Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Seoni

Ashiel's page

RPG Superstar 8 Season Star Voter. 11,605 posts (11,608 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


1 to 50 of 3,856 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tels wrote:

The problem in Pathfinder is Paizo seems to have taken a much different view on what the commoner is. I mean, cutthroat lawyer is 9th level according to the NPC coded.

You know, in looking through NPC Codex again, it'd be amusing to generate a world based on the stats of NPCs in the codex. Like play in a campaign where the law firm down the street also happens to be one of the deadliest groups of warriors in the town. Where the Princess only needs rescuing because she wants to be rescued. Where the 2nd level city guard calls upon the local tavern for backup (barkeep and barmaids).

Truly, a crazy world.

Yeah, Paizo's NPCs seem to have little to no sense of scale. According to the gamemastering NPC gallery, your average prostitute is a heroic character. >_>

I guess my views have mostly been colored by the original D20/D&D system, and d20 commentary stuff like the Alexandrian.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
What's in the box? wrote:

Ok, so with that being said... How does a lvl 1 commoner react to the omnipotence of adventurers?

You rarely encounter a peasant who shows primal fear to the lvl 3 sorcerer but burning hands is more fatal than an elemental hug.

This actually came up in the last big campaign I ran. In the latter stages of the campaign, the heroes who were doing normal stuff back at 1st-3rd level had grown into powerful forces through the trials they had faced, so when they returned to their lands, they hadn't really realized it but they were like new people returning, and they were in many ways very scary.

In fact, the very order that sent them on the mission, began to question if they were a threat to the security that their order provided to their country. Their templar council was concerned that the party's Paladin and Templar Sorceress had become so powerful that they would be a dangerous threat if they went rogue, which was true.

At one point, the two (who were having some relationship issues that needed to be worked out) were training in a large cathedral (the church has a militant presence, so they have a large training area, kind of like a dojo, on the back side of the cathedral). While the two were sparring, they began revving up the pace of their fighting to a point where the two of them were actually struggling against each other. The intense power between the Paladin and the Sorceress resulted in a number of the high council and the other members of their order coming to watch. Most were terrified of what they saw, and the council was highly concerned (and also rather scared, honestly), because it became very obvious that if the Paladin or Sorceress decided to no longer be good guys there was nothing that their superiors could do about it.

Even back when they were 6th level, they put the fear of god into a criminal ring as they effortlessly trounced a large ambush consisting of a bunch of 1st level warrior thugs and mercenaries.

Quote:

This may be a side point but do your players ever encounter OTHER players? Like how often Is another NPC not an NPC?

I noticed that even when watching Grimgar (which I still recommend but it definitely softens in appeal as it continues) when the Goblin Slayers go out to 'hunt' there is NEVER another adventure ring group to be found...

Have you ever planned a Heist and just as you were started the alarm was sounded and a rapscallion gnome comes bolting around he corner with arms full of loot?

Or gone to save the princess in the tower to finding the guarding dragon slain and tousled sheets but no damsel (in distress or otherwise?)

Not saying it should happen ALL the time but... We can't be the only adventurers out here... Right?

Right. The other adventuring party is a pretty longstanding trope in D&D but it doesn't get a lot of attention these days. I've had players encounter other parties (in fact, a friend of mine had a character saved from Mummy Rot because they encountered a party with a healer that was heading to the same dungeon).


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Put another way, the fire elemental's 2d6 fire damage is a scale that indicates how crazy hot it actually is. It's not hot enough to melt stone and you could trap it inside a stone room (at 1/2 energy damage, the fire will never pierce the 8 hardness of the stone), but most normal people with between 1-12 hit points are in serious danger.

Which is what a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their heads around. 2d6 damage is actually a lot of damage for a normal person to take. A single 1d8 arrow actually has a pretty decent chance of killing the average person without rolling a critical (it's likely that it will drop them to 0 or fewer hit points and they will likely bleed to death without help).

Which makes it all the more epic and fantastic when your 20th level barbarian leaps off a 60 ft. cliff and buries his axe in the skull of the Tarrasque, then proceeds to engage in a one man versus cataclysmic terror, only to beat it into submission (because the Tarrasque is going to get spanked like a four year old in K-Mart by a 20th level martial).


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Klara Meison wrote:

>if realism is done properly, it makes the world feel more alive.

Although, to be fair, for some incomprehensible reason a lot of people I talked to didn't feel that way. It's almost like they want their fiction with glaring plot holes the size of titanic. And when you try to ask questions like "But why didn't Gandalf use eagles from the start? Would have saved the party a whole lot of trouble.", expecting a nice conversation where both sides try to find an in-universe reason for why that happened, they instead get pissed and try to accuse you of being a soulless husk of a person who can't enjoy anything in their life.

Well, the thing is, realism is a bit of a spectrum. In your example before, you assumed being on fire would be instantly fatal and thus 40d6 points of damage. Thing is, 40d6 points of damage is a scale in d20, and that equates to an average of 140 damage.

Now even dividing for half damage due to being energy, that means the fire elemental leaning on a stone wall would begin instantly melting the wall into bits (dealing about 62 damage / round of exposure to the stone) which would be crazy insane hot.

And this is where the scales and spectrum come in.

See, heroes in D&D aren't realistic. They're supernaturally tough. They're the sort who get hit with a giant's mallet and get thrown fifteen feet down a ravine, climb back up pissed off, and ready for more.

Normal people in d20 have like 3-6 hit points. Normal people are like commoners and are traditionally assumed to have an average of +0 in their Constitution and take average Hp for their hit dice. Which means that 2d6 fire damage from a fire elemental is very lethal if it gives them a bear hug. It will burn them so badly as to cause them to die in a span of 12-18 seconds of exposure.

Similarly, being set on fire (such as with an oil or alchemist fire) is usually 1d6 damage, for much the same reason. A normal person can survive a few rounds of being on fire, depending on how engulfed in flames they are, and live to tell about it, but it's a risky business.

However, a high level D&D character could arm wrestle with the fire elemental and the fire elemental would bemoan that the character was squeezing too hard.

Which is where the fantastic element comes in. If we're talking about gritty realism, heroes would never leave the realm of "I shat myself to death because the river water was dirty" and into the realm of "I attempt to suplex the balor!", which is more or less why we have little abstractions like these.

:P


1 person marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:
P.s. Wrote this and accidentally pressed "Cancel" instead of "Submit Post". Blessed be Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C and heightened fine motor skills on an adrenaline rush I got when I realised browser was about to delete the whole thing.
Someone recommended me the Lazerus addon. If my post gets eaten, it lets me recover it. :)
Lazerus for life. I can go back months and find old things I've written.

I think you were in fact the one who recommended it to me. :P


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Klara Meison wrote:
P.s. Wrote this and accidentally pressed "Cancel" instead of "Submit Post". Blessed be Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C and heightened fine motor skills on an adrenaline rush I got when I realised browser was about to delete the whole thing.

Someone recommended me the Lazerus addon. If my post gets eaten, it lets me recover it. :)


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Just another little update. Since I broke the magic chapter into multiple parts (the magic chapter itself which discusses things shared by most magic subdisciplines like duration; range; areas; targeting; concentration checks; subtypes; etc, versus chapters on things like spellcasting and psionics which give information specific to those disciplines), I'm currently working on the spellcasting mechanics which includes things like descriptions for magic schools and explaining things like spells per day, spells known, prepared spells, etc.

Something I wanted to share was that "spellbooks" are getting standard, codified, rules for determining things like price and value of spellbooks based on storage capacity, and some information about making sturdier spellbooks or making spellbooks out of unusual materials.

What this means is that creating custom spellbooks for flavor purposes has never been easier. If you want your campaign's spellbooks to be secret scrolls handed down through your ninja clan, you can do that. If you would prefer to carry around strips of paper with single spells written on them rather than a book, you can do that too. If you want your dwarf to carry amulets with little rune tablets on them that store spells, you could do that too.

Spellbooks have a base value, weight, and sturdiness based on the capacity of the book. These can be quickly modified based on materials. For example, by default a spellbook has 0 hardness and 1 hp / 10 pages, and weighs 0.02 lbs. per page (or 1 lb. / 50 pages). You can do things like add bindings or make a book out of an exotic material (a list of materials is given), so if you ever wanted to know what the cost and weight of a spellbook with 200 pages bound in a mithral case would be...well, now you can.

I'm also going to include some material on special kinds of spellbooks, such as tattoos or familiars.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kryzbyn wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
Greatswords aren't left in the people that are hit by them. Too expensive :P

Heheh, indeed. :P

Mostly what I was getting at was basically that in real life, if you're hit with a greatsword, you've probably got a gaping hole in your favorite torso, which usually comes with unpleasant side effects such as a rapid loss of blood, or organs falling out of your body. :P

But we gloss over that sort of thing because it's just a fun abstraction (and quite frankly, being an adventurer would just involve never getting hit). In much the same way that arrows, bolts, darts, and similar weapons would likely lodge themselves inside you and cause you to die of infection later (it's my understanding that historically, arrows didn't kill nearly as surely as infected arrow wounds did, mostly because archers frequently stuck their arrows in the ground on battlefields).

I won't say that I don't steal some ideas from reality however. Fighting certain creatures in my campaigns can be more of a hassle than usual, since goblins often intentionally wipe their arrowheads in feces to be little s***s (no pun intended) and cause infections to people they hit with them. Since goblins are often smaller and weaker than the other races they find themselves in conflict with, they'll often use stealth + shortbows to haze foes and large beasts before running away and/or hiding, and wait to thin the ranks over time as people or prey succumb to infections (similar to how komodo dragons bite herd animals and then wait for the infection to ruin them).

Oh, I know, I was mostly being facetious...mostly.

Realism can easily ruin a game if you go too far down that rabbit hole, I guess.

It definitely ruins the fantastic elements of the game to be sure. I mean, in D20, it's actually factually a thing that your high level barbarian can get snatched up into the jaws of a dragon, and while pinned in his swordlike teeth, the dragon then exhales his breath that is so hot as to be able to instantly completely destroy a full suit of full plate to the point it's not even armor anymore (in less than 6 seconds, imagine how ****ing hot that would have to be to melt a suit of full plate down to not plate mail in less than 6 seconds) all over your barbarian.

And your barbarian gets pissed about it, forces the dragon's mouth open and slams him with his battleaxe to show his disapproval of the whole thing.

If a gritty RPG is the thing, well, the fantastic elements of D&D would just be right out. There really isn't any prayer against certain types of enemies if "reality" got in the way but they were still magical monster thingies. I mean, a fire elemental could just grab you and that would be the end of things. Most heroes would die a few days later after they caught an arrow that got infected despite not dealing any serious damage. The #1 killer in the realms would probably be diarrhea. :(


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yeah it'd wreck outsider teleporting hard. Their weight limit is a hugely limiting factor to their teleportation. It's also the reason that I gave Mariliths the undersized weapons property when I was rewriting them. Turns out that using large-sized weaponry makes it near impossible to actually teleport unless they're completely naked.

6 large longswords = 48/50 lbs.

This means it's essentially impossible to let them carry around loot for the PCs to get when they defeat her. And that sucks. Loot is cool. :(

So I gave her the undersized weapon quality and so her weapons usually average around 24 lbs. instead, which is plenty of room left to decorate her in lavish doodads, baubles, and bling, which is not only awesome to loot but makes the marilith quite a fashionable enemy to engage. :)


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kryzbyn wrote:
Greatswords aren't left in the people that are hit by them. Too expensive :P

Heheh, indeed. :P

Mostly what I was getting at was basically that in real life, if you're hit with a greatsword, you've probably got a gaping hole in your favorite torso, which usually comes with unpleasant side effects such as a rapid loss of blood, or organs falling out of your body. :P

But we gloss over that sort of thing because it's just a fun abstraction (and quite frankly, being an adventurer would just involve never getting hit). In much the same way that arrows, bolts, darts, and similar weapons would likely lodge themselves inside you and cause you to die of infection later (it's my understanding that historically, arrows didn't kill nearly as surely as infected arrow wounds did, mostly because archers frequently stuck their arrows in the ground on battlefields).

I won't say that I don't steal some ideas from reality however. Fighting certain creatures in my campaigns can be more of a hassle than usual, since goblins often intentionally wipe their arrowheads in feces to be little s***s (no pun intended) and cause infections to people they hit with them. Since goblins are often smaller and weaker than the other races they find themselves in conflict with, they'll often use stealth + shortbows to haze foes and large beasts before running away and/or hiding, and wait to thin the ranks over time as people or prey succumb to infections (similar to how komodo dragons bite herd animals and then wait for the infection to ruin them).


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Klara Meison wrote:
Let's assume something funny is going on then. Suppose a player proposed a custom weapon concept to you - a special weapon designed to let non-mages prevent teleportation attempts. I can imagine some sort of heavy crossbow made of lead for extra weight, that shoots a single barbed arrow attached to a steel cable. Arrow lodges itself in the wizard's left buttcheek, and since it is attached to a steel cable that is attached(not tied, mind you, then arrow and the cable would be separate objects. I am thinking of something like welding.) to a really heavy crossbow, wizard can't teleport. Would you allow that, or would you consider this unbalancing?

Firstly, apologies for being two days late on the reply. :o

What seems to be described is some sort of harpoon item that seems explicitly for the purpose of snaring a foe, so that would take care of the "arrows don't stick in people" issue. From the sounds of it, it also would seem that the item would be explicitly used to anchor someone by using their carrying capacity against them (as a lead crossbow would be ****ing heavy as **** (@_@) ), so sure, why not?

Since you've brought this up, I think I'll need to address this in d20 legends because a definitive answer is much harder to come by than I originally thought and IMHO, that's a bad thing. I'll have to include some details about the teleportation subschool about what sort of things 'porting can free you from and what sort of things it cannot.

Because, interestingly, I'm no longer sure that you can teleport out of a Net (it's not clear as to whether or not the net's requirement for a Strength check to move a distance greater than the rope the attacker is holding takes priority over magical forms of movement or not), and I think you probably should be able to teleport out of a net (because you're traveling through the astral plane, not the physical world) but at this point I'm really not sure (honestly, this will be filed under "other things to address alongside freedom of movement").

So thanks. :D

As an aside... I'm not actually certain that using an anchor would stop many of my mages. My 7 Str mages quite typically have the best carrying capacities in our groups. My "witch" Agatha I've mentioned on the boards lots of times had a 7 Strength, but thanks to things like muleback cords, ant haul, and shapeshifting, at one point the party pondered whether or not it would be worth climbing a tower to fight the BBEG at the top when Agatha could have just pushed the darn thing over.

We opted to raid the tower for the lulz. :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think the reason comes from the level of abstraction. There's not really any reason that an arrow should cause additional bleed damage if a greatsword doesn't, especially if the latter actually causes more actual damage.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Speaking of teleport as surgery...

One of my favorite offensive psionic powers is dissipating touch which is a damage dealing "psychoportation (teleportation)" power that deals damage by literally using teleportation to unmake your body without reassembling it, teleporting chunks of the victim without the rest of them.

It would be a lot like Scar from Full Metal Alchemist. You literally just grab onto someone and tear them apart on a molecular level. It's a surprisingly decent damage power because it's non-elemental, so short of the target having dimensional anchor cast on them or failing to pierce spell resistance, there's not a whole lot that stops the damage.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Klara Meison wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:

In your opinion, when does a character's inventory begin and when does it end? Teleport-like spells only work if you are carrying less than maximum load, so if a wizard is carrying a backpack with a big rock(heavier than his maximum load), it won't work. But what if an enemy tied that rock to a net with hooks and threw it at the wizard? He can't very much unentangle himself from the rock, but can he teleport without it?

EDIT: ...Also, why is Tacticslion favouriting every post? Is this a local thing? I wanted to ask this for some time.

Generally, I'd allow the character to simply decide to leave items behind. A good rule of thumb would be, if the item is considered attended by the character (and thus subject to the character's defenses), it's probably your item. Generally speaking, I've never heard of anyone considering a net or similar item "attended" by its victim so I'd go with that. :P
How about an arrow sticking through a wizard's arm? Can Teleport be used for some forms of surgery?

That's a good question, and I think the most honest answer is that the system is a bit too abstract for it to really come up. By default, ammunition that hits a foe is considered destroyed and being struck with a ranged attack (piercing or otherwise) doesn't actually become lodged into a character.

For example, being struck with an arrow doesn't require a Heal check to remove the arrow before you can recover from the wound naturally.

A similar question came up a long time ago, when it was wondered if you somehow attached at antimagic field to an arrow (such as an Arcane Archer using imbue arrow) wouldn't that ruin anyone that was shot with the arrow since they'd be stuck in the field until the arrow was removed. The answer was simply that unless something funny is going on, arrows don't actually stick to enemies after the initial shot.

That said, thinking about it a bit while getting ready for work, I think it's one of those questions that due to the way the system works has no 100% certain answer. I think if the item actually contributes to your load then it should probably work, though I see the stone w/ hooks on it to be akin to a variation of a net or entangle spell (both have additional stipulations about movement outside of the entangled condition).

If the item was written so that as long as it was latched onto the character it counted as being carried by the character, then RAW, teleport couldn't do anything for them.

So, having thought about it further, I guess the answer is "it depends". :P


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Klara Meison wrote:

In your opinion, when does a character's inventory begin and when does it end? Teleport-like spells only work if you are carrying less than maximum load, so if a wizard is carrying a backpack with a big rock(heavier than his maximum load), it won't work. But what if an enemy tied that rock to a net with hooks and threw it at the wizard? He can't very much unentangle himself from the rock, but can he teleport without it?

EDIT: ...Also, why is Tacticslion favouriting every post? Is this a local thing? I wanted to ask this for some time.

Generally, I'd allow the character to simply decide to leave items behind. A good rule of thumb would be, if the item is considered attended by the character (and thus subject to the character's defenses), it's probably your item. Generally speaking, I've never heard of anyone considering a net or similar item "attended" by its victim so I'd go with that. :P


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Klara Meison wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

I would just like to go on record saying "Rewriting the magic system (to be more modular) and spells (so, so many spells Q_Q) sucks".

How do you find the willpower to do that, by the way? Avoid procrastinating?

Typically I do most of my heavy writing while listening to music on repeat. Also if my mind is feeling a burnt out and I can't think anymore, I'll play a hentai game or watch some porn for a bit, then go back to writing.

Lately I've been listening to...
Throne, Heroes, Glory & Gore, Heroes, Wildfire, Impossible, Claritycraft, I Wish I Had An Angel (Most anything from Nightwish, though this and Nemo are my favs), Fire Inside (I've found myself pretty fond of this suicide sheep channel), and lots of random stuff.

I'll pick one and loop it for a while while typing.

>Also if my mind is feeling a burnt out and I can't think anymore, I'll play a hentai game or watch some porn for a bit, then go back to writing.

That's...quite open of you. Thanks for sharing?...

*Shrugs* I try to be honest so, since it's usually a way I'll let my brain chill for a bit after the words start running together on the screen, I said as much. :P

That said, lately the enemy of progress is Stardew Valley and DotA. Truly, these are the overlords of my wasted time. :P

Quote:

>I've found myself pretty fond of this suicide sheep channel

Have another suicide sheep channel with good music then.

Thanks. :D


1 person marked this as a favorite.

That said, procrastination is my eternal enemy. It's easily my worst character flaw, and while I intend to work on that...I haven't gotten around to it yet. :P


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Klara Meison wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

I would just like to go on record saying "Rewriting the magic system (to be more modular) and spells (so, so many spells Q_Q) sucks".

How do you find the willpower to do that, by the way? Avoid procrastinating?

Typically I do most of my heavy writing while listening to music on repeat. Also if my mind is feeling a burnt out and I can't think anymore, I'll play a hentai game or watch some porn for a bit, then go back to writing.

Lately I've been listening to...
Throne, Heroes, Glory & Gore, Heroes, Wildfire, Impossible, Claritycraft, I Wish I Had An Angel (Most anything from Nightwish, though this and Nemo are my favs), Fire Inside (I've found myself pretty fond of this suicide sheep channel), and lots of random stuff.

I'll pick one and loop it for a while while typing.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I would just like to go on record saying "Rewriting the magic system (to be more modular) and spells (so, so many spells Q_Q) sucks".


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Klara Meison wrote:
What is your opinion on the Tippyverse?

Last I checked out Tippyverse, I remember thinking it made sense. It seemed to take a lot of things to their rational conclusion and whether it's your cup of fantasy tea or not, it's a good exercise in thinking about how things introduced into the game affect the world at large.

I've discussed some similar, but noteably milder, things on my blog before. Mostly remarking about things such as how magic solves the energy question, since you can create infinite sources of magical energy; be they simple things like repeating shocking grasp generators, to things like permanency + wall of fire. Magic equates to free energy in the very least, as it breaks certain fundamental laws of our reality. You can create energy and matter where there was none before. Even if your equate things like fireballs as something like channeling the elemental plane of fire, you are still dealing with energies of a factually infinite plane of existence (ergo, infinite energy for all practical purposes).

So the question is, how does magic influence your world? Tippyverse is one example of an author of the setting who took it to the extremes (and honestly, it's a rare example of something that is not only extreme but reasonably so).

While I've never GMed a Tippyverse campaign or adventure, I've used it as a learning tool for designing my own campaign, because to me, the thing that makes a fantasy setting truly fantastic is how the fantasy elements change the way people in those worlds live compared to our own.

For example, in my campaign setting (Alvena), the world once existed in a sort of Tippyverse state (essentially high magitechology) before it was brought to ruin by a cataclysmic war between their material plane and the burning hells. So now the world is in a state of recovery, which includes finding ancient technologies and lost artifacts and re-inventing things that were commonplace in the ancient world (que adventuring parties exploring ancient ruins looking for magic shwag, oh yeah!). However, the world is still very magical in ways I feel make the world feel uniquely alive.

For example, there are small settlements all over the world. No climate is truly unlivable given the effort. Small settlements in deserts are supported by adepts, or using manufactured create water items to sustain the population, marking little points of life in regions that are otherwise arid wastelands.

Further still, even the architectural norms are a bit different in Alvena. Kiln fired bricks are one of the most common building materials found in the world, partly because of the ease of creating them in mass, but also because they are flame retardant, and in a world where some random teenager discovering their innate sorcery might involve burning down Rome, using dry wood and thatch isn't an ideal building material if it can be avoided. Castles may appear to have "hats" on them, which consist of slanted rooftops with murder holes and hatches, to protect against aerial invaders and dragons.

Similarly still, running water isn't particularly unusual in areas that are "civilized", though their method of achieving running water may vary from place to place. One example was a village that had a central water tower and lots of little wooden chutes that deliver water throughout the town from the central point (causing the town to have what appeared to be series of wooden pathways above the buildings). A bit crude but it meant most people had access to clean water on demand.

Quote:
Have you ever tried running a campaign in such a setting? Did any of your players ever try to begin the reformation process into the tippyverse-lite in any of your games (e.g. mass teleportation to solve travel safety, create food and water traps to solve hunger,...)?

Well, I don't think they ever set up mass travel ports. That said, they have often pushed the limits of several campaigns I've ran. My brother's lich once grew himself a family in a lab, built a settlement for his fellow repitilians to integrate into the cultures of the core races, and built an underground trade tunnel network to discourage highway banditry (essentially making a sort of precursor to a subway system), though that was made mostly the old fashioned way with kobold miners and the help of some dire badgers.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Klara Meison wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Icehawk wrote:
Personally I think being tired should apply the penalties of the lullaby spell. Exhaustion and fatigue are all about physical fatigue. I can run a lot while on no sleep, but my attention span suffers and I may nod off very easily. Eventually I'll just pass out if I want it or not cus my body will force it too whether it likes it or not.

This is one of the reasons I want to revise the fatigue and exhaustion conditions in D20 Legends. Mostly because fatigue and exhaustion, in reality, affect things like your concentration and awareness, and cause you to make mistakes you wouldn't normally make.

As a result, I'm leaning towards making fatigue and exhaustion work in a similar fashion to conditions like shaken, where you have some penalties across the board. They will likely apply penalties to a caster's concentration checks (which is used to cast spells in this system, so being fatigued would make it harder to cast spells effectively, causing you to fall back on using lower level spells).

I would have also added some flavorful, but usually mechanically unimportant debuf-e.g. being tired would force you to make DC 15-ish will saves every hour to not fall asleep if you are doing something non-stimulating (standing watch at night would be a good example), with stacking bonuses on the check for drinking coffee, walking around, splashing water in your face, etc, etc, etc.

Although, on a second thought, this might be the sort of thing best left to the GM, and not hardcoded into the base rules.

Actually, that seems like a pretty good idea. It would solve the issue that's existed in D20 for a while. Specifically, that characters don't ever have to actually sleep and if they don't mind the exhaustion penalties can pretty much be awake 24/7, even without magic items such as a ring of sustenance or similar.

Making it similar to other environmental effects, where it becomes progressively harder to remain awake seems like a pretty good idea. Kind of like how holding your breath starts at DC 15 and adds +1 for each previous check (meaning that eventually you will need to breathe, even if your Fortitude is godly).


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Icehawk wrote:
Personally I think being tired should apply the penalties of the lullaby spell. Exhaustion and fatigue are all about physical fatigue. I can run a lot while on no sleep, but my attention span suffers and I may nod off very easily. Eventually I'll just pass out if I want it or not cus my body will force it too whether it likes it or not.

This is one of the reasons I want to revise the fatigue and exhaustion conditions in D20 Legends. Mostly because fatigue and exhaustion, in reality, affect things like your concentration and awareness, and cause you to make mistakes you wouldn't normally make.

As a result, I'm leaning towards making fatigue and exhaustion work in a similar fashion to conditions like shaken, where you have some penalties across the board. They will likely apply penalties to a caster's concentration checks (which is used to cast spells in this system, so being fatigued would make it harder to cast spells effectively, causing you to fall back on using lower level spells).


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I forgot about the Dex to damage thing. That makes it a lot less one-sided. :o


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Tels wrote:
You may be happy to know that in the upcoming CotCT Hardcover, they are releasing a Korvosa variant of the psuedodragon specifically to address the issue of imps vs psuedodragons. Supposedly, the idea of Korvosa comes from James Jacobs homebrew setting where pusedodragons are 'beefier' or something like that. I dunno, perhaps they were better in a fight in 2nd edition when he started building his campaign setting?

I'm not really sure how I feel about that. On one hand, I think it's kind of a cool idea. On the other hand, it feels weird to force "the mighty pseudodragon, found nowhere else except Korvosa, so that we can deus ex this encounter". Even then, how much of this encounter is going to be left up to the PC's doing vs the newer pseudobeefs, I wonder.

Hmmm...I guess time will tell. :o

Mind you, I'm not wholly against PCs getting help from the NPCs (I'd ideally hope that the PCs are the deciding factor in an encounter though, whenever possible, otherwise there's not much point for them to be there if it's not somehow advancing the narrative) so maybe it'll work. I'm just kind of funny about verisimilitude and making exceptional pseudodragons just to make a poorly designed counter work a little better feels really weird to me.

Seems like a less hamfisted way to go about it would be to have a few guards armed with silver weapons and the like around in the area (who could share some of their weaponry with the PCs) and have the pseudodragons take more of a support role by using their blindsense to point out which spaces the imps are in while the party members and the guards do their thing. Maybe even someone with faerie fire or glitterdust (when combined with the psuedodragon's blindsense, you'll pretty sure to hit with it).


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Since I haven't forgotten about the best & worst encounters bit, I'm still going through the options. At the moment, I think I've got it narrowed down to a certain encounter that I think is super garbage, but the post explaining why it's garbage is going to be pretty long.

However, so you know what to expect, in the same fashion as with the worst homebrew encounters, I'm going to be basing my judgment on a few factors.

1: The concept and/or narrative of the encounter. Nonsensical encounters are going to be worse than those that make sense. If the encounter requires you to suspend a lot of disbelief, or leaves the party very confused as to why it was even a thing, that's not a good sign.

2: How valid is it mechanically. Nonsense mechanics, blatant rule breaking, getting common rules wrong, or drastically misappropriating the encounter design system (especially if you try to "fix" that misuse with hamfisted ad-hoc adjustments) are going to land you a lower score in this category.

3: How interesting / fun the encounter is. Perhaps the most important part. If the encounter isn't at least fun, interesting, and reasonably challenging, that's a strike against it. If the encounter is breaking the first two rules and still manages to be abhorrently bad from an interest level, it is exceptionally bad for the encounter.

There's a few dishonorable mentions from games I've GMed, intended to GM, or played in.

Jade Regent
Jade Regent #1 actually had two encounters that really ground my gears.

Spoiler:
In Jade Regent, the party eventually makes their way to a keep that has been overtaken by some badguys. They slaughtered the people living inside, including the guard, and then made the place an improvised base of operations or somesuch.

Two wrongs do not make a wight
The first encounter that really bothered me was with the former captain of the guard. He had risen as a wight because of his brutal murder ('cause people do that sometimes). However, despite being intelligent (wights are actually really smart), and despite no badguy in the keep having any way of controlling him, the wight is nonhostile to his murderers in the keep and has nothing better to do than mindlessly attack the PCs. Adding insult to injury, a fairly large amount of space is dedicated to explaining this guy's backstory, only for none of it to ever be a thing in the game itself and he's just a generic goon.

Adding more injury to insults, the wight is described as wearing his plate armor that he died in, but you're told just to ignore his equipment and armor, running him as a generic wight from the bestiary with no bonuses or penalties for being decked out in armor. *Angryface*

Comments: I actually adjusted this encounter when I planned to run the game. I tossed 1 warrior level on the wight, counted his damned armor, and had him lurking about the keep trying to figure out how to best take his revenge for the murder of himself and his people. Initially unfriendly towards the party, the party could attempt to convince the wight to join forces with them in defeating the denizens of the keep in an enemy of my enemy sort of way. If the party succeeded, the wight would allow the party to leave the keep unmolested.

Suicide Family Squad
In the same keep, there's a family of ogrekin who are just squatting there. They're unrelated to the badguys in the keep, and their motivation is they just want to be left alone instead of driven out of yet another home. Their relationship with the badguys in the keep is more or less "don't bother us, we won't bother you". The main NPC is a rather motherly older sister figure who sees it as her duty to protect her "family" because they just want to be left alone.

However, they're expected to fight to the death the moment they encounter the party because they don't want to leave this place they're squatting at (which had just been explained wasn't actually very important to them for any reason) and don't want to be evicted. All care as to the safety of her kin aside, they just really want to engage in some serious suicide vs adventuring party.

Comment: When I was planning to run this game, I modified this encounter too. The ogrekin there only became hostile if the party became hostile and were simply unfriendly otherwise. It made no sense to me that the ogrekin could squat there with a bunch of foreign tengu and evil badguys who they didn't have any relation or care for, but were so insane as to attack a bunch of armed individuals on sight out of a simple fear of being bothered. I also made it so that the party could try to ask them questions if they got on their good side, since they were more familiar with the keep (and given the way my party's roll, they might have helped them find a home if they asked what they were doing in the keep. Who knows?).

Curse of the Crimson Throne
Curse of the Crimson Throne is actually the first Paizo AP that I ever got and I gotta say it's one of the the standards by which I measure most things, but it's not without its flaws. There's one encounter in the first AP that has become a bit notorious and I have to wonder what was the author thinking.

Spoiler:
In CotCT #1, just after the first adventure, the game becomes significantly less linear and revolves around certain encounters and scenes that can occur leading up to the next on the rails adventure portions (I approve :D). However, one of those encounters...

An Imp-ossible Encounter
The encounter takes place while the party is wandering about alone, when a pack of imps who have escaped over time from the local mage college see them as being an easy mark for "wealth and mayhem" and decide to attack them. Four (4) imps attack the party out of nowhere.

At this point in the adventure, the party might be 2nd level. Four imps are CR 6 and a pretty hard CR 6 at that (above the "epic" APL+3 mark). Imps have 13 Hp, DR 5, fast healing 2, a nasty (for its level) poison, can shapeshift, and at-will invisibility. The combination of fast healing, DR, and invisibility means that it's trivial for them to just zip out of melee when they're in danger and heal up, only to return for more pain. They're also too fast for the party to flee from (50 ft. fly speed w/ perfect maneuverability).

A party of 2nd level characters is going to get brutally pillaged by this encounter, and if the party didn't make it to 2nd level, doubly so. Because they have at-will invisibility, they will always get the surprise round and they can get into some poor fool's square without provoking because of it. Their AC, speed, and attacks are well poised to walk over a party.

The "solution" was that the writer said a half-dozen pseudo-dragons will come along and help the party mop them up, and then fly away when the encounter is over. Which is great in theory, except it's morbidly obvious that the person writing it has never even looked at the pseudodragon monster entry, aside from maybe admiring the cool picture while paging through the Monster Manual.

The Pseudodragon literally cannot hurt the imp. Even if all six dragons leaped onto a single imp, or a hundred, they couldn't ever actually defeat that imp or even wound it. It's impossible for them. Even on a critical hit, they cannot deal more than 1 point of damage, and they can't pierce the imp's DR, and the imp is immune to their poison, they are so much weaker than the imps that they have little prayer of successfully wrestling with the imps, and they're at a significant disadvantage to the imps in terms of AC and to-hit rolls, and the imps can tear them to pieces (d4 damage, the dragons are vulnerable to their poison, etc).

It's literally impossible for this encounter to go as the writer describes it going. What will actually happen is, at best, a PC dies, along with a half dozen pseudodragons, while the rest of the party flees for their lives, and (likely) worse is the party doesn't realize how utterly screwed they are until it's far, far too late.

Paizo even released a custom feat to "fix" the encounter on their blog (yay, I'm sure 90% of the owners of the book thought to look on the blog for an update), but their fix was a feat that only worked for pseudodragons that made their natural attacks count as silver (because apparently they sharpen their nails on shingles that have bits of silver in them or something, I forget). Oh...what a fix. They can now deal a whole 1 point of nonlethal damage to the imps (for those paying attention, nonlethal damage heals alongside normal damage when an effect heals you, so if two pseudodragons hit an imp for 2 nonlethal damage, and a PC hits an imp for 2 damage, and the imp fast heals 2 damage, the imp now has 0 lethal and nonlethal damage).

Thanks for the fix. ಠ_ಠ


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think I fell in love with a lot of the reptilian races because of how cool the yuan-ti seemed in the 3E MM.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aliizsa Sylvari wrote:
Aratrok wrote:

Incidentally, the moat important qualities for that character are "is a gnome", "has normal feats", and "PC wealth". It'd be almost exactly as effective as a warrior of the same level.

That's equal parts amazing and depressing.

Aratrok wrote:
the moat important
Aratrok wrote:
moat
Nagaplz.

That's racial subtype profiling. :P


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well, while the magical enhancements don't seem to work based on the slot rules, any nonmagical effects of wearing multiple armors would still occur. So parade armor would still give bonuses to Diplomacy, for example. That one armor that grants DR vs...something (I forget what) would work, etc.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So I guess our hypothetical fighter is pretty much SOL on the under armor thing. He could still wear it, but the top armor turns off when you put it on, making it a moot point.

We'll just have to go with a fortification buckler instead and eat the -1 to hit while using our reach weapons and bows. Very painful since our to-hit is already bad for a martially focused character (mostly because competing martials like Barbarians and Rangers not only have better ability scores, but have better class features).


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Hmmm, actually, exploring this a bit more, I think I've found the part of the text that's relevant. I think it's less concerned with the armor at all, but concerned with the body-slot for the armor, which is actually a thing. A thing I admittedly forgot about (I usually think about body slots in terms of things like helms, rings, boots, belts, gloves, face, etc. Not weapons, shields, armor), so my bad.

EDIT: I can't find any text saying the one with the higher bonuses supercede, merely that additional ones (presumably those worn after the previous) cease working.

Core Rulebook, Magic Items wrote:

Of course, a character may carry or possess as many items of the same type as he wishes. However, additional items beyond those in the slots listed above have no effect.

Some items can be worn or carried without taking up a slot on a character's body. The description of an item indicates when an item has this property.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:

I'm pretty sure they also FAQrattaed your multiple armor scheme, saying that the extra armor enhancements don't count as they are 'turned off' by the superior bonus'ed armor.

If it weren't for PFS, I'd have no reason to pay serious attention to the FAQ.

That's amusing. So what happens when they're equal bonuses? :P

Like, if you had a +1 ghost touch armor (+4 armor) and a +1 invulnerable armor (+4 armor)? (?_?)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:

Paizo says no to the item fighter.

But we can safely ignore Paizo on this. :P

Also, unless there's an errata of some kind, they're quite wrong (unless there is some sort of RAW that I'm unaware of.

(I mean, yeah, they're correct about intent, inherently, unless they choose to lie, but that isn't true from an as-written standpoint.)

Didn't you know about FAQratta?

Honestly, I don't even consider the FAQ when I give advice. Paizo flip flops on issues all the time, and they can't figure out what a SLA is to save their lives.

According to the FAQ you can't use SLAs to create magic items because they aren't spells, but you can use them to qualify for things because they are spells, and you could use them to qualify for item creation feats because you have a caster level, but then changed it to you can't do so because the caster level doesn't count because you have to be able to cast spells (even though item creation feats do not require you to be able to cast spells).

They never actually provide any textual reason for their judgments. It's simply not a FAQ. It's whatever Paizo thinks the rules of the game are this week, even if the actual rules don't back them up at all.

They humorously changed it after I posted some stuff concerning the summoner and their eidolon making sweet, sweet use of these things. I don't know if it was related but it happened very soon thereafter. :P

I lost a lot of respect for Paizo's FAQ, way back when they released the Cavalier and then nerfed Handle Animal so that you'd have to spend your animal's feats on armor proficiency, whereas since 3E and even during early Pathfinder, it was known that training an animal for combat also trained them to wear barding. That respect has eroded away to nothingness over the years.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

That said, I think I would indeed love using the MMPR theme for the character's theme music. That would be the most badass gnome ever.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

More or less. I hate to say it but in core (Core Rulebook + Bestiary) there is very little that a fighter has to work with. What you do have is not even enough decent feats to fill out your total feats with anything worth while, and your class features are literally ass. It takes you 10 levels to get +2 hit / +2 damage with a very specific group of melee weapons, where the Barbarian was doing that back at level 1.

Most end up making core fighters just strait archers, because while it gobbles up all your feats there's nothing better for you to be doing with them, but then you're so easily rendered useless by a simple wind wall spell or anything blocking vision that it's painful to have nothing worthwhile to fall back on.

Sad as it is, there's just very little in the fighter chassis that I see that's worth building around. What they do get is obscenely minor by comparison to their peers, or are things that don't actually give you any options that you didn't already have before.

So this is the route I'd take. A sort of mecha-knight gnome, who uses his magical tinkering skills to cover himself in an ironman suit of magical doodads and rides his mechanized steed into battle.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Continuing from the previous post, the general idea is at low levels you're just a martial doing the martial thing. By mid levels, you'll be a mounted martial. By higher levels, your construct mount should be made entirely out of adamantine, both of you should have constant freedom of movement, and your mount's HD should always be equal to your own (additional HD are +500 gp to the crafting cost), allowing you and your construct to zip around and clobber people.

Constructs have bad HP and worse saves, but since you'll have a ton of HD on the construct, hardness 20, construct immunities, and freedom of movement on the construct, they'll generally be pretty resilient against sudden existence failures. EDIT: Adding an x/day make whole spell to your construct is a good way to ensure it has a way to heal up between encounters and adventures.

EDIT 2: Since your construct is Intelligent, it can also acquire feats and skills (though constructs have no class skills and only 2 skill points / level). Still, that's a big help since you're a fighter and your skills are pretty bad.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Klara Meison wrote:
Getting back to the topic, if you were challenged to make a fighter(i.e. a character with only levels in fighter) that, despite this, had nice things, what would you do?

Write "(Fighter)" on his sheet next to the word Ranger. :D

Okay, so a more serious answer...

I'd probably end up using as much system mastery as I could bring to bare, and tons of consumable items like potions and oils; but the rest depends largely on my party makeup. I hate playing fighters in a group because they are so incredibly item-dependent that you usually end up being a drain on the party for needing your own craft-slave to keep you relevant.

If I was going to build a core-only fighter who was intended to fill the role of a martial damage dealer, but not drag the party down so hard, I'd probably do something like...

Race: Gnome (for the racial CL that scales with your HD, but the size bonus to hit / AC are nice).

Scores: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16, In 7, Wis 10, Cha 11.

Favored Class: Fighter (+1 skill/level)

Skill Summary: Getting 2 skill points / level (1 minimum, +1 favored). Pre-3rd level, I'll dump 1 rank into Climb, Intimidate, Survival, and Swim. After that, I'll max Spellcraft and drop the floating 1 after it's maxed into random skills (usually aiming to get to the take-10 marks on skills like Heal and survival).

Feats: Iron Will (1st), Craft Wondrous Item (3rd), Craft Magic Arms & Armor (5th), Craft Construct (7th), Forge Ring (9th), Leadership (11th), Lightning Reflexes (13th), Toughness (15th), 2 unaccounted for

Bonus Feats: Catch-Off Guard (1st), Point Blank Shot (2nd), Rapid Shot (4th), Manyshot (6th), Quick Draw (8th), Improvised Weapon Mastery (10th), 12th-20th up to taste.

Summary: Nothing super special or super horrible at low levels. We'll start 1st level with some chainmail, a few clubs, a longspear, and a few slings, a few supplies and we'll use Survival for food and such. With most of our money from 1st-2nd level, we'll grab a few potions of bless weapon, delay poison, lesser restoration; as well as a number of masterwork tools for our skills, banking most of it for 3rd level.

At 3rd level, we pick up Craft Wondrous Item and a masterwork tool (Spellcraft) and craft a CL 3rd cloak of resistance +1 (DC 13) for 500 gp, which gives us +1 to all of our saves (desperately needed). We'll upgrade this each time we can take 10 and reach the next +1 tier. At this point we'll begin prioritizing our crafting based on cost vs difficulty vs utility.

Stat buffing items are very expensive at these levels so ignore those in favor of things like boots of striding and springing, amulet of natural armor, items that grant large bonuses to different skills (a +5 skill item costs 1,250 gp to craft), and things like that. Elixirs (the ones granting +10 to a skill for 1 hour) are good fallbacks for when you've got nothing better to craft. If you have party members who cast spells, crafting them some pearls of power so they can cast staple buff spells would be ideal.

At 5th level, we grab craft magic arms and armor, so we can begin improving our own weaponry. We're going to actually make two sets of armor: our main armor, and our under layer. The under layer will be a +1 padded armor which we'll wear under our actual armor. The AC bonuses do not stack, but on this under layer, we will be adding special armor qualities like fortification to, since these aren't reliant on the armor's AC.

So push your AC on the outer layer, and special abilities on the inner layer. For example, the cost of a +3 breastplate and a +1 light fortification padded armor is cheaper than the cost of a +3 light fortification armor.

At 7th level, we'll pick up Craft Construct. This is so we can craft animated objects. Why would we want to craft animated objects? Because fighters have no other reliable means of acquiring a mount that can stay relevant to your level. Make the construct an intelligent magic item (adds +500 gp to the market price) with the purpose to serve you, and you'll have a nice loyal mount that you can improve as you gain levels. The mount will help with mobility and can help you in melee (and being a construct, it's got decent BAB progression, hardness, and is immune to a lot of bad stuff; its saves are ass though, so you'll need to make it a cloak just to be passable). You can also give the construct magical powers as time and money allow.

At 9th level, we grab Forge Ring, which we'll of course use for things like freedom of movement, feather falling, protection, and all those good things.

At 11th level, unless your GM has banned it, you'll grab a buff-b&#&& of some sort (cleric, wizard, or adept if your GM doesn't allow heroic classes). Mostly just to serve as your cheerleader and/or workshop helper. Past 11th level, not much else to the build.

Noteworthy Items and Tips
Ideal Weapons: Our end goal is to push bad effects. As a fighter, our to-hit and damage will never be as good as a real martial character (weapon training in core only reaches +4 at best), so we're going to want to go for some weapons with special abilities early.

Our ideal melee weapon would be a longspear with the life-drinker quality (identical to the greataxe version but on a spear). Once you have a reliable means of keeping death ward active (either by a buff-buddy or a custom magic item fashioned like boots of speed) because it allows you to be a threat to most enemies without having to match the damage of a Barbarian, Ranger, or Paladin.

We'll also want to create some cheapo-version luck blades (only a +1 enhancement and 0 wishes, which would set the blade's cost at 16,060 gp, or 8,030 to craft). The first luck blade is the most valuable to us (+1 to saves, re-roll 1/day). Additional luck blades are luxury items (for an additional 1/day re-roll). Since luck-blades need only be in your possession, you can just carry extras.

You'll also want at least one disrupting weapon, though it doesn't have to be especially powerful. Its purpose is just to force a 5% chance to destroy any undead you hit with it (and since you can hit a foe multiple times per round, it can surprise you).

Our ideal ranged weapon would be a +5 composite shortbow. Why a shortbow? Because you can use the bow while mounted. A supply of select magical arrows such as bane arrows can be good.

Multiple Magic Effects: One thing we're going to really be using to our fullest advantage on our fighter is the ability to add multiple effects for +50% to the cost of the cheaper effect. What this means is that as your level advances and more treasure comes your way, you're eventually going to start tacking cheap convenience effects onto your gear.

For example, adding the feather falling ring effect to your items, or including the effects of boots of striding on your armor or something, or making your cloak of minor displacement also a cloak of resistance.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
vadda wrote:
honestly we are not talking about ripping of the outsiders arms and legs and torturing him with spikes! Or spells like agonize. According to the guide I am refering to the relevant spells are 1. bestow curse, 2. touch of idiocy, 3. lesser gear (putting a coin beside the circle and tell command the outsider to get it) and 4. enervation.

Mostly because the guide stemmed from a lot of the things that I learned while dealing with a neutral to good aligned summoning character. It was intended to show that even if you're dealing with a creature that was hostile (a bound fiend that'd probably like to rip your noggin' off your shoulders and use it as a bowling ball) you could succeed without jumping to extreme lengths.

However, in the case of the evil caster, you can also be particularly mean and use things like reach weapons to beat the outsider into submission, bind them up really good, and really make the situation suck evermore worse for them.

Of course, planar binding doesn't have to be used for subjugation (it's just very good at it). You can simply use the spell to call an outsider (you don't even need a secure circle, though in traditional uses you'll want one). Nothing stops you from using social skills like Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate to try to get something to agree to your terms. That's assuming you specify any terms at all, or just make the term something harmless like "Act under your own free will and return when you are ready".

Oh, and thinking about it, Intimidate is another way to further bully an outsider into submission. It's a nonmagical way to apply a -2 penalty to those ability checks.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Oh, and again, the planar binding - once the contract is accepted - is binding. They cannot simply choose to disobey.

EDIT: And a fairly simple way to avoid the ghaele messing with your initial debuffing, you would just knock the ghaele unconscious in some way (use your imagination, though old fashioned damage is a tried and true method of rendering folks KO'd). At which point, you can dispel her aura and debuff at your leisure. Maybe even dimension door into the circle and tie her up (making it impossible for her to succeed at the Concentration checks to cast her spells).

Adding the step of beating the ghaele into unconsciousness for her to awake later to realize all her magical awesomeness is shut down just adds an extra layer to our evil sandwich.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Quote:

Yeah, that all works. Though summoning Tieflings whose names you aren't familiar with is also pretty dumb, since you get a random one of X HD or less...who is pretty likely to be a 1st level Commoner. And if they aren't, might have a way out of the Circle pretty readily. I know I wouldn't try and keep, say, a 12th level Wizard or Cleric in such a Circle...

Of course, if you know their name, that's another matter entirely.

Yep. It requires you to be specific but that didn't stop her from getting bound. :P


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Also, no, you can apply dimensional anchor to the magic circle. There is no way that a properly made circle can be escaped through the machinations of the trapped outsider.

EDIT: This is, in fact, what makes it such as useful story-generating tool for a GM, and one of the most compelling ways of using good-aligned outsiders as antagonists. It actually underlines the evil of the BBEG in big bold lines, because that's eeeevvvvviiiiiilllll. XD

EDIT 2: I just realized there is no underline tags. God, I forget how crappy this forum's formatting system is sometimes. >:(


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I've always took reasonable to mean something that is actually within the realm of reason and/or not obviously suicidal. Ergo, you couldn't provide them with an impossible task, or require them to commit suicide or something.

This would likewise fit with the lore that these abilities are based upon, such as King Solomon's magical ring, which he forced evil demons to build the temple of the divine god, against their will, for which they swore to harass his lineage forever. Or somesuch.

It's entirely reasonable that an angel could destroy a city. It's also something they would be vehemently opposed to and get the +6 to their check on.

As for the ghaele casting as a 13th level cleric, apply enough ability damage/penalties, or prevent the creature from having a suitable place to prepare spells (very easy to do) throws a monkey wrench into most of that.

The point is, you're a ****ing wizard. Make it happen. :P


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

That is right. I remember because I thought it was dumb that binding a good creature was a good act after a discussion on the boards.

Paladin: What is that creature with wings?

Good Sorcerer: It is an angel I just captured. I will hold him here until he decides to cooperate with us.

To reiterate: The spell to summon an angel is Good. The spell to keep it captive is Evil. So the magic all cancels out alignment-wise.

It's what you do with it that really counts. And kidnapping angels and 'holding them until they cooperate' definitely sounds Evil to me.

Magic circle vs Chaos or magic circle vs law will also work. Literally any circle other than magic circle against evil.

EDIT: This is also why any ol' circle will work for neutral-aligned outsiders like elementals. Elementals are also among the easiest outsiders to bind so they make pretty solid practice spirits.

EDIT 2: Also if you want to be a jerk (like me!), I'd like to point out that planetouched races like aasimar, tieflings, and so forth, as well as other outsiders (rakshasa, oni, etc) are totally legal targets for planar binding spells. This happened to my friend's tiefling in a game I was running where her tiefling got trapped in a magic circle and compelled to serve.

Also if you're even more of a jerk (like my NPCs), you might be like This Guy who breaks celestials for the lolz.

1 to 50 of 3,856 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>

©2002–2016 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.