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Zorgus

Apraham Lincoln's page

258 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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I let players have max hit points to prevent thge absurdities of a mage being able to out hp a fighter (rare but possible) I also let the monsters have max hitpoints as my group is fairly optimized and adds some threat back. Sure maxes those low cr/high hit dice animals a fair bit scarier


Tyrannical wrote:

#Sibylline General

Seems fairly balanced to me, though I'd wager that an Oracle's Mystery and 2 Revelations are equal to a Warpeiest's Blessing (given that there's no access to mystery spells)? I think you'd be able to squeeze in a single Blessing, perhaps a mechanic that matches blessings with mysteries? (such as repose/juju, darkness/lunar, death/bones). Divine classes aren't my specialty though (unless nature based), so what do others think?

I think its getting 4 revelations thru its mystery which matches up well with the 4 abilities you get with blessings.

Seems like straight swaps from a prepared divine to a spontaneous one, nice and balanced, but its late here so will look more in the morning but overall looks good


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Gonna pass on this spot for a few days El. Next in queue is up. Sorry I haven't been around, but I did want to say I thought the Muse-touched Bard was a thematically nice concept and mechanically elegant. ;)

Why thank you :)


Seeing as i had same idea as tyranical for a bar room brawler type put me up next for an arcanist/druid, name to be decided.


Sorry to hear you go Elghinn but fresh pastures await. Good luck and have fun :) (although at the rate things are going 500 posts wont be long ;))

1 question, will the wiki still be up for editing and additions?


Tyrannical wrote:
Apraham Lincoln wrote:

On a different note, the next up for me is the tavern knight, a brawler skald

I already have dibs on Brawler/Skald, the Bar Brawler. I think we had the same idea here~

OK, will back burner that one then. back to the drawing board :)


On a different note, the next up for me is the tavern knight, a brawler skald


It might look like this

Beastkins Frenzy (su) At 2nd level, a beastkin warrior chooses one of the natural attack forms bellow. These can be activated as a swift action a number of times a day equal to his level and last for a minute. (this would mean you can activate it in a polymorph form and not lose it as a permanent feature like the various bloodline powers that allow you to grow claws)

Gore (p/s)
Bite (p)
2 Claws (s)
Tail (b)
Hooves (b)

These do the same damage as the brawlers unarmed damage for his level apart from claws that do damage as 4 levels lower (because there are 2).
He also gain multiattack as a bonus feat without having to meet the prerequisites.

At 8th level these progress further and gain an additional bonus

Gore gains the powerful charge ability
Bite gains bleed 1 (stacking upto 4)
2 claws now do damage at his full brawler level
Tail gains trip
Hooves gains the trample ability

At 15th level these do damage as tho he were a large creature (allows to get imp nat attack earlier in his career)

This replaces brawlers flurry and close weapon mastery

Feral transformation might have to change a bit as moving the natural attacks out of it.
Bull allows gives you charge through difficult terrain
Monkey gives you a climb speed equal to half you land speed and makes you tail prehensile (if possessed)
Snake gains the constrict ability
Stag gains woodland stride ability
Tiger gains hide in plain sight ability
Wolf gains improved trip and greater trip feats


Noro wrote:

How about simply replacing Two weapon fighting with Multiattack in Flurry?

Quote:
...and have all natural attacks do same damage as brawler damage for the level.
That still seems pointless unless we remove unarmed damage altogether and give unlimited duration to natural attacks. Which is an option, I suppose.

Multi attack for TWF seems workable

Problem is not all of the forms grant a natural attack. I spose you could choose a natural attack to allways have suchs as claws or gore or bite or tail slap or hooves so that the combination of a natural attack and multi attack would be about the same as twf. Gain a rider to the attack when you would get itwf (such as trample or powerful charge, poison, bleed, trip (2 claws is already its own rider i guess)) and imp natural attack when you would get gtwf. Then if the damage was the same as brawlers damage that would work out.


Only the tiger form grants claw attacks as far as i can see. The rules for using natural attacks as off-hand or iterative attacks is too complicated to work into an archetype. Better to leave as 2ndary and grant multi attack as a bonus feat (and bypassing pre-requisites) somewhere and have all natural attacks do same damage as brawler damage for the level. Claws do more damage than unarmed but cant be used in iteratives as thats the trade off but i dont think there is a need to treat as large.


Lindley Court wrote:
** spoiler omitted **...

I like the abilites and it doesnt seem un-balanced

I am kind fo thinking that if the secondary were based around the magus-eldritch scion archetype it would work almost the same but have a more focused spell list, bloodline feats and allow full bab and d10


Noro wrote:

Beastskin Warrior:

** spoiler omitted **...

Full bab is standard for brawler primary.

What is you reasoning for large brawler damage on natural attacks? Would it stack with imp natural attack?
I am thinking that any natural attacks would be secondary attacks as not able to use in brawlers flurry, unless this in intended to work with feral combat training.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

#Muse-Touched Bard

Revised Inspiration entry.

Inspiration (Ex): At 1st level, a muse-touched bard gains the investigator’s inspiration ability, but is changed in the following ways. The muse-touched bard uses his Charisma instead of his Intelligence to determine his inspiration pool. He can use inspiration on any Perform skills checks and any skill checks where he can use versatile performance without expending a use of inspiration, provided he is trained in the perform skill.

In addition, a muse-touched bard of 7th level or higher can gain temporary access to masterpieces or greater access to and spells. Once per day as a swift action, the muse-touched bard can learn a single spell from the bard, cleric, or sorcerer/wizard spell list and add it to his list of spells known, or gain a masterpiece of his choice. This exceeds his normal number of spells known. The muse-touched bard must spend a number of inspiration points equal to the spell’s level (minimum 1) or the equivalent spell level cost described in masterpiece’s description. The spell or masterpiece spell slot cost must be of a level that the muse-touched bard can cast. For example, if a muse-touched bard wants to gain the use of the symphony of the Elysian heart masterpiece, she must spend 3 points of inspiration, as the masterpiece requires the cost of a 3rd-level spell.

This ability replaces bardic knowledge.

Looks good


Come and have a look over at the Multi Class Archetype thread. This is the kind of thing done all the time and is the main focus.


Apraham Lincoln wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

I think we can go with this.

** spoiler omitted **...

Regarding inspiration cost for masterpieces, the masterpiece description includes a level of spell that could be lost to learn knowledge of it. I was kind of using that as a guide as it has a direct correlation with spells known and gaining them thru insp points.

I would prefer normal spells cast and less spells known over less spells cast and normal spells known. Allows rooms for inspiration use

other than that i think its good to go. unless anyone else has some input?


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

I think we can go with this.

** spoiler omitted **...

Regarding inspiration cost for masterpieces, the masterpiece description includes a level of spell that could be lost to learn knowledge of it. I was kind of using that as a guide as it has a direct correlation with spells known and gaining them thru insp points. other than that i think its good to go. unless anyone else has some input?


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

#Muse-Touched Bard

I think we could allow Versatile Performance to be used to select certain investigator talents that complement the MCA inplace of a versatile performance. Much like how we let an Alc/Rog select rogue talents in place of discoveries, etc.

I think the following talents fit your concept and flavor.

Alchemist Discovery (enhance potion, eternal potion, and extend potion only)
Applied Engineering
Device Talent
Hidden Agendas
Inspirational Expertise
Inspired Intelligence
Item Lore
Rogue Talent (need to provide a limited choice here)
Tenacious Inspiration,
Unconventional Inspiration
Underworld Inspiration

I can see no problem with that as its only adding options


I could have swore i saw a post from you elghinn but is no longer here but ill respond as back as i can remember.

Losing spells known is made up for the fact he can get more thru inspiration. The ability is delayed until 7th level as the progression of inspiration points is skewed firmly towards 1st level (although thinking about it, it could start at 1st as even with more spells known he doesnt get that many spells per day that early)


Muse-touched Bard

Some bards train hard at their craft, some bluff their way along and some are lucky. A rare few are just touched with genius. Never settling on any one medium exclusively, every piece they create reflects some part of the world.

Muse-touched Bard:
Primary: Bard
Secondary: Investigator

Alignment: Any

Hit Dice: d8

Bonus Skills and Ranks: A Muse-touched Bard may select three investigator skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal bard class skills. The Muse-touched Bard gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.

Spells: A Muse-touched Bard knows one less spell per spell level (apart from cantrips) than normal for a bard of his level. This is shown on Table: Muse-Touched Bards Spells Known.

Inspiration (Ex): This ability is the same as the investigator ability of the same name except as noted here. He uses his charisma modifier instead of intelligence when determining how many inspiration points he has. The Muse-touched Bard can use inspiration on any Perform skills checks and any skill checks where he is able to use versatile performance, without expending a use of inspiration, provided he's trained in the perform skill.

Additionally, at 7th level, a Muse-touched bard can gain temporary knowledge of masterpieces or extra spells known. As a swift action, he can expend a number of inspiration points equal to its spell level (minimum 1) to learn a masterpiece he qualifies for or to add a spell from the bard, cleric, or sorcerer/wizard spell list as if it were one of his Muse-touched Bard’s spells known of the same level. He retains the masterpiece and the extra spells known until he refreshes his inspiration pool.

This replaces the loss of spells known of a bard and bardic knowledge.

Versatile Performance (Ex): This is the same as the bard ability except as noted here. A Muse-touched Bard gains more versatile performances at 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter.

Additionally he can choose from the following 3 extra types of versatile performance; Contraptions (Disable device, Knowledge (Engineering)), Painting (Linguistics, Perception), Sculpture (Appraise, Use Magic Device).

This modifies the versatile performance of a bard and replaces well-versed and lore master.

Amazing Inspiration (Ex): At 10th level, a Muse-touched Bard gains the Amazing Inspiration investigator talent.
This replaces Jack-of-all-trades

Table Muse-touched Bard:

Table: Muse-touched Bard
Class Base Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Bardic Performance, cantrips, countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspiration (1d6), inspire courage +1 1
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Versatile performance 2
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Inspire competence +2 3
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 3 1
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Inspire courage +2, Versatile performance 4 2
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Suggestion 4 3
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Inspire competence +3 4 3 1
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Dirge of doom, Versatile performance 4 4 2
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Inspire Greatness 5 4 3
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Amazing Inspiration (1d8) 5 4 3 1
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Inspire competence +4, Inspire courage+3, Versatile performance 5 4 4 2
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Soothing Performance 5 5 4 3
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 5 5 4 3 1
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Frightening tune, Versatile performance 5 5 4 4 2
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Inspire competence +5, inspire heroics 5 5 5 4 3
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 5 5 5 4 3 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Inspire courage +4, Versatile performance 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Mass suggestion 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Inspire competence +6 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Amazing Inspiration (2d8), Deadly Performance, Versatile performance 5 5 5 5 5 5

Table: Muse-touched Bard Spells Known:

Table: Muse-touched Bard Spells Known
Class Spells Known
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st 4 1
2nd 5 2
3rd 6 3
4th 6 3 1
5th 6 3 2
6th 6 3 3
7th 6 4 3 1
8th 6 4 3 2
9th 6 4 3 3
10th 6 4 4 3 1
11th 6 5 4 3 2
12th 6 5 4 3 3
13th 6 5 4 4 3 1
14th 6 5 5 4 3 2
15th 6 5 5 4 3 3
16th 6 5 5 4 4 3 1
17th 6 5 5 5 4 3 2
18th 6 5 5 5 4 3 3
19th 6 5 5 5 4 4 3
20th 6 5 5 5 5 4 4


With an inquisitor you could go zen archer monk for ranged or a wild shaping druid. both work of wisdom so there is some synergy there.


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

Question in another thread:

Guess this would be a question for the MCA crew ... is it possible to take eldritch heritage (harmonics bloodline) as a sorcerer? I have an idea for a sorcerer and this would fit the bill perfectly.

Have replied a yes with gm approval as is homebrew and not official pathfinder


Well the eldritch heritage feat states that is musnt be a bloodline you already have, suggesting that sorcerors can select it. Harmonics isn't a wildblooded archetype so it could be chosen. However since it is a homebrew creation it really is down to your gm whether or not to allows this bloodline at all. If they do then it seems a legitimate choice for eldritch heritage.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

How's this? Need a good name though.

Most of the new exploits are lifted right from the Cyphermage PrC. We can ditch anything you feel doesn't fit, though i think they all pretty much do.

** spoiler omitted **...

Looks pretty good and balanced, cant see anything that even looks like a red flag :)


JonathonWilder wrote:

Espial Voyageur (Inv/Brd)

I will consider a flavor text and post it tomorrow or Monday if I get the chance.

Basically though I was considering an adaptive traveller in search of items, lore, and knowledge of ancient places. One who uses his magic and inspired talent to get to where he wishes, no matter the challenges or obstacles in his way. A skillful spellcaster seeking understanding and lost things, learning that which others have given up on.

Perhaps giving up everything alchemy related and a few other abilities, keeping inspiration abilities, and adding a more limited spell list made up of mostly divination and and other bard spells... as well as access to travel related spells. Hopefully with access to some 5th level spells as well at least.

I'm working on a bard/investigator so i hope i dont step on your toes but judging from your flavour blurb i dont think so. Im thinking of a muse-touched bard, using inspiration for performaces and expanding versatile performance.

If this is an issue i can put on the back-burner and work on something else :)


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Apraham Lincoln wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

How's This? Note level = BAB while raging.

** spoiler omitted **...

For furious fervour, seeing as a standard WP gets half level +wis and this gets 2xlevel +con, using just 1 round to quick cast seems too good, maybe 2 or even 3 rounds of rage to quick cast would be more balanced.

I agree, far more rounds of rage than fervor. Fervor = 10 + 5 (Wis 20) = 15. Rage = 4 +5 Con (Con 20) +2/level (2-20) = 4 +38 +5= 47.

So I propose a cost of 1 round of rage per level of spell, OR 1 ropund of rage per 2 spell levels (1 rnd = 1st/2nd, 2 rnds = 3rd/4th, 3 rnds = 5th/6th). I think this latter one would work best, though we could go 1 round per level?

I think 1 round per spell level is more elegant and easier to remember. With 40+ rounds of rage at high level thats quick casting close to 2 spells of every level he can cast.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

How's This? Note level = BAB while raging.

** spoiler omitted **...

For furious fervour, seeing as a standard WP gets half level +wis and this gets 2xlevel +con, using just 1 round to quick cast seems too good, maybe 2 or even 3 rounds of rage to quick cast would be more balanced.


How does the strangler archetype for brawlers work out for crushing builds i wonder. 2 levels gets you 2d6 sneak in a grapple (which always applies for this archetype)


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

They are? How did that happen? (looks) Yup, I guess they are. Looks like its only the barbarian MCAS that we've done that with. Well, let's go d10 then.

What does everyone else think on the the whole HD issue, should they coincide with casting and BAB or shall we have some anomalies like this MCA, the Furious Fist and the Rage Priest? Feedback is welcome.

I think that if you are d10 and full bab then you should be 1/3 casting (1-4) like paladin, ranger and bloodrager.

d8 and 3/4 bab would be 2/3 casting (1-6) if arcane and maybe full casting (1-9) if divine


Looking good, like the changes


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

Sounds good. We'll await OSW's new MCA, and in the mean time, here's mine. It's quite polished, as I've had it in the wings for quite a few months, just needed some tweaks when the official ACG came out.

And just so you know, there will be no name change. This is based on an old multiclass character and this is the best name for him I can come up with, plus I like it. :D

** spoiler omitted **...

Im assuming its only the maths that is out on arcane res boosting caster level on the example of wand of cure light wounds/potion.

Resourceful casting exploit and consume spells exploit doesnt look right. Burn a 2nd level spell for 2 AR and cast a 2 2nd levels spells for 2 AR?

Instead of storing energy like a ring of spellstoring, why not use the existing mechanic of gaining AR and using to cast spells? More options but maybe less exotic spells (divine and the like)

But does look nice and balanced :)


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

#Invective Marshall

@Tyrannical - rage powers are still there (bonus feat OR rage power) and Rousing Cry/Raging Song works kinda like Skald.

@ Generally: Thematically I'm still seeing a lot of overlap but little distinction between Tactician and Raging Song. Two different command styles. But I guess that's ok. I'd just like to see a Cav/Skald that mulched Raging Song and Tactician together in a blender.

How were you thinking OSW? Could still be done, but I'd need some idea what you were looking for.

Inspired Rage song is still there, just more of an induced heroic rage - thus renaming it Induced Heroism. Still functions like Inspired Rage. And yes, bonus feat OR rage power.

I think we can still tweak Ape's Order just a bit and it'll be good to go. Just need to see what Ape thinks.

Id like to see the tactician abilities still there, there is no reason they shouldnt work together, its kinda the reason of this mca. He is less of a leader and more of a driver.

Would renaming bonus feats to rage power (thereby allowing to pick up extra rage powers thru other feat expenditure) be too much?

Here is re-jigged order which should still be a choice for other cavs

Order of the Lower Ranks:

Trainers and leaders of the rank and file troops, cavaliers of this order are a vital link between the officer class and the soldiers who will be living or dying depending on their command. They know that it sometimes takes more than a rousing speech to get half-starved and exhausted men to charge into a breach. Being close to death allows them a certain bluntness about their words and actions.
Edicts: Although you may be taken into the confidence of a captain or general, never forget you are a rank and file troop. You do not socialize with those above your station, neither do you seek elevation.

Challenge: Whenever an order of the lower ranks issues a challenge (or uses the insulting challenge raging song), he receives a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls against the target of his challenge, if the target is an intelligent creature that is either larger than him or on higher ground (including mounted targets if he is not mounted). This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the cavalier possesses (to a maximum of +5 at 17th level).

Skills: An order of the lower ranks cavalier adds Perform (Insults) (CHA) and Survival (WIS) to his list of class skills. In addition he may substitute his total skill bonus in Perform (Insults) in place of his skill bonus for Intimidate (CHA) and Handle Animal (CHA)

Order Abilities: A cavalier who belongs to the order of lower ranks gains the following abilities as he increases in level.

Quick March (Ex): A cavalier can invigorate his allies to move faster without suffering from fatigue. By expending a swift action each turn (shouting and haranguing), the cavalier invigorates allies within 60 feet, who may hustle for the next hour; this movement counts as a walk (not a hustle) for the purpose of accruing nonlethal damage and fatigue. He may do this once a day at 2nd level, twice a day at 8th level and 3 times a day at 15th level. He also gains endurance as a bonus feat.

Hold the Line (Ex): At 8th level, the cavalier can make 2 extra attacks of opportunity a turn, but these can only be made against an enemy who tries to move through his threatened space or who tries a bull rush, overrun or trample manoeuvre. He gains a +2 bonus to hit on attacks of opportunity made this way. If he successfully strikes his target, allies who also threaten may make a free attack of opportunity against the same target.

Walking Wounded (Ex): At 15th level, a cavalier of the lower ranks gains Die hard and Deathless Initiate as bonus feats even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites (If he already has Die Hard he instead gets Deathless Initiate and Deathless Master as bonus feats instead). He may expend a use of tactician to grant his allies the benefits of the Die Hard, Deathless Initiate (and Deathless Master if possessed) feats instead of teamwork feats. If he expends a use of Quick March he also grants the use of these feats but only to hustle or march for the duration of Quick March.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

But are soldier's really scared ("shaken") by their drill instructors/CO's by calling them maggots, etc? I get what you're getting at, but the words and insults they use are meant to motivate, not frighten them.

As to the mechanics, why are we giving the shaken condition when the original version doesn't give a condition. Flavor-wise, sure it might fit, but does it balance anything? I suppose making it so that its not better than the skald is a valid point.

However, I would propose that the Shaken effect only apply to the Inspired Rage song (as it is like the rage ability). Thoughts?

As to the Order, I've reworked swaps, etc, and have no dead levels. Leaving Tactician suite, bonus feats, and the order abilities untouched. Look at the Herald of the March. He's got many performances and some challenge ability left too. The IM is swapping out all of challenge, but keeps a version that costs rounds instead. If we replace the Quick March ability with something else, then its won't be redundant. Maybe granting the Run feat?

To be honest, the shaken condition was the last thing i did to the class and may have been an adjustment too much. It can work either with or without that mechanic. Sure the words can motivate in the short time but in the long term no one like being shouted at to work more.

The extra order is there mostly for fluff. I was trying to work some a version of versatile performance into this mca and realized i could kind of introduce it thru t an order. True this mca gives up all order abilities but keeps the skills and challanege. The order should be balanced enough that any cavalier might want to take it, and also allows the IM to choose another order if desired broadening choice for the player. The order abilites deliberatly (as much as they can) mirror some of the IM abilities

I was thinking being able to challenge on top of raging song was too strong so i made them mutually exclusive to each other

WIth the dead levels, there is not really much you can do with a cavalier which itself has many dead levels :/


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

# Invective Marshal

Nice flavor.

A few comments:

* Lots of dead levels in there.

* Raging Song replaces the Order 2nd level ability, but Order of the Lower Ranks has a 2nd level ability?!?!

- I'd also rename the ability to Invective Cry or similar.

- Seeing as the Skald doesn't impart any condition from their Raging Song, I'm not sure the shaken condition is necessary here. Having said that, like the Bloodrager casting in Medium armor the Skald NOT leaving her allies fatigued is completely ridonkulous.

* Without bonus teamwork feats I don't see the point of Tactician - it also feels like Tactician is a thematic double up with Raging Song.

Some dead levels could be moved around sure, give a little here, take a little there. Uncanny dodge could move to 3, song of strength to 7. When you look at the cavalier table and take out the extra challenge a day it has the same number of dead levels.

The order is there to flesh things out a bit. Any cavalier could take the order of the lower ranks if they wanted. Most of the order abilities (which the IM gives them all up) replicate to some degree the raging songs. All the IM gets from the order is the challenge adjustment (they would get the same challenge adjustment if they took another order) and the skills.

The shaken condition was a nod to not making this strictly better than a skald and i thought the shaken condition would be appropriate over fatigued. You have just had an ally telling you are a worthless maggot and to get in there and fight, just one more thing might set you off.

The tactician ability (all 3 levels) come with team work feats. As many as a cavalier gets for free, 3.


Invective Marshal

Some say sailors are course or that soldiers have no sense of tact or decorum. If so it’s because they have been trained by an Invective Marshal. A more foul string of insults and expletives has not been heard, enough to make a goblin blush or put a ghoul of its lunch. Common among the goblin and orc tribes these rabble-rousers can rouse their comrades to greatness (often from the back). Their common clashes have led some dwarves to take up this route as being surly and dour seems to be a benefit rather than a hindrance. Most Invective marshals belong to the Order of the Lower Ranks but may choose from other orders (if they are allowed in).

Invective Marshal:

Primary: Cavalier

Secondary: Skald

Alignment: Any

Hit Dice: d10

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The Invective Marshal may select three skald skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal cavalier class skills. The Invective Marshal gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.

Raging Song (Su): An invective marshal learns how to goad his allies to feats of strength and ferocity. This is the same as the skald ability of the same name except as noted here and functions at the same level. His performance is a long string of personal insults and outlandish threats. When he finishes his raging song, any affected allies, but not the Invective Marshal himself, are shaken for a number of rounds equal to the rounds of raging song used. This will stack with the shaken condition from other sources but not the frightened condition. This raging song ability is language dependant. He gains the following performances at the indicated levels.

Insulting Challenge (Ex): At 1st level an Invective Marshall lets the burning bile of his curses drive home his blows. This functions as the challenge ability of a cavalier of his level except it only lasts as long as he can maintain his raging song. Any order abilities or feats that modify the challenge ability of a cavalier modify this ability instead. At 12th level, as long as the target is within the threatened area of the invective marshal, it takes a –2 penalty to its AC from attacks made by anyone other than the invective marshal. This song costs him 2 rounds of raging song for every round he wishes to maintain it.

Song of Marching (Su): At 1st level an Invective Marshall learns the skald ability of the same name.

Inspired Rage (Su): At 2nd level he learns the skald ability of the same name.

Song of Strength (Su): At 6th level he learns the skald ability of the same name.

Dirge of Doom (Su): At 11th level he learns the skald ability of the same name.

Song of the Fallen (Su): At 15th level he learns the skald ability of the same name.

This ability and the various raging songs replace the challenge, mount, 2nd level order ability, cavalier’s charge, mighty charge, demanding challenge and 15th level order abilities of a cavalier.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Sometimes someone will take offence at some of his insults. Consequently an invective marshal has learned to watch his back. This functions as the skald ability of the same name. At 8th level this improves to Improved Uncanny Dodge. This replaces expert trainer and the 8th level order ability.

Tirade (Ex): Just hearing the tirade from the invective marshal is enough to inspire his allies. This functions as the banner ability except as noted here. This ability does not rely on sight but as long as his allies can hear his raging song (whether or not they are affected by the song or not) and within 30 feet they gain the benefits of this ability. This modifies the banner ability of a cavalier.

Rage Power (Ex): At 6th level and every 6 levels afterwards, an invective marshal learns a rage power. This functions as the skald power of the same name. This replaces the bonus feats of a cavalier.

Greater Tirade (Ex): This functions as the greater banner ability of a cavalier except as noted here. As with tirade this ability relies on his allies hearing his raging song (whether they are affected by it or not) and within 30 feet. He can spend a standard action to unleash a particularly vile insult, granting all allies within 60 feet an additional saving throw against any one spell or effect that is targeting them. This save is made at the original DC. Spells and effects that do not allow saving throws are unaffected by this ability. An ally cannot benefit from this ability more than once per day. This modifies the greater banner ability of a cavalier.

Master Skald (Su): This functions exactly as the skald ability of the same name. This replaces Supreme Charge.

Order of the Lower Ranks:

Trainers and leaders of the rank and file troops, cavaliers of this order are a vital link between the officer class and the soldiers who will be living or dying depending on their command. They know that it sometimes takes more than a rousing speech to get half-starved and exhausted men to charge into a breach. Being close to death allows them a certain bluntness about their words and actions.

Edicts: Although you may be taken into the confidence of a captain or general, never forget you are a rank and file troop. You do not socialize with those above your station, neither do you seek elevation.

Challenge: Whenever an order of the lower ranks issues a challenge (or uses the insulting challenge raging song), he receives a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls against the target of his challenge, if the target is an intelligent creature that is either larger than him or on higher ground (including mounted targets if he is not mounted). This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the cavalier possesses (to a maximum of +5 at 17th level).

Skills: An order of the lower ranks cavalier adds Perform (Insults) (CHA) and Survival (WIS) to his list of class skills. In addition he may substitute his total skill bonus in Perform (Insults) in place of his skill bonus for Intimidate (CHA) and Handle Animal (CHA)

Order Abilities: A cavalier who belongs to the order of lower ranks gains the following abilities as he increases in level.

Quick March (Ex): A cavalier can invigorate his allies to move faster without suffering from fatigue. By expending a swift action each turn (shouting and haranguing), the cavalier invigorates allies within 60 feet, who may hustle for the next hour; this movement counts as a walk (not a hustle) for the purpose of accruing nonlethal damage and fatigue. He may do this once a day at 2nd level, twice a day at 8th level and 3 times a day at 15th level.

Walking Wounded (Ex): At 8th level, a cavalier of the lower ranks can make 2 move actions if he is staggered. If he uses his Quick March ability, his allies can hustle even if they are disabled (at 0 hit points) without taking further damage.

Hold the Line (Ex): At 15th level, the cavalier can make 2 extra attacks of opportunity a turn, but these can only be made against an enemy who tries to move through his threatened space or who tries a bull rush, overrun or trample manoeuvre. He gains a +2 bonus to hit on attacks of opportunity made this way. If he successfully strikes his target, allies who also threaten may make a free attack of opportunity against the same target.

Table Invective Marshal:

Table: Invective Marshal
Class Base Fort Ref Will
Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Insulting Challenge; Order; Raging Song; Song of Marching; Tactician
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Inspired Rage +1(+2Str/Con)
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Inspired Rage +2; Uncanny Dodge
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Tirade
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Rage Power; Song of Strength
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Improved Uncanny Dodge; Inspired Rage +3 (+4 Str/Con)
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Greater Tactician
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Dirge of Doom
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Inspired Rage +4; Rage Power
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Greater Tirade
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Song of the Fallen
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Inspired Rage +5 (+6 Str/Con)
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Master Tactician
18th +18/+8/+13/+3 +11 +6 +6 Rage Power
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Inspired Rage +6; Master Skald


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

# Totem Rager

I sort of agree with Noro on #3 - 10 ft. is better than adjacent. I'm not sure there is much point to 10'/level - it makes it kinda superfluous after 3rd level or so... I would just make it 10 ft full stop. Makes a good reason for foes to try to move them apart... I'm easy though - whatever you guys reckon.

I think expending extra rage rounds for the TR to also rage is a good mechanical concept, but the ability for both the TR AND the Rage Eidolon to rage makes the Rage Eidolon as an expression of rage completely watered down thematically/flavourwise. I really liked the idea that the TR is a warrior whose entire rage is exemplified and embodied by the rage eidolon. But again, its Noro's concept. ;)

It doesnt need the distance limiter really. It could be that as long as the eidolon and the TR are threatening the same creature he also gains the benefits, allowing for some flanking and whatnot


Noro wrote:

Waking up now...

First, I vote more evo points. Duration is short enough already.

Question: with the aspect, do all bloodline powers automatically work on both?

Wish: I still want the eidolon to deliver some other kind of attack spells. At least limited to one category like ray or line spells.
And lets drop the "in contact" requirement for touch spells. It wouldnt be tactically productive to always go back to the TR for new spells during combat.

And I still dont like the rejuvenate eidolon spells. Can we make Life conduit into a class ability? Its duration is a little less than half the daily duration of the eidolon, so if it was usable once every 2nd round, that didnt seem much of an extra power.

I vote for split duration, the ferocious mount and ferocious beast rage powers already use this formula.

The life link summoner ability should fit this bill as it will keep your eidolon alive anyways and i feel a little uncomfortable about using your pet to heal yourself. If we add a rules clause that the the 1st time you summon your eidolon after a full rest (and full use of rage rounds)it has full hit points should fill the role of eidolon healing and still keeping it alive on the battlefield.

As for casting through pet, how about a variation on or tweak to the minor magic and related evolutions that instead of the list provided allows the pet to cast one of the TRs spells, limited by level and to what the TR knows and times per day


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

OK, how's this?

** spoiler omitted **...

Should totem magic add to the spell list as opposed to spells known? 13 extra spells known is a lot to a bloodrager. maybe they could replace the bloodline spells?


The only problem i see with the heal on the TR healing the eidolon half the ammount is when the TR is at max hps (might be a common occurance as the eidolon might be doing most of the fighting) How about spill over or the summoner life-link ability?


#Totem rager

There are other biped animals that people might want to use, specifically the dinos. I dont think wands will be a problem because of the rage clause and you could tweak the no attacks = dismissal to be no attacks with a primary natural weapon (or trample for trampling types)
Flying birds have typically been familiars as they dont make the best combat critters, big birds such as ostriches could still be bipeds with claws = talons (unless there is a rules bug here im not aware of)
Does the eidolon suffer from fatigue from rage or when re-summoned from a rage later in the same day?
I think bloodrage is in the right place for greater bloodrage as it comes with bloodcasting too.

You could limit the evolutions to the same "natural" evos as similar to the wild caller archetype and then open up others through whichever bloodline is choosen (undead get undead, elemental get elemental attack etc...)


Im away for the weekend, please bump me done a place and will post on sunday night/monday morning whenever is appropriate


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
...

Spirit weapon is rather good but seems more fighter-y than cavalier-y. I agree that it could follow a standard damage for all weapons almost like the warpriest damage progression (or weapon damage, whichever is greater). It should gain established magic abilites or feats instead of blanker adjustment or you might and up with some corner case weapons that become extreme.

Its more work but perhaps a magic ability and/or free feat for each mystery would work, that way could be tailored to suit each weapon/mystery combo. Ill try and get some examples up this afternoon


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
...

Spirit instructor could be a bonus to some kind of craft or profession ability that is tied to the element but also adds to the bonus of allies. For example if a SKn were leading a band of road-builders he could buff them all, being a more efficient road building team.

Examples of mystery/skills combos could be
Battle = craft weapon/armour or profession soldier or labourer
Bones = heal or profession undertaker
flames = acrobatics or profession blacksmith
life = heal or know nature
lore = spellcraft or knowledge any
mammoth = survival or intimidate
nature = know nature or survival
stone = profession blacksmith or craft or knowledge dungeoneering
waves = diplomacy or sense motive
wind = bluff or acrobatics and fly

Spirit wave, i spose 6d6 once a day at 14th level isant a real biggie but i think the numbers need tweaking here and there so they are more equal to each other (6d6 fire is not equal to 6d6 force or 6d6 mental(untyped?) and shaken) unless its used to balance other differences in the mysteries


#Spirit Knight

I like the flavour, theme and direction this is going but im a little concerned about spirit wave and spirit instructor. They are both very good abilities, far superior to what they are replacing and the weapon one particularly stacks well with other enchants as its effecting a different part of most magic weapons. I just thinking its too much on top of an otherwise balanced approach. I catch myself thinking "if it didnt have those 2 abilities, would i still play one?" and i think i still would.


If you have only 1 attack and cant full attack, there is no off-handededness so no penalties to hit or damage. Source elludes me for the moment but im 95% sure that is the case (i always fail on a 1)


2nd choice for me (because ive been quiet on here for a couple of weeks and didnt even know there were limits yet ;) )

1st up Invective marshal (cav/ska)
2nd =>name to be decided<= pally/warpriest


JonathonWilder wrote:
Taco Man wrote:

All-righty-O (Cracks knuckles)

Infernal Bureaucrat
I'm sorry but this MCA seems to almost demand some sort of bonus to Bluff, also maybe Diplomacy... perhaps adding this into Devil's Tongue?

I agree with this, especially as there are so many linguistic feats included, plus you are not getting the extra languages known for the bonus points (i think you only get them for each skill point invested) and it isant a super skill like perception that demands being maxed out. Diplomacy and bluff are both good skills tho and im not sure this is supposed to be more bluff-y than a bard or rogue. Maybe limiting any bluff/diplomacy bonus against lawful targets/"officials"?

What does domain replace from the investigator? Maybe each domain power could replace an investigator talent?

Im not adverse to inverted judgements but do want to see how they play out. In some cases an equivalent de-buff is better than the opposed buff and some dont make sense (fast healing?)


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

And finally, here's my take on Jon's Grim Seeker (sorry, dropped the second "m". I went with a Sla/Inq combo.

** spoiler omitted **...

Like it, seems balanced and holistic.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

OK, here's the 3/4 BAB, 3/4 spell version of the Witchslayer. As much as it may sound good, it has nothing to do with slaying witches. just saying.

** spoiler omitted **...

Witchslayer has astute phys blurb. Looks good to me but you dont include what was traded out for each ability.


Tyrannical wrote:
Apraham Lincoln wrote:

Im definitely up for a cav/ska as my 1st pick, 1st draft done and ditched, 2nd draft done and ditched. On 3rd draft now :P

I think I have Cav/Ska taken (Flag Bearer), but it could easily become Ska/Cav.

From the name i dont think there will be much overlap. It will be intersting to see what different spaces we come up with for 2 similar mcas :)


Im definitely up for a cav/ska as my 1st pick, 1st draft done and ditched, 2nd draft done and ditched. On 3rd draft now :P

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