Asphere's page

Oh also an online mapmaker with all of the new pieces! Check it out here:

Dwarven Forge Mapmaker

This kickstarter has become incredibly awesome. The stretch goal rewards now include extra basic pieces to help make a huge dungeon, curved walls, diagonal walls, narrow doors, demon doors, pillars, and coming soon walls with windows and dungeon dressing such as barrels and treasure piles! Jump on the bandwagon while you still can!

Dwarven Forge Kickstarter

Check out the new stretch goals! Curved walls and floors! With all of these free pieces it doesn't make any sense to get in on this one:

Dwarven Forge's Game Tiles Kickstarter

Well with the stretch goals increasing the number of pieces maybe the shipping would be more bearable? I feel you though.

For me, Hirst Arts provides me with the ability to create custom pieces to use in tandem with my DF stuff. The idea of casting everything needed for a massive multi-game dungeon and then putting it all together seems so tedious and boring. Making custom pieces takes way less time and is a lot of fun. I just can't spend the time making full dungeons with Hirst Arts due to family and work.

I am pledging for 5 painted sets with the current stretch goals nets me almost 7 full painted sets. I will never need any more than that.

This kickstarter allows me to bulk up on room space for a super cheap price (I am in the states so I don't have to consider shipping). I can't wait to get the new Hirst Inn molds though. I am going to order them in May and go nuts. I think I will use them to build some static buildings (I have some roof molds) like a lumber mill, alchemical shop, magic shop, and maybe the inn he has shown.

Asphere wrote:

Mazra wrote:

I agree Aberzombie you do need a lot of this stuff to make it work right. I have several sets and it is often not enough. But with this KS, I may have enough to be very functional going forward. So if you already have some of this stuff this is a great opportunity to expand. And truthfully, even if you don't have any, this KS is a great opportunity to get started with the best terrain options available in the marketplace.

Yeah but if you go in for 5 sets there is a possibility that you will wind up with 10 sets after the stretch goals are met.

Who said anything about 5 sets? I am in at the base level ($120) where stretch goals are applicable. This will be plenty with what I already own. And this level would be a great place to start for someone who doesn't have Dwarven Forge or deep pockets.

Yeah if you already have some sets this is a great way to bulk them up. I have two rooms & passage sets, 1 wicked additions 1&2 sets, and the advanced builder set. I am always having problems adding large rooms though (plenty of passages). I pledged for 5 sets so I can add huge rooms and fill in a lot of gaps on the table with secret areas and what not. This kickstarter rocks!

@Asphere

I just did my first mega dungeon and I used my ruins set for the first time. As I think you're aware I've only been collecting DF for 18 months. I can't wait for my group to get to that part of my dungeon. I have seven secret pit traps set up in that large room. It's really cool to put that removable 1" square over the tile and, walla you have a pit trap, that even I have trouble seeing, and I know where the floor traps are!

That is awesome. That happened to me too. I forgot which tile came from the ruins set and had to force my players to avert their eyes while I went around trying to lift each tile up to check.

I agree Aberzombie you do need a lot of this stuff to make it work right. I have several sets and it is often not enough. But with this KS, I may have enough to be very functional going forward. So if you already have some of this stuff this is a great opportunity to expand. And truthfully, even if you don't have any, this KS is a great opportunity to get started with the best terrain options available in the marketplace.

Yeah but if you go in for 5 sets there is a possibility that you will wind up with 10 sets after the stretch goals are met. I am in for 3 right now and already with the stretch goals I am getting an extra set and then some. I may up it to 5 because with what I already have and with stretch goals I could build a massive dungeon.

This is what I tell my wife when I go to spend money like this: If I had a different hobby I would probably spend way more. If I restored cars think about what that would cost. Playing golf get expensive super fast. Hiking can get really really expensive. Drinking fine Scotches would be a hobby that would dwarf my dwarven forge addiction (pun intended). So I made her choose: Cheap whiskey + dwarven forge or expensive scotch.

Remember you can do more than just make dungeons. You can make buildings too! Check out my recent blog update for some examples (I made some roofs from Hirst Molds, hobby sticks, or just grass flock). Just a warning - this is from a ROTRL module so don't look if you are worried about spoilers.

Edit: Here is a link to some DF roofs made with hirst arts molds over at the DF forum. This is where I got the idea.

Aberzombie wrote:

Damn! I am sorely tempted.

Now would be the time to do it. With the stretch goals, you'll get a lot for your money. I bought my first two sets only a month ago (rooms and room and passage) and I love them. I wanted another room set so this Kickstarter is perfect. The three sets I'll be getting with the stretch goal freebies plus what I have now will be more than enough to cover my regular gaming (kitchen) table. However, I don't know if I can wait until October without ordering another set or two of something. Most of sets with the curvy pieces are out of stock so I may have to settle for the ruins and narrow passages.

The ruins set is one of my favorite sets. In the future I will buy two more for sure. It really adds character to the dungeon to have the crumbled wall here and there.

I really want the narrow passage set. I finish my PhD this year and after 5 years of living super poor I told my wife that she didn't have to worry about me buying a crazy car to celebrate but as soon as Dwarven Forge restocks I am going nuts.

I was hoping for 3 annis hags in this set :(

My wife plays in my games but I definitely do not show her favoritism. Just ask her dwarf fighter and gnome wizard which are now spending their time as worm food.

I will play 4E but I don't like to run it. I like my tabletop rpgs messy and complicated. I once read something about why great works of literature seem to arise within certain languages and not so much others. The claim was that messy languages that were made up of several other languages are fairly inefficient and nonsensical at times. It was claimed that these messy languages produce the great works of literature due to all of the absurd ways one could express themselves within the language. That is probably baloney - I think it probably has to do more with conquest but regardless I like to evoke that analogy to explain why I like complicated rpgs because it sounds neat. I think that is why Pathfinder and D&D 3.5 create characters that do not feel as homogenous as 4E.

I don't care about the 4E marketing campaign. I thought the game master guide for 4E was well done. I wasn't offended by 4E. I think 4E is a great game. I just liked Pathfinder better.

bugleyman wrote:

Hmmm....still not seeing it. Of all the characters, I definitely identify with Sheldon the most, a fact which I find more flattering than insulting -- he is a brilliant man. Penny, the subject of Leonard's ill-advised (but plausible) obsession, is an uninteresting and inconsequential nitwit.

Is Sheldon really THAT brilliant, though? Almost all examples of his "brilliance" are informed attribute...his actual career and accomplishments don't seem to be any more impressive than that of the others. Maybe the others just long ago accepted that its easier to deal with him if they let him think he's so much smarter than they are.

Well a theory position at a prestigious university is harder to get than an experimental position. They tend to be more selective due to how hard it is to get funding for theoretical projects. You see top notch theorists end up at mid to low level universities all of the time. That is not to say that theorists are smarter than experimentalists. Sheldon seems to have done something early on to get tenure I think (though I haven't seen much beyond the first season). Do they all have tenure? I think it would be funny to have a few episodes on what they would do to get tenured or funding. People get crazy at my work when those two things rear their ugly heads.

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

I just got told about this thread. I love the show, I'm surprised that people are actually offended by it, I'm okay with different people liking/disliking different things, and everybody is stupid in sit-coms, even the smart ones!

Make that "Everybody is stupid once in a while." The matter is how the show treats its characters while they do stupid things.

Quote:

What I find strange is that people keep saying 'laugh track' when it's not a secret that the show is recorded before a live studio audience....!

I don't think that studio audiences find everything happening on set consistently funny. The show relies on laughs to be successful (so that everyone knows when they are supposed to laugh), therefore they add a laugh track in post production.

If they didn't add the laugh track there would be odd pauses in the dialogue when the audience does laugh. Hundreds of shows have done this - but this show is singled out for it.

I bought them from this guy: Shifting Lands

His name is Gerard. You will have to email him and he will eventually get back to you. After he makes the boats he will give you a paypal email address and after you send payment he will ship the boats.

Thanks! It was a lot of fun.

Hee hee! More dead dogs!

Just picture Marley being this little guy and then even a goblin could relate.

Those of us who have had to say goodbye to our best buds can all relate to this one: Marley & Me

1 person marked this as a favorite.

My group has finished Hook Mountain Massacre. I posted some images from my set-up over at the Dwarven Forge forums. Warning: Spoilers may be abound.

Hook Mountain Massacre Finale

If money is not an issue check out molds at Hirst Arts. If you have a skill saw or something you can glue the tiles down to hardboard. Also, you can buy your own silicone molding material to make molds of Hirst Arts projects that you will need multiples of (floors, walls, etc...).

If you go the Hirst Arts route, I recommend the Field stone, Cavern, and Gothic lines (in that order). If you want more info on which particular molds I think are best just let me know. Check out their forums for tips.

I think Wes Anderson should direct the new Star Wars movies.

@Velcro - that figure is awesome. I want it.

Ah man I never even saw the Dwarven Adventurers KS. Those look fantastic. I will have to jump in on the Gnomish Adventurers bandwagon. Thanks for the heads up!

All those years of not eating the play-doh finally paid off. My players will soon stumble upon this monster and so I decided to whip something up fast with some air dry clay and a couple of washers. I would love to see a pro make something along these lines. It was fun to make.

Black Magga Miniature

It looks like in the painted picture they based with an off white that was slightly blue and then used a sponge or stiff brush to speckle on some of the blue like you do when you make something look like marble.

When I started this was extremely useful:

A Beginning Mini Painter's Shopping List

I prime miniatures with a cheap black spray paint from Wal-Mart. It cost $.89. I seal them with three coats of spray matte sealer by Krylon (also cheap). I used testor's dull coat in the past but to be honest I couldn't really see a difference. I mainly use Reaper paints but I have a few from Coat'd Arms and Citadel. They are much thinner than the craft acrylic paints and they seem to work better for miniatures.

Faces are the hard part. I bought a lot of mage knight miniatures and redid their faces for practice.

Brushes matter. I would invest in Kolinsky Sable brushes. Just take care of them and they will last. You can get a couple online for a good price.

Thanks for all of the suggestions! The Reaper one looks perfect for what I will be using it for.

Hi,

I am looking for a snake miniature that takes up a large sized base (2" x 2"). There are plenty of snake minis out there but they seem to be all medium sized creatures.

Thanks in advance!

Funky Badger wrote:

Oladon wrote:

<sarcasm>Oh, excellent! In that case, I'll just full attack every round with my rogue, and then make a non-action Stealth check at the end of my turn! I'll only get one sneak attack per turn, but that's okay because I still get multiple regular attacks.</sarcasm>

Oh noes. A rogue doing something powerful. The sky is falling.

Except rogues aren't the only ones with stealth. You would see it on ninjas and Maguses too, for instance. And fighters and alchemists.

Regular stealth will not let you do this because you are being observed. Unless the ninja, Magus, fighter, or alchemist dipped into Shadowdancer to get HiPS they wouldn't be able to do it.

Hide in plain site means you can hide in...plain site. It says you can hide while being observed as long as you are 10' away from a dim square. It negates the need for concealment. That is the point of it. You are literally fading into shadows. Your definition of HiPS isn't any different than a plain old stealth check if you still need something to hide behind (to become unobserved). Also, shadowdancers are supernatural. After all they can summon an undead shade to do their bidding.

The question here is whether or not you can stealth on a 5' step. Is the Shadowdancer considered to be "attacking" even after the attacks have been resolved and the Shadowdancer is taking her 5' step? Some say yes and some say no. If it is no, then the Shadowdancer can stealth during a 5' step after a full round action because stealth is a non-action that is usually performed as part of a movement. If the answer is yes the shadowdancer is "attacking" after the actual attacks have been resolved then the shadowdancer cannot stealth during their 5' step.

Almost everyone agrees that a Shadowdancer can make a standard attack, and then take a 5' step and stealth. Some are calling the 5'step and stealth a "move action" and some say it isn't.

This looks like another case of people confusing the Move action with a Move Action and with Moving to me!

The opening post here says...

Quote:

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Kinda curious where that was originally printed, but if that's true, we're in the same boat as drawing a weapon. Using stealth to hide yourself is a Move Action, in the "each turn you may use one swift, standard, and move action" sense. However, if you are already using your Move Action to Move (as in, start on this space here, end up on that space over there).

Taking a 5' step is not "moving" in this context, nor is it officially an action. It is just its own crazy weird nebulous thing you can do on your turn if you are otherwise not moving, that happens to leave you on an adjacent space.

You can't draw a weapon for free while taking a 5' step, you can't hide in a shadowy area either.

You can't draw a weapon for free while taking a 5' step because the rules specifically say that drawing a weapon is a move action and that if you have a BAB of +1 or higher you can combine it with movement to form a move action.

The rules for stealth are different. The rule quoted above is from the CRB pg 107. The rule does not require a move action to use. Nor does it require movement at all. It says it is usually a non-action but you can use it as a part of movement. It says "movement" instead of "move action". Regardless, you do not have to move to do a stealth check, nor do the rules say that using a stealth check to hide is a move action.

What if you simply full round attack from stealth, 5' step to a different square that is in melee range around the boss, made a stealth check so that in the next round unless he moves you are able to rinse and repeat?

I see what you mean. How would you handle the tactic raised in my OP then if you wanted to stay as close to the rules as possible?

Edit: Never mind. I see in a previous post that you would allow it.

<sarcasm>Oh, excellent! In that case, I'll just full attack every round with my rogue, and then make a non-action Stealth check at the end of my turn! I'll only get one sneak attack per turn, but that's okay because I still get multiple regular attacks.</sarcasm>

1 sneak attack with multiple attacks is better than none. If the enemy's back is in a corner and he cannot be flanked you get zero sneak attacks if you aren't attacking from stealth.

Asphere wrote:

It doesn't say that you can only stealth during movement or as a part of another action.

Agreed. My question is what type of action is it to stealth if you are not doing is as part of movement? I would rule it is a move action.

That is fair. I am teetering on making the same rule.

Clearly a creature can be dropped in the middle of another's turn. Simply look at the feats Cleaving Finish, etc. How would they function in your house rules? Likewise a PC hitting a trap or other obstacle is effected by them immediately- not at the end of their turn. There is no 'resolution' stage of a PC's turn.

That isn't what happened in my example though. I was saying that the 5 foot step phase of the full-round attack isn't treated as a sequential event because Bob is attacking during the full-round. If that is true, then even during Bob's 5-foot step he is considered "attacking" and therefore cannot use a stealth check.

This view was countered with an example of Bob hitting John who has fire shield. How would this be resolved for example if Bob took a full-round action to hit John and on the second attack incurred enough damage to be unconscious and then took a 5-foot step? If he passes out prior to taking the 5 foot step then that implies that the 5 foot step is a sequential event and a full-round action doesn't really use a"full-round" as the rules imply because Bob wouldn't be attacking. If this is true then Bob isn't considered to be "attacking" and he can make a stealth check during a 5 foot step.

I didn't mean to imply that the phases of a full-round attack were simultaneous. Re-reading my post looks like that's what I meant - my apologies. I meant to imply that a 5-foot step during a full round action could be considered simultaneous. If it isn't than I am back to square one with allowing a stealth check during a 5 foot step during a full round attack because Bob is no longer "attacking".

Where does it say that you have to make your stealth check as part of another action. All I see is

Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action.

It doesn't say that you can only stealth during movement or as a part of another action.

Since the action mentions movement, i think they mean it to be part of a move action. The 5 foot step wouldn't work.

Well it doesn't require any type of movement at all. The rule states that a stealth check is usually a non-action but is usually done as part of a movement. It doesn't say it has to be done as part of a movement.

As to simultaneous claims: they are incorrect. These are sequential occurrences. A character dropping from say fireshield damage does not get to 5' step before falling unconscious. Right? Why not? If the attack and 5' step were simultaneous they would be allowed to do so.

If this last disturbs you, then the whole creature closing to a character then the character being able to full attack even though the prior round the creature was not fully there... would be untenable to you as well. That's not how the game works, and really there's not a nice fix in the combat system to allow for it.

Yes lets talk about this because so far this has been the only thing that has convinced me that you cannot stealth after making a full-round attack.

Your first example: Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. A character full-round attacks someone that has fire shield damage, takes 1d6+1 damage, which drops his hp to below zero causing him to fall unconscious. Is this correct? I thought that damage was resolved at the end of the attackers turn. I would have it play out like so: Bob makes a full-round attack against John (who has fire shield) and then 5-foot steps. The fire shield damage lowers Bob's hp to -1 and Bob falls unconscious. In my head this plays out because Bob attacks is set aflame takes a 5 foot step and then drops. People really do this when on fire so it doesn't bother me that much.

As to your second example I am not sure I understand. Everything that happens during Bob's TURN was simultaneous. Everything that happens during a round is sequential but just barely (6 seconds). Bob would see the goblin moving toward him and begin his full-attack. This is just how I interpret things...I could be wrong though. (this is why I really like hackmaster 5e combat).

So I think I have been convinced that with HiPS:

1. A full-round attack + 5-foot step + stealth is not possible. The only reason is due to the fact that everything that occurs during a full-round attack is interpreted as happening simultaneously - not one after the other. For example, a full round attack, 5 foot step, and yelling at a comrade are all happening at the same time. If that is true, making a stealth check during your 5 foot step violates the rule: "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging".

2. A standard attack + 5 foot step (or move action for that matter) + stealth is possible because your attack has ended prior to the movement and you are no longer "attacking" and are not breaking the rule from #1. I suppose this gives the rogue/shadowdancer a nice defensive ability to get out of melee if he is heavily injured but still allows him an attack - it is certainly better than having to make a full-round action to withdrawal.

It would be cool if there were a feat to make 1 possible.

Thanks for the insight everyone!

Cheers!

From your other thread, I know that the real question is, "If I have Hide in Plain Site, can I attack someone, then remain within 5' and use stealth to hide from them during the same round?" I read the entirety of both threads and studied the rules for Stealth & Hide in Plain Sight. The best RAW answer I can come up with is, "No, you can't do that."

My reasoning:

• Stealth explicitly states that it may not be used while attacking.
  "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking. . ."

• Pathfinder has a rule that governs attacking from stealth and remaining hidden. They call it "sniping" and it may only be used with ranged combat.
  "If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location."

• If you could attack/hide/attack in melee, one of three situations would exist:
  1. There would be a rule or rules covering it.
  2. The sniping rule wouldn't exist as an exception to the statement "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking."
  3. The sniping rule would cover it.

I always understood the sniping rule as an exception to regular stealth because the attacker is ranged and not melee. Since once the ranged attacker fires and gives away his position he is effectively "observed" because his position is known. So a regular joe could make a stealth check at penalty even though the enemy knows where he is. HiPS negates this because the attacker should be able to hide while being observed as long as there is dim light within 10'. But this is really an aside to the topic I was exploring I guess - although I am still getting good insight from you guys so that is all that matters!

Between your two posts and the way you keep changing the parameters of the question, I am getting confused. But I am going to try to break it all down and explain it as best I can.

I have pretty much been asking two separate questions in both threads. I even presented them as a numerated list in one of my posts. In case it wasn't clear: Can you

1. Full round action and 5 foot stealth
2. Standard action move stealth

The 5-foot step This is a non action. It is listed as such under table 8-2 Actions in combat in the Core Rulebook. "Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow."

Okay.

My interpretation, and the only one I have ever seen applied since 3.0, is that a 5-foot step is not a movement and nothing can be added to it as such. Your best example is drawing a weapon as this follows the same economy of actions as you are trying to pull off with stealth. (Add an extra action to a movement).

This is where things get fuzzy for me. Drawing a weapon is a clearly defined action. It is listed on table 8-2 as a move action. A stealth check is not assigned an action type. On page 107 of the CRB it says that Stealth is usually not an action and that it is normally made as part of a movement. It doesn't require it to be made as part of a movement. The reason it is usually made as part of a movement is because the stealther is attempting to break line of sight so that he can meet the criteria that stealth requires. You keep using the phrase "add an extra action to a movement" but this isn't what is happening.

The whole point is that it takes time to move and there are a few, distinct actions that the game allows you to do during this time. There is not enough time in a no action action to accomplish these tasks. The 5-foot step is a free bonus, you cannot add a free bonus to the free bonus.

Again movement is not required to attempt a stealth check.

Hide in Plain Sight This skill only does one thing. It only gives you another trigger as to when you can hide. Normally you need cover, concealment or a distraction. Now you can also use Dim Light, or 10' from it, as a new trigger. It has nothing at all to do with movement and stealth. It has nothing to do with giving your character more actions.

This depends on Stealth being a type of action. It is not defined as such as far as I can tell. If it is not an action, and it does not require a move action or even movement and the rogue has dipped into SD to get HiPs, what rule doesn't allow the rogue to stealth in plain site as long as he is 10' away from a dim light square after making a full-round action? You are aloud to take a 5-foot step, free action, and a swift action as part of a full-round action so why not a stealth check?

Pass or Fail Ratios These have nothing to do with how the rules work. The necromancer in your example is of no consequence.

The necromancer was simply given as an example as to why this tactic wouldn't make the rogue invincible. Since the necromancer has a perception of +24 and our level 8 rogue had a stealth of + 21 (he has some goodies on) he has a high chance of being detected and not receiving his sneak attack bonus or catching the enemy flat footed.

Attacking and Stealth This is the same if you have HiPS or not. You cannot attack and hide at the same time. Basically all this means is that you need a trigger to perform the hide. Again, it could be a distraction, cover, concealment or with HiPS it can be Dim Light.

I wasn't aware that I was proposing that the rogue/SD attack and stealth at the same time. The stealth happens after the attack. Now this is the best argument I have seen so far. I have always thought that rule meant that you blow your cover when you attack, however, if a full round attack + 5 foot step means that you are simultaneously attacking and taking a 5 foot step then I see your point about not being able to do a stealth check. Everything done during a full-round attack (5-foot step, swift action, free action, etc..) happens simultaneously.

Also, if you full attack from stealth, only the first attack gets the benefit of being from stealth. The following attacks do not get sneak attack. (Search for invisibility to see examples abound).

That makes sense. Can anyone direct me to this in the CRB? I can't seem to find this.

Change in Parameters As originally presented, you asked if you could full attack, 5-foot step and hide. That answer is no. The full attack means you cannot make a move action or move equivalent action in the same round. That move action or move equivalent action is required to stealth. As stated, HiPS doesn't change this, it just gives you another trigger.

Stealth does not require a movement or a move action. It is usually done as part of a movement but it is not required.

I like the idea too. It makes combat fun for me and the player. I am forced to use more utility spells if I am playing a caster to diminish the effectiveness of hide in plain site or as a melee or ranged attacker I would have to ready an action (like grapple) if I knew an attack was imminent (because the rogue/shadowdancer already got me a few times) and incapacitate the sneaky bugger.

I dunno what RAW is TBH. or rather how the RAW is interpreted.

If I were to rule on this it would depend.

Are you standing in the middle of a hallway someone spots you and you need to HiPS.

I dont think movement is required, if the shadow is there. You'd like want to move later however. As it would be obvious to attack that square. but not required.

But it seems like you are trying to attack, re-stealth, and attack again (for the purposes of getting sneak attack yes?)

there are easier ways to do this.

But.

Yes I think you would have to move, and yes I think you would have to move more than 5 feet.
You are in combat with someone and has such they are extra wary, and simply being unseen for a moment in an adjacent square isn't going to help you here.

For example, You SA. HiPS while moving 5 feet. Expecting another SA?
What keeps this fellow from 5 foot stepping? OR moving completely?
Depending on the circumstances there could be AoO's involved.

But to expect just to rotate around a stationary enemy while you SA, Hips, SA and using 5 foot steps?

I wouldn't let that pony keep tricking.

Now, can you HiPS in a manner as to disengage from the target to move farther and avoid an AoO...maybe.

I think if you combined, HiPS movement and feint, you could keep this tactic going, but the rolls wouldnt always give you what you want.

Success would also depend on the enemy. So it might work in one fight/situation and not another.

Yeah the verisimilitude would be a bit silly if the shadowdancer could keep it up indefinitely. However, the rolling element helps to alleviate this - especially with an enemy with high perception. I don't think the Shadowdancer will succeed every time. If they go up against a Stone Giant Necomancer 7 and they are level 8 it would really come down to pure dice rolls.

I've always interpreted sneak attack to mean that they were able to sneak an attack past their defences because of skill - not that the defender wasn't ready for an attack. So a shadowdancer will sneak some attacks past their defences (succeeding on stealth checks) and will be parried or dodge (failing on stealth checks).

The rules for HiPS are pretty clear. You do not have to find concealment to stealth as long as there is dim light nearby. If there are shadows to hide in within 10 feet of the shadowdancer, she can effectively just disappear.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

I assume that there is a supernatural component to this - after all, later a shadowdancer can summon undead shades to do her bidding.

That's what I thought. Thanks everyone!

So not to detract from the thread lets give the rogue fast stealth. Now what?

You Stealth during a move, not after.

** spoiler omitted **

So if you stealth while making a move action and then you fail your stealth check your speed is still halved during that move action?

Also, I haven't been convinced yet that I am making weird rules up.

EDIT: Also, this sort of ambush tactic sounds really fun. Cinematically it plays out in my head as every time the enemy turns around to see what hit him the rogue has pivoted around him very fast and attacked again.

Except that having your speed reduced to half does mean that you can't take a 5-foot step; see difficult terrain.

But doesn't that only apply to a character that has successfully passed his stealth check? If you are taking a 5-foot step and then making your check you aren't stealthed yet because you may still fail the check.

I am curious about both situations.

1. Making a full attack from stealth and then making a 5-foot step while making a stealth check.

2. Making a single attack from stealth and then making a move action while making a stealth check.

Sniping seems to only cover ranged attacks though. It doesn't say anything about melee attacks. Also, would the rules for sniping apply to someone with hide in plain site? I thought the idea was that once you fire you give away your position and are now observed but at range so you can stealth but at penalty. If you can hide while observed does this penalty even apply anymore? Could a ranger with hide in plain site, fire from stealth, 5 foot step, and stealth again without penalty? If not then what is the point of hide in plain site while in combat?

I am actually the DM in my group and I trying to decide what I want to do here. My rogue is falling behind the fighter dramatically as far as damage goes and it seems like allowing him to ambush like this would make his damage more dependable (targets would be flat footed most of the time) even if he is doing less than the fighter. Also, there seems to be some balance here because he couldn't do this in a brightly lit room, covered with glitterdust or faerie fire, and the enemy could ready an action and grapple him after he was attacked from stealth.

Asphere wrote:

So can a rogue with hide in plain site attack, take a 5-foot step and stealth check and re-hide?

In order for it to even have a chance of working, you'd have to have Fast Stealth, because otherwise you're required to move at half speed while Stealthing, and thus couldn't take a 5-foot step.

** spoiler omitted **

I always thought that "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking"

just meant that once you attack you break stealth and are now observed. An attack, imho, is an action that is clearly defined. For example, if I make a standard attack and then take a move action my attack ended before I took my move action. I guess this begs the question that if I make a full round attack did my attack end prior to taking my 5-foot step. It seems the answer would be no but the rules are kind of vague to me.

I will have to think about the Fast Stealth feat. At first glance I interpret that to mean that once you are stealthed you cannot move more than half speed.