Aaron Shanks wrote:
:( Do we have an idea on when the errata will be incorporated into any version of this? I know the obvious answer is "in subsequent print runs," but that is nebulously vague. I would buy a second copy, but only if it incapsulates those changes.
I don't know which of these announcements I'm more excited about, the reduction in AcP cost for those three Ancestries, or the new Backgrounds! I'm loving that these new Uncommon Backgrounds are tied to Season 3 events and storylines, and hope that we will see more adventures from those Venture-Captains/lodges/allies in the future, making that "kicker bonus" more worthwhile in Season 4 and many more to come!
zeonsghost wrote:
Considering that the first I heard of this was from a university student who isnt a gamer, I think it is naive to think only Paizo customers are concerned about this. It was a point of discussion in a class about publishing.
keftiu wrote: I also do think there’s a slim chance it’s a genre book, rather than a setting element, because I can see a horror supplement with Inquisitor (for monster-hunting) and Occultist (for delving into terrible secrets) as the new classes. While everyone else is clamoring for another themed book, I still have high hopes that we will finally see a comprehensive source book for the Tian Xi region, complete with a 2E archetype for the Kensai, Samurai, Ninja, and Wujen. The success of the Mwangi Expanse hardcover further bolstered that hope. I doubt this is going to be that book though.
I'm liking all of these changes. I just wish we would see a similar AcP pricing change for Tengu. According to canon, they are found pretty much throughout Golarion. To me, that justifies (at the very least) a reduction. With the success of the Mwangi Expanse book, my hopes are raised that we will finally see a comprehensive Tian-Xi campaign setting... and the return of the Wayang and Nagaji, since Kitsune have already been covered in The Lost Omens Ancestry Guide!
As the father of one child with high-functioning autism and another with oppositional-defiance disorder, I can attest to the positive impact a tabletop roleplaying game can have for someone with neurodiversity. Both of my children have benefited from playing Pathfinder, learning how to communicate with others acceptably, as well as other social cues that are often far more difficult for those within the spectrum. Thank you for letting me know that there is an organization dedicated to utilizing tabletop games to help others find acceptance within our greater community!
HammerJack wrote:
I think it is fair to decide that Archis is Undetected, having taken time to conceal himself. In that case, the actions would be 1) trigger the trap, 2) drink the potion, and then 3) move.
H2Osw wrote:
The Onboarding Taskforce has been working on making tools for helping track your character's XP, Reputation and spending. You can find those here. https://www.orgplayfoundation.org/join/new-players-pop/ We are always looking at ways to make these tools more efficient and clear, so all of us will be watching feedback from those who use them. Feel free to post here with any such feedback!
James Case wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, only five of the 25 scenarios in Season 1 are repeatable, and only two of the Quests (which are now no longer being developed). How is that "relying heavily" on repeatables? If anything, I think Paizo jumped the gun on rolling out Level 5-9 scenarios, considering "this is a new system." With the loss of the Quest format, I hope that we see MORE repeatables, especially in Level 1-4... since this is a new system and will still draw new players.
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
The goal is to have easy to print pdf versions of the Guide not long after the changes are made. In the meantime, the facelift to the sight should make it far easier to search, a problem that has plagued the present website. I keep pushing for a printable copy... and I'm not gonna let up until we have one!
With PF1, I tended to let my characters grow organically. For example, my favorite character is a mutt: Barbarian 4/ Rogue 4/ Ranger 4. He started conceptually as the bastard son of a Ulfen Guard and his "salt wife," left behind in Absalom when his father returned to the Land of the Linnorm Kings. He developed anger issues at an early age (barbarian), but was taken in by a Venture Captain who saw his potential. Later in his career as a Pathfinder, he discovered he was consistently sent on missions were a rogue would have been helpful... without a rogue. He went back to the lodge and begged someone to train him in those skills (rogue). Many years later, he suffered badly from the attacks of undead on two consecutive missions. He returned to the lodge, asking for training in how to battle the undead (ranger). In PF2, it is harder to mix-n-match classes like you could in PF1. So instead, my characters are thematically "legacy characters' related to my PF1 characters.
With Quests available for PF2, I'm surprised that Slow Advancement even exists. Then again, the latest news about the replacement of "Quests" for "Bounties" might mean we need that option. I am still hoping that the Bounty format will expand beyond just tier 1 eventually. I think limiting it to one level is short-sighted. Time will tell.
*Straight out jaw drop* That is the best news I've heard since the release of 2E! I was... not a fan of Goblins becoming a Core race. I felt it was a hard transition from the "burn everything/murder midgets" of past canon to them being a semi-civilized race. I campaigned early on for Kobolds to be that new race instead, citing how they have had positive interactions with other races in known history (the Sewer Dragons being among them). Alas, Goblins won out... and as the unofficial mascot of Paizo, I understood. I fully expected Kobolds to be released as a playable race, but I also figured we would have to earn that right, much like we will for those found in other source books. I am pleasantly surprised! This is a GREAT move!
Ferious Thune wrote: The one downside to the current quests from a player/GM perspective has been that many of them tend to seem to run closer to 2 hours than to 1, and I can see that being more of an issue were even higher level ones to be written. I am glad I am not the only who has seen this trend. I was beginning to think I was GMing them wrong since no one else had addressed this. Ferious Thune wrote: I think I'd hope and prefer that maybe Bounties be targeted at a single tier instead of a single level. That would save the development time for having two different tiers and adjustments, but also give some flexibility for the scheduling. But I can't imagine that wasn't discussed. THIS. Limiting it to Level 1 means there isn't really any need for them to be repeatable. Players will play through them once, maybe twice, but they since they cannot be played again with the same character, their use becomes limited. And honestly, once a player has experienced all the options involved, it becomes a moot point anyways. The "farming" of scenarios was part of what killed 5E Adventurer's League locally; the modules being endlessly replayable meant some players would just use them as grind quests to jump to 2nd level. Some players like to devote play to one character at a time. The current Quest format gives them an option while awaiting the next scenario to play. And while I can understand making a decision to never develop scenarios after a certain CR (for example, 5th level where the last pregens are set), I think limiting this to a just level 1 might be short-sighted. Luckily, we have seen LOTS of changes in this first season, with the format and presentation of scenarios evolving as time passes. I'm sure this will be no different.
I'll post here what I did on Facebook when Know Direction announced this: "My biggest question for Paizo's Beginner's Box products has always been "Why the delay?" It seems like a product like this could really help skyrocket the sales of the line, especially at the beginning of that product line. Personally, the long delay for the Starfinder Beginner's Box made me less inclined to buy it... and without it, I was less invested in the Starfinder RPG altogether. Products like these are the gateway drug for tabletop RPGs; they should be at the forefront of the line!"
Just purchased these from my FLGS and I am impressed with the final look of these. My initial fear was that these would end up replacing the Bestiary hardcovers. It is far easier and cheaper to produce cards than a book, with the most expensive part of such a product being the box. But having seen these in action, I can see that these serve a far different purpose... and the possibilities for this format are endless. Thoughts on the Bestiary cards (and future iterations): 1) As has been mentioned, the box isn't exactly functional outside of storage. While it holds the cards just fine, it doesn't work well for use at the game table as functionally. In most cases however, a GM would only be using a handful of cards at a time, so I doubt this will make much of an impact at the game table. 2) I appreciate WHY Paizo has yet to release these as a pdf product; it would be far too easy for these to be bought and perpetually printed. Pirating of product is always a problem to consider and keeping this print only helps reduce that possibility. That said, I can also appreciate the desire for such a pdf product. As a PFS GM, I would love to be able to print these out and insert them into a prep envelope for each scenario, which leads to... 3) A lot of PFS scenarios use custom creatures and NPCs. It would be nice to see a similar format embraced for statblocks in PFS scenarios, making it possible for GMs to print out adversaries in a card form. While the PFS versions would have to be far more "print friendly," I can see this as a potential tool added to our arsenal of awesomeness. And finally... 4) My only disappointment in the cards was those that took more than one card to impart the information. In the last 5+ years, Wiz Kids learned how to address this by creating over-sized cards for those HeroClix miniatures that required more space for the information. Perhaps a similar format can be addressed for future versions of Bestiary cards, with any such entries using one 6 X 8 card with an indent to make it easier to fold and fit into the box. In short, I like the bestiary cards and see the potential for future iterations. Thank you for a brilliant product.
Gorbacz wrote:
LOL! I'm not saying there isn't a market for a product like this; a similar product exists for the World's Oldest RPG. However, the price point for this compared to the Bestiary containing the same information gives me pause on purchasing them myself, especially having already bought the Bestiary. My fear is that this product WILL prove popular... and will become the preferred method of producing all future Bestiary. After all, it is far cheaper to produce cards then it is a hardcover book. I seem to recall a developer once commenting about the PACG that the box cost more to print and create than the cards it contained. While I'd never hope for the failure of a product line, I can hope that producing Bestiary cards doesn't supplant Bestiary hardcovers.
The King In Yellow wrote:
Agreed. Radio silence does more harm than good.
All of this is really good news to hear! I have high hopes that the AcP reporting gets finished so that those items dependent on it for sanctioning can roll out ASAP. My players are clamoring for the sanctioning of the Lost Omens content from both the World Guide and the Character Creation Guide, so this is welcome news indeed.
Michael Sayre wrote:
Does Paizo still send out emails when products have been updated? Those were a helpful metric for noting when things have been fixed.
Tonya Woldridge wrote: ...answered about the difficulties the OPF/Paizo separation has created in broad strokes... I, for one, would much prefer the pdf of the Guide revert back to being produced by Paizo. While the website is fine, it is hardly intuitive to peruse, and is significantly difficult to search through. It was a good stop-gate answer at the time, but it needs to come back to Paizo for a couple of reasons. 1) Official Production: The PFS Guide being produced by Paizo makes it feels more "official." While I appreciate the hard work that some of the VOs have put into creating a printable version, it is still rife with errors and artifacts of having been lifted from the website. These are errors that would (hopefully) not exist in an official pdf version, having gone through an extensive developer overlook before passing. Most importantly though, it lacks the style and feel of Paizo products. This has the effect of... 2) Professional Presentation: The Guide is the first look at PFS that some players get. They don't buy scenarios. If they are solely players, they have no need for the Bestiary. And with the delay of sanctioning of the Lost Omens line, they have no burning need to purchase other 2nd Edition products either. The Core Rulebook is really all they need. Again, a lot of hard work has been put into creating a printable version, but (for legal reasons) it lacks the design qualities we have grown to expect from the PFS Guides previous. Because of that, it looks... cheap (no offense meant) by comparison. I understand that the workforce on PFS has been hit hard, and the lose of your webmaster has hurt as well. Because of this, I can see that producing a pdf wasn't as much of a priority as just getting the info out. If possible, this needs to be addressed as the team rebuilds and regrows. Having a link at the OPF website is fine (it's working for PF1 and Starfinder!), but ultimately, I'd like to see an "official" Guide... and have it hosted by Paizo once again.
I've GMed this twice. In one session, the players tried to use Stealth to steal the statue which would have avoided the trials and combat if successful. In the second session, the players immediately attacked once the statue was presented during the trials. The first could have been fixed by having an acolyte standing guard outside of the training. Since the statue is stolen, it would have made sense. In the second situation, that would have been avoided entirely if a different statue or item had been used. Dragging out the stolen item blatantly kind of lends itself to "ATTACK!" and there isn't enough acolytes to make it challenging once it happens. This being early in with the ink on the rules still almost wet, I can see how these potential situations could have been missed in development. EVERYONE (players, GMs, and even authors!) are still learning. I have faith that scenarios and quests will see more logical development as more experience is tucked into their belts. If anything, the only disappointing thing about the scenario is that my PC Monk cannot learn Blazing Talon Surge or Explosive Deathdrop! Maybe that will see light in a future product!
Thod wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
This actually sounds like a fair compromise. It fulfills the need for new sanctioned content without having to wait on the initiation of the AcP. Like others have reported, the PF2 is slowly losing steam. Not because they have exhausted scenarios or the options of the new CRB, but because some of the options in the Lost Omens sources are so damn GOOD! Players are used to having their toys and are spoiled by the previous iteration of PFS. Throw us a bone. As I've been saying for months: help US help YOU!
Dragnmoon wrote:
On the surface, this is accurate. The new format pricing is comparable to the previous pricing standard for pdfs. And the newer format is a comparable discount... if a customer was purchasing every Companion and Campaign Setting book previously. That assumption is flawed. It assumes quite a bit on the purchasing habits outside of those direct subscribers to Paizo. The truth is that most players and GMs chose what to purchase based on their needs. Yes, a PFS player might need two or three sources to create their character... but they always have the option of 1) choosing otherwise, or 2) buying those sources piecemeal as needed. That is no longer the case. The new line is the only option for legitimate source material for PFS players. They have one option and it is the quarterly hardcover Lost Omens line. Again, I’m no longer arguing about the pricing anymore: Paizo representatives have explained why the pricing changed and why the digital product price changed as well. I am, however, questioning whether the merging of the two lines is a good idea.
Steve Geddes wrote:
While not a bad suggestion, PFS doesn’t presently have anything like this. The best a player can hope for is a $10 voucher from attending a sponsored event at a convention. Even then, it’s a matter of odds.
Donovan Du Bois wrote: ... a lot of relevant things articulately... I feel your pain, my friend. This subject has been discussed in another thread HERE with varying levels of success and far more vitriol. Quite a few of the PFS player base in my region have decided to not purchase the Lost Omens World Guide based on what they perceive as a "poor price for value." Regardless of whether the merging of the two lines will save money in the long run (which is up for debate), they have expressed their opinions that this merging takes away some degree of agency in their purchases. Before, a person who was merely a player could choose the Companion line, and even avoid those issues they felt they would never use. Likewise, A GM could purchase only those Campaign Setting books pertinent to the game they were running. Now, we have an "all or nothing" option, one that comes quarterly for the foreseeable future (as Vic Wertz has confirmed) that encompasses both lines. To be completely fair, most of my players were more distressed by the pdf price, which we now know is based off of a percentage of the cover price. They rely on digital product, since it is more convenient for portable play, such as conventions and game days. It is a product that only Paizo benefits from the sale of; no one else had authority or access to sell Pathfinder or Starfinder pdfs. I've expressed multiple times the opinions of my constituents. Many people at Paizo have responded (notably Sara Marie, Michael Sayre, and Vic Wertz) with insight into the industry in general and the process of pricing in particular. While I have no idea how wide-spread the decisions Paizo has made will impact Pathfinder Society play worldwide, I can share how it has impacted the microcosm of my own region. Some are willing to give Paizo benefit of the doubt. But far more are expressing content with just continuing playing PFS with Pathfinder 1st Edition until they run out of material.
Wow! I leave this thread for a few days and it explodes! I'm not going to argue that the print price of this book is too high; I concede that I do not know enough about the overall cost of producing a book such as this to make that judgment call. As others have pointed out, the cost for the pdf of this book is set by a (rough) consistent percentage of the actual cost of a physical copy. I've given other industry comparisons, and admit unarguably that Paizo cannot compete in same price range with 5E Dungeons & Dragons, simply because Hasbro can afford to take the hit in much that same way that Walmart does: they can spread the lose to other departments if necessary. Paizo is a much smaller company. They are the #2 tabletop RPG publishing company in the world presently, but the gap between them and the #1 RPG publisher is fairly huge... and they have years of branding to help them. In short, I'm not going to tip my lance at this particular windmill anymore. Yes, in the publishing industry the terms "sold out" can consider a number of factors. The largest one that creates a false impression of popularity/scarcity is "purposely underprinting." The comics industry does this a lot, especially after the devastating effect of "overprinting" in the 90's.I have enough faith in Paizo however to believe they wouldn't resort to such a tactic. Because of this, I give congratulations to you on selling out on this newest of tomes! You have earned it! I do implore Paizo to take a look at the effect this could have on the organized play community, a community that is required to own the appropriate source material to use options provided. I also ask that they stay committed to their announced printing schedule of "one per quarter" to help belay the lose of the easily affordable Companion line. As I've said before, I don't know what the solution is. I've just reported the problem, that perceived problem being that the pdf price seems comparatively too high to my local/regional player base. It is up to Paizo to find that balance that pleases their digital customers and their own financial needs. Of note: I noticed that the 5E D&D Starter box comes with a unique coupon code that gives a discount on buying the digital Player's Handbook. Could something like this be considered, a discount given for purchasing a physical copy? Just a thought.
Steve Geddes wrote:
In the past, GMs and VOs could keep up with the amount of content through two methods: 1) cherrypicking, or 2) the extremely affordable nature of the pdfs. In the first, it came down to content. If you never run a scenario in Kaer Maga, there is little need to purchase the Campaign Setting book detailing it. And on the rare chance you do, you can either purchase that sourcebook (in either physical or digital form) or do a web search and see whaat information you find. The latter might produce a workable knowledge of the region, but purchasing the sourcebook allows the GM in inject a little more detail, scoured from the pages of Paizo’s impressive writing. In the second method, a GM/VO can have an much more portable copy of the exact source material at their finger tips, trading in pounds of pages for a far more accessible digital format. When it came to soft-bound books, sometimes having that physical copy made sense. I mean, how often is Kaer Maga going to come up? And besides, it supports Paizo. With the hardcovers however, portability is king. Looking to my right, I have over 25 tomes of Pathfinder rules; it would be ridiculous to think I would haul all of those to a convention or game day, just to insure I have every possible source for every possible mechanic that might show up at my table. Yes, the burden of that is on the players to present—far too often, they are relying on HeroLab or Archives of Nethys, places where shorthand for those mechanics leave a lot to be interpreted by the reader. Honestly, the cost of the hardcovers isn’t the big issue to my constituents: It’s the cost of the pdfs. And since the cost of the pdfs is directly derived from the print cost, it becomes an issue only because of that impact. Vic Wertz is right to point out that printing costs and volume have impact on deciding that final price as well. While Paizo has a educated guest as to their target sales projections and potential audience, every print run is a risk. My players have let me know they aren’t sure this new price model is for them. I’m only presenting the perspective brought to me because I don’t want Paizo to fail. Again, I appreciate everyone who has been civil in this conversation, asking questions of viewpoints they don’t understand without passing judgement first. I also appreciate the responses from Mr. Wertz who has takenthe time to address this issue within this thread.. I hope that he understands that we both want the best for Paizo: continued success!
As an aside, I just visited my local gaming store and did some comparisons of other products from industry competitors. Troll Lords Games
From WotC:
The Lost Omen’s World Guide falls in comparison more with the books that WotC produces than those of other companies, having full color art and hardcover print runs. And yes, I’ve stated previously that Hasbro has the money to take a lose on the D&D brand while practically printing money with the cardboard crack that is Magic: the Gathering. But nether of them are coming close to the $.25 per page that Paizo is asking for each entry in the Lost Omens line. If the goal is to stay within reasonable reach of their competitors, then an adjusted price point would better reflect that.
Sara Marie wrote:
Thank you for your response, Sara Marie.I appreciate the insight. I can certainly see how Paizo's pricing can have an impact on the industry as a whole. Certainly, WotC's pricing for similar products influences Paizo's decisions as well. This is understandable. Of the three points made, I can accept your answers on all but one and that is the first one. Right now, Pathfinder Second Edition is still new. Initially, players and GMs alike will be filled with excitement for the products as they release. without consideration for cost to content ratio. As the line matures, there will be far more scrutiny toward products and their perceived value. Quite simply put, there will be product to make comparisons with, an issue that doesn't exist in a void. As you pointed out, Pathfinder Society requires the ownership of those products for any mechanic they want to apply to their characters. With the dismantling of purchasing options (in this case, the Companion and Campaign Setting line) in favor of one option (the Lost Omens Campaign Setting line), players aren't allowed any option at all... except either to purchase what is offered or not. I've already made clear how my constituents feel about the present pdf pricing in regards to Pathfinder Society.In fact, one of them responded above with what he felt would have been a fair and acceptable pricing, since they are required for play. Even more so for our many volunteers who are not granted access to these products a easily as long-term volunteers such as myself; many Venture Lieutenants and Venture Agents feel compelled to purchase products to stay "up to date." While the requirement puts the onus of providing proof of game mechanics onto the player, a large majority of the VOs like to understand these in advance of being blind-sided with the latest feat, equipment or archetype at their table. Perhaps even more so than your average casual player, these VOs are the target audience for those pdfs. Admittedly, this pricing decision impacts my region directly; I've not gathered enough information from other regions to discover if I stand alone. Perhaps a poll taken by other volunteers will provide the necessary data to see if this impact is more wide spread. I can only speak for me and mine. All I can ask at this time is for Paizo to take this information given and reconsider for future releases. Thank all of you (Vic Wertz, Michael Sayre, and Sara Marie) for taking time to participate in this discussion. I hope this polite conversation continues.
Vic Wertz wrote:
Thank you as well, Mr. Wertz, for taking time to respond. I appreciate that comment of commitment to the quarterly schedule model of sales for the foreseeable future. Please understand that my perspective comes from a place of well-meaning concern. I want Paizo to succeed. And I am seriously impressed with what Jason, Michael, and the others have developed with Pathfinder Second Edition. I’d like to see Paizo continue in it’s success for ANOTHER decade or more! Unlike WotC, Pathfinder can’t hide behind the money of a big parent company, taking a lose in one line such as the D&D brand while raking in the profits from Magic: the Gathering. It’s David to their Goliath... and I always root for the underdog. Standing up to Goliath in this case means listening to your customer base, in much the same as I am to my player base. And the core of my player base are Pathfinder Society Players who are rightfully concerned about the pdf pricing of this new line. This is something that only Paizo can address and an issue that can not be addressed if no one expresses that concern. I am reminded of one of the pieces of advice I give my children: If you never ask, the answer is always “No.”
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