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Most gamers I have meet at a table are the most nice people you could ever meet. In more than 20 years I have never even seen a case of a woman being harassed at any table. The problem I have seen the most is women coming over and making fun of the role players because that is seen as a nerd hobby and even that is very rare. But that is only my experience. I have never agreed with the whole gamers are sexist debate. Its getting kind off old.
You can try to kill your party, but here is what is going to happen. Unlike a MMO where you can PVP and gank to your hearts content, pathfinder is a face to face social experience. Even thou your in game actions might be justified by the roleplay and story, you are still going to be branded as someone that can not be trusted by those players. Even if you play saintly lawful good paladin, your in game actions will be never trusted again at that table.
Be prepared for the consequences if you decide to go thru with your plan. Someone is going to take it personal and the group chemistry might be affected permanently.
Killing random players in a game were PVP is not consensual is griefing. Only one makes the decision the other one acts in self defense. If the other player is engaged in other activities like gathering and actively trying to avoid you, then you are griefing. The fact that you are trying to rename it does not change that.
Kryzbyn thank you for showing the rest of the community an excellent example of forum griefing. I suppose your in game behavior is not going to be much different. You could have made a difference with a different tone. If the community cant police itself in the board then there is even less hope of it happening in game.
Disengaging from discussion.
While Captain Marsh makes some very good points. I don't think that what we are seeing is a schism in the Pathfinder community. What this game is causing, is a sudden influx of MMO fans. A lot of these people are going to be new to both Pathfinder and D&D. This is going to cause some friction since the typical MMO gamer has a very different mindset from a PnP player.
I am pretty sure that Paizo will do a good job serving both communities. Although I will admit that I am disappointed with the direction PFO is taking. In the end Paizo will do everythig to keep us PnP subscribers happy and GW will take of the MMO people.
Nothing wrong with the class from a rules perspective. To me its more that paladins tend to attract players who like to impose their will on a party. Also the fact that some people play lawful good as lawful stupid does not help.
It is annoying when the paladin is telling the party what to do based on his alignment. Its important for a DM to veto a paladin character if group composition and campaign tone is not favorable to the class.
A well played paladin is also one of the most fun characters to watch and I also have some very good memories of then. So to me, its not a rules or roleplaying issue. It is a player issue.
This game is not going to a fantasy MMO. This game is going to be a PVP survival fantasy MMO. Basically what the PVP people and the developers are saying is "If you dont want to get ganked then stay at home with the women and children". I have no problem with that since I would simply not play. But the developers should be clear about their intentions. I pledged in the original kickstarter and I already feel burned since it seems I wont be playing the game.
PVP people are always talking about the holy grail that is world PVP on message boards and how fun it is. Instead what you get in game, no matter the MMO is.
Level 9000 rogue in full stealth ganking a level 1 priest trying to gather herbs. This usually causes the poor player to scream "ITS OVER 9000!"
PVP guild that entertains itself raiding the low level zones or killing all the quest NPC's in a area.
Then there is always the guy that follows you around then suddenly turns on you when your health is half way down.
In 15 years of MMO experience from UO to EQ to WOW and now RIFT, I have never seen a single case of what I would call honorable PVP. I hope the game success. But its not looking to be the kind of game I would play. It looks like its going to be a hardcore PVP game with survival of the fittest in mind.
This games success will not depend on whether it is a sandbox MMO. It will depend on the community. I hope that those interested in making PFO a great experience for others will be the majority. I hope that there will be guilds that actually fight for justice in PFO. Band together because the CE players will work together to try to minimize the penalties for being Chaotic Evil. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just naive.
Dont let the griefers and those that are only interested in wealth dominate the game. And please don't let those people be the vocal majority on these boards. Those of you that get in early don't become elitist jerks to the newbies that join 2 or 3 years later. One of them could be me.
I hope that the game is a success for all backers. Disengaging from discussion.
I withdrew my kickstarter pledge due to threads like these. If the pro PVP community is going to be so hostile from the start, I don't even want to know how it is going to be in game.
Some of us just want to explore and craft. Maybe even kill a couple of goblins. If this game is going to be implemented as is, its going to be a griefers paradise. This game either needs consensual PVP or a separate PVE server. I am not paying to be someone else content. Sorry.
Except for Thrall who is one of the worst examples of a Mary Sue character, WOW has the alternative view of Orcs covered very well. Many other campaign settings use the orcs in many different ways. I am glad that in Golarion, the orc kind of takes a back seat. The Dragonlance campaign setting does not even have orcs. At least it did not in my days.
I think that Paizo should use the orc a little more. But I dont think that the character of the golarion orc should change at all. It is the golarion orc, not the wow orc. The wow orc is suppose to be a regular player race. So you see more variety of characters. The Golarion orc is a typical fantasy evil race, it has been for years before Orcs and Humans even existed and is more like Lord of the Ring, War Hammer and old D&D.
I have had players that have asked me to play orcs and the first thing that they do is scream FOR THE HORDE! It is quite annoying. Leave Golarion orcs as is but add one or two characters that are not typical for the race.
As others have said this is not normal and anything you do in game probably wont change anything. Talk to your DM. Thief's trying to steal your stuff should happen at the low levels depending on environment. And I say trying because in general you should be able to prevent it.
I think the reason for the restrictions is because traits are not suppose to be feats. They are something to give characters with a particular background extra flavor. If you remove the restrictions from all traits then you are basically giving the character 2 extra feats. I remove the restrictions on a case by case basis.
Depends on what you mean by intentional. When you are the DM you are going to kill characters. Now if by intentional you mean put a character in a situation that no mater what he does the character dies. Then that's a no go.
Now if the character goes in a town and provokes the local assassin guild then you got a plot. In these cases I usually give the character a least 3 ways out. A combat option and a couple of diplomacy option. The combat option usually involves a CR+3 to CR+5 opponent. Depending of the circumstances obviously.
I'm also a straight guy in a mostly catholic region. But the problem here is backwards from were gorbacz lives. The LGBT society has a much more easier time here. But if anybody sees you with a book with anything remotely looking like the devil that's a different matter.
Yesterday I went to my doctors appointment with my Rappan Athuck shirt on and I kept wondering my I was getting dirty looks from a person sitting in front of me. When the person started talking about how the devil hides in images I suddenly remembered about the Orcus in front of the shirt. I started laughing hard after that.
Not doing something you consider normal because you might offend someone is just another form of censorship. Now there is always the common sense clause. I would never put that shirt on for any serious occasion.
As Devils advocate says be prepared for deadlier monsters. Also a huge flaw to pathfinder is that it seem to cater more towards organized play. 3.5 relies more on the dungeon master to adjudicate. Monsters and encounters are not limited to CR 25. 3.5 lets you go beyond CR 25 but Pathfinder stops at CR 25.
Druids, Clerics and wizards are kings, but I don't mind it.
Both systems are great but not perfect. I run a sort of hybrid campaign for my players.
Good luck on your campaign.
The amount I have spent in my reef tank dwarfs what have spent on all my other hobbies combined. Desktop RPG's are cheaper and more accessible than ever. Especially if you don't live in the US. Back in the old day I could not even get the most basic rule book, not because I could not afford it but because I could not find it.
Nope. They are not rangers with favored enemies, paladins with smite or barbarians with rage either. But they ARE a combat class and as such should be expected to fight on a par with these other classes.
So are you saying that a monk should do as much damage as a paladin when smiting and a barbarian while raging? I have never seen the monk as a primary damage dealer. The top 3 in melee damage should always be barbarian raging, paladin smiting and the fighter. The monk is good as is. Unless the monk loses the 3 good saves there should not be an increase in its damage potential.
I would like that the old 3.5 gem dragons be included if you have not already. This book is going with its brothers in my bookshelf. Its going to be fun sitting down a weekend afternoon to read the AD&D, 3rd, 3.5 and pathfinder versions of psionics.
Now that I looked in the 3.0 and 3.5 Psionic books and failed to find the gem dragons, were those ever converted to 3rd edition? If not it would doubly awesome if they were included in the book.
Read my above post that obviously states that nobody is actually asking Paizo for anything. The fact is that the rule-set that you posted shows clearly, that it is you who is fixated on certain mechanics. Reading comprehension is essential in any discussion. I fail to see were anybody asked for your posted rule.
Perhaps because Paizo can only put out so many books a year, and therefore the notion of "wasting" a slot on such a book sticks in a given poster's craw?
Nobody in this thread is asking Paizo for a mature book. What we do want is for other publishers to be able to do so without the morality police going up in arms about it. I also don't want a repeat of what happened to TSR when all mention of demons and devils were removed because of a very active and vocal minority. Sex after all is not the only type of mature content.
Now if for some crazy reason Paizo does decide to do a "Ultimate Adult Content" I am ready to preorder. But don't worry its not going to happen so Paizo is not going to waste one off your precious slots.
I don't really think that the BOEF fixated to much on mechanics. The tables that it did have did not have any explicit descriptions. They just limited themselves to mundane descriptions. (Routine performance, Great performance, ect.) Most of the mechanics were in spells, classes and feats. The subject matter itself just had 4 tables with some pretty tame descriptions.
Chapter 1 - Love, Sex & Role playing is almost entirely fluff. Same with Chapter 6 - Gods and monsters (Half the chapter is deity descriptions)and Chapter 7 - Adventures and Organizations also mostly fluff.
Anyone who has read the book knows that if anything the book take on the subject is very serious and mature. A little too serious.
Now if you just picked up the book and started to browse its pages, the book might give the impression that it is somewhat immature because of the Art. The art is the low point of the book and causes a lot of people to put the book down.
Nymphology is the exact opposite of BOEF. The book was not meant to be taken seriously and you should steer away if you are easily offended.
Paizo does not play edition wars. Just don't even get close to doing it on the boards, they don't like it.
After reading the original post like 5 times, I still fail to find anything remotely close to an edition war comment by the OP. You might want to calm down a little.
As for the topic.
This I like about Paizo.
1. Loyal to customers.
I find it funny that some people don't like certain elements in a fantasy game cause it feels too modern or sci-fi. Yet they expect a magic item walmart within a days ride. At least Golarion has Absalon and Katapesh witch allows you to accommodate these players up to a point. But in a game set in Ravenloft of Darksun you get what you get.
I blame MMO's for the gotta fill every slot with a +5 item mentality. I tend to be a generous GM up to a point. Some items, wands and weapons I assume they are always in stock. (Example - Wand cure light wounds, +1,+2 items) But anything above +3 or equivalent I make sure that they earn it or are very rare. I don't believe in the wealth by level rules and adjust all encounters according to my players abilities. If players think that they can get anything they want eventually, then it cheapens one of the most important aspect's of the game. The excitement of finding a really cool item.
Well to each thier own and that's cool! I suppose that, for me, it is better to keep the "Mature" stuff in the background and leave it that [Valeros: "So I have brought the wench back with me to my room. I roll my Diplomacy to see if I can conveince her to stay the night (Valeros' player rolls a "Natural 20") GM: Well Valeros has convinced the serving wench to stay the night with him and the two of you spend the night 'doing what couples do'. Ezren, What is your character doing?"
Devious GM rolls for a pregnancy check in the background. Assuming this happens at level 2, the GM waits until Valeros is level 12 in the campaign or until a more appropriate time(as long as 9 months have passed in game). The GM springs the so called wench as a fully fleshed out NPC with back story on the poor Valeros.
The possibilities are limitless. She wants the father to meet the baby, or use the baby to extort the PC. Or maybe even BBEG kidnaps the baby. Any group that enjoys the role play aspect of the game will jump on it due to the potential drama and tension. All while keeping the explicit parts in the background.
The way I see Golarion is as a world with many different campaigns embedded within it. If you want to make a Gothic horror campaign you would set it in Ustalav. Or to use one of your examples if you want to live in a bloody revolution it would be in Galt. Of course the revolution is unrealistically long. Its meant to end when you the GM decides it ends. Golarion is not a realistic world in any way but it is by far the most fun sandbox I have ever seen. I am pretty sure that was the intention.
If you want realism I recommend Kindoms of Kalamar. The authors had a attention to detail that was almost unreal. I believe they even made the climates realistic. But I almost found that realism boring. I had to read the books several times before I began to appreciate it. In contrast when I got the Pathfinder campaign book every kingdom made me exited.
I am glad that Golarion is not a simulated realistic world. It is after all fantasy.
If anything I will probably spend more. I'm still missing Beholders, Giants and many monsters. And I will definitely get that Cthulhu that got added at the end, so I am awaiting the link so I can get more addons.
I wish there was a colossal green. And If they ever make a colossal Tiamat I don't care what it cost ill get it. I do hope their Bones line concentrates on monsters, heroes and such are well represent in their metal minis.
I also dislike time travel in fantasy rpg. Also ultra powerful good guys that get saved by their goddess and sleeps with anything remotely female. Now ultra powerful bad guys I don't mind since the heroes will need someone to keep them in check. Besides that I don't mind guns, psionics and any other things that come up as long as it is in a coherent campaign world.