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Varisian Wanderer

Aelryinth's page

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16. RPG Superstar 2013 Star Voter, 2014 Star Voter. Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. 6,506 posts (6,569 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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A Bane weapon vs Enemy X grants +2/+2 th/dmg, +2d6 damage.

That's effectively a +4 enhancement.

I thought you were talking about a magical ability, not a material ability.

'Demons' is a subset of 'evil outsider'. Any ability specifically targeting demons should cost half as much as a Bane ability that targets a broader group.

So, Bane: Demons should cost half a +1 ability (bane's cost)...if your DM allows 'half +1' effects.

+1, +2 against demons grants 1/4 the bonuses a Bane does. So, with half pricing because it's Demons and not Evil outsiders, that would be 1/8 the price.

So a sword +1, +2 against Demons would be 3,000 gp (2k + 1/8th the cost of a Bane being added of 8k).

As I noted above, splitting TH and DMG bonuses is a bad idea in general. +1 TH generally = +2 dmg (because of Power Attack). But, if you really want to, a Sword +1, +3 dmg against demons would be half the price of a +1 enhancement, half the price of a Bane's group, and 1/4 the normal Bane enhancement, for 1/16 normal price increase.

You'd end up spot on at +500 gp cost for a sword +1, +3 dmg vs demons, or 2500 gp total.

Be very wary of stacking these minor effects!

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Use Bane as your calculator.

It's a +1 Enhancement, giving you +2/+2, +2d6 against a specific class of foes.

Reptiles is a subset of beast/magical beasts. Depending on how you rule it (are dragons reptilian?), the category should be 1/2 to same as Bane's Category.

+1d6 of broad damage is worth +1 (elemental damage, holy, etc).

+2/+2 is worth +2.

So you have a +4 enhancement worth +1 because it applies against only a specific set of monsters.

So, if all you're going to do is increase by +1, it should be worth 1/4 of +1. So, a +1, +2 sword is going to be adding 1/4 of 8k, or +2k. If reptiles is more restricted (no reptilian humanoids, no dragons), then half that, so +1k.

A sword +1, +3 vs something is going to be 1/2 or 1/4 of a +1 increase.

A Sword +1, +4 against something should be 3/4 or 3/8 of a +1 increase.

A sword +1/+5 should be worth either as much as a Bane, or 1/2 as much, depending on who it's effective against.

So if you need to calculate effects, just break up how it compares to Bane, which is effectively a +4 'limited' to a +1 cost. Increase proportionately.

If it has a 'broader' base then Bane, double the cost. i.e. a sword +1, +3 against Evil should be priced at half Bane, doubled for the broad category, so straight +2 pricing.

You should probably avoid separating Th and Dmg bonus, i.e. a sword +2 th, +4 damage. That gets really wonkey in pricing, and leads to min-maxing (the TH side is far more valuable then damage, and what bonus is it for DR purposes?)

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The areas fighters are weak in:

Social Skills.
Group buffs.
Non-combat skills.
Downtime contribution. (alchemist makes alchemy, casters make magic, fighter sits on his duff?)

Lack of ability to train and expand repertoire of abilities and stats (contrast to ever expanding spell lists).

Movement, all modes.
Defenses, all modes, but esp. vs magic.
===========
Kindly note that DPR is not on the list.

Note that combat feats basically address NONE of these issues, nor do his class abilities. So condensed feats doesn't mean much, unless you expand the basket of feats.

===Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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the fighter has always been the best martial leader of the classes. The experienced soldier and leader of militaries was always the fighter.

The fighter sucks at this role.

The fighter, when placed next to other martial classes in all of the five standard roles of Champion, Guardian, Sentry, Hunter and Soldier, is worse then any other class.

Do you realize the Fighter is the only martial class that doesn't get a damage bonus at level 1?

The fighter has no quasi or full magical ability to fall back on. Yet we are supposed to believe that a man with no magic is less skilled then someone who can wiggle his fingers and solve a problem without having to work hard, or some other brute from a savage background who just goes ape(^&*^ to solve his problems?

The Fighter is not on a par with the other martial classes, and he should be.

======
ANd Flawed, moving the goal posts is another sure sign of a failed argument.

Come on, bringing in the cleric to a discussion of movement speeds? A spellcaster that can whip up spells to solve the problem as they like? All of my examples used the other martial classes because that what I was comparing the fighter with. We don't go near casters.

And having a monster dex bonus to AC permitted is absolutely useless unless a) you are a Dex-centered fighter and b) you actually have the monster dex.

A suit of Mithral Celestial Plate provides for any class of heavy armor character up to a dex of 25. Exactly why does the average fighter need his class ability if +6 enhancement and +5 Inherent from a starting 13 Dex delivers him to that point?

More to the point, starting with a 14 Dex, Celestial Plate will satisfy any martial character until level 17 without using Mithral, assuming no inherents before then.
============================

and Wasted, saying 'Fighters weren't designed with social skills, so suck it up' is not an argument, when every other martial class gets some form of social power, be it from being able to buff those around them or flat out bonuses to skill checks (that may or may not be class skills).

Saying 'suck it and build up his Cha' is really saying "Don't play a fighter. Build some other martial class so you can do what you want to better."

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Threeshades wrote:

I like the idea with bravery bonus to charisma checks but also agree that not all fighters should be charmers, so how about making that one of several options I could think of the following added to the bravery class feature:

The fighter chooses one of the following types of bravery, he gains the associated bonuses in addition to the bonus to will saves against fear:
Confidence The fighter radiates an aura of confidence that make him an impressive individual. He gains his bravery bonus bonus to all charisma based checks.
Daring the fighter takes physical challenges without hesitation. He gains his bravery bonus as a morale bonus to acrobatics, fly, ride and all strength-based checks.
Discipline The fighter is focused on his tasks and hard to deter. The fighter gains his bravery bonus to all wisdom based checks.

Ideally, he'd get all of these. Bravery is just that bad, and since it's capped at +5, none of these bonuses are ever going to be 'broken'.

You could rein them in further by making them morale bonuses so they don't stack with certain other buffs, instead of being untyped, if you needed to.

But yeah, when I did a fighter rewrite, Bravery got massively rewritten into something useful and viable at all levels.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Flawed wrote:

Why does the adventure have to be about standing around beating sand bags and how is this any different from any other melee class. Everyone struggles with something. Claiming that a class like barbarian gets pounce is disingenuous. It gets pounce IF you take beast totem. Should you choose any other totem you don't get pounce. Same is said of the natural armor bonus. So under the logic perpetuated on these boards the barbarian is also a worthless class unless it takes beast totem. No beast totem, no pounce, stand around and beat sand bags.

I literally posted some generic stats that seem to never be looked at. A 28 strength by level 20 is good enough to be a solid melee combatant. Having a 20 in every other stat gives you all the versatility you need. You have 7 skills per level totaling 140 by 20. 160 if you used the favored class option. That's 8 skills to have 20 ranks in or being really good at 8 skills. You get a large bonus (+5) to all saving throws. It covers many of the weaknesses of the class, but since it's not a 30+ strength it gets disregarded. Sure the argument will be made that magic items fix class problems and that's the point. The game has magic items ingrained into it. It's a complete package. Again, disingenuous to claim that everyone takes magic items so magic items don't count. Even the level 10 stat array posted had an average to hit of 95%/70% with its two attacks and only an 18 strength with the lowest stat sitting at a 15. Not a single 7 to be seen. No dump stats at all. Level 10: +3 AC, +3 reflex saves, +3 dex skills, +3 hp/level, +3 fort saves, 4 skills per level(5 with favored class), +2 will saves, perception, sense motive, UMD, diplomacy, bluff. Sure you can't take everything and this is the point i was making with designing within your limits. It took no effort to make this character. He sacrificed a little bit of his damage to balance out his weaknesses a little. Within this constraint you make a well rounded character and not "hey I do damage...

And if you take those exact same stats, FC and whatever, and USE A DIFFERENT CLASS, it is better then the fighter.

i.e. bringing non-class stuff into a class comparison is a useless comparison on its face.

Every single other class will have a better Reflex save, for starters.
The barb and paladin will have better will saves, possibly tremendously so.
All but the paladin will have more skill points. The paladin will dump Wis in favor of Cha, and be loads better at Diplomacy because of it.
The game doesn't start at level 20 with a 20 Int.
They'll ALL be about equal in combat. Except the non-fighters will be that way with any weapon they bother to wield, not just one.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Fighters should only beat things with a stick?

You're describing a WARRIOR.

Fighters are the OLYMPIANS of the melee set. They should be able to become excellent at every single role expected of a melee combatant, and stand shoulder to shoulder with every other melee class.

Do I expect them to be able to heal? NOt others.
But the Barbarian can heal himself (raging vitality).
The ranger can heal himself and others (spells, wands)
The paladin can heal himself and others (spells, wands, LOH, Channel?)

So, at least I'd

Do I expect them to be able to socialize out of combat?
Barbs have 4 skill points, the better to afford Intimdiate...or other skills, crafts or professions.
Rangers actually get bonuses against favored enemies in social situations. ANd 6 skill points.
Paladins have Charisma as a main stat, spells, and Diplomacy.

I'd like the Fighter able to stand with them.

The barb has 4 skill points a level, and can get rage bonuses to numerous skills, as well as souped up str bonus to skills.
The ranger has 6 skill points, excellent skill bonuses vs FE and for FT, stealth enhancements, and spells to supplement.
The paladin is the worst of these...but has a mental stat, Cha, as a prime stat that dovetails with spellcasting and Diplomacy. Oh, and spells.

I'd like the fighter to stand with them.

Relative power level should mean relatively equal, especially among characters with the exact same experience level and party function.

To I expect them to be able to Group buff?
The Barbarian can grant rage to other members of the party.
The Ranger can grant FE bonuses to other members of the party...and has spells.
The Paladin radiates courage, has spells, and can grant smite to every member of the party.

So, yeah, I'd like the fighter to be able to buff the party.

Do I expect something like a combat buff?
Well, aside from Rage? barbs get come and get me, Strength Surge, Reckless Abandon...as well as Dodge and Nat AC bonuses. And Superstitious.
Rangers get Instant Enemy and Gravity Bow and Lead Blades and Barkskin and Resist Energy and Evasion and Improved Evasion and great skill buffs against FE's or in favored Terrain.
Paladins get LOH, Sword Bonds, Smites, more immunities, and multiple useful spells. Did I mention Smites?

So, yeah, I'd like some sort of combat buff.

Do I expect Movement enhancements?
Barbs get Fast Move and Jump bonuses. ANd Pounce. And Pounce.
Rangers get Longstrider and can move over favored terrain easily.
Paladins can cast Grace and choose a Supermount.

So, yeah, I'd like a movement effect that can't be duplicated by Mithral Armor.

If the fighter cannot DO the things that EVERY OTHER MELEE CAN DO...then the class needs to be either brought up, OR the one-dimensional character should level up very, very quickly since that is all he does.

I'd like him to do that.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Lemmy wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Again, Fighters have NO feats that help them out of combat. They only have combat feats.

Well... Intimidating Prowess is a Combat feat, and it does help out of combat.

And I still think having bonus combat feats (mostly) counts as having bonus normal feats.

After all, earning $500 + health care is basically the same as getting $500 + the money necessary to pay for health care... Not exactly as good, of course, but it's pretty close, since you most likely want that health care anyway.

We'll assume everyone gets $500. That's the general feats.

The Fighter gets Healthcare. Everyone else gets another $500 they can pay for Healthcare. And they get free room, board, gas money and if they choose healthcare, they get their deductibles all paid for and a Medical Savings Account. If they are spellcasters, they get four weeks paid vacation, too.

Fighters, staying happy with Healthcare.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Again, Fighters have NO feats that help them out of combat. They only have combat feats.

Characters have non-combat feats, but the fighter player has no more then any other, and unlike most classes, has to spend a significant amount of them on his defenses.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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magic gives power to unique individuals who master it.

Technology gives power to large groups of people who can use and benefit from it.

They address very different things. That's probably why Tech is always seen as an instrument of Law and Magic is usually seen as part of Chaos.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Um, George RR Martin was writing in the early 80's?

Because Githyanki stems from the original Fiend Folio, which came out in what, 1986?

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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eggzactly.

Saying just because you get combat feats you can spend general feats on something else is like saying because you get rage and rage powers you can spend general feats on something else.

Unfortunately for that comparison, it ignores the fact that rage and rage powers are considerably stronger and more versatile then combat feats. And yet Barbs might still choose to spend general feats, race, class, magic items and traits on defenses, crazily enough.

It's an opportunity cost. You have NO CHOICE but to spend your fighter bonus feats on combat feats. it's a class feature. Saying that because you get combat feats instead of general feats is nothing is exactly like saying because the paladin gets mercies and HIS class features, he can go ahead and spend general feats on defenses.

Except the paladin class features has enough defenses that he doesn't have to.

It's the very definition of opportunity cost.

General feats from character levels are in their own silos for any kind of class comparison and discussion. Bringing them in is just another way of glossing over the weakness of a class.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Fighter feats are passive and many are simply incoroporated into the base stat block.

And complaining about feats is like complaining about spells. Do you complain when having to pick which of the two dozen spells your sorcerer has available to cast at 10th? What about the sixty+ at level 20?

and that's not even getting into a prepared caster.

More feats is easy to accomplish and allocate.

One big thing I do is include Training feats, instead of just combat feats. Adds a lot more outside-combat flex to the fighter.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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RDM42 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
Ael ... You are making a meaningless distinction and treating it as something critical.

No.

I'm making a critical distinction and you are treating it as something meaningless. That's quite a difference.

==Aelryinth

It's funny, because so far even the people on your side of the broader argument think you are making a niggling distinction here.

You're actually seeing a very small fraction of the fighter argument.

In most of the threads, my point is spot on and agreed with by the posters 'on my side of the argument'. You don't make class comparisons by dragging in a) race b) general character feats c)traits d) non-prime ability scores or e) magical items.

Completely ignoring the fact that ANY melee class could take the same things and end up better then the fighter.

ALL typical fighter 'defenses' rely on non-fighter stuff, unlike the other melee classes, and the people who love the fighter and recognize the flaws are quite tired of it.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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RDM42 wrote:
Ael ... You are making a meaningless distinction and treating it as something critical.

No.

I'm making a critical distinction and you are treating it as something meaningless. That's quite a difference.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The FIghter has no more general feats then the wizard does.

Other classes have things that enhance their saves - Paladin Cha, Barb superstitious, Ranger evasion. Even Rogues have their prime Stat enhancing their one good save, so while they may lose the save or suck roll, they will almost always make the save or burn roll.

Other classes of course get spells to fill the hole.

The Fighter as a class gets none of those. Arguing you can take your General Feats as a character to plug a glaring hole in your class is a complete misrepresentation and glossing over of what is really taking place.

Class comparisons are to be done independently of external trivialities. Comparing the fighter's will save to the wizard's is fine. Comparing the expenditure of general feats to the wizard expending none is not fine.

Saying Race fixes a fighter's problems is similarly trying to deflect attention from the problems of the class.

And that example of a Trait, A save, and a Wis investment is par with a wizard at 10, and falls behind thereafter. With the wizard making no investment whatsoever. Except maybe picking up save booster items for half price with his class features, who knows?

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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YOu use the feats to shore up the areas the fighter is weak in.

The fighter doesn't need more combat power. This has been addressed time and again. He needs versatility, defenses, mobility and out of combat utility.

You're not doing much for defenses and out of combat utility here. Furthermore, your pool accretes more fatigue points by level, but not more potent abilities except by spending more points.

And I'm personally against pools for fighters. If I want a pool, I'll play a monk or barb or magus or something other then a fighter. His lack of pool and spells is already different then any other class except the rogue.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Instead of Rogues getting a spell and a spell list, turn the Arcana Talents into something that keeps scaling, i.e. instead of Rogue Talents as they level, allow them to get more arcane spells, up to, say, level 6.

Let them cast exactly 3 spells a day per level they know, gaining 2+Int spells at each level known. Furthermore, treat it as a spell-like ability, not spellcasting, to further differentiate it from normal casters.

So, they'd know way more spells then they could cast, but they'd be short a lot of Rogue Talents. Oh, and don't allow spells with pricey material components, of course.

It would take 7 uses of Rogue talents to top it out, but it would be very unique and flavorful. The limited uses would be very different in play style. And of course, as spell like abilities, metamagic rods won't work with it. But they could take Quicken Spell like ability...

Beginning Arcana (0 level spells)
Apprentice Arcana (1st level spells)
Minor Arcana (2nd level spells)
Adept Arcana (3rd level spells)
Major Arcana (4th level spells)
Superior Arcana (5th level spells)
Great Arcana(6th level spells)

Each Arcana Talent gets you 2+Int modifier in arcane spells known of that level or lower levels from the wizard list. You may choose the mental stat for your casting modifier.

You may use each Arcana level a total of 3 times per day as spell-like abilities (similar to a sorcerer). Each time you choose a new Arcana, you may change the Arcana Known for lower level Arcana as well. You may take an Arcana more then one time to increase your Known Arcana, but it does not increase your Arcana Castable.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Karzoug is stuck in his timeless prison and can't get out. That's why others are doing the fighting. It would be a major rewrite for him to be able to get out of there.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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And a lance charge for a cavalier is not possible in 90% of combat scenarios, whereas the inverse is true for challenges and panache use.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Ravingdork wrote:
andreww wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Staff of the Master isn't all that broken. It is better than most staffs, granted.

Neither is the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, though it probably should be priced higher.

Staff of the Master Necromancer is incredibly powerful, it's like the worlds most versatile metamagic rod. Being able to freely add quicken, dazing, persistent etc to your highest level spells in huge. In a home game you can limit it a bit by placing time pressure on players making it hard to start each adventure with it charged but that gets very obvious and very forced very quickly.

So you can go Super Sayan once every ten adventuring days, or spread out the butter a little thinner over time.

I personally see the metamagic rods as being more powerful since you can use them every. single. day.

That logic is akin to saying "I like full BAB classes because they are awesome all the time, as opposed to partial BAB classes who have to buff up and can then kick the ass of the full BAB guys whenever they feel like it."

The ability to bring it with any metamagic feat, in quantity, at the time you NEED it, is extremely powerful.

Yeah, for sieges, and going out and killing stuff every day, the MM Rods are stronger...if you know you are going to need that specific feat, for those low level spells.

But the Staff works with any spell and any feat at any time. It's the perfect Metamagic tool when you want it and need it, and you get to prep it ahead of time!

As far as toolbox magic items go, it's one of the best.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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'the dip class' was 3E. We want the fighter to remain viable at ALL LEVELs.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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You're here. You're talking about the fight. You WON.

I call it a great game and pat your GM on the back.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Kudaku wrote:

I'm not giving up a dex bonus for being small - halflings and humans both get a bonus to dexterity. Humans, by virtue of not being small, inherently favor strength over dexterity by placing a handicap on dexterity. Ignoring the advantage a small dex user has over a medium-size dex user will automatically skew your results, since you're not actually using the advantages dexterity offer over strength.

It's akin to comparing THF and TWF but deciding that neither build can use power attack. Clearly the results you'll get from the comparison will be inaccurate, since that option affects the two builds differently.

I really don't know how I can explain it more clearly than that.

Your logic is in error.

Humans place no advantage on strength or dexterity. They are statistic neutral and favor neither stat.

It is the halflings who place the emphasis on dexterity, both by being small and having a racial dex bonus. And if you were doing an optimization run, that's FINE. 100% with you, all the way.

You are not. You are trying to make a COMPARISON. Which means everything identical and as neutral as possible. Which comparing a Halfling to another build is not.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can get. If you don't want to compare, fine, you're great. Post your optimized build. If you want a true comparison, then you're not doing it right.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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No, you've explained that you don't want to give up a dex bonus for being small.

Humans are stat neutral and do not favor Str. There's no bonus or penalty for dex at medium size.

You're trying to leverage size advantage. You're fine to do that in an optimization build, but not a comparison build.

==Aelryinth

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no, you're removing size as a factor from the start.

Saying 'but if I get this race I get this bonus' is no different then me saying "Here, use Orcs for your Dex build."

Humanity is stat neutral. It favors none of them. You're basically telling me that because you can't take a race that favors a Dex build more then 90% of the other races, you have a handicap?

You're not making a comparison at that point. You're making an optimal build. There's a difference.

A comparison says I can take everything you have, alter the focus from Dex to Str, and see what happens.

For instance, if you want to play a small character, can I spend 2.5k to get a Permanently Enlarged character? This gives me many advantages, which don't really benefit a dex wielder at all.

See why we don't bring size into comparisons?

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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chaoseffect wrote:
The thing is your assertion that everything he does it about money isn't anywhere in the actual class mechanics or even the flavor text. The class says the assassin is a cold, detached professional killer. The rest? That's all you adding on to it. It's certainly a valid way to flavor it, but it is hardly the one true undisputed RAW way.

So it is. But 'detached' is the operative word here in your own description.

The assassin PrC does NOT have a higher cause. He kills someone because he was told to kill them. NO justification, no 'I'm doing this for the greater good', no 'saving the innocent'. He was told to kill someone, and he did it.

he could be depraved, a sociopath, sadistic, totally arrogant, whatever...but he's not doing it for a higher cause.

You want higher causes, Red Mantis is one, Lion Blades of Taldor are another (with a bardic twist) and etc etc etc as far as special operatives go.

The assassin PrC just murders. Twinkies want it for the death attack and the spell list.

I shouldn't be saying this, but assassin PrC complaints are basically Paladin complaints from the other end. Basically people want the stuff, but that silly alignment thing doesn't fit their vision, so obviously the class is built wrong.

meh.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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That's an excellent block fix, too. He probably deserves it more then the monk does.

You can make a 'quick fix' of the fighter by:

Going to 4 skill points, and adding another 4 skills of the fighter's choice to his list:

Going all good saves;

Letting the fighter skip pre-reqs for feats, at least as well as a ranger does;

And making Vital Strike and Weapon Spec feat trees one feat.

it doesn't solve the issue, but it helps.

==Aelryinth

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How you want to define assassins is not the point here.

The game has defined assassins as evil folks loyal only to the coin who kill anyone for money. Those people qualify for this PrC.

That's it. Not agreeing with that definition is moot. If you want to rule your assassins are different, go ahead and house rule.

==Aelryinth

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TOZ with the wet noodle for the win.

==Aelryinth

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Quinn the Eskimo is a an old song from the 60's, the GI Joe character was a reference to the song. :)

==Aelryinth

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Let's first look at your premises:

First, this is a fantasy world, and you're injecting too much reality. Guys didn't train all their lives just to master their greatsword ...they trained all their lives JUST TO STAY IN SHAPE so they could wield a greatsword.

Two, wielding a weapon is hard to learn. It doesn't take 16 hours a day. You have plenty of time to devote to learning other things. All you have to do is look at modern soldiers and the amount of stuff they are expected to learn. As long as it is directly relevant to your duties, it should be learnable. Indeed, it is YOUR JOB to learn this stuff!

So, no mod to skill points makes no sense. Fighters will learn anything and everything that is needed to make their job better...fighters can be extremely intellectual, and some of the greatest books on philosophy have come from the minds of warriors.

Three, all assumptions of reality break down once you pass level 6. Remember, this is a world of magic, where the magic of xp helps someone level to be impossibly good at something in very short periods of time, where in six months you can know more about a trade or profession then someone who has been doing it for years. THe magic for the fighting classes comes in learning stuff faster then anyone in the modern world would believe possible. Leveling is magic. Skills, BAB, feats are the magic the warrior wields. He is not limited by our conventions.

Four, the lack of good saving throws is idiotic. Any warrior will tell you you must have defenses. Without defenses, the strongest offense means nothing. Iron WIll doesn't cut the mustard, and Improved Iron WIll at level 10 for a 1/day reroll doesn't work, either.

Five, Armor training Dex cap is DUMB. It forces the Fighter to have a high Dex in order to take advantage of his own training. Either change it to a straight dodge bonus or another kind of bonus.

Simply have Armor training advance to level 19, and it becomes the capstone. Add extra benefits at 11 and 15 to keep the pattern of extra stuff going. Smooth progression.

Six, without a feat fix, your build won't mean anything. Not only did the fighter have fewer class features then any other class, you took away 2.5 of them (since bonus feats are only worth half a class features).

===============

You really, really oversimplified the fighter, and cut his legs out from under him by trying to force him to obey the laws of reality in a magical world.

I suggest a re-write, along the principles of "Fighters learn skill - combat skill, skill points, toughness, etc - magically fast and well, and turn that learning into ability that rivals the magical arts of all other classes."

===Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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I'd first try it out as 'Every Vital Strike includes Precision damage, such as Sneak Attack damage'.

This means that the Rogue can Vital Strike and get his Sneak attack damage every single round, if he so chooses. That alone will do wonders for his offensive ability.

You should NOT tie it to crits. Crits create weapon discrepancy. Tie it to his SA infliction as another condition. That way he's not reliant on the full attack unless he really has something on the ropes and can hit it easily.

As for fixed Precision damage...it won't hurt anything if you include it, as Vital Strike as written isn't strong enough to break that way.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Neongelion wrote:

You know what, I hope you're right. I would actually be very interested if Androffa and Golarion interacted in more ways beyond a gigantic science vessel crashing. But the problem is that each Adventure Path is contained canon, and Paizo doesn't have an actual metaplot for the setting, so if Paizo ever canonizes Androffa-Golarion contact it's going to be in a "sequel" Adventure Path, ie Distant Worlds AP.

Where, I suspect, James Jacobs will finally be able to see his Lovecraft fantasies come true in full, space opera glory when the Dominion invades the entire solar system, and the party led by Commander Shepard must put together a team of young heroes to combat the Borg invasion and liberate a conquered Earth by shooting a Wave-Motion Gun into a thermal exhaust port on the Cylon Mothership, setting up a chain reaction to kill The Flood via Stargate transmission throughout the Galaxy.

Wait a minute...

Fixed that for you.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Wonderful items?

Are we ignoring GP value? Because the cloak of the manta Ray and the pearl of sirines are awesome...except they cost too much.

I still love the Helm of Brightness.

Yes to Gauntlets of Ogre Power.
Yes to original girdles of Giant Str.
Yes to combining them with magic warhammers, esp the dWarven Thrower and Hammer of Thunderbolts.

We always loved stumbling across a Frost Brand. +6 against fiery creatures and it puts out fires? With fire resistance on top? Awesome!!!

Giant Slaying swords were much loved. We fought giants all the time. Dragon Slayers were...nice if you fought the appropriate dragon, but otherwise meh.

Original Boots of Striding and Boots of Speed. Boing! and vroom! meant something.

Elven cloaks and boots were common and useful.

The Quiver of Ehlonna still rocks, as does Heward's Haversack, and the Ring of Sustenance is even improved!

For special situations, the Lyre of Building, and the Maul and Mattock of the Titans were quite cool.

Rods of Absorption and Books of Many Spells were very cool in the old version, especially if a multi-classed caster was using the latter.

And we still get a kick out of Portable Holes.

Rings of Free Action were easy and cool, but the thought of getting Elemental Command was woooooooooooot!

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The reason there's no equivalent choice is that a massive increase in dex is more powerful then a massive increase in Str.

A massive increase in Str basically gives you melee to hit, melee damage, ranged damage, carrying capacity, and Str checks/skills.

A massive increase in Dex can give you melee AND missile to hit and damage, AC, initiative, touch AC, a plethora of skills, and Reflex saves. Dex is useful to every single character, while Str is only useful to Str melee builds.

The best analogue is simply melee monsters. What does all the extra strength give them? Not much. The real power is to hit and Power Attack and its equivalents. The simple limit of one attack on a move is a real problem.

And you're also missing the fact that Weapon Finesse and Agile ARE those equivalent feats for Dex users. They provide massive upgrades to melee to hit and damage. Str has no equivalents to them!
======
as for build comparisons:

A Dex to damage twf build will likely blow a Str twf build away, simply because of the dex req for TWF.

A sword and board will likely be equivalent in DPR, with the Dex to damage guy using a buckler. The Dex guy keeps all his other advantages, however.

The 2hw Str guy has an absolute advantage damage advantage over a Curve Blade user, or a katana wielded 2handed, because of Str and Power Attack interactions. However, the Dex user still has his other advantages. I'm fairly sure that if the two fought, the 5ish point AC advantage of the Dex user would trump the damage of the Str guy, all else being equal.

The Dex guy will enjoy an absolute advantage in ranged combat, Reflex saves, Touch AC, initiative and dex skills like, oh, Stealth. That never changes, regardless of build, but seems to keep getting lost in the DPR comparison.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Rage: You're now getting a finite resource that requires cross-class dipping. The dex character can use this, too. Doesn't Urban Barbarian provide a dex buff?
Dragon Disciple requires you to take levels in spellcaster and drop BAB.
Abyssal and Orc bloodlines require massive investment in Charisma.
Enlarge Person is not a class ability for martials, so you're either dependent on another caster or dipping a specific cleric domain, or turning into a spellcaster.
Monstrous Physique/Form of the Dragon - requires high level spellcasting.
Dragon Style + dragon Ferocity = 3 feat tax (IUS also required).

The dex advantage to armor is absolute and easily managed vs heavy armor. Medium armor is at best a +1 Armor over light, and heavy +1 over medium. So you're talking a +2 AC.

However, armor remains static. Dex continues to rise rapidly. IF we are talking fighters and not giving up armor training, it is extremely unlikely that a fighter is going to max out his dex bonus to AC until very high levels (a Mithril BP accommodates a level 10 Fighter's 24 dex just fine, and Celestial mail would accommodate a dex of 30).

I also find it very odd that you're going to compare a dex twf build to a Str 2hw build. If you want to make a straight comparison, you have to make it style to style.

TWF for both stats.
Sword and Board for both stats.
2hw for both stats.

Then you have to keep in mind that at pretty much all times, the Dex guy will have:
A much higher reflex save.
Better initiative.
Probably better AC and better touch AC.
Better ability with Archery and missile fire.
A much higher bonus on Dex skills.

Assuming the same gear, the Dex guy comes out ahead on defense, and will be ahead, on par, or slightly behind on melee offense, while ahead on missile offense.

Also, remember that Dex guy raises Str at the same rate as Str guy raises Dex, and if they start with the same stat, carrying capacity will likely not be an issue, or solved with minor investment.

At extremely high levels, the advantages of a high Dex over a high Str for most melees are impressive when it comes to defense. Having a 5-10 point defensive advantage for AC is very powerful.

This case of comparing a 2hw Str guy to a 2wf dex guy just makes no relative sense.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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'googol' is a number. As a descriptive term, you'd have to say 'googolic' and 'googolplexive'.

==Aelryinth

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That's why it's an awesome alternate buff for a Paladin's sword bond.

==Aelryinth

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LazarX wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:


Survival and getting along in the wild for yourself is take 10, sure enough. Now, you're going to let the other 3 members of your party/platoon starve to death, right? And what if its hostile terrain and the DC is 1 point higher? Guess what, you die, too.

Not to mention being able to find north is kind of important if you want to get to a battlefield.

If you're talking about your average soldier, he doesn't need these skills. he's supposed to fight, not forage... there's other components of the army responsible for keeping him fed.

He's also not responsible for determining direction... He marches as part of a troop, and there are officers who tell him where to put his feet.

Most of the roles you are thinking of are defined by experts and scouts, i.e Rangers or Experts with the selected skills you'd ascribe to Scout. (you can make a pretty good scout with the expert class)

You're absolutely right, a warrior won't need the skills.

You're not a warrior. You're a fighter. You need to get where you're going, and keep yourself and your friends alive while you do so.

You ARE the expert.

And when the whole army is foraging for food, it's going to be a lot harder to find food without totally destroying the formation of your army, i.e. you don't do it. You send out people with the skill who can collect enough for multiple people.

And that's the elite, the professional. Oh, and it's probably a good idea if he doesn't get lost and makes it back to camp, too.

The warrior, he gets to skin and cook it. Maybe.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Brilliant energy is a monstrously powerful temporary buff idealized to kill PC's and NPC's. It is effectively worthless against anything else and worse then worthless against undead and constructs.

It's not too pricey because of the first function. An elevating bonus to hit as your enemy has better gear is monstrously powerful.

But it's flavored totally wrong. It should be a soul-leeching shaft of negative energy, not a blade of light.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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I suppose it comes down to:

I would like magic items to be able to do things spells can't do.

I would like magic items to offer things that are actually better then cast spells at applicable levels, so non-casters have options.

I would like magic items that cater to non-casters, period. being able to cast spells should not always be better, especially when it comes to gear.

Stuff that is better when worn by non-casters, or penalizes casters when worn, would start swinging some balance back the other way.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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If brilliant were named "Penumbral" and flavored as a soul-consuming shaft of purple black darkness that feeds on the living...Hells, it would be PERFECT. Every life-reaping undead's wet dream.

But...Brilliant? What?

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The Helm of Underwater action is a 3E classic. Far too expensive for what is basically "Now you can breathe underwater."

Staves being too expensive to use at low levels, and not worth the investment at higher levels.

Apparatus of Kwalish. I mean, come on. What serious adventurer would ever get stuck inside one? A 6 year old kid wanting to explore underwater, sure.

Boots of striding and springing. Sure, the +10 to move is nice. But the awesome cool thing about it in 1E was the jumping ability. Come on, +9 to Jump? That lets you jump, like, 2' higher in the air, as opposed to the 10' it used to. Man, I used to bounce up so many walls with those things.

Boots of Speed. I'm not saying they're not useful...but what this is is a reusable potion of haste. Boots of Speed in 1e let you move FAST...only a higher level monk was faster. They don't even grant a move bonus now...so much for SPEED. The PF Boots should be called Boots of Haste.

Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Girdles of Giant Strength. Compared to 1E, these things have NO flavor at all. I know exactly why they were changed, but still...no flavor. Meh. Stat bonus. No rock throwing/catching. No arms only for the gauntlets. No 'I am as strong as a Hill Giant!'. Bland as can be. Compare the implications in 1E of saying "I have a Girdle of STORM GIANT STRENGTH!" versus what they are now.

Adamantine Armor. The DR is so underwhelming its hard to describe. Nobody in their right mind wears it over the Dex bonus and lightness of Mithral. ANd as inferior armor, it costs MORE!

Wands. Wands have no flavor. There is nothing special about them. A spell in a can with nothing about them different then casting it yourself...except they are too expensive to be as effective as casting the spell yourself.
Wands should have SOMETHING unique about them that doesn't break them.
So, bring backs Wands of Fire instead of Fireballs, or something.

Brilliant energy weapons. Sounds cool, until you realize they are only effective against NPC's and PC's in armor. They are utterly useless against undead and constructs, and can't even damage a brick wall.
In Short, they are tool for NPC's to kill armored PC's, and that's it.
Revise Brilliant.

Elemental Mods on all weapons. +1d6 cold damage? Seriously? That is so underwhelming that even against Fire subtype creatures, its not worth taking.

Cloak and Boots of elvenkind. In 1E they were actually effective. Now, vanilla +5 Competence bonus. Yawn.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The 'bog standard' fighter should be able to:

Ride Well.
Jump Well.
Have excellent footwork in combat.
Lead well.
Know the job of a military man.
Know his enemies.
Have a trade to fall back on to prepare for the next fight, and at the very least fix their own gear.
Swimming and climbing would be wise to know.
If they are at sea, some idea of what goes on around a boat.
Be able to survive on their own if needed.
Be able to stay alert and spot their enemies.
Have nigh on superhuman endurance for marching and fighting.

In addition to whatever specialties he is assigned to.

That's not 2 skill points a level. Acrobatics, which is your basic footwork and ability to jump, isn't even on his class list. Nor is alertness/perception.

A Fighter has no magic. Why does a ranger, who has magic to fall back on, get 6 pts instead of 4? Because he's a 3.5 holdover where stealth and perception skills ate up 4 pts instead of 2.

a fighter goes after a different set of skills then a ranger, but saying he shouldn't be equally skilled is again a put-down of the fighter. A fighter, by all civilized measures, should be MORE skilled then the ranger.

The guy with 2 skill points should be the barb, if any of the martial classes...but I think they gave him 4 because they assumed people would dump int.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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There is nothing in a paladin's code preventing him from associating with Chaotic characters. CG is fine. The paladin will probably wince at every breaking of laws and try to prevent them, and the CG guy will probably grumble and then keep his lawbreaking out of the paladin's sight, but in the end they both want to take the BBEG down and have common ground.

His code specifically says no associating with evil.

There's a line in the sand, and adventuring alongside a LE PC is across that line.

THE OP is basically asking how he can wreck the campaign, only how can he be clever about pulling a fast one over the paladin as long as possible.

Just, no.

And, yeah, if that paladin found out this evil guy was adventuring alongside him and taking advantage of him to further his nefarious goals, I can totally see his first reaction to be a proper smiting to give the betrayal its due.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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By his code the paladin cannot adventure/associate with the LE character. There's redemption, sure, but that's an NPC mechanic. Using that as an excuse to adventure alongside someone is simply chaotic thinking and out-of-game metajustifying.

You shouldn't have a paladin in a party with an evil PC unless its a one off. You're literally asking for character conflict which is going to spill over into reality.

It's a bad idea for your game. Play the LE crazy thinks-he's-worshipping Nethys guy in the NEXT game. Then the paladin can play a Cleric of Adabar who thinks civilizing the world under one ruler is a smashing idea.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Counter argument: is the OP dickish?

because knowing there's a paladin in the group and he can't work with Evil characters, he's going ahead and making an evil character.

He knows there's going to be problems, he's even trying to find a way to circumvent it, but his 'character concept' is everything, so when it finally happens, whose fault is it going to be?

Make your character N and forget about the LE. IF he's LE, he's probably following Asmodeus on the sly, since he's out to 'save the universe' too.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Eh, low skill point classes that should have skills, like the fighter, consider it a railroad to be forced to play human, have a high int, and to spend their FCB on skill points just so they have enough to be barely functional.

Strangely, you will notice that spellcasting classes don't complain about low skill points. that's because they have spells, and/or rely on high Int anyways.

The classes without magical powers should not be forced to rely on non-class buffs just to be fair with skills. Indeed, the fighter is the most non-magical class out there, which means he should be swimming in skill points since he doesn't waste any time on magical tricks like every other class does.

==Aelryinth

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A golembane functions only against golems, not against all constructs. It will have no effect on robots whatsoever.

==Aelryinth

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