Arcesilaus's page

How much would it wreck things if the players heard rumors of a "long-dead evil which may one day return" early on? I'm thinking a Varisian fortune-teller that everyone ignores or some such thing. That would perhaps at least introduce the concept of Karzoug early enough that the players would get used to the idea that they need to track him down and destroy him.

I'm starting my RotRL campaign in two weeks, and have been considering this aspect for some time now.

Any thoughts???

I think that's a step in the right direction and certainly a valuable foreshadowing tool, but sometime around the beginning of Fortress the PCs should really know who Karzoug is, that he's on his way back, and that he will kick some major heiny (sp?). Maybe between information they acquire from Barl Breakbones and Teraktinus (if he's questioned), they could be alerted to the details. Certainly, the Library under Jorgenfist should be giving the final details of Karzoug's plot (without revealing the location of Xin-Shalast).

I think a really important point to make, also, is that the PCs have not saved the day when they defeat Mokmurian and disband the army of giants. Karzoug plans to lay down some smack on everyone (including Sandpoint), and the PCs have to know that. Small, pervasive hints, like many repetitions of your example, will also help to make it clear that everyone should be worried.

This may all sound like overkill, but I don't think it's possible to overplay the danger, if you want the final confrontation to have some tension and drama.

O

I have to confess, I haven’t bought Spires yet so I’m a bit in the dark with this suggestion, but is there a way to introduce Karzoug to the players well before the final mod?

I don’t know exactly when or how, but if the PCs got a chance to barely survive against the Big K and his giant army, they might be more inclined to see him as a major threat AND feel motivated to search for weapons powerful enough to defeat him.

What if, maybe, Karzoug were entombed in Jorgenfist? When the PCs slay all them runemarked giants, Big K rises right up in front of them, swats them aside, and tells them to their faces what he has in store for their lands. Then he departs to regain his capital, leaving the PCs run in fear and move to Andoran…umm…I mean try to find a weapon against him.

While this idea would certainly strike some fear into the party, it would likely also strike some TPK into the party, as well. It would be difficult to justify Karzoug (an epic, elite, butt-kickin' 22nd level character) not mopping up the whole party in about 2 rounds. Something like this could work if it were only a "partial manifestation," like the statues sprinkled throughout the Spire (I think placing an actual Karzoug there would ruin some of the fun of the final scene of the AP).

But I really think that the best option is to make Karzoug's potential return seem like a literally earth-shattering disaster, not just the arrival of a real powerful guy. It might help if the PCs somehow got wind of the function of the Leng Device and realized that, one way or another, it spells doom for the continent.

O

I haven't looked at CWM's ideas, but my immediate thought was to agree with the idea that you just take away some of their powers, but I would go the other direction. I would leave the PC with ONLY his daily (or maybe daily and encounter) power. The ability to shoot a magic missile over and over again is the hallmark of a real wizard, not someone who dabbles or is still learning the ropes. The ability to shoot a spray of acid just once, however, is the sort of thing an apprentice might be able to pull off.

So, a 0-level character might have all his attributes lowered by 1, 0 feats (1 for humans), 0 at-wills powers, standard trained skill, 1 encounter power (to symbolize his destined power), and 1 daily power. HP = 8 + Con. Then, when he hits 1st level (I would start him between -750 and -500), he gets a bump in all attributes, a feat, and his at-will powers.

O

It's especially problematic that after that huge digression the runeforged weapons weren't essential or even particularly useful.

You're right that the Runeforged weapons are poorly advertised as "pivotal in [Karzoug's] defeat." In reality, they are certainly not necessary.

I think that should be a serious recommendation for DMs who haven't gotten there yet: make the runeforged weapons important! An entire adventure is spent retrieving the things, make them mean something.

O

The great thing is the quality of people around Paizo to ask opinions of and of course the feedback which, as you know, is always taken very seriously by all concerned.

I must add that it is pretty cool that the Paizo boards allow for this sort of direct communication with the writers and editors of the adventures that we come to love reading and playing. I am not much of a fanboy, but I really appreciate the direct responses I have received in the past from the Paizo staff and freelance writers.

It's also fun to think that in some way my party's experience and feedback actually have a small effect on future adventures and products because the folks who are making these things are so willing to accept and consider praise and constructive criticism.

Thanks for putting together quality products, and I hope to enjoy years more of Paizo adventure paths.

O

I agree with many of your points and will now, irrationally, take all credit for the idea of using Fort Rennick as a reverse Dungeon 'cause I have just that much of a swollen head.

Yeah, it wasn't my idea. So someone else should take the credit.

Your issues in the last three adventures are, I feel, something of a damned if you do/ damned if you don't issue. The more you play up 'home' (in this case Sandpoint) the bigger the problem when the AP calls for the adventurers to leave home. There is no real solution that I can see here. Certainly one can write APs that never leave home but I don't think anyone wants to only that one kind of AP. Exploration is as valid a theme for an AP as protecting home. On the other hand do we really want to make all our cities and towns, especially starting cities and towns, seem like card board just so it does not hurt to have them left behind by the AP? Somehow I can't see that as much of a solution.

I think the solution to this is to connect the danger to Sandpoint, even if it resides some distance away. As I mentioned in the synopsis of SoXS, it's not entirely clear at the end of the adventure why Karzoug is such a great threat, particularly to a place as far away as Sandpoint. As the module itself points out, it's unlikely that anyone will really notice that the PCs just saved the world (and I'm not sure they would really know it, themselves, if it weren't for me filling in some holes during the AP "after party.") If it is clear that Karzoug's return is a Very Bad Thing for everyone, including the residents of Sandpoint, then the distance and travel thing isn't a problem, because the heroes are still protecting their homes. There is a personal attachment in that case that was missing from the end of the AP as written. This is the single most important fix, in my opinion, to change RotRL from a great campaign to a truly amazing one.

O

As the thread says, my gaming group finished Rise of the Runelords today, and Karzoug was defeated (mostly). My players feel appropriately heroic, and, amazingly, only one character died (permanently) over the course of the entire AP. It was a blast, and I think everyone truly feels that Paizo published a quality product. Everyone is excited to start CotCT next week. That said, looking back, there are several things that I wish I had done differently and several things I DID do differently. In the interest of providing some feedback as well as possible guidance for those to come as they strive to prevent the return of the despicable Runelords, here are the things that I would or did do differently:

Burnt Offerings
This was a great start to the campaign and an adventure that my entire group enjoyed. I only wish I had played up the backgrounds a bit more and made the NPCs in this adventure more memorable for the players. As the DM, I know how interesting Nualia and her henchmen are, but I didn't do a good job of letting the PCs in on the whole backstory. I guess I didn't let them talk enough. Interaction with the NPCs in Sandpoint was pretty decent, though, and my players loved anything that had to do with getting to know and protecting the townsfolk. One of the PCs actually ended up marrying Shayliss in a huge ceremony. Sandpoint was a highlight of the adventure. I wish also that I had played up the wackiness of the goblins in Thistletop a bit more. When they attacked Sandpoint, I played it up, but at home, they were much more traditional goblins, which is a shame.

The Skinsaw Murders
My players' favorite adventure. It helped that I had the PC rogue burning down the area mills to impress the Szcarni. This naturally made him a suspect in the Sandpoint murders. Wheee! The scarecrow encounter didn't really work out for me, and I'm not sure if it was because I don't have the patience to run what was essentially a maze encounter, or if the individual ghouls were too easy. Either way, it ended up being pretty yawn-worthy. I should have played up the "human victims tied to sticks" aspect, to make the players unsure whether the twitching scarecrow was a ghoul worth killing or a human that needs to be saved. Foxglove Manor was amazing (everyone loves the haunts), even though Aldern was a little obvious as the bad guy. He was also a push-over at the end of the day, and I should have either: 1) given him some ghoul minions for support and 2) left him as a human. I think that would make what he's doing even creepier. Everyone knows monsters kill people ... when people kill people, that's eeeevil. I did the fix suggested for Xanesha and replaced her with Lucrecia from HMM, but it was still nearly a TPK, and escape came only with some friendly universe-shaking from the DM. So, in short, the encounters in this module were either too easy or too hard.

The Hook Mountain Massacre
This was probably my biggest change in the whole AP. I moved Fort Rannick MUCH closer to Sandpoint, playing on my players' desire to protect home-base, and they certainly appreciated it. I made Paradise a gambling den beneath the Fatman's Feedbag and let the rogue actually see it before it burnt down and killed his contacts in the Szcarni. The party met Xanesha and Lucrecia together and wiped them out this time. Overall, this part of the adventure went well, and my players leaped at the opportunity to fix up Fort Rannick and take over. In fact, the cleric in the party founded a new order, The Hand of the Light, to protect the surrounding countryside. In retrospect, I wish I had run the final battle with Barl Breakbones as a siege encounter, in which the remaining ogres and giants attacked Fort Rannick. As it stands, the players never got the opportunity to play with their new toy, which is the basic problem with the last half of the AP. After all this Sandpoint build-up ... off they go.

Fortress of the Stone Giants
This was probably the weakest of the adventures for my group, although the stone giant raid was awesome! Definitely one of the highlights of the campaign. From there, though, it seemed a bit unrealistic that these captives were hauled all the across the continent to be sacrificed and kept alive while the PCs traveled, planned, rested between fights, etc. The players wisely skipped most of the aboveground area of Jorgenfist, the black mummy and harpies were essentially a page-waste, and I dropped a lot of the off-theme encounters underground (the kobold barbarian, the trolls, the scanderig, and the shining child of Thassilon). I wish I had made the tribal situation above ground more political and something the PCs could have been involved in more directly. The idea that they just wander off after Mokmurian dies was sort of anti-climactic. I managed to rescue it a bit when the cleric took the Leadership feat. For his cohort, I gave him a young stone giant brave who had been sent to help the party by his tribe.

Sins of the Saviors
The Scribbler was a waste. I wish I had simply found another way to give the PCs the riddle that led to Runeforge. His guards and wards was simply annoying and he was a cakewalk, although the glabrezu caused some trouble. My players really enjoyed the remainder of this adventure, though, and the sin-themed dungeons were a hit. I wish they had been a bit more involved and that all 7 sins had had dungeons, but I understand space restrictions (stupid Scribbler!). The necromancy dungeon was too long, though, and I cut a fair number of the unnecessary encounters there. It was this adventure, by the way, in which my players finally commented on the Golarion diary fetish and vowed to never write anything down, when they became evil masterminds. I also should have either made the directions for creating runeforged weapons more clear or, since my players ended up with 6 different flavors of runeforged weapon, given them more opportunities to use the abilities of the non-domineering weapons.

Spires of Xin-Shalast
By this point in the campaign, my players were starting to look at each other at the beginning of each session and say things like, "Why are we doing this, again? We're trying to stop what now?" Karzoug had finally been identified as the BBEG, but the players had no sense of the urgency or of the consequences of failing to prevent his return. They had just been told (by a bad guy and a bad guy's diary, of course) that Karzoug needed to be stopped and said, "okay, I guess." I should have made it more clear how evil Karzoug was and made it more of a personal mission to stop him. At this point, they were so far away from Sandpoint that they had no personal attachment to anything that was going on at this point. The dwarven cottage was a nice touch, and one of my players actually said, "This is Pathfinder, so it's going to be creepy." I reworked Svevenka to make her a bit more interesting and useful, but my party never really needed her help, because ... they skipped Xin-Shalast. I should have seen it coming, but I figured they'd hit the Spire and then return to the city find Sihedron Rings. Turns out that the save DCs for the occlusion field were so ridiculously low that the whole party just weathered the storm until they killed some giants in the main spire and stole their rings. I did manage to throw Ghlorofaex at them, but they avoided everything else. Alas. Also, I didn't use the "death zone" altitude rules, as they seemed to be a real hassle and can only be overcome by a wizard (something my party lacked). The fights within the spire were pretty cool (except Viorian, who only got one turn), and the final battle against Ceoptra, Khalib, and minions was awesome.

In summary, my group very much enjoyed the AP, and I learned a great deal about how to run a whole campaign from start to finish (I ran Age of Worms, also, but RotRL was much more solid). I hope this information is an interesting read and maybe provides some suggestions for other DMs. YMMV. It seems CotCT has managed to correct some of the issues I had with RotRL, and I'm really looking forward to running it.

By the way, in case you're wondering, Karzoug was not slain. The party cleric managed to turn him into a ruby statue with Chellan, the sword of greed, and the Soul Lens was destroyed, stranding Karzoug in the pocket dimension of the Runewell as a statue, until someone comes along and dispels his transformation. Look for Rise of the Runelords II coming next summer, and this time it's personal!

O

My only worry is that if there are too many side encounters, the players will lose focus on the core plot of the campaign. I don't know yet if my group wants to run up to level 30, but I would rather have this get them up to level 24 (about 4 levels per module) and then run a different adventure afterwards if they want to go to level 30 (the end of RoTR might do well for this purpose).

Yeah, this is a problem, but the opening adventures of this AP already have that feeling to them. The multiple seemingly-unrelated short quests don't really feel like they have much to do with the overarching plot, so the addition of a couple other side quests shouldn't dilute too much. Also, I am hoping to make my additions as related to individual PCs' backstories as possible. For example, I am changing some of the names and affiliations in the Heathen adventure to correlate to a religious order that one of my players established based out of Fort Rannick in RotRL. So, even though it's not directly related to this party, the players will feel a connection to the "side" quests that should keep everyone involved in the story.

O

IMC, Orik was defeated soundly, stripped of all gear, and sent packing ... In fact, the Shoanti Dragon Shaman still carries Orik's cool "face shield" (having enchanted it several times) at 16th level.

I am about to start running CotCT and was planning to replace Verik with Orik, so the players get to kick his butt all over again (it is unlikely that they'll realize that Verik is in any way related to Orik, unless I simply tell them, so I thought it would be more fun to say he simply fled to Korvosa and joined the guard).

After reading today's blog, though, I'm tempted to leave Verik so they can make the connection in Second Darkness. Unfortunately, I'm still worried about how to play up the connection without spoonfeeding the players.

O

Hmm I been thinbking about this for a while. Maybe we could return to give xps for magic items and treasure. That way we can keep the amount of encounters per adventure the same and mantain a similar character growth.

Hey it used to work fine , way back then.

I never really liked this idea. It always seemed like the heroes were being rewarded twice.

One nice thing is that the first two adventures in CotCT really lend themselves to additional quests and adventures, given the "Hey, we've got a job for you guys." structure. I imagine it will get trickier (although I'm already trying to figure out how to work Gallery of Evil into EfOK (with Salvatore Scream as the mad painter) and Seven Swords of Sin into the travel montage between Korvosa and the Shoanti encounters). All the travel during the second half of the AP should allow for some flexibility.

O

Excellent thread guys!!

I haven't touched any of the Pathfinder stuff yet, as I am currently cutting my teeth of 3e->4e conversions with Age of Worms.

I have a question, how are you guys handling the slower character growth in 4E?

Since this will be our first shot at 4th edition, my players all told me that they want the campaign to go from 1st to 30th level. Thus, I am devoting 5 levels per adventure. The only way to handle this, of course, is to lengthen each adventure with plenty of side quests and additional elements in each adventure. For example ...

O

I, too, was disappointed by the DMG overall. Feeling that the good stuff, while quite good, is a bit on the scarce side. As I prepare for my first 4th ed. game (to start next weekend), I find that I only crack the DMG to check XP values for building encounters and to determine treasure parcels. I actually feel bad that the other players in my group (who almost never DM) shelled out $ for the DMG, as it is almost entirely a waste for a player (as opposed to the 3.5 DMG that had lots of valuable stuff for players to know).

O

I vaguely remember James Jacobs (or someone similar), while discussing the Age of Worms AP, that the magazine format didn't allow for adventures of the appropriate length to follow the recommended blend of easy, even, and difficult encounters. In an effort to get the right amount of XP out there for the PCs to rake in, the average difficulty of each encounter was increased. This, in turn, leads to the occasional TPK if the players aren't wary or overextend themselves between rests. There is, of course, also the problem with designing encounters in 3.5 that makes them essentially impossible to predict it's ease or lethality. Often, it's a crapshoot.

As for the encounter in KotS, IIRC that fight is supposed to hit in waves, so that the PCs have a chance to thin the opponents before Irontooth and his buddies show up. Thus, it would be an overwhelming encounter if everything hit at once, but it's not supposed to be bad in waves (or so the writer seemed to think).

O

Mistake or house rule? (and maybe would not have changed much anyway) Harm reduces you only to 1hp no matter how many hp you had before or how big the damage was.

Ack!

Harm charges a subject with negative energy that deals 10 points of damage per caster level... If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount, but it cannot reduce the target's hit points to less than 1.

I always read the bit about not reducing to less than 1 HP as part of the "if you save" sentence. Thus, if you make the save you take half damage, with a maximum of your current HP-1. If you fail the save, though, all bets are off and you take level*10 HP damage. Is there an errata or something somewhere? I would love to know so I can save the PCs the cost of the Raise Dead.

O

PS Woo hoo! Post #200!

Name of PC: Khorin One-Ear
Class: 15th level Halfling Rogue
Adventure: Spires of Xin-Shalast (this is my first PC death since Burnt Offerings!)
Catalyst: Lamia Harridan and Harm

During the assault on Karzoug's Spire, the party of 6 defeated 12 cloud giants, 6 storm giants, 2 rune giants and the Champion of Greed (she only got to attack once). But, rather than retreat and rest, they decided to open one more door into the room with the anima lens. There they encounter Ceoptra, her harridan lackeys, Khalib, and 2 rune giants he had recruited for muscle. It was an epic battle, particularly since the PCs were just about out of their most powerful resources. The Khorin, for some reason, got a little bit further into the room than was a good idea, and one of the harridans cast harm on him. He was blinking, but that didn't help him, and he rolled a natural 1 on his Will save. 120 missing hit points later, he was toast. The party considered running away but felt that they didn't have anywhere to go, so stuck it out and emerged battered but victorious.

Next week: Into the Eye of Avarice!

PS They're probably going to Raise Khorin, so maybe I can post him again later.

As I read over this thread, it seems that many people who are not happy with the skill challenge rules feel that way because they feel that the DMG is trying to codify and add structure to a scene that should be free-form and run without the restriction of "rules." Some have argued that it restricts the actions of the characters (e.g., they can't cast divination spells), and some have complained that they are too complicated to write up for published adventures, since the DM can't foresee all possible character actions.

It seems, in both these cases, that individuals are falling into the same trap that they accuse the writers of falling into. Those unhappy with the skill challenge seem to feel locked into a set of rules with very strict limitations and clear-cut restrictions to possible actions. Instead, I feel that the skill challenge rules allow for tremendous creativity, on the part of the players as well as DM.

As has been noted above, there is nothing that says that all PCs have to participate in the skill challenge, and, in fact, it might be dramatically appropriate that some not. As the DMG points out, skill challenges during combat require this kind of delegation of tasks. Further, I think DMs have to be creative with PC actions they hadn't thought of by granting anything from an automatic success for some actions (the divination spell that allows the PCs to know that it's the "green wire" that must be cut) to bonuses on other checks. If the PCs try something really wacky that you hadn't thought of, don't count its attempt as a success or failure toward the final count, but grant a +2 to some other roll. For example, in the negotation with the Duke, the bard PC might regale the Duke with stories of the party's exploits, impressing him and making him respect them further. You could rule that a successful DC 15 Perform check (say) grants +2 to all Diplomacy checks for the remainder of the challenge. A failure could have no effect, or he might think the PCs are overproud, and you could apply a -2 to Diplomacy. Etc.

Don't allow yourself to be locked into rules that don't exist and enjoy the flexibility of the system.

O

Bill designed one of my favorite games of all time; TORG. In TORG there was a built in system that IIRC was called 'skill challenges.' at the least it was called something like that. Skill challenges were situations that required you to achieve a number of successes using one or more skills to accomplish a task, and they used the initiative system of the game. The deal was though, that you were generally trying to do this while a fight was going on.

One example I remember was the PCs are in an ancient temple surrounded by Nile Empire Stormtroopers who are shooting at them and occasionally charging at the temple. The huge stone temple door is off it's rollers, which are now jammed. so the PCs need to unjam the rollers, lift the door onto the rollers, and then close the door.

While bullets fly over there heads.

[threadjack] ahhh, TORG. How I miss this game and the "Trinket Trilogy" that is alluded to above. Scribe, I've been jonesing for TORG players for 4 years now ... you don't happen to live in Connecticut, do you?

O

My campaign is just about done with the Rise of the Runelords AP, as the PCs are fighting through the last of the guards to confront the final BBEG (trying to avoid spoilers) and are all 15th level.

I have two problems with high level play:

1. Flying. I hate the fact that (thanks to the party sorcerer) no one walks anywhere anymore. I have real problems with trying to keep battles fast-paced and exciting while simultaneously dealing with three-dimensional movement and combat. I have started to limit flight in certain circumstances (10' high tunnels, for example) and am working on a more free-form set of rules for tracking altitude and distance, but it's a hassle and don't enjoy it. It also doesn't make much sense from a traditional fantasy standpoint. Even in high-magic fictional fantasy worlds, you only ever see the wizards flying themselves around not the whole party zooming across chasms and up the sides of mountains. Perhaps the fly spell should be Personal?*

2. Hand-fulls of dice. With 6 PCs, my combats tend to last for an hour, at least. I have finally trained my players to be somewhat efficient in die-rolling (rolling damage with to-hit, for example), but the amount of math and sheer number of dice involved are absurd. For example, the 15th level dwarf duskblade with a flaming waraxe, shield bash, and the ability to attach a shocking grasp to each swing rolls: 5 d20s to hit, 1-4 d10s plus 1-5 d6s for damage, followed by 1-4 d20s for spell penetration (inevitable at this level) and 1-4 times 5d6 for shocking grasp damage, every round. This could conceivably total 38 dice, which doesn't mention the math and buffs that have to be considered for each die. God forbid the target has concealment or anything wacky. (actually, I'm lucky he doesn't have Great Cleave). By the way, he has the ability to cast a buttload of swift spells, which adds to the fun. Now, luckily, he's one of the worst in the group (the halfling thief with the ring of blinking and the palm throw ability might be worse), but we're talking about minutes of time just for one round AFTER the player has decided what he wants to do and without any role-playing or description of his actions. This is not fun.

Unfortunately for the Pathfinder RPG, I don't really see it improving either of these two areas, which is why I'm moving to 4th edition. I don't want to derail this thread into a debate about the pros and cons of 4th edition, but I do think it has made some progress in patching these broken areas.

O

* In all fairness, flying did allow for one of the most entertaining solutions to a combat I've seen in a while. In order to kill the blue dragon that was about to munch on his buddy, the flying dragon shaman let himself fall and crash-landed on the dragon's back, doing 25d6 damage to both, severely wounding the shaman and killing the dragon. That was fun.

I agree with Gail.

I ran Age of Worms (the second AP in Dungeon magazine) in Iron Kingdoms, because it seemed like a great setting. What I found, though, was that the expectations of the adventure path were so different than the assumptions of the setting that I either had to re-write practically everything in each adventure or (as it worked out) I just lost a lot of the Iron Kingdom flavor towards the end. The high-level adventures, in particular, really don't play well with the low-magic, steampunk, low-healing concepts of the Iron Kingdoms. Honestly, I can't even imagine running something like Sins of the Saviors (the 5th adventure in Rise of the Runelords) in Iron Kingdoms.

As a slight aside, I found that IK is wonderful to read and that Privateer Press prints lovely books, but the setting was way more hassle than fun, in the long run.

O

Just give the dog a stage and the opportunity to sing politically relevant anthem-rock, and he'll wander off, start wearing bug-shades, and become incredibly full of himself. Problem solved. Unless, of course, you like good music.

In all seriousness, though, I generally let the player run his animal companion, just as I do with cohorts, etc. I say you should let them have fun with their ambush-scenting doggie. It makes the choice an important and relevant one, and the players feel like they have a cool trick. Before long, though, the dog will lag behind the power-curve and won't be able to keep up with the ACs and hit points needed to be involved in a real fight. Then you kill it, or it becomes much less involved in combat and encounters.

O

Good luck. It is my experience with 3.5 rules that you never really know how bad a bad guy is until you get there. For example, in my Age of Worms campaign, Dragotha was a cakewalk, while the druids on "Library Island" would have been a TPK if I hadn't fudged. You can follow all the CR and EL rules you want, but at the end of the day, it's a crapshoot.

That said, here are some of my thoughts ... If it's really just a two-on-one and doesn't include the whole party, then he should be about 13th level for a 50-50 chance at PC victory. Duskblades are pretty tough, though, (one of players is running one now in RotRL, and he is mighty) so you might want to try level 12. Of course, I assume you're not planning to fight in an infinite open plain, so your terrain and lighting options might favor one side or the other. For example, the duskblade wants to just teleport close to its enemy, hit three times (with shocking grasp on each hit), and then cast swift invisibility and avoid return fire. Rinse and repeat. This nullifies the barbarian's movement and the sorcerer's area attacks. So maybe you want to set up something that allows the barbarian to engage and withdraw, which allows the sorcerer free reign and doesn't devolve into a (boring) "see who can hit the other one until someone falls down" slugfest.

Also, shouldn't the cohort be 2 levels below the PC?

O

Arkady: I do think that 4 encounters will work (I hope), but the spider encounter is optional and they might never see the shark (like Pop 'N Fresh). I would also like to see a bit more leveling than is likely with just a straight conversion (Ideally, 2nd level before the Butcher Shop encounter, 3rd before chasing Trinia, 4th at the end of the adventure). This will require more encounters and also some quest rewards, I think, which are easily placed given the natures of the first two adventures in this AP.

SW: I know Gaedren needs an interrupt power, but I couldn't think of a good one. Second Chance is okay, but I'm not sure I want to steal from the halflings here. I thought about just letting him make two attacks as a standard action, but he won't be able to reload fast enough. I also thought about leveling up a single croc, rather than going for multiples, but I like the idea of the PCs having to fight their way through the beastie to get to Lamm, who is peppering them with crossbow bolts. Let's face it, with Lamm stuck in the corner, he won't last long against the PCs' tanks. Since there are two paths to Lamm, I needed two crocs, and thus the multiples. I might come around at some point and agree that it is a cooler image with just one croc.

I am trying to split the fishery into 4 discrete encounters:

1) The entryway. It is likely that the PCs will enter through the door that leads into A7. As battle erupts, the dog(s) and Yargin will join in the fray. I liked the conversion of Yargin posted above, but don't feel the need to keep the wand at all. I'll just have him fling acid until he runs out, then flee to Gaedren.

Bloo & Kripper - 2 gray wolves (250 XP)
Yargin Balko - kobold slinger (100 xp)
Hookshanks Gruller - gnome skulk (125 xp)
Lamm's Lambs - 3 human rabbles (75 xp)
- Total: 550 XP (level 1 encounter for 6 PCs)
- Treasure: Cabinet holds 2 100 gp garnets, 40 gp, and a +1 Wand of Chill Strike (3 parcels)

2) The Fishery Floor. I assume that the workers down here either won't hear the fisticuffs above or will ignore the barking of dogs as something they've heard before. If they do savvy to the assault, I imagine they'd rather defend their position than charge upstairs into a fight. I gave Giggles a couple of teenage Lambs as additional muscle. At some point, one of the baddies will try to bull rush a PC into the open pit to the hungry jigsaw shark waiting below. I might also make a couple squares around the vat slippery (start turn in square: Acrobatics check DC 10 to avoid falling prone. Also requires check if moving faster than half speed through square.)

Giggles - human berserker (175 xp)
Jo & Eddard - human bandits (250 xp)
Lamm's Lambs - 5 human rabbles (125 xp)
jigsaw shark - see post early in this thread (100 xp)
- Total: 650 xp [if they encounter the shark] (level 1 encounter)

3) Kraken's Folly Hold. This encounter might be skipped altogether, if the PCs climb down the ropes to the area below.

drain spiders - 3 deathjump spiders (525 xp)
terrain - the hold is full of spiderwebs (DMG p. 69)

- Total: 525 xp (level 1 encounter)
- Treasure: Wavestrider Boots on a dead body hanging in the webs (1 parcel)

4) Gaedren's Playground. I decided to go all nutty on the crocs, a la Disney's The Rescuers, and give Gaedran a family that bask in his basement. Gaedren will do his best to shift PCs (via Trick Strike) into the water and into the jaws of that pesky shark (if it hasn't been dealt with already).

Gobblegut & his kids - 3 visejaw crocodiles (525 xp)
Gaedren Lamm - see below (300 xp)
- Total: 825 xp (level 3 encounter)
- Treasure: (In Gaedren's Den) 190 gp, potion of healing, Bracers of Mighty Striking (with Gaedren's armor: 4 parcels)

Gaedren Lamm - Level 3 Rogue Elite (Striker) - XP 300
Initiative: +3
Senses: Perception +3
HP 86, Bloodied 43, 1 healing surge (21 HP)
AC 21, Ref 20, Fort 13, Will 17 (+2 when bloodied (Bloodthread))
Saving Throw +2
Action Points 1
Class Features: First Strike, Sneak Attack (+2d6)
R Sly Flourish (standard, at-will): +6 vs. AC, 1d6+7 dam)
R Trickster's Blade (standard, encounter, recharge: bloodied): +6 vs. AC, 2d6+3 dam, +4 to AC until start of next turn)
R Trick Strike (standard, daily): +6 vs. AC, 3d6+3 dam + slide target 1 square)
Master of Deceit
Alignment: Evil
Skills: Thievery +8, Bluff +9
Str 10 (+2), Con 11 (+2), Dex 13 (+3), Int 17 (+5), Wis 13 (+3), Cha 14 (+4)
Equipment: Hand crossbow, 20 bolts, +1 Cloth Bloodthread Armor

Notes:
1) I plan to expand the size of the all rooms to allow a bit more space for movement but intend to leave the catwalks/stairs in the fishery for exciting action.
2) I'm not sure I stated Lamm up correctly (esp. his HP). Feel free to critique.

Thoughts?

O

I was thinking about this last night and didn't post anything, because I thought most of the god conversions from the 4e pantheon to Golarion's were pretty straightforward. I guess I should throw out my opinion as they relate to Channel Divinity, though.

As it stands now, I would keep the Channel Divinity feats that have been presented in the PHB (why reinvent the wheel, after all), simply changing their names to refer to the gods of Golarion, as follows:

Armor of Bahamut = Armor of Iomedae
Avandra's Rescue = Desna's Rescue
Corellon's Grace = Shelyn's Grace
Harmony of Erathis = Harmony of Abadar
Ioun's Poise = Irori's Poise
Kord's Favor = Gorum's Favor
Melora's Tide = Gozreh's Tide
Moradin's Resolve = Torag's Resolve
Pelor's Radiance = Sarenrae's Radiance
Raven Queen's Blessing = Pharasma's Blessing
Sehanine's Reversal = Calistria's Reversal

It's actually kind of amazing how close of some the Golarion gods are to 4e's (Melora and Gozreh, for example).

The only problem is that we are left with three (good or neutral) gods of Golarion without Channel Divinity feats: Erastil, Cayden Cailean, and Nethys. Any thoughts on these?

O

Thanks to Paizo's staff for their response. That's a relief. It means a lot of work on my part, but at least it's doable.

So you'll leave all that work to your customers?

Just taking a light hearted stab at you guys. I LOVE the work you're doing here. The quality of the modules just blows what WOTC has been putting out away. But, because I REALLY like the 4E system, I do have high hopes for Dungeon on DDI and... hopes that Paizo does support 4E at some point in the future when WOTC gets the license in order.

That said, because I'm a total geek, I'm doing some work to convert Edge of Anarchy. I have one encounter done (whoppee), the top floor of the Old Fishery, and I think I'll work on some more today.

The big difficulties I have in design, though, are ones that people have already brought up...

1. How many levels should the whole arc take up? All 30? That would likely require addition of a LOT of encounters. I think what I'll do is recreate the encounters and see how much experience they result in, then, go back and re-assess what levels I want it to run through. This will likely require waiting until all 6 adventures are out so I can rough out encounters through all 6 books, refer back to the levels of typical monsters encountered, and then try to balance advancement so I can use as many monsters straight out of the DMG as possible. YIKES.

2. After the number of levels is figured out, the treasure will have to be totally redesigned, going back into

In converting the fishery, did you find that you had to add a large number of creatures for the encounter to be challenging? Or did you bump up the levels of the NPCs present? I'm thinking about adding a clone of Giggles to the main room and another dog or two to the top floor. I also want to try to take advantage of the open pit in the work room and probably bring the jigsaw shark to play via throwing someone into the pit, so that adds another target or two. Also, I'm thinking about expanding the size of the fishery so there can be a bit more movement.

The previous paragraph should include the caveat that I usually have 6 PCs in my party.

I think "No GSL" pretty much covers it. Without that, Paizo, or any other company, really can't do squat.

True, true ... but I got the sense from James's comments (and, of course, I can't find them anymore) that the Paizo staff was basing that feeling on some actual sense of the rules or direction that 4th ed. was headed. I'm also pretty sure that these comments were made prior to the release of the GSL announcement that companies had to publish 4th ed. exclusively.

Finally, to be clear, I'm not asking why Paizo doesn't publish Pathfinder in 4th ed. or provide conversions. I'm asking if Paizo employees or other bright folk out there think there is some element inherent to 4th ed. that prevents Pathfinder adventures from being effectively converted to it.

Anyone else have any ideas?

O

Yeah I have not figured out the treasure portion of the adventure yet. I am still trying to decide if I want to end the adventure at 15th lv like the 3.5e or go with a 20th lv 4th.

I am about to sit down and start working through converting CotCT to 4th edition myself and have two immediate thoughts.

1) Since most of the encounters will have to be so drastically modified in order to be an appropriate challenge for the PCs, there is freedom to run the campaign to ANY level. I have noted that 1st level 4th ed. PCs are much better than 1st level 3.5 PCs, but then the advancement slope is less steep (i.e., an 8th level 4th ed. PC isn't much different in power than an 8th level 3.5 PC). However, when 4th ed. PCs cross from one tier to another, they seem to have a significant power jump again, so at 11th and 21st levels, PCs jump in mightiness. It seems, then, that I would want to avoid this sort of jump mid-adventure, just for theme and flavor reasons, so I should try to time those bumps to fall between adventures. Thus, the simplest conversion seems to involve setting each adventure to run for 5 levels, which means that the whole shebang ends at level 30. Does this make sense and what do others think?

2) If I remember correctly, at one point James Jacobs, in discussing the advent of the Pathfinder RPG, told us that Paizo didn't feel that 4th ed. would be a system that would allow them to write the kind of stories that they wanted, hence PFRPG. Now that I have the books, though, I'm wondering if James would still say that. Given that the role-playing aspect of the game hasn't been changed, and it seems like things like mood and theme are still unmodified, what is it about the actual rules of 4th ed. that prevent Paizonian stories from being told using them? I ask not to challenge Mr. Jacobs's opinion, but because I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing that will make this conversion impossible, or simply very, very dull. My players loved RotRL and their only demand regarding rule sets was that we continue to play Pathfinder APs. Therefore, I want to make sure that I'll be able to capture the Pathfinder feel with 4th ed. Otherwise, we'll come up with something else. Does anyone (including Mr. Jacobs) want to weigh in on this?

Thanks

O

My friend ended up just cancelling and deciding to buy it from a local store, although that does mean he loses out on the hefty discount Amazon was offering.

This is also how I handled it. I was stressing already about having to wait for a ship date of June 10. There's no way I was going to make it until the middle of July without these books. Sure, I ended up paying about twice as much as I would have at Amazon, but I hope enough people cancel their orders to make them think twice about over-selling and hosing their customers.

O

You know, I hate to say this, but I agree that there is no real need for a 4e subboard or threads here anymore. People come to this messageboard to discuss Pathfinder. And, unfortunately, most people here view 4e and Pathfinder as diametrically opposed, and mutually exclusive in all things.

People who want to discuss 4e are going to go elsewhere, really. I know I do. I can't have a 4e discussion here; it always ends badly and strangely enough, people take my appreciation for a new game system as a personal slight or something. However, I have good Pathfinder and general discussions here.

Let's leave 4e to EN World or Gleemax.

Actually, this is the only place I come for 4e info. I don't have the books yet (ship tomorrow) and find all the discussions of the actual game data (as opposed to opinions about such) very interesting and informative. I never read EN World or Gleemax or any other boards for that matter, as I find the folks around here to be generally bright, articulate, and polite (with the occasional exception of course).

Also, I am planning to convert Curse of the Crimson Throne to 4e and run it as soon as my group finishes up Rise of the Runelords. I don't see anything at all opposed about Pathfinder and 4e. If you mean the Pathfinder Role-Playing Game, then I object once again. While they are certainly different systems, they are no more opposed than 3.5 and Harn, for example, and, in fact, have a lot more in common than those two.

I very much value the 4e boards here at paizo.com and expect that there are others like me, who love the rules discussions and questions, conversion notes, and thoughts about the future and really wish that all the bickering and arguing about who killed who will all just go away.

O

Edit: Sorry. Ignore this post.

Although I really like the specialist abilities and the distinction they add to the various specialist wizards, I fear that they ultimately lead to the same problem that clerics always faced in 3.5: domain abilities and spells didn't go far enough to make a cleric of a god of death, for example, feel really different in tone than a cleric of a god of war, for example. A single spell per spell level, with a fair amount of overlap between domains, does not create enough distinction between clerics (an issue that it seems the team recognizes, hence the changes to cleric domains). The specialist abilities seem to face the same problem. As has been brought up several other times on these boards, the primary benefit of specializing is an additional spell at each spell level, something specialists already had (with the flexibility to choose a spell, rather than having it assigned). I like the specialist bonus powers, the at-will component of the 1st level ability, and the fact that the 2nd level ability is available 1/day per 2 caster levels. In fact, I was thinking that the other powers should actually be extended along this line.

Suggestion: the 4th level power should be available 1/day per 3 caster levels, the 6th level power 1/day per 4 caster levels, etc.

Thus, a 9th level Illusionist would have illusions that last 3 extra rounds (specialist bonus), can shoot a blinding ray at will (1st level), can create a silent image 4/day (2nd level), can cast invisibility 3/day, can cast displacement 2/day, and can use his invisibility field power for a total of 9 rounds every day.

Although some might think this is a bit too overpowering for the specialist wizard, the spells that are being discussed here are not game breaking and make the wizard truly seem like part of a specialist group, rather than a dabbler (players shouldn't have to ask if an NPC is a specialist).

Thoughts?

O

Great! Thanks!

o

I hate to add to the list, but PF #9 arrived today, sans Gazetteer.

O

Most of the humanoid figures I've been working on whenever I've had weekends free from lessonplanning since the beginning of the school year (four of them, plus the little dinosaur, are PCs in my RotRL game). As the school year comes closer to ending, the need for stress relief grows greater,

Not to threadjack, but: It's pretty amazing how much a little Dungeons & Dragons helps deal with the stress of teaching, isn't it? I keep trying to come up with a workable method to run a campaign for the kids (particularly since I work at a boarding school), but, apart from that, it's a great way to unwind after grading a stack of garbage produced by hormone-crazed children. Hail to my teaching homies everywhere!

O

Speaking of NPCs, a quick question:

In my RotRL campaign, Orik Vancaskerkin survived, and the PCs sent him on his way after only taking all his stuff. Has anyone else considered using him in CotCT, instead of his brother. The new PCs won't recognize him, of course, but the players might.

Also, IMC, Justice Ironbriar survived his encounter with the PCs, and I had ruled that he fled to Korvosa to start a new life.

Do you think it would be too much to have both pop up in this campaign?

O

Mary,

I did move Fort Rannick closer to Sandpoint, and the PCs were sufficiently motivated to take claim of the fort and repair it. In fact, the party's cleric of Sarenrae took the Leadership Feat and established a new order of religious warriors to replace the now defunct Order of Black Arrows.

While this move helped with the motivation and timing issues in #3, I also worked Paradise into Sandpoint, so the PCs met Lucrezia prior to their assault on the Fort, but they were too dense to make the connection.

Overall, I'm glad I moved the Fort. It made for slightly less globe-spanning, which my players appreciated.

O

As someone who generally disagrees with Frank (even if I don't post this fact), I should say that I am fully behind this suggestion. In fact, when I heard that Polymorph had been reworked in A2, I kind of assumed that this was the direction it had gone.

It allows both the flavor of the original spell while being simple to adjudicate, balance, and calculate.

Yay.

O

Actually, Sarhuin, the reason your post comes across as snide is that your comment about 'closed minds' is completely unnecessary to make your point. If you have something to add to the conversation (and it seems you do), by all means, go nuts.

But the comments about people's minds being closed, and so on, are useless, inflammatory, and unpleasant. I think that's what we can all do without.

O

I agree that the fighter is not necessarily an under-powered class, given some planning. I think fighters tend to fall apart because the player chooses feats in a haphazard fashion, without a clear goal in mind for the character's ultimate themes and abilities, when this happens, the fighter (like many classes) seems weak. (I see this as a problem with 3.5, by the way. I don't like the idea that you have to build a character through 20th level before you have played day one.)

As an example, I recently ran the Age of Worms AP, and the two-weapon wielding Fighter was the only PC to survive the entire campaign (1st to 21st level). He was certainly not the weak link in the party.

O

I am just about to finish up Sins of the Saviors, and I am regretting

O

I have a 10 month old daughter and work at a boarding school (read: time-leeching soul-crushing pit of despair), so my wife could very easily get frustrated when I dash off every weekend to spend a whole day running my D&D campaign. The reason she doesn't is that she knows that this is my one outlet for fun. She doesn't understand the fascination of RPGs, but she is willing to let me have my one day a week that keeps me from melting down.

I make sure, though, that it really is only one day, which is why I have my Pathfinder subscription. I am the groups primary DM, mostly because I know the rules so much better than anyone else in the group, and if I had to write my own stuff, it wouldn't work out. So milk those subscriptions and keep the family happy! The other six days a week, I am home and helping with the little one. Along those lines, I make sure that my wife gets out of the house, too. She is more of a night-owl and bar-lover, so at least once a week she goes out with friends and gets her drink on, while I watch the baby. This way, she feels like the time away is equitable.

As an aside, the other 6 players in my group are 3 married couples, so I know that family role-playing is an option, and the couples seem to enjoy the time together.

O

I agree that, at high levels, the real drag on time is all the dice-rolling. This is one of the things I am looking forward to in 4th ed., as they have hinted that iterative attacks will be reduced somewhat, and damage per attack will be slightly increased.

I encourage my players to roll all their attack rolls and damage at the same time, with color-coded dice, but it still sometimes takes full minutes for the hasted 12th level duskblade to roll his four attacks, confirm criticals, roll damage, include the flaming ability from his axe, include the bard's and dragon shaman's bonuses, roll additional damage from an crits he confirmed, and then add the shocking grasp that he channeled into his axe as he swung. God forbid there's a miss chance!

I haven't yet figured out any way to speed this process up, but if anyone has any suggestions, please let 'em flY!

O

[EDIT] And, of course, 12th level isn't even all that high!

also, not wanting to prod the "vague ideas" too much, but would the siblings have names?

One would hope so. It's awfully annoying just being referred to as, "hey, you!" and "That one."

O

I am curious to see how this would work and own the 2nd ed. books. Mark me down as interested.

Note: I am a subscriber to Pathfinder and have run RotRL, so I will obviously have a fair amount of player knowledge regarding spoilers, plot, etc., but I can pretend I'm dumb!

O

I don't have this concern. In fact... if you want to run Curse of the Crimson Throne using the Pathfinder RPG Alpha rules... I suggest you do so without making ANY conversions to the stat blocks in the adventures. I'd LOVE to see how that works out. That'd be much more valuable to us than seeing playtest reports that do a full-on conversion.

Done!

SIDE TRACK: We NEEED more playtest reports. Posts of alternate fighter classes or variant magic systems or replacement rules for alignment aren't as important to us as reports...

Thanks for making this an explicit statement. I love reading the few playtest threads that are out there, but the endless lists of houserules are pretty dull. I am fired up to try some of these things out!

O

Thanks, James.

It should also be noted that The Scribbler is kind of a push-over if the PCs can tackle him without any back-up. His AC and hp are low enough that, in my campaign, he never even finished casting his buffs. If he is counting on his summoned friends to protect him, he needs to summon some beasties that can actually hit the PCs once in a while and do some damage, or PCs will just run around them and smack The Scribbler in his milky eye.

You might think the ability to dimension door anywhere in the complex would save him, but it's a hard decision to "leap" out after you've cast all your buffs, which will have expired by the time the PCs find you and then, you guessed it, smack you in your milky eye.

In retrospect, I should have had the Scribbler leap into the fray while the PCs had their hands full with Yaenit-Ku and his evil twin brother Skippy, but I was afraid that would push things over the edge into a TPK. ah, well. Live, learn, and post my warnings to others. That's my motto.

O

Regarding the elementals on Xin's Stairway ...

Are these guys lurking on the landing or some distance up the stairs? The text reads that "Anyone who climbs these stairs immediately attracts their attention," but does that mean that they will start down the stairs to deal with the intruders? or do they wait for the intruders to reach the top of the stairs?

I ask because it has a direct relation to the difficulty of the encounter: if the elementals start flinging PCs off the stairs, it is important to know how high up they are. Maybe I should see how badly Arkhryst messes the party up before deciding how the elementals react.

It is my plan to run CotCT via PFRPG, in whatever form they have reached at the time. I expect that we will start the campaign at the end of May or beginning of June.

I would love some help in converting to Pathfinder and also plan to post any conversions that I come up with, in order to help others.

My only real concern at this point is regarding monsters and scaling/converting them in order to maintain the balance with the slightly more powerful PFRPG characters, particularly since it is unlikely that we will have access to the monster rules by then. Does anyone else have this concern? Or is it not the big deal that I am imagining?

O

I see that you seem to have reread the rules sheet and noticed this already. :)

Yup. Reading the rules can sometimes help when one wants to understand said rules.

I have not been playing with the blight and herald cards in my Arkham Horror games, because I was under the impression that they were part of a separate, stand-alone ruleset. Is there a way to integrate these elements into the main Arkham Horror game?

Nevermind. I'm dumb.

O