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Hand of the Inheritor

AerynTahlro's page

653 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Aren't there some traits that give you a minor SLA?

Yes--that's what sparked my interest in this topic originally.

Magical Talent is one of them but Azten pointed out that Alluring is far better.

Jiggy wrote:
There's also a post made by the Pathfinder Design Team account explicitly stating that "ability to cast spells" does not mean "more than one spell".

Man... two RPG Superstars telling me I have bad information in the same post in the span of one hour... I'm going to go ahead and sit in the corner.

RainyDayNinja wrote:
If you dig up the original threads from when the FAQs were issued, the developers said that just one SLA counts as "able to cast spells." In fact, SKR even used the example of a rogue with the Minor Magic talent qualifying for Arcane Strike.

Thank you for saying that SKR is the one who posted it, and what it was about. You gave me what I needed to find that thread:

Original post

I am happy to be wrong, happier that there is a direct quote to prove that this works. I would be even happier if this information was put into the FAQ. Disregard my previous musings.

Azten wrote:

Spell-Like Abilities: How do I know whether a spell-like ability is arcane or divine?

Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

I spotted those FAQ's as I waited for my post to update and decided to just delete the post while I read and re-read the FAQ's... guess I didn't delete fast enough. Believe me, I'm on the side of wanting this to work (tried to ask this myself before), but the wording of those FAQ's still makes me feel like this is a gray area in this instance. I'm not trying to be argumentative or obtuse here, just discussing this. Based on the number of threads on this exact topic, it blows me away that this still hasn't been spelled out in the FAQ.

The combination of the two FAQ's tells me two things...
1. You count as being able to cast {spellname} by having it as a spell-like ability
2. The "spell" being cast by the SLA counts as arcane or divine based on the criteria in the FAQ

I definitely see and understand the logic of "If I count as being able to cast {spellname} and {spellname} counts as Arcane, then logically speaking I can cast an arcane spell". (Of course, technically speaking, Arcane Strike requires the capability to cast Arcane spells--plural, but skipping that issue...) Also to note, the spell "counting as arcane" does not actually make it an arcane spell.

The reason why I'm pointing to a gray area is because the first FAQ ("Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites") points to the SLA counting on an individual level, not as counting as if you had Arcane/Divine spellcasting ability with only the capability to cast that one specific spell. A Sorc/Wiz has the ability to cast Arcane spells--even if that character only knew one spell, they still have the ability to cast spells. In the FAQ example, you count as being able to cast an Arcane Dimension Door, but it's not saying that you count as being able to cast Arcane spells in general.

If you scroll up one post in that FAQ list, you'll see that an SLA does not count as having the spell for the purpose of Spell-Completion items:

FAQ wrote:
A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list

And this is why this is confusing... An SLA counts as arcane or divine and counts as if you were able to cast the spell when it comes time to specific pre-requisites on feats and item crafting, but it does not count as you actually being capable of casting the spell when it comes time to spell completion/trigger items. Point is, it seems like you count as being able to cast the spell, but not actually count as having the ability to cast the spell.

Point is, does the specific inherently imply the general?

If yes, then technically speaking you would need at least 2 Arcane SLA's to qualify for the feat.

Mythic +10 Artifact Toaster wrote:
just a comment on armbuster, but aparently crossbows are under craft: weapons, this is according to the core rulebook page 93 table 4-4. maybe reword it as a bonus on craft weapon checks to make and repair both crossbows and crossbow bolts.

Well that's a rather embarrassing 'oops'... Thank you, I'll adjust it so that the bonus skill ranks in Craft Weapons only apply to crossbows.

Kazaan wrote:
Hmm... not quite what I expected. Still, not a bad concept. Maybe the ability to load gunpowder packs on the bolts that give them a bit of added distance and punch?

The archetype was written to present a 'gunslinger' in a campaign without gunpowder or firearms. While the crossbow in the video you linked certainly has that extra 'awesome-factor', re-tooling that particular weapon would take some work. It would also reduce the viability of the class if it was pigeon-holed into one specific weapon.

As far as adding distance/punch, it doesn't need it. A light crossbow has a range of 80' and a heavy crossbow has 120'. This is already 10' farther than the composite bows, and 20' farther than the non-composite bows. Damage is also already in line.

The major issue with crossbows in the d20 system stems from the feat investment in making reloads a free action and the lack of bonus damage (meaning the strength damage from a composite bow). The feat investment can be resolved through the class/archetype, as can the bonus damage. The bonus damage solution I took was to stay truer to the original Gunslinger--just add dex. I suppose you could remove the dex-to-damage part and add something else in to pack a harder punch, but keeping things simple was my goal.

Jamie Charlan wrote:

How does Dead Shot interact with Double Crossbows?

One problem I'm seeing is that you're in deep *** if waiting till fifth level to get Rapid Reload. For a crossbow user it's usually one of those "that was your human bonus feat" deals.

Crossbow archetypes interest me, as it literally takes class abilities to make up for their treatment by devs under the d20 systems [balance be damned, it's unrealistic to have quick loading in a world with giant robot spiders, but we shouldn't give crossbows their penetration and power because game balance?].

As far as Dead Shot and Double Crossbows... The original ability does not indicate that you cannot use it with a Double-Barrel Pistol/Musket, so I would say that double crossbows would work just fine. I did not consider double crossbows while making this, though, so that certainly begs the question of whether or not this working with double crossbows would leapfrog it over the fighter in power. More playtesting is clearly needed, thank you for bringing that up.

I suppose you could always take Rapid Reload at a lower level and then re-train it to something else using the Downtime System that Paizo created in Ultimate Campaign, but I don't see that as necessary. Reloading a Hand or Light Crossbow without Rapid Reload is a Move Action, and since you can pick up other important ranged feats before level 5, I don't see it as an issue. Using a standard action to fire and a move action to reload puts you a step behind bow-users (where they can fire and take a Move action), but isn't terrible.

So just did a few hours of playtesting and now have revision 1 of the archetype.

I have uploaded the new document to google drive here.

Any further reviews or thoughts are appreciated.

Round 1: Character sheets:

We found that the boltslinger was too feat-starved (due to needing crossbow feats). This was resolved by adding the following line to Arbalest Training, "She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of crossbow and is treated as having the Rapid Reload feat for that crossbow (this also qualifies the boltslinger for any feats or abilities requiring the Rapid Reload feat when applied to this crossbow type)."

We also noted that the Focused Bolt deed was a little lacking in how it was thought-out (honestly I tossed it together in about 15-20 minutes). Being that it costs a grit to activate and grit is limited, the deed was changed to this:
Focused Bolt (Ex): At 1st level, the boltslinger can expend one grit and a Swift action to focus on one target to either gain a bonus to attack equal to her Wisdom Modifier or a bonus to damage equal to her boltslinger level on her next attack.
Martial classes never really get to harness the Swift action in the action economy, and making this cost a grit does help to balance the boost and prevent overuse.

Round 2: Compare boltslinger to fighter:

This put us into the second round, where we compared the boltslinger's numeric stats to a ranged fighter using a composite longbow of the same level. The boltslinger ended up with a higher chance to hit and inflicted slightly more damage than the fighter. To resolve that, I removed the verbiage from Arbalest Training that allowed the boltslinger to get the fighter-only feats (Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Penetrating Shot, and Greater Penetrating Shot).

With the boltslinger now unable to get Weapon Specialization, the class could now not obtain Point-Blank Master (to prevent AoO's from firing) until the level 11 deed. To try to help the class out a bit (it is an archetype that is based entirely on ranged attacks...) I removed Crossbow Mastery from the level 7 deed and shifted Point-Blank Master to that deed. Now the boltslinger can obtain this feat's effect (if he has 1 grit remaining) a full 2 levels after the earliest point that a fighter can get it.

I also noticed that I failed to copy the Bleeding Wound deed into my document. That has now been added.

Round 3: Solo combat:

Round 3 was pitting a boltslinger against 3 scenarios as the only class. This test was followed by a fighter of the same level and approximate spec (ranged, but using a composite longbow) to see which one performed better. The hope was that the fighter would slightly out-perform the boltslinger.

Level 10 PC's, 25-pt buy with 62k in starting funds. Human. We min-maxed a bit on purpose to test the upper limit. Hit points were calculating using max for first level, then average for following levels.

  • Class versus 1x Frost Worm starting 100' away, Worm got a surprise round but Boltslinger had higher initiative after that. Setting was an open field
  • Class versus 4x Dire Apes starting 30' away, no surprise round, initiative put 2 apes before the Boltslinger. Setting was a temperate forest.
  • Class versus 3x Dire Bears 40' away, no surprise round, initiative put 1 bear before the Boltslinger. Setting was a dark cave.

The boltslinger killed the Worm in 3 rounds, successfully reflexing from the breath weapon and the explosion on death. Boltslinger survived, but barely. However, the fighter wasn't so lucky. The worm died in 2 rounds, but the fighter failed both reflex saves and died.

The 4 apes died without even scratching the boltslinger, but beat up the fighter a little.

The boltslinger just barely managed to kill the 3 bears without dieing. Some bad rolls on the claw attacks saved the slinger from being grappled. The fighter wasn't as lucky. His lower AC let him get hit more and even grappled. After killing 2 bears, the third bear managed to kill the fighter while it had exactly 1 hit point remaining.

Boltslinger stats:

Str 8, Dex 24, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10
HP 79, AC 28, Flat 19, Touch 21
Fort 9, Ref 15, Will 8
Feats: Weapon Focus {Heavy Crossbow}, Deadly Aim, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Crossbow Mastery, Improved Critical
Gear: Belt of Physical Might +2 (Dex/Con), Handy Haversack, Ring of Protection +2, +3 Mithril Chain Shirt, Boots of Speed, +3 Heavy Crossbow, Cloak of Resistance +1, 2900gp

Fighter (Archer Archetype) stats:

Str 24, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
HP 79, AC 22, Flat 18, Touch 15
Fort 9, Ref 9, Will 5
Feats: Weapon Focus {Longbow}, Deadly Aim, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Specialization {Longbow}, Greater Weapon Focus {Longbow}, Clustered Shots, Improved Critical, Toughness
Gear: Belt of Physical Might +2 (Str/Dex), Ring of Protection +1, +3 Mithril Chain Shirt, Boots of Speed, +3 Composite Longbow Str 7, Cloak of Resistance +2, 5000gp

We did note that the fighter may have survived better if we spent 2k on an Amulet of Natural Armor +2 and swapped his Str/Dex scores (this would have dropped damage output slightly but increased chance to hit).

The Golux wrote:

Sorry, I didn't see that you linked the archetype. And it's not just the metal stocks, it's the metal arms, I think.

No worries, I just wanted to make sure I didn't fail in my search-fu. Had there been a different archetype I definitely would have taken a look. And I suppose metal arms would make a difference.

SeeleyOne wrote:
I think the damage went up two steps, as per a chart on page 145 in the Core book.

Got it. I didn't have a chance to look up the chart.

SeeleyOne wrote:

I like this idea. I am still on the fence about guns in the game, but this gives the crossbow wielder some style.

One thing that I do in my games is have metal versions of the crossbows. The normal Core stats are for wooden crossbows. Here are the stats that I use:


Metal Hand Crossbow
Cost: 30 GP, Weight: 3, Damage: 1d8

Metal Hand Repeating Crossbow
Cost: 300 GP, Weight: 6, Damage: 1d8

Metal Heavy Crossbow
Cost: 75 GP, Weight: 12, Damage: 3d8

Metal Heavy Repeating Crossbow
Cost: 600 GP, Weight: 18, Damage: 3d8

Metal Light Crossbow
Cost: 50 GP, Weight: 6, Damage: 3d6

Metal Light Repeating Crossbow
Cost: 375 GP, Weight: 9, Damage: 3d6

The different versions are based on their wooden versions, in a manner similar to how a Composite bow is based on its normal version. For example. Weapon Focus Light Crossbow applies to both Light Crossbow and Metal Light Crossbow. The same goes for Repeating versions, which in my opinion is still the same thing, only with a variation in loading.

An interesting idea... Looks like you increased the damage dice by 3 steps? I'm not in any way an expert on crossbows, so this is a legitimate question (not a jab). Does changing the stock's material improve the firing quality (and thus damage)?

Threeshades wrote:

I made an archetype with the same intention and name, you can find it on the bottom right side of this.

I replaced the gunsmith ability with the ability to add wisdom to the attack roll at short range, since the gunsmith ability really only exists to give low level gunslingers access to their weapon of choice at all (because guns start in the 4-digit price range), and so i could replace the touch attack ability.

Definitely an interesting build. Have you tried playtesting it yet?

As I said about mine, I threw it together doing as much direct ability conversions as possible. I'm curious if the Wisdom to attack with a full BAB is too much (at a glance it seems like it would put their attacks maybe 1/4 to 1/2 of the way back towards touch AC).

Gunsmith is more than just receiving your first firearm, it also gives Gunslingers a free feat (Gunsmithing) which allows them to craft weapons and ammo very quickly (and inexpensively) without needing to make any kind of skill check. That's why I went with giving free ranks to Craft:Crossbows and reducing the crafting time needed. My second thought with giving those skill ranks was that it would make it easier for the Boltslinger to pick up Master Crafstman and Craft Magic Arms & Armor to enchant their crossbow(s).

The Golux wrote:
Looks pretty cool. I think one of Epic Meepo's archetypes did something a little similar, too.

Is there a different archetype that he/she did beyond the one that I linked?

Cthulhudrew wrote:
What's an "armbruster"? I've never heard that term used in association with crossbows before.

A fancy-sounding name of a crossbow-maker that I found :-p

ahayford wrote:
If its just the fluff you object to, why make things so m ch more difficult for youtself, and just use gunslinger as is with xbows instead of guns. Make the class use special exotic crossbows with the same chances for failure as firearms...and special rare bolts to replace the expensive ammo....maybe alchemical in nature.

Unfortunately a direct conversion doesn't logically work on many of the abilities.

I do like the alchemy suggestion, so I will think about switching it to alchemy-based weaponry that mimics firearms at a much lower velocity (so no touch AC).

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Quick background: I am prepping to run a homebrew campaign and one of my players asked if it would be possible to play a gunslinger. I'm personally not a fan of firearms/gunslingers in the d20 system and more importantly they don't fit into my campaign setting. That said, the player asked if Crossbows could be subbed out for the firearms, so I spent an hour or two drafting an archetype of the Gunslinger for this purpose. Yes, I know, sounds like Diablo III (actually, can we pretend that that disappointment of a sequel never happened?), but not quite.

I tried to keep as many of the abilities the same or true to their original nature. I'd say that this ends up being similar to a fighter with some added abilities in lieu of Weapon Training. Attacks resolve normally against AC rather than being treated as a special touch attack. I am, of course, concerned about overall strength and versatility versus the base classes, so any input would be appreciated.


Starting Wealth: 5d6 x 10 gp (average 175gp) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Boltslinger are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all crossbows. They are proficient with all light armor.
This replaces a Gunslinger's standard weapon and armor proficiency.

You gain a bonus skill rank every level that must be placed into Craft: Crossbows. When crafting a crossbow or ammunition, use the item's value in gold pieces rather than silver pieces to determine your progress.
This replaces Gunsmith.

Grit (Ex)
This functions as a Gunslinger's Grit (1st level), but applies to crossbows rather than guns.

Nimble (Ex)
As Nimble (2nd level).

Bonus Feats
As Bonus Feats (4th level).

Arbalest Training (Ex)
Starting at 5th level, a Boltslinger can select one specific type of crossbow (such as a Hand Crossbow, Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Repeating Crossbow, etc). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of crossbow. Additionally, she can treat her Gunslinger level as her effective Fighter level for the purposes of obtaining the following feats with the selected crossbow: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Penetrating Strike, & Greater Penetrating Strike. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the Boltslinger picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well.
This ability replaces Gun Training.

True Grit (Ex)
As True Grit.


Deadeye (Ex): At 1st level, the Boltslinger can ignore the penalty for shooting beyond her crossbow's first range increment. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point per range increment beyond the first. The Boltslinger still takes the -2 penalty on attack rolls for each range increment beyond the first when she performs this deed (unless grit is expended).
This deed modifies Deadeye.

Boltslinger's Dodge (Ex): As Gunslinger's Dodge.

Focused Bolt (Ex): At 1st level, the Boltslinger can spend a 1 grit and a full-round action to focus on one target to either gain a bonus to attack equal to her Wisdom Modifier or a bonus to damage equal to her Boltslinger level. At level 7 the action required goes to a Standard Action. At level 13 the action becomes a Move action. At level 19 the action becomes a Swift.

Boltslinger Initiative (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as the Boltslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains the following benefits. First, she gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. Furthermore, if she has the Quick Draw feat, her hands are free and unrestrained, and the crossbow is not hidden, she can draw a single crossbow as part of the initiative check.
This deed replaces Gunslinger Initiative.

Stock Bludgeon (Ex): At 3rd level, the Boltslinger can make a surprise melee attack with the stock or handle of her crossbow as a standard action. When she does, she is considered to be proficient with the firearm as a melee weapon and gains a bonus on the attack and damage rolls equal to the enhancement bonus of the firearm. The damage dealt by the Stock Bludgeon is of the bludgeoning type, and is determined by the size of the crossbow. Hand Crossbows deal 1d4 points of damage, Light Crossbows deal 1d6 points of damage, Heavy Crossbows deal 1d8 points of damage, and Repeating Crossbows deal 1d10 points of damage. Regardless of the crossbow size, the critical multiplier of this attack is 20/×2. If the attack hits, the Boltslinger can make a combat maneuver check to knock the target prone as a free action. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point.
This deed replaces Pistol-Whip.

Utility Shot (Ex): At 3rd level, if the Boltslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can perform all of the following utility shots. Each utility shot can be applied to any single attack with a crossbow, but the Boltslinger must declare the utility shot she is using before firing the shot.
Wall Shot: You can fire crossbow bolts at solid surfaces to create handholds and footholds. Each standard bolt can only support 50 lbs, so it is likely necessary to create multiple hand/foot holds at once. Your attack damage must be enough to bypass the hardness of the surface.
Scoot Unattended Object: The Boltslinger makes an attack roll against a Tiny or smaller unattended object within the first range increment of her crossbow. A Tiny unattended object has an AC of 5, a Diminutive unattended object has an AC of 7, and a Fine unattended object has an AC of 11. On a hit, the Boltslinger does not damage the object with the shot, but can move it up to 15 feet farther away from the shot’s origin. On a miss, she damages the object normally.
Grappling Catch: You can fire a grappling bolt at a falling creature or object. This attack goes against the target's Touch AC and requires the use of a grappling bolt. Alternatively, you can fire a grappling bolt to catch yourself while falling. Either way, you cannot exceed the maximum length of the rope/cord attached to the bolt.
This deed modifies Utility Shot.

Dead Shot (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the Boltslinger can take careful aim and pool all of her attack potential into a single, deadly shot. When she does this, she shoots the crossbow at a single target, but makes as many attack rolls as she can, based on her base attack bonus. She makes the attack rolls in order from highest bonus to lowest, as if she were making a full attack. If any of the attack rolls hit the target, the Boltslinger's single attack is considered to have hit. For each additional successful attack roll beyond the first, the Boltslinger increases the damage of the shot by the base damage dice of the crossbow. For instance, if a 7th-level Boltslinger firing a medium light crossbow hits with both attacks, she does 2d8 points of damage with the shot, instead of 1d8 points of damage, before adding any damage modifiers. Precision damage and extra damage from weapon special abilities (such as flaming) are added with damage modifiers and are not increased by this deed. If one or more rolls are critical threats, she confirms the critical once using her highest base attack bonus –5. For each critical threat beyond the first, she reduces this penalty by 1 (to a maximum of 0). The Boltslinger only misses on a dead shot if all the attack rolls are natural 1's. The Boltslinger must spend 1 grit point to perform this deed.
This deed modifies Dead Shot.

Expert Loading (Ex): At 7th level, as long as the Boltslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains the benefits of the Crossbow Mastery feat.
This deed modifies Expert Loading.

Startling Shot (Ex): As Startling Shot, but applies to Boltslingers and crossbows.

Targeting (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the Boltslinger can make a single firearm attack and choose part of the body to target. She gains the following effects depending on the part of the body targeted. If a creature does not have one of the listed body locations, that part cannot be targeted. This deed costs 1 grit point to perform no matter which part of the creature she targets. Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are immune to these effects.

Arms: On a hit, the target takes no damage from the hit but drops one carried item of the gunslinger’s choice, even if the item is wielded with two hands. Items held in a locked gauntlet are not dropped on a hit. Feats and abilities that improve the Disarm combat maneuver apply to the attack roll for this target.
Head: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and is also confused for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect.
Legs: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and knocked prone. Creatures that have four or more legs or that are immune to trip attacks are immune to this effect. Feats and abilities that improve the Trip combat maneuver apply to the attack roll for this target.
Torso: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and stumbles back 5'. Feats and abilities that improve the Bull Rush combat maneuver apply to the attack roll for this target.
Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and must make a DC 20 Fly check or fall 20 ft.
This deed modifies Targeting.

Quick Recalibrate (Ex): At 11th level, as an immediate action, the Boltslinger can spend 1 grit point to re-roll a single attack. She must take the second roll regardless of its result and cannot apply any other feats or abilities that allow a re-roll to this new roll.
This deed replaces Quick Clear.

Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the Boltslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains the benefits of the Point Blank Master feat.
This deed replaces Lightning Reload.

Evasive (Ex): As Evasive.

Menacing Shot (Ex): At 15th level, the Boltslinger can spend 1 grit point and a full-round action to fire bolts at a number of unique targets up to her Boltslinger level. These bolts are fired in a way that they just barely miss or veer away from a vital area. Each target is subject to the fear spell. The DC of this effect is equal to 10 + 1/2 the Boltslinger’s level + the Boltslinger’s Wisdom modifier.
This deed modifies Menacing Shot.

Slinger's Luck (Ex): As Slinger's luck.

Cheat Death (Ex): As Cheat Death.

Death’s Shot (Ex): As Death's Shot.

Stunning Shot (Ex): As Stunning Shot.

Adding a new type of ammunition:
Piton Bolts - These specialized Crossbow bolts are designed to penetrate hard surfaces and act as a standard piton. Firing this bolt at an inanimate non-magical surface allows you to ignore the first 5 points of hardness and support weight as a regular piton would. Firing this bolt at a living target requires a standard attack roll, but at a -4 penalty.

Credits and Search-Fu Disclaimer:

  • Credit for the Wall Shot deed does go to Zautos'. After some forum-searching I decided to modify that idea to what is listed above.
  • I've seen Meepo's Gunslinger archetype, but as one of my gripes with the Gunslinger is full BAB resolving against touch, I couldn't bring myself to use it.
  • Realistically and logically, I cannot modify firearms to not resolve against touch, so that option was tossed out too.

I couldn't seem to uncover an errors/errata thread for this book, so I'm posting here...

The Gorgon Belt has a typo in it.
(My PDF, the official PRD, and d20pfsrd all have this same wording)

This belt grants its wearer a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, and the ability to ignore difficult terrain while charging or making an overrun, bull rush, or trample attempt. Furthermore, once per day on command, its wearer can spew a 60-foot cone of poisonous green gas as a breath weapon. Any creature caught in the area of the gas can attempt a DC 18 saving throw to resist its effect, but if the creature fails the saving throw, it is paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. At the end of its turn, a creature petrified by this breath weapon can attempt a new save to end the paralysis effect. Treat the enhancement bonus to Strength as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.

Nothing major, 'petrified' should be 'paralyzed'.

Harliquinn Whiteshadow wrote:

Is it possible to choose an Archetype for a class but not take one of the class ability substitutions?


Just to echo the previous posters... No, you can't pick and choose abilities.

That is, unless your DM is using/allowing 3rd party materials. Super Genius Games recently came out with some guides of "Talented Fighter/Rogue/Cavalier" that would possibly meet what you are going for.


I think this is all of them so far... r

You simply add the columns from the current position.

A Magus 7 has a BAB of +5, Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +5.
Add one level of Cleric and these numbers increase by +0, +2, +0, +2, respectively.

My apologies, I missed that FAQ update on 2/22 it seems... do you have a link to that page/thread that I can reference to watch?

(That example was, btw, just a quick example that I remember seeing often...)

Nothing, short of being denied access to class abilities due to violating a code, can deny you access to an Extraordinary (Ex) ability.

But I would say that you are correct in your assessment that the Combat Training does not take up the mount's known tricks as it is given to the mount by the Cavalier's class ability. Just like the animal companion progression is given to the mount based on the class ability.

A level 1 animal companion has exactly 1 bonus trick, and 6 base tricks from having an Int of 2. It is considered to be combat trained, so that's another 6, as noted. So again, I would say you are correct in your assessment. The text does not state that this training uses up the mount's tricks, so I would interpret the gray area to mean that it doesn't use them.

You know your life got a little when it takes over a week to follow-up on your own thread... sigh...

@Diego Rossi: I don't think that clarifying things such as "Can I add 5 to the DC to bypass being an Elf?" will shatter established rules.

@Vincent Takeda: I also really like the 'rare reagents' that were added in Ultimate Campaign. My GM actually already was implementing something like that for her custom items, but still... I always prefer official rules over house/3rd party rules.

Frankly, I'm surprised that there isn't an "Ultimate Crafting" book on the product schedule by now. We all know that the mundane craft system is in need of some serious love, and answering all of the unanswered magic item questions would be fantastic. Sure, it probably would never see PFS play either way, but this kind of sourcebook would be (as far as I can tell) the first of its kind. Being that Paizo has said before that they want to release new topics in their books and not just rewrite 3.5 and prior material, I say seize the opportunity! Right? >.>

Yikes, no apparent community interest?

This thread is a polite follow-up on 'Magic Item Crafting: any unresolved questions?'. It is not a demand, or an attack.

Ultimate Campaign was identified several months ago as being the book that will clarify Magic Item crafting. I do not wish to convey that I am criticizing the content of the book, but I must express disappointment with the volume of content provided (4 pages on crafting, 2 pages on talismans). Please do not misunderstand me, those 4 pages do contain much-needed clarifications and examples, but not nearly the level of information that was needed on this subject.

I am not certain if I built an unrealistic expectation of what would be in there, or if I had a realistic expectation and that the content just didn't make it into the book due to extraneous factors. Either way, I'm hoping for some sort of communication regarding the many unanswered questions.

Sean K Reynolds did post the following two posts during the thread:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Hey, folks, just an FYI, some of these questions are more appropriate for a FAQ than the upcoming book talking about campaign economics of item crafting, but I'll make sure they're taken care of.

Much of what's being asked is outside the scope of the book, but I mentioned above that I'll note these questions for later.

I just desire to know that the pages of questions (I've been compiling posts from the original thread) are not going to disappear to the bottom of a to-do list.

SKR recently answered this one

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

It says "bonus," not "modifier," so it never drops below +0.

(I've done my best to hammer the writers into saying "bonus" when they mean "it's always going to be +0 or better," or when using "modifier" has the possibility of making no sense, such as "you can use this a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier," which would mean you could have negative uses per day. So trust whether it says "bonus" or "modifier" to mean exactly that. :))

I believe this will answer your question...

James Jacobs wrote:

Nope. Energy resistance does not stack.

As with any bonus/effect (unless otherwise stated in the description) the greatest value is the one that is counted and multiple values do not stack.

Detect Magic wrote:

Thinking of implementing the following changes around my table. Would you use these variants?

Dagger (simple light weapon; 1d4 piercing damage; 18-20/x2 crit; 10 feet range if thrown; easily concealed)

Kukri (exotic light weapon; 1d6 slashing damage; 19-20/x3 crit)

So you converted the Kukri into a light version of the Falcata... and a Dagger into a simple weapon with a rather nice crit range that every Knife Master Rogue would love to use without a second thought.

I wouldn't implement these changes.

Property Info:

This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons.

An ominous weapon trails a shadowy haze behind every stroke, and moans a menacing dirge in battle. An ominous weapon adds its enhancement bonus on Intimidate checks made by the wielder. In addition, when an ominous weapon confirms a critical hit, the target is shaken for 1 minute (DC 13 Will negates); if the weapon's critical multiplier is greater than x2, this condition lasts 1 additional minute per multiple over x2. A creature that gains the shaken condition from an ominous weapon cannot gain that condition again from the same weapon for 24 hours.

At first glance, this property seems perfect for anyone doing a crit build that also involves feats like Shatter Defenses (I have a two-weapon warrior dual-wielding scimitars who would love this). But there's a catch... By the time you can afford a +2 equivalent weapon to get this enchant, a DC13 Will save is negligible. So that got me to wondering... how was this DC calculated, and can it be increased?

Looking at the crafting requirements, either Doom (L1 spell) or Scare (L2 spell) can be used for adding the property.
Minimum Caster Stat to cast Doom is an 11 (mod 0), so the DC is at minimum 11 (10+1). OK, so that's not where the DC came from...
Minimum Caster Stat to cast Scare is a 12 (mod 1), so the DC is at minimum 13 (10+2+1). OK, now we're getting somewhere.

So if the save DC of this property is based on the caster stat mod of the enchanter plus 12 (10 + 2 for the highest level spell that can be used), then could it stand to reason that a PC who crafts this property can add it at a much higher DC.


The Hawk's Strength would increase to a 10, which will do nothing for attack rolls since it is using Weapon Finesse. However, as you noted, this will change its damage from 1d4-2 to 1d4.

You are correct again on the HP increase. The Hawk has 1 hit dice and +4 con will increase the modifier by 2, so +2 HP (or 6 HP total).

As far as the save DC's go, yes, you would increase the DC based on the new ability score (this is why the statblock lists what controls the DC).

Tack on a Rage spell for more fun.

kyrt-ryder wrote:

And now for the irony in all this.

That's exactly my point in asking what the mechanical gain truly is for this situation. Because I can't see this as being a worthwhile tradeoff.

Even using Vital Strike you're not tacking on massive damage (although if your build is for Vital Strike, every extra dice roll is important...).

kyrt-ryder wrote:

*1d8 -> 2d6 -> 3d6 -> 4d6 -> 6d6 -> 8d6 -> 12d6

1d10 -> 2d8 -> 3d8 -> 4d8 -> 6d8 -> 8d8 -> 12d8

Thank you for the input, but what source are you using to confirm that?

Bumping again.

So... if you are unable to skirt around the "hands needed" part, what is the advantage of a trait like this? To simply give you more options of what weapons you can pick up?


Mechanically, why would I want to use a Large Scimitar as a Medium creature instead of just picking up a medium Katana? The damage and crit ranges are the same, but the large Scimitar (w/o this trait) would give me a -2 on attack. The only advantage would be if I already had Weapon Focus/Specialization, Weapon Training, or any other feat(s) that apply to a named weapon.

I can't use any Large 2-handed weapon as a Medium creature, as per "handedness".

This type of adjustment can't even apply to a Crossbow since that, as a ranged weapon, isn't categorized as Light or 2-handed to begin with. (so no ballista-wielding Tiefling, but you could bust out a Large Double-Barreled Pistol...)

So that leaves exotic melee weapons (and thus requires a feat).
A Large Falcata would step up to 2d6 (from 1d8) with a 19-20/x3. Add Impact/Lead Blades and it would be 3d6. Add Enlarge Person and it becomes ?4d6?. {Ave. Dmg: 4.5->7->10.5->14)

A Large Bastard Sword would step up to 2d8 (from 1d10) with a 19-20/x2. Add Impact/Lead Blades and it would be 3d8. Add Enlarge Person and it becomes ?4d8?. (Ave. Dmg: 5.5->9->13.5->18)

So the damage definitely ramps up by going as far as possible with this, but is ~4.5 damage worth the trait? Is it worth paying extra for the weapons, adding the extra weight, being more conspicuous, etc? Flavor-wise, if it fits, it fits. I'm looking from a mechanics standpoint. Obviously if you intended on using a Bastard Sword or Falcata, this is a no-brainer, although it forces you to always 2-hand (enjoy those grapples). Otherwise...

Note that I'm not sure if Enlarge Person will work since the trait specifies "Large" weapons and not "weapons 1 size category larger than you". Also, being that there's no chart for weapon damage above huge (see this thread that I'm still trying to get responses on), I have no idea for sure what damage would be done if it did work.

The wording of this is hurting my head... so in other words my original post in this thread was correct.

Kazaan wrote:
prd wrote:
Sometimes you can't use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC. If you don't have a Dexterity bonus, your AC does not change.
From Combat third paragraph under Armour Class section (just above Other Modifiers section). If you don't have a Dex Bonus, your AC does not change. It must be a bonus in order to apply to your AC. Your argument is invalid.

You raise a very valid point... I missed that sentence before.

This section of rules needs to be updated:


Armor Class

Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It's the attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit you. Your AC is equal to the following:

10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity {modifier} + other modifiers

The bolded word should be replaced with {bonus}.

Kazaan wrote:
I've always read that terminology as being specific to a bonus because they used that specific term as opposed to modifier. For example, to calculate your AC, you add your Dex bonus. If you have negative Dex, then you would end up with a situation where your flatfooted AC is higher than your normal AC, which is a ridiculous situation.

Actually... the rules do say "modifier", not "bonus".


You apply your character's Dexterity modifier to:

Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and many ranged spell attacks like scorching ray or searing light.
Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack.
Reflex saving throws, for avoiding fireballs and other attacks that you can escape by moving quickly.
Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth checks.

The text for flat-footed references your Dexterity bonus (if any), not the modifier.


Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed.

Q.E.D., you do not gain your dexterity bonus to AC when flat-footed, but the rules do not say that you don't take your dexterity modifier (if negative) to AC when flat-footed. Therefor, you take the same negative to flat AC as you do normal AC.

I suppose that this just isn't a hot button issue... Some input would be nice though...

Had a few minutes today, so I hit the beastiary with some educated guess searching (basically just tried to guess which humanoids were large or larger).

Here's the fun progression confusion spelled out:


Exhibit A: Greataxe

Exhibit B: Spear/Longsword/Morningstar

Exhibit C: Greatclub

So I'm going through, and A/B seem to eventually progress to similar ground... that 3d6 shows up there eventually. And then we have Exhibit C, which doesn't have any d6's in it...

So now it looks like a weapon with 1d10 damage for a medium creature creates the anomaly path. Everything else seems to fall into the damage progression that leads to 3d6->4d6, but I can't find anything beyond 4d6.

This is quite a ridiculous solution, but I *think* that it might work.
Magic Jar or Dominate Monster the horse, then cast Silent Spell+Still Spell Expeditious Retreat.

A slightly less insane option would be to use the spell creation rules to research a new spell of the same text but with a target of a mount.
* This would cost 1000gp and 1 week of work
* Success would require a Knowledge+Spellcraft Check, DC20 for both
* You could make that check easier by adding in 2 research assistants (2x Aid Anothers, so +4 to your roll)
* You could make the DC lower by requiring a Focus (I'd say that a Mithril Horseshoe might qualify as a rare focus for a -5), adding research materials during the process, etc.

As long as you're not PFS, I'd think that following the spell creation rules should work fine...

Bumping for great rules clarification. :-) Hopefully a 24-hour wait was enough.

Thickfreakness wrote:

Also, being that he absolutely hates/fears... Well, big things... He kinda despises himself and the boar shape even more. So, I just don't know what to do with the poor sod anymore.

Find a wizard to get Reduce Person + Permanency on you and impose a Will save on yourself to shapeshift even when the collar is off.

Thickfreakness wrote:

What I've been looking for this whole time is something helpful, like, oh, advice on how to tone him down, or where to go from here?

I'm not sure what other advice there is that hasn't already been provided.

Rogue Eidolon wrote:
AerynTahlro wrote:
Crane Wing allows you to deflect an attack, combat maneuvers are attacks, so as long as you are aware of it happening, deflect away.
Only weapon attacks, so disarms, trips, and sunders are OK but not the others.

Well both of us are kinda right... I forgot that it required a weapon. You can Bull Rush (and do a couple other maneuvers) using a weapon, so really the end result is...

"If the maneuver is using a melee weapon then you can deflect it."

Crane Wing allows you to deflect an attack, combat maneuvers are attacks, so as long as you are aware of it happening, deflect away.

Clearly the DM isn't doing anything to limit this character, and frankly doesn't care. I haven't read anything from the OP stating that the rest of the group doesn't like this walking "I win" card, so we're really just left with a player asking how to restrict his own character.
Pardon any potential snark, I'm just a little flabbergasted by this thread.

You know how you restrict your own character? By restricting yourself. Add in your own limiting flavor:
* You weren't actually separated from your tribe, you were abandoned because your blood contains impurities that hinders your transformation.
--> Mechanically this could limit the uses per day, increase the transformation time, add Exhaustion after transforming back, limit transformation duration (1 round per HD, or something like that), give a 50% chance of Confusion after shifting (group won't be as entertained when you shift and start eating them), etc.

* Not being raised by your own kind, you are actually terrified of your abilities and using them at any time other than a life or death situation is not something you can bring yourself to do. Require a Will save (DC 10+HD) to transform.

* You've actually grown to hate your transformed side and all other lycanthropes, considering it to be an abomination (after living among non-lycanthropes for so long). As such, you outright refuse to use it. If brought within X% of your health, your body's natural survival instinct kicks in and transforms you into your more survivable form.

* Your shift is unstable and you have to make Fort saves (DC 10+1/2HD+rounds transformed) or be forcefully changed back to human form, dazing you for 1 round.

It blows me away that at no point during this did you consider using fluff to tone down your strength. Rynjin also posted a perfectly acceptable solution (petition your DM to strip your powers and have you come back as a Level 5 Shapeshifter Archetype Ranger) that somehow was completely ignored. Take his approach or a combination of mine, or a adaptation of all of them, toss in fluff (imperfect blood, etc), and you're done.

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I've done quite a bit of searching in the past 24 hours trying to find the answer to this, and I have yet to come across a definitive response. So I decided to go compare the available resources. If I missed a post, faq, or resource somehow, feel free to inform me of such.

Here are the progressions:

Natural Attack Chart:


Improved Natural Attack:


Tiny & Large Weapons Chart:

Note 1: I can only guess here since there isn't an actual table for +sizes over large.
Note 2: I didn't add weapons with less-popular damages into this progression because they tend to normalize once they increase/decrease in size...but not always. (2d4-->2d6, then can follow the next 2d6 progression; but 1d10->2d8->3d8 is its own strange progression!)
Note 3: This chart is a bit of a pain thanks to the missing "Small" column.
Note 4: I can't determine if the proper way to create a standard progression list from this chart is to go all the way across the chart (once a Small column is added), or simply alternate between two columns.


No matter which one you choose, there comes a point in the progression when it "normalizes". Here's where things get super tricky.

Improved Natural Attack doesn't follow the same progression as the actual natural attack chart even though the text states that it increases the damage step--it uses its own progression. From there each one goes a different way, making it near impossible to accurately guess what is supposed to happen with the scaling:

So manufactured weapons seem to follow the same or similar scaling to the progression in Improved Natural Attack, which I can accept but would still love to see confirmation. On top of that, knowing how the wonky progressions go (1d10, 2d8, 3d8, etc), or just having a second chart, would be fantastic.


Uh...skimming through this, it looks like you copied the Paladin word for word.

Can you clarify exactly what you changed? Also, if you're simply making a Paladin archetype, I'd suggest labeling it as such, and if the ability from the base Paladin class hasn't changed you can just indicate that {Ex: Smite Evil (Su): As Paladin's Smite Evil}.

How about the Cap of the Free Thinker?

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Feats are definitely a workable route...
Iron Will
Improved Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Improved Lightning Reflexes
Great Fortitude
Improved Great Fortitude

Additional Traits
(There are a bunch of traits that offer +1 bonuses to saves, or +2 to a particular type of effect from a save.)

If Human...
Defiant Luck
Heroic Will

There are a bunch of spells you can use too, s/a...
Heroism, Haste, Prayer, etc... You can also get around a lot of spells by having Spell Resistance.

Items you can use...
Belt of Incredible Dexterity, Belt of Mighty Constitution, Headband of Inspired Wisdom

Chris P. Bacon wrote:
How do you propose to push an opponent around with your scabbard without using your hands, exactly?

I wasn't proposing that you could. I was pointing out that the feat leaves it open to interpretation that you can.

At the very least, you should have to grip the scabbard and perform the maneuver that way, which does still allow you to change your grip back to a 2-handed weapon as a free action and attack.

Equipment Trick for Heavy Blade Scabbard has an option to bull rush with your scabbard, but there's some missing information...

Steer Opponent:

Steer Opponent (Improved Bull Rush): You can use your scabbard to move a foe into the perfect position for you to make your attack. As a swift action, use your scabbard to make a bull rush against an opponent. If you succeed, instead of pushing him back, you direct your target into the path of your next attack. You gain a +2 bonus on your next attack roll against the target, and +1 for every additional 5 feet your bull rush could have pushed your opponent if you had chosen to push him back. If you fail the bull rush attempt, you are considered flat-footed against that target until your next turn.

The feat doesn't mention anywhere that you need to be holding the scabbard or what exactly you need to be able to do with it.

With that in mind, I have to wonder if...
1. Do you need an open hand to perform the maneuver?
2. Can you perform the maneuver while the scabbard is still strapped to you or does it need to be loose?

I haven't seen any changes to either of these abilities, still wondering how to handle them.

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Well, it seems that my group's (3 different play groups, actually... one with a DM who has been around since ~2.0) understanding of Line of Effect was completely wrong.

Thank you for correcting me.

The expanded definition of Line of Effect..

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).

Summon Monster and Call Lightning are not burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spells.

Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through a wall of force in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier.

You're interpreting "spells" to mean any spell that isn't teleportation. "Spells" actually means 'any spell that requires a direct line of between you and the target' (s/a Lightning Bolt or Scorching Ray). Teleport/Dimension Door and similar effects can bypass the barrier because they allow you to either teleport past, or conjure in a line of sight. If dimensional travel was the only exception, the spell would specifically say so.

Breath Weapons are Supernatural attacks that start at the creature's mouth and extend forward, hence why they are stopped by the wall. On the other hand, Gaze, which is also a Supernatural attack, goes right through the wall. Why? Because Gaze does not require physical passage of an ability between the originating point and the destination. Breath Weapons and Gaze attacks are specifically mentioned to give examples of what Supernatural attacks will not pass the barrier.

Wall of Force / Resilient Sphere do not...
* Block Line of Sight
* Block Line of Effect for spells that do not require LoE (Summon, Flaming Sphere, Call Lightning, etc.)
* Act as a anti-magic field
* Block vision/sound (or any of the other sense for that matter)

Resilient Sphere blocks spells such as...
* Disintigrate
* Scorching Ray
* Dimensional Anchor
* Lightning Bolt
* Fireball
* etc (also includes physical attacks and environment)
(anything that requires that the spell starts at point A and travels to point B)

The Sphere will NOT prevent the following:
* Using Call Lightning (the bolts are vertical bolts that manifest above the target of the spell, not from your fingertips)
* Summoning creatures outside of the sphere
* Creatures being summoned INTO the sphere (if it's large enough for multiple creatures)
* Dominate Person (in or out)
* Flaming Spheres/Ball Lightning being summoned into or out (provided that there is open space within the sphere)

Resilient Sphere does not block line of sight and it does not act as an anti-magic field to prevent magic from coming in or leaving. It only prevents spells, attacks, environment, etc. that exists outside of the sphere from getting inside...and vice versa... don't try casting a fireball inside of a sphere (this could make life hilarious if you resilient sphere an enemy caster without them noticing...BOOM!)

Massive tidal wave coming? Resilient sphere and watch the water flow past.
You suddenly notice several Delayed Fireball beads appear next to you? Resilient Sphere around them and watch the contained explosion not hurt you or your companions.
Enemy archers lining up attacks again you? Resilient Sphere and watch the arrows bounce off in mid-air.
Get a bad feeling while inside of a trash compactor and concerned that it's about to get worse? Resilient Sphere and those walls won't be able to close.

By the way... I have yet to see anything about force attacks dampening or blocking sound.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
AerynTahlro wrote:
I only wish that this was the sourcebook mentioned for clarification on magic item crafting too...
It is. :)

I...clearly need to build a time machine to get me to April faster.

Just realized that you referenced "advice on crafting magic items" earlier... Clearly I need more ranks in Perception.

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