This kickstarter has become incredibly awesome. The stretch goal rewards now include extra basic pieces to help make a huge dungeon, curved walls, diagonal walls, narrow doors, demon doors, pillars, and coming soon walls with windows and dungeon dressing such as barrels and treasure piles! Jump on the bandwagon while you still can!
Well with the stretch goals increasing the number of pieces maybe the shipping would be more bearable? I feel you though.
For me, Hirst Arts provides me with the ability to create custom pieces to use in tandem with my DF stuff. The idea of casting everything needed for a massive multi-game dungeon and then putting it all together seems so tedious and boring. Making custom pieces takes way less time and is a lot of fun. I just can't spend the time making full dungeons with Hirst Arts due to family and work.
I am pledging for 5 painted sets with the current stretch goals nets me almost 7 full painted sets. I will never need any more than that.
This kickstarter allows me to bulk up on room space for a super cheap price (I am in the states so I don't have to consider shipping). I can't wait to get the new Hirst Inn molds though. I am going to order them in May and go nuts. I think I will use them to build some static buildings (I have some roof molds) like a lumber mill, alchemical shop, magic shop, and maybe the inn he has shown.
Yeah if you already have some sets this is a great way to bulk them up. I have two rooms & passage sets, 1 wicked additions 1&2 sets, and the advanced builder set. I am always having problems adding large rooms though (plenty of passages). I pledged for 5 sets so I can add huge rooms and fill in a lot of gaps on the table with secret areas and what not. This kickstarter rocks!
That is awesome. That happened to me too. I forgot which tile came from the ruins set and had to force my players to avert their eyes while I went around trying to lift each tile up to check.
I agree Aberzombie you do need a lot of this stuff to make it work right. I have several sets and it is often not enough. But with this KS, I may have enough to be very functional going forward. So if you already have some of this stuff this is a great opportunity to expand. And truthfully, even if you don't have any, this KS is a great opportunity to get started with the best terrain options available in the marketplace.
Yeah but if you go in for 5 sets there is a possibility that you will wind up with 10 sets after the stretch goals are met. I am in for 3 right now and already with the stretch goals I am getting an extra set and then some. I may up it to 5 because with what I already have and with stretch goals I could build a massive dungeon.
This is what I tell my wife when I go to spend money like this: If I had a different hobby I would probably spend way more. If I restored cars think about what that would cost. Playing golf get expensive super fast. Hiking can get really really expensive. Drinking fine Scotches would be a hobby that would dwarf my dwarven forge addiction (pun intended). So I made her choose: Cheap whiskey + dwarven forge or expensive scotch.
Remember you can do more than just make dungeons. You can make buildings too! Check out my recent blog update for some examples (I made some roofs from Hirst Molds, hobby sticks, or just grass flock). Just a warning - this is from a ROTRL module so don't look if you are worried about spoilers.
Edit: Here is a link to some DF roofs made with hirst arts molds over at the DF forum. This is where I got the idea.
John Benbo wrote:
The ruins set is one of my favorite sets. In the future I will buy two more for sure. It really adds character to the dungeon to have the crumbled wall here and there.
I really want the narrow passage set. I finish my PhD this year and after 5 years of living super poor I told my wife that she didn't have to worry about me buying a crazy car to celebrate but as soon as Dwarven Forge restocks I am going nuts.
I will play 4E but I don't like to run it. I like my tabletop rpgs messy and complicated. I once read something about why great works of literature seem to arise within certain languages and not so much others. The claim was that messy languages that were made up of several other languages are fairly inefficient and nonsensical at times. It was claimed that these messy languages produce the great works of literature due to all of the absurd ways one could express themselves within the language. That is probably baloney - I think it probably has to do more with conquest but regardless I like to evoke that analogy to explain why I like complicated rpgs because it sounds neat. I think that is why Pathfinder and D&D 3.5 create characters that do not feel as homogenous as 4E.
I don't care about the 4E marketing campaign. I thought the game master guide for 4E was well done. I wasn't offended by 4E. I think 4E is a great game. I just liked Pathfinder better.
Well a theory position at a prestigious university is harder to get than an experimental position. They tend to be more selective due to how hard it is to get funding for theoretical projects. You see top notch theorists end up at mid to low level universities all of the time. That is not to say that theorists are smarter than experimentalists. Sheldon seems to have done something early on to get tenure I think (though I haven't seen much beyond the first season). Do they all have tenure? I think it would be funny to have a few episodes on what they would do to get tenured or funding. People get crazy at my work when those two things rear their ugly heads.
Fabius Maximus wrote:
If they didn't add the laugh track there would be odd pauses in the dialogue when the audience does laugh. Hundreds of shows have done this - but this show is singled out for it.
If money is not an issue check out molds at Hirst Arts. If you have a skill saw or something you can glue the tiles down to hardboard. Also, you can buy your own silicone molding material to make molds of Hirst Arts projects that you will need multiples of (floors, walls, etc...).
If you go the Hirst Arts route, I recommend the Field stone, Cavern, and Gothic lines (in that order). If you want more info on which particular molds I think are best just let me know. Check out their forums for tips.
All those years of not eating the play-doh finally paid off. My players will soon stumble upon this monster and so I decided to whip something up fast with some air dry clay and a couple of washers. I would love to see a pro make something along these lines. It was fun to make.
When I started this was extremely useful:
I prime miniatures with a cheap black spray paint from Wal-Mart. It cost $.89. I seal them with three coats of spray matte sealer by Krylon (also cheap). I used testor's dull coat in the past but to be honest I couldn't really see a difference. I mainly use Reaper paints but I have a few from Coat'd Arms and Citadel. They are much thinner than the craft acrylic paints and they seem to work better for miniatures.
Faces are the hard part. I bought a lot of mage knight miniatures and redid their faces for practice.
Brushes matter. I would invest in Kolinsky Sable brushes. Just take care of them and they will last. You can get a couple online for a good price.
Regular stealth will not let you do this because you are being observed. Unless the ninja, Magus, fighter, or alchemist dipped into Shadowdancer to get HiPS they wouldn't be able to do it.
Hide in plain site means you can hide in...plain site. It says you can hide while being observed as long as you are 10' away from a dim square. It negates the need for concealment. That is the point of it. You are literally fading into shadows. Your definition of HiPS isn't any different than a plain old stealth check if you still need something to hide behind (to become unobserved). Also, shadowdancers are supernatural. After all they can summon an undead shade to do their bidding.
The question here is whether or not you can stealth on a 5' step. Is the Shadowdancer considered to be "attacking" even after the attacks have been resolved and the Shadowdancer is taking her 5' step? Some say yes and some say no. If it is no, then the Shadowdancer can stealth during a 5' step after a full round action because stealth is a non-action that is usually performed as part of a movement. If the answer is yes the shadowdancer is "attacking" after the actual attacks have been resolved then the shadowdancer cannot stealth during their 5' step.
Almost everyone agrees that a Shadowdancer can make a standard attack, and then take a 5' step and stealth. Some are calling the 5'step and stealth a "move action" and some say it isn't.
You can't draw a weapon for free while taking a 5' step because the rules specifically say that drawing a weapon is a move action and that if you have a BAB of +1 or higher you can combine it with movement to form a move action.
The rules for stealth are different. The rule quoted above is from the CRB pg 107. The rule does not require a move action to use. Nor does it require movement at all. It says it is usually a non-action but you can use it as a part of movement. It says "movement" instead of "move action". Regardless, you do not have to move to do a stealth check, nor do the rules say that using a stealth check to hide is a move action.
1 sneak attack with multiple attacks is better than none. If the enemy's back is in a corner and he cannot be flanked you get zero sneak attacks if you aren't attacking from stealth.
That is fair. I am teetering on making the same rule.
james maissen wrote:
Clearly a creature can be dropped in the middle of another's turn. Simply look at the feats Cleaving Finish, etc. How would they function in your house rules? Likewise a PC hitting a trap or other obstacle is effected by them immediately- not at the end of their turn. There is no 'resolution' stage of a PC's turn.
That isn't what happened in my example though. I was saying that the 5 foot step phase of the full-round attack isn't treated as a sequential event because Bob is attacking during the full-round. If that is true, then even during Bob's 5-foot step he is considered "attacking" and therefore cannot use a stealth check.
This view was countered with an example of Bob hitting John who has fire shield. How would this be resolved for example if Bob took a full-round action to hit John and on the second attack incurred enough damage to be unconscious and then took a 5-foot step? If he passes out prior to taking the 5 foot step then that implies that the 5 foot step is a sequential event and a full-round action doesn't really use a"full-round" as the rules imply because Bob wouldn't be attacking. If this is true then Bob isn't considered to be "attacking" and he can make a stealth check during a 5 foot step.
I didn't mean to imply that the phases of a full-round attack were simultaneous. Re-reading my post looks like that's what I meant - my apologies. I meant to imply that a 5-foot step during a full round action could be considered simultaneous. If it isn't than I am back to square one with allowing a stealth check during a 5 foot step during a full round attack because Bob is no longer "attacking".
Where does it say that you have to make your stealth check as part of another action. All I see is
It doesn't say that you can only stealth during movement or as a part of another action.
Since the action mentions movement, i think they mean it to be part of a move action. The 5 foot step wouldn't work.
Well it doesn't require any type of movement at all. The rule states that a stealth check is usually a non-action but is usually done as part of a movement. It doesn't say it has to be done as part of a movement.
james maissen wrote:
Yes lets talk about this because so far this has been the only thing that has convinced me that you cannot stealth after making a full-round attack.
Your first example: Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. A character full-round attacks someone that has fire shield damage, takes 1d6+1 damage, which drops his hp to below zero causing him to fall unconscious. Is this correct? I thought that damage was resolved at the end of the attackers turn. I would have it play out like so: Bob makes a full-round attack against John (who has fire shield) and then 5-foot steps. The fire shield damage lowers Bob's hp to -1 and Bob falls unconscious. In my head this plays out because Bob attacks is set aflame takes a 5 foot step and then drops. People really do this when on fire so it doesn't bother me that much.
As to your second example I am not sure I understand. Everything that happens during Bob's TURN was simultaneous. Everything that happens during a round is sequential but just barely (6 seconds). Bob would see the goblin moving toward him and begin his full-attack. This is just how I interpret things...I could be wrong though. (this is why I really like hackmaster 5e combat).
So I think I have been convinced that with HiPS:
1. A full-round attack + 5-foot step + stealth is not possible. The only reason is due to the fact that everything that occurs during a full-round attack is interpreted as happening simultaneously - not one after the other. For example, a full round attack, 5 foot step, and yelling at a comrade are all happening at the same time. If that is true, making a stealth check during your 5 foot step violates the rule: "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging".
2. A standard attack + 5 foot step (or move action for that matter) + stealth is possible because your attack has ended prior to the movement and you are no longer "attacking" and are not breaking the rule from #1. I suppose this gives the rogue/shadowdancer a nice defensive ability to get out of melee if he is heavily injured but still allows him an attack - it is certainly better than having to make a full-round action to withdrawal.
It would be cool if there were a feat to make 1 possible.
Thanks for the insight everyone!
I always understood the sniping rule as an exception to regular stealth because the attacker is ranged and not melee. Since once the ranged attacker fires and gives away his position he is effectively "observed" because his position is known. So a regular joe could make a stealth check at penalty even though the enemy knows where he is. HiPS negates this because the attacker should be able to hide while being observed as long as there is dim light within 10'. But this is really an aside to the topic I was exploring I guess - although I am still getting good insight from you guys so that is all that matters!
Between your two posts and the way you keep changing the parameters of the question, I am getting confused. But I am going to try to break it all down and explain it as best I can.
I have pretty much been asking two separate questions in both threads. I even presented them as a numerated list in one of my posts. In case it wasn't clear: Can you
1. Full round action and 5 foot stealth
This is where things get fuzzy for me. Drawing a weapon is a clearly defined action. It is listed on table 8-2 as a move action. A stealth check is not assigned an action type. On page 107 of the CRB it says that Stealth is usually not an action and that it is normally made as part of a movement. It doesn't require it to be made as part of a movement. The reason it is usually made as part of a movement is because the stealther is attempting to break line of sight so that he can meet the criteria that stealth requires. You keep using the phrase "add an extra action to a movement" but this isn't what is happening.
Again movement is not required to attempt a stealth check.
This depends on Stealth being a type of action. It is not defined as such as far as I can tell. If it is not an action, and it does not require a move action or even movement and the rogue has dipped into SD to get HiPs, what rule doesn't allow the rogue to stealth in plain site as long as he is 10' away from a dim light square after making a full-round action? You are aloud to take a 5-foot step, free action, and a swift action as part of a full-round action so why not a stealth check?
The necromancer was simply given as an example as to why this tactic wouldn't make the rogue invincible. Since the necromancer has a perception of +24 and our level 8 rogue had a stealth of + 21 (he has some goodies on) he has a high chance of being detected and not receiving his sneak attack bonus or catching the enemy flat footed.
I wasn't aware that I was proposing that the rogue/SD attack and stealth at the same time. The stealth happens after the attack. Now this is the best argument I have seen so far. I have always thought that rule meant that you blow your cover when you attack, however, if a full round attack + 5 foot step means that you are simultaneously attacking and taking a 5 foot step then I see your point about not being able to do a stealth check. Everything done during a full-round attack (5-foot step, swift action, free action, etc..) happens simultaneously.
That makes sense. Can anyone direct me to this in the CRB? I can't seem to find this.
Stealth does not require a movement or a move action. It is usually done as part of a movement but it is not required.
I like the idea too. It makes combat fun for me and the player. I am forced to use more utility spells if I am playing a caster to diminish the effectiveness of hide in plain site or as a melee or ranged attacker I would have to ready an action (like grapple) if I knew an attack was imminent (because the rogue/shadowdancer already got me a few times) and incapacitate the sneaky bugger.
Yeah the verisimilitude would be a bit silly if the shadowdancer could keep it up indefinitely. However, the rolling element helps to alleviate this - especially with an enemy with high perception. I don't think the Shadowdancer will succeed every time. If they go up against a Stone Giant Necomancer 7 and they are level 8 it would really come down to pure dice rolls.
I've always interpreted sneak attack to mean that they were able to sneak an attack past their defences because of skill - not that the defender wasn't ready for an attack. So a shadowdancer will sneak some attacks past their defences (succeeding on stealth checks) and will be parried or dodge (failing on stealth checks).
The rules for HiPS are pretty clear. You do not have to find concealment to stealth as long as there is dim light nearby. If there are shadows to hide in within 10 feet of the shadowdancer, she can effectively just disappear.
I assume that there is a supernatural component to this - after all, later a shadowdancer can summon undead shades to do her bidding.
So if you stealth while making a move action and then you fail your stealth check your speed is still halved during that move action?
Also, I haven't been convinced yet that I am making weird rules up.
EDIT: Also, this sort of ambush tactic sounds really fun. Cinematically it plays out in my head as every time the enemy turns around to see what hit him the rogue has pivoted around him very fast and attacked again.
But doesn't that only apply to a character that has successfully passed his stealth check? If you are taking a 5-foot step and then making your check you aren't stealthed yet because you may still fail the check.
I am curious about both situations.
1. Making a full attack from stealth and then making a 5-foot step while making a stealth check.
2. Making a single attack from stealth and then making a move action while making a stealth check.
Sniping seems to only cover ranged attacks though. It doesn't say anything about melee attacks. Also, would the rules for sniping apply to someone with hide in plain site? I thought the idea was that once you fire you give away your position and are now observed but at range so you can stealth but at penalty. If you can hide while observed does this penalty even apply anymore? Could a ranger with hide in plain site, fire from stealth, 5 foot step, and stealth again without penalty? If not then what is the point of hide in plain site while in combat?
I am actually the DM in my group and I trying to decide what I want to do here. My rogue is falling behind the fighter dramatically as far as damage goes and it seems like allowing him to ambush like this would make his damage more dependable (targets would be flat footed most of the time) even if he is doing less than the fighter. Also, there seems to be some balance here because he couldn't do this in a brightly lit room, covered with glitterdust or faerie fire, and the enemy could ready an action and grapple him after he was attacked from stealth.
I always thought that "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking"just meant that once you attack you break stealth and are now observed. An attack, imho, is an action that is clearly defined. For example, if I make a standard attack and then take a move action my attack ended before I took my move action. I guess this begs the question that if I make a full round attack did my attack end prior to taking my 5-foot step. It seems the answer would be no but the rules are kind of vague to me.
I will have to think about the Fast Stealth feat. At first glance I interpret that to mean that once you are stealthed you cannot move more than half speed.