Aelryinth's page

Anburaid, the sell rules at 50% exist simply so that you can sell whatever you have.

There's no difference between selling a suit of salvaged full plate or selling one you just fabricated. You can still sell it.

Your 'DM controls the buyers' thus isn't a factor. Using Fabricate, you can guarantee yourself income every day that you can cast the spell.

You can't guarantee that there are going to be buyers every day for your cast spells. Fabricate is based on what YOU want to do, and spells for hire on what the DM allows. Do you see the difference?

If suddenly the DM starts restricting buyers of Fabricated gear, he's going to need a reason, or justify why you can't sell it vs selling loot gear.

And it's that conflict of interest which breaks the spell.

==Aelryinth

Actually, no, there aren't better ways to encourage people to be heroes then to give them blatant rewards for being heroic.

And the paladin is a blatant reward class for acting as heroic as possible.

--------
There is no such thing to CG as being unable to act lawful.

Keeping to your word is impossible?
Catching someone who broke the law and delivering them to justice is impossible?
adhering to local customs is impossible?

Riiiight.

CG can act however it chooses. It's the beauty of being CG. If you want to pretend to be Lawful Good, you can do it...it doesn't mean you believe it, but you can certainly act that way if it furthers your goals.

Likewise, you can act for lawful authorities if it falls within your realm of duties. Nothing like getting a reward for hunting down someone you were going to put to the sword, anyways!

Etc etc. Lawful behaviors are within the realm of chaotic possibility. Believing those are the best way is what makes LG, for CG it's just something they might do if they need to do so.

==Aelryinth

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There is a hobgoblin kingdom in the Dragon Empires, just not in the 'west'.

==Aelryinth

Sleeping around could also mean business and social conduct, which is lawful behavior, but I feel like most anything I say about that is inappropriate and probably unneeded on a public forum. It does however prove a point that morality and ethics are subjective, which is one of the larger problems with the paladin class when it tries to give exact meanings to its values and in many cases take absolutes and extremes.

Also, I think you missed the point. If a wizard lost all his powers if he stopped being pious, should he get bonus powers? If all it is fluff, then you argument is just fallacious. Fluff does not balance mechanics. It should not create absolutes that we always adhere to. Things should be options, to help make everyone happy. I don't think "The cry for holy warriors" is about hating paladins, its about liking the mechanics and wanting to have something similar, though different. Anyone can be a holy warrior, even the fighter. Not everyone can smite, have auras, and cast spells. Again, if you allow people more options, it doesn't destroy the ones you have. If you restrict them arbitrarily, or for no reason more than "us grognards think" then you just hurt other people.

You're again being perspacious.

If the wizard gained bonus powers for being LG, should he lose them if he fell?
Why, yes. He'd be just another wizard without the bonus feats, I gather.

You are being rewarded for being LG, and you are punished marginally if you deliberately fall. unswerving, unstinting, but very, very rewarding...that's the path of a paladin, and not all people can do it.

==Aelryinth

The LG paladin does not have to recognize any law that fosters evil as legitimate. That includes those that endorse slavery.

The CG paladin can lie, cheat and bluff his way around, and will fit in much more easily then the LG paladin.

The 2nd example is more spot on. But the paladin can also determine if the ruler is a despot and should be overthrown. However, they will try to minimize the fallout and insure that there is a working civil order after the overthrow, and innocents are protected if at all possible. In essence, he has a far greater role of responsibility then the CG paladin, who will overthrow the tyrant and then ride away into the horizon, onto his next liberation, leaving the LG paladin behind to return peace and order to the people.

Paladins take responsibility even if they don't want to. CG? Not so much.

===Aelryinth

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Nosferatu, we are talking about the spell because it's a game-breaker.

the suspension of disbelief that the economy of a magical world works cracks and shatters as soon as you apply Fabricate to it.

That's why the discussion is happening. Sure, if the player is never going to abuse it, you can ignore it, and the DM says it doesn't happen. Buuuuuut as soon as your level 9 wizard or sorc wants to make a little money on the side...it opens a really bad can of worms, and then the other effects of the spell start to be revealed, especially how it sidelines crafters.

as for the 50% rule and demanding to sell at 90, great, just wait around for the buyer, and don't go adventuring.

The 50% rule assumes you are selling to middlemen, who turn around and sell to final customers. If you want to BE a middleman, give up adventuring and get into being a merchant, I'm sure your party can adventure without your character. The DM will take him and make an NPC, explain how he's getting into merchant politics and making and using a lot of gold, and the rest of the party is killing monsters and being heroes.

It's all good.

==Aelryinth

Rangers had to be of Good alignment, not lawful good. They did lose their ranger powers and become just fighters if they fell.

Faithfulness, respect and loyalty are lawful, all you have to do is 'without question' and they become zealotry, unthinking obedience, and blind conformity...traits most commonly associated with Law. I don't have to think, I just have to obey, and all...tempered with Goodness, they are highly respected values. Tempered with Evil, they are the tools of Tyranny.

Lust is one of the seven deadly sins, but sleeping around isn't naked lust...it's an individual failing, unless you really start giving into it. There's a big difference from a gigolo and a rapist, and there's the whole 'free luvvin' idea that gets in there. You certainly can't say having sex is evil, now, can you?

So, I'm not equating anything you're saying with how you're twisting the example, Adjule.

as for the lawful good alignment thing, you have hit the nail right on the head. WHy indeed should you play a Lawful Good fighter/mage/rogue, having to operate under all those restrictions, when somebody else gets exactly what you have, and can poison their blades, murder your wife, sell innocents into slavery, rape, pillage and burn, and there's no mechanical advantage?

Well, being a paladin IS that mechanical advantage for not being able to do all that stuff. You are being rewarded for sticking to a moral code.

They've actually started coming out with boons and blessings and stuff that also reward other characters for staying true to alignments. In 3.5, it was the Book of Exalted Deeds that did it. Here, the EMpyrean Lords offer rewards for normal character who adhere to holy standards of conduct.

Unfortunately, they aren't in core. There is NO REWARD for most people for adhering to a code of conduct, for being honorable, for being nice.

And it's this 'lack of a reward' which makes people tempted to go Evil, because you lose all the silly restrictions of being a hero, and you can just go pure pragmatic and win the game all the more easily. I get all the Fighter stuff, and I can use poison, too. Obvious win for side Evil.

The paladin is a reward class for being LG, which actually gives mechanical benefits for being a Big Damn Hero. And that's how grognards will always see the class. A LG fighter is not a paladin, even if he's pious. The fighter doesn't lose class abilities if he falls from his path. Likewise the cleric just finds a new god, the mage is still a caster.
And the cry for 'holy warriors' of other alignments just undercuts the essence of what a Paladin is.

===Aelryinth

Aelryinth, thank you for the honest response. All that Alignment restrictions thing has always interested me for my personal history with D&D.

I arrived at D&D 2 Edition from The Lord of the Rings (red book, ICE). Then, I really liked the few tables. My first character was a bard elf for Dragonlance. She was CG, and I loved the character. Even today, half the characters I made for videogames are based on her. But halfway the campaign, reading the Player's Handbook I find, surprised, that the character was illegal; she couldn't CG, must be NG. I was shocked. The DM wanted to change the alignment to NG, but finally we agreed to continue as CG. And the character was better for that. Latter, on 3.0, the combination was suddenly legal, but the campaign has ended years before.

Every edition has less and less restrictions about character's building; 3.0 lacked the race/class limitations, and step by step the alignment ones are going away. None of the Pathfinder ones have that kind of limitations except antipaladin, a very special case. And I find that for the better. I'm pretty sure that when a new Edition of Pathfinder arrives, there will be less limitations still.

Edit: All that said, I'm a bit undecided on the Paladin. I love the four extreme options, and have been doing them for some time without problems. But I can understand the opposition for them. The others, specially Druid and Monk... kill it with fire.

The original bard concept is NOT based on the concept of the merry minstrel medieval rock star.

The original bard is a lord of lore, a traveler and neutral party linking locations, able to walk among high people and low, be heard in the courts yet comfortable on the street. The closest thing we have nowadays would be a tremendously respected traveling reporter. Such folk are famous for their impartiality, and their willingness to share the news and the truth with all parties who ask for it.

The bard has been remade into the master of magical music, dilletante, artistic showman, what I like to call glorified minstrels. The historical, deeply respected tradition behind the original class is, like it's bond to the druidic faith, now gone. The name of bard has been moved from lorelord to performer.

The current bard does very, very well as CG. Actually, the 2E bard is the core class for the harpers, who are basically CG...they are people who live out the tales they relate to others with a song on their lips and hearts. Perfectly suited to their new, 'arcane' background.

====
"Ranger" in the grognard lexicon means 'noble woodsman guarding the lands from the incursions of enemies of the goodly races." Aragon and his sort were the inspiration, right down to giant slaying, minor druidic and wizardly skills. As Ranger had a specific meaning in middle-earth, that was actually ported over and became part of the 1E game. Rangers had to be of good alignment, and were special people with the blessing of woodland entities.

The current game takes the name and just makes them 'hunters'. It's like every special ops guy out there suddenly calling themselves 'SEALS'. It doesn't fit the history or tradition behind the title. So, yeah, the modern class is a ranger wanna-be, from the grognard view. The noble purpose behind the title of ranger has been replaced by a bunch of hunters of X.

Which, incidentally, is also why grognards get so uppity about 'paladins of every alignment'. 'Paladin' is a TITLE as well as it class. It literally means 'LG too good to be true hero'. Later people tend to equate 'paladin' with just a bunch of special abilities, and the whole idea of being limited to an alignment, of being forced to play a certain way and jump through hoops just to get all those cool powers...just irks grognards. The whole idea behind the paladin IS those limitations, of having to be that kind of hero to get those abilities.

Giving the abilities away without the limitations that come with them will never settle.

---
Mr. Sin, your 'CG' example is making a continuing error. You're somehow reading into what I type that ALL CG people have to lie, cheat and steal. That is not true. But all CG CAN lie, cheat and steal for a good cause...it's explicitly permitted by their alignment. Likewise, acting nice and honorable when they want to is ALSO permitted by their alignment. They are chaotic...they have to choice, and are beholden to no code but their own sense of what is right.

And sleeping around isn't considered 'highly chaotic'. It's considered chaotic. It does not show fidelity, faithfulness, respect, discipline, or loyalty. Weakness for sex is considered one of the primary moral failings...you're giving in to lust. It's a key way paladins are tempted, as well as all other sorts of heroes.

LOVE, now, love doesn't have that problem. But sleeping around? Definitely chaotic behavior. It's a moral failing for a paladin, even if it's not for a barbarian. Lust isn't one of the seven deadly sins for no reason, you know. The whole concept of courtly love exists as an outlet for paladins so they don't give into lust.

==Aelryinth

Sleeping around is generally considered chaotic behavior. Paladins are highly encouraged not to be lusty as a result. Fidelity to relationships is a historic paladin trait, as is romantic/courtly love.

CG does not mean communist (which is actually an LN philosophy). There can be tremendous imbalance in CG, because stuff goes to those who can claim it, and a CG would fight against the very idea that the profits of his labor would go to ANYONE else, be it a neighbor or the government.

It additionally does not hurt the CG paladin to lie, cheat and steal for a good cause. These are simply generic actions that are not allowed to LG paladins. The CG paladin is also perfectly free to tell the truth when it suits him, keep his word, and give generously to charity...all Lawful behaviors, but also good, and certainly not against his code.

==Aelryinth

You can't sleep more then once a day because that would mean you could regain spells more then once a day.

And the rules don't allow you to do that.

There is nothing in the rules that gives you benefits for sleeping more then 8 hours a day. You don't need that sleep. You gain no additional benfit from it.

If you can find a rule that allows you to profit from extra sleep, I'll say otherwise, but you're trying to impose something on the game that simply isn't there and isn't allowed, because casters would abuse the heck out of it. Especially with Sustenance Rings.

You're creating something from a wish list that isn't there. Please do not assume it's core rules just because you want it to be.

==Aelryinth

I'm seeing a lot of very amusing commentary and pushback on what was a direct question from Alaryth to me.

I'm not going to respond to any of it, because it's all out of context. He wanted an opinion and answer, and I gave it to him.

Although I have to say, Mr. Sin, you REALLY were stretching on a couple of those criticisms you had.

==Aelryinth

Shortening the crafting time to one day isn't a solution. For purposes of economics,it's exactly the same as casting 1 spell a day that resolves in ten seconds.

You have to get rid of the ability to make tons of money Crafting hundreds of times faster then anyone else. The only way to do that is slow it down immensely or make the Craft not permanent.

==Aelryinth

By the way magic items are set up, a Paladin can make use of Dexterity up to 24 if he wants to.

Fighter armor training for dex is completely unneccessary to make maximum use of Dexterity. It's one of the continuing problems with the class...a class ability that is completely unneccessary is like not having the ability at all.

==Aelryinth

I should expand on this, because the fact is, I often do play in games where we end up doing ... things that are not exactly adventuring. I've done the thing where my wizard earns money using things like stone to mud to help with construction projects.

Fabricate has a great deal of utility, but I am not sure it has all the utility ever. A few things to consider:

1. Some people would rather buy something hand-made than something made by machines. I bet that applies to magic, too.
2. There are a lot of other things high-level wizards can do with their time.

There was a thread on this a while back (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2moaq?Fabricate-vs-the-sword-smith) where Diego Rossi posted an analysis I find persuasive. First off, the spell creates one item. So, one casting, one masterwork sword. Materials cost 1/3 of item price, but sale value in general is half of item price. Yes, that's sort of arbitrary, but hey, RAW. So your profit per casting is 50gp or so. But you could make a ton more than that just selling spell-casting services. An NPC would charge 450gp minimum for a casting of a 5th level spell. Even if the PCs can somehow only charge half of that, 250gp is better than the profit on a masterwork sword.

There might be cases where you could do significantly better; the obvious case might be jewelry, where the potential upside for a really skilled crafter is huge. But... At that point, why bother? You're going to have more fun going out and killing stuff and taking its money.

I don't think Fabricate is all that powerful to begin with, and in practice, it's more useful as an adventuring spell than a money-making spell. If you wanna make money, take mending and make whole and go wild. Or maybe don't; mending restores 1d4 hit points, make whole restores 1d6 per level up to 5d6 when cast on a construct, but it's not obvious that it works any better than mending on objects. But I'd expect it to as a matter of common sense. And the thing is, lots of items are valuable and hard to repair...

Seebs, I've already pointed out that casting spells for others is dependent on having others who want spells cast for you.

Fabricate is about solid, reliable production even if nobody wants to buy a spell for you. Yes, casting a Teleport nets you more. No, you aren't going to have someone asking for it every day.

Fabricate lets you make money from spell slots every day, even if nobody hires you.

I personally have Fabricate sub for one day's craft check. Poof, done. The focus is now on saving time, and not making money.
I'd probably let Heightened versions add +2 days of Crafting per Heighten.
I still wouldn't let it be masterwork.

Although I have to say, simply giving things a duration solves the problem ENTIRELY. Really, Fabricate is just a Minor Creation variant, and it's not out of place.

making it use raw materials equal to final price would make it a hugely inefficient spell to use for crafting, you'd only use it if you really, really needed something fast. Not a bad idea, just hard to fathom why making a suit of armor with Fabricate takes as much raw material as three other suits.

==Aelryinth

SPell DC is only important if you are casting debuff spells on enemies.

If you are mostly focused on buffs and summons, which the summoner is, DC is extremely unimportant.

==Aelryinth

As for monks, the whole idea with monks is that they are incredibly disciplined. They are not animalistic, nor are they free spirits. They acheived what they did by incredible pursuit of self-perfection.

Neither neutrality unwilling to go to extremes or chaos' inability to temper their own emotions goes will with that image. Monks are Lawful, disciplined extremists, so totally devoted to their own path that they refute civilization...and yet, no uncivilized society can truly evolve something with such a sophisticated philosophy.

Us grognards equate Law with discipline. Simply pursuing the path the monk does requires such discipline they will be lawful.

If you want something that can fight unarmed effectively, don't call them a monk and don't make them a monk clone. Unarmed fighters of different sorts do exist, but 'monk' has a very specific context to us.

===Aelryinth

I'd like to point out that my fighter fixes didn't make Fighters all that better in combat from a melee/dpr standpoint.

Giving them scaling feats doesn't allow them to exceed what they can already do. It allows them to do a wider variety of combat stuff...a role that is, right now, the barbarian's with their rage feats.

And levelling otu weapon training just puts them on par with other classes. A barbarian isn't penalized for picking up a new weapon...the fighter should be minimally put off if he switches from sword to bow as well.

Using fighter class features to enhance other defensive/movement based feats is what I like to use. Bravery is a great stand in for any kind of mental training. Armor training is a great stand in for mental and physical agility (int and Dex). And weapon training enhancing Str and Con feats and skills also works perfectly.

YMMV, of course.

==Aelryinth

Alignment restrictions are flavor, fluff, and playstyle mandates.

Why is the paladin LG? Because it's the attempt to force a player to play a truly classic heroic mold character, complete with all the do's and don'ts that come with it. To compensate for the fact, you're given special powers so you're really good at your job, and someone without the same restrictions doesn't walk all over you.

Why is the ranger good? Because rangers are definitely and completely based on the Aragorn of legend. 'ranger' means 'militaristic woodsman patrolling the frontier to defend against incursions of evil creatures' to people like us.

It does not mean 'hunter good at killing favored enemies.' A 'ranger' is a heroic word to us grognards. You want a hunter...a hunter can be of any alignment.

Druids being neutral is because druids are tied to nature. Nature was never defined with extremes. They, like bards (bards are descendents of the druidic traditions) were always people in between, aloof from the extremes of civilized behavior, go betweens and mediators, travellers and loremasters. When you're tied to all the elements, extremism is to be avoided. Druids, like animals, tended to be neutral...they were the clerics of the natural world.

heck, until 2E, there were no neutral nature-priests...all such were druids. You could get Neutral clerics of smithing, trade, merchants and the like, but nature-priests were druids, and their turf wasn't impinged by clerics.

Eberron blasted this wide open by making druids servants of the land, and clerics servants of gods, so it introduced conflict between them. Previously, druids were most defined by FR, where gods granted their powrs, and the gods could have both druids and clerics as servants.

As for paladins of extreme alignments...'paladin' has a core meaning enshrined in the heart of grognards. If you want holy warriors of other alignments, just don't call them paladins, and don't make them paladin clones.

A CG holy warrior should NOT get all the goodies an LG paladin does. he doesn't operate under anywhere near the restrictions an LG paladin does. He'll make up for his lesser powers with fewer constraints on his activities...he can beat the LG paladin by not playing the same game.

That's REALLY hard to mechanically define, and its why so many people hate it. Having to make role playing choices to play this awesome class, when I want to have my cake and eat it too? We tend to lump it in with people creating their own custom PrC because they didn't get what they wanted out of this one or that one.

I would also like to point out that one of the things that the originial Paladin labored under was his tithing and wealth restrictions. To wit, he had to give away 10% of all his earnings to charity (usually his church), could not have more wealth then he could carry, and was limited to ten permanent magic items!

yes, you were required to reflect your humility and modesty in your lack of copious gear! heh.

==Aelryinth

Why did you pick a Bluff bonus for him? Wouldn't the feat that allows Str to be used for Intimidate be more thematic?

Pick up the extra trait feat and get Glory of the Old if you want save bonuses. There was another dwarf racial trait that was also awesome you could get at the same time.

==Aelryinth

Yeah, I agree. Crafting is one of those things that can break collaboration very quickly. Especially when dreaded 'entitlement' kicks in.

==Aelryinth

EldonG wrote:

Nosferatu wrote:

EldonG wrote:

So, by RAW, every world should be Ebberon, then.

RAI?

Maybe not.

stuff

I see, either refuse to think it through...or be incapable.

Good answer.

Sarcasm no bueno. Let me try something different; what do you want Fabricate to do?

(Edit: sorry, I meant to ask "what is it you don't want Fabricate to do?", because Aelryinth already answered what he thought was wrong.)

trying to control Fabricate with pure economics doesn't work without getting into politics. Fabricate is about production potential. The wizard's production will match the supply. It's the people/smiths/etc below him who will suffer, unless they result to non-econmic means of competition...i.e run him out with the law/public pressure, or kill him.

The guilds could try to monopolize supply, of course, but all that does is make sure the wizard gets the people paying for his services on his side...after all, they want their armor now, not in 30 days. Trying to stand in the way of this kind of progress has doomed a lot of jobs in our current day.

if getting stuff somewhere quick wasn't important,and catering to the now, we would still be driving horse and buggies, the pony express would deliver mail coast to coast, and we'd light signal fires to communicate over long open distances. Paying customers talk.

===Aelryinth

Aelryinth wrote:

Expensive to kill, yes. Having kept your trade monopoly going, and familes fed? Priceless.

And hey, if the assassin wants to keep all your goodies, too, we can probably cut a deal.

It would not suprise me in the slightest that using Fabricate to produce goods for sale would be outlawed in any civilized kingdom if even a whiff of this kind of economic abuse was actually possible.

I mean, seriously, you can't cast a Heroes Feast or Magnificent Mansion in any major city in Eberron for cash unless the local Halfling Family Guild gets its cut, or even allows you. Trying to use Fabricate to run Cannith artificers and forgers out of buisiness? You're a dead man.

It's just what people would do. Either get the law on their side, or take law into their own hands. Someone will be happy to get rid of the wizard, by one means or another.

==Aelryinth

Be willing to try...perhaps. The wizard counter-offers...doubling the offer of the now-peasants...

You see, I've argued this sort of issue on a political BBS...for years, now...having an understanding of how things work in the real world...in the modern-day USA to back me on it. Occupy Wall Street vs Wall Street, anybody?

Our modern world doesn't have magic or the individualism that comes with it.

The trade guilds aren't peasants - that's the lowest of low unions. THe wizards will concentrate on high value goods and leave the dross to the tradesmen. But guess what? As long as you've got enough business, you make the same amount of money making 2 gp pots and pans as you do making 1500 gp armor...you just aren't assured of making that money for a solid month the way you are with the armor.

And Trade guilds aren't poor. You get a bunch of people pooling funds, and suddenly money is in motion. And if they can get their money out of the dead by selling off their magic items, more power to it.

A better analogy for Trade guilds would be: docters, lawyers, farmers, butchers, bakers, clothiers, shoemakers, auto mechanics, taxi drivers, plumbers, electricians, policeman and painters vs Wall Street.

Who do you think would come out on top of THAT? well, historically, that's exactly what it was like.

heck, most political games and books, even with magic involved, come down to the fact that money is power, and even magic will bow to it in a civilized realm, if it lines up against you...the money will simply buy magic to oppose the magic. You get on the wrong side of a trade guild, and you might have to result to bloodshed to get things done, and having a guild walk off the job means that other guilds, fearing for their own livelihoods, will also walk off the job. Everything shuts down.

That level of solidarity is historically accurate. When the rich thought they could get away with not paying, an entire city could wind up paralyzed until their demands were met.

Today? In america and the world, labor and trade guilds (except the AMA and the Bar) are not in the same place they once were, I'll agree with that.

If you think they can't still be very influential, well, I'd say you are mistaken. The right wing is rife with all sorts of conspiracies with the unions out there. And most campaigns kind of assume unions and guilds are around and not weak, in a properly medieval manner. For some reason, they do tend to overlook the medical and legal professions, who defend their own turf FEROCIOUSLY...and those are very definitely trade guilds.

==Aelryinth

MDT, when someone starts claiming they are entitled, as Vincent certainly did (three times, if I recall), I'm going to call him on it.

And I call people who think they are Entitled cheesy. Sue me. Especially when they are of the position everyone should think that way.

When he starts blaming the DM for something he thinks he is entitled to, and not point blame at himself, I'm going to call him on it. Especially when he tries to turn it around and now everyone not thinking like him is wrong.

And when you unequivocally take the other side, ignoring what THEY are throwing out (and what you are, incidentally) I'm going to call them, and you, on it.

I specifically said several times I didn't have problems with Crafting within reason. I had problems with people abusing the system. I laid out examples of how it was abused, it was a target for abuse.

Heck, my initial post here was that the attempt to manipulate the rules was not going to work, but the full force Crafters came roaring in to unload and defend that it would, despite the fact it was rules manipulation, it was CALLED THAT by the OP, which makes it pure cheese.

BUt the superCrafters kept insisting it was absolutely going to work.

And no, it's not. And the vitriol began to fly AT ME, and you are continuing their work.

Blaming me for something I certainly didn't start isn't going to win you any points.

==Aelryinth

MDT, You're talking about napping.

The rules specifically say what you need to do to get the benefits of 8 hours of sleep...you need to sleep/rest for 8 hours.

Nowhere does it say that you can sleep for extra time to get extra benefits. You are making that up. You'll just be sitting around, not sleeping.

Nor does the Ring say you can sleep extra time to get the benefits of more then 8 hours of extra sleep. It's nowhere in the description, and catching up on sleep is not what the rules allow. Find it. People have tried that tactic before. It's why you can't use the Ring to memorize spells twice...you can't get the benefits of 8 hours of sleep twice in one day, because you don't need to sleep 8 hours twice in one day. You just won't sleep.

Your 'shrimping' example would NEVER let a wizard recover for spells, at least without a Ring. He'd never get the 8 hours of sleep he needs. By the way, that trick for catching sleep is used all the time in the military. Guys who can fall asleep 'on command' are highly envied.

Furthermore, you're sleeping on and off because you need to sleep on and off. WIth the Ring, you wouldn't need to sleep, so you'd just sit there and do nothing, healing non-lethal fatigue damage as long as you aren't exhausted. But you'd never get the 8 hours of clear sleep neccessary to regain spells while shrimping.

=================
Proxi, the benefits of the Ring are quite clear.

You only need two hours of sleep a night, meaning the time required for you to be vulnerable is minimized. That and getting spell slots back in 2 hours is 90% of the reason it is used.
You don't need food and water, so you don't have to carry such things. that's the other 10%. No scrambling for supplies for you!

and that's it. that's all it does.

The ring doesn't help you with Fatigue. It doesn't help you with exhaustion. You can't work any harder or longer with the Ring then anyone else...you still get tired just as fast as they do. It certainly doesn't let you get the benefits of sleeping more then once a day, since you don't need to sleep.

People are reading into what the Ring allows. But not having to sleep for six hours is not the same as being able to work for six hours. The ring does not make you a construct (warforged are famous for being immune to exhaustion/fatigue and the like). People are assuming that the RIng allows them to labor away willy-nilly for those six hours, completely ignoring the fact that there is nothing in the ring that lets them do so without penalty.

Work days are cumulative, even with the ring.

And hey, I love Rings of Sustenance, but the fatigue rules are in there for a reason, and the Ring does nothing about them.

==Aelryinth

Expensive to kill, yes. Having kept your trade monopoly going, and familes fed? Priceless.

And hey, if the assassin wants to keep all your goodies, too, we can probably cut a deal.

It would not suprise me in the slightest that using Fabricate to produce goods for sale would be outlawed in any civilized kingdom if even a whiff of this kind of economic abuse was actually possible.

I mean, seriously, you can't cast a Heroes Feast or Magnificent Mansion in any major city in Eberron for cash unless the local Halfling Family Guild gets its cut, or even allows you. Trying to use Fabricate to run Cannith artificers and forgers out of buisiness? You're a dead man.

It's just what people would do. Either get the law on their side, or take law into their own hands. Someone will be happy to get rid of the wizard, by one means or another.

==Aelryinth

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The ability to do days and days of highly skilled labor in an instant and turn it into pure monetary gain is what is broken with Fabricate. There is no cost to the spell other then raw material.

Are the crafting rules borked too? Yeah. But Fabricate is definitely not guilt-free here.

==Aelryinth

graystone wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

ANd hey, the rules say you can always find someone to buy at 50%. If someone wnats to buy from you at 100%, gravy!

==Aelryinth

So... How much did you spend to get 50% again? Somehow that's seeming less and less like tons of profit and game wrecking economics.

If I'm selling at 50%, I've undercut every artisan in town...by 50%. That's instant bankruptcy for them, as they have the same materials cost as I do. I produce it instantly...let's be more honest...I CAN sell at 100%, if they can...and if I undercut them, even a little...their whole staff suffers...

Actually, the artisans produce at the same cost and time you do...they simply do it a lot slower.

In the real world, you'd put them out of business simply because you can make things 30x faster then they can. They'd be forced into lower end business, and all pricey armor production would get taken over by wizards.

And sure, they wouldn't want you to do that. That's why they would probably take up a collection and have you murdered. That's how it was handled back in the old days. It was a bad idea to get on the wrong side of trade guilds.

==Aelryinth

Aelryinth wrote:

ANd hey, the rules say you can always find someone to buy at 50%. If someone wnats to buy from you at 100%, gravy!

==Aelryinth

So... How much did you spend to get 50% again? Somehow that's seeming less and less like tons of profit and game wrecking economics.

The general rule is spend 1/3, make 1/2.

So, your challenge is to find something valuable to make in an instant.

Full Plate is 1500 gp. Raw materials 500, sell at discounter for 750.

250 gp/spell. that's 7500 gp/month for 1 Fabricate a day, and 91,000 gp/year of clear profit for spending 1 level 5 spell.

Which is more then the WBL allowed to a PC, let alone an NPC.

Yeah, you could make more money per spell hiring out a teleport, but teleports mean you have to scare up business. Fabricate just means you have to sell to Sigurd's Armor Emporium down the road, who takes bulk orders from distant warlords for all these sets of uncannily matching armor.

===Aelryinth

Why is it, if magic is so much better at producing everything, that no wizards (LN...maybe LE and/or TN) have ever come together to create the monopoly to rule the economy? I refuse to accept 'they're selfless'...or 'they don't understand these things'...or 'wizards don't want gold'...

If you can't figure out that they simply hire people to handle the day-to-day, don't bother answering, as you obviously have no concept of how a monopolist works...or an economy...

I have a Master's Degree in Economics. I understand very, very well how Economics works.

The reason is willing suspension of disbelief. The problem is that anyone who does basic math can see what Fabricate can do, and that suspension is going to crumble to bits as they bring up exactly the points that you do.

It's very simple, why wouldn't wizards use Fabricate to do exactly what you are describing, and what we are doing?

1) Because Fabricate really doesn't work the way the spell describes.
2) Other wizards are complete idiots and never figured out how to make money outperforming craftsmen at their shticks.
3) Because the DM says so.
4) Because there is a hideous penalty levied on wizards who abuse the economy with Fabricate, only it's not in the spell description. Could range from chain assassination attempts from trade guilds to a divine hammer the size of a city block coming down on you from the God of Smiths. Who knows?
5) Because the player said he won't do that, and so all other wizards don't do that, and so it's unimportant.

Note that option 1 means changing the spell, and the rest mean losing the artificial sense of reality the game is meant to engender.

==Aelryinth

ANd hey, the rules say you can always find someone to buy at 50%. If someone wnats to buy from you at 100%, gravy!

==Aelryinth

That's a big needle, Franko. Whose it for?

==Aelryinth

You can't get rid of fatigue without a full night's rest. ANd you can't get a full night's rest twice in one day, mDT. The Ring does not allow you to sleep twice in one day and get all the benefits of it, just like sleeping for 16 hours isn't going to help you.

You're also willfully misinterpreting my arguments against crafting. If people can control and come to a consensus on Crafting, hey, go for it. Most people on these forums are fairly reasonable and wouldn't seek to overdo things.

But someone coming on and saying he is ENTITLED to do whatever he wants with crafting, and he will fight tooth and nail to get it, the rest of the party be damned? (his own specific example being that he'd continue crafting if the rest of the party was in a fight?).

Sorry, man, but that ENTITLEMENT rubs me all the wrong way, especially when he's shouting it out to the world that it's the way everyone should be able to play, and the GM is all at fault if they can't do it and it's be badwrongfun and you should just pick up and go if he won't let you craft, and for 1000 gp a day, regardless, too.

That's the attitude that sets me off. People who restrict themselves from abusing Crafting, who realize how imbalancing it can be, why would I have a problem with them? You're reading waay to much into my position, and I think it's because you're defensive about the topic.

As for crafting on the road, I've already said and I'll repeat it AGAIN that there are rules for crafting on the road, and people should make use of them. Generally speaking, you get half a normal day's time to work, and you get 50% of that time in production (i.e. 4 hours work, 2 hours actual production). The absolute most I see Sustenance adding to that is 4 hours, and that will still be at 50%, and I consider it very unlikely because you're going to have to roll 8 fatigue checks to get it done, and likely end up an exhausted puddle on the ground.

But people who feel they are ENTITLED to maximum crafting and take efforts to get around those rules? SOrry, I've got no support and will happily take a position against their interpretations of the rules every time.

As for vitriol, I get what I'm given, and Vincent was being incredibly patronizing. I will take up positions against people, but until they go putting words in my mouth, or get abusive, I'm generally pretty cordial about things.

When people start saying I'm all against Crafting and DM's who are are badwrongfun, that's vitriol. Strangely, they never see it on their end starting the whole exchange.

==Aelryinth

They ain't merchants! They are manufacturers! Get specific!

==Aelryinth

Nosferatu, I'm afraid that I don't see anything in your darkwood buckler example to back Fabricate being able to make masterwork?

Quality level can refer to using silk instead of hemp instead of vines for a rope. Or using bronze, brass, or raw iron instead of steel for armor.
There is no such thing as a masterwork raw material. There are only items that must be made masterwork, if they are made out of certain substances.

Holy water is a magical non-magical substance. Many alchemical items are magical non-magical substances. Why is Darkwood different from them? Technically speaking, something crafted with the Ironwood spell is a magical non-magical substance.

I honestly don't see any proof whatsoever that suddenly 'a' Crafting check has morphed into 'a Crafting check and a Masterwork check as desired' in Fabricate. If the spell doesn't give it to you, you literally don't get it.
There's no Masterwork Transformation-style language in the spell, either.

All I see with the Darkwood buckler is that it must also be made masterwork. Great! Fabricate can't make one of those, either.

==Aelryinth

No, Kevin Sorbo doesn't. :) I'd say a paladin requires that sense...that doesn't mean other classes can't have it.

Since he doesn't have it, not a paladin! ;)

=+Aelryinth

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Oh, here's a simpler idea on skills for a rogue, and it's easier to track.

A Rogue gains a +1 competence bonus to 1 skill for every +SA dice they have.
Thus, if they have 5d6 SA, they have a +5 Competence bonus to 5 skills of their choice. 10 d6, +10 to 10 different skills!

This gives them a good scaling bonus that eventually minimizes the need for skill boosting potions and stuff. What other characters have to buff to do, the rogue gets simply because they are that damn awesome, yet it doesn't exceed the power of what magic can do.

I think I like that better then extra skill feats.

==Aelryinth

2 people marked this as a favorite.

First thing to remember in class redesign is: don't give good stuff away with a dip.

So if you're going to give broad, hefty ability with skills away, you need to wait until level 4 at the least.

The second thing you have to figure is, what are you going to reward a rogue for? High INt or high Dex? Those are two very different builds for any kind of rogue. Historically, dex is the main stat for a rogue, and then people differ on builds for Cha or Int. People who go wisdom usually like a ranger vibe more.

Furthermore, any class without magical ability should include some form of profound anti-magical ability. I think it's utterly crazy that the fighter and rogue are the two classes most vulnerable to magic, because they've got one good save each and no general anti-magic capabilities in ANY fashion.

=======
For fighters, it's all about feats first, defenses second, and versatility third.

Feats are the class abiltiies of the fighter. name ONE feat that is the equal of Extra Rage Power.
You can't. There isn't one. Rage powers are powerful, auto-scale, and have profound effects on the user. They are awesome.

Feats for fighters have to ALL be the equal of class abilities, or they are useless. They only way you can do that is to rip down feat chains, and give them to fighters who have the starter feats. It should be ONE feat for a fighter to take the whole weapon spec tree. It should be ONE feat to take the whole step up and strike shtick. It should be ONE feat to take the Shatter defenses line of feats.
Because that's what fighters are...the masters of feats.

Weapon Training should simply add groups, not add groups at -1. They are the only class that is inferior with other then their primary weapon.

Fighters should have more defenses against magic, and the core of that is the saving throw. There is a built in scaling mechanism for the fighter for bonuses to feats in their weapon training, armor training, and bravery. If Iron Will auto-scaled with Bravery, fighters can take a feat and get a good Will save. If Lightning Reflexes scaled with Armor training, they'd get a good Reflex save. and if Great Fort scaled with weapon training, they'd have an awesome Fort save.

Several Rage powers should exist as feats. I still can't believe they gave Robilar's Gambit to the Barbarian...

Versatility. Give them 4 skill points to reflect the fact that anyone who doesn't learn magic is going to rely on other forms of training. As masters of build flexibility, let them pick two class skills for their own list at level 1.
I would, in addition, give them an additional feat every level they did not get a combat feat, and the pool to select it from would be limited to feats that affect saves and skills. You don't need an awesome wis stat for Perception if you have Skill Focus and Alertness in it from bonus feats.

And, you know, it would be REALLY REALLY nice if Fighters were the only class that could swap feats around from a pool of their own choice. Perhaps every combat feat is TWO feats, but only one can be active at a time?

===========
For Monks, the chassis is okay, the combat rules aren't in favor.
The Monk isn't meant to be a tank, it's meant to be a highly effective skirmisher.
I like the idea above of letting the monk advance an extra 5' for every 10' of his speed bonus when full attacking. It doesn't give them power, but it gives them range that no other class would have. It's a great idea.
To combat MAD, I would call on the Monk's theme of self-perfection and give them stat bonuses...more stat bonuses then any other class. Every four levels in the monk class, give them an extra 4 stat points that all go into their LOWEST STATS. It's not a huge buff, but it insures that there will never be a monk with a dump stat, and that they will have excellent general stats when they level. At higher levels, no monk should have less then a 13-14 base stat in any ability score.
For the amulet of Mighty Fists, the cost is the same pain that TWF have always had to put up with. Because in the end they get the highest base damage weapons in the game, and the most attacks, it's balanced against that paradigm. If you want to get rid of the TWF aspect of being a monk, then yes, down tone the amulet. It does suck at lower levels, I agree...but so does TWF anywhere.

===================
For Rogues, two things.
1) Take away sneak attack from any other class. It's a Rogue thing, keep it a rogue thing. Ditto trap spotter. Indiana Jones was a rogue, not an archeologist bard.
2) You really have to make them the master of skills. The ability of the bard to layer skills into his Performance skill is just wrong.

A Rogue should be an Expert+.
Talents should be full class abilities, not feat alternates, i.e. half-strength class abilities. So Talents need to be overhauled.

Skills: All skills are class skills for a rogue. That's right, let them pick anything. After all Experts get to pick their own list, and Rogues are Experts on roids.
A Rogue Talent may choose to use Str or Dex, or Int or Cha, for any particular skill that requires the other stat. You could build a completely viable Cha or Int rogue that way, and it subsumes all them silly feats that let you use this stat for that skill, which are hugely underpowered.
A Talent that would let them treat any skill as trained should be later level, but an excellent skill. Just being able to take 10 on any Knowledge check and assist anyone at anything should be useful.

Rogues should be able to expand evasion to any and all of their magic saves, if they choose to keep on the no-magic route. Magic just all slide off them, not just the fireballs.

To keep the Dex focus, a Talent that lets them deal dex to damage while using a finesse weapon if they are NOT dealing sneak attack damage would insure they did decent damage at all times. In effect, it would be 'stepped down' sneak attack damage. A simpler method might simply be to co-opt the duelist and let them deal +int damage when using a finesse weapon, instead, or simply minimum SA damage (i.e. deal +5 or +5d6 damage, the latter if they qualify for SA). Stacking extra damage on top of SA seems to not be neccessary...its when they are not SA'ing that we have to work on their relevance.

And giving them a skill or skill focused based feat every level they don't gain an SA bonus would keep them ahead of every class as far as breadth and depth of skill points. It would match the fighter fix some, but the rogue has so many more skills, and Talents to supplement skill choices, that this isn't out of line.
===

As a kicker to all this, one other thing...level one profs and stuff should never, ever be given away. So someone picking up a level of fighter shouldn't gain all martial profs after level 1, etc. You need to value gifts at level 1 to make them have teeth. The same way you don't give out maximum hit points at level 2, you shouldn't give away armor and weapon profs.

==Aelryinth

I'd probably make him a NG barbarian or LG fighter, he just doesn't have that sense of greater purpose that paladins keep about them.

==Aelryinth

and it's not all me. I have seen tons of power gamers and optimizers in multiple locations point right at the crafting rules as one of the most broken things in 3.5, and PF doesn't make them better.

Unless you voluntarily restrict yourself from using the rules to their full potential, Crafting gets out of hand really, really fast.

MDT, I'm not sure at all what you're arguing about with the travel rules. The only time sensitive stuff I pointed out was when people pointed out they were crafting and travelling at the same time, and that travelling more then 8 hours (and by extension, working more then 8 hours) starts costing you fort saves against fatigue.

But Vincent posted above that his favorite things about 3.5 and PF is Crafting and summoners. One is the thing that powergamers says most rapidly upsets a campaign, and is the single hardest thing on a DM. The other is the class that people even on these forums agree is overpowered, and, more pointedly, sucks time and attention away from the rest of the party the worst. It is a fun class to PLAY...because you get to do so much stuff. It's a total pain to play with, and to play against.

That's not exactly the kind of play style I like to encourage, you know?

==Aelryinth

A Fabricate spell also creates only one item, so you couldn't create multiple sculptures.

But the idea is to make valuable items out of standard goods. I admit I'm kind of wondering how full plate has 300 gp more of raw materials then plate mail, but still...

So, yes, Fabricate is broken on its face, but at least you can't make masterwork with it.

===Aelryinth

opinions are shaped by campaigns and campaign circumstances.

Rogues look great in urban campaigns against humanoid foes. Ditto monks.

start operating outside those paradigms and things start showing themselves mechanically.

DM's also cover their bases with fudged rolls, poor tactics adn the like to cover for their players.

Mechanics are hard and unforgiving. While randomness can make stuff shine or suck on individual occasions, over time there is no way to fool the odds.

And that's why you get such broad consensus on what classes are great and which are not.

==Aelryinth

Enjoy your game.

Stamping entitled on to my post doesnt make me wrong any more than it makes you right. It is a meaningless word with meaningless clout. Everyone is 'entitled' to play the game their own way. And that everyone includes the rest of us.

And once again the publisher themselves said its not supposed to be fair.

Stamping 'entitled' on your post, and you not merely not denying it, but actively EMBRACING it, shows what kind of player that you are.

Wrong and right can extend from there.

And now you've changed your word.

Actually, the publisher said it was not 'balanced'. He said nothing about FAIR.

Keep it up, you and your patronizing are not looking any better.

===Aaelryinth

I know walking for 8 hours would probably wreck you as a person, who probably sits in a chair all day and drives a car to work, but adventurers are made of sterner stuff there champ. I don't want to make this personal, but if stitching a cloak together after 8 hours of walking would make you tired, then its true you'd make a bad adventurer, but even my wizards are half as frail as you seem to think every adventurer should be.

LOL.

Keep up with the bad analogies. I'll go ask some military guys who've been on patrol.

Hey there, Champs, You've been out on eight hour patrols in heavy gear and stuff. did you come back and, you know, feel like starting up a forge and slamming steel, or do some serious metalworking, or studying for your next rank exam after all that?

I think the pretty uniform answer I'll get is "*)&*)(& No." All they are going to want to do is unwind.

You're talking like adventurers are immune to fatigue checks. that's HILARIOUS.

==Aelryinth

Well you just keep doing what you do there hondo. I certainly don't care what you have to tell yourself in order to run things the way you do for your people... Why you insist you should hold sway over the playstyle of everyone else here is beyond me though. Again sorry to burst your bubble, but you have no power here.

And you have even less justification for yours. Right back at you, Vincent.

I'm not the one saying control of a person's downtime. That's all you. You're the one saying you're ENTITLED to do something in your downtime that none of the other players is.

You can't even make the simple connection between a benefit allowed one person and denied another, and see the inherent unfairness.

==Aelryinth

Are saying master cloak-makers dont' get tired and bleary-eyed? That their concentration doesn't waver? That they won't mess up a cut, a stitch, a line, and have to start all over?

Mental fatigue is every bit as enervating as physical fatigue...the body actually cannot distinguish between them. Something requiring incredible precision and focus can wear you out as surely as toting around lumber and slamming a hammer on nails. More, really, because you work on a crew a long time, and you get strong and tough. The brain is not a muscle.

Ask a docter or lawyer if they aren't tired at the end of a day. Purely mental professions. Ignoring the reality of Crafting is not making you look better.

==Aelryinth

And 'creating a +8 scrying wizard with nothing better to do with his downtime than track me across the earth to ruin my crafting is a classic use of power-gm overreach.

I have to wonder where that comes from.

Thieves target people with money. Crafters are people with lots of valuable items. You are the PREFERRED TARGET. Your wealth is small, portable, valuable to a wide variety of people. Of COURSE there are people whose entire occuptation is to relieve you of your wealth, just as you relieve bandits and monsters of theirs, and them taking their time to work out how to take you out is great time value of money trade.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you can beat him up and take his fish, and come back tomorrow and take his fish again.

NOT Believing that is classic player entitlement that they live in a perfectly secure bubble, and the world revolves around them and only them. It's the words of someone who believes they control the campaign.

==Aelryinth

Aelryinth wrote:

'unwinding after a rough day.'

Crafting is WORK. it is as strenuous as travelling. It's not effortless translation of gold into goodies. WHen you craft, you're working as hard or harder then when you were travelling.

hence, fatigue rules.

==Aelryinth

Matter of opinion to support your conclusion. Not the way everyone thinks.

You're trying to tell me crafting isn't work? I think every craftsman ever would have to disagree with you.

Why don't you go walking for eight hours, then jump on a construction crew for eight hours to 'wind down'. I'm sure it'll be nice and relaxing.

Or maybe engage in the incredible focus and precision neccessary in high-grade jewelmaking, calligraphy, painting, or (gasp) making of magical items. Yeah, being freaking tired after travelling all day isn't going to have ANY effect on you.

Every hour after eight hours of walking, if you continue to merely walk, you make a Fort save or become fatigued. that check goes up by +2 per hour.

Now you're trying to argue that crafting is RELAXING to defend your playstyle. Classic powergaming defensiveness. I have to admit I actually rolled my eyes when I saw that.

===Aelryinth

and btw, Vincent, playing the 'control of downtime' card is classic power-gaming.

You're free to do whatever you want with your downtime. But ONLY when Crafting magic items can you double your money, and improve your gear and combat effectiveness.

That's why power gamers cling so hard to Crafting. It's the ONLY way they can make downtime truly affect uptime.

All other downtime stuff is roleplaying. Crafting, however, is rollplaying and powergaming, pure time multiplication.

You also denigrate the DM's ability to control his players. Crafting is inherently uncontrollable...the player can craft whatever he can afford, as soon as he can afford it. No rolling to see if the item is available, no waiting on a commission, no counting out how many more gp is needed.

It's not the GM losing control, it's the player throwing off any control.

No other player is going to have a problem with what they do in downtime.

You would see the exact same kind of abuse if, for instance, only rogues and fighters were able to train in their downtimes. Let's say fighters could train to gain feats, and rogues could train to gain skill points. They could spend the gold, and next rogue or fighter level, bing, new feats! new skill points! Something nobody else could get, and they just converted gold into upgrades!

And then if we let monks train for STATS, weee.

The uproar that every class should be allowed to 'train' would be instantaneous. but you'd surely see every fighter, rogue and monk doing anything and everything they could to get their hours of training in each and every day...just like a crafter.

Yet the crafter gets all the benefits of 'training', converting gold into stats, and screams and waves their hands anytime anyone tries to be fair about the whole process.

Meh.

==Aelryinth

'unwinding after a rough day.'

Crafting is WORK. it is as strenuous as travelling. It's not effortless translation of gold into goodies. WHen you craft, you're working as hard or harder then when you were travelling.

hence, fatigue rules.

==Aelryinth