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 Recent Posts
Erik Mona wrote: "I have a great deal of confidence that as we move forward little screw-ups like this will become less and less common." And that's all I really wanted to hear. I apologize if I seemed snippy in my previous post and want to reiterare my comments about my general happiness with the Dungeon product. Thank you for your thoughtful and eloquent response, Mr. Mona, and I also hope that I find Sean's adventure next month to be more to my liking. o
Uh, what? I feel like I'm becoming the great big jerk of these boards, but this is something else I can't let pass. After all the posts about this adventure, I was kind of looking forward to some kind of response from the staff. Specifically, I was expecting some sort of acknowledgement of the errors in the adventure and some assurance that this was an isolated event (which is all it would take to make me happy). Instead, we get the editor telling us that the adventure's just fine IF you have twice as many characters as the adventure was writtne for AND one of them is an evil cleric (which I know many people don't allow in their campaigns). I guess I had unrealistic expectations about Dungeon editors' desires to placate their customers. I guess I'm done with Dungeon. o
As I said before, my original goal for this thread was not to point fingers but to inform the writers and editors that we as customers are paying attention to the details of their product and would like them to do the same. There is nothing anyone at Dungeon can do to fix 3FoE at this point (I am not likely to buy any hardcover edition in addition to the magazines), so I'm hoping to see some improvement in the future. That said, I agree with Phil that the only thing that WE can do at this points (besides whining) is suggest some changes to make the adventures as useful and entertaining as (I assume) everyone at Dungeon wanted it to be in the first place. And this seems like the appropriate forum to make these suggestions, so how 'bout it? I also agree with KnightErrant that the adventure is not a TOTAL waste. It is a conclusion to Whispering Cairn, finishing up some plot elements, and there is nothing inherently wrong with a dungeon crawl, if it is done right. So, let's not toss out the whole thing, but instead see if we can modify some bits ... My initial suggestions would be to ...
Those are just some of my initial thoughts, please feel free to contribute the creativity that I have seen floating out there on other threads. o
It occurred to me that it really doesn't matter what color the lanterns are. Since the mural in the previous room displays all the lanterns, they could really be any colors in the world and the PCs will be able to figure out what order they go in and bypass the trap. personally, i think the ROYGBIV traps are overdone and a little cheesy, so i plan to just change the colors to whatever i pull out of my crayon box. o
Wow, I never would have noticed those. Someones got a whole lot of time on there hands. Just remember, your the DM, you decide what to do so you can take out some of the encounters, mistakes, lessen the guards, or write your own adventure that fits in the Adventure Path. DMs have TOTAL control over the adventure. well, duh. i didn't really get into how to FIX all the little mistakes because i am well aware that each dm out there is going to handle the errors in his/her own way. pointing out the truism that "your [sic] the DM" doesn't in any way lessen the fact that i paid for a crappy product. o ps yes, i DID read the adventure more than once, but these mistakes are not hard to catch if you are thinking about how your players are going to handle these situations as you read. hoping to help other DMs who might not have caught the errors was part of my motivation in posting the mistakes in the first place.
Frankly I think everyone should cut them a bit off slack. They are probably as disappointed by the errors in the adventure as everyone else. Another complaint: I am a little tired of all the cheerleading that goes on for the editors on these boards. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE Dungeon. I think it's a wonderful tool for times when I am feeling a little less inspired or don't have time to write my own adventure. I really like the concept of the Adventure Path, and I feel that, overall, they do a darn good job providing interesting, useful adventures (The Mad God's Key, which I've seen mentioned by a few others, is a great example). Which is why I am so disappointed by 3FoE. If the writers and editors were making me a value meal at McDonalds (also about a $7 investment) and screwed up as often as they did in this adventure, providing me a burger with onions and no mustard, with diet coke instead of coke, and day old french fries, I'd be just as upset. In fact, I'd demand that McDonalds provide me with a new burger, fries, and soda. And no one out there would say, "Hey, why don't you cut them some slack? It's lunch-time, and they're busy." My point: the staff at Dungeon gets paid to produce an excellent product. I give them my hard-earned money for said product (in fact, i shelled out my $7 for this one adventure alone, since I will never use the other 2). When said product stinks, I have a right (perhaps even a duty) to express my disappointment, not simply for the sake of whining, but so the staff can see very clearly where they made mistakes and can fix them. I agree that comments like, "This adventure sucks," with no further information, are useless. In real life, I'm really a very friendly guy, but right now I don't feel like cutting Dungeon any "slack." o
Let me start by saying that I was really impressed with The Whispering Cairn and planned to run the Age of Worms adventure path based on what appeared to be a really interesting and well-though-out adventure. The Three Faces of Evil, however, I found extremely disappointing for a variety of reasons which I will elaborate below. I am writing this not simply to complain but in the hopes that the writers of future Age of Worms adventures are reading (Sean K., this means you) and will put a bit more effort and thought into their work than has been presented in 3FoE. Ok, here is a non-exhaustive list of my issues with the adventure: -=* SPOILERS *=- 1) Motivation. It appears that there is an assumption here that the PCs will want to follow up on the green worm from The Whispering Cairn (hope the PCs found it and gave it to Allustan to decipher). There is about half a page of discussion about what a bad guy Balabar Smenk is and then no real reason why the PCs would want to do anything that he suggests. "Roleplay him as all the more annoying, arrogant, and grating..." (p. 20). Oh, yeah, cause we all know how eager players are to work with the really obnoxious NPCs. 2) The Mine. Sometime between The Whispering Cairn and 3FoE, the Dourstone Mine turns into a veritable fortress, complete with stockade (which appears to have a 400' perimeter) and a watchtower (!). Ragnolin has 2/3 as many guards as the Free City Garrison! Presumably, not every mine in Diamond Lake has as strong a defense force, or more than 10% of the town's residents would be guards. Therefore, this copper?/iron? mine sticks out like a sore thumb. This is hardly the best way to keep a SECRET cult secret. I'd also like to mention the dozen dwarves that suddenly appeared, when a mere handful lived in Diamond Lake in WC. Finally, we are told that Ragnolin would rather pay a few guards to keep the workers in line, but none of the guards are guarding the workers. They're all out patrolling the estate. 3) The Elevator. First, why is this area boarded up (DC 18 Strength check) if cultists pass through here twice every day (to join the guards)? Secondly, if the winch mechanism is ON the elevator, then all the cultists are trapped below during the day when the human cultists have presumably left the elevator at the top of the shaft, and no one (including PCs) can descend at night (when the assault seems most likely). This is okay from a realism point, but grinds the game to a halt. 4) Errors. Some of these have been mentioned previously in other threads (commoners with proficiencies in 2 weapons, curtain instead of door to Theldrick's room, missing cultist quantity, etc.), but their proliferation is astounding. Some examples: Garras, Kendra, and Theldrick all wield heavy flails (2-handed weapons) while wearing shields; we are never told what the book on G&K's table is; grimlocks are not proficient with shields (i'll grant them morningstars); the grimlock barbarian's knives are described as "dull, rusty" and her armor is "battered," but it turns out they are masterwork daggers (complete with +1 to hit) and +1 studded leather armor (and how the heck did she preserve the drow head?); the grimlock chieftain's damage with the greataxe should be 1d12+9 when he is raging; the acolytes of Vecna cast message to warn the Faceless One, but they don't even have that spell in their grimoires, let alone memorized; twice grimlocks are said to use their longspears to hold off PCs, but they don't HAVE longspears; and so on. 5) Darkness. I understand the desire to make the dungeon creepy and play to the monsters' strengths, but not everyone can wander around in utter darkness just to tick off the PCs. Dire weasels, for example, don't have darkvision. I can't imagine how they wander around that maze in the dark. Further, I imagine the kenku need at least a candle to see in the secret passages (where the PCs' torches don't shine). 6) Kamikaze bad guys. EVERYONE in this adventure fights to the death (except for the guards topside). This seems like a copout. The theory being that the writer didn't have enough space, time, or energy to create personalities for the named NPCs, so they never speak and just keep swinging till they're dead. That's 5th-grade D&D. Even the set-up for some encounters: "The grimlocks are under strict orders to never disturb Grallak. Thus, the guards assume that intruders are at hand if anyone approaches" (p. 37). REALLY? None of the grimlocks EVER have to talk to Grallak? How does he get food? So anytime anyone approaches, Grallak's 3 guards stab first, ask questions later. This seems lazy. Like all the writer wants is a big, long fight scene. Which brings me to the last point ... 7) One Big, Long Fight Scene. This "adventure" is just that. Not only is it all dungeon crawl, with a brief nod to "infiltration" through a dozen guards, but almost every single room is loaded with badguys. Many of them are unnecessarily redundant or confusing (chokers? why?) with no real way to get past them without an unavoidable battle (to the death) everytime. Again, this reminds me of the dungeons I used to draw when I first started playing D&D 20 years ago: full of unavoidable battles with no interaction or story (in short, no ROLE-PLAYING). This whole adventure is a miniatures game, essentially. Whew. Sorry about the length of this post, but these things have really been bothering me, and I hope that those in power take a look at what their readers have to say and think about the product we're shelling out good $ for. o
To clarify, I believe the remark above refers to the fact that a surprise round allows only a partial action. Thus, the kenku can ready an action, but it's largely unnecessary because, assuming the PCs are lumbering around in armor with torches, the Kenku will almost certainly surprise them. The kenku then get a free partial action (the surprise round) in which they can either move or fire their crossbows (but not both). Presumably, the readied action would still end up using this surprise round time, so it is really the same thing (I wouldn't give them both a readied action AND a surprise round). In the following round, everyone acts according to Initiative rolls, so it's possible that the kenku will get to go again, with the PCs still flat-footed, if they roll particularly well on their Initiative rolls. Hope that helps. O
Has anyone else toyed with the idea of making ALL magic items into "Legacy" items? I have a hard time imagining the +1 longsword factory that must exist somewhere, manned by dozens of 3rd level wizards (who must have XPs pumped in via IV), in order to create the number of magic items that exist in the typical D&D world. Scrolls, wands, and potions seem okay to me the way they are, but it seems like there should be a reason for a wizard or cleric to craft other items, considering the time, money, and XP involved. Thus, I was thinking about having a "Legacy-only campaign," in which all of the magic items to be found would utlimately be unique, powerful creations that advance with the power of the PC. Obviously, there would be much fewer magic items to be found, but it would be all about quality, not quantity. The Earthdawn system (which few of you probably remember) had a similar system, and it was one of my favorite aspects of that game. Tying this into AoW would require the DM to change many of the more "generic" items (eg, Grallak Kur's banded mail +1) to masterwork equivalents (something that might give the PCs a better chance, considering the comments about AoW's massive overpower) and then turning the few remaining items (eg, Theldrick's full plate +1) into Legacy Items. This would require a bit of work, but not as difficult as it may seem at first. Thoughts? O
After reading responses and seeing how other groups are doing, I think I've decided to play it by ear when the party reaches this area. If they have been having a hard time of it, are badly injured, and/or don't have any magical light, then the room will only be half filled (half empty for you pessimists). If, however, they have been breezing through things, then I'll keep it as is. I have the feeling that this is an encounter that may prove a bit tricky, but will be one of the things the players remember about this dungeon years from now.
does anyone else feel like this encounter is way too nasty? since the PCs have to go down into the water (something that i can't imagine any right-thinking person doing) and will have to do it in the dark unless they happen to have some sunrods or housed the everburning torch from above, i have considered making the water only 5' deep. this is still deep enough to slow them down and the water elemental can still attempt to extinguish any torches to give the encounter a bit of menace, and it has the added advantage of not forcing the PCs to swim back up for air every 30 seconds. am i just overly worried? those who have run this already, did it work out ok?
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