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Here's an idea I had for helping the Monk be more of the "Mobile Combat Monster" that they are described to be.

Make Flurry of blows work like this:
-A Monk can use Flurry of blows (which is still a full round action) AND still move up to their speed

-Move "Mobility" from the Monks list of 6th level Bonus Feats to the ones that they can take at level 1.

-If you want to give them an ability to help them hit things how about allowing them to spend 1 point from their Ki pool to add a +1 Enhancement Bonus to hit and damage which lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Monks level + Wisdom Modifier. Four every four levels they gain beyond 4th the enhancement bonus increases by +1. At a +2 Enhancement bonus they can start adding weapon properties to their unarmed strikes. If using an Amulet of Might Fists then they can devote all points spent from their Ki pool to adding weapon properties to their unarmed attacks. (Similar to how a Paladin or Magus use their Bonded weapon abilities).

I'm not going to go into a full blown RAR correct write up for these abilities here but you get the gist of what I'm talking about. The first two suggestions could easily be added/changed in future printings. The Ki pool ability might require more finessing to fit into the Ki pool entry of the CRB.

Personally I feel as thought the monk was a 1st edition class ported to 3.0 and it still carries a lot of baggage from those days. If a new edition of Pathfinder is released I think they should turn the Monk into a straight martial artist class (without alignment restrictions) that specializes in unarmed combat, and make the "Monk" a mystical archetype (with being partial lawful a requirement of the archetype).

I have bESM d20 and bESM 3rd edition.

In my opinion bESM d20 concept was fine. But when mixed with the Attribute system things stopped working so well. Also I really liked the flexibility of the original bESM system, where as the d20 bESM railroads you into taking preset classes for the most part.

I'm actually looking into working in a direction opposite from yours by eliminating the class system in general and going with a strictly Character level driven system where character points are gained at every level to buy everything from BAB, to Hit Dice, to save improvements, ect.

That way you could still get the same D20 feel, but with a system that allows you to completely custom build any character using the Attribute system.

Sorry: Class = Soul Knife
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife

Mindblade is part of its class abilities as is the quick draw ability at level 5.

Perception check vs. the Rogue's slight-of-hand to get the suprise round, otherwise its initiative.

If the victim fails the perception check then its a suprise round and Underhanded counts...

Does Perception even come into play. The Mind Blade is not only undrawn, it is Unformed meaning that it is not even there to be perceived until it is drawn as a free action.

And if we are going to bring the Perception rules into play this brings up other questions. Underhanded grants a +4 bonus to the Sleight of Hand check to conceal the weapon. Since an unformed mind blade is technically not even there does that mean the PC gets an additional +4 bonus (which is untyped) as per the Sleight of Hand skill regarding an extremely small object.

A lot the questions arise from what the mind blade actually is. Technically the Mind Blade isn't even there until the PC draws/forms it, which at 5th level is executed as a free action. And a Free action translates into time as a nearly effortless instantaneous action.

So for me, a weapon that is not there, until the instant that you are attacked with it, would require no perception check on the part of the victim as there is nothing there for them to perceive.

Here is the scenario.

Lets Assume we have a level 3 Rogue/Level 5 Mind Blade
The relevant stuff here is as follows:
-Sneak Attack 2D6
-Rogue Talent: Underhanded
-Ability to Form Light Mind Blade and Throw it 20 feet.
-Ability to Quick Draw the mind blade as a free action as per the mind blade class ability.

Here is the general setup.
-Unsuspecting Victim assumes the PC is unarmed. The PC has no weapons on them. The "Mind blade" is not formed at this time. The NPCs are under the impression that the PC is unarmed.
-The PC then uses "Under Handed" assuming that since the mind blade is not formed, and his victims have already assumed he's unarmed, that would mean that they are not aware of his "hidden weapon".
-The PC will draw his mind blade as a "free action" as per the mind blade quick draw class ability and attack.

Here are the questions:
1.) Since the Victim has assumed that the PC is unarmed (because the mind blade was not initially drawn) and the PC was assumed to have no weapons on them, does that Justify a "Surprise Round" where the victim would be Flatfooted when the PC draws the mind blade and attacks? Remember the Mind Blade is being drawn as a free action.
2.) Does the "Underhanded" talent come into play? Remember that since the PC had no "weapons" on them he was assumed to be unarmed. Is an unformed Mind blade considered a weapon that the Victim was not aware of?

If this all works in theory (which I don't see any reason why it shouldn't) then the situation should play out like this.
-The unsuspecting Victim, is aware that the PC has no weapons on them, is not aware that they are a mind blade, and thus assumes that they are dealing with an unarmed PC.
-The PC, sent to assassinate this victim, has his mind blade, which is unformed until he is ready to strike. When he does strike, the mind blade can be drawn as a free action.
-Once the Mind blade is drawn and combat initiates, the victim is assumed to be caught by surprise as they had assumed the PC had no weapons on them. This would mean that they are flat footed. Also since the PC is using a weapon that the victim was unaware of the PC will deal Maximum Sneak Attack Damage.

Mind you this whole scenario also assumes that you don't need to conceal a weapon that is technically "Not there" until the PC chooses to form it as a free action.

So what do you think: Does it work?

Combine Explosive Missile (min 4th level) Alchemist discovery with the 1st level Gunslinger Deed Ability called: Dead Eye. The deed ability specifies no action that is used to activate this ability, only that you must be firing beyond your weapons first range increment to be eligible to resolve it as a Touch AC attack. Explosive missile specifically states that you can infuse your ammunition with the power of your bomb, load it, and shoot it all as 1 standard action.

In my opinion, it is amazing for the Alchemist/Gunslinger hybrid.

Unearthed Arcana
Page: 58 (Fighter Variant)
Gain: Sneak attack at every odd level (like a rogue)
Lose: Fighter Bonus feats.

Now mind you this was written for 3.5s Fighter which did not have Bravery, Armor Training, or Weapon Training. Since this only effects your fighter bonus feats you could also mix this class variant with most other Fighter archetypes.

So you get what you want. Full BAB, full sneak attack. All you lose is the bonus feats. Just also remember that PF also increased the number of feats you get from 1 per 3 character levels to 1 every other character level.

Enjoy.

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precision damage is not very good because a great number of monsters are immune to it and it does not get multiplied when you crit

Are you playing with 3.5 or Pathfinder rules. Pathfinder removed the immunity to precision based damage from A LOT OF MONSTERS that had it in 3.5. If your DM is still denying you sneak attack damage vs corporeal undead and constructs then THEY ARE DOING IT WRONG.

I will admit that the class needs "work" as most of the Pathfinder changes and classes have given other characters the ability to fill the rogues shoes. Having few skills in Pathfinder, having lower skill point costs, and allowing everyone with ranks in disable device to find and disarm traps hurts. The two poor saves have always hurt.

But here's some information that I think everyone forgets when they say "this class can't do x,y,z on its own so its nerfed and doesn't work" D&D/Pathfinder is a game based on TEAM WORK People b#%&~ about the rogue's "buddy system". Last time I checked, buddy system falls into TEAM WORK.

Personally, and this is my opinion I think the table top gaming community has become contaminated by this MMORPG/World of War Craft/D&D 4E/whatever mentality that if a class can't solo then its sucks. If it can't survive or do its job with minimal to zero support then it sucks. Or that it was designed poorly.

I'm not going to deny the problems with the class. The way the RAW handle Stealth makes it really difficult to play the sneak/scout game anymore. The revision to disable device hurts, and multiple avenue's to trap finding hurt, the NINJA hurts because its a better sneak than the rogue.

But I am sick of the "ROGUE SUCKS PLAY SOMETHING ELSE" bashing.

In case people forgot here's a reminder:
-PATHFINDER may as well have been called D&D 3.75. For the most part everything was designed to be backwards compatible. This means we accepted certain design flaw elements that could be fixed and recognized that some design flaw elements could not be fixed without a heavy revision that would compromise said backwards compatibility.

Personally I remember when Pathfinder gave us the "new rogue" most of us were happy with the improvements. Rogue Talents, higher Hit Die, same skill points but less skills, new favored class mechanic, CAPSTONE. It was like the folks at PAIZO made us a Rogue flavored Sundae, decked out with hot fudge and cherry on top. Now all people do is b$&!* about how much the sundae sucks and needs to be take off the menu.

Here is what is right with the class:
-3/4 BAB with a D8 hit Die
-8+INT skill points per level
-Most Rogue Talents
-Sneak attack and the Pathfinder revision to what is and is not subject to it.

Here's what needs work:
-2 good saves (and I'll say Fortitude). Rogues have always had a weakness vs compulsions, mind effects, ect. They have tricks for getting out of it. Tricks don't mean an automatic good will save. You want to fix the will save issue... ROGUE TALENTS FOR IT.
-The Rogue needs some type of mechanic that allows it to sneak around again because Stealth just isn't doing it. Fix the damn stealth rules and it can start being the point man again.
-I personally believe we need some type of "point pool" mechanic for the Rogue, akin to the whole Ki Pool mechanic. Maybe call it a Luck Pool. Here are some ideas for it:

Luck Pool is equal to 1/2 class level + Charisma. Refills every 24 hours.

Maybe so long as you have 1 point remaining in your luck pool you get the effects of "slippery mind" to help out with that lacking will save.

Also a Luck Pool would let you reroll (for better or worse) when the dice don't go your way.

As a standard action spend 1 luck point and designate 1 opponent for that round who is considered flanked by only you for the purposes of applying sneak attack damage. You are allowed to make 1 attack at your highest base attack bonus vs. this opponent for this round.

Spend 1 luck point to increase your base land speed by 10ft for 1 round.

Spend 1 luck point to add a bonus equal to half class level to your initiative.

Spend 1 luck point to gain an extra move action.

spend 1 luck point to gain a Luck bonus on Acrobatics, Disable Device, Stealth, Perception, ect for 1 round.
(The possibilities are endless for this one)
-Need something to balance the luck pool. Here's an idea. Luck pool is gained at 2nd level instead of evasion. So long as you have at least 1 point in your luck pool you have the evasion class feature, and this qualifies as having evasion for the purposes of feats, prerequisites, ect.
-Here's an idea to help out Sneak attack some more: How about a bonus (insert type here) to hit equal to half your total number of sneak attack dice rounded down. So a 20th level Rogue with 10d6 Sneak attack dice gets a +5 bonus to hit. Guess what +15BAB with a +5 bonus to hit, I think that would equal a minimum or +20 Right.

Mainly the rogue just needs some work. Not a full rebuild. Its not a combat tank. Its a support character. It doesn't need a full BAB and a D10 hit die. What it needs are more tools to do its job. The class is sound. It always has been. The problem is not with the foundation or premise with the class. Its the fact that certain RAW issues have compromised the class and revisions to the base D&D system have compromised the class.

[Making the Rogue relevant]: Hybrid 3.5/Pathfinder skill system. (Opinions Wanted)

The revised skill system in Pathfinder at first seemed like a welcome idea. It greatly simplified the number of skills in the game, seemed to eliminate redundant skills, and gave every class a fair chance at being good in the cross class skill category. Yet over time it seems that this simplification went too far. One particular issue was that of the Rogue, the 3.5 skill monkey, who, in Pathfinder, seems to have been made irrelevant due to the low cost of cross class skills, coupled with the reduction in the number of skills in the game, and the fact that certain skills (Disable Device) were made useable by any class.

So here are some thoughts I've had.
-What if we went back to a larger skill list like in 3.5 but with some important changes

First there will be no return of the Concentration skill as I feel pathfinder's revision of this was a "good idea".

Keep skill Points the same way they are in Pathfinder. In other words we don't revert back to say Fighter 2 + Int x4 at 1st level followed by 2+Int per level afterwards. Just keep it how it is in Pathfinder.

Keep "Cross Class Skill Cost/Ranks" the same as in Pathfinder.

Keep "Class skill" bonus of +3 the same as in Pathfinder.

Return to using the 3.5 skill list with the removal of the Concentration skill as mentioned above.

So here is the "Why behind my reasoning"
-In 3.5 the sheer number of skills made the rogue necessary. While other classes had certain skills they could be good at, only the Rogue had the sheer number of skill points needed to be good at almost every field required to do his job proficiently. Also the separation of certain skills made more sense when these skills were assigned to different classes.

-I believe that Pathfinder fixed the problem with skills when they revised how class skills worked, the cross class skill cost, and the cross class skill rank system. This is why I believe that keeping the Pathfinder skill point per level system is better than reverting to the 3.5 system.

-I also appreciated the removal of the Concentration skill in Pathfinder and making it more of a level check for casters. This did free up valuable skill points for NON-Int-based casters.

So here is an example of the revised skill list:
Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device (includes Open Lock), Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Graphology (Decipher Script & Forgery), Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (all), Move Silently, Linguistics, Perception (Listen, Search, Spot), Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spell Craft, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Rope.
*Please note that certain skills did remain grouped where they made sense.
*Like I said use the PF skill points per level. So a Fighter still gets 2+Int at each level.

Let me know what you think of this idea.

Thanks for the update. I just have one thing to say: This is the same answer that was given almost 2 months ago on June 9th. I'm not trying to be short or impatient but this seems like a cut, copy, paste & edited answer to your question.

Can they give us any reason as to why there has been such a long delay from June.

I understand the High End backers paid a lot of money to get certain perks, like first crack at the play testing. If its behind in development then I understand that.

I, and I'm sure there's other like me, were just waiting for the open play test for the rest of the public. Now we're finding out that the High End backers may not have even had a chance to play test it, and there has been no communication on kick starter or their forum since early June, which means we may not even get a shot the play testing until September.

So we're curious as to why there has been such a delay, when the material will be released to the high end backers and an approximate time as to when those materials will become open to the public for play testing.

Not trying to be rude, just been waiting for 2 months, anticipating this product.

Thanks
AK

Sorry for thread Necromancy...

A general question to anyone out there that funded PURE STEAM on kickstarter or anyone involved in the design/development process of this product: Has there been any additional information released since early June of 2012, shortly after they reached full funding.

I ask because I have not seen any further updates on their website or their message board. Even the kickstarter page has updated recently.

Any information would be appreciated.

Well here we are again. The 3.5 Warlock. I've got some of my own. The ideas I'm presenting at this time are not the finished conversion. It is a rough working draft. I'm looking for feed back, ideas, and input. The goal is to keep the class backwards compatible while still upgrading it and offering some of the class feature options that pathfinder has become known for.

Here's where we are right now:

Hit dice: Upgraded to D8s
BAB: Still a 3/4 BAB class (+15/+10/+5 at 20th level)
Saves: Poor Fortitude and Poor Reflex. Good Will Power.
Skills: (just update these to Pathfinder)
Skill Points: Remain the same.
Number of Invocations: Remains the same 12 by 20th level.
Alignment: Must be Chaotic or Any Evil.

Note: class features marked with a (*) are new class features detailed below.
1st: Eldritch Blast 1D6, Eldritch Curse*, Eldritch Pool*, Eldritch Power*, Invocations (least)
2nd: Eldritch Power*, Eldritch Resistance*
3rd: Damage Reduction 1/(TYPE), Eldritch Blast 2D6
4th: Eldritch Power*, Deceive Item
5th: Eldritch Blast 3D6, Mettle
6th: Eldritch Power*, New Invocations (lesser)
7th: Damage Reduction 2/(TYPE), Eldritch Blast 4D6
8th: Eldritch Power*, Eldritch Resilience 1
9th: Eldritch Blast 5D6
10th: Eldritch Power*, Energy Resistance 5
11th: Damage Reduction 3/(TYPE), Eldritch Blast 6D6, New Invocations (greater)
12th: Eldritch Power*, Improved Eldritch Resistance*
13th: Eldritch Blast 7D6, Eldritch Resilience 3
14th: Eldritch Power*
15th: Damage Reduction 4/(TYPE), Eldritch Blast 8D6, Energy Resistance 10
16th: Eldritch Power*, New Invocations (Grand/Formerly Dark)
17th: Eldritch Blast 9D6
18th: Eldritch Power*, Eldritch Resilience 5
19th: Damage Reduction 5/(TYPE), Eldritch Blast 10D6
20th: Eldritch Perfection*

Some notes:

Any Fiendish reference was removed. (You'll see why in a minute). The the class feature Fiendish Resilience was changed to Eldritch Resilience.

The Eldritch Blast progression was standardized to improve at every odd level. I never understood why they didn't do this in 3.5.

Damage Reduction is no longer set to Cold Iron. More on that below.

So the new stuff
(Mind you these are very rough draft mechanical descriptions of what the abilities are at this point)

Eldritch Curse (Su): Gained at 1st level. Activation: Swift Action. Cost 1 point from Eldritch Pool. Range 60ft. Saving throw: Will power Negates. Saving throw based on 10 + 1/2 Warlock level + Charisma Modifier. Effect: Target takes a -2 penalty on attacks rolls, combat maneuvers, saves, ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls. Duration: 3 rounds + ½ Warlock level (minimum of 1) + Charisma modifier. Once save made opponent cannot be targeted again for 24 hours.

Quote:

Yes the Eldritch Curse is a direct port of the Hexblade curse. Awesome debuff ability. Here it is tied to the Eldritch pool so each use costs you a point. But you still cannot target someone that's already made their save for 24 hours. I've always felt this was an ability the Warlock should have had, but since the Hexblade came out in Complete Warrior before the Warlock in Complete Arcane the warlock never got it.

Eldritch Pool (Su): Gained at 1st level. Points equal to ½ Warlock level (minimum of 1) + Charisma Modifier. Pool is replenished every 24 hours.

-As long as the warlock has at least 1 point remaining in his Eldritch Pool he can use the following spells @ will as spell like abilities: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Ghost Sound, Open Close, Prestidigitation
-Can spend 1 point from his Pool to force an opponent to re-roll any one attack roll, combat maneuver check, skill check, ability check, caster level check or saving throw. The Warlock must accept the result of the re-roll for better or worse. Immediate Action.
-Can spend 1 point from his Pool to reroll any one attack roll, combat maneuver check, skill check, ability check, caster level check or saving throw. The decision to make this reroll must be done before the results of the first roll are revealed and the Warlock must accept the reroll for better or for worse. Only one reroll may be attempted per use of this ability.
-Points can also be spent to activate other class features or abilities

Quote:

The Eldritch Pool: It seems that a lot of the new classes have begun to incorporate this nice mechanic. Part of the decision to go with the Eldritch Pool was to give the Warlock some cantrips, provided he doesn't burn out his pool. Another was to give him a baleful aura of luck vs unluck which plays nicely into the whole Chaos, Blast, and curse theme. Plus it also provides a trigger mechanic upon which to base a lot of his Eldritch Powers

Eldritch Power: Gained at 1st level, 2nd level, and every even level thereafter up to 18th level. Unless otherwise stated any saving throw called for by an Eldritch Power is equal to 10 + 1/2 the Warlock level + Charisma Modifier. Unless otherwise noted any given Eldritch Power cannot be selected more than once. Eldritch Powers are going to be similar in nature to Rogue Talents, Ninja Tricks, Discoveries, Hexes, ect. Its where you can really get to customize the class further. I've given some ideas below. This is where I'm really looking for ideas and feed back to further expand this ability

Some Ideas for Eldritch Powers

The Eldritch Heritiage Feat chain (Eldritch Heritage, Improved Eldritch Heritage, and Greater Eldritch Heritage). For those of you who wanted to be able to customize your heritage with the warlock so that you're not bound to its 3.5 Fiendish or Feyish origins then this is where to go.

Improving your Eldritch Curse with the Improved Curse (-4 penalty), Greater Curse (-6 Penalty), Grand Curse (-8 Penalty) chain to progressively make that debuff hurt even more. Also considering two Eldritch Powers that will allow you to upgrade the duration of your curse from rounds to hours and from hours to days. Possibly even one that would make the curse permanent unless it was successfully removed via dispel magic, remove curse, ect. The caster level for the curse would be equal to the Warlock's level.

Powers that let you further manipulate your Eldritch Blast beyond just the basic blast shape Invocations. An example would be an Eldritch Power that would let you make as many attacks per round with your Eldritch blast as your base attack bonus would allow. Similar in nature to the Alchemist discover Rapid Bombs. Another idea would a power that allowed for Precision Blasting. It would have the prerequisite of knowing a Blast Shape Invocation with an area of effect. You could then select up to a certain number of squares within that area of effect that would not be effected by your Eldritch Blast.

Power that allow you to expand upon your other class abilities. Such as using your Eldritch Resilience (aka fast healing) to Heal others in a limited fashion. Further upgrade your Damage reduction.

Like I said this is the section where I'm really looking for some good ideas and feed back.

Quote:

The reason behind wanting to incorporate the Eldritch Powers is that it makes for a really customizable class. Its amazing the directions you can take the Alchemist or the Rogue in with these abilities. One of the problems with the 3.5 Warlock is that you always felt railroaded by the material into its "Fiendish" background. Here I wanted to remove that but still make the class somewhat customizable.

Eldritch Resistance (Su): Gained 2nd level. Adds Charisma Modifier to saving throws vs. Spells and Spell Like Abilities.

Quote:

Once again this was a Hexblade ability that I felt fit with the general theme of the Warlock, that being someone suffused with Eldritch Power. Is it too much of a leap to say that having that power constantly infusing you, you may eventually build up defenses to it?

Damage Reduction: The only thing I changed about the Damage Reduction is that now you will be able to select from different types when you first get it. So rather than having to take DR/Cold Iron you could also pick from: Magic, Silvered, Mithral, Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos. Once the choice is made it cannot be changed at a later time.

Quote:

Once again this is all about providing class customization options. That way if you don't want your characters background to be tied to Fey origins you're not railroaded into DR/Cold Iron. You have choices.

Mettle (Ex): Gained at 5th level. Applies to Fortitude and Willpower saves with partial or lesser effects. If successful the warlock suffers no effect.

Quote:

: Yes this was another Hexblade ability. It fits with the Warlock. Granted I've abbreviated the ability. If you need a full description you can find it on Google

Energy Resistance: Really nothing has changed with Energy resistance except for the fact that it improves much faster than it did in the 3.5 version. (You resistances improve again at 15th level rather than 20th) That's because I wanted to tie energy Resistance into one of the selectable capstone abilities.

Improved Eldritch Resistance (Su): Gained at 12th level. The Warlock gains spell resistance equal to warlock level + 10.

Quote:

A further improvement upon the 2nd level ability. Now in addition to adding their Charisma modifier to saving throws vs. spells and spell like abilities they also have spell resistance.

.

Eldritch Perfection: This is where the capstone(s) are. When the Warlock hits level 20 he will be able to select from several nice abilities to be the capstones. Here are some working ideas.

Perfect Eldritch Heritage: You gain the 20th level ability out of the Sorcerer blood line you've been following. This is much easier than trying to setup an individual bloodline for every single source of the warlocks power and making them similar the Sorcerer bloodlines but different. I say if you're willing to blow 3 Eldritch Powers and a Capstone then have it. Congratulations, now you can go with your Sorceress cousin to that Infernal bloodline family get together.

Prefect Curse: Make it a -10 penalty. That should hurt.

Energy Immunity: Turn those resistances into Immunities.

(Insert Cool ability name here): Gain a +2 bonus to Charisma.

Perfect Eldritch Resistance: Tied to Arcane Pool. As an immediate action you can activate Spell Turning as a spell like ability. You must spend a number of points from your arcane pool equal to the level of the spell to be turned.

Like I said earlier, this is a rough draft. Looking for feed back. Tell me what you think so far.

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My House rules:

All characters start at level 3 with but have zero experience points.

Max out your first 3 hit dice.

All characters (Including humans) receive an extra feat at first level.

THE DRAW BACK: You only receive half your starting wealth for a 3rd level character. Also, as stated earlier, you are at zero experience meaning you must work your way up to 4th level experience before advancing again.

My reasons: I like to run games at lower levels. We tend to do more story based stuff and adventures. Maxing out the Hit dice and starting people at 3rd level gives them some versatility and longevity as opposed to starting at level 1. The problem we have at level one is that mortality rates seem to be high. I like the extra feat at first level as I feel it gives the players some additional options.

Now I cut treasure and wealth in half because I like to run with minimal amounts of magical items, and when magical items are awarded they are usually part of some adventure or tied to the characters back ground. I'd, personally, rather be stingy with treasure and provide more options to character creation.

That being said, I also give the monsters an extra feat, and they get close to if not maxed out hit dice, plus a few other nasty surprises if I feel like being creative.

It works for us, my players enjoy it, and we've had no issues.

The idea for a main bad guy who is a literal mother of monsters.

Either a witch or an Alchemist who a can breed monsters the "Normal" way but gets the best results and loyalties by dosing herself with with potions and mutagens and using herself as cauldron. She then uses the "children" to get what she wants.

Considering what's been going on in the internet of late. My question how likely is it someone or some of you would find the idea offensive?

I find your idea more macabre than offensive. I know I'm not helping you determine weather or not this is right for your games, and I'm not going to, as this is something you and your players need to decide for yourselves. That being said if you decide to go down this route consider using some of the following additional source material from 3.5.

Heroes of Horror: Corruption and Insanity are awesome additional rule sets in these styles of campaigns. Also they have expanded rules for the effects of fear and how to implement fear as a saving throw effect.
The Book of Vile Darkness: While this work as a whole is rather silly it had some good starting points for ideas. Take what you will.

I suggest these additional source materials if you really want to play up the horror behind your concept. Depending upon your campaign style this type of villain might cross the line from just another BBEG to something more disgusting and offensive, so much so, that to the PCs the very nature of what this villain is doing is an affront to their very sanity. It all depends on whether or not you want the concept to be so offensive, in character, that the very knowledge of what this villain is doing to create her monsters would be enough to severely traumatize a PC.

Also you could apply the taint and corruption rules to the main villain so that as she continues this warped practice of breading her monsters she herself is progressively embracing that corruption within herself leading to even stronger monsters being born from her womb due to the ever increasing levels of corruption within herself.

Personally I feel as though you as a GM should already have a good idea as to whether or not your concept will be offensive to your players. If you don't you may want to do some probing. Maybe refer to the horror genre and a similar idea to see how they react to it outside of the game. I personally would not ask flat out if they were okay with this idea as that tends to spoil the surprise should you decide to run with it. Half the fun with these kinds of concepts is the shock value. Still my best suggestion would be to feel this topic out with your players outside of game and once you have a good idea on what there feelings are about it that should tell you whether or not this is an idea for an adventure or an idea to go in the GM note book for future consideration at a later date.

@DarkLightHitomi

You will find that I tend to speak in general terms. My "group" is actually fairly eclectic and ranges greatly in terms of "gamer" experience from the recently indoctrinated N00B to someone who hasn't played since 2nd edition.

Me personally, I'm usually saddle bagged with being the GM. Mostly because I have the most experience and the best imagination when it comes to managing the campaign world. (I've been around since the early days of 2nd edition thru present).

When I do get to play I try to avoid "power games", "meat grinders", and "build competition" groups as I have a lot of issues with people that just play the game to "win" and build the most optimal beast possible using the RAW as I feel as though they are missing the entire point of "Role Playing".

And please don't take it as a trashing of your "style". Its a game, play it however you want. Just be educated enough to realize that not everyone wants to play your style, or my style, or any style but their own.

To reply to your post
A: Unfortunately a by product of the 3.0 to PF era of the D&D system has almost trained people to expect to have a certain amount of bonuses. Especially when 3.5 standardized NPC generation with point buy. True the system will always favor the character with bonuses, the problem is that people expect to have those bonuses now-a-days when playing with this system.

B: In my honest opinion this is the area where D&D/PF has the most issues. The system ranges in its approximation of "real world difficulty" based upon what the "average person" can do from being spot on accurate to completely borked. It really is kinda all over the place with some tasks that should be really difficult being amazingly easy to pull off while other tasks that should be really easy are next to impossible to pull off. But I blame this more on the games design than the people playing it.

C: This is true when you are playing casually. I don't believe the same holds true for any officially sanctioned events. This is to keep the playing field level but it also ties the GMs hands so that the adventure is written as is and played as is. If its too hard for your group in these sanctioned events then the official answer is, too bad. Still this would be the difference from casual play vs a sanctioned event.

Also please remember I come from an older time when the adventures were written to kill you and TPK the party in an afternoon. If anyone here remembers "THE TOMB OF HORRORS" then you'll be able to relate to what I'm saying here. Back then I fondly remember it was literally us (the party) vs the GM whose soul mission that afternoon was getting his perverse high off killing everyone.

D: I agree that not everyone should be able to do everything. Otherwise what would be the point. (You may as well play 4th edition at that point). What I mean is that you need to be able to do your job, your role, with some degree of competency, and part of that competency is reflected in the stats. I agree that there needs to be roles in the party. Its part of what makes this game fun. The fact that you can't do it all and the learning of teamwork to overcome in game problems.

@ Kane I apologize if my response seems hostile, I am mildly autistic and so it is extremely difficult to tell what is a bad or good way to say things to others because the golden rule (treat others as you would have them treat you) no longer applies. Things I say to others would not ever bother me in the reverse situation.

So I apologize if I seemed hostile and negative, please remember that and look more for the logic in my statements as logic seems to be the most consistent in language(though rarely is paid any attention).

Besides I don't see munchkin as a bad thing, just a different style of play, but perhaps that is not how others perceive it. I will start my quest for a different word for those who..."optimize"?.

No worries, and I apologize if I came off a bit harsh there. I prefer sarcasm over rage posting. It tends to lighten the mood while still conveying my point. I did not know about the autism and I am sorry if my response forced you to openly state this on a public forum.

As I stated earlier your method seems sound. I would highly recommend taking an hour and producing several pages of stats generated using your new found method. The statistics over the coarse of say 100 uses of this ability score generation system will start to give you an idea as to weather or not the method is sound in practice. It really is the only way to proof your concept as only through the repeated process of generating the ability scores many times over will any flaws in the method begin to show themselves.

FORE WARNING: Due to the rather hostile and negative connotation of feed back provided by the OP aka DarkLightHitomi in response to my own post, I am going reply in the best manner I know how... COMEDIC SARCASM!!! Enjoy :)

Yeah, no.

If your players will put up with this and enjoy it, more power to them and you.

I would personally rather play a flat 15-point buy than risk having my array hamstring my character concept and get an extra five points to try shoring up the random.

I don't come to the game wanting to find out what I'm playing: I already know what I want to play.

That randomized array up there? Note how the Intelligence score is the second-lowest score.

It doesn't matter WHAT class I had in mind, I'm a skill-junkie, and Int 10 simply will not do. Unless I'm playing a caster based on a different stat, Intelligence is always, always my highest score.

TL,DR: I may eat organic, but I'm not willing to build a character that way.

[Insert Sarcasm Here]

But wait, wait, we're forgetting the whole crux of the argument here. That if you can't love a character because of their inherent randomly generated flaws then your just an optimizer munchkin who can't role play!

And lets not forget about overcoming the challenges of being an Intelligence 11 wizard. That gives you something to try for. A problem to overcome while the DM is throwing stuff that is OUT TO KILL YOU your way. Like you don't have enough issues from the DM to deal with now you get to overcome your own in-character personal issues as well.

BUT FEAR NOT: Because hopefully someone in your party generated CAPTAIN UBER AWESOME AT EVERYTHING-EVERYTHING-EVERYTHING because he rolled up three 18s. We'll all just hide behind him and let him pick up the slack while we pick our nose due to our Charisma sitting at a lovely 6.
[END Sarcasm here]

And don't throw around the word munchkin like it means something, because all you're trying to do is incite negative feedback by calling anyone that uses the point buy system a munchkin.

[RESTART SARCASM]: Yep, that mean's I'm a munchkin. Oh, by the Gygaxian Gods how did I ever allow myself to sub come to the darkside of wanting to build the character I envision in my mind rather than the one determined for me by the dice.

WHAT A BAD PLAYER I AM. I SHOULD KNOW BETTER THAN TO WANT TO HAVE FREE WILL. EVIL MUNCHINKER. I MUST BE WHIPPED AND BEATEN OFF THE FORUMS

And how could I be so stupid as to suggest an alternate method of character creation that doesn't even use point buy let alone random generation. How dare I think up a way of generating characters that relies entirely upon ones own imagination and ability to preconceive a character ahead of time. FORE SHAME, WHAT A BAD PLAYER I MUST BE. Evil imagination. Evil wants. I should know better than to desire such things and leave all my choices up to the toss of the dice. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY. THAT IS THE PURE TRUE D&D WAY.
[Once again End Sarcasm Here]

Yes, random stat generation can be interesting. But don't walk around here calling those of us that use point buy systems munchkins who are incapable of loving an organic character. Using point buy is a preference just like using random stat generation. And using point buy doesn't mean we can't love "organic characters". It just means when we come to play we'd rather play want we want, and not what the dice determine we have to play.

@DarkLightHitomi
In closing, your method for random generation is sound. Good Job. Have fun using it.

As for your "forum Etiquette", your tolerance for the "point of view" of others and discussing "points of view" that differ from your own, it needs work. Try reading your own responses to others and just try putting yourself in their shoes. If you even get the remote inkling that you might come off as rude or offensive, then you should really reconsider the wording of your response.

-AK

You are assuming a class needs high stats to play, they don't.

The only actual restriction for class viability is that a spellcaster has to have (spell level plus 10) in the casting stat to cast a spell. There are no other absolute needs to play a class, bonuses are nice but they are just bonuses.

Example; So for a spellcaster the player makes an array with a 9 and the 9 lands on his spellcasting stat he uses 4 of his 5 points to up it to 13 then has at least 7 levels before the stat disallows him to cast something, and has plenty of levels to up his stat and adventures get magic to improve that stat further.

Bonuses are not needed to play a class, they help but are not needed. Anyone who hates to play without those bonuses is a munchkin, which is fine and those munchkins can go play with point buy.

The nice thing about this method is a player can use it if they want even when the GM just says regular point buy.

You are correct that with the exception of casters you don't need bonuses to play the classes and yes you could get buy with playing a character with all 11s.

There is one problem. The D&D/Pathfinder system inherently favors the PC that has bonuses and to a certain degree the encounters are designed assuming that you have a certain average of bonuses at any given level. When you don't have those bonuses the game becomes that much harder and while you maybe having fun playing this character, your companions may not be having fun picking up your slack.

Its one thing to have fun playing. Its another thing to have fun playing at the expense of other people. Its a very narrow wire to walk even with a group that's okay with your sub-par character.

And please don't call people who prefer to play with bonuses munchkins. Fact is a lot of people take pride in their character and that pride is somewhat reflected in their characters stats. The fat kid playing a nimble elf with a dexterity of 19 isn't just doing it for the +4 bonus. He's doing it because its something he'll never be able to do in real-life. Part of the escape, part of the fantasy and the illusion of this game translates into the ability scores. For some people playing average would be just as bad as playing themselves.

All I'm trying to say is that while random can be fun its not for everybody. Point buy has its draw backs too. Long story short, there is no perfect method for generating characters. You go random and you lose the ability to design to concept. You go static point buy and you get into min/maxing.

After much research and debating it is my honest opinion that random ability score generation is nothing short of an early Gygaxian torture method taught to 1st generation DMs to make sure that players understood this one message: "Welcome to D&D. Don't get attached to your characters because their ability scores will probably suck and the traps and monsters in this dungeon have been designed to kill you all anyway."

That much being said. Welcome to point buy when I show up to play a game for 4 to 8 hours I want it to be an enjoyable exercise playing something that I want to play, not an 8 hour crap fest of me dealing with a character that I don't give two copper pieces about because I was railroaded into playing him because the dice decided to have a bad day.

But that's just me. I don't have time to waste on playing something I have no interest in.

When I was younger and didn't work 40+ hours in a week, then yeah, I could spare a day to play in a one shotter with some randomly generated character who I got saddled with.

Fact is a lot of people to prefer to play the character that they see in their minds, not the ones determined by the dice.

And if you think point buy is too limiting and rolling is too random here's an idea for ability score generation that will really blow your mind. Ability Scores Based on Character Concept and Back Ground. Here's how it works.
-You need a group of experienced players who are more focused on playing the characters in their minds and not min/maxing every last little detail for ultimate optimization. That means in they see their character as genius level smart with an Intelligence of 18 then that's what they describe but they are also honest enough to admit that this character wasn't very healthy as a child and thus has a below average constitution of 8. They are willing to take the good along with the bad because the concept it more important.
-You need a GM/DM who knows the people he's playing with and whose good a figuring out their character concept descriptions because ultimately he's the one whose going to decide based upon the character concept outline what ability scores the character is going to get.
-Is it a fair and balanced system. Well the answer is yes and no. Its fair and balanced as long as everyone agrees to be adults and play their character concept. It breaks down the moment you get someone that writes on their character sheet MY CHARACTER IS SUPER-OMEGA-UBER-AT-EVERYTHING-EVERYTHING-EVERYTHING. ALL 18S PLZ/LOLZ. But that person should either be escorted out of the room or not allowed to be involved with this group to begin with.
-Its a very mature and adult method of character creation that caters more to a group of people more interested in playing the characters in their minds and allowing the stats to reflect those characters rather than treating all at the table like children and forcing the characters to be created within preset rules and parameters.

I will agree that there are some class concepts that have not yet been addressed by the existing character classes in play and for which and archetype/alternate class design may not be a solution. Still these classes will tend to be the exception rather than the norm.

For the "Martial Artist/spell caster" I would recommend going back to 3.5 Material like Complete Arcane for the "Enlightened Fist". This is one of those instances where I feel PrCs can actually shine. You have two base concepts and a Fusion PrC class is what I would recommend over designing an entirely new base class.

Fact is that the 3.5 material is largely still compatible as is with a few minor tweaks. Granted once again you have to seriously look at the PrCs before allowing them into your game as some are grossly unbalanced while other are so underpowered that they are near unplayable. Shoring up these design flaws is a good way to practice your own class building skills as its much easier to build and balance a PrC than a full base class.

Its often been argued that the Artificer could just be a "Re-Skinned" Alchemist. With a death ray instead of bombs, and who cast spells through gadgets rather than potions. Almost the same base mechanics, just with a different look to describe them. Check out "The Engineer" that we wrote up on the forum for some ideas.

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After seeing the race builder from the play test for Advanced Race, I think it would be cool have a class builder system to create new strange classes or archetypes

somebody else want something like this?

This was attempted once in a system call bESM D20. They attempted to assign a point value to all the current 3.0 classes at the time and provided a point buy value. They even illustrated how classes like the fighter in 3.0 were grossly underpowered when compared to full spell casters.

That being said, there are inherent flaws with this approach to class building. The biggest problem is that while you can assign values to class features, its really hard to determine how these features will interact over the coarse of 20 levels. Another major problem you run into is min/maxing on an even more grotesque scale than before, especially if you allow players to custom build their class from level to level.

Pathfinder has already given us some (albeit shaky) guidelines for designing base classes.
-We know that BAB and Hit Dice are tied together. (This is one of those guidelines I really, really, really don't agree with).
-We know that One or Two good saves are standard. Three good saves should be considered a class feature.
-We know based on past precedence that if you have a full BAB you should really only have up to 4th level spells. 3/4 BAB you should have up to 6th level spells if you have class features at every level OR up to 9th level spells if you do not receive a class feature at every level. 1/2 BAB is almost a guarantee that you will get up to 9th level spell casting.

If you have browsed the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana (UA) book (which is OGL) then you can make certain other assumptions about abilities.
-If you look in Unearthed Arcana you will find a section detailing three "Base" classes. These are even more stripped down versions of classes than their 3.5 counterparts. These classes can best be described as a "Fighter", an "Expert" and a "Spell Caster". Each receives some bonus feats. If you look at some of the bonus feats that they can take you will find things like Sneak Attack, Turn Undead, ect. The reason I point this out is that it can provide you with a base line for what class features you could considered on the same power scale as a Feat.

To be honest while a set of class building guidelines would be nice, I don't think its either necessary or as useful as you may think. It can cause all sorts of problems with the game. Namely it means Paizo will have to retroactively show the "math" behind all their class designs. While this may sound great in theory, forcing them to proof their designs, think of how it will limit us. No you'll have people saying "This isn't fair, I can't do this because I don't have enough points, and that's dumb, it shouldn't cost that much or that little, blah, blah, blah". Another angle of this argument will be "NO YOU STUPID NOOB, you can't do that because the RAW don't let you do that so you can't build your class that way. And the fact is once you set class building rules in print, they may as well be written in stone. Its a good idea in theory but a bad idea in practice. At least right now we still have the freedom to design a class the way we see fit, free from a set of full on rules telling us how it must be done.

Class building is largely something you have to learn to do on your own through trial and error. It does take a certain amount of system understanding and mastery to do correctly. Its also why no matter how good your class designs look on paper, you have to remember these key words: PLAY TEST, PLAY TEST, PLAY TEST. Because you won't see your own designs flaws while you're in the honeymoon phase of building that class.

I would say before you ask for official class building rules try this instead. Use the forums. Use the Advice Forum for bouncing small questions and small ideas off people to see what the reaction is. Use the rules Forum if you have any questions about how something is suppose to work. And then use the "Home Brew" forum to acid test your new class ideas.

What's the worst that happens. We tell you your class idea is borked and you need to take it back to the drawing board. Yeah that criticism is harsh, but at least you have feed back, and that's something you can't get off a class building chart.

These are the rules I follow for class building.
-Inspiration, Precedence, Construction, Critique, Play Test, Refinement.

Hope it helps.
-AK

Check this out:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/archetypes/paizo- --samurai-archetypes/sword-saint

Its an official Paizo archetype for the samurai class. See how you like it.

I see a few problems:

1. d6 HD/Full BAB. Should be either d10/Full BAB or d6/poor BAB, per PF standards

I'd like to point out that this is a false assumption. While it is true the Core & Base Classes follow the matching of the BAB to the Hit Die rule, Prestige Classes do not have to do this and there are exceptions printed by Paizo.

If you look in the Advanced Players guide you will find the Prestige class called THE RAGE PROPHET. This class has a D10 Hit die and a Medium BAB. I mention this to you because it is quite similar to the Rage Mage and it may provide you with a more structured guideline.

Personally I would recommend keeping the Full BAB and giving it a D8 hit die as WotC had a tendency to Nerf most of their PrCs rather than over power them. Actually it seems fairly consistent in the "Complete" splat books that there are one or two OMG-AMAZING PrCs and the rest ranged from passable to unplayable.

Complete Warrior had a lot of good PrC ideas, but the broken one was the Frenzied Berserker not the Rage Mage.
Complete Divine gave us Captain Insta-Heal (aka the Radiant Servant of Pelor), the Divine Wizard PrC (The Rainbow Servant) and the ever build popular Ur-Priest.

The reason why PrCs are not tied to the same class creations rules is so that YOU the GM can customer design the PrC to fit into your campaign world. You want a PrC for a gish with a Full BAB and a D6 Hit die. Yeah you can make that. Because that PrC is suppose to be a reflection of your world.

Hope this helps to guide you.

Personally I would compare the Rage Mage to the Rage Prophet and try to come to a happy medium.

Enjoy. AK

I think D&D got a little too exotic weapon happy back in the 3.0 days and that carried its way over to Pathfinder.

Personally I believe that simple weapons are weapons that one can pick up and use with little to no training and still be effective with them. A staff, a club, a knife. These are easy to use weapons.

Martial weapons should be weapons that you need training to use correctly. While anyone is dangerous with a sword, most swords require some time of style training to use correctly so that you are in control of the weapon and the weapon is not in control of you. Example, a commoner picks up a great sword. Yes he's dangerous, and yes it will hurt if he hits you with it, but he can't control his swing, and the weight of the sword is constantly pulling him out of position and leaving him open to attacks. A trained warrior with that same great sword knows how to swing it, so that with each swing the weight of that sword helps get him into position for his next attack.

Exotic weapons (and this is where I feel things got dumb) should be hard to use weapons that require extensive training. Personally I feel as though the bastard sword is a good example of an exotic weapon that should not be an exotic weapon. Its a sword that can be used with one or two hands and that is designed to take advantage of of either option. But aside from this it does nothing special.

Now good examples of exotic weapons are stuff like the Kasuri-gama (or sickle attached to a weighted chain), a whip, the double ended weapons. Stuff that gives you bonuses to trip and disarm attempts.

In general an exotic weapon should require very specific weapon training for it to be used effectively. (In other words the style you have to learn to use this weapon should only apply to this weapon and/or maybe 1 or 2 others like it, if that). It should provide you with a bonus to a specific type of combat maneuver. Weapons that are so specialized in the way that they are used that you cannot just pick up the weapon and use it because odds are you'll hurt or kill yourself with it due to your own incompetence.

I think D&D got stupid with the whole Exotic weapon thing out of some failed attempt to deter an ever growing scale of power creep. They saw the Elven thin blade as being WAY TOO POWERFUL and thus made it an exotic weapon. It wasn't classified as an exotic weapon because of how it was used or training involved for using it. It was classified as an exotic weapon to deter optimizers from ditching a rapier in favor of the better weapon. Once they started doing that they compromised the entire system of simple, martial, and exotic weapon proficiencies.

And I understand that players will usually go for the best weapons regardless of their character concept. Why use a Rapier if the Elven Thin blade is better. Then again look at this from a historical perspective. Newer weapons that did the job better often rendered their predecessors obsolete which is why no one uses them anymore. It doesn't mean that the weapon is exotic, it means the weapon is more effective.

This is also where I tend to go into my rant about playing the character concept and not the min/max optimization game. If you're character concept is that of a human swords man from a mostly anglo-european culture then you should be using a longsword and not a scimitar. A human fencer that's never encountered an elf should have a rapier and not an elven thin blade because he's never encountered the culture. But I'm digressing into a completely different subject.

As for your Asian themed location this may be a good place to make some regional changes. Thus if your "Asian" the following "Exotic weapons" become martial weapons for you. If you're "Standard western European D&D Human" then the following weapons are "Exotic" to you.

At least that would be the easiest way of handling it.

Anthony Kane wrote:

... I've seen it happen enough times. Players want to be a wizard because the watch someone with experience play the all powerful god and master of the universe at the table. Then they try to do it and wined up as the most useless member of the party because they don't have the right experience to know what spells they'll need for that day...

It isn't always a matter of experience or knowledge of the game. With some GM's, groups, or campaigns it is almost impossible to know what spells will be useful for the day. Then the wizard is always memorizing the same 'default' selection of generally useful spells. he ends up being a poor sorc.

Like I said, that was from experiences I've had over the years. Still even with a generic "default" spell memorization list (which I do strongly recommend that any wizard player come up with) its all a matter of what spells you put onto that default list, and that comes with time and experience.

A lot if the experience will come from getting a general feeling for GMs style of playing, how your group works, or how the campaign works in general. Once you get that felt out the default list of spells should at least be effective. It may not make you amazing, and sure you'll have days when its not quite as effective as it was the day before. A good default spell list will make a wizard useful in most situations, but like any PC, there are going to be times when you just aren't able to contribute anything, and that's just part of the game known as teamwork.

And if you can't figure out the feel of a GM, a group or a campaign then maybe a wizard isn't a good idea. Maybe its best to stick with a sorcerer at that point. But that has nothing to do with the usefulness of arcane magic. Arcane magic has proven is versatility time and time again. At that point its about what class can most often effectively use that arcane tool box, and that's a completely different discussion for another thread.

But your race of octopus men who eat brains and channel psychic energy into a stunning mental blast is right out...

I think you have it backwards. Divine Spell casters are NOT as amazingly better than arcane casters as you may think. There are several reasons for this. Here's my explanation.

First you have to go WAY back before 3.5 to almost the games origins. Like back to Advanced D&D (1st or 2nd edition). You know, back in the days of level caps for non-humans, when people rolled 3D6 straight for ability scores, when each class had its own separate level progression XP table, and when having an Armor class of Zero was amazing because you didn't have BAB you had THAC-0.

Back in this fantasy time warp the spell casting tables were different for both Divine and arcane magic. Divine Magic worked on a spell casting table of level 1 thru 7, where Arcane Magic worked on a scale of level 1 thru 9. 7th level divine spells were similar in power to 9th level arcane spells. Confused yet?

The D&D 3.0 came along and they revised the power scale. At the time game designers felt it made more sense for the two primary casters in the game (clerics and wizards) to have the same spell level scale (1st thru 9th).

Now you also have to remember that back then WoTC actually gave a damn about its old school player base, so much so that they actually gave out a nifty conversion manual so that you could "update" your AD&D 2nd edition character to 3.0. This also meant that a lot of the "classic spells" where also re-stated to 3.0 mechanics. The reason why this is important is that if you felt things with magic were broken back in 2nd edition, all 3.0 did was provide a bridge for much of that to carry over (without much play testing) into 3.0.

So in short, the first problem you have is 2 different magic power level scales for 2 different classes getting translated thru conversion into a "standardized" format for the 3rd edition of the game.

Second. The cleric's magic was always designed to be much less versatile than the wizards. This was done primarily because the cleric had other options that the wizard didn't. The cleric from AD&D and the 3rd edition era had Heavy Armor Proficiency, they had a better THAC-0 or BAB, they got a bigger Hit Die, ect. Thus the only way to keep the Cleric in check in terms of game balance was to really limit the scope of what his spells could do.

I also believe that back in 2nd edition Clerics had to pray for there spells and while this term remains part of the PF vernacular to this day its meaning has changed over time. Today, that phrase is just another way of saying that a cleric is a "prepared" spell caster. It still mean this back in earlier editions but I believe (and I might be wrong about this) the DM/GM had the option of assigning the cleric what spells he got for the day. You could make a request by praying for specific spells but your deity (aka the DM/GM) had the option of overriding you request and assigning you spells that they felt you needed for that day. This little caveat was lost in the translation from 2nd edition to 3rd edition, and thus the cleric got to be a lot more flexible than he use to be.

The wizard didn't have that problem. No praying to a higher power for what he wanted to cast. He just studied what he wanted and got what he wanted for his spells.

Third I think it also has a lot to do with the player and how they interact with the group. Playing a spell caster is hard to do right but I think the cleric player has it easier than the wizard player. The cleric has a lot of options. He can fight competently in melee. He can damage undead. He can spontaneously heal. He also has a wide array of domain powers. These options make it seem as if the Cleric is better than the wizard but that is false. It just means the cleric looks easier to play because he has more options. So what if he didn't memorize enough healing magic. Channel energy and the ability to spontaneously heal make up for that. If he didn't prepare the right spells, who cares, he can still fight on the front line for a little bit.

The wizard doesn't have this luxury. (and notice how I didn't say arcane casters in general because the Sorcerer has it easy compared to the wizard). If you didn't memorize the right spells you my friend are USELESS. If you prepared a bunch of damage spells that day and your group is dealing with social encounters guess who isn't contributing. If you prepared a bunch of divination spells for recon and today is the day the DM/GM has planned for an 8 hour battle royale, guess who's not doing squat.

I've seen it happen enough times. Players want to be a wizard because the watch someone with experience play the all powerful god and master of the universe at the table. Then they try to do it and wined up as the most useless member of the party because they don't have the right experience to know what spells they'll need for that day.

The wizard has the most extensive set of spells with options in the game, period. Its like having an entire tool department at you disposal. But unless you know what you'll need, when you need it, and how much you'll need, all those tools could be useless.

With the wizard its all about preparation. And a player that can't prepare the right spells for that day or set of encounters can make the wizard and his entire spell list look bad. I'm not saying you're doing this. I'm just siting examples of what I've seen over the years.

Finally we have the Sorcerer. Remember how I removed him from the above conversation, well here's the reason for that. The Sorcerer player as an arcane caster has it much easier because even though they have a very limited spell selection, as long as you know the right spells, you always have options.

Remember while the wizard can know every spell in the game he still has to prepare the right spells for that day.

The sorcerer only knows a few of the spells out of all of them, but he can cast any of the spells he knows, at any time, as long as he hasn't used up all his spell casting slots for that day. A spontaneous caster has that one advantage over a prepared caster. They can adapt to the situation, as long as they know the right spell. The prepared caster may know the right spell, but if they didn't prepare it, and they don't have a way to swap it out on the spot, then its as good as not being there when they need it.

I know this was a long explanation. I hope it helps clear up your question.

Is there a PDF or DOC file of this?

Unfortunately no there is not. If someone wants to PDF/DOC it online feel free.

Ok, missed that part. I like it. I might playtest this next weekend and get back to you.

Let me know how it goes. Play testing usually always reveals design flaws.

Doesn't actually matter if it is covered by the ogl. It is a HOMEBREW build.

As to the actual build...on the weapon training, will the increased crit range stack with imp. Crit or keen? I would almost rather keep the increased to hit and damage from weapon training and ALSO give them an increased crit range, but only with finesseable weapons.

At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with any light weapon and any weapon that can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels gained after 5th. This functions like weapon training except that it only applies to light weapons or weapons that can be used with the weapon finesse feat.

At 5th level the swashbuckler selects one light weapon or weapon that can be used with the weapon finesse feat. The critical threat range with that one weapon increases by 1. This increase stacks with the feat Improved Critical or the Weapon Property "Keen" but it does not allow the Improved Critical feat or the Weapon Property "Keen" to stack. At 9th level, 13th level, and 17th level the Swashbuckler selects another light weapon or weapon that can be used with the weapon finesse feat and increases its critical threat range by 1.

This ability replaces Weapon Training.

You get both. You get the increase both to hit and damage that starts at +1 and increases by +1 every four levels thereafter. You also get to select 1 light or finesse-able weapon at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17th that you can increase the critical threat range by 1. This will stack with the improved critical feat or the Keen weapon property.

It still does not allow you to stack both Improved Critical feat and Keen weapon property.

So you could select your rapier and increase the threat range from 18-20/x2 to 17-20/x2. If you took the improved critical feat your threat range would be 14-20/x2. (first you would double the threat range from 18-20 to 15-20/then you would apply the bonus from the class ability increasing it to 14-20/x2).

Fighter Archetype: Swashbuckler
Here's something I've been thinking up. I'm looking for some feed back on it. While I'm well aware that there is a "Swashbuckler" archetype for the rogue, I still haven't seen one done for the fighter. This class is not meant to be a replacement or conversion for the 3.5 Complete Warrior Swashbuckler.

In quotations you will find my reasoning for the changes.

Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Knowledge (Nobility), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Swim (Str).

I updated the skill list to better reflect the skills that a swashbuckler would need

Weapon & Armor Proficiencies: Remove Medium & Heavy Armor Proficiencies. Remove Shield (including Tower Shield) Proficiencies.

I changed the armor proficiencies because I included an additional ability at 1st level that helps the Swashbuckler out with there armor class. Keep reading.

Weapon Finesse (Ex): A Swashbuckler gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level. This replaces the Fighters standard bonus feat at 1st level.

The Swashbuckler, being a fighter archetype, is suppose to be a dexterity based fighter. Therefore it only made sense that they get Weapon Finesse right off the bat

Insightful Fighter (Ex): At 1st level, when wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a Swashbuckler adds his Intelligence Modifier (if any) to his dexterity bonus to modify his Armor class while wielding any light weapon or any other weapon that can be used with the weapon finesse feat. If a swashbuckler is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his dexterity bonus, then he also losses this bonus.

Also when a swashbuckler is wielding any light weapon or any other weapon that can be used with the weapon finesse feat, he may apply his intelligence modifier (in addition to his strength modifier) as a bonus on weapon damage rolls. Any creature that is immune to critical hits are immune to the swashbuckler's additional damage from the Canny Fighter class ability. (They still retain their Strength bonus to weapon damage rolls).

The swashbuckler cannot use either part of the Canny Fighter ability when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

This is part of the reason why the Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiencies were dropped. At first one might say that this now causes the archetype to fall into the MAD category. You first have to remember that Strength will no longer be as big of a concern for the dexterity based fighter. Second, a lot of what makes the Swashbuckler different from a fighter comes from not just a high dexterity but a smarter way of fighting, which assumes they will have a high intelligence score. This is also reflected in the Combat Expertise feat with its Int 13 prerequisite. Well now you have another reason to give yourself a decent intelligence score. Not only will you need it for your Combat Expertise Feat, and all feats that use it a a prerequisite but it also helps you out with your Armor Class and with your weapon damage rolls.

Grace (Ex): Starting a 2nd level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on Reflex Saves and on Acrobatics skill checks. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces Bravery.

I would be lying if I said that this archetype didn't draw some of its inspiration for its 3.5 predecessor. This gives the Swashbuckler a little extra push to make those reflex saves and helps out with acrobatic skill checks.

Elusive (Ex): At 3rd level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 3rd. The swashbuckler loses this bonus if wearing medium or heavy armor, uses a shield, or carries a medium or heavy load. This replaces Armor Training 1,2,3, and 4.

One of the problems that a Swashbuckler class faces in this game is the fact that the system was never really designed for a "lightly armored" fighter. D&D always made the assumption that the fighter will "Tank-up". My hope is that this extra dodge bonus to AC will help to close the gap between sir-tank-alot and the lightly armored fighter.

Expertise (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with any light weapon and any weapon that can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels gained after 5th. This functions like weapon training except that it only applies to light weapons or weapons that can be used with the weapon finesse feat.

At 5th level the swashbuckler selects one light weapon or weapon that can be used with the weapon finesse feat. The critical threat range with that one weapon increases by 1. This increase stacks with the feat Improved Critical or the Weapon Property "Keen" but it does not allow the Improved Critical feat or the Weapon Property "Keen" to stack. At 9th level, 13th level, and 17th level the Swashbuckler selects another light weapon or weapon that can be used with the weapon finesse feat and increases its critical threat range by 1.

This ability replaces Weapon Training.

I wanted to keep weapon training but I understood that the group of weapons that a swashbuckler will be able to use in conjunction with his class abilities would be extremely limiting, and fall into one or two groups. That being said, I added on an ability lets them be just a little bit more deadly with these light weapons. I also feel as though it reflects the fact that while the swashbuckler's light weapons may not have the same nasty crunch as the 2D6 great sword, they can still be just as deadly and dish out good damage if they can use those light weapons to consistently hit precisely for critical damage. In simpler terms, you can hit someone anywhere with a hatchet and just cause a bad wound, but a knife can cause a small wound that's just as bad if you know what critical areas to strike with it.

Elusive Target (Ex) At 19th level, a Swashbuckler has become so adept at fighting in light or no armor that can avoid attacks with almost uncanny ease. Whenever an attack roll would hit a swashbuckler there is a 50% chance that the attack with miss completely. This replaces Armor Mastery.

It only made sense to replace the armor mastery ability with something more fitting. 50% miss chance. Yeah its powerful. Guess what, its also gained at level 19!!! It reflects a lifetime of training on how "not to get hit", not how to get hit for the least amount of damage.

Once again this is not meant to be a conversion of the 3.5 Swashbuckler but rather an adaptation of that class into a PF Fighter Archetype. Please tell me what you think. Feed back will be most appreciated.

AK

Why not just make up a CRB errata PDF that can be released for free down load on the webpage. With the most recent printing of the books make that same PDF into a booklet insert that can be distributed with CRBs already in stock. That would buy Paizo enough time to rework their CRB layout.

DR/Magic isn't going to age very well.

Its a starting point. I'm thinking about having some way of changing it via a discovery/talent.

Proto-type for a class: A New Take on the Warlock/New Ideas

I've been thinking up a re-design for the 3.5 Warlock. Trying to figure out new ideas for this class in the re-design.

One of the most common problems that I see with the Warlock, and I will admit that I suffer from this myself, is its 3.5 fluff baggage where it pertains to how the Warlock got their abilities from Dark, Forgotten, Fey, or whatever problems. I've come to the conclusion that this is one of the major cruxes of the issue with warlock conversions to pathfinder.

The simple fact is that the 3.5 Warlock was designed to do what the 3.5 Sorcerer abysmally failed to do. The 3.5 Sorcerer was suppose to have the blood of arcane heritages coursing through his veins (sound familiar) but was nerfed so badly because of the over estimation of the power of spontaneous casting.

Rather than fix the issue WotC decided to just about abandon the Sorcerer and designed his replacement.

Well now we have a new problem. You see the Warlock is not OGL, so guess what, Paizo can't get him. To compound the issue, they actually FIXED the Sorcerer by giving him back what he should have had in the first place, his bloodlines. Thus if you try to directly convert the warlock, flavor and all, he really starts to step on the sorcerer's toes.

THE NEW IDEA: So I decided to try and go a new route with the Warlock in terms of flavor. Rather than have him bound to a fiendish, feyish, or whatever heritage, I said to myself why not ditch all that and instead think of the Warlock as a maverick spell caster. The rogue of the arcane world with no formal training. Unlike the Sorcerer his power doesn't necessary stem from a heritage. Unlike a Wizard he had no one to teach him how to properly wield his power. Instead I'm envisioning the warlock as someone that has learned how to tap into the very primal energies of arcane magic, and through sheer force of will learned to channel that energy in a very basic but very effective fashion. Thus they never really learned spells, their abilities (aside from blasting things with raw power) are spell like abilities that they have learned to sculpt out of the magical energy they wield. This power gradually begins to infuse their very being, granting them more special abilities like damage reduction, energy resistance, ect.

The Decision to Incorporate Channeling: Like I said earlier, the idea to make the warlock into someone who just channels raw magical energy opened up a new idea. The ability to channel raw magical energy. For this I'm drawing inspiration from the Psionic class: The Wilder. Specifically the Wild Surge ability.

Restructuring of Eldritch Blast For the blast abilities it just made sense to go with a progression of gaining 1D6 at every odd level rather then to switch it up from levels 11 thru 20.

Eldritch Powers: In an attempt to try and bring the class in line with Pathfinder standards I'm considering doing something very similar to the Alchemist discoveries or Rogue Talents. The reason behind this is simple. These abilities will allow for the further customization of the class beyond the simple selection of invocation powers.

Stripping out the old flavor: One of the things I really wanted to do was remove all the dark over tones over the class. Thus invocations would be renamed to be more generic, abilities like Fiendish Resilience would be converted into simply "Fast healing/X". Also heritage specific abilities would be neutralized. DR would be changed from DR/cold iron to DR/Magic.

So these are some of the basic ideas I've had for this redesign. I'm looking for thoughts and input. If you have ideas and you want to share them feel free. I'm looking to brain storm.

Tell me what you all think.

please, please fore the love of all the Archlocks around, change the name.

It is very very close in german to an insulting word, 2 letters distinct but sounds almost the same.
** spoiler omitted **

But everyone loves the German word for "Kittens" right!?

-No in all seriousness this is one of those cases of where the word that you have selected while sounding awesome in English will translate (or come close to) into a very rude profanity.

Its better we point this out now before someone who doesn't know any better makes a character based on your class and introduces himself as Timmy the Archlock (but pronounces it Arschloch either by accident or ignorance).

I believe for "Fiends" there was a Fiend Blooded PRC in "Heroes of Horror"

You know... There are some threads that you have to read just because you know from reading the thread title that it is going to be amazing.

This was one of those times.

Since I recently saw the avengers the only thing I'm picturing now is that scene between Hulk and Loki and that being analogous to the subject matter.

In closing I'll leave you all with this comment:

Barbarian to really dead Goblin-Club weapon thing after its too dead to keep using: "Puny Goblin..." And then he reaches for another.

The mods generally look down on bumps <_<

My issue with Combat Medic is that it's essentially a free full turn. movement (with no AoOs) and a then a standard action at the end. Maybe just a bonus to AC for AoOs will do fine. But inserting a full turn out of your turn isn't a good idea.

I'm not 100% sold on surgical strikes. It works fairly well, don't get me wrong. But there's something off about it to me.

Overall, I think it's a bit on the weakside, although I suspect that's due to the subject matter, healing, more than anything else.

Combat Medic: The Physician has been trained for combat related situations and knows how to move about the battlefield to reach her patients without placing herself in harms way. By selecting this discovery the physician can as an immediate action move up to her base speed without provoking attacks of opportunity. The physician's movement must end next to a character that is either at zero hit points or dying. Once she has reached her target she can then administer any item, ability, spell, medicinal extract or skill that would either stabilize the dying character or restore hit point damage. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to the physician's wisdom modifier.

Well here's a question. I understand what you're saying about it being powerful. The question is, does the restriction of only being able to use the ability to reach someone that is at zero hp or dying limit the ability's usefulness to the point that its not as over powering as one might think?

The condition to use the ability is that someone has to be at zero hp or dying. While you can make a full move without provoking AoOs at the end of that move you can only use abilities that would restore hit point damage. So even the action you can take is limited.

To top it off you can only use it a number of times per day equal to your wisdom modifier.

My concern is that its so conditional and specific that if I limit it any further it will become unusable. Thoughts?

(kick)

(kicking this thread back to the top of the list) giving folks enough time to view it before it disappears into the forum.

Kick for anyone else that wants to have a look or comment

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Author's notes
Alchemist Alternate class: The Physician (formerly The Doctor) Version 3.0
I changed the Alternate class's name because of the obvious Doctor Who reference so as not to confuse people as this is not a Dr. Who in pathfinder build.

First some thank yous are in order:

Special Thanks to Cheapy and Vero for the feedback. It has certainly help with the development of this class.

Thanks to anyone that showed interest or left encouraging comments. Its nice to know that this idea was at least interesting to someone other than myself.

So here is The Physician version 3.0
A few notable changes from last time:

The replacement of Sneak Attack with Surgical Strike. I had gotten a lot of positive feed back with regards to the feel of sneak attack for this class. I wanted to keep that feel but still create something unique to the Physician and that wasn't just stealing the Rogue's sneak attack ability (although I will admit that surgical strike is kind of a steal)

Discoveries have been expanded.

Minor tweaks and changes to Medicinal Alchemy incorporating the feed back that I had gotten.

Increase of Skill Points per level after it was pointed out that the alchemist had an artificially low skill point per level increase due to Intelligence being its primary ability score stat. That being said with the switch of Medicinal Alchemy changing the primary ability score to wisdom, increasing the base skill points gained per level seemed appropriate.

The Acknowledgments: As stated earlier the Physician came about due to my attempt to fuse several different archetypes together into one whole. Parts of this class are of my own design but other parts were clearly taken from other Paizo/third party sources.
Ultimate Magic: The Chirurgeon
Ultimate Magic: The Vivisectionist
Paizo Fans United: The Herbalist
And Finally a big thanks to Paizo Publishing in general for creating the Alchemist. I really like all of their work but I feel as though with the Alchemist they really hit a home run. It was a class everyone wanted to see done, but no one had built. The fact that it can be re-skinned in so many different ways shows that at its core its a base class, much like the fighter, rogue, or cleric.

As stated last time the primary goal here was to create an alternate class to the Alchemist. One that focused more on Healing, Support, Buffing, and Debuffing. I feel as though the Physician is clearly an awesome healer and support character. Her buffing skills are comparable to that of the Alchemist if not being slightly better. Where as the Alchemist is the better mass debuffer the physician can excel at one on one debuffs through the use of her surgical strike ability.

At this point I feel as though I'm almost done with this class. Still feel free to review it. If you see any glaring issues, please comment and point them out. If you have any criticisms please try to offer them in a constructive manner. I'm interested in the communities feedback with regards to this project.

Once again thanks for your time and continued support: Anthony.

Alignment: Any
Base Attack Bonus: (unchanged) Medium.
Hit die: D8
Saving throws: Fortitude (good), Reflex (good), Will Power (Poor)
Skills: 6+Int Modifier per level Same Skill set as standard Alchemist.
The physician’s class skills are Appraise (Int), Craft (any)
(Int), Disable Device (Dex), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge
(arcana) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis),
Profession (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int),
Survival (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha).

Medicinal Medicinal Extract Level: 6th Same as Alchemist
Medicinal Extracts per day: Same as Alchemist
Physician/Alchemist Formula: Same as Alchemist

The following are class features of the Physician.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Physicians are proficient with all simple weapons. They are also proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Brew Potion (Ex): The Physician receives Brew Potion as a bonus feat at first level just like an Alchemist at first level. A physician can brew potions of any formula she knows (up to 3rd level), using her physician level as her caster level. The spell must be one that can made into a potion. The physician does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.

Infusion replaces Throw Anything (Ex)
As the physician does not throw bombs like the standard alchemist the Throw Anything bonus feat has been replaced by the infusion discovery at 1st level. This allows the physician to administer her medicinal extracts to the rest of the party.

Medicinal Alchemy (Su) Replaces Alchemy
Physician's are skilled doctors who have not only studied the body's anatomy but also how different natural herbs and ingredients can be distilled and concentrated into powerful magical potion-like medicinal extracts in which they can store spell effects. In effect the physician prepares her spells by mixing ingredients into a number of medicinal extracts, and then either “casts” her spells on herself by drinking the medicinal extract, or “casts” her spell on someone else by having them drink the medicinal extract. When the physician creates a medicinal extract, she infuses the medicine with a tiny fraction of her own magical power making the mixture far more potent than it would otherwise be.

When using the Heal skill the Physician gains a competence bonus equal to her class level on the Heal check. She may also craft the following nonmagical special substances and items: Antiplague, Antitoxin, Bloodblock, Smelling Salts and Soothe Syrup using her Heal check in place of the standard Craft (Alchemy) check. In addition the Physician can use the Heal skill to identify potions from the Conjuration (Healing) sub-school as if using detect magic. She must hold the potion for 1 round to make the check.

The Physician can create two special types of magical items-Medicinal Extracts and Tonics. Tonics are special performance enhancing elixirs that the physician or her companions can drink to enhance their own physical abilities, while Medicinal Extracts are more varied and behave like spells in potion form. Both of these are detailed in their own sections below.

Medicinal Extracts have the greatest variation in terms of their effects. In many ways, they behave like spells in potion form, and as such their effects can be dispelled by effects like dispel magic using the Physician's level as the caster level. Unlike potions though, medicinal extracts can have powerful effects and duplicate spells that a potion could not.

A Physician uses the same table as an Alchemist to determine the number of Medicinal Extracts of each level that she can create per day. In addition, she receives bonus medicinal extracts per day if she has a high wisdom score, in the same way that a cleric receives bonus spells per day.

When the physician creates a medicinal extract, she infuses the herbs and chemicals in the extract with magic siphoned from her own magical aura. Unlike the Alchemist's Extracts, the Physician's Medicinal Extracts do not become inert if they leave her possession. This difference is due to the fact that at 1st Level the Physician receives the Infusion discovery which replaces the feat Throw Anything normally gained by Alchemist's at 1st Level. Also this means that Medicinal extracts may also be consumed by non-physician's to gain their effects. Mixing a Medicinal Extract takes the same amount of time as mixing a standard Extract, 1 minute per extract created. The Extracts remain potent and continues to occupy one of the Physician's daily medicinal extract slots until it is either used or she prepares another one to take its place in which case the previous medicinal extract becomes a plain inert liquid. Most Physicians prepare many medicinal extracts at the start of the day or just before going on a long adventure, but it is not uncommon for an physician to keep some (or even all) of her daily medicinal extract slots open so that she can prepare extracts in the field as needed.

Although the Physician doesn't actually cast spells, she does have a formula list that determines what medicinal extracts she can create. A physician can utilize spell trigger items if the spell appears on the formula list, but not spell-completion items (unless she uses Use Magical Device to do so). A medicinal extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion – the effects of the medicinal extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the subject that drinks the medicinal extract. A physician can draw and drink a medicinal extract, or administer a medicinal extract to an adjacent ally, as a standard action. The physician uses her class level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level. .

Creating medicinal extracts consumes raw materials, but the cost of these materials is insignificant – comparable to the valueless material components of most spells. If a spell normally has a costly material component, that component is expended during the of that particular medicinal extract. Medicinal Extracts cannot be made from spells that have focus requirements (physician medicinal extracts that duplicate divine spells never have a focus requirement).

A physician can prepare an extract of any formula she knows. To learn to use a medicinal extract the physician must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the medicinal extract level. The difficulty class for a saving throw against a physician's medicinal extract is 10 + the medicinal extract level + the physician's wisdom modifier.

A physician may know any number of formulas. She stores her formulas in a special tome called a Medicinal Textbook. The Medicinal Text book functions in all ways, including cost, as a wizards spell book or alchemist's formula book. She must refer to the medical text book whenever she prepares and extract but not when she consumes it. A Physician begins play with two 1st level formulas of her choice as well as the cure light wounds formula. She also receives a number of additional formulas equal to her wisdom modifier (if any). At each new physician level she gains one new formula of any level she can create. Whenever she gains access to a new formula level, if that level has any formulas of the conjuration [healing] school, such as a cure formula, she automatically learns that formula and adds it to her Medicinal Text book. A physician can also add formulas to her medicinal text book just like a wizard adds spells to her spell book, using the same cost, pages, and time requirements. A medicinal text book costs as must as a spell book. A physician can study a wizards spell book to learn any formula that is equivalent to a spell the spell book contains. A wizard, however, cannot learn spells from a medicinal text book. A physician does not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them.

Surgical Strike (Ex): Replaces Bombs
The many years spent studying cadavers and researching the workings of physical anatomy have not only taught the physician how to surgically treat wounds but also how to inflict grievous bodily harm with a simple flick of her knife. This means that at any time the physician is in melee combat with an adjacent opponent she has the potential of turning her melee attack into a surgical strike.

To execute a surgical strike a physician must be in melee combat and her target must be adjacent to her. A surgical strike cannot be performed with a ranged or thrown weapon, or even a thrown melee weapon. Executing a surgical strike this way requires a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The physician then declares that she is going to execute a surgical strike before the attack roll is made, meaning that a failed roll to hit still expends a use of her surgical strike ability (see below). If the attack hits the physician applies 1D6 points of extra damage to her melee attack. This damage is precision based and is not multiplied on a critical hit. This extra damage increases by 1D6 for every two physician levels thereafter. A physician can only attempt a surgical strike a number of times per day equal to her physician class level + her wisdom modifier.

With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, blackjack, whip, or unarmed strike) a physician can attempt to execute a surgical strike that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage with her surgical strike, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A physician can only execute a surgical strike against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Undead, constructs, oozes, plants and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Creatures that are also immune to critical hits are also immune to the physician's surgical strike. The physician must also be able to see the target well enough be able to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A physician cannot execute a surgical strike against a creature that has any type of concealment.

Alternatively the physician can use her surgical skills to heal. Rather than using her surgical strike to cause additional damage a physician can work amazing feats of surgery on the battlefield to restore hit points to her allies. Using surgical strike to heal still requires a standard action, but it does provoke an attack of opportunity when used this way. The target of the physician's surgical strike is healed for 1D6 points of damage plus and additional 1D6 for every other physician class level. This also consumes a use of the physician's surgical strike ability. Note that this healing is not positive energy based, and that a surgical strike used in this fashion cannot be used to harm undead creatures. A physician cannot target herself when using surgical strike in this fashion.

Finally, as a physician gains levels she learns new discoveries that can change or alter the effects of her surgical strike. These Discoveries will be marked with an asterisk* and are detailed in the discovery section of the class.

Tonics (Su): Replaces Mutagen
At 1st level, a physician knows how to create performance enhancing mixtures that can be ingested by either herself or her companions to heighten their physical prowess, called Tonics. It takes 1 hour to brew a Tonic, and once brewed, it remains potent until used. A physician can only maintain one Tonic mixture at a time, if she brews a second dose, any existing Tonic mixture becomes inert. Unlike the Alchemist's mutagen though a Tonic can be used by anyone, not just the physician.

When a physician's creates a tonic, she selects two physical ability scores – either Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution to be enhanced. Its a standard action to drink a Tonic (just like a mutagen). Upon drinking the Tonic the physician or drinker immediately feels the tonic's effects as they feel the rush of adrenaline, the sky rocketing of their blood pressure, and the tightening of their muscles. This grants the physician or the drinker a +4 alchemical bonus to the 1st selected physical ability score and a +2 alchemical bonus to the 2nd selected physical ability score for 10 minutes per physician level. Unlike a Mutagen a Tonic confers no natural armor bonus and carries no penalty to a mental ability score, but at the end of the Tonic's duration the physician or the drinker is fatigued until they rest or the condition is removed.

The effects of a Tonic do not stack. Whenever anyone drinks a tonic, the effects of any previous tonics end immediately. When this happens the most recently imbued tonic takes affect immediately, and lasts for the tonic's normal duration but the users condition worsens by one step. If the user would be fatigued at the end of the tonic's duration ingesting a 2-nd Tonic would first negate the effects of the previous tonic and replace them with the most recent tonic's effects and once the 2-nd Tonics effects end the subject would now be exhausted.

Detect Poison(Sp) replaces Poison use (Ex):
-At 2nd level, a physician can use the spell detect poison at will as a spell like ability. Doing so only requires a move action, and for the physician to be able to touch the target.

Discovery (Su):
At 2nd level, and then again every 2 levels thereafter, a physician makes an incredible medicinal discovery. Unless otherwise noted an physician cannot select an individual discovery more than once. Some discoveries can only be made if the physician has met certain prerequisites first, such as uncovering other discoveries. Discoveries that modify the physician's surgical strike ability are marked with an asterisk* and do not stack. Only one such discovery can be applied to a surgical strike. The DC for any saving throw called for by a discovery is equal to 10 + ½ the physician level + the physician's wisdom modifier.

A physician may not select from the alchemist's bomb discoveries as they do not have this as a class feature. They may select the alchemist's mutagen discoveries but only if they have selected the Mutagen discovery (see PF: Ultimate Magic). Any discoveries related to Poison Use are likewise closed to them unless they have selected the use poison discovery.

Infuse Tonic When the Physician creates a tonic, she can infuse it with an extra bit of her own magical power. This inflicts 2 points of Wisdom damage to the physician and costs 1,000gp in rare reagents, but the dosage of tonic created remains active on its own and is not rendered inert if the physician creates another dosage of tonic. This allows the physician to create different types of tonics and keep them handy for emergencies. This does not allow anyone that imbues the tonic to gain the effect of multiple tonics at once, only the most recently imbued tonic has any effect.

Tonic of Acceleration: Whenever anyone imbibes a tonic, they gain a +2 bonus to initiative and their base land speed is increases by +10ft. While the tonic is in effect, the user also gains a +2 competence bonus on acrobatic skill checks.

Greater Tonic: The Physician's tonic now grants a +6 Alchemical bonus to one physical ability score and a +4 alchemical bonus to a second physical ability score of the physician's choosing at the time the tonic is created. A physician must be at least 12-th Level before selecting this discovery.

Grand Tonic: The Physician's tonic now grants a +8 Alchemical bonus to one physical ability score, a +6 alchemical bonus to a second physical ability score, and a +4 Alchemical bonus to a third physical ability score of the physician's choosing at the time the tonic is created. A physician must be at least 16-th level and must possess the greater tonic discovery before selecting this discovery.

Bleed out: Because of their anatomical training the physician knows how to strike the body so that the bleeding from the wound is not so easily stopped. Whenever the physician causes anyone to take bleed damage, the subject continues to take the bleed damage until stopped by a successful Heal skill check but the DC is equal to 10 + half the physician level + wisdom modifier instead of the standard DC 15 Heal check. The application of any effect that Heals hit point damage still stops the bleeding immediately.

Expert Healer: When the physician's selects this discovery their medicinal extracts from the conjuration [healing] school become more potent. Those medicinal extracts now heal and additional 2hp per formula level when imbued.

Combat Medic: The Physician has been trained for combat related situations and knows how to move about the battlefield to reach her patients without placing herself in harms way. By selecting this discovery the physician can as an immediate action move up to her base speed without provoking attacks of opportunity. The physician's movement must end next to a character that is either at zero hit points or dying. Once she has reached her target she can then administer any item, ability, spell, medicinal extract or skill that would either stabilize the dying character or restore hit point damage. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to the physician's wisdom modifier.

Minor Conditional Treatments: With this discovery the physician has learned to alleviate or cause the following minor conditions. Removing a condition from a character only requires the physician to touch the subject. This requires a standard action that does provoke an attack of opportunity. In any case where the physician is attempting to cause or inflict the condition the subject is allowed a Fortitude saving throw to resist and the physician must make physical contact with the subject using a melee touch attack that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The physician can only use these techniques a limited number of times per day equal to half her physician level (minimum of 1) + Wisdom modifier. By selecting this discovery the physician can now cause or remove the following conditions:
-Fatigued: The physician can remove the fatigued condition or cause the target to become fatigued.
-Shaken: The physician can remove the shaken condition or cause the target to become shaken.
-Sickened: The physician can remove the sickened condition or cause the target to become sickened.

Advanced Conditional Treatments: With this discovery the physician adds the following conditions to her list of Conditional Treatments that she can remove or cause. The physician must possess the minor conditional treatments discovery and be at least 6-th level before they can select this one. By selecting this discovery the physician adds the following list of conditions that they can now cause or remove:
-Dazed: The physician can remove the dazed condition or cause the target to become dazed.
-Diseased: The physician can cure someone infected with a disease as if she had cast Remove Disease on them with her caster level being equal to her physician level. Likewise she may also attempt to afflict the target with a disease as if she had cast Contagion with her caster level being equal to her physician level.
-Staggered: The physician can remove the staggered condition, unless the target is at exactly zero hit points or cause the target to become staggered for 1 round per two levels of physician.

Greater Conditional Treatments: With this discovery the physician adds the following conditions to her list of Conditional Treatments that she can remove or cause. The physician must possess the advanced conditional treatments discovery and be at least 10-th level before she can select this one. By selecting this discovery the physician adds the following list of conditions that they can now cause or remove:
-Exhausted: The physician can remove the exhausted condition or cause the target to become exhausted.
-Frightened: The physician can remove the Frightened condition or cause the target to become Frightened for 1 round per two levels of physician.
-Nauseated: The physician can remove the nauseated condition or cause the target to become nauseated for 1 rounder per 3 levels of physician.
-Poisoned: The physician can attempt to remove the poisoned condition as if she had cast Remove Poison or cause the target to become poisoned as if she had cast the spell Poison. In both cases her caster level is equal to her physician level.

Grand Conditional Treatments: With this discovery the physician adds the following conditions to her list of Conditional Treatments that she can remove or cause. The physician's must possess the greater conditional treatments discovery and be at least 12-th level before she can select this one. By selecting this discovery the physician adds the following list of conditions that they can now cause or remove:
-Blinded: The physician can remove the blinded condition or cause the target to become blinded for 1 round per level of physician.
-Deafened: The physician can remove the deafened condition or cause the target to become deafened for 1 round per level of physician.
-Paralyzed: The physician can remove the paralyzed condition or cause the target to become paralyzed for 1 round.
-Stunned: The physician can remove the stunned condition or cause the target to become stunned for 1 round per four levels of physician.

Conditional Strike*: With this discovery the physician can apply any one of his conditional treatments (minor, advance, greater or grand) to her surgical strike ability and deliver that condition to a target using her surgical strike. Only one condition may be applied per surgical strike. The target is still entitled to a saving throw to resist the effects of the condition being applied, just as if the physician had used the conditional treatment as a melee touch attack. Use of this discovery consumes one use of both the physician's surgical strike and conditional treatment abilities if successful. If the physician misses with her surgical strike she still expends the use of the surgical strike ability but not that of the conditional treatment discover. The physician must possess at least the Minor Conditional Treatments discovery before selecting this one.

Arterial Strike*: With this discovery the physician can use her surgical strike to deliver deadly wounds that do no heal so easily. When making a surgical strike the physician can choose to reduce her surgical strike damage from D6s to D4s and in return the target takes 1pt of bleed damage per Surgical Strike die. Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleed damage can be stopped by a DC15 heal check, unless the physician has taken the Bleed Out discovery (see above), or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage.

Hindering Strike*: With this discovery the physician knows exactly how to strike her target so as to slow down their reactionary ability. This discovery reduces the physician's surgical strike damage from D6s to D4s but in exchange the target cannot make attacks of opportunity for a number of rounds equal to the physician's number of surgical strike dice.

Dispelling Strike*: Not oblivious to the effects that magic has upon the body the physician has learned how to counter and dispel these effects by focusing the strength of her own magical aura through her surgical strike. Opponents that are dealt surgical strike damage by a physician with this ability are effected by a targeted Dispel Magic targeting the lowest level spell effect active on the target, using the physician's class level as her caster level. A physician must be at least 6th level before selecting this discovery.

Crippling Strike*: With this discovery the physician can deal ability score damage. For every Surgical Strike Die she forgoes she can deal 2pts of Strength, Dexterity or Constitution damage to a creature. She may mix and match this damage freely choosing to inflict part of the damage as normal Surgical Strike Damage and part of it as ability score damage. For example if the physician has 5D6 Surgical Strike Damage she could choose to reduce her Surgical strike damage to 3D6 and then apply 4pts of ability damage to any one ability score, or 2pts of ability score damage to any 2 ability scores. The physician must be at least 10th level before selecting this discovery.

Hamstring Strike*: Knowing which muscles and tendons to cut, a physician with this discovery and stop her opponent dead in their tracks. When a physician strikes an opponent with this ability she can choose to forgo some or all of her surgical strike dice. For each die she forgoes the targets movement is reduced by 10ft. This lasts until the target is affected DC 15 Heal check or the target or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage.

Quick Surgeon: A physician with this discovery can focus quickly enough that she can execute multiple surgical strikes in a single round. She can execute multiple surgical strikes as a full round action if her base attack bonus is high enough to grant her additional attacks. This functions just like a full attack. A physician must be at least 8th level before selecting this discovery.

Poison Use: With this discovery the physician has trained herself in the use of poisons and no longer runs the risk of accidentally poisoning herself when applying poison to her weapon. Taking this discovery allows the physician to take additional alchemist discoveries that are related to poison use but not poison resistance.

Swift Poisoning: With this discovery the physician can apply a dose of poison to her weapon as a swift action. A physician must be at least 6th level before selecting this discovery.

Power over Death: By selecting this discovery the Physician gains the ability to use the spell Breath of Life as a spell like ability. All the physician needs to do is touch the creature. She uses her physician level as her caster level. A physician may use this discovery a number of times per day equal to 1 + her wisdom modifier. A physician must be at least 10th level before selecting this discovery.

Discoveries that can be taken as they are (listed by book). Please note that for any discovery effect or number of uses per day related to intelligence, that discovery is modified for the physician by having its key ability reassigned to wisdom.
(Advanced Player's guide): Combine Extracts, Concentrate Poison, Dilution, Elixir of life, Enhance Potion, Eternal Potion, Extend Potion, Feral Mutagen, Grand Mutagen, Greater Mutagen, Infuse Mutagen, and Sticky Poison.
(Ultimate Magic): Alchemical Simulacrum, Alchemical Zombie, Cognatogen, Doppleganger Simulacrum, Grand Cognatogen, Greater Cognatogen, Healing Touch, Lingering Spirit, Mummification, Mutagen, Parasitic Twin, Preserve Organs, Spontaneous Healing, Tentacle, Tumor Familiar, Vestigial Arm, and Wings).
(Ultimate Combat): [i]Nauseating Flesh and Poison Conversion.

Disease Resistance (Ex) replaces Poison Resistance (Ex):
At 2nd level, a physician gains a +2 bonus on all saving throws against diseases. This bonus increases to +4 at 5th level and + 6 at 8th level. At 10th level the physician becomes completely immune to diseases both nonmagical and magical.

Swift Healing (Ex) replaces Swift Alchemy (Ex):
At 3rd level a Physician can execute skills of healing with amazing speed. The times required to perform all non combat related actions with the Heal skill (such as treating disease and treating wounds from caltrops...) is reduced by half. Thus where it would normal take 10 minutes to treat disease with the heal skill the Physician can do so in 5 minutes. Where it would take a character 1 hour to treat deadly wounds, the Physician can perform the same amount of healing in half an hour. Long term care only requires 4 hours of full rest or half a day of complete rest. This also means that characters heal twice as fast if they take a full 8 hours of full rest or a full days worth of complete rest.
-Finally providing first aid, treating a wound or treating poison is reduced from a standard action to a move action for the Physician.

Anesthetic (Ex) replaces Swift Poisoning (Ex):
At 6th level, a physician learns how to supplement uses of the Heal skill with pain-killing drugs. She gains Skill Focus (Heal) as a bonus feat. Any use of the Heal skill that has a risk of harming the patient (such as extracting a barb) only deals the minimum damage when performed by a physician.

Enduring Tonic (Su) replaces Persistent Mutagen:
At 14th level the effects of the physician's tonic last for 1hour per physician level.

Instant Healing (Ex) replaces Instant Alchemy:
At 18th level the physician can perform feats of healing with amazing speed. First providing first aid, treating a wound or treating poison using the heal skill is reduced from a move action (due to swift healing) to an immediate action. Second, the time required to perform other uses of the Heal skill such as treating deadly wounds or treating a disease can be done as a full round action. Long Term Care is not affected by this ability. -Finally as long as a physician is next to or adjacent to her companion she can administer any medicinal extracts of the conjuration [healing] school as an immediate action. She may even take a five foot step or a full move action to reach her target but she must end her move next to or adjacent to her target in order to administer the medicinal extract as an immediate action.

Grand Discovery (Su):
At 20th level, the physician makes a grand discovery. She immediately learns two normal discoveries, but also learns a third discovery chosen from the list below, representing a truly astounding medicinal break through of significant importance. For many physicians, the promise of one of these grand discoveries is the primary goal of their study and hard work.

The Physician can select from almost any of the Alchemist's discoveries that are not related to bombs as they are not a class feature. The following are additional Grand Discoveries that the Physician has access to.

-True Wisdom: The Physician constant research of medicinal techniques have given her an almost supernatural understanding of the body and its internal workings. Selecting this discovery permanently increases her wisdom score by 2 points.
-Ultimate Tonic: The Physician's tonic now grants a +8 Alchemical bonus to all three physical ability scores, Strength, Dexterity and Constitution. Also use of the tonic no longer causes the user to become fatigued or exhausted after its duration ends. A physician must must possess the grand tonic discovery before selecting this discovery.
-Healing Touch: The physician gains a healing touch that replicates the effects of a Heal spell. The physician can only use this ability once per day + a number of additional times equal to his Wisdom modifier.
-The Cure: Learning from countless exposures to harmful diseases the physician has finally discovered a common weakness that they all share. From this point forth, a Physician can cure any disease, nonmagical or magical by simply touching a creature. There is no DC to overcome, no skill check that needs to be made. The physician simply touches the target and the disease is removed.

The following Grand Discoveries are appropriate for the Physician to take as well:
(Advanced Player's guide): Awaken Intellect, Eternal Youth, Fast Healing, Philosopher's Stone, Poison Touch, and Grand Mutagen

”Alternatives for Discoveries and Grand Discoveries that are available” wrote:

On a side note: If you want to balance the playing field between the Alchemist and the Physician you can choose to allow the alchemist to take most of the physician's discoveries as well. If you do this here are a few ideas. Make Tonic a discovery just like Mutagen is in Ultimate Magic. DO NOT make Surgical Strike and Bombs into discoveries. This is one area that you should keep separated.

Alternatively you could choose to limit what Alchemist discoveries the physician can take. If you really want to draw a line in the sand consider not allowing the physician to take any discovery related to Mutagens or Cognatogens. Also remove all the Grand discoveries except: Eternal Youth, Fast healing, and the Philosopher's Stone. This will create a distinct area of difference between the two classes.

I'm moving on to a new thread as I have updated the class.

@ Cheapy
I have been considering adding a mobile discovery along the lines that you suggested. The idea is still in the "On the back burner, low heat stage" but here is the gist of it.

-Immediate Action
-Can move up to base speed without provoking Attacks of Opportunity.
-The movement must end adjacent to a character that is either at 0hp or dying.
-The physician can administer any infusion, potion, heal check, ability, or whatever as long as that action would stop the subject from dying. (usually through restoration of hit points).
-Could use a number of times per day equal to wisdom modifier.

Don't ask me what I would call it yet but possible candidates would be:
-Emergency Triage
-Not on My Watch
-To the Rescue
-Combat Medic

But dont forget, this class is mostly ment to support/buff/heal right?

Yes

Yeh I like the alternate way because it has a flavor element and a good mechanic element to it.

It is definitely more flavorful. You just have to remember the draw back with that method. If you don't have that creature type selected for your surgical strike, then you can't surgical strike it. It limits its scope of effectiveness to only the creatures you have chosen but gives you the ability to use surgical strike as much as you want on those creatures.

I would probably also have to remove surgical strike's ability to heal damage as well from this version as it would turn into an unlimited healing mechanism.

With the original version this wasn't such a problem because you had a finite amount of surgical strikes you could perform in a day.

With this version I wouldn't be adding in a discovery for a healing surgical strike. You could just take the healing touch discovery out of Ultimate Magic.

Is quick surgeon a full-attack action or a full-round action?

It's important for if they can move after making the first strike or not.

Sorry let me clarify: Surgical Strike. Should be a Standard Action. Does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The goal with the base version of Surgical Strike was to make it so that you can only execute 1 surgical strike, unless you take the discovery quick surgeon

If you take the quick surgeon discovery (at 8th level) and if your Base Attack bonus would grant you extra attacks, you can then as a Full Round action, make as many attacks into surgical strikes as you base attack would allow. It would be just like performing a full attack. The long and short of quick surgeon is that its just like Fast bombs but for the surgical strike ability.

I hope that cleared things up.

reply to Vero

Maybe create like a favored enemy system expect the physician uses surgical strike on a "favored patient" or something

Like I said above here's an alternate way surgical strike could be handled

An alternative could be: Unlimited uses per day but it is restricted as to the types of creatures it can effect barring those listed as immune to critical hits or those listed above. With this the Physician starts off at 1st level being able to effect his base creature type + 1 other creature type of her choosing with Surgical Strike as often as she wants. At 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level she can select additional creature types to be effected by the Surgical Strike. Plus the feat would change to Anatomical Understanding: allowing you to select the feat to select additional creature types to be effected by the surgical strike. You could gain the feat multiple times. Its prerequisite would be Must have Surgical Strike as a class feature.

Reply to Cheapy

I recently saw a class, the scout by Tripod Machine, that had an interesting ability. It was like sneak attack, except you got the extra damage whenever you took the Attack Action. That's it. Since that is a standard action, it effectively meant: once per turn, you deal normal damage +1d6/2 levels.

I thought it was fairly elegant, albeit powerful at low levels. Once second attacks came into play, it became merely OK. It finally allowed for something highly resembling sneak attack to be used as a ranged character, and was a nice way to fill the "sniper" character type that's so popular (note that my opportunities aplenty was partially made just to allow that character type).

I quite liked it. Just a thought for you to consider.

This is why I'm feeling out the Surgical Strike ability. I want to give them something like sneak attack, but still be unique to the class. Surgical Strike seems to do that. In some ways it'll be more versatile than sneak attack, as you don't have to flank or have an opponent be flat-footed. In some ways it more restrictive, because it means stuff like constructs, undead, and oozes just ignore you.

I'm not a fan of the gaseous extract, partially for the reason you outlined in the OP ("If you want healing bombs, go play TF2"), and partially because infusions are already really powerful as they give access to Personal spells to others. Personal spells are generally more powerful than any other type, since they can only be used on the caster. Granting them as AoE? Not a fan.

If my subconscious thinks of a nice mechanic for buffing, I'll post it.

I've decided to leave Gaseous Extract and that whole mess out. With the bump to the Tonic ability that I'm considering and the fact that they get Infusion built into Medicinal Alchemy means that they can already hand out buffs. Sure the Alchemist can do this if they take the infusion discovery. The fact is that the alchemist has to spend the discovery where as the physician will get it for free. I'm happy with that.

This class was suppose to be primary support/healing oriented as its top priority. Second was suppose to be buffs, which it can do as well as the alchemist. While it can't mass de-buff as well as the Alchemist, that's okay, but its also why I was considering developing the surgical strike. They will never be able to match the Alchemist and his mass effect bombs, but against a single opponent I wanted the physician to shine by being able to hit their opponent with single targeted de-buff conditions.