|Paizo Pathfinder® Paizo Games|
|About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ|
George Erickson wrote:
They don't supplant humanity's weapons because they're Exotic and cost an extra feat. The butchering axe is probably still not as good as the falchion outside of Vital Strike builds, even.
Personally, I'm glad to have a couple more options other than the falcata and fauchard that make EWP actually worth the feat.
The Spheres of Might Technician works for a mechanic class, and can be used as a Synthesist since one of the abilities you can pick up lets you build and get inside a big mech (there's an archetype that focuses in on that too, iirc). The Dueling Sphere offers a DOT-based playstyle by letting you stack bleed damage but I imagine you're looking for a more castery take on the concept with your examples.
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
The hell kind of Barbarians have you been building? Barbarians have plenty of rage powers that grant excellent utility abilities beyond raw damage.
A player with very little system knowledge is unlikely to come up with a build that relies on specific magic items, to be fair. If nothing else the Big Six is always useful (though I'd hope the AP is written well enough to supply those regardless since, well they're kind of necessary).
"The best way to beat casters is by casting at them" isn't exactly encouraging, all the issues with this plan aside. I dunno about you, but when I decide to play a Brawler it isn't so that I can spend all my money faking being a Wizard.
Ryan Freire wrote:
The most ironic thing to me is that for all the complaint threads about wizards being overpowered, the screeching when people suggest altering the game world or encounter system to make things harder for them and more favorable to martials with limitless day to day abilities gets pretty intense.
Okay but like, adding weak encounters that nobody has to spend any resources to beat doesn't actually make the wizard less strong, it just means the wizard doesn't need to do anything in that encounter (leading to the wizard player being bored out of their minds). I feel like all you've accomplished is making sessions more tedious.
There's plenty of people who have made the decision that dying free is better than living a slave.
So what, are these half dozen extra encounters just pathetically weak trash clearing events? Because otherwise I don't understand how the non-casters are getting through without dying with the casters just straight up not participating in case something more troublesome comes along. HP is a limited resource, too.
Not having either Fort or Will sucks but is something you can fix, not having either of them is a huge hole to climb out of. I'd be saying the same thing about the Swashbuckler's crappy defenses if the topic was about that class.
The Rogue doesn't get the jewels because they're rigged with an Alarm spell that he has no way of even detecting because it's not considered a trap. You'd want an Investigator for that.
The Barbarian can take as much charisma as she damn well pleases because Superstition makes her will save incredible, and since the Barb has plenty of arguments for building for Intimidate she might as well grab Diplomacy as well. I've certainly built Barbarians that could serve as a party face.
Okay, so you've proven that the Paladin has excellent saves. I think you're kind of missing the point of playing a Rogue if you think all of them should be Paladins, though.
Oh, for sure. I've always maintained that the Paladin and Barbarian are in an entirely acceptable position, balanced against the gold standard of the Bard in terms of overall power and utility; the BBEG will throw fits when he finds out the Barbarian AM SMASHED the dominate person right off of his favorite minion.
Unfortunately the Wizard/Druid/Cleric are still leagues ahead of the Paladin and Barbarian, but that's because the 9th level casters are too strong, not that the Paladin and Barbarian are too weak.
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
The Cult of the Dawnflower is a largely TN organization of highly militant "worship Sarenrae or perish" types. The iconic Slayer was raised and trained by them, and he left the organization because the last orders he received were too evil.
You obviously don't have to go full "are you entirely sure you worship a Good deity" with your character, but I'm bringing up the Cult just as an example that Sarenrae's worshipers do employ underhanded tactics.
The Fighter or Rogue are never going to be as much of a problem for the BBEG as the Wizard or Cleric, is the point.
Slim Jim wrote:
Rogues don't have any reason to boost charisma, and doing so can be a detriment because it eats into point buy that can be used for the wisdom and constitution you so desperately need to not die. Why would I ever pick a Rogue for my party face when I could take a Bard, or a Mesmerist, or an Inquisitor, or... You get the idea.
It's honestly hilarious that you bemoan players who see classes as a "DPR Mechanism", because basically the only thing the Rogue has is high DPR in ideal, theoretical circumstances. The Rogue's utility is abysmal compared to any of the good classes, from the Barbarian upwards.
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
I thought the answer was so obviously "yes" that Paizo released a revised summoner in pathfinder unchained.
To be fair, just because Paizo thinks something is overpowered doesn't mean it is (remember that they swung the nerf bat on the Barbarian with Unchained, too). In this particular case I agree with their decision, though.
Childeric, The Shatterer wrote:
A bit tangential but your example doesn't work because you can only Spellstrike with spells from the Magus spell list. The general idea that dipping can be useful to evoke a character concept that is otherwise impossible is sound, though.
This is bad for the same reason Armor Training is bad. You'd have to put it on Full Plate to get genuine value that isn't better done with a lighter suit of armor, and then you're playing with 16 dexterity which is not enough for a dexterity build and too much for a strength build.
Hmm, that's a pretty interesting idea. I'll have to see the full text myself but it might be worth considering.
Even if it isn't, there's a lot of cool stuff in this book for me to be excited about. Ruffian's Riff is something that I have waited for for a very long time.
Flutter armor! made of scarves Look pretty and baddass and gain a boost to AC when you move.
This is going to be really nice for people using Spheres of Might for hyper-mobile play. Not sure how useful it'd really be for baseline Pathfinder though.
Improvisational Healer is cool, and great if you put ranks in heal even with access to magical healing.
I'm probably gonna be as disappointed in this as I was in the Healer's Handbook, but... details? Does it actually help with anything you can't do with just a CLW Wand?
Note Focused Shot takes a standard action, so it only works if you don't full attack.
Furthermore it doesn't work with anything that triggers on an attack action such as Vital Strike. It's a neat idea but unfortunately does not cut it unless you expect the campaign to end before you get your first iterative.
Lucas Yew wrote:
They're a secret wizard, obviously, who feels their party role of "all of the party roles" is threatened.
While we're pointing out good 3rd party replacements for the Fighter, the Spheres of Might Conscript is basically what you want from a Fighter (a blank page chassis that you can fill in with most any non-casting concept you want) except really good. This is largely because, unlike having a lot of extra feats, having a lot of extra sphere talents is actually worth a damn.
First off, I'm super excited for the new Slayer archetype, it's great to see something that is both very strong and very flavorful. I'm curious to know if the writer played Horde in Warcraft 3, haha.
On a more topical note, I'd like to know if there is anything that allows you to use charisma for atypical purposes other than the already mentioned Witch archetype?
Personally I don't see Fatigued (-2 STR/DEX) as a big deal - it's a very minor debuff to accuracy, damage, AC, and Reflex for a turn. Plus the sphere includes a method of bypassing the penalty and there are no restrictions on curing the effect either.
Any penalty to hit is pretty bad; just think of how amazing the +1 to hit from Inspire is. It can be a fairly significant penalty to damage for a STR user if it brings your ability modifier to an odd number, too.
The martial focus mechanic sucks pretty badly, though that's a known and agreed upon factor since it's getting changed. Maybe what they will do with it makes fatigue a desperation move you take when you really need an exertion, sort of like a kineticist nova'ing and blowing a bunch of burn.
The more I look at the Berserking Sphere the more I don't like it... Fatigued is an awful penalty, especially for the 2-handed STR characters that would normally be drawn to this sphere.
I'd like to see the exertion mechanic replaced entirely, to be honest, and replaced with something else. I'd recommend rewarding the Berserker for getting hit; tanked AC compensated for with large amounts of DR and temp HP is already one of the Cool Things Barbarians do, expanding on that further than the Berserking Sphere already does could make it feel a lot more fun.
This ability needs to be worded so that casters cannot steal it; should Swashbucklers be getting charisma to AC? Absolutely. Should Sorcerers? Absolutely not. I wouldn't be bothered if having 6th or 9th level casting (or the equivalent of spells for SoP) barred you from using the talent entirely.
I mean sure, but instead it only channels to harm and takes a -2 penalty to saves vs. mind-affecting effects which is much, much worse.
Barbarian: F+-murder train of anger. Almost exclusively melee DPR without specific archetypes. Can spend rounds of her combat buff for extraordinary utility abilities.
Bard: The OG buff bot, but remember: you're buffing yourself as well, so you can easily stand side by side with the other melee DPR classes. Not as good of a pure mage as you'd think.
Cleric: Can do literally anything, except be fun at parties. Have a real life dagger prepared for when people assume that you're just their healer.
Druid: A Cleric if instead of being tied to a god clerics turned into dinosaurs.
Fighter: A martial class that offers endless possibilities but has exactly one possibility. Can be made functional with a sufficiently large number of splat books.
Monk: weaboo fightan man. The go to class if you want to punch people, but with the same caveat as the Fighter.
Paladin: The class for people who want to be completely invulnerable to any and all GM horse s~%*. As compensation, it gives the GM Paladin-specific horse s#+* to ping you with.
Ranger: Fighter with some Druid spells. Far more functional out of the box, a very good beginner's class.
Rogue: The class for people who have way more confidence in the usefulness of skills than they should. Unchained version is 100% required and makes you a secondary DPR that can debuff enemies.
Sorcerer: A Wizard for people who'd rather be sexy than overpowered.
Wizard: For people who relish the irony of being the most overpowered class in the game without doing a single point of damage. Can make the Fighter feel very good about himself.
Alchemist: Can either be a melee DPR machine with mutagen or a ranged DPR machine with bombs. Yes you have both, but no you cannot build for both.
Cavalier: It's a Fighter with a horse and a lance. Alternatively it's a hobbit with a dog and a bow, which is actually far more terrifying.
Gunslinger: For when you want the smug satisfaction of completely breaking the bestiary and are willing to trade out doing anything else of interest for it.
Inquisitor: A Cleric who trades out being overpowered and gets to be fun at parties. I hope you like melee DPR because that's what you're doing.
Magus: A Fighter that gets to use spells to instantly explode an enemy a few times a day.
Oracle: A Cleric who is the MOST fun at parties. Arguably gets the most in terms of not-spells stuff for the 9th level spellcasters.
Summoner: You know what a Summoner is. I don't have to explain what a summoner is
Vigilante: A Fighter that gets class features. There's also this weird "dual identity" thing, but nobody really cares about that.
Witch: There are two types of witches: the type that either instantly wins the encounter with a single Hex or spends the whole combat with her thumb up her butt, and the type that is a Wizard that won't stop f~ing laughing.
Antipaladin: The exact opposite of the Paladin in every way, including quality. Possibly the worst spell list in the game.
Ninja: Used to be a better Rogue. Then Unchained came around and made the Rogue not suck, and now the Ninja is just a s!!!ty Teisatsu Vigilante.
Samurai: A weaboo fightan cavalier. I hope you like katanas because you are using a katana.
Arcanist: A wizard that is slightly easier for a beginner to play.
Bloodrager: A Barbarian that gets a little spell casting instead of rage powers. Weighing the second worst spell list in the game against the best class feature given to any full BAB class, and it comes out just about even. Thanks, Paizo.
Brawler: A Monk who signed up for punches, not weaboo fightan. Is better when you know what feats you can pick up with martial flexibility, but not by as much as you'd think.
Hunter: For people who would rather play their animal companion than their character.
Investigator: The true skill god. The rogue's wife says the investigator's name in bed, and sometimes, the rogue does too.
Shaman: For when you want access to the biggest variety of spells of any class. Fair and Balanced(TM).
Skald: A bard, except he's super mad. He's so mad that he doesn't play nice with any of the classes that usually love to have a bard in the party. Barbarians especially hate him, and this just makes the skald even madder.
Slayer: A Ranger without all of the naturey bits. If you've ever thought of showing a new player the Fighter, give them a Slayer instead.
Swashbuckler: The Fighter, except he cut off one of his hands. Not actually required to be dexterity-based.
Warpriest: An Inquisitor who's even better at smashing faces but went back to cleric-levels of being fun at parties.
Kineticist: The game's premier switch-hitter, being very powerful in melee while giving up hardly any of her ranged prowess. The trade off is that you have to kill yourself. Not as much of a weakness as you'd think.
Medium: Jack of all trades, master of none. For when you want to fulfill every possible party role, but not all at once (that would be a Cleric or a Druid).
Mesmerist: For that a~~%#*+ in your group that declares a roll for seduction at every man, woman, or ghoul he encounters. I don't actually know anything about this class
Occultist: The blingcaster. He casts with his bling. Again, very good in melee combat.
Psychic: Literally just a Wizard again. How did they get away with this
Spiritualist: For when you wanted to play a Hunter but your animal companion is f$*#ing dead.
I hope this helped
The Arcanist and Cleric are a good point I didn't consider; making them charisma-based would certainly have an impact on their overall power level. I would say those classes are the exception rather than the rule, however. An Inquisitor like the OP is asking about gets very little from pumping charisma over wisdom, especially since a face-oriented Inquisitor can just take the conversion inquisition.
An interesting idea thematically to be sure; one thing I will say though, is that in terms of first party Pathfinder there is essentially just one way to build a gunslinger. Four DPR machines that contribute basically nothing else makes for very dull and clunky combats in my experience.
Spheres of Might might be worth a look; I've played with it before with great success, you can get a lot more build variety out of your martial characters with it. Something worth considering at least.
Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.