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Varisian Wanderer

Aelryinth's page

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16. RPG Superstar 6 Season Star Voter, 7 Season Star Voter. 10,095 posts (10,158 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. 1 wishlist. 1 alias.


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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Bigguyinblack wrote:
I have heard that this book allows monks to use a shield. Could someone please tell me how?

There is a feat called Unhindered Shield which makes a buckler count as completely not occupying the other arm, as if it 'isn't there', allowing monks to get Shield AC, and Greatsword Wielders as well, as well as One handed Fighters, one handed fencers, and the like.

In other words, Sword and Board just died, exactly like what happened when they introduced Improved Buckler Defense in 3.5.

==Aelryinth

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Ranishe wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

ah, ah. Fighters by default get combat feats. All the saving throw feats are GENERAL feats. So just increasing fighter's feats wouldn't solve anything in that area. :P Although I wouldn't have to spend general feats on combat feats anymore...

and the Improved Feats are so horrible I don't know how anyone can stomach taking them. :P It should at least have been one reroll for each save feat you have, instead of having to purchase 1 reroll/day for each save! Just, ugh.

==Aelryinth

That's been a thought I've that I'm going to experiment with. Basically have feats that synergise with each other. One example would be like an improved combat expertise that would let you make a free combat maneuver on a hit if a) you have the "greater" version of that combat maneuver and b) the weapon you're using has an ability relevant to that combat maneuver. So for example if you have greater trip & this feat, and hit someone with a scythe, you can attempt a free trip maneuver (as a swift action so it doesn't become absurd) as part of that hit.

That's about the only idea I've had on the matter so far, but I've yet to comb through the lot of combat feats to come up with more.

Feat Synergy is a wonderful thing, and Expertise is THE feat to showcase it...since it is supposed to represent an Intelligent Fighter.

Here's how I wrote it out.

Expertise (Combat)
You may take a penalty to hit to increase your AC, starting at -1/+1, and increasing all the way up to -6/+6 by +1/-1 every 4 levels (4th,8th, etc). This bonus from Expertise is a Dodge bonus.
You may not use Expertise at the same time as Power Attack (they are the same effect in different directions) or its variants. Any condition that denies you use of Expertise (such as Rage) also denies you use of variant Expertise bonuses and synergy for other purposes.
Fighter: Expert Defendant: You may gain the AC bonus from Expertise, Full Defense, and/or Defensive Fighting at the beginning of your turn, even if you are not engaged in combat, but you must have a melee weapon drawn/prepared and be able to attack.
Defensive Master: You may choose the amount of -/+ you gain from using Expertise, from minimum to maximum, if you desire (with DM’s approval - note the reason it is fixed is to speed combat along by not having to recalculate numbers).
Offense or Defense: You may change your base melee fighting style to be more offensively minded and less mindful of defense. When using Reckless Offensive, you take a -4 penalty to AC and gain a +2 bonus to hit (this is the opposite of Defensive Fighting).
Expert Footwork: Your number of Skill Ranks in Acrobatics is considered to be at least your Fighter level for purposes of the AC benefits for Defensive Fighting and Total Defense. At 12 Ranks/Level, the AC benefits for the Defensive Fighting/Total Defense options increase by +1 and +2 AC respectively.
Go Easy On Them: You may choose to deal non-lethal damage instead of lethal damage when attacking someone without a TH penalty.
Expertise and its bonus modifies many other Techniques.
(Mundane) Constant Expertise: You add your Expertise bonus to your Combat Maneuvers and CMD if you are not actively using it defensively. This replaces the bonus from most Improved Combat Maneuver Feats. (A light armored fighter is not considered to be actively using Expertise for his automatic AC bonus).
Bonded Expertise: If you are wielding a Defender or Guardian Named Weapon, you may gain the AC/Save bonus swap as long as the weapon is openly held unsheathed and you are not flat-footed (like TWF).

(Mundane) means you have chosen your character to not have and never have magical ability. As a result, you gain additional benefits from feats due to your greater focus on them for your strength.

And having Expertise gives minor bonuses to other techniques. For instance, Imp Initiative is increased by your Expertise bonus. Quickdraw lets you slam potions down as part of another move action, and subsumes both Rapid Reload (xbows) and Ammo Drop (slings). At level 9, a fighter with Expertise adds his Expertise to relevant skill checks dealing with matters of combat and war. Etc etc. FOr Combat Reflexes, you can use your Dex mod OR your Expertise mod for figuring # of AoO's you get.
Instead of Dex to damage, Finesse fighters can add their Expertise modifier to their damage instead. It does effectively the same thing, but keeps the focus on Str as the core damage, and the fact that the Finesse style takes an expert to really work well.

Expertise is a VERY good Technique to have IMC, and is designed to help other feats scale nicely.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Welcome to the murky world of spiked shields!

And we all thank you for not mentioning the obfuscatory disaster that is the Klar.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The role that fighters perform better then other classes is units of professional soldiers.

Warriors are like cops, city guards, and militia. Guys who might have to fight for a living.

Fighters are those that actually go out and look for fights for a living.

The large amounts of feats and reliance on particular weapons is ideal for soldiers who can use teamwork feats and are grouped in units with similar arms and armor.

Nothing exceptional, just a little more competent and tougher then a warrior. They actually get a TH/dmg class feature at level 4 vs never! Woo!

==Aelryinth

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make all spells that are not evocations take a minimum of one full round to cast (i.e. they go off at the beginning of the next turn).

Not only will you see a LOT more direct damage spells, but huge changes in how wizards act in combat. Being only able to 5' step until the beginning of your next turn, and attracting attention during a full combat round until your spell resolves will hugely change the way casters play.

Y'know, more like 1/2e.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Mad Master wrote:
Stuff.

FIrewarrior already responded to most of this, but the gist of it is, you're reading the rules wrong, and your eyes are wide shut, Mad.

First: You're right on Tree Stride, I was mistaking it for Transport Via Plants, which is effectively teleport w/o Error for Druids. Tree Stride is merely a Dimension Door equivalent for rapid escape from enemies.

You're wrong on Barkskin. I cast it, get +3 Nat AC. Touch Attacks come flying in...the fighter is JUST AS BAD OFF as I am. IF it's normal attacks, I"m Better then the fighter.
So either you always fight with touch attacks, to make us equal, or I'm better off. Period.

On MOnkeyfish: You promptly Schroedinger'd and said the fighter will have climb ranks. Unfortunately, the fighter only gets 2 base skill points, and you can't retrain your skill ranks every day. If he doesn't have climb and swim ranks, he doesn't have them, period. Whereas I can acquire them ahead of time, or by sitting down for ten minutes and filling an empty slot.
as for him being able to climb...in armor...with pitons and ropes...who exactly is putting them spikes and ropes into place?
Oh, someone who can actually CLIMB...or fly. with spells he doesn't have.

Swift spells cast in combat don't provoke AoO's and you don't have to fight defensively. You simply cannot argue that having the ability to buff before combat, even if you don't use it, is WORSE then NOT having the ability to buff before combat.
Likewise, having the ability to buff DURING combat is NEVER, EVER a WORSE option then NOT being able to buff during combat. You are ignoring the fact that if you have the option, you can maneuver to allow you to make use of it. The Fighter does NOT have the option. ANd once the buff spell goes off, the entire fight can change VERY quickly.

As for 'losing versatility once you have the spell memorized' - so what? If the situation comes up, I'm prepped. Otherwise, I'm the same as the fighter, no better, no worse. If I leave a few spell slots free, I can BECOME PREPPED with ten minutes of time.
And I don't know if you know this, but some people take it as a challenge to find creative uses for spells in many situations. They also tailor their spell layout for maximum versatility from those spells so they DO apply. There is a REASON prepped casters are considered the strongest spell casters.
Or, they play spon casters, so the spells that are useful can be cast repeatedly, giving up their ability to customize their loadout against a foe.
Or, they can SPEND MONEY to become prepped, with scrolls or wands. Let's see the fighter do that with feats. And I can cut my costs in half compared to the fighter, and don't have to take ranks in UMD if he decides to want my versatility and prep-status, too.

A fighter does NOT have the option, and doesn't have the class resources to cover that lack easily. They don't have the skill points. Their entire class resources are combat feats which don't solve the problem. They can't customize for the day, the week or the month, without spending the maximum amount of money to buy potions to dup spells others can make for 1/2 or 1/4 the price.

The fighter can only do what ANYONE can do. And he doesn't even have any class skill bonuses to make him better at his skills then someone who can just magic up a solution. You know, like rangers have skill bonuses against their FE's, or in favored terrain.
----------
Lastly, the HP issue.
Let's not bring up 1 and 2E. Those were very different games. Not only did wizards have a d4, they were restricted to +2 hp/level from Con, and after 12th, gained only 1 hp/level.

3e came along and gave casters HUGE buffs. Unlimited Con bonuses were the first. Toughness/Improved Toughness was the second. False Life and Temp Hp was the third.

To be a caster, you need one stat...Int, Wis or Cha. That's it. If you have a starting score of 15, one Int booster and you can cast all the most powerful spells in the game. You don't NEED a 30 Int. It's nice for the bonus spells, but you don't NEED it.

To do his job well, a melee character needs Str, Dex and Con, in variable order depending on build. Fighters and Rangers also need wis to buff will saves, and the Ranger for spellcasting.
A ranger has 4 skill points more a level then a fighter. That's equal to a fighter with 18 Int. A ranger doesn't need skill points normally, so they are free to invest in Wis while the Fighter scrabbles for skill points.

A wizard having more HP then a fighter is EASY. The difference per level is 2 hp! That's two points of Con and a False Life. yes, the fighter can take Toughness as a General feat, and HP as a FC. However, the fighter NEEDS skill points. A wizard does not...he's got a high Int and it's going to get higher. A wizard taking skill points for FC is basically rather useless...he's going to invest in them with his class, and he's going to BUY them with an Int headband. He's better off getting less squishy. A fighter is much more likely to invest in, say, Iron Will to bolster his crappy Will save, then Toughness. He's already got tons of HP, after all.

In short, a wizard investing an extra point or two in starting Con, buying the Toughness feat, and using his FC benefit for extra HP while casting False Life is totally and completely reasonable, and will result in a caster with more HP then a fighter who does NOT specifically invest in his HP.
Let's not even get into classes like a Summoner, who doesn't need to get his casting stat higher then 16, and can just pump Con to the moon. Ditto orcish Witch Doctors with Con as a casting Stat.

Seriously, the starting Feat for Wizards tends to be either Improved Init or Toughness, in my recent experience, and FC to more HP. Con is usually the second most important stat, followed by dex, and so equal to the average fighter.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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It's being ignored because most reasonable people think the argument over the word is dumb. Extracts are obviously drinkable and are potables, and devolving into minutiae over English is one of the first signs your argument has failed.

So, we've kinda been ignoring it. No offense.

==Aelryinth

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:


And I've repeatedly said, it's a good house rule, AND it can be overcome just by sticking adamantine guantlets on the golem.

It's just not in the core rules. And trying to rules lawyer that it IS by inferring things that are not stated is really bad form.

The fact is, I agree with you, I think it is dumb, and it should be errata'd, but that's not what the rules are. And at my table, that's how I'd rule it. At a PFS table, I'd follow the rules.

==Aelryinth

Its not a house rule. The mistake you're making is the assumption of perfection. You're assuming that the rules are perfect in what they say and can only be read one way, and don't contradict.

You have an argument that the rules say that the golem doesn't get through the DR. It does not matter how good that argument is if there are better arguments going the other way. And boy, are there ever better arguments going the other way. The adamantine golem getting through DR is not only an interpretation of existing rules, its a good enough interpretation to be the rule.

Unfortunately, it IS a house rule. Because the fact is, the ability should be in its stat block, and is not.

That's the absolute RAW. Everything else you are arguing is conjecture. It is 'common sense'. But it is not a rule.

And none of the rules you've quoted support your position:
Golems are creatures, not objects.
The golem itself is not made primarily of adamantium.
Material punching DR is not a universal monster ability that applies to the Golem, unlike DR/Alignment.

Conjecture like "I think they concentrated the Adamantine in its fists" is conjecture. I think they put the adamantine towards its skeleton, to give it great strength, and its natural armor, to give it defense and DR.
Neither is written, neither applies.

Is there a rule that says if a material is mentioned in a monster's description, that it ignores DR of that material?
No.
Is there a rule that says if a monster is of the golem subtype, and a material is included in its construction, that it ignores that DR type?
No.
If a creature ignores a certain type of DR, is that listed in its statblock, or associated universal monster abilities?
Yes.
Does the adamantine golem have that language?
No. The nitwits.

Your whole argument is "Well, it just MAKES PERFECT SENSE." Which is a GREAT argument, because it does, and would apply at my table, but it's not the rules.

FAQ it. Get it errata'd. It's a DUMB absence of a rule, I freely admit it! But it is the way it is.

==Aelryinth

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Claxon, that ruling is directed at stats. I.e. two abilities that grant Charisma to saves do not stack, unless they grant different bonuses (i.e. one typeless, one a resistance bonus).

The Defender ruling just irked me.

==Aelryinth

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It gets worse when you realize that they ruled that Defender bonuses have the language 'stack with all other bonuses', and so stack with other Defender bonuses!

==Aelryinth

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or backpack. Note bags are actually rather heavy, loaded or not, and wearing them at the belt is probably not good.

I mean, if you want to carry coins, a Quiver of Holding, or whatever they call it now, is much better. just stick them in hollow staves.

==Aelryinth

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Actually, TOZ, that example IS bad and has been overruled.

Because, in the Paizo universe, if you wear Bracers of Armor and magic armor, only the power of the stronger armor bonus applies, and the other one is COMPLETELY SUPPRESSED.

In 3.5, you could wear Bracers of Armor and Magic armor, and it was a GOOD IDEA...because it gave you a good AC against incorporeal touch attacks. Also, you could add +5 worth of armor abilities into the bracers, and get some extra armor effects on the cheap (stack them on +1 bracers).

This is completely impossible in PF, because either the bracers or the armor is rendered completely inert, including all secondary abilities.

==Aelryinth

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CBDunkerson wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
Having DR 15/epic only allows them to bypass epic DR. It doesn't allow them to bypass other DR.

The CRB writeup on DR says;

Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment.

The attached table then shows a +4 equivalent weapon bonus as sufficient to bypass adamantine DR.

The Bestiary writeup on DR then says;
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

+6 > +4. Ergo, natural weapon attacks of creatures with epic DR bypass adamantine DR.

Quote:
Can you point to the rule that says having DR 15/adamantine makes their weapons able to bypass adamantine DR?

Yes, if we accept that Adamantine Golems have adamantine DR because they are mostly made of adamantine. At which point... adamantine weapons bypass adamantine DR. From the same Bestiary entry linked above;

"Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage. Others are vulnerable to certain materials, such as adamantine, alchemical silver, or cold-forged iron."

The 'overcoming DR' table is based on Enhancement bonus, not equivalents, as was mentioned earlier in the thread.

You need a +4 weapon to punch adamantine...or, in this case, a +2 Construct Bane weapon, which is +4 equivalent.

A +1 Holy Flaming sword, which is +4 equivalent, does not punch cold iron, silver or adamantine DR. Or Lawful, for that matter.

The OLD Epic rules, which is what you are looking at, specifically state you need a weapon with a +6 weapon to punch Epic DR...in other words, Epic Weapons, OR mundane +4/+5 weapons with an appropriate Bane.

The NEW Epic weapons introduced a completely new mechanic, that 'epic weapons', which is ANY weapon enhanced to the total of +6 of abilities, will punch Epic DR. Since Epic DR is just a heavier version of x/Magic, this actually makes some sense. The Epic exclusivity of 'beyond mortal' has now been taken over by Mythic in Paizo.

So, no, having Epic DR doesn't automatically punch through ANYTHING but DR / Epic or Magic. Never has, never will. You are reading far too much into the ability.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Mad Master wrote:

Again, I notice that you guys cannot see the inherent disadvantages of some presumed perfect class abilities, especially spells.

Spells, for example, have a lot of hindrances: You have to know them, you have to prepare them, you have to successfully cast them, they have to succeed (hit, avoid SR, ST has to fail, no hard counters in place), they have to last enough, etc.
If some day you prepare some spells, you will not have access to all the other spells you know, especially if you are a divine caster, which has difficulties being flexible in preparing spells.
Wands and such can be useful, but you have to find or craft them and if the spell has effects based on CL or a save, it's at its minimum. Also, while in combat, you have to drag out the wand you want to use, cast the spell and then put the wand away or drop it, which means you lose actions and maybe run the risk of causing AoO. And wands can be disarmed, stolen or sundered too.

And no, if you have few slots, you do not have access to all your spells. You have only access to the few you can place into those equally few slots, and that's it. It doesn't matter what you can put into those slots tomorrow if today you die because you have made the wrong choices when preparing spells at the required time.
And if you as a combatant rely on your spells to fight better, that choice is always a hard one to make, since you cannot be sure of what you'll really need that day (especially with me as a DM).

And if you are a wizard, you have other kinds of problems, such as carrying around all the books you need to have access to your full repertoire, all the scrolls, wands, trinkets with your extra spells, all the components you need (especially the costly ones), while probably using Str as a dump stat, which means you'll probably won't be able to carry much.

No matter how many spells you can put together between slots and cheap magical objects: every choice you make will negate other choices, so you will be only ready for some dangers and not for the...

Mad, I don't mean to be condescending, but have you kept up with the game?

First of all, buff spells...you either cast them before combat, or cast them when not threatened.
SWIFT spells...not an issue. Unless you are ALREADY in the middle of a fight, you just get them off and proceed with your turn as normal.
Instant Enemy is a Swift Spell. It's nigh impossible for an enemey to interrupt it. You can cast it before they threaten you, or after you kill them to do the next one, etc.

Preparing spells is always a balance, sure. But YOU control the balance. Ifyou want to be a skill monkey today, you are. If you want combat spells today, you have them. If you want to travel halfway across the continent, youd o that instead.
So they are 1/day abilities that YOU GET TO PICK. That's incredibly awesome and versatile. And, like Instant Enemy, can be incredibly powerful at the right moment.

Divine casters have far more flexibility in spells then arcane casters, because they don't have to maintain a spellbook. They always have access to the full list, without spending a dime. I'm not sure where this belief of yours comes from.
Divine casters can also leave open slots, to be filled in later if there is a need for them. Flexibility on demand, if desired.

What you're trying to argue is "Just having spells doesn't mean you're better off" and then you make poor examples, because 'Having spells means they might/can/probably will come in handy if I want them to.'
"Unexpected things happening which totally nerf my spellcasting" is NOT a friendly game. Truly, can you present to me a situation where having Barkskin up is NOT better then having no Nat AC option at ALL? either you're on par, or you're better off then the slob who is not a caster.

Example: We're going climbing today. I learn Monkeyfish. We may or may not actually climb. But Mr. Fighter over there with no climb or swim ranks doesn't have the option, does he?
We need to get to city X fast. I memorize Tree Walk. Mr. Fighter travels a week overland to do the same thing as I do taking ten steps.
I have those options. He doesn't. Unless you specifically go out of the way to make sure my spellcasting can't do jack, I will always have more resources and options then a non-caster.
Spellcasting is STRONG.

As for wands...wands are not used in combat. Wands are used before and after combat, OR for spells that don't deal with saves...like, say, HASTE for my guys. Instant Enemy in a wand can be a before combat buff, or a buff taken in the middle of a fight as you move into position next round.
I.e. wands are there to solve the slot problem. If you are saying they are worthless...then potions and scrolls are worth even less, because they take up more room, or cost more, each one has to be drawn independently, and are more fragile.

As for spells and books and stuff - hey, sorry, we talk the core campaign here, which assumes you can buy the core spells you want fairly easily. As soon as you deviate from that, you're into House Rules.

Secondly...weight of books? Hello? The mage will need one book until level 5, at which point he can make or buy a Blessed Book, and that is the ONLY spellbook he has to have, and it's no heavier then a normal hardback at one of our bookstores.

lastly, making magic items: You may not be aware of the rules changes on this, but you don't need 8 hours to make something that's not worth 1000 gp. It's now pro-rated. I think you can only work on one object a day, however.
Secondly, you can easily work on stuff on the road, at half the pace (i.e. you get 4 hours a day, taking twice as long.). Now, look at the costs of things like level 1 wands, scrolls, and potions. Yeah, you can pump out a CLW wand every 2 days, and make scrolls of level 3 or less, and potions of level 2 or less, every single day. If you want to make a permanent item, you can still do it, it just takes you twice as long...but 4 hours a day is a lot more then NO hours a day, right?

:P

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Yeah, the urogue gets a 'reverse boost', by inflicting injury on enemies. He just has to hit with his first attack, and he's not THAt bad with those (although Swords of Subtlety help tons).

===Aelryinth

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Actually, celestial mail and celestial full plate are your max dex to AC, and mithril versions of them 2 pts higher.

Celestial Mail is chainmail (+6 AC) with a dex max of +8, for +14 AC, 2 pts higher then Mithral plate.

The key thing for Dex to AC is that it dovetails with dex to hit, dex to damage, is touch ac, and means you have light/no armor, which means maximum movement, AND maxes out your reflex save (str affects no saves, AND Dex is useful with Evasion), in addition to initiative and Stealth and Acrobatics. It also determines your archery to hit, so you're better with missiles...and the TH for missiles is more important then the Str bonus.

All of those are extremely important in their own way. You don't have to dump Str to be effective as a Dex fighter. You just have to emphasize and boost Dex, which increases quite quickly if you do.

As for the other skills...Str boosts even fewer skills then Dex does, and they are even less relevant (climb and swim). Basically, Str gives you TH, DMG, and carry stuff. That's it. If you can get TH and DMg from another stat, and still be able to carry stuff, Str becomes less and less important.

The only saving grace for Str is the exclusive 2h dmg bonus it gets. For any other builds, such as sword and board, 2W, open hand, or one hand, Dex to damage is quite arguably a better all around way to go, if the cost isn't steep.

Mithril full plate also costs 10,500 gp, BEFORE magic. That's a set of +3 armor all by itself...and more expensive then a Haversack. And you still will have slower move.

Basically a Dex build should keep a 13 Str to qualify for Power Attack, and basically that's all that is needed. Dumping down to 10 or 8 or something probably isn't worth the carrying hassle...and that's only if the DM is tracking your loads.

==Aelryinth

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DR 15/Magic, if it's allowed to work. But magic DR is SU and suppressed in an AM Field.

==Aelryinth

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Polymorph Any Other some green slime into armadillos adn chuck them at the dragon, aye, that would work.

ITemized Lava turned into paper, wrapped up into dense scroll tubes adn chucked at it would be effective, too.

For both, you better get rid of it all before the dragon gets close to you, however...

===Aelryinth

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Tacticslion wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
As an aside, a Lantern Archon's light rays are Ex. They can go through almost anything, yet fail to hurt the Incorporeal shadow because they're not magical.
This is fascinating! I didn't realize that! Thanks!

Lantern Archons being summoned has been known as 'Golembane' for some time now.

Note that CALLED, as opposed to Summoned creatures are not hedged out by the AMF. So you could Call up something big and ask it to fight the dragon on your behalf.

an evil party using some very large monsters to make enhanced undead is another alternative.

As you saw, the biggest thing the AMF does to melees is not its DR, it's making it HARD TO HIT. Losing stat bonuses, weapon bonuses, and combat buffs is a huge TH penalty for a high level melee to overcome (-8 TH or more).

Note that a Melee who can stay out of range of the AMF, such as an Enlarged One with a Reach Weapon, could still attack it and keep some bonuses. Vital Strike might be reasonable to use in such a case.

Lastly, alchemical bombs. In the AMF, clusters of alchemical items are still perfectly useful, they aren't magical. Something crazy like polymorhping clusters of ten alchemical frost bottles into thrown rocks and tossing them at the dragon would work fine. They hit the AMF, revert to vials, and smash against his touch AC for 10-60 cold damage. Repeat a dozen times and its dead.
If the whole party does this, its likely dead in one round. Cost you time and a little money, but easy enough to do.
Note: I use 10d6 as the limit because normal fires max out their damage at 10d6, and normal acids max theirs at the same with Immersion damage at 10d6. Magical stuff can get up to 20d6, but alchemy isn't magical.

So...barrels of alchemical stuff and lantern archons, I guess, and Created corporeal undead.

==Aelryinth

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Statistically speaking from a defensive standpoint, the extra AC and movement you'd get from wearing mithril is more valuable to you then getting adamantine, especially since the DR doesn't stack.

Really, the armor you want is Celestial, because it gives +4 to Dex bonus...or Mithral Celestial, if your DM will allow it.

As to your other question...yes, it would be better to spend the money on the 20% miss chance of the cloak then get the non-stacking DR. Nothing like changing a crit into a miss, vs taking off 3 pts dmg from it.

==Aelryinth

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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Alleran wrote:

while Wonder Woman and J'onn didn't have secret identities at all.

True for the Perez reboot of Wonder Woman as Diana, who's not that fond of the "Wonder Woman" title slapped on her by the press. J"onn however would frequently desguise himself as a couple of different human apperances that would go by the name John Jones. He did not however invest in them the way Kal-El did in maintaining his Clark Kent Persona, as they would be temporary "slumming" guises.

Actually if you read the JLA during the epic run, you'd know that J'Onn has both civilian and heroic identities in multiple countries around the world, often as intellectuals famous in those countries (and of both genders). In his multiple identities as a whole, he's probably more recognized then Superman.

==Aelryinth

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Actually it would be Profession (merchant) for running a business. Your Craft check would be about the quality level of goods you can make, and how fast you can make them. THe profession side would be about buying and selling stuff to make a profit for your business.

Basically, the Business Manager will employ the Crafter, or be employed by the crafter to help sell their goods i.e. front of the store, back of the store.

There really aren't many things that translate into both Craft AND Profession, but there's one that also includes Perform.

Painting.

Craft (painting) is about artistic painting of an object, commissioned or otherwise, generally including things like landscapes or portraits with your services being sold for money.

Profession (painter) is not about art. It's about slapping on massive amounts of paint on something with skill and speed...house painters and industrial painters, a COMPLETELY different skill set then Crafting a painting. A fellow down the road did this for thirty years at the local factory.

And of course you have Performance (Painting), where the act of creation can be more important then the painting itself. Street painters using spray cans and common implements into speed paintings they can sell for money would be an example of this. The paintings may or may not have artistic value, but I own a planetscape made like this, and every time I look at it I remember the street artist in Boston who made it in about 15 minutes. It's not RPG quality, but so what?

==Aelryinth

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on google drive, there are three documents:

The first is the fighter philosophy document, which analyzes the fighter, conveys what I think a fighter should do, and my mindset when creating one.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Q5kojmrb9JeVdZSkpBUXhVc3c/view?usp=shari ng

The one where I set up my fighter level by level, and then introduce a slew of techniques to use with him, is:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Q5kojmrb9JcURwRGVneHpQZzA/view?usp=shari ng

A new Rogue Variant is here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Q5kojmrb9JTWNxMl9CM09fUWc/view?usp=shari ng

Wherein I return the Rogue to the very best of all skill monkeys, in ALL skills, and design a 'magic rogue' to replace the skill monkey function of the rogue, as well.

==Aelryinth

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FYI, the 'Answer to Life, the Universe, and everything' is 42. The 'Question to Life, the Universe, and Everything' is unknown.

Spoiler:
The planet Earth was designed as the ultimate supercomputer by the white mice to figure out the Question (the computer built to figure out the Answer helped design it), but certain other forces that feared the universe might collapse bulldozed Earth to make way for a hyperspace highway seconds before it was figured out.

No worries, the dolphins made us another planet and moved all the humans across to it, so nobody realizes what really happened here.

==Aelryinth

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you are aware that by giving every fighter all feats you basically make every fighter the same, sans archetype, right?

Nobody believes fighters should have all feats all the time. Nobody believes fighters should have more skill points then rogues.

Fighters need magic defenses.
Fighters need movement options.
Fighters need recovery and/or immunity options.
Fighters need MORe skill points, and some bonuses to go with class skills.
Fighters need some versatility in and out of combat. Martial Flexibility is a good one, letting them go dumpster diving for feats.
Fighters need to have a combat bonus at level 1.

If fighters have to burn feats to acquire these things, instead of class abilities, then fighters need a LOT more feats.

Note: Advanced Weapon Training effectively let fighters exchange 3 Weapon Trainings for AWT feats, which are demonstrably better then normal feats. Paizo is learning.

My own fighter remix gives fighters a Combat Technique and a Training Technique at ever level, in addition to class abilities at every level that are not mere scaling effects. It still isn't overpowered, but is a LOT more versatile.

==Aelryinth

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The alchemist player would argue that it's simply the equivalent of the warpriest's ability to cast buff spells as swift actions at level 1, PDK.

==Aelryinth

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Paizo makes no errors and RAW is god. Remember that!

==Aelryinth

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HyperMissingno wrote:
If you're going to remove the iterative penalty then give more easy ways to get bonuses to AC. Once you hit level 10 if you don't dedicate everything to AC then every attack is going to hit unless it's iterative attack or the opponent is blinded. I'd rather not be hit by every single attack in normal situations.

This is true from the PC side.

It is generally assumed that by level 10 a Melee's primary attack will hit 100% of the time. Note it is NOT assumed that all monsters will. You don't need to put gonzo money into AC if you just follow the most money-efficient way. Certain classes have an advantage here, of course.

Diffian, Iterative attacks are not dumb. They are simply a way of giving you additional things to do while increasing your damage at an acceptable pace. If your primary attack hits at 100%, it is assumed that your approximate following damage is 75%, 50% and 25%, for a 250% damage increase over time.

This is exactly the same as 1 and 2E's 1, 3/2, 2 and 5/2 attacks system, EXCEPT...in PF you can't move and attack. However, getting 2 attacks this round and 1 round the next annoyed people, so they simply averaged it out within one round.

You could more easily duplicate it by giving primary attack at full, and all iteratives at -5 TH, with a maximum of 2 extra attacks. That would put you at 250% dmg, right where you are at now.

==Aelryinth

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It's best not to think of specific spells and go towards specific effects.

Evocation spells are nasty, but highly visible, unsubtle, easy to fight and blame.

THe spells that cause real trouble are those that are intrigue based. These include many divinations, any form of dimensional travel, summonings, and enchantment/charm magic.

Divinations allow things to be found out which you don't want others to know. This includes both noble and state secrets. Thus, blocking divination spells over level 1 is highly advisable for any city. that allows detection of evil, magic, disease, poison, and a bunch of useful effects, without allowing esp and scrying in any form.

Precedent: 1e Censer of Thaumaturgy, within its area of effect, if lit by a non-caster, no magic that cannot be cast by a level caster can take effect.

Dimensional magicks are military disasters waiting to happen. From alien beings summoning in helpers, to criminals teleporting away to escape justice, to lack of border controls and awareness, to infiltration by ethereal spies and incorporeal foes, to dimensional containers hiding goods to aid smuggling and avoid taxes, dimensional magic is a total headache.

Precedent: The Weirdstone from 2e's Volo's guide to all things magical made dimensional spells and magic impossible within the 1 mile area of effect. Extend it to magic items and you have an ideal city-wide protection. Forbiddance and Proofs against teleportation also exist as spells.
keeping out supernatural creatures can be done with something as simple as a Circle of Protection executed around the city, making entry in the city nigh impossible.

Flying magic would basically render conventional protections irrelevant. The amount of powerful monsters that can fly would be as dangerous as those that can teleport. Magic that stops unnatural flight would by a by word for defense on any township...and if they are serious, against any creature with burrowing or earthglide, as well.

Wingbind and other spells have existed which brought down flying creatures. Make them lower level spells, and you're good.

Enchantment/Charm spells will destroy a society from within, especially if used against the leaders and wealthy of a society. A citywide Prot/Evil variant would effectively neutralize all charms magic and effectively prevent them from manifesting. Simply banning the entire school of magic via city wide wards will likely not get much opposition.

Illusions themselves are not immediately harmful, but fall into misusable spells. The best defense against them is simple mass area spells which react to active magic, as such are buff spells and rely on durations. If all active spells are effectively surrounded by a faint faerie fire, ala Continual Faerie Fire, the usefulness of invisibility, illusions and transformative spells to misdirect and be abused is severely curtailed, and someone walking around under the aegis of multiple spells is going to stand out like a lightbulb.

Necromantic spells will probably simply be outlawed, and those who mess with the dead hunted like dogs. However, the best defense against these is simply to make easy and free complete disposal of bodies. This could be anything from a permanent wall of fire to a disintegration bin that doubles as the city's junkyard and sewage disposal. With no corpses, legions of undead aren't going to be made, and necromantic attack spells are no worse then evocations when it comes down to it (if creepier).

The option of complete non-casting except in the hands of permitted individuals is also entirely possible. The 1/2E spell Spell Engine did exactly this. Within its area of effect, no spellcasting or magic item activation was possible, and the spell was permanent unless the center was hit by a magical item, destroying both. It cost nothing to set up and had a wide area of effect. Casting multiples of them to blanket the town basically shuts down all spellcasters...and even has the nice side effect of helping people sleep and regain spells more easily.
Couple this with a magic item attuned to each spell engine that, for instance, generates 12 rings every day which can be worn to give immunity to that Engine's effects, and last until the next morning. You have basically a thief-proof system of only allowing permitted casters to wield magic in specific Engine zones.

Lastly, you have the Faerun alternative of a citywide dead magic or anti-magic zone, effectively turning most of the place into a caster-free zone, and keeping many non-magical creatures at bay. Like PF's Alkenstar, this would spur alchemical and technological solutions to things that are normally solved by magic. It would also have the odd effect that only non-casters could make magic items via the Magical Artisan feat, since they don't actually have to be able to cast spells to make magic items.

Note that in a town with no casters, non-casting classes with high skills will wield great power. Rogues, for example, will come into their own, and martial classes will definitely prosper. Feats that have damaging spells do subdual damage will be VERY popular to get around damage to civilians.

There is precedent for magical items that forbid certain schools of magic activating in areas. FR had an artifact that did this on a very wide scale, sundered into multiple parts. Wardspells could deny the functioning of certain spells in their area of effect, as well (from the Complete Volo's series).

==Aelryinth

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Gronka wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
The quote may be Jacobs, but between the design choices we've seen in Pathfinder and everything SKR revealed after leaving the company, the sentiment seems to apply to at least some of the people in the design team as well.

... that must be why rogues and monks were strengthened, summoners were weakened, theres is a whole chapter of a RPG-line hardcover about weakening mages, a system that you can give martials to make them abit more powerful for free, the weaker spellcasters in occult adventures, and they've started making more powerful feats for fighters like the bravery feats in Ultimate Intrigue...

The design team seems aware of the issue to me. Whether or not they have always agreed, I cannot say, but recent materials seem to indicate they are taking more action (YMMV on whether currently level of the action is enough of course).

this is my take on the whole balance of power (it will take a couple of points, so bear with me):

In pathfinder, fights are over many times in a couple of rounds.

In 2nd edition, bad guys had a LOT more hp compared to the amount of damage characters could deal, and there weren't that many ways of upping damage (this isn't saying that 2nd ed was balanced; it had issues).

Spellcasting resources were much more limited (1 or 2 spells at 1st level). The most reliable steady damage had to come from a fighter or similar beating the crap out of guys. The best way a wizard could use his one spell was to make the fighter hit things better, or help the fighter get to the bad guys or whatever else.

In pathfinder, all wizards will start out with at least 3 spells per day, plus usually some other source of magical damage. Sorcerers will start with 6. It's now possible to make a spellcaster that just blasts.

Let's take an encounter at level 4 for an example. In 2nd ed, this could mean 3 orogs (15 hp) and 3 orcs (5 hp). A level 4 2 handed fighter would do possibly 1d10+2 (and there was no cleave back...

Ahem.

The highest level 2nd level spell was Aganazzar's Scorcher, which you are forgiven for not knowing because it was a Realms spell. 2-16 dmg/rd for 1 rd/level.

But! for your orog encounter...the wizard would simply cast sleep and take out the orcs and 1-2 orogs instantly. Or web them all and kill them easily. Or stinking cloud them all and wipe them out while they were helpless.
There was a Firecube spell from FR as well, but 5' radius and 4d4 probably wouldn't do the job. Flame Arrow would do 4d6, but would only hit one of them. You picked an inconvenient level for damage spells, because next level the wizard casts fireball and they all die to avg 17 dmg and needing a 16 or 19 to save.
=====
Actually, in 1e, melees did much more dmg/health of their opponents per swing. No Con bonus, big str bonuses, and the fact swords did extra dmg against size L creatures were a thing. It was also much easier to hit them reliably.

In 2e, the same applied...BUT, they added a whole slew of higher HD monsters (i.e. taking dragons up to 20 HD and stuff). That's skewing your perceptions. A 7hd monster in 2e was just as vulnerable to a fighter as it was in 1e. Now, they gave Giants +4 HD and AC to give them another round of staying power, and did much the same with dragons and age levels, and definitely to fiends and stuff. But there were still very few creatures that got to the 100 HP range, and a high level fighter in 2e could 1-2 round solo 95% of the creatures in the game with a decent set of gear.

Melee characters got WORSE in 3e because they gave con bonuses to monsters, which doubled and tripled hit points easily, raised armor classes to the stratosphere (AC -10 (30) for Lolth was superseded by -11 (31) in 2e for Great Wyrm dragons (From the original max of -2 (22) for Dragons)...before buffs!...and those AC's are now 40+!) and they took the multiple attacks of melees, gave them to everyone, and then made it so you needed to not move to actually do your best damage, which drastically lowers your over-time Damage/rd.

They did the exact opposite with spellcasters, allowing them to move and do full damage, and made more spells more effective with level, instead of less effective (saving throws meant save or suck spells, well, sucked at high levels, because the monsters saved).

On a pure ratio of every combat, melees were a much better damage output threat in 1 and 2E then in 3e and PF.

And then you add in how strong things like Giant Slayers and Dragon Slaying weapons were (the forerunners of Bane weapons) and yeah, melees got hosed good.

==Aelryinth

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There is a Hellknight order involved in the Emerald Spire, but I don't remember which one it is. The one where the leader's daughter despises wizards, believing sorcerors and their bloodlines are the chosen arcane casters of the gods.

==Aelryinth

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Snowlilly wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:

What are the rules for blocking, with a weapon. You are trying to stop someone from going around you. Since you step right in front of them, they have to stop and fight you. Then you are defending with the weapon. It's different if they succeeded at their tumble. If a PC tried to attack a demon summoner without fighting their summoned demon using a defending pitchfork, the GM wouldn't allow it. Not without tumble.

More then likely, it's a mistake and oversight on the part of the archetype designer, since you can't apply the property to a non-melee weapon. Note that including it is an illegal choice...like including unholy for a paladin would be, for example.

This ability can only be placed on melee weapons.

says right in the defending property. That's not specific overrides general, that's an outright illegal error. Most likely they copied the list over the magus bladebond, and didn't cross check it.

==Aelryinth

Got to love it when the response is "The RAW is wrong."

There's no real answer to that, we'll all just errata our books to comply with your sense of right/wrong.

Gisher wrote:
That said, there is a similar issue with both Vicious and Spell Storing. If the list is correct then the Spellslinger gets to apply three melee-only special abilities to his firearm. I'm not at all sure how those abilities gets activated, unless firearms can also function as melee weapons. I don't play in games with firearms, so I'm really unfamiliar with their rules.
None of the properties specify a melee attack must be used.

And I love it when the rules specifically state that you can't do something, and someone says it ain't RAW.

Illegal enchantment on a non-melee weapon is illegal. IN other words, he'd throw it on his gun, and it would fail to work.

As for not working...now you're trying for a corner case argument. If you throw a Defending dagger, do you still get the AC bonus for the round?

It's also noteworthy that there's an outright error in the ability that makes it legal:
----------------------------
With that weapon bonus the spellslinger can apply any of the following to his arcane bond: enhancement bonuses (up to +5) and dancing, defending, distance, flaming, flaming burst, frost, ghost touch, icy burst, merciful, seeking, shock, shocking burst, spell storing, thundering, vicious, and wounding.
------------------
The error, of course, is that the wizard doesn't have an arcane bond. An arcane bond can be to a weapon, which is normally a dagger or staff (melee weapon), and would make the ability legal for those weapons.

The mage's arcane gun replaces arcane bond.

So, what you have there is a class ability with FOUR different errors in it.
Still going to argue RAW? Because as it stands, the archetype can't imbue abilities into anything, cause he ain't got nothing arcane bonded.

i.e. typos and rules-checking are real things.

==Aelryinth

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It's feasible from the point of knighthoods needing to make money.

Someone has to be paying/sponsoring the Orders. Are they collecting taxes? Then they ARE the government. Is the government paying the order a stipend? Then they are an arm of the government. Are they open to missions from the highest bidder? Then they are open mercenaries. Are they employed by wealthy folk to solve problems within the confines of their codes? Then they are professional specialists/experts being hired as sees fit.

The Cheliax government probably pays almost all the Orders a retainer fee, which by their lawful nature would forbid them from taking up arms against it in rebellion...refusing the stipend would be tantamount to refusing the authority of the government, and a clear warning sign. Orders that toe the party line and serve enthusiastically likewise get more money.

Likewise, local nobles probably pay them a retainer to act as arms of the law and to make sure the orders don't rebel against them, and are open to their requests.

On top of this, the knights probably hire out anything from individuals to companies to deal with specific problems that fall within their purview, basically acting as specialty mercenaries that can be easily found and relied upon...just like knights of old.

And on top of that, the areas around the fortresses of the knights have likely been given unto them to manage and collect taxes, so entirely likely they are the government and collect taxes and set the laws in their own domains.

Note that the reason Hellknights exist is because of their overbearingly Lawful, monastic, somewhat fanatical mindset. There is no way the government could afford to pay such skilled martial combatants what they are actually worth, nor train up an identical force of such size. By simply paying retainers, and then bonus funds when actually needing their muscle, their costs are dispersed over time and many patrons, obviating the need for larger standing armies.

i.e. in other words, by taking the money that would normally be paid to secular, loyal troops, the Hellknights actually make open conflict harder. The only problem here is that Hellknights will also fight amongst themselves, which entirely defeats the original purpose for which they exist.

==Aelryinth

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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Fergie wrote:
This is designed to limit the real culprits of imbalance, the high stat casters.
Arguably the most powerful are the summon-based builds - which that rule does almost nothing to weaken.

Summons aren't necessarily the most powerful...they are the most versatile and make it easy to replace the party muscle/melees.

A high Stat SAD caster that can take 3 feats, buff a save DC to the moon, and basically auto-kill every encounter...that's real power. In addition to getting bonus spells. DC 34 Flesh to Stone spells can just ruin any DM's plans, you know?

==Aelryinth

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I'm suprised Ashiel hasn't chimed in on Stunning Assault and Dazing Assault. He's found them amongst the most powerful feats you can take at higher levels, especially with condition infliction, as I remember his earlier threads.

==Aelryinth

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Yeah, but you can't base its usefulness on class ability. IF it's so cheap and easy to acquire with class levels, it should be cheap and easy to get money wise.

i.e. making it a good option for a paladin and all those other combos, and a stupid option for a fighter, is bad.

Also, you can't put Defender on a Gun, because it works on melee attack rolls only. Unless you're going to pistol whip them, i suppose.

==Aelryinth

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Um, you CAN choose to Daze on command.

Dazing Assault. They get a save, but dazing is even better then staggered.

The -5 to hit hurts, but basically means don't power attack on that swing.

==Aelryinth

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Cost is a real factor.

Change Defending to a +2-4k GP ability for a weapon and it would suddenly seem much more reasonable.

==Aelryinth

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You should differentiate between 'martials' and 'fighters', as the latter is a very specific class. Not being able to move and full attack is a problem for all martial classes, not just fighters.

For fighters specifically, the easiest thing to work with is Armor Training, since it already includes a movement component.

Giving a fighter +5' movement per Armor Training would take care of some of his movement rate problems, and he'd eventually be faster then a barbarian.

Expanding his 5' step to that speed bonus (meaning 10' at AT 2, 15' at AT 3) would be a logical add on, and again rewards a higher level fighter instead of making a dip.

The issue of martials getting more attacks or damage on a standard action is problematic because then you have to give the same thing to monsters, and pounce becomes much less strong. It really can turn the game into a rocket tag of who gets to move first.

5e addresses the problem by making multiple attacks a class feature (like it used to be) instead of an automatic thing with BAB...something I would prefer they go back to. I have NO problems with clerics never getting a second swing without using magic or TWF. Multiple attacks is a martial thing, as clearly as spellcasting is a caster thing.

However, if you do this, you have to reduce the numbers of attacks down. 4 iterative attacks amounts to about 250% dmg...which is the equivalent of 5/2 attacks, just like a 1e high level spec fighter. Granting another full BAB attack is 200% dmg...a big boost, and nearly as good as 4 iteratives by itself, while 3 attacks is 300%...clearly better! The 3/2 and 5/2 system was a bit wonky, but it was BALANCED that way.

A separate way of looking at the issue is to look at a full attack as a BONUS opportunity, and single attacks as the 'norm', just like spellcasting. Instead of more attacks, grant a bonus TH, AC, Dmg or Saves when taking the melee full attack action...you are giving up movement in order to focus on some other aspect of combat. This moderates the line between standard action and full attack considerably...right now, the scale is tilted so far to full attack it isn't funny.

A second way is to award Vital Strike to martials, and advance it by levels. This increases their mobile damage and draws the gap with a full attack closer. TOZ recommends this be done with fixed dmg dice, and I'll tend to agree...it effectively becomes 'skirmish combat damage', like the Scout archetype gets.

You could then do something like "A fighter adds his weapon spec and weapon training to each level of his vital strike damage", a cavaliar adds his challenge dmg to each level, a Barb adds his Rage bonus to Str to each level" and so on and so forth. Thus you get an ever scaling bonus to dmg that a non-martial class cannot hope to equal.

lastly, you should probably put your foot down and nerf missile combat to some extent. Most games don't allow missile combat to outdamage melee combat...you can swing a sword much faster then you can shoot a bow. Missile combat has the rather unfair advantage of being, well, at range, and keeping you completely safe, while being able to unload full attacks frequently, and not being inferior in damage to melee weapons at all. The risk you take with melee weapons by being in combat range is that you can deal out more damage to the enemy. So, missile weapons should have a maximum number of iteratives that you can execute with them, to rein them in and offset their safety advantages.

I'd probably go with max 2 attacks for bows, 1 for xbows, and if you want more, spend feats for rapid shot and Manyshot. This also mirrored 1 and 2e, and exchanging dmg for the safety of ranged combat is a decent tradeoff.

==Aelryinth

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Just a note: Remember to apply the distance modifiers of +2/10 feet on perception checks.

Also note that sight is affected by illumination. Unless everyone is trotting around with Darkvision, toting around a light source should have other implications...and you can't take 10 while distracted or in combat.

It should also be noted that one of the best ways to use traps is to have the enemy trigger them, not wait for the party to see them.

And if his Perception shuts down invisible enemies...he invested more into it then the enemy from a cast spell or potion did.

==Aelryinth

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I have to say, if I was immune to poison, and the GM then made up a poison I was not immune to, and THEN had me immune to the antidote 'because' of my poison immunity...I'd rip up my character in front of his face, drop the remnants on his head, walk out, and never look back.

*&^(&^ his story hour. He can slap himself on the back all he likes for 'trumping' me. If he can't find a story that doesn't deal with )*^)&*^ me over on my one strong point, there's a place he can go that's warm enough for him.

==Aelryinth

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Um, read the iconic backstory for the Vigilante. He's the Red Raven. The investigator is the iconic, Quinn.(read his iconic backstory).

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lik2?Meet-the-IconicsAric

==Aelryinth

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If you look at Pathfinder Tales, it's amusing that the vast majority of such things are fighter based, and caster classes are either seriously underplayed or outright killed off early so they can't mess up the stories. Drizzt became an epic fighter because of the stories about him and the fact he really was really, really good...but if you try to represent that level of martial ability in stories, you get frowned on.

They aren't writing epic fighters in Pathfinder Tales. They are writing about level 5-6 fighters in a level 10-12 world. When one eidolon can take apart a whole team and nobody even notice the summoner is popping spells on it...yeah, I take their whole line on high level martials with a complete grain of salt. Even the books with the century year old forced servant of Pharasma is severely unimpressive when it comes time to fight, always overshadowed by the outsiders around him.

Side note: I was in two of the first three Pathfinder compilation anthologies of fan fiction, and wrote about a fighter, naturally enough. The editor first had problems with the basic duel, and I had to explain to him exactly how Crane Wing worked and the duel was basically reflecting game mechanics. The second story, the sheer force of the MC's blows, and his ability to take damage, were clearly way above human, and I had to point out to the reluctant editor just what Power Attack and magic weapons allowed you to do for damage, and just what high hit points and damage reduction meant you could take.

The AP's follow the same formula. Epic end AP fights are always magic-centered. There are no AP's where the end boss isn't a spellcaster or creatures with spell-like abilities, simply because endgame martials are not a threat to an adventuring party...they are minions to casters. The closest they come is Skull and Shackles, where they get around the problem by giving artifacts and unique abilities to the Pirate lord so he has some magical abilities to fall back on. And a magical ship. And magical constructs/undead to command. And pet spellcasters. Having no spellcasters at the end of the AP is basically asking for it to be a walk if you've got your own casters in a party.

==Aelryinth

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Fighter damage is largely based upon getting full attacks. He's probably comparing a melee Fighter to the three classes. He probably wouldn't feel so bad if he was playing a spec archer.

Gunslingers are ranged touch attacks. Nobody beats them at close range IF they can get off their full attack sequence, simply because they won't miss.
Alchemists can either abuse TWF for bomb frenzy at range or be a mutator that gets devastating natural attacks and perhaps pounce.
kineticists are ranged attackers, again. Full attacks outdamage standard actions any day.

==Aelryinth

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You should have seen some of the old optimizer threads re: bards on the 3.5 boards at TSR. I think they had Dragonheart Bards giving out +10/+10 and +d6 fire damage to everyone in range of their voice.

Rocking out, indeed.

Oh, and if you want an Evil Power, the Horseman of War, Szuriel, would qualify.

==Aelryinth

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I've never really figured out how to do click links easily. :P

==Aelryinth

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Oh, and it should be noted...Stanley the Tool, while ostensibly a warlord, gets his power by Rocking Out and playing an Artifact level guitar. He's functionally a bard.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Ye know not of Stanley the Tool?!? Heaven Forbid!

Um. He's mostly Chaotic Stupid. But Knights in Stupid's Service doesn't work out too well.

http://www.erfworld.com/erf_stream/view

start from the beginning, of course!

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

3 people marked this as a favorite.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t6ov?Dispelling-Myths-The-CasterMartial-Dispar ity#1

Talek & Luna, you need to seriously read this link, because your arguments basically hit almost every single bloody trope that Jiggy linked to.

I'm amazed someone didn't just roll their eyes and link to it a hundred posts ago. I know you hit at least 1, 3, 4, and 7. Eesh.

Oh, and this one:

http://i.imgur.com/jNT6Ce6.png

And Kirth's Addendums:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t6ov?Dispelling-Myths-The-CasterMartial-Dispar ity#26

==Aelryinth

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