as my pet was charging)

3) If I were riding a Player as my mount and they had pounce which allows them to move in and full attack, could my action still be a charge as we moved more than 10 feet and technically I was declaring a charge? If so, I assume that if I had Mounted Skirmish, I could not full attack with first attack being a charge as my mount though moved, did not charge

My plan is to go with a Halfling on a Wolf, I am debating whether or not to lose Tactician and go with Gendarme. I know people are big fans of the Tactician but I am not so convinced with it. THough, if I did go with Tactician, my mount benefits from the Feats also? So if I were to get him the actual Feats he and I could benefit from them all the time?

Currently the plan is to go with Order of the Sword for extra Will save and also the bonus to mounted combat.

I don't want to be a one trick pony and intend to have some use without a mount, but if I do not have Teamwork Feats, beyond Power Attack is there anything people would suggest?

Finally, I checked out the Beast Rider Archtype and it appears that if I were HUman I could get a Lion mount at 4 despite not yet being able to ride it...at the same time the Archtype states you cannot have a mount you cannot ride. Is this just a mess up or is there something I am missing that lets a Human ride a Lion at 4.

Thanks for any help.

Liberty's Edge

Pretty sure there is feat that allows both Dex and Str to be used for tripping, so high in both stats is good. (I think Robby mentioned it above -Fury's Fall)
I have a Tripping Monk in PFS, I went with Flowing, Stalwart Quingong Monk I think. You become immune to being knocked over when in one place, AC bonuses, immediate trip action X times per day. It's pretty solid.

He also has the ability to make an AoO against an opponent who falls (it's a feat that lets you stomp after tripping) with high Dex and COmbat Reflexes it's good.

I believe he has also gone with Dragon Style so that he can pack a reasonable punch too for when rippingisn't viable.

Essentially you move, trip, stomp for damage on your turn. On their turn another mob attacks, you redirect trip, stomp. If I remember rightly, when the mob gets up you can AoO to rip again (I think, been awhile since I played him). If a mob cannot be tripped you just Flurry with Dragon Style which, with 18 Str hits decently

Liberty's Edge

We don't really do XP as such, like many, the group tend to level together.

When a player cannot make it, he either gets played by others (if it's a small group and he is needed) or in a larger group he just misses out on the adventure. Either way he still gets the xp - there is no benefit of having a char be behind everyone else, ultimately the missing player gets a side story added - he had an errand to run for his Church, along the journey someone was found hurt and he escorted etc. just a reason why he was not there and he earned xp his own way.

Sometimes that players abscence even gets weaved into the overall story - later on that random stranger or Church errand has a follow up side quest which gets added in.

Ultimately the player missed out on a good sessions and that is enough of a penalty as far as we are concerned, they feel cheated of missing out of the fun when they find out what happened, we wouldn't then kick them in the face by penalising xp

Liberty's Edge

To be honest, the minute the palyers say I don't care if my char dies, the alarm bells ring so I can see your concerns. I am all for humour and jokes as mentioned before, but regardless of an amusing name for the Char, we all take it very seriously in terms of having an invested interestin them and keeping them alive - we become very attached to our chars regardless of the humourous names, possibly because of it as it endears us to them - they are heroes, powerful adventurers who save the world and the silly name just helps remind us they are not perfect :)

I am lucky that the players I game with are some of the best Roleplayers I have seen and the DM is the best I have ever played with, as a result silliness is never a problem because it never gets out of hand as when the tone of the campaign changes we knuckle down.

It sounds like you have a very different set of players and need to slowly push them towards being more serious and better players which likely means ensuring a fine balance between simple and fun with serious and plot heavy in the hopes that eventually they will be wanting a more consistently deep game

Liberty's Edge

Hmm, i have no issue with the silly names but then maybe I game differently to others. Our group are all for serious campaigns and our DM is amazing, but we like our humour - we are all friends outside the game and so just like a serious conversation in real life can end up with some puns and jokes slipped in, so do our RP sessions.

Humour does not need to take away from the game, it should enhance it.

In a PFS game I play a monk with 7 Int and 7 Cha and while his name is normal, he is lovingly based on Jason Statham, so throughout scenarios, when it fits I will make reference to his movies. (e.g. A quest requires us to take a package to someone, no surprise that I reference being the best Transporter there is). It's silly but it brings us amusement and thee is room for humour in to be slipped in all games - even Cthulu.

Liberty's Edge

No - you want music when a Bard you best start singing :)

On our table the Bard sings (badly) or makes up short poems or silly stories about his groupmates. It's a lot of fun for everyone on the table to the point that any games we do where we have no Bard and we miss him - while playing music may kind of be fitting, it's a dull substitute to performing yourself.

Bard is probably the most fun character to RP at a table. Admittedly everyone has their own playstyles and perhaps some may not like this one, but certainly our houserules are 'you don't perform, then you don't use your abilities' (the performance can be one line from a song, a 5s rhyme etc. no one expects War and Peace or a full Opera)

Liberty's Edge

Just a small note that I think you underestimate the poor Half Orc for the Castigator Paladin. As a 2h Paladin you are far less dependant on Feats than other builds, therefore you can afford to lose out on the bonus Feat.

In return, you get:
Dark vision
Intimidate bonus (handy if you are RPing the Vindicator)
Replace Ferocity with a Tatoo (+1 to all saves on top of your Cha bonus and high natural saves...yes please)
Trait to give you tusks (though admittedly you can technically do that with Human and the adopted trait)

Having tusks gives you the best of both worlds - all those talking about the pro's and cons of TWF...well, with tusks you now have that extra attack, it has no impact on your to hit with your primary attack and it requires no feats.

True, it's at -5 To Hit, but at lvl 1 that's already +0 to hit (18 Str, 1 BAB) you won't be hitting all that often initially, but you have nothing to lose for trying, and when you take into account Smiting and the bonus to hit it grants, you are now able to do some decent damage

Liberty's Edge

Unless against lots of stupid mobs, you would get one round of AoO fun per encounter with panther and then the enemy would be smart enough to realise attacking you is bad.

The lack of Int and Cha does take away alot of my options for out of combat use - though I will still be happily trying it for roleplay and fun. It's not a big deal as I have another PFS who has high Cha and does a lot of out of combat stuff, this char is just a much more basic char to mess around with - it's only played with the same group of friends so I will have plenty of fun even if not actively involved

Liberty's Edge

Thanks Mike,
The reason for higher Dex is simply because I need more attacks of opportunity - one used up after trip, one used for them getting up, I can trip more than once a round if full attacking, also by lvl 4 anyone within my threat area that attacks can get tripped which means another AoO.

Not a fan of Panther Style becasue after one combat the GM knows not to waste his time making AoOs against you - making the feat chain wasted.

If I don't go with the trip build then Flowing monk entirely becomes pretty pointless so I would have to change that up (though I still am open to ideas so by all means offer alternatives)

The Crane style means better AC and avoiding one attack a round, it is real nice, but at -2 to Hit until lvl 9 it's a harsh penalty that I will give a miss.

Dragon Style gives extra damage which means something more to do against monsters that I cannot trip (though given the number casters around I would expect enlarge will minimise non tripping issues based on size)

Liberty's Edge

Ooh, good call. Didn't even know of that Feat.
Don't need Dodge (aside from for the AC) if I am going Dragon Style either

Liberty's Edge

Ok, I think I have come up with a plan (thanks all for your ideas)
Feel free to offer suggestions, improvements or even still alternative builds.

Human Quingong Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain:

Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 13
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Cha: 7

Skills:
Acrobatics
Perception

Trait:
Bullied (+1 Trip)
TBD

Feats:
lvl 1: Combat Reflexes
1 Human Bonus: Vicious Stomp
1 Monk Bonus: Improved Trip
3: Dodge
5: Crane Style/Dragon Style
6: Improved Reposition
7: Crane Wing/Dragon Ferocity

Feats missing: Power Attack and Weapon Focus. Worth dropping anything for these or just get them at higher lvl?

This build should be able to control well but also deal reasonable damage (or good if I go Dragon style) handy for the attacks of opportunity or mobs I cannot trip

lvl 5 AC should be:
10+3(Dex)+2(Wis)+1(Sacred Mountain)+1(Monk)+1(Dodge)=18
With the potential of +2(Sacred Mountain) and up to +2 (Flowing) = up to 22 AC. This can go to 26 with Mage Armour or 29 with Crane Style

saves:
Fort: +6
Reflex: +8
Will: +7

For Fighting I have To Hit:
FoB: +7/+7 (or +5/+5 if using Crane Style)
Trip +10 (or +8 using Crane style)

Damage is 1d8+4/1d8+4 (or 1d8+8/1d8+6 if Dragon Style)

This is obviously without stat increase or magic item (except Mage Armour wand).

While I like the Crane style for the extra defense, I am concerned that the defensive style will be dropping my hit too low, meanwhile Dragon Style will up my damage nicely so I think it may be an extra option. Obviously lower To Hit is ok if monster is prone, but I need to succeed that first.

At lvl 7 I can finally replace a Monk ability with a Quingong ability, I was thinking of going with Barksin for this.
------

The main strategy is simple:
FoB with trip, AoO Vicious Stomp on monster (if lucky monster may be flatfooted too because of Unbalancing Counter). Second Attack either hit the prone monster or if another is near by, try Trip and repeat what I did with first attack.

When not on my turn, if monster attacks me or ally (so long I threaten monster) I trip, Vicious Stomp (hopefully monster is flatfooted and sickened), if monster tries to get up again I get another AoO, can either Trip again or just straight hit it

Liberty's Edge

Great info, interesting read, much more to think about now. I like the vicious stomp idea

Liberty's Edge

So 1-5 I would be doing no damage but after that things would be better.

Hmm, so my choices look to be:
Full offense with Weapon Adept (by lvl 6 I should be doing 1d8+10/1d8+8 unarmed)

Or, full defensive with the Flowing monk I mentioned. Or a mix of both by changing the Dex with Str and changing Crane to Dragon (so lose 5AC, gain 1 To Hit and gain +6/+4 damage). Or even keep Crane but still swap stats to lose 2 AC and gain +4/+4 damage) I could then work on getting good enchants on weapon...is there a monk weapon with trip?

Or I could go with Sohei which looks to be another high offensive char, however is weak until lvl 6 but on the brightside requires no Str.

And of course I need to get home and check the two links provided.

Anyone have any other ideas/builds they want to share?

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