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We played for a couple of hours. Was fun, kinda light-hearted so far. Hard to tell how the campaign will shape up. I was definitely the least effective from a combat perspective, but my skills were pretty useful. I told a bunch of BS stories and drank a lot of wine, and encouraged everyone else to tell BS stories.

It was a good time. That's all I can tell so far. :)


So you are saying I should give up her dreams of learning more about magic or skill stuff? :) I figured with ST of 10, going Fighter would be a bit unrealistic. Especially with a Barbarian and a Ranger in the party.

I think she would prefer being ranged, avoiding danger other than traps, maybe casting spells or using magic devices from range, and figuring things out.

But I will consider combat-heavy options. Its just a surprising direction to consider. :)

Still listening! :) And thanks!


All,

TLDR: My core-book-only rogue is locked in, for better or worse, as I will lay it out below; we play tonight. But whats a good direction to go long term? Thanks!

Long Explanation:

An old college friend wants to run a Pathfinder game over Teamspeak using Roll 20 but he doesnt know Pathfinder and so is limiting us to the Core book for this campaign. So he got 4 people to make characters on 20 points for the point buy using Core rules only. This won't change.

We have a dex-based archer-oriented Ranger. We have a Cleric focusing on turning undead. We have a Barbarian who uses a greatsword. And we have me, an Int-based Rogue, who really doesnt want to fight at all, at least not yet. :) That last one is my character.

My friend is running some Pathfinder module thats just a one-time scenario starter adventure (for now) and we are all villagers going on a rite of adulthood celebration picnic kinda thing (thats how my character views it). Her family went to the big city and so she grew up as a well-educated city kid, but her parents returned to the home village so she is a bit of an odd rogue. A bit of an oddity.

I dont mind her having a sub-optimal start, even if it negatively impacts long term play. :) Thats the whole point. But I am wondering, once things get serious, if she doesnt die, WHERE SHOULD SHE GO FROM HERE? :)

Here are her stats and details:

ST 10, DX 16, CN 12, IN 18, WI 7, CH 12. Human. Her +2 went to INtelligence. Her concept is that she picked up all the in-character social and int skills from her class, plus stealth, but otherwise got none of the physical ones. She is impulsive (hence the low Wisdom) but due to it causing problems for her, she picked up (instinctively) IRON WILL and ALERTNESS as her human starting feats. She has 1 rank in each of the following skills: Appraise, Bluff, Craft Alchemy, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Knowledge Local, Linguistics, Perform Flute, Profession Alchemist, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, and Use Magic Device. Thats based on 8 skills for rogue, 1 for human, 4 for int. Her Favored class bonus is on HP, and so her starting HP are 10. She uses a Rapier, and Padded Armor (city girl) and Dagger, but never expects to actually fight at this point in her life. That will change. :) Her starting languages are probably common, elvish, draconic, and I can pick 3 more (due to Int and Linguistics).

Anyway, this character is interested in mechanical devices, magic, gadgets, how things work, etc. She is social, but aside from Sense Motive and maybe Diplomacy and Knowledge Local, her desires lie more towards Disable Device, Perception, and Use Magic Device, and knowledge/curiosity generally.

I figure she could aim towards Arcane Trickster. Not because of Sneak Attack at range, but really because she is a jack of all trades and spellcasting was something she wanted to do but her parents didnt pay for. And while we might never play that long, technically she could work towards level 9 spells at level 20. Or she could go all Wizard from here out. Or she could remain some kind of pure rogue who is all about maxing UMD. I love the idea of her being great at UMD, since she views it as a gadget skill. She wants to remain great at disable device and perception and sense motive tho (long story).

Or you know, I'm open to other options. But this is the character as she has to start at this point. Its based on her background as a village infant transplanted to the city, raised as a student/alchemist/merchant-to-be, but she always wished she could cast spells. But she likes devices and gadgets too. But where should she go? How should she grow?

I would appreciate any help! Core feats and equipment etc only! Thanks!

TLDR: My core-book-only rogue is locked in, for better or worse, as I have indicated above; we play tonight. But whats a good direction to go long term? Thanks!


Grey Lensman,

I dont actually want any of the things an inquisitor does, in terms of mechanics or role. What I really want is a cleric without spontaneous casting to cures, and without channelling, and maybe just one domain instead of two. In exchange I would want half- or 3/4- progression backstabbing, with perception, trapfinding, stealth and sense motive added to the class skills. I dont really care too much about rogue tricks.

I guess what I am saying is that an inquisitor streamlines cleric and fighter towards a Ferrari; I want to streamline cleric and rogue into a volvo station wagon. An inquisitor is precisely the parts of a cleric/fighter or cleric/rogue that I dont want. :) If that makes sense.

Oh well. :)


Thanks for the late responses. I appreciate them! :)


I really want a Cleric/Rogue. There hasn't been any compelling or non-frustrating way to play one since 2nd edition. I basically want 9 levels of divine spellcasting, with some trapfinding, and sneak attack on the side. I dont care about channeled healing or turning undead or rogue tricks much.

Anyway, some form of Cleric/Rogue would be on my wishlist.


Thanks for the replies. I will mull them over.

CotCThrone is 3.5 rules, right?

Headed to bed. Will check back tomorrow. Thanks much!


Are there any adventure paths (other than Kingmaker or Rise of the Runelords) where the party stay in the same area , such that they can have a home base and put down some roots in the community? Are there any APs set almost entirely around and in a city or a fort?

Our group wants to try a less travel-oriented campaign.

Thanks!


When you say the next two, which do you mean? The two following Iron Gods? Or what?


All,

Are all the APs going to be Mythic from now on? Or will some have mythic elements while others do not? Or will the APs be done in such a way that they have all the mythic and non-mythic approaches in each AP, such that you can opt-in or opt-out as desired?

I ask because I dont want to buy any Mythic APs anytime soon, but I do like Pathfinder APs.


Cool. There will be sleet storms on occasion, I expect. :)


Is a Sea Reaver Barbarian any good?

They have some cool abilities but I always hate giving up Uncanny Dodge.

Is it worth it? Thanks!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Just because you are wise, that doesn't mean a fence or a criminal couldnt put one over on you. They have to fleece the wise and the cautious all the time, if they want to survive in any world in which not everyone is gullible.

So by all means, switch Str and Con, and remain wise. If anything, this gives you a roleplaying hook of some sort, either more wisdom (realizing that wisdom alone isnt always sufficient) or perhaps giving you a suspicious nature or giving you a bit of a feeling of disappointment with yourself, or any number of things that could come from overlooking the fence.

There's always another way to spin something, from a character perspective.


Thanks for the reply. It helps a lot. I guess if I see an individual figure I want, I should snag it now. :)


Please forgive my questions if they are answered somewhere or if they are obvious to normal people. :) My search-fu is weak, and I am UI / layout - challenged. Oh and all of my questions are about the WizKids minis, because I dont have the free time to paint my own minis.

Can I order bricks of miniatures individually, or do I have to buy a subscription?

What exactly does a subscription entail? I found the splash page about it confusing, but I am easily confused. :)

Is the plan, going forward, to make bricks of painted minis for most of the adventure paths as they come out? Will WizKids ever do figures from older adventure paths?

Are there certain core mini sets that are always going to be kept available?

How do the special sets (such as the undead battles set on the home page currently) fit into the product line? I couldnt figure out where to find other such "non-core, non-adventure path" sets compiled into one place. Do they expire after supplies are sold or will there always be (slow, occasional) future availability?

I see individual figures listed for a higher price. I am assuming that these individual pieces are available until sold, and once they are gone, they are gone? And I assume that therefore some figures I may desire from a set wont be available for individual purchase due to the stock having been sold?

Sorry if these questions are compiled and answered elsewhere. I am none too clever at following product / web page layout, and I browse on a tiny mobile phone. So I do apologize if the answers should be obvious to me.

Thanks for any help, and for your patience. :)


Yeah the advanced race guide has aasimars, sylphs, etc living as long as elves or longer, which I prefer. But one of the pathfinder guys didn't like that. And when someone pointed out that the ROTRL campaign had an npc written assuming a more human lifespan, this PF developer kinda had the excuse he may have felt he needed to justify the shorter lifespan.

Now whether they went through with it or not, I can't say. I hate short lived aasimar, ifrits, etc on concept. So I never looked to see if they pushed that through. I guess if they did, I can roll up my Paladin of Asmodeus, since that was in a sourcebook too. :)


Why not be a dwarf or gnome who rides a great ape?


I strongly dislike tricks and traps. I also found the hunters bond for helping the party to be uninteresting, and something I dont enjoy dealing with.

As for re-writing the Ranger, picking the trapper or tricks stuff is already re-writing the ranger just as much, so why not re-write it in a way that I enjoy?

I love every ranger ability except hunters bond and the spells.

Anyway, I will go with four feats, and limit them to the ranger combat style feat list so as to minimize any encroachment into fighter territory.

Thanks for the responses. I will look closer at the third party stuff, but I dont like losing or changing any of the other abilities.


I obviously think spells are good and amazing and effective. But from a flavor perspective, I would prefer no spells and no animal companion. I simply wonder how many feats that is worth, losing those two.

No worries tho. Just wondered what people thought in terms of feat economy.

Thanks!


All,

I love the Ranger Class for the most part, but I don't really like the spell-casting or the animal companion in terms of flavor. However, all the various Ranger Archetypes which trade those out for stuff trade them for stuff I hate or don't care for, or which are tedious, and those Archetypes usually change other things I consider critical or essential as well.

I was wondering, if one were to drop Ranger spellcasting and Spell List/Trigger access and Animal Companion access and replace them with a number of Ranger Combat Style Feats or just general feats spread evenly across the Ranger's 20 levels, how many feats do you think would be a fair trade to keep the overall power level of the Ranger where it is?

My instinct is to say 4 feats, but I wanted to hear your opinions.

Thanks!


You could consider the Pestilence Bloodline. One of your abilities is to be able to stand in swarms with no ill effects. It might not be uber-effective but its kinda cool.


@TarkXT: Hmm. I will consider those ideas. Could be fun. I do like the idea of worshipping a god of madness.

@LordKadarian: Can you be an advanced goblin? :) I like their stealth and dex bonuses and stuff. :)

I do kinda like the idea of being an Ifrit Diviner of some type, just to get the dumb +18 or so to initiative. :) But I have no specific idea on how to make that overpowered. Its merely fast. :)

I have about 4 hours before I go over and start making the character so I will mull everything over as well as any new suggestions that might come in.

Oh my friend is pretty sure that even tho nobody else is gestalt, the GM will let me be a gestalt Sorcerer/Warlock simply because he wants to encourage crazy stuff. So I might do that doo. :) If he lets me. But he might also say no.

Anyway, I will listen to any and all suggestions.

Thanks!


I am not sure about the Theologian of Madness. I do like the concept. But I am not sure that being able to give the huge save and attack penalty to anything is worth the cost of many of my main effects being ignored at high levels. I mean all my mind affecting stuff. And while I know the debuff works on everything ... still. It isnt thrilling me. :)

I will keep thinking about it and I welcome any other suggestions. Thanks much!


We start tonight at level 2.

Thanks for the replies. I will look at the Theologian of Madness.


I guess I should have stated up front that I dont really understand or like the summoner. Something about it I just dont get. I made one once and I was the weakest party member. I also dont like alchemists.

I apologize for that. I should have mentioned that I suck with Summoners and Alchemists. :)

But still I do thank you for the reply.

To give more focus, I like being immune to crits. I hate being held or mind controlled. I love wizard spells. I would love shapechanging except its complicated. And I guess pathfinder shapechanging is not OP at this stage. I always loved the warlock conceptually but they were always kinda weak other than that gladius / binder hellfire lightsaber type build. Bleh.

I dunno. I'm stumped. :)


Guys,

A friend who used to run an evil 3.5 D&D game every other week moved away for a year but recently moved back. But we all play Pathfinder now. So he is starting his game again using Pathfinder but also anything from 3.5.

He runs an over-the-top style evil game and so I need ideas, especially over powered builds if possible (due to the fact that I tend to make pedestrian builds and I wont measure up if I dont do something) just so that I can bring something to the table. I'm not good at evil stuff. :)

So I am wondering if you have any suggestions for builds that would be fun, versatile, wacky, powerful, or whatever, and maybe which feats, prestige classes, etc from 3.5 are juicy and maybe even be a bit over-balanced.

I do prefer spell casters, especially wizards, but I am not sure I am going that route. The other players will be:

Werecat Rogue
Magus
Paladin (Anti-Paladin)
Tiefling Archivist/Binder

Help? Please? Thanks so much for any ideas!


So we are about to make this character. Sorry for the necro response. But the player wants to go with Alexander's crossbowman fighter build at the bottom.

And I am wondering, does the damage just come from the feats, base weapon damage, and weapon enchantment? I mean, since str does not add damage.

He is going with Str 10, dex 19, con 16, int 12, wis 10, cha 10.

Thanks!


Hey thanks so much. I appreciate both builds. I like the fighter one more, and the player may as well, simply because tracking debuffs could/may slow things down. But both look good. We appreciate it!


Oh wow. I hadnt even heard of Ultimate Campaign. The last one I knew about and bought was the one with the NPCs of all classes and levels 1-20. And before that the advanced guide. I guess I need to find the page on this site that lists new and upcoming books so I dont miss any. :)

Thanks!


Thanks for all the responses guys. If you have any more builds or suggestions, I/we are eager to hear them. I will forward this thread to the game master and the player so they can read them.

One specific question (from Paladin of Baha-who's post): what is the deal with retraining weapon specializations? Is that RAW/official or just a house rule? We dont really have anybody in our group who plays straight fighters, so I am pretty ignorant on several mertial rules.

Thanks!


All,

I have a friend who wants to play a ranged character like an archer or a crossbowman. He specifically wants to play a Kitsune. He does not like to deal with any tricky stuff like spellcasting or funky traps or animal companions. He just wants to be some kind of Kitsune archer.

What build do you recommend for this? This will be a kingmaker campaign and he will be joining our currently first level party. We have a cavalier and a barbarian and a wizard and an Oracle.

I was thinking he should go for the pure fighter/bow concept, at least before I knew Kitsune (-2 str) was a requirement. Our game master thinks he should go with a crossbow and the skirmisher Rogue thing for moving sneak attack since the racial penalty to strength will be present. I actually now don't know what to think now. None of us are really hard core gamists in terms of mechanics. So it's just has to kind of be fun for the player and work well enough.

Oh and we have a generous 25 point buy.

Help? Advice?

And again the player is very new to the system and just doesn't like any spellcasting or weird tricky stuff if he can avoid it. Unless it is something that is still simple at high levels but manageable to grow into. He has poor retention in lots of rules so complexity is probably bad.

Thanks for your help!


Thanks, I will take a look!


Wow. Thats way too many directions to consider for feats. :)

As for blasting, we will have an oracle of flame. So I am not sure I want to go that route. Also my last serious wizard was an elf diviner so I am not sure I should do that again. :)

Ugh. Decisions, decisions!

Thanks for the reply, and thanks to anyone who resopnds as well!


(The Kingmaker aspect is secondary really; Just listed it for context)

Our group was supposed to make new Kingmaker characters about a month ago but we were delayed. Last night we sat down and finally did it. I didnt finish due to some decisions I cant seem to make.

So I am torn on what school. I considered an Ifrit Diviner for the stupid good initiative roll, but I decided to go human. I was planning to maybe be a Conjurer and take the summoning feats, spell focus feats, spell penetration feats, improved init and maybe toughness. I could then use wizard feats for metamagic and get spell perfection at level 15.

All solid I guess but kinda boring. What I really kinda want to do is take fast learner, improvisation, and improved improvisiation so that I can get (by level 3) +4 to all unRanked skills, and in particular +8 to all int skills. Sort of a knowledge type guy. I would actually pump one or two knowledge skills.

Our group will have me (wizard), a cavalier, a saurial shaman druid, an oracle of flames, and a bow-based ranger. We have a 25 point buy. I was thinking 10 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 18 int, 10 wis, 14 cha.

With this setup I would get 8 skills per level so I would max out K(arcana), linguistics, spellcraft, perception, diplomacy, umd, sense motive, and bluff. Best of all, I would have +4 to all skills, which means I would have +8 to all knowledge and craft skills and appraise without spending points.

But of course the cost is that suddenly I am a rather unfocused Wizard.

Any advice on approach to take? I really like being a knowledge generalist but maybe I dont need the human improv line to do that. I also wonder if I should do Int 19 and Cha 12. I do want to pump a bunch of social skills but +1 may not be worth the hit to Int.

Any thoughts or advice?

Thanks!


Well if an item said "that the wearer can *cast*" then it'd count, I'd imagine.

Anyway, its a rules question I dont even want to think about. But I would appreciate a reference to the rule about the permanent magic item qualification stuff. Just so I can know what I'm house ruling. :)

Thanks!


I have to say, (personal opinion), that's pretty silly. Again, just my opinion.

What happens if you stop wearing the item for a day? Do you lose the feat? Or does it become inert for a day until you wear the item alone?

What happens if you found a helm of opposite alignment. Could your chaotic neutral character take monk levels?

What if they ever made a magic item that let you cast a level 3 spell once a day? Would that let you qualify for eldritch knight?

Or is it just feats?

Anyway, I certainly would house rule that out if I ran a game just because to me, its non-nonsensical. Fortunately, I dont, and none of you are in my non-existent game. :) So we can just agree to disagree.


Magic items dont qualify you to take feats do they? Just curious.

If they do, can I drink a potion of Bull's strength when I level up, and then when it wears off, lose the power of the feat, but have the ability to be buffed and then my feat kicks in?

Seems weird. I assumed you need to have the stats innately.


Wow. I ended up not going over tonight because they were gonna only casually discuss characters tonight but mostly watch episodes of Arrow so I stayed home.

I just got the text that they decided on Dwarven Cavalier, Human Urban Ranger and Human Saurian Shaman.

I dont even know what to think. :)


Thanks, I will consider the Diviner/Conjurer. :) Sounds good!


Cool. I think conceptually, I find the Diviner most interesting.

However the default Scrying power seems better for a Kingmaker game, whereas the Foresight powers seem better for simple fun factor. So I am torn on that.

I do have to say though that the idea of having Efreeti blood and going Conjurer and taking some of the other racial traits for matching that concept ... well, sounds cool too.

I guess I will dwell on it. I guess there is no wrong choice here, both will be good.

Thanks!


I am torn on which to play. I do know that we will use a 25 point buy, and so my Dex is likely to be 16 and my Int will be 18. So my init bonus at level 1 will be:

+2 trait
+4 improved initiative
+4 ifrit
+4 familiar
+3 dex

Even though I would probably be more effective being a Conjurer (Teleportation) Wizard, I do like the idea of Divination due to it being a Kingmaker game and due to the added init bonus and the d20 Prescience thing. Tho I guess for Kingmaker the Scrying Adept power from the basic Divination school would make more sense.

So yeah I am very much torn.

Either way tho, I will probably build as if I were a Conjurer. I want spell focus conjuration, regular and greater, and both spell penetration feats just so that my control spells are good, and I want the two summoning buff feats as well, plus improved initiative. I guess I will also use my wizard feats to pick up metamagic so that I can get Spell Perfection at 15, tho I have no clue what I want to perfect.

I could also go human, for the extra feat and for the ability to not look like a demon. :) But I like the ifrit +4 init more than the human ability to have +2 to int. I know that I should like the int more tho. :)

Thanks!


All,

Our group is about to make characters tonight for a Kingmaker game. I was thinking about making a Wizard optimized for Initiative, just for fun, and so I am thinking I will be an Ifrit with the +4 init racial swap-out.

However, I had been thinking Conjurer just because some of the other Ifrit swap-outs affect Conjuration and it seems thematic. But then again, with a big campaign about running a kingdom (I think? Not entirely sure whats up with Kingmaker) maybe it would be good always having some high level Divination spells in slots at all times, and I love the Divination option/subschool that lets me roll the prescient d20 a number of times a day and then basically use it for substitution. Plus divination would augment my stupidly high divination score.

Anyway, so, for Kingmaker, do you think a Conjurer or a Diviner would be best?

Thanks!


Thanks everyone!


Ok. I guess it doesnt matter then as long as the god isnt in opposition to nature.

Its always tough fitting concept and mechanics together for me in Pathfinder.

Thanks!


All,

I know Druids dont have to have a specific god. But I was wondering if it made sense for a Druid to worship Arshea, the Empyreal Lord of liberation, physical beauty and sexuality. The idea would be that the character reveres nature, but happens to revere physical beauty and sexuality most. The Druid would be Neutral Good.

Thanks!


I like the Witch spell list too. Ill Omen, Cure Light Wounds, Vomit Swarm (its cool and it scales), Speak With Dead, Poison (with Reach Spell or Spectral Hand), Dust Form (to be incorporeal but still affect others with magic), Heal.

Thats 1 too many, but those are a few of the ones I like.


I thought Heighten Spell was BAD for Spell Perfection. Sure, the DC would go up 2 instead of 1. But the text on Heighten Spell does *not* say to increase the spell slot value by 1, as most metamagic feats say. Instead, it says that the heightened spell uses as high of a slot as its effective level.

Spell Perfection lets you stack on a metamagic feat for free, but still makes the comparison of the overall level vs 9th level slots to remain valid. While Spell Perfection never uses the literal phrase "effective level" ... thats effectively (sorry :)) what that check for total levels (vs 9th slot) is.

So RAI, and maybe even RAW if you arent pedantic, seems to me that Spell Perfection gets trounced by Heighten Spell. And even if it doesnt, you still could get trounced. Check this out:

Fireball with Magical Lineage and Heighten Spell and Persistent Spell have an effective level of 6. Magical Lineage lowers the metamagic cost by one, but you still cant use a 5th level slot because Heighten Spell says the slot used is equal to the effective level of the spell, and that is 6th.

Anyway, I just dont trust Heighten Spell. What do you all think?


Ok so Quicken Spell at 9th, Dazing Spell at 7th.

But which MM feat at 3rd? I still want Persistent, even if I dont use it on Ball Lightning all the time. Because a Persistent entangle would be cool. Or whatever.

I still am unsure what to Lineage/Perfect. Ball Lightning seems cool, but its frustrating that BL isnt one of the possible spells for a spontaneous selection for a Storm Druid.

Anyway, thanks!


Interesting points. Too bad there isnt a Call Squirrel Storm spell that works like Call Lightni g except instead of the 3d6 lightning damage, the bolts will baleful polymorph the targets into squirrels. I think it should be 8th level. Oh! And then there could be an epic Storm of Squirrel Vengeance that turns whole cities into squirrels!

Anyway, my reason for wanting Persistent Spell on Ball Lightning (or whatever) is simply that each Ball is save-or-nothing, and that is pretty frustrating. And the higher you go, the higher enemy reflex saves get. Sure, when I first get Ball Lightning at level 7, my save DC would be 19 or 20. Not necssarily awful. But by the time I am throwing around spell perfected ones at level 15, my DC would be 21 plus whatever I can get from +wisdom gear. Maybe 23 or 24. But lots of foes will have spell immunity and resistance, which is bad enough, but also crazy high reflex saves. Heaven forbid they have a cloak of resistance. At that point, all Persistent does is make it palatable.

Anyway thanks for the response. I do like the idea of Persistent, Dazing and Quicken. I can perhaps get Rime or Elemental on a Metamagic Rod.

Then again, we dont really have magic shops in our games, as such. We use the random determination/low magic rules. Tho we can roleplay finding someone who will craft for us, or I could take craft rod. But I dont have room on this character. :)


I definitely want spell penetration. And I guess with my spells being about half-and-half conjuration and evocation, taking spell focus is perhaps not the best approach. So that leads me to this template:

1) improved initiative
3) undecided metamagic feat
5) natural spell
7) undecided metamagic feat
9) undecided metamagic feat
11) spell penetration
13) greater spell penetration
15) spell perfection

I agree that I really want Dazing Spell. I also sorta want Rime spell but about all I can think of that it works well with would be Ice Storm. Is there a Greater Ice Storm? :) Would be cool.

But other good metamagic feats would be elemental spell (i guess) and quicken spell and persistent spell. So I have 5 metamagic feats I like but room for only 3.

In a way I wonder if Quicken Spell is pointless. Well not pointless, thats silly. But maybe not optimal. Its not like I am making some crazy fireball blaster and I am trying to drop a quickened empowered spell perfected lineage fireball in the same round I am dropping a dazing maximized intensified spell perfected lineage fireball, or whatever.

I dunno. And then I still dont know which spell to take spell perfection on, or which spell to take magical lineage on, or whether to take reactionary vs wayang spellhunter for my other trait.

I almost want Magical Lineage on Ice Storm so that I could use Rime spell and entangle with no save for a 4th level slot. But then again, Magical Lineage and Spell Perfection on Ball Lightning would eventually let me keep a persistent ball lightning in a level 5 slot and then throw on dazing for free so that i can keep 3 or 4 targets stunned, and they would have to save twice every time.

But then again, maybe I should use lineage+spellPerfect on something I can spontaneously cast. I was thinking of Storm Domain first, then Air. Then I can spontaneously get Call Lightning, Call Lightning Storm and Chain Lightning.

Oh yeah, Chain Lightning. Maybe I should play for the really long haul. Get Magical Lineage on Chain Lightning and Spell Perfection. Then I could do either a normal quickened chain lightning in a level 6 slot (assuming that lineage works to remove 1 level from the spell perfected free quicken to meet the rule that my freebie from spell perfection cant effectively exceed 9th level as a spell). But I should definitely be able to do chain lightning with elemental spell (keeping it level 6) and then using spell perfection to put Dazing Spell on it.

But dang, thats a long road.

Anybody got any suggestions relating to these thoughts?

Thanks!

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