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Varisian Wanderer

Aelryinth's page

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16. RPG Superstar 2013 Star Voter, 2014 Star Voter. 7,326 posts (7,389 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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A lawful person believes in rules, structures and authorities that extend beyond himself.

A Chaotic person believes in rules set only by those he believes personally in, that he sets himself, and authority is the reach of your arm, no more.

YOu believe in authority and laws, but you may not believe in specific laws or specific authorities (like, say, an illegitimate ruler, or laws allowing slavery). You do not have to have a personal investment in an authority or legal body to regard it as valid. Even if it goes against your personal desires, you might still regard a law or authority figure as correct and defer your judgement to them.

A chaotic person always decides these things incident by incident, person by person. They may not respect the law, but they may respect an honest cop who enforces it fairly, and try not to cause him a hassle. They may respect family as an authority figure, and stop absolutely right there, but it will still be based on personal respect and blood ties, not simply "Obey Dad."

But being lawful does not mean you unwaveringly do what the local law or authority says. Your personal code can easily override lesser strictures, and this is why multiple LN countries can very, very easily go to war with one another.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Aye, the Mythic version is basically "Spend one Mythic to heal yourself of 50 hit points of damage"

Contrast with Mythic Spellcasting: Spend one mythic to cast any spell you could normally cast. Like, oh, HEAL. Granted, the guardian ability is available at a low level, but it rapidly falls behind in usefulness. Having to blow more mythic power on it so it scales is just blatantly unfair.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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gamer-printer wrote:
For 3PP, the Yabusame (samurai archetype) from Rite Publishing because I helped design it. And because I needed an archer specialist who didn't just lob endless arrow volleys, but rather fired less shots that were far more accurate and damaging - more like the concept of sniper. Most of the yabusame's special archery attacks involve a single shot at its target at great distance and not seeming like a fantasy machine gunner as seems to be other archer schticks...

Huh.

Okay. He gets a typeless smite as often as the Paladin. With arrows, no less.

In ONE level, he gets Dex to damage, AND the whole Vital Strike chain for free.

He can slaughter basically any foe from range and is considered the epitome of honor if his foe can't strike back.

And this is a samurai/cavaliar archetype?

I am not impressed, and would never allow the archetype as it stands.

Vital Strike should be open to all melees, or at least all fighters. I'd never give it out to one archetype flat like this.

I would be hugely leery of Dex to damage for archers as a massive damage punch that they simply do not need.

The archetype should have issued a standard challenge to a foe. The bonus should have been to negate cover/concealment of his foe, and a bonus against the ranged return attacks of his enemy. Archers do not need a damage bonus. The bonus should have gone up at the normal cavalier rate, too.

:( Sorry, man, that archetype is just WAY overpowered.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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agreed. It doesn't make individual encounters harder or easier. it just enables you to go through more of them before you have to stop. Sometimes to an almost ridiculous extent, depending on the enemy.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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A party with fast healing starts really placing emphasis on high hit points and getting immunities to other conditions. This is so they don't have to worry about in combat healing...they have so many hit points they WANT the fight to be about hit points.

Hit points come back out of combat for nothing. totally a win situation. 1hp of fast healing/rd = 15,000 hp/day, which is the equal of 55 CLW wands. A party with fast healing starts tilting their gameplay style towards hit points and gogogo.

This is very friendly to classes with few daily resources, like fighters and rogues, whose only resource to manage is hit points. They are never telling the party 'time to rest' because they are out of hit points.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Barb damage: For realistic purposes, Pounce and Come and Get me are unclimbable walls to the average fighter, and can massively increase damage output. Put in Reckless Abandon on top of it, well...

So a Barb will outdamage a fighter in melee combat.
The fighter will hold the edge in archery...but that's about it.
Now, the fighter somehow has to overcome the barbarian's superiority in speed, uncanny dodge, DR, saves, hit points, and if desired, AC on top of this.

For Rangers, keep in mind that the iconic feat, Shield Master, Rangers not only get six levels earlier, but don't have to waste pre-req feats to get. That's the huge thing about rangers...they don't have to take dump feats to get the good feats, and Fighters do.

For Paladins...come on. No fighter has the staying power of a paladin. Lay on hands means bundles and bundles more hit points for a paladin. Better saves and outright immunities on top of it. Spells and Weapon Bond can easily equal the damage gap with fighters even against neutral foes (since the enhancement bonus of the sword bond stacks with the enhancement on the weapon, the Paladin's +2 sword becomes +4 as the fighter is laying about with +1 weapon Mastery and weapon spec).

The paladin will outlast the fighter because he can heal himself and endure the damage coming his way.
Noteworthy, Smite is the shield-friendliest ability around. The damage boost is so high for it that using it with a shield is still a good idea, especially if you can shield bash in addition. Smite also works with TWF and archery. A paladin archer smiting outdamages any other archer on the field.

These are proven facts. It's why people rage on the fighter. I want a fighter that is the dominant physical combatant that he was in 1e. except maybe against giant-class humanoids, heh! He does not exist in the post 3E world or in PF.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The 'game changing' effect of fast healing is 'go go go.' Since you don't run out of healing, you can just keep going.

It doesn't 'radicalize' things. It doesn't change the game into rocket tag, or make the PC's suddenly capable of stomping all over enemies.
It means they can just Keep Going.

If you're able to gain some key defenses and immunities, such as against charms, save or dies, Freedom of Movement, and the like, you literally never need truly fear hit point damage.

Your melees are thus capable of solving more problems because they don't have to worry about injuries so much, and are always at full strength.

Conversely, with the melees shouldering even more of the load, the power of spellcasters can be stretched out a very long time. Casters that can melee along with the melee classes can extend this time out even further.

So, yes, it will change the game, because you can just keep going. The change may take the GM by surprise, and even the PC's might be startled at the shift in ability.

I cite 3.5 Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor, which granted the whole party fast healing 1 for 24 hours, and completely shifted party dynamics as nobody needed to heal, and altered the playstyle as a result.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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His point is the fighter still does not have the ability to add enhancements to his weapon, ridiculous or even good saves, still has to meet prereqs on his feats, doesn't automatically get an animal companion, can't heal himself or remove status effects, doesn't have a lot of skill points or skill, and no immunities.

After you take away his ability to disarm. A really MINOR ability. Take away smite and FE, MAJOR abilities, and the paladin and ranger still aren't looking all that horrible.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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and losing HP at negative HP. Technically, you go right to 0 and then you're up the next round from a negative total.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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IT has the following effects, depending on how it is applied:

1) if One person has it, it means you don't have to spend any after-combat healing on them. This means if they are a melee person, they have no downtime or being in danger to heal. For fighters and rogues, it effectively means they can fight forever because they never run out of resources.
Your adventuring day will last longer because healing resources will go further, and you won't need to worry about your primary melee running out of health.

2) if multiple people have it, assuming they are melees, it truly frees up a lot of casting slots since healing magic will only be used sparingly.
The adventuring day lasts longer because your purchased healing goes much further, and fewer slots are used on healing.

3) if the whole party has it, you only have to heal in combat in desperate circumstances. No money will be spent on downtime perishables. Also, the constant healing means the party will 'always' recover to full between fights.
Your adventuring day thus becomes how many spell slots are used up on the casters, and those slots last much longer. Wars of attrition are much harder to do since a lot of melee is an option even if you are low on spells, as your wounds will all be healed regardless.

From a realistic standpoint: Its a bigger deal the lower your level is. At higher levels, having to dish out a 200 HP heal to keep a tank alive is not uncommon. Out of combat healing is incidental spare change.

At low levels, not having to spend ANY money on out of combat healing, and healing to full within a few minutes, is a massive advantage, meaning your primary melee's health is never a reason to call it the end of the adventuring, and he's always starting every fight at full health.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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eeesh, wow. So, no weapon training at all, either.

The highly developed art of wrestling is obviously beyond the training skills of a devoted fighter.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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miss chance becomes less and less effective as you level, due to the prevalence of creatures with blindsight, tremorsense and true seeing.

A high AC is never a bad thing. Especially for a melee toon.

Good saves are, however, very important, but shouldn't be a problem for a barb.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Hrm.

Mithral BP+5, AC 21.
Dex +5, AC 26.
Nat Armor +5, AC 31
Deflection=5, AC 36.
Jingasa, Luck +1 = 37
Ioun Stone, +1 Insight, = 38.

Rage powers for Nat AC, Dodge??
Why are you having problems hitting a 30 AC again? Just because you didn't buy the typical defenses?

==Aelrynth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Tactical choice for casters should be made by type of spell.

Spells should have different casting times. Making them swift, move, standard, full attack, full round and multi-round+ casting times would be a tactical choice.

For instance...iron rule, all summoning spells are full round, no getting them out faster. Summoning is a monstrously useful, powerful spell set...but by making it full round only, you really have to be careful with using it in a fight.

Evocations, on the other hand, might all go off as standard actions, with a subset of them as quickened.

Other 'combat spells' might only be full attack, greatly lessening the mages maneuverability.

Basically, there should be such a thing as 'combat magic'. Spells that have utility uses, great flexibility, or somesuch should NOT be Standard Actions.

Indeed, if evocations and a few abjurations like Dispel Magic were the ONLY spells that you could get off with a swift or Standard action, barring some rare excetpions like feather fall, that would do a LOT for making it a more popular school of magic.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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A full attack should basically be the equivalent of a flurry...maybe generating an extra attack. It should also be a more defensive style, giving you possibly a bonus to AC or your saves, possibly your bonus to hit.

Let's just say a Standard Action gave you all your attacks.

Taking the full attack action now means you are GIVING UP your move action. What do you get for that? Specifically, why isn't a full attack useful at level 1, when you don't get multiple attacks, as well as at 16th when you get your 4th?

Redefine what a full attack means.

Full Attack: Gain a +2 To Hit, to your AC or to your saves, your choice. This improves by +1 for each iterative attack you have.

So, you'd give up your move to really be able to hit something hard, to really defend yourself against an attack where you can't move, or to harden yourself against incoming spells and stuff.

That's worth losing a move action. It becomes a tactical choice, instead of the tactical choice being, "How can I move to get a full attack?"

Which also does away with Pounce and the best class being the one that gets it or an equivalent first.

The flip side of this? You have to choose if monsters also get the benefit of this with multiple natural attacks, or if it is only available with iteratives.

If iteratives, it swings the damage bar away from natural attack users and back to weapon users. Humanoids will have an advantage over monsters and wildshapers.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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You're probably being a little extreme. The fighter isn't the skill guy. He should, however, have at least as many skill points as a Ranger. There's no reason a Ranger, who can twiddle his fingers to solve so many of his problems, should have 6 skill points and the fighter shouldn't. The only reason he does is because hide in shadows, move silently, and track/survival are now skill points instead of class features.

But, two good saves is an imperative, and seriously, ALL good saves wouldn't be overpowered. The fighter has no class abilities that stack on them, unlike the monk.

Evasion should be a combat feat.

Talents are as bad as combat feats, and should be reserved to make the Rogue special.
Fighters should have their own 'Techniques' that other classes can't take, which should basically be combat feats that actually scale and are useful at all levels. In effect, a fighter's 'bonus combat feats' should be at least the equal of Rage Powers. They are both class features, but one is useful at all levels, and the other is meh.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Make the warpriest the combat cleric.
Get rid of the cleric.
Change the fullcasting cleric class to light armor, d6 HD and good Will save, with poor BAB and 4 skill points.

You've now effectively balanced the cleric class with the wizard class as far as comparisons go. Add in a few class features and you'll be fine.

OF COURSE a less martial cleric is going to be a 'trap' compared to the standard. The standard cleric (and druid) are the two most self-contained and flexible classes in the entire GAME.

They aren't call CoDzilla for no reason!

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Threeshades wrote:
True, but it's still at least one attack per turn at that point on which the feat does nothing.

If you have excess to hit, that's what Power Attack and Expertise are for...turning excess to hit into Damage and AC.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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1) Feat consolidation is fine.
2) Yes, bravery needs to be expanded. However, I take severe issue with 'other classes should be better at saves'. Here's the logic: "All the other melee classes have inbuilt class features that buff their saving throws, can cast spells, or have class features that enhance their saves (barb/pal/ranger specifically). The fighter has no spellcasting, no rage powers. Therefore, he should also have the worst base saving throws, in addition to no class features that buff those saves."
That's the logic you're using.
Because the fighter has nothing in his class features to buff his saves, he should actually have the best base saves of the 4 classes. Seriously, the fighter should be the most athletic, nimble, strong-willed and disciplined of the core 4 melee classes...fighting is ALL he does. And he has the worst saves of the classes?

4) Ignoring ability reqs for combat feats is a very minor buff. However, combat is offense, defense, movement and versatility...the fighter has only one of those options.

5) armor training being changed to a flat bonus is how the ability is supposed to work all along. Note that you have not changed the 'high end' result...all you did is not require a monster Dexterity for the fighter to be able to use his own class features!
I did the same, but made it a dodge bonus.

6) The fighter is already good at dealing monstrous amounts of damage in a consistent way, without spiking. He really doesn't need any more, esp. if he automatically gets weapon spec. He needs everything else (Defense, movement, options)

7) Healing. The ranger gets at level 4, level 1 with CLW wands. The paladin gets at level 1 with lay on hands and CLW wands, and then at level 4 with spells to boot. The barbarian gets Renewed Vigor by level 3 and more possibilities as he levels.
What's this about waiting to level 16 to be able to heal?

8) the barb can get +5 Nat AC and +5 Dodge while gaining +5 DR from class and +5 DR from rage powers. You're basically saying that because you set the Armor Training so the fighter always get the benefit of his class bonus, he can have less AC and no DR until late levels, while the Barb gets twice the AC and tons of DR.
Give them the DR and don't worry about it.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Ganryu wrote:

To be perfectly honest, the fighter is the kind of class that would benefit from having the underlying system simplified.

Getting rid of feats as they currently work would be a start.

Most of the things that a fighter currently needs feats to do should be available to all fighters without them having to spend feat slots on long feat chains.

This.

But this means basically rewriting feats into Techniques or Forms or Masteries that only Fighters can access.

For Fighters;

Feats should scale with level
Feats should synergize.
Feats should be easy to train permanently.
Feats should be accessible on short term demand.
feats should be full power and balanced class features, not half strength non-scaling class features.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Roger:

You've mostly just played with the Fighter's damage numbers. You've given him a save bonus...but precious little otherwise to help him with before level 13...when he FINALLY gets a movement bonus, able to full attack on a charge.

He's level 16 before he can heal himself.

He's level 19 before he gets DR, and suddenly it's 10/-

True Weapon is just more damage. THe fighter doesn't need damage, he needs more options.
Steel Lightning is more damage. The fighter doesn't need more damage, he needs more options.

Just my 2p.

My recommendations: The fighter should be able to do Weapon Spec damage with his favored weapon, with the sacrifice of only one feat.
The fighter should be able to get a save bonus.
The fighter should get DR early.
The fighter should be able to contribute to his companions.
The fighter should be able to withstand magic.
The fighter should get a movement bonus.
The fighter should get a bonus to command/lead large numbers of people, including recruitment and straight out combat bonuses.
The fighter should be flexible on what combat feats he should access if he has need of them.
The fighter should get more feats then anyone.
The fighter should get additional benefits from training and FC bonuses.
The fighter should get more out of feats then any other class.
The Fighter should learn feats more easily then other classes.
The fighter's class abilities should scale with level.
The fighter should be able to improve his weapons and armor without use of a wizard if need be.
The fighter relies on his gear more then other classes, and should be able to use his gear more effectively then other classes.
The fighter should have some way to regain health and recover from inflicted conditions without having to rely on magic.
The fighter does not have magic, and should have the skill points to reflect that.
The fighter should be able to contribute effectively in down time.
More then any other class, the Fighter should have a sidekick.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Well, a combination of Item spells and that 'portrait' spell that shrinks a 10 x 10 area down to a painting can also take care of a lot of mass transit.

But, yes, the Portable Hole is simply bigger, faster, and easier to access then a bag of holding. You can literally sweep loot into it.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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It has also been calculated to be able to hold approximately 1,000,000 gold pieces, if you need to stuff the dragon's hoard in there.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The Brian Clause

You are transported to...someplace else. You can move your eyes. You cannot seem to move otherwise. You notice after a moment you are not breathing...nor does your heart seem to beat.

You see in front of you books...endless rows of books. Towering up into the mist out of sight.

Floating back and forth before you are creatures you recognize somehow as modrons...very low level, triangular modrons, who seem to be transporting stacks and stacks of books for their perusal.

Unfortunately, as they peruse the books, other modrons come by, and relieve them of other tomes...and some books seem to slide free of their own power and go flying off back into the stacks of their own power.

To your sides, you can dimly make out other individuals. They seem powerful...clad in bright colors, shining armor, flowing robes of styles you have never seen before.

All of them with despairing eyes.

Notably, on all of their laps are papers...papers with words written on them.

Papers just like the one on your lap.

One of the triangular modrons pops out of nowhere, and lands in front of you. A single triangular eye winks at you once, fixes on the paper. A three-fingered semi hand reaches out and fixes on the paper. Slowly, it reaches out and picks up the paper, holding it up for perusal.

With a sinking feeling, you notice your clean, crisp, professionally paid for and administered calligraphy for your customized, nothing-can-go-wrong-with-this Wish is being held upside down.

"Research. Much research," the creature intones, squinting at the paper. It sets it back down on your lap, turns away, and begins shambling away...slowly.

Five minutes later, it is back again, looking at the paper. This time, you notice it is trying to read the blank backside....

You aren't aging. You aren't hungry, or thirsty, or uncomfortable. For all purposes, you might very well be immortal...

And you've a feeling you are going to be here a very long time.

(Thought up after the Knights of the Dinner Table where Brian submitted a paper where he wished to be a god). As the wish is in the process of being resolved for what will essentially amount to eternity, no contingencies ever trigger while essentially making the character immortal…just like he wanted. Goodbye.)

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Counterpoint: It degrades the importance of healing magic and the role healers play since you have cheap and easy access to healing.

It's all in the play style.

Spontaneous healing for clerics was put into the game to allow clerics to have other spells memorized.

CLW is there to speed up recovery time between fights. That's it.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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hah, yes it does. You're wearing the Emperor's New Clothes.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Ian Bell wrote:

If anything out-of-combat healing like that should be more available rather than less, IMO. As a DM one of my least favorite aspects of the 3.5/PF system is the drag on adventure pacing that the healing system imposes; anything that leads to longer adventuring days is a plus in my book, especially in the low levels where the wands really make a difference.

It's also, in my experience, a more fun game for low level divine casters when they get to use their real spell slots for things other than cure light wounds.

Well, it's more 'video-gamey' when you have access to lots of healing.

If you want grit and realism, you have access to less. Which is why non-casters don't have healing ability. Except barbs. But they're really magical warriors masquerading as anti-magic warriors.

It forces a change in play style to really smart play to avoid being injured, and potentially having to fight while wounded. Which happened in AD&D all the time, but which people used to Video Games really, really hate.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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waaaait, wait.

The gp limits is basically for any number of items, at the lower limit, up to a total of the max limit.

the 3d4 items is items that are ABSOLUTELY THERE, that might be above the gp limit. i.e. the stuff you'd normally have to commission.

Or am I reading it wrong?

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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No spellcasting to change his loadout?

With clerical spellcasting/20, equal to a Solar, he could simply use spells to replace gear. Give him a standard buff suite at his CL, and watch the numbers really change.

You could say all his clerical spells are cast as spell-likes, too, which would then work exactly as his DOmain SLA's.

And I'm not sure why he's still size M, smaller then a Solar. I'd have his default be H.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Threads like these also illustrate one thing:

There is a big difference between designing a level 20 Fighter to play the game, and saying, "Now, if I were a 20th level Fighter, I'd have..."

Because if you were, you'd invest in a lot different stuff just so stuff like this couldn't happen to you.

I agree that Martial Mastery could and might well save the Fighter's arse in this scenario. But, since this is a game, not 'real life', planning for this kind of situation is almost a moot point.

==Aelryinth

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Only with sufficient Ranks in Diplomacy and/or Bluff, and a substantial penalty for doing a rush job of it.

How many skill points do fighters get again? Are those class skills?
Ah, right.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Hah, look at all this from an innocent question.

I kind of assumed a 'naked' fighter would have his amulets and rings on, at the very least.

Then you have to determine what kind of bath he's in...inside a house, what floor, outside, in a cave, what?

He'll probably hear them coming. That could be the difference between life and death...he could at least grab a weapon and shield if he gets the surprise round.

Is there a defensive potion he could drink that could save his arse? Anything to up his immediate AC, and the fight probably turns. Mage armor won't cut it...but since he'll have +5 Nat Armor and +5 Deflection going, he's not actually all that horrible to start with. I estimate a 19 Dex for another +4 AC. Defensive fighting will get that to 27. If he has combat expertise, he can potentially hit 32. If he grabs his +5 shield, he can actually hit 38...at which point the level 10 party might not be able to hit him and he could likely slaughter them all.

As for Wiz/20....Precast Foresight. Solid defensive spell, long duration. He knows they are coming. One time stop later, they burst onto the wizard bathing and find a glowering planetar sitting there with an Astral Deva and Huge Celestial Water Elemental, and the wizard smoking his pipe on the opposite side of the room (really a projected image, but he has to rub it in).

==Aelryinth

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Abusive DM'ing is assuming Stoneskin is the be-all and end-all of protective magic, and there wasn't a cheap and easy way to get around it, if you were smart.

Of course, you could just be stupid and flail away with multiple attacks so he can kill you at leisure. My players, however, tended to be smarter then that.

YMMV. A player thinking he was invulnerable just because he had this spell was in for a rude awakening at my table. Different play styles, I guess.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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master_marshmallow wrote:

So yeah, upthread I already posted that I have an answer to the original question: "Why don't fighters take Master Craftsman?"

The answer is: "because the feat doesn't allow full access to the feat's potential and limits what you can actually make with it."
The bit about retaining coupled with some headbands/ioun stones for skill ranks not invested is sound advice for getting the most out of this concept. It almost makes it worth taking despite the obvious flaws.

As to the whole concept that investing in precession or craft is dumb, get out. There are plenty of uses for such things outside of RP uses.
(Soldier) is the skill used as the basis for mass combat, and (alchemy) is used by at least 3 different classes for the ability to even use class features. I think magic item crafting access is one of, if not the only, optimal reason to invest in such skills.

Let's not forget I am comparing a naked fighter with Master Craftsman with no friends to a naked fighter without it with no friends, and the one with Master Craftsman, despite the limitations, still has more options because of his potential abilities he can create for himself, both offensive and defensive, which are things you really can't do with two feats.

Just compare a home crafted +5 cloak of resistance at the cost of two feats vs Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude and not only do I have better saves, but I can still boost my own stats (and thus saves again so), improve my speed, my class abilities, and I have the potential to gain the ability to fly.
This is all at the cost of two feats. Aasimar require three feats to be able to fly and have to do it at 11th level.

The counter argument is the fighter with the 3 save feats also has a +3 Cloak of Protection, meaning you have the exact same saves, except he's got 3500 gp left over, and eventually he's going to have a +5 cloak and be one up on you.

And you are basically restricted to making clothing items, so I'm not sure where craft arms and armor was a good choice. You'd have been better off with armorsmith ranks and making helms, gauntlets, greaves, armored boots, gorgets, bracers, pauldrons, armor and shields to max your money advantage.

So the only way this feat is actually good is later game (9+) where you can leverage a money advantage (if you have the time to use the feat), or where gold and magic items are restricted via house rules in a campaign.

neither is standard play.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Pathfinder rewards good offense.
Pathfinder PUNISHES poor defense.

That's the way the two are looked at.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Are you playing AD&D or 2E? there's some major differences between the two.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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That should properly be "Eye m aye phrayed knot."

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Then I pronounce you wife and man.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Warhammer is the definition of a grimdark fantasy world. The races don't get along, even in the face of massive armies of orcs, skaven, undead, dark elves, dark dwarves, lizardfolk, and Chaos adherents, and the freaking Empire's nobles would rather rip away at one another then unite to fight the enemy.

The dwarves hold grunges to such extent they literally cannot forgive them. The elves look down on everyone so much they assume all other races are just automatically wrong if their wills conflict with the elves. The humans get corrupted all the time and can't get their heads out of their behinds without falling into 'slaughter everything that's not pure'.

I don't have prejudice against the Elves there, I just call 'em like they are. They aren't PF or D&D elves, they aren't the 'high good' of the setting like FR often has them, or even the receding twilight CG of Greyhawk/Oerth.
They aren't a CG race in Warhammer. They are as neutral stick-up-their-arses as all the other races in the setting, and it's completely by GW design. WH elves are NOT the 'good guys.' There literally are no 'good guys' in WH, and that's ALSO by design.

From the elves' standpoint, they are the first and best bastion of civilization on the world, and anyone else claiming anything remotely similar is obviously deluded. They simply can't see that their own attitudes are the primary cause of their people's decline.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Edymnion wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Except you are entirely ignoring that there are no offensive equivilents to Rings of Protection or Amulets of Nat Armor, and if you use a shield then you get it added on top.

Attack:

+20 BAB
+5 Magic Weapon
+X Stat

Defense:
+5 Magic Armor
+5 Magic Shield
+5 Natural Armor
+5 Deflection
+X Stat

Cancel out the stat scores, thats +25 to attack bonuses, and +20 to defense bonuses. Sure, your base armor and shield will typically be giving you more than the +5 to make up the gap, but it comes down to this.

That Fighter only had to spend gold on a +5 weapon. The defender just spent:

50k on deflection
25k on natural armor
25k on magic armor
25k on magic shield
--------------------
125k gold

Vs. the 50k the attacker spent on his +5 weapon. That bypasses all damage reduction.

The defender is having to spend nearly 3x as much of his item budget just to stay even with the attacker.

To be frank, we're talking level 20 stuff, and while people don't race to get +10 armor, they spread the AC out over many devices.

You left out the fact it's probably a +8 sword at the very least, at 128k. And it might be +10 at 200k.

Which means the fighter spent more on his sword then on ALL his defensive gear combined. Of course, a furious courageous +5 sword is likely worth it.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Defense actually increases faster then offense if you decide to put effort into it.

There are more ways to gain defense bonuses then attack bonuses.

The big ways of gaining attack bonuses are: BAB, Stat, magic Weapon, Class Features.

The big ways of gaining Defense are: nat armor, armor, shield, Stats, deflection, enhancement bonuses to nat armor, armor and shields.

A bog standard F/20 with BAB 20, +10 from 30 Str, +5 Weapon, and +6 Weapon Mastery is at +41. Of this, he's probably going to lose +6 for Power Attack, so he's really at +35.

The same fighter with full plate +5, Shield +5, Nat Armor +5, Dex+7, Deflect +5 is at a 47 AC. He can easily get it to 52 with Defender, 55 with Defensive fighting, and 61 with Expertise.
And we're not even talking displacement or other mischances, or polymorphs to gain more nat armor.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Well, my view on the High Elves of Warhammer is that they can't see the trees for the forest.

They are the epitome of a magical civilization in decline, tempted by pleasures of the flesh, arrogant in their history and their power, and don't believe the other races are worthy of their time.

The fact is that they know these are weaknesses of their people, they just don't bother to DO anything about them. They'd rather be arrogant and die off before raising up or trusting other races. It was a huge, huge event when the greatest mage of the High Elves went to the humans and showed them how to practice a basic magic set that wouldn't drive them insane!

But when they do stoop to working with other races, more often then not, they end up in command or become great teachers and famous. Charisma isn't a problem, they roll on pure Charisma. They just don't give a crap as a people about other races, or changing their own behaviors. In other words, they are too smart, and their personalities too forceful, to admit when they are wrong or need help. Kinda like a race of arrogant geniuses.

That does signify to me a racial Wis penalty to offset their advantages.

This gets REALLY imperative if you use the 'edit memories' thing that came out a while ago, where the High Elves can 'selectively get rid of' memories that they don't like or which they deem unimportant, so they don't clutter their heads up with extra stuff.
In other words, they wipe out their own experiences so only the 'good or necessary memories' stay around. They keep themselves inexperienced and hamstring their own maturity by getting rid of their own memories!

So, yeah, I am going to stick by Wisdom, because there really isn't anything that fits better for the High Elves' shtick.

But, YMMV.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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MM, that's a statement on just how bad the fighters options are, that this triple costing, nerfed feat is still better then most of them.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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I posit that the reason shields vanished from the battlefields was not because of 2h weapons. 2h weapons are generally not hugely viable in formation fighting.

No, the reason shields went away is for the same reason armor eventually went away...the rise of gunpowder weapons, particularly cannons.

A shield is little to no protection against sustained musket fire, and a big fat target for bouncing cannonballs. Its primary role as defense against ranged attacks was thus removed, and the usefulness of bearing one was outweighed by the benefits of speed and formation marching. As gunpowder weapons advanced, less and less armor was worn by all sides in conflict, simply because it did less and less good to the wearer. You ended up with more maneuverable, nimble opponents on the battlefield who could get into positions faster, take cover against gunfire, or simply didn't bother to protect against it at all.

Thus, shield walls gave way to pike formations, which gave way to lines of musketeers, and armored knights and archers had no more place in this new world then did shield bearers.

Note that shields in the hands of police didn't start making a comeback until they were impervious to rifle fire. Even then, you don't see them on a battlefield, because they don't protect you against grenades or gas, and they are cumbersome and slow you down.

The heyday of the shield is past, but not because they weren't awesome in melee combat. They are just not effective against the weapons of the modern age.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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It's awful because it takes two general feats and a bunch of skill points for what a Spellcaster can do with one item creation feat.

That is indeed AWFUL. Basically x3 the cost of getting what a spellcaster does?

It would be great IF you could take the feat, and then simply make any magic item you put the skill points into. THAT would be thematic, that would be interesting, and it would be versatile. Armor smiths could make magic items and armor wondrous items by spending only one feat...but couldn't make weapons. Potion makers could actually make elixirs, too! Leatherworkers could make leather armor and a host of wondrous items. Weavers could make anything to do with magical cloth. A weapon smith could create magic rods and staves that worked as weapons. A jeweler could have made magic Rings and amulets!

It would have been fun, versatile, and thematic. A little more costly in terms of skill points, but being able to cross item creation classes would have been worth it.

Instead you had to spend yet another feat so as to RESTRICT WHAT YOU COULD MAKE EVEN MORE.

ugh.

Vomiting feats down the toilet is right. Non-casters just don't get good things.

This feat could have made an Expert with 4 different craft or profession skills a versatile item maker on a par with any caster. Instead, you get crap.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Kamenhero,

I have to agree with Ashiel here.

You changed the game and are suddenly arguing that Master Craftsman is a good feat...despite the fact that it would still be better if the Spellcaster took Item Creation feats.

The fact is that the Fighter has fewer class features then any other class out there (like 16), and the same number of general feats as any other character. He doesn't have feats to waste. His half-strength class features are there to try to balance out the superior class features of other classes, and his general feats are there to try to overcome his shortcomings vs the base chassis of the other melee classes.

The fact you're in a low gold campaign and Craft skills have been altered so suddenly a person can get 100 gp of work done in ONE DAY does not make Magical Artisan better, it makes the Craft skills better.

The fact you're in a low magic campaign and one of the players decided it would be a good thing to make magic items doesn't make Magical Artisan better. It means the other characters should be crafting, too, and if they are spellcasters, they'll be better at it. The combination of the two basically means the other characters are choosing to be poor and undergeared.

By the rules of your campaign, ALL CHARACTERS there should have a craft skill so they can earn money at accelerated rates, rather then go adventuring, and all characters should have item creation feats so they don't have to depend on the DM to drop the latest doo hickey, they just make it themselves. If so, they'll do it better and more cheaply then the fighter.

That doesn't make Magical Artisan better. It makes it a feat tax so the characters can be where they should be in terms of WBL and power.

So, your 'fighter example' is an example of optimizing and minmaxing to the campaign, the very thing you decried in the start of your write up. The fighter is doing exactly what he should be doing to powergame more aptly - generating more gold then the other characters, and making magic items they can't just buy. He's a minmaxer. OF COURSE HE LOOKS GREAT - he's OPTIMIZING, and the others are NOT.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Need to make the spiked shield Bashing.
Next up...start making it a +5 Defender, level by level, and really watch your Combat aC soar. Or, make it Guardian, for the saves.

That sword really needs Bane/Evil outsiders...

Note defender AC is touch AC.

Unsanctioned Knowledge is a VERY good feat for paladins if you've the room.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Defensive fighting is a tactic which modifies the attack action, not merely actions with attack rolls.

The attack action does not include spellcasting. Spellcasting is a separate action.

Thus, you cannot fight defensively while spellcasting.

You can while shooting a bow or crossbow, however, as they do use the attack action.

The fact you are making an attack roll as part of your spellcasting is immaterial...your action is spellcasting. If it applied while Raycasting, it would apply while touchcasting or simply casting normally.

Note that it takes special actions by classes such as the magus to be able to attack with spells while taking the attack action. If you aren't a magus using spell combat, you're out of luck.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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I'd work with cleric.

The reason? Leave a spell slot or two open of each level, that you can fill with the appropriate status removal effect as needed. 'big heals' can always be swapped out using spontaneous cure.

No need to worry about spending cash on scrolls, or running out of scrolls.

Keep up with the CLW wands.
Earliest access to the big combat cure of Heal.

Access to the entire cleric spell list as you need it.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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If you're both using a finesse weapon in the finesse style and without armor and without taking advantage of your size and reach...i.e. catering completely to his inferior fighting style...sure, he'll win.

But that's just it...you're catering to his style. He's putting all sorts of restrictions on you for the fight. LIft those restrictions, and suddenly he's hurting, because he can't compete in the real world at all.

For instance, if you're mostly unarmored, a rapier is the finest dueling weapon in the world. It's got reach, it's solid, it's lethal, and it's fast-fast-fast compared to other swords.

If you're wearing armor and have a shield, a rapier is basically useless against you. If you're fighting a bear, a rapier is mostly useless, and a good way to get mauled.

Rapiers are a dueling weapon. Nobody took them into a serious battlefield or out on a hunt. They've literally got no other purpose. Sailors preferred cutlasses because they were smaller and could be used in close-quarters on or below deck. The length of a rapier made them unusable except in very specific circumstances (i.e. lots of room to maneuver, unarmored enemies).

===Aelryinth

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