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Alchemaic's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber. 285 posts. 12 reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Can Oozemorphs use skills while in blobform? One can generate weapons from its bodies, but it doesn't say anything about dextrous hands or something. The only thing it retains is its base senses, so it should be able to use passive skills like Sense Motive and Perception, but stuff like Intimidate is doubtful and Diplomacy or any of the physical skills are completely unusable.


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Just a personal opinion, but it looks to me like the reason Fluidic Body is so bad is because it has to balance out getting flat immunity to crits, precision damage, and flanking. Which IS a bit ridiculous at level 1 honestly, I think the only other class that can get full crit immunity is Kineticist by burning itself out completely. But remove the immunities and replace them with maybe scaling 25/50/75% chances to ignore (hey, chimeric aspect and up seem to be good spots for those to come online), and maybe giving the ability to at-will return to your original solid form isn't such a hard pill to swallow.

Also, that shouldn't be a polymorph effect. A 19th level wizard who melts into a puddle of goo at level 20 shouldn't suddenly find himself incapable of casting Alter Self on himself. Just make it so that an Oozemorph is naturally an ooze or humanoid and it supernaturally turns into other forms, but it can still be affected by polymorph effects when in its base forms.


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Cantriped wrote:
Hmm, I didn't really see that much of a problem with the Shifter before, but in terms of ease of use these changes are generally positive for the Shifter. I worry that the ramifications of having two now entirely different class features called "Wild Shape" that are considered equivalent... even though they aren't really comparable in scope of effect or increment of duration*.

It might not be bad if the Shifter gets an ability with the "This counts as Wild Shape for feats and abilities" clause tacked on the end.


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I'm cautiously optimistic. The last time there was a companion book focused on (for lack of a better description) purely roleplay scenarios it turned out surprisingly well.


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BretI wrote:
If I were doing an oozemorph, I would probably go with something more like a lava lamp for coloration.

Oh hey, that's a pretty good idea for a carrying case. That way when you cease being able to interact with the party you can still be a good conversation piece.


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I still think a few things could benefit from wording clarifications regarding Shifter Claws. Not big things, just stuff like for Shifter's Fury it should note that the secondary attacks can still benefit from the DR bypass but not from the increased damage dice, or the same thing for Shifter's Edge. Or make it clear that Shifter Claws in full only applies to two attacks, and only those two attacks get the improved damage and DR bypass and all others are left as they were without the ability.


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FlySkyHigh wrote:
Shifter's Fury is a step in the right direction in my mind, trying to make non-tiger forms more competitive, especially in conjunction with the Shifter's Edge nerf. However, most of the forms that would benefit from this also pretty much couldn't use Shifter's Edge in the first place (their primary Gore attack doing more than your claws would). Tiger is just strictly better (It gets 4 uses of your claw damage, and therefore shifter's edge)

That's not how Shifter Claws works. Shifter Claws only apply to two natural attacks your form has, preferentially applying to claws. In the case of a Tiger form (which only has two claw attacks anyway, so I don't see where you're getting four from) the claws would automatically apply to the Tiger form's claws so you couldn't get the bonuses on the bite attack. In the case of a Stag for example which doesn't have claws, you would get it on the hooves most likely.

graystone wrote:
Why? Temp abilities qualify for feat prerequisites. Look at brawler's flurry and the two weapon fighting feat they get ONLY during that action. It's usable for prerequisites that call for that feat even though is not permanent.

Brawler's Flurry is explicitly called out as giving access to TWF, which only in FAQ explicitly grants the ability to use those temp feats as pre-requisites.

graystone wrote:
I've never found this to be true. Are you talking about PFS?

Horror Adventures actually. Plus in general people I've played with are very reluctant to let anyone use a monster feat, even fairly innocuous ones.


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GodsBlister wrote:
Another thing to note, would Thousand Faces even function with an oozemorph? Fluidic Form already gives them an Alter Self type ability for a super limited amount of time per day.

It would, it just wouldn't do much because by that point the Oozemorph would have enough time to use Alter Self more or less at-will.


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Phranklin wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
I do like the ability to make iterative attacks with a natural weapon though.
With multiattack feat the other attacks will be even more awesomer! :)

Most Shifters don't qualify for Multiattack. It requires a character to have three natural attacks at least in their base form, which only Oozemorphs have as a result of their Morphic Weaponry, and even then it's debatable.

That's on top of how it's a Monster feat, which requires explicit GM approval to use these days.


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Derklord wrote:
Giving the Shifter straight Druid style Wild Shape also leads to a class that is a strict downgrade from Druid, i.e. a class that completely breaks the other class design guidelines I quoted in my first post in this thread.

While that is true, the Shifter is kind of shackled to it from a very basic conceptual level isn't it? It either has a shapeshifting ability completely divorced from Wild Shape, which can generate needless complexity if it has to include rules for how it interacts with Wild Shape or other shapeshifting abilities on top of being a downgrade compared to the Druid (mostly because Wild Shape is just so comprehensive of an ability), or it has the Druid's full Wild Shape ability and is still considered a downgrade because spells significantly beat out the class abilities.

At least in the second case though it's still a decent shapeshifter.


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Also, as I was writing that I had a thought. Would having the Shifter with full access to Wild Shape (as a Druid of the same level, with whatever duration/uses per day they pick, maybe limited to just animals/magical beasts) who then gains a specific bonus if shifting into their Aspect work? That way they get full access to a range of utility forms/combat forms without being restricted to taking a flight form and the Deinonychus or Tiger in order to function at all, and they still have an incentive to switch to their aspect forms because they get access to special abilities or boons that you can't have in normal Wild Shape, like the Frog's Tongue ability, or just having way better claw attacks as a Bear.


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Dragon78 wrote:

-Natural attacks- Number of attacks, damage, and how they interact with racial natural attacks.

Don't forget about claw attacks from other class features, though I believe most of those have the "if you already have a claw attack, it goes up one step in damage dice" line added.

Dragon78 wrote:

-Class options- Feels like the class is missing some class options/has empty levels.

I think the problem there is that the way the class was designed sort of hid that fact from the developers as well as the players. In the normal chart it looks like it's getting something every level, but when you look at the actual distribution of abilities that PainfulBugger put together with the abilities that are analogous to the Monk's pushed to the side, you wind up with a bunch of dead levels. Same thing with the other abilities, you have a bunch of abilities that scale all the way up to level 20, but that obscures the fact that the class doesn't gain a single new class feature after level 5 (Since Chimeric Aspect and so on is really more of an extension of the base Aspect class feature than an ability in its own right), and of the abilities that do continue onwards only Aspects give the ability to make something relatively unique to the character. Compare that to Wizard or Druid, which get new spells at every other level and a smattering of new minor abilities, or Barbarian/Rogue who have talents at alternating levels, or even just baseline Fighters who get choices in Weapon Training groups and bonus feats. Those classes let you constantly grow and change your character, but a Shifter gets stuck with just a feat every other level and every 5 levels it gets to make a single permanent choice.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel like weak archetypes that are nonetheless thematic are fine, particularly when attached to a class chassis that is already strong. A book in which every archetype is strong probably needs toning down.

Plus sometimes leaning into a theme or toning down a class feature a player was not especially fond of is what someone needs to get them to want to play an example of that class.

That's true normally, but the problem is that in this case it's specifically an Alchemist, which for some reason had an archetype in almost every new release for like a year+, and the vast majority of them were either bad or just really boring. So while you're correct in the general case, Ice Chemist is just another bland addition to a mountain that really doesn't need anything new unless it's actually exciting or inspired.


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Fourshadow wrote:

Well, they admitted what I had suspected: Starfinder was an issue. It occupied too much attention and this product suffered as a result. I would prefer that never happen again. Thank you for the frankness of your answer, Mr. Bulmahn.

I like the changes and the only other thing I would change is to give the Shifter TWO aspects upon creation at 1st level. To be stuck with one until 5th level was the only real issue I had with the class.

Sort of similar to that, would it be an issue for a Shifter to get access to all aspects starting at first level, and then only choose what aspect to use on a daily basis based on the current restrictions? It keeps new players from being locked into an aspect they picked at level 1 that they thought would be fun but turns out to just not work properly, and it doesn't force someone to pick new things every day if someone has a set of aspects that works.


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FlySkyHigh wrote:
Given the fact that the "beast shape" of Wild shape is limited to the picked aspects, players might benefit from having the exact gains/losses/etc of each form listed out under the aspect, to prevent confusion and promote clarity.

This. I mentioned it before in another thread, but it would massively simplify the aspect ability if the exact stats were listed for the animal forms instead of saying "Like Beast Shape, but with these changes" which requires looking through three different sources for your final abilities. You could just have the basic ability score modifiers listed for the various sizes at the beginning of the section, then each individual aspect has a size listed and then whatever else.


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Quote:
A shifter can use wild shape for a number of hours each day equal to her shifter level + her Wisdom modifier. It need not be consecutive but must be spent in 1 hour increments.

Just want to be clear, does that allow for a shifter to swap shapes while transformed (changing from an Owl to a Bear within the same hour for example) and the single hour use ends when returning to normal form, or does each individual change cost an hour of time (with the assumption that returning to normal form costs nothing)?

If it's the latter, while it's still a step up from before, why not make the wording "level times per day, for 1 hour per use"?


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Here's the post that was made regarding the Shifter


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TTDScoop wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Oh, huh. I misread Elemental Fist. I thought the feat made you pick one element upon feat selection. I’m guessing the author misread it as well.
gotta love archetype features that do nothing. Le sigh...

It does though. It trades out Stunning Fist for Elemental Fist. It's just not a great trade, since Monk of the Four Winds gives a bonus on top of trading it out.


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TTDScoop wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
TTDScoop wrote:
Can anyone tell me what advantage the Elemental Strike class feature gives? I see no point to choosing after. Perhaps i'm missing a clever use or just reading it wrong. If anything, won't it hurt when trying to use some of those style feats?
You do extra damage a limited number of times per day, like a limited flaming weapon, only you get to change the elemental damage type. That lets you get around resistances and match whatever style you’re using to get bonus damage.
Sorry, i was trying to be non-spoilery and i think my question became vague. I know how the Elemental Fist works. Im just not sure how the features added benefit helps at all. Normally you choose the element before you strike but Elemental Strike lets you chose after. How does that impact it at all? Am i missing something?

That's exactly what I meant about it being really awkwardly written. The trade is just Stunning Fist for Elemental Fist, but the ability throws in other stuff alongside it for some reason.

...Although you do have a point. On re-reading it the main benefit of Elemental Strike is supposedly being able to apply the elemental damage choice after landing the hit, but applying the effect before or after makes no difference since you're either blindly guessing or you already know what element works best. A change would be being able to apply elemental fist itself on a successful hit, but that's not what the ability does.


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Elemental Monk is really awkwardly written. They way it's written makes it look like the archetype trades out every single bonus feat the Monk gets for the ability to use Elemental Fist, and then ancillary features get traded out for the ability to use other feats. I get what the idea was, but that makes the archetype look WAY worse than it is when the first thing someone's going to think is "It trades out ALL the bonus feats for ONE?"

Also, their Plane Shift ability is oddly written. The current wording says "It costs 1 ki to transport 7 creatures. Adding an additional creature is 1 ki." Is that 1 ki to transport all 7, then additional ki for every creature over 7, or 1 ki per creature as a flat cost, with a max of 7?


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QuidEst wrote:

All right, some stuff I like!

Elemental Monk: ** spoiler omitted **

So, it's functioning more like a MoMS, but specifically just for the Elemental Fist styles?


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Skeld, PDF Prophet wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
Does the Elemental Monk make use of Elemental Fist?

** spoiler omitted **

-Skeld

I assume it does other stuff too, right?


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Whoa, lot of unexpected stuff in that list. Unchained Monk archetype? Samurai AND Ninja archetypes? New Variant Channeling options? An Oracle archetype and Investigator talents that sound unfortunately similar to Arithmancy?


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Hopefully this isn't just an expanded campaign setting book like Book of the Damned was.


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Dragon78 wrote:
It would be cool if at first level you could choose what type of natural attacks you could get. Starting with two at level 1 and gaining additional ones as you level maxing out around 6-7 by level 20.

6-7 attacks made at full BAB with your full damage bonus would probably be considered too strong though. On the other hand, having two attacks that are your primary ones and have the others be secondary would probably be more palatable and would still make the Shifter a pretty handy natural weapon fighter.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Where exactly was that claimed, anyway?

The "It's supposed to be a simple shapeshifter" claim? I think someone cited it as a Know Direction podcast-related thing, might have been one where they recorded a Paizocon panel about the book.


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Fourshadow wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
AntiDjinn wrote:
bewareoftom wrote:

Question about the anathema (sorry if it was posted before), but does it keep the original poison's effects as well or is it all replaced by the debuffs?

So lets say I make an anathema from medium spider venom is it the 1d2 str dmg for 4 rounds AND reduce chosen ability by 5 for X rounds, or is it just DC 14 for reduced ability by 5 for X rounds?

The text says "When an investigator creates or prepares a poison, including poisons derived from racial or class abilities, he can spend one use of inspiration to create an anathema instead." So you get the racial targeting specification and whatever other ability you select instead of what the poison would normally do. The only properties of the poison held over are method of delivery (contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury) and save DC.
Ooh, crud. I misread that. Well, looks like the poison-using Investigator can't actually prepare poisons to bypass immunities. :/
Would it be a problem if it DID do that though? I can't see it being super overpowered or anything to finally be able to bypass the multiple poison immunities that creatures get just by existing and being a certain type. Maybe just have the Anathema effect wear off after a day so you can't stockpile the stuff.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your question, but the discovery Celestial Poison lets one poison both evil outsiders and undead (from Champions of Purity). It does bypass poison immunity for those categories of monster.

Yeah, which just leaves Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Aeons, Behemoths, Elementals, Inevitables, and Psychopomps.


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QuidEst wrote:
AntiDjinn wrote:
bewareoftom wrote:

Question about the anathema (sorry if it was posted before), but does it keep the original poison's effects as well or is it all replaced by the debuffs?

So lets say I make an anathema from medium spider venom is it the 1d2 str dmg for 4 rounds AND reduce chosen ability by 5 for X rounds, or is it just DC 14 for reduced ability by 5 for X rounds?

The text says "When an investigator creates or prepares a poison, including poisons derived from racial or class abilities, he can spend one use of inspiration to create an anathema instead." So you get the racial targeting specification and whatever other ability you select instead of what the poison would normally do. The only properties of the poison held over are method of delivery (contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury) and save DC.
Ooh, crud. I misread that. Well, looks like the poison-using Investigator can't actually prepare poisons to bypass immunities. :/

Would it be a problem if it DID do that though? I can't see it being super overpowered or anything to finally be able to bypass the multiple poison immunities that creatures get just by existing and being a certain type. Maybe just have the Anathema effect wear off after a day so you can't stockpile the stuff.


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AntiDjinn wrote:
But if cast as a spell, you can target another willing subject touched. What happens to that subject's actions? It is transferred to the new location on your turn, not its turn. Does it lose the entirety of its next action? Only lose the remainder of its current action (for example, if it was readying or delaying)? Or suffer no penalty and just act normally on its each initiative?

There's an FAQ about this exact question. Dimension Door only restricts the caster, not the other creatures that get brought along with the caster. So Phase Step, by virtue of being Dimension Door-lite also only affects the caster with the end-of-turn clause.


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Rysky wrote:
Even if we had an open playtest I can almost gurantee we wouldn’t have seen any of the archetypes.

Fair enough. Still, more editing passes couldn't have hurt.


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Rysky wrote:

It could be an oversight, or it could be intentional. This also happened with the Alchemist Metamorph (I believe) retaining a core ability they could not use. It was either the author or developer that came forward to explain that they had left it so that the archetype would be compatible with another archetype they liked.

So futureproofing basically.

Metamorph still has the issue that its only compatible archetype is Blazing Torchbearer, an NPC archetype that trades out Brew Potion for the ability to cast a cantrip and have everburning torches. That's not even an exaggeration, Blazing Torchbearer is literally an archetype meant for NPCs you gain from the Torchbearer feat. Even then, Brew Potion is a fairly minor part of the class, and is still technically usable if the character decides to multiclass or take a prestige class with spells. It makes it actually future-proofed to an extent, it's just not done very well.

Weretouched, on the other hand, has no use for the Chimeric Aspects, which make up the entirety of its later abilities. There is no class that they can multiclass into to make use of them, and even if there was it would negate the point of Weretouched which is "pick one aspect and be good at it." If they release a future archetype that happens to only trade out the Chimeric abilities then hey, that's great, but why didn't they just add those in when they first printed the class instead of leaving the most interesting archetype half-baked?

I'm not saying this was done intentionally or maliciously, but I'm saying that the archetype is very poorly written as-is and could have been fixed if one person had looked at it and thought "Hm, where's Chimeric Aspect?". Such as, for example, in a playtest.


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DeathQuaker wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
So, do the Chimeric Aspect/Greater Chimeric Aspect/Final Aspect abilities count as improvements to Shifter Aspect? Or are they separate abilities?

The rules in the book state:

Ultimate Wildness Page 28, emphasis mine wrote:
Chimeric Aspect (Su): At 9th level, when a shifter uses her shifter aspect ability to take on a minor form, she can choose two aspects and assume the minor form of each aspect.

This is not an example of awkward or shoehorned rules text. The rules appear to be very intentional and clear that yes, chimeric aspect is part of/an improvement to shifter aspect. (The shifter aspect description also references how it works with chimeric aspect.)

That's what I thought, but the book itself has exceptions. Fiendflesh has Fiendish Aspect replacing "wild shape, shifter aspect, and all improvements to shifter aspect", and Greater/Chimeric Fiend replaces "greater/chimeric aspect". Oozemorph replaces "chimeric form, greater chimeric form, wild shape, shifter aspect, and all improvements of shifter aspect". Rageshaper's Devastating Form replaces "wild shape, shifter aspect, and all improvements to shifter aspect" and Invulnerable Defenses replaces "defensive instinct, chimeric aspect, and greater chimeric aspect".

So, very clearly, the class was written assuming that they're linked abilities, but Chimeric Shape is not considered an "improvement of shifter aspect" as far as the rules are considered. Improvements in this case only refers to the new aspects gained while leveling.

Which means that the Weretouched only gets a single aspect, but retains Chimeric Shape, an ability it literally cannot use.


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Dragonborn3 wrote:

You know, Beast Boy would make a great example for what the shifter could have been. That or Animorphs.

You know, an archetype where you can Wildshape an unlimited amount(limited to animals you've actually touched, with a freebie at lv1) but if you ever stay Wildshaped too long you get stuck in it would be neat. Especially if you get Wild Speech or telepathy with it. For added 'be careful or get stuck' going unconscious wouldn't end the Wildshape.

Perhaps by Wildshaping the aspect gains some kind of influence over the Shifter, who can gain additional influence to get a burst of power from the Aspect, but if they gain too much influence they become an uncontrolled animal NPC under the GM's control.


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Cantriped wrote:
Most of all, I'm not disappointed by the Shifter. I get that a lot of people were expecting to be able to play Beast Boy, and this resulted in massive disappointment. However I also didn't expect the Shifter to compete with the Druid (perhaps the most powerful base class).

I don't think anyone was expecting that honestly. Ignoring the rest of the 9th level casting, I think at some point or another it was stated that Shifters (the base at least) would be all about animal shapes, which already puts it below the Druid's normal spell-based shapeshifting and Wildshape in general, since that grants access to Beast Shape, Plant Shape, and Elemental Body at the same time.

However, expecting it to at the very least be on-par with the Druid's ability to turn into animals is reasonable. If the class' main ability is going to be a focused version of another class' secondary ability, at the very least it should function as well as if not better than that class while within its narrow focus. It doesn't, so that's where the issue is.

Cantriped wrote:
In that regard I was pleasantly surprised that the Weretouched Shifter allows you to be in either your Hybrid or Animal Forms for many hours at a time. The fact that it gets only one Aspect isn't really a problem for me, because I don't think a "Natural Weapon Master" really needs more than one form.

Honestly, I think the Weretouched is closer to what the Shifter should have been than what we got as the base class. Apart from trading out all your other aspects (but not explicitly Chimeric Aspects?) for DR that stops being relevant when +3 weapons start becoming a thing. And, weirdly, most Paizo APs. Like is it just me or does every single AP have a masterwork silver dagger in the first or second book?

Anyway, Lycanthropic Wild Shape does something that I really like and think the Shifter should have done normally: It gives access to a unique shifter ability. Unlike normal Wild Shape which is just a degraded version of the Druid's ability (which is just spells as a class ability), Lycanthropic Wild Shape grants the ability to turn into a monstrous hybrid creature which combines the best of all worlds. You get bonuses from Wild Shape, you get the natural attacks of your major form, and you get to retain your ability to speak. And you can still turn into an animal if you want to, so there's no harm there. It would just be better if you could have turned into different kinds of hybrid instead of just the one.


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So, do the Chimeric Aspect/Greater Chimeric Aspect/Final Aspect abilities count as improvements to Shifter Aspect? Or are they separate abilities?


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Evra wrote:

Now strictly for house-ruling purposes, how would you deal with the missing info from the shifter's major forms (ie. owl has no flight speed, bear no natural attacks listed etc.)?

Seems the most logical thing is to fill in the gaps with the regular list for beast shape II.

That's how the class was written, yes. You get all the natural abilities of the creature in question (claws for the bear for example) but none of abilities that Beast Shape would grant, like Grab, Darkvision, Pounce, or Trip. Those sorts of abilities have to be added in by the Major Aspect ability specifically.

And, on reading over it again, Owl doesn't have a fly speed. Special movement speeds and vision are considered part of the form abilities that the Shifter's Wild Shape explicitly doesn't grant. Owl, unlike every other aspect, is missing its special movement speed.

But yes, to fix it with homebrew the best answer would be to just stick on the Owl's fly speed.


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Kalindlara wrote:
Indeed. But you're not completely locked out, as many older fighter archetypes are.

Well yes, but in fairness those old archetypes were doing the best with what they had. Selecting other weapon groups has no benefit for an archetype focused around using polearms and exclusively polearms after all, so they got their own versions of AWT instead since it didn't exist back then.


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Kalindlara wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
Actually, the Skirmisher Fighter mention brought up another question for me. Does the Tribal Fighter qualify for Advanced Weapon Training? Since it doesn't get to choose other weapon groups, it looks like it doesn't.

Sort of. It's quite a cunning design, in fact. ^_^

You don't gain additional weapon groups to trade away. But as of 5th level, you are a fighter with the weapon training class feature, and thus qualify for the feat. And since you're still gaining a weapon training bonus, it's generally compatible with the advanced weapon training options (other than those that vary by group).

So you have to spend feats for it. I see.


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Actually, the Skirmisher Fighter mention brought up another question for me. Does the Tribal Fighter qualify for Advanced Weapon Training? Since it doesn't get to choose other weapon groups, it looks like it doesn't.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
My feelings is, like the brawler, the thematic space is limited and hard to come up with good archetypes for because the class doesn't fit with the theme of the book. So we'll see few archetypes and since we'll think they are bad cause the shifter is bad we'll complain about why they make archetypes for a useless class and then they'll stop.

See I dunno about that. At the very focused level Brawler is thematically locked to "A guy who fights using his fists like a monk but without the discipline", yes, but if you break it down to a more general description of "Fightman who fights by imitating things he's seen" then it opens up a bunch of avenues. A brawler who fights like a Demon, a brawler who's learned how to use blood hexes and other tricks, a brawler who has a split identity with a different fighting style, etc.

The important thing is that the base brawler class actually has enough stuff to trade out for alternate class features, and they're spread out across enough levels that the archetypes can actually have a progression of features.

The Shifter gets... no new class features after 5th level, 9th if you consider Chimeric Aspect to be a separate ability from the base Aspect ability (because Greater and Final are just enhancements of Chimeric at best and shouldn't have been separate abilities).

Shifter is a little more thematically locked, but you can still apply "guy who shapeshifts" to a pretty wide variety of stuff, it's just... always going to be shapeshifting.


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I had an idea using the Totemic Initiate feat and the new Tyrant Totem rage powers as an Oozemorph to create an ooze character that can actually engulf enemies while in no-RP mode.

Unfortunately I don't think Morphic Weaponry counts as a specific natural weapon, it loses Aspects so it can't get the rage power from Wolverine, and any attacks from Beast Shape don't count for feats. Pretty sure that even any natural bite attacks from the character's base race get removed by the whole "base form is an ooze now" thing.


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graystone wrote:

No, the feature does NOT allow ALL natural weapons bypass DR.

"At 3rd level, her claws ignore DR/cold iron and DR/silver."
"Lastly, at 19th level, the claws ignore DR/adamantine and DR/—."

Note "claws" and NOT all natural weapons. Now if it's the "her natural attacks gain the same benefits granted by her shifter claws ability" part, that's JUST the first part of the paragraph. Taken as a whole, it's is pretty clear what that means as the NEXT sentence says "If the form she takes has claw attacks..." and the NEXT says "If the form does not have claw attacks..."

So, it tells you how it affects natural attack for all cases [with or without claws]... If "her natural attacks gain the same benefits granted by her shifter claws ability" is actually meant to cover all natural attack for DR, it should say "her natural attacks ignore DR as granted by her shifter claws ability": it does what you think it did without ANY ambiguity whatsoever AND uses less words...

Some of the writing in the book has already been shown to be questionably worded and edited, so I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here and assuming that the class wasn't intentionally written with a class feature that's so huge of a trap that a pit trap the size of the Grand Canyon is a speck in comparison.


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doc the grey wrote:
I mean, we still don't even have a shark form! And the shifter feels like something I want to see in a Skull & Shackles game that attacks sailors thrown into the water to the Jaws theme.

Nah, you're better off with an Aquanaut Fighter using Shark Style and the Boot Equipment Trick so you can make a 90-degree turn in the air and knock people off of boats.


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graystone wrote:

Shifter’s Edge: "Whenever you use Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack with your claws or a natural attack augmented by your claws, you also add your shifter level to the damage."

Shifter Claws: "If the form does not have claw attacks, she can choose up to two natural attacks that would deal less damage than her shifter claw damage and have those attacks instead deal the same damage as her shifter claws."

Shifters claws explains what attacks it augments [claws or 2 other attacks if no claws], and shifter's edge tells you what it adds to [your claws or a natural attack augmented by your claws]. So it's your claws or two other natural attacks if no claws... IMO, it seems pretty clear.

The trouble is with the "augment" part. Because Shifter Claws the ability does more than improve the damage of the natural weapons, it also gives the DR bypass abilities to all natural attacks which is also augmenting those natural attacks..


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graystone wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
graystone wrote:
"Shifter's Edge only apply to whatever natural attacks gain the damage boost from Shifter Claws (which would be whatever claws have lower damage, or two of your natural attacks)"
Where's that from?

Your opening post. You asked a question and I replied with the option that was correct.

EDIT: as to how I came to that conclusion, I just looked at the feat and shifter's claw side by side. It seems clear to me.

Ah I see. I was hoping for something that clears the actual wording up a bit, because personally I think it's worded a bit too ambiguously to say.


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graystone wrote:
"Shifter's Edge only apply to whatever natural attacks gain the damage boost from Shifter Claws (which would be whatever claws have lower damage, or two of your natural attacks)"

Where's that from?


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The funny thing is that he messed up Power attack and how it works with natural attacks
Huh, I didn't notice that and completely forgot about that power attack rule. For other people's reference, power attack has a 1.5x multiplier when making a natural attack that adds 1.5x your Strength (for example most Bite attacks do this). That build assumes it adds the 1.5x damage to ALL natural attacks.
If something is your only natural attack its at 1.5 OR if you're a dragon your bite is at 1.5

Which is literally never the case for Shifters.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Oh you're right, I forgot that shifter's edge only applies to your claws or the natural attacks that your claws are replacing.
Re-reading Shifter's Edge and the Shifter Claws abilities, it's actually really unclear what counts as "augmented". Is it all natural attacks, since they get the benefit from the DR bypassing ability? Is it just whatever attacks have had their damage boosted by Shifter Claws?
I would assume just the attacks that are using the claw's stats. I believe it seems to be tied to just 2 attacks.

Maybe, but if that's the case the huge nerf from full level to half level is even more massive. If it's *all* natural attacks then it's more reasonable.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Or worded differently, what exactly does "a natural attack augmented by your claws" mean? Does the Shifter's Edge bonus apply to all natural attacks that recieve the DR bypass benefits of Shifter Claws (i.e. all of them), or does Shifter's Edge only apply to whatever natural attacks gain the damage boost from Shifter Claws (which would be whatever claws have lower damage, or two of your natural attacks)?


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This got brought up elsewhere, but what exactly does "a natural attack augmented by your claws" mean in the Shifter's Edge feat? Does that apply to all natural attacks a Shifter has, since the Shifter Claws ability grants the ability to bypass DR to all of its attacks, or does that apply to only natural attacks that have their damage improved by Shifter Claws, which would typically just be two of them?

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