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Varisian Wanderer

Aelryinth's page

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16. RPG Superstar 6 Season Star Voter, 7 Season Star Voter. 9,559 posts (9,622 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. 1 wishlist. 1 alias.


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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Every paladin can choose to fall. They have the choice as well. If you can't stomach it, don't play the paladin.

If you accumulate enough merits, you could be a paladin, too!

If you think being a paladin is about being forced, then you DEFINITELY should not be a paladin.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Your pretentiousness aside, tectorman, what you just asked is "what are the mechanical justifications for an alignment restriction?"

Which is basically trying to argue away alignment because you can't put a number on it.

To your demand for BLANK, I've got a few counter demands.

What are the mechanical benefits for me being unable to lie?
What are the mechanical benefits for me being unable to cheat and steal?
Of not being able to use poison?
Of not being able to make a bad moral decision and just shrug it off?
Of being pious? Humble? Charitable? Friendly? Generous? Merciful? Tolerant? Faithful? Honorable? Courageous?
Noble in the truest sense?
To uphold the letter and spirit of the law?
To be a paragon of virtue?

Break down the modifiers from the rules for me, since you seem to want to boil it all down to numbers.

And then let me say that the answer to your question is that you qualify to be a paladin if you want to be.

That's the benefit.

It's not about mechanics. It's about reality and expectations.
It's about the classic trope of being rewarded for goodness, be it a holy saint, a pious knight, an enlightened monk, or a pony with the power of friendship. It's the trope that in a magical world, not being an amoral bastard has benefits all its own.

The paladin makes that trope a fact of life. To a lesser degree, the monk does for self-discipline and an ascetic lifestyle. If you go back to the original classes, whine all you like about paladins were better then fighters, but do you remember they had to tithe away half their earnings, and could only one ten magic items at a time? And that monks could own even less?

All those restrictions are there to emulate the fact that acting as a proper paladin was hard, and furthermore that failing lost all your cool stuff from being a paragon of virtue, back to being like everyone else.

But hey, you no longer had to give away half your loot, could own a golf bag of gear, could lie cheat and steal if you liked, do whatever. You just couldn't be a paladin.

If all a paladin was, was about the numbers, nobody would care. Pretty every other class is just about numbers.
The paladin is your reward for playing a true blue traditional hero, of the toughest kind to play.

And if you're going to say the paladin is just about the mechanics and anyone can play one...then you don't understand what it represents, at all.
=====================
And the &^/#&%=#%_# reason women had lower str scores was to reflect reality. Women have less upper body strength on average and at maximum then men do. Do your mothers and sisters go screaming at nature for the reality of that? No. The game reflected what is real, and it was the only ability score impacted, much against the prejudice of medieval eras where women were considered inferior in all respects.

Women could still wear gauntlets and girdles and be as strong as the men who wore the same things, so eventual equality at the upper end was built right into the system, and it had no impact whatsoever at the average level! Forgive gygax for modelling actual reality rather then video game reality when he set the stat ranges in!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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If it doesn'T DO anything, then it shouldn't matter that you cannot have it. Play a warpriest, it's why they were made.

For some of us, it really does do something, and it does matter. I know the current video game mindset is to simply grant powers and to heck with good, evil, holy or unholy, what and why and how and who gets them.

But this ain't a video game. Paladins are fine staying LG. If you don't like it, play some of the many and even 'better' options.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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cablop wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
You could make him a paragon human from the 3e epic book. That would take care of your starting stats right there. 3 levels in human racial, and off on his labors!
O.o i got a tick in my eye... that's a badass template, too powerful! But, right, it seems it is Hercules before even a single commoner level xD, except Hercules was not that smart xD.

ah, but if you start him with a base 3 Int and Wis...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Yes, keep it on target. You can retrain feats.

Nobody is talking about retraining pure traits. They are talking about retraining a feat which grants traits, another ball of wax.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Yeah, that power to cast just one spell and turn an entire battle is just something a melee doesn't get to experience much. Melees are the baseline of combat. Casters take that baseline to the next level and more.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Neutral, the alignment of non-sentient animals, plants, and elemental creatures driven by instincts.

True Neutral, an advanced philosophical alignment dealing with the balance between the great profound alignment forces. Found most frequently among students of mystic forces and nature.

False Neutral, the utter opposite of True Neutrals, caring nothing for philosophy. Can almost be likened to a sentient animal. Concerned with Maslowe's Heirarchy of needs, with basically materialistic goals at the high end instead of obtruse ones. Tend to be pretty uncaring of anything not involved with their immediate needs and goals.

That's how I see Neutrality.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Kalindlara wrote:
I did not know all that. Thank you! ^_^

welcome. Drizzt started as a 1e character in 1984 or 1986, just after 1e Unearthed Arcana came out and let you play drow, who were the only race that could have 20 dex, and finally let elves be rangers up to 15th level. Enter drizzt, level 15 20 dex drow ranger.

The character has been rewritten for every edition since. If you do not know some of the changes in the game, you can easily be caught off guard by some of the events that take place. In 4e in particular, salvatore said he had an interesting time describing drizzt's fights using 4e powers.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Hah, no, drizzt is a 15th+ level ranger in every stat block made for him.

He does not have a sword of speed. Twinkle is a +5 defender, and the other is a frost brand.

The bracers gave the equivalent of haste, I.e. one more attack. Like boots of speed in 3e.

Hehas wild empathy for dealing with wild animals.

Basically, he is always high enough level in all the books to use spells, but just never bothers to. Blame it on the author. He only uses I trinsic drow abilities, and only until they are retconned out.

Keep in mind that drizzt is NOT an optimized character. In 1e, he was an elf with spell abilities and the 20 dex only drow could have.

He has no str mod,a nd was given weapon spec just so he could viably do damage. And a custom insta-kill ability totally outside the rules.

He comes across as awesome because he's anywhere from 6 to 10 levels higher then His companions.

In a real fight, Wulfgar, with his 1e 19 level str and that +5 hammer of his would have cleaned his clock.

Run the numbers. Drizzt simply is not a great pc. He's a storybook hero levels higher then everyone around him.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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James Jacobs wrote:
Atrocious wrote:

James, don't halflings and gnomes seem absurdly short to you? My brother brought his kids over recently and they were around 3 feet tall, same as gnomes and halflings, and I noticed they don't even reach my belt line, and I'm not particularly tall to begin with.

I just don't see how they would function in everyday society, at that size their strength should be severely limited by their mass and their small hands and short arms would give them a severe disadvantage in most forms of manual labor.

And how would they even work in combat? My arms are a little bit longer than 2 feet, so I would have a massive reach advantage against a halfling in a fight. And then there's the weight, 30-40 pounds? A man my size would have about 25 pounds of skeleton, and 60-70 pounds of muscles (or more if he was very well trained). How could a halfling even compete with me?

They are indeed short, but if I can accept a dragon the size of a whale flying in the sky, I can accept a short halfling or gnome.

for halfling or gnome, now sub in'human'. For human, now sub in 'hill giant'.

Obviously, humans could never present a threat to the true giants, right? After all, relatively speaking, humans are even smaller and weaker then halflings!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Tobex wrote:

I think this book went to print too early. I expect a couple of hundred clarification/FAQ threads and errata on this.

It seems to me that this is a new toybox with no consideration for balancing the material with what's come before. It's a 'splatbook' in exactly the bad sense of the 3.0 splatbooks. Stuff in here - if incorporated into your game - so far overshadows core features that it becomes 'must have'; essentially >the< litmus test of broken.

The "rule of cool" is one thing. But how about we keep a measure of balance in the game?

I think there is some good material in here, but in multiple places the execution is IMO lousy.
There is no visible attempt to keep it even in balance with itself, let alone core rules.

You may justifiably argue that martial classes need a boost, but e.g. cutting all missiles, boulders and attack-roll spells out of the air for a mere attack of opportunity isn't ever making it to my table.
Nor are gunslinger targeted shots with whatever weapon you like.
Nor indeed are multiple readied attacks in one round, or a saving throw penalty for hitting with an attack. And no, no Vorpal-equivalent ranged weapons.

The first rule of fight-club should be you do NOT mess with the action economy. The next should be 'saving throws and melee attacks are NOT equal'(ahem, Hindering Shot).

This could have been great. Now I have to rule stuff in or out on a case-by-case basis. Seriously disappointed.

Look! The fighter can cut missiles out of the air!

Except nobody is shooting missiles at him today, so it's a wasted feat.

Look, the fighter can cut boulders out of the air today!
Except nobody's tossing boulders at him right now, either. Another wasted feat.

Look, he can cut attack-roll spells out of the air, except the spellcasters aren't using rays and spiritual hammers, they're going after his poor Will and Reflex saves with Dominates and Empowered Energized Fireballs, so it's a wasted feat.

Huh, 30% of his class bonus wasted because he's not fighting the right kind of opponent. Wish spellcasters were permanently penalized like that.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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GeneticDrift wrote:
advanced weapon training helps all of my issues, it just takes a while to get them. Better saves, more skills, team work, and protecting others....if the armor master's handbook delivers the fighter will be very fun past low levels. Many classes take time to build up options so this shouldn't hurt to much.

IF some AWT options were available at level 2-4, I'd consider this valid. Having to wait until level 5 to actually take a cool feat-level ability from AWT just makes me shake my head. Shall we differ all rage, rage talents, smites,a nd favored enemies until level 5 to even the scale?

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Cablop,

Point One: Your view of HP is somewhat at odds with the game. HP ARE a resource. HP are the main spendable resources of martials.
Spells + HP are the resource of casters.

In other words, a martial's adventuring day is done when his HP are low. A caster's adventuring day is done when his spells AND his HP are low.

Point Two: Thus, to keep the scales balanced, martials need not only to have more staying power then casters, to balance the spells, but also must recover them faster, since casters get spells AND some hp back over night.

For a ridiculous example, a fighter and wizard get into a brawl, and both are pounded unconscious. If they both get their level back in HP overnight, the fighter, who specializes in getting into fights and getting up the next day, hard-boiled, tough as iron, etc, will take TWO DAYS LONGER to get back to full health, compared to the bookish wizard who specializes in running away from fights, not enduring beatings.
AND...he has ALL his spells back the next day regardless.

Point Three: I would consider that any class that has access to healing magic has NO NEED for increased healing ability...they just cast a spell.
And EVERY CLASS has access to healing magic, because of the existence of Infernal Healing as an arcane spell (and really, it should be Celestial Healing and G alignment as well, don't you think?).
This is why I am leery of giving rangers, and paladins esp., any kind of bonus healing effect. Paladins can already cast spells and get Lay on Hands for a massive hit point buff...effectively, they have more HP then any martial in the game. They don't need a healing buff.
Rangers can cure wounds as well. If they are laid up, once they hit level 4, two CLW a day will get them on their feet and back to full health, and they can use CLW wands without UMD skill.

Point Four: I don't consider monks needing the benefit because of the existence of Qiggong. If a monk wants to be able to heal, then instead of Barkskin or True strike or whatever, they can choose Cure Moderate Wounds or a better variant, and cast it from a well-stocked ki pool every day, much like Lay On Hands.

Point Five: Supernatural effects are not spellcasting, per the rules, and I would ignore them. Else, the barb wouldn't get a healing bonus (Rage is effectively a supernatural power).

Point Six: It would only hurt Rogues in so far as their BAB is lower then a fighter...but a Rogue isn't a tank, and a slightly smaller bonus isn't punishment, it's a slightly smaller bonus.
Granted, they also can't take the Minor Magic Talent, but eh. If they want to, they can always choose Infernal Healing.

Point Seven: Without better recovery options, melees don't stand up to the trope of being tougher then casters. A martial should be able to recover the majority of his combat damage VERY quickly. Basically, all martials should have some sort of 'healing surge' type option, so they can, without using magic, get back into the fight at a speed which seems superhuman to less combative classes.
Getting more hit points out of healing magic is simply feeding the trope that Martials are quick on the mend.
---------------------------
I personally worked it this way, for Fighters: A Fighter gets one use of Vigor/day per point of Bravery bonus, and can buy more. THe amount of HP gained = Fighter level + Fort save (including all bonuses). So, it's a slowly scaling amount which he can use in combat to extend his day, or recover very quickly over a few days if no magic is available.
Healing magic used on the fighter uses his fighter level if higher level then the caster level of the effect.
Potions drank by the fighter take place at his fighter level, also, if higher, and healing potions drunk by the fighter heal double the normal amount.
--This last means a Fighter drinks potions where Paladins and Rangers use CLW wands, and both spend the same amount of money. For Paladins adn Rangers, it's an invisible 'class benefit' tied to being able to cast spells. Just being a spellcaster with a list has some major benefits, after all, it's just not spelled out as a 'class benefit'.

And it's why I say casters don't need a buff from healing magic. They can cast it themselves without a UMD check for minimum cost, why would they need a buff from it?

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The plethora of paladins article came along YEARS before such a one was written by James Jacobs. it's one of the most famous Dragon magazines, ever.

His assortment of paladins was 3eish, and he loathed writing them and having to write them.

The old school ones were:

NG Myrikhan - think holy ranger
NE Aarikhan - think wild huntsman

CG Garath - CG Church Guardians?!?
LE illrigger (jsut a cool name) - assassin, knight, spellcaster

LN Lyan - Superman Templars.
CN Faran -Barbarian tribal champions

TN Paramander - Manipulator of alignments seeking balance
FN Paramandyer -Obliterator of extreme alignments, in death is balance.
Note: These are clerical True/False Neutral, not Druidic neutral. they aren't subsets of the druidic faith.

And of course Paladin - LG and Antipaladin - CE

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Shroud wrote:

I have never seen this martial / caster disparity in any game I have ever participated in. Vanilla fighters remain a popular choice in our games and we generally have one in every campaign because a straight-up fighter is a fantastic option and in 90% of our encounters ends up the MVP.

You do not need magic or gimmicks to have a fun game. What you need are players that cooperate and are interested in playing a ROLE-PLAYING GAME instead of just rolling dice for damage.

Jiggy, you have an afflicted patient in thread. Please bring along the cures to Myths #4 and #7 please for the dear fellow, with a touch of #1.

==Aelryinth

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cablop, an easier way to do it is to just use the d6+ method.

D6 classes roll a d6.
d8 classes roll a d6+2
d10 classes roll a d6+4
d12 classes roll a d6+6.

If you just use average hit points, that ends up with a 2 hp/level difference, instead of a 1 hit point/level.

So, a wizard gets 6 hp at level 1, +3.5/level.
A cleric gets 8 hp at level 1, +5.5/level. 2 hp/level more then a wizard.
A fighter now will have 10 hp at 1, +7.5/level. A whopping 4 hp/level more then the wizard! Without a vastly higher Con score, the wizard will NEVER have more hp then the fighter.
And of course the barbarian rules the roost with 9.5 hp/level, 12 at level 1. 6 hp/level more then a wizard!

That simple adjustment will basically guarantee better HP for the higher HD classes.
----------------
For healing, you need to look at healing effects three ways - cast spells with caster levels, healing effects without caster levels (such as channel/LoH), and healing effects that cost money (namely, wands and potions).
Furthermore, you need to differentiate between caster/non-caster classes. Caster classes can more easily use UMD, or can use Wands via spell lists with no penalty. Wands are 1/2 the price of potions per point of healing...this is a BIG difference.

The easiest way to address 'needs more healing because has more hit points', assuming they actually DO have more hit points (note that a mage with Toughness and +2 Con has the same hit points as a fighter!), is simply to add their martial level to the healing magic, OR to double the power of the healing.

The first one makes low level spells useful on non-caster martials at high levels. A fighter/10 getting +10 extra HP off a Cure Light wounds basically is getting a CSW off a level 1 slot, and makes wands and potions VERY efficient on them.

The second method actually lines up the power of healing magic more with Channels and scales more evenly with the Heal spell.

Either method also works with Channels and Lay on Hands. Again, I'd restrict it to non-Casters. The fact casters have magic is also the bump they need.

And the method also works with purchased products. At the VERY least, you should double the hit points gained from Potions for non-Casters. This makes them equal to Wands in terms of cost/hp, meaning the non-caster can suck down potions instead of using a CLW wand for the same effect, and get the same benefit for the same cost without needing a caster around.

I would NOT give classes that can spellcast any bonus on healing magic. QUite literally, they don't need it.

Note: There's a Totem (Good/sacred/celestial) I believe, that gives barbs who take it more hp from healing effects. If not, it's a rage power associated with a totem.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Insain Dragoon wrote:
The extent of alternate weapons I see is the spare "+1 silver Warhammer" for use against liches, skeletons, werewolves, ect.

Are your players insane? You KNOW it's supposed to be a morningstar, not a hammer.

;)

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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shadowkras wrote:

I know the topic is old and was defiled by foul necromancy, but...

Quote:
Armor & Shields Prof (+1 feat)

So the free feats they get:

Light Armor Proficiency
Medium Armor Proficiency
Heavy Armor Proficiency
Shield Proficiency
Tower Shield Proficiency (not all martials get tower shield, so it could be a feat)

Are only worth one feat to you?

Quote:
Martial Weapons Prof (+1 feat)

Isnt Martial Weapon Proficiency (Weapon Name) a single feat per weapon? So that cannot be worth 1 feat either.

I covered this earlier in the thread.

You can only use 1 weapon at a time. As long as one of them is superior to a simple weapon, you're effectively getting a martial weapon prof. The ability to use all martial weapons is maybe 20% more important then the ability to use at least 1. i.e. you can pay nothing and get a decent weapon, or pay a feat and get the perfect one you want. The amount of damage is not going to vary by too much regardless.

As for armor profs - you can only wear one suit of armor at a time. The ending AC difference between light and heavy armor maxes at +2...a negligible amount towards the end of the game.
Commoners can wear light armor. However, this is INVERTED re: Touch AC.
The movement restrictions of the heavier armors are more then enough to say each is not worth a full feat.
Together, they are worth +1. Without a means to obviate the movement penalties, heavy armor is not that useful at all. Especially since it monumentally restricts your Touch AC, which becomes more and more important with time.

As for shields...tower shields are only of value to soldiers in wartime. i don't consider them worth a feat.
And you can pick up a mithral buckler and use it with no proficiency for full AC and no penalties. Ergo, I don't consider shields to be worth a feat, either...if you want Shield AC, you can just take the buckler and not spend a feat.

The massive cost of using a shield offensively effectively pays any costs I skip re: shields by requiring such a massive investment in the combat style.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Wow. I always have my character planned for levels in advance. Being paralyzed just would never happen.

I'd be, like, YES, FINALLY! and take it and be done like instantly.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

What we have essentially rediscovered that just like in 3.5 If you use the magic spell, effect and creation rules RAW with no houserule adjustment, you'll have recreated the Tippyverse.

So in order not to have a Tippyverse, you set houserules that define your setting as something different. I think we can come to an agreement on that.

The tippyverse was actually ignoring some things.

Once the permanent teleport circle is in place, it IS possible to block it (with forbiddance), and there's a spell in Forgotten Realms that allows you to change the destiantion point of Gates and similar things that would also work...at which point you'd have a Circle that went nowhere good.

Breaking the circle would be easier then putting it up in the first place.

Secondly, the tippyverse seems to have completely missed the point that cities need raw materials. If you're creating warforged and shadesteel golems, immense amounts of them.

Not to mention, nobody is going to subsist on Created Food and Water if they can get real, tasty food, meat, and drink. Prohibition taught us that. So there will always be a need for sources of raw material, and thus settlements outside the cities.

And naturally he's also ignoring the fact that if Teleport Circles do this, anti-teleport defenses WILL spring up to stop them. They would be concentrated around cities, yes. Unless they could be made cheaper.

Note: In Paizo, teleport defenses on massive scale are possible. See Absalom, and the Whispering Tyrant's demesne.

It's interesting to note that the Inspired of Eberron's nation DOES have a central Teleport Circle building that can reach all the other main cities in their nation. It's a great part of their national defense.

The need for archmages to set these things up is a weakness, too. If you can eliminate them, they'll never have such circles. That would probably be top priority for enemy nations.

Heh, still a good read.

==Aelryinth

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Since the Core Rulebook is the foundation of the game, you basically just said the game is pointless, since all other expansions reference it ;)

And I'm not arguing that it's balanced. Heck no. THe above is to show just how imbalanced it is, JUST looking at the classes!

==Aelryinth

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The Paizo rogue!

Hd d8 (+2)
3/4 BAB (+2)
Some martial weapons (+1)
Light armor (+0)
Good Reflex (+2)
8 Skill points (+6)
21 class skills (+5)
SA to 10d6 (+3)
Rogue Talents (+10)
Trapfinding (+1)
Trap Sense (+1)
Evasion/Imp Ev (+2)
Uncanny Dodge (+1) - Imp Uncanny dodge is so minor an upgrade I'm not giving it another +1
Master Strike (+1)
===================
Total: 37

And you wonder why the rogue has problems. If you doubled the value of sneak attack, it would match up against a fighter.
Note that 'advanced rogue talents' is dumb. It's just a pre-req saying 'you must be 10th level to take this feat.'

==Aelryinth

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Paizo Bard

HD: d8 (+2)
6 skill points (+4)
20 class skills (+5)
Good WIll/reflex (+4)
Some martial wpns (+1)
Light armor/shd (+1)
Spells Known (+34)
Bonus spells 28 Cha (+12)
3/4 Caster (+10)
Inspire Courage (+6) - Upgrades to +6 and basically good for all encounters.
Versatile Performance (+5 for extra skill points)
Use bardic spells items (+1)
Countersong/distraction/fascinate (+3, because they scale)
Well versed (+2...a massive skill point bonus to knowledge skills)
Lore master +1 (Minor ability)
Other 7 Bardsong/skill powers (+7)
=============
Total = 98

Yeah, bards ain't suffering none, either.

==Aelryinth

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Kryzbyn wrote:
Are there modifiers for conditional abilities, like a rangers favored enemy or smite evil?

Extra Favored Enemy is a 3E feat. So, FE is a feat equivalent.

Note that all a Ranger cares about is getting ONE FE to the highest number, so that at later levels he can Instant Enemy if desired for maximum killing power. In short, FE gets better with time. This turns FE into an at-will bonus.

even so, I kept each at +1, because they are situational, even if they can be tailored to the campaign.

Smite Evil is extremely powerful, and Extra Smites are available via feats. I can't see anyone rating a smite less then a feat, and in actuality each smite is probably stronger then a 1-3rd level spell, all things considered equal. The fact the paladin chooses when to use it means it is never wasted or 'useless'. So, I keep it at +1 per Smite.
If the enemy is not evil, the paladin can instead invoke a Sword Bond bonus, or cast a spell. Thus, he always has alternatives and is never left hanging.

Now, Sneak Attack is conditional, and unlike Smites or FE, is often dependent on the DM, the enemy, or other players to come into play.

In 3E ,there's a feat which increases your SA by +2d6, and another that gives you +1d6 (Mostly only important if qualifying for PrC's). Given how situational it is to kick in, and the amount of investment needed to do so, I basically set SA to +1 per 3d6, rounding down to +1 Minimum. So for the average Rogue, SA is worth 3 feats. This is about the same as full BAB (+2 feats) and Power Attack (+1 feat), if it were applicable.
========

I'd also like to point out that another reason Caster Level is valued so much more then mere BAB is that it allows you to take Item Creation feats freely. Caster level is just plain game-changing power that BAB doesn't have. BAB you can 'replace' with high Str and +1-3 natural attacks, and even do BETTER then high BAB. There's no such 'sub' for Item Creation.

===Aelryinth

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Rangers, Via Paizo

D10 HD (+3)
6 skills points (+4)
14 class skills (+3)
Good Fort/Ref (+4)
Full BAB (+4)
Martial Wpns (+1)
Med Armo/Shd (+1)
FE & Advances (+5)
FT & Advances (+4)
Lesser Animal bond (+1)
Lesser half caster (+5)
Spells 10 (+10)
Wis 18 Spells (+4)
Combat Feats 3 (+3)
Other class features -12 (+12)
Use Ranger spell items (+1)
================
Total = 64

Basically, edges out Barbs because of the spells. Without spells, basically equal.
And of course, makes the Fighter look bad.

==Aelryinth

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Sorcerors, via Paizo

d6 hd (+1)
Poor bab (+0)
Good Will save (+2)
2 skill points (+0)
9 Skills + Bloodline (+1)
Spells Known 34 (+34)
Full 9 level caster (+20)
Bonus spells/Bloodline (+9)
Eschew Materials (+1)
Bloodline feats (+3)
Bloodline Power (+5)
Use Wiz/Sorc spell items (+1)
Bonus spells cast/Cha 28 (+15)
===========
Total = 92

Matches up very close to a Wizard spec.
Note: I use spells known as the baseline for Versatility, as it is the smaller of the SPells Known/Spells Castable, and really determines overall power. However, from a feat standpoint, 1 spell Known = 1 spell castable, so the bonus spells from Cha are priced equal to spells known.

==Aelryinth

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Aelryinth wrote:

Wizard update for Paizo:

D6 HD (+1)
School powers (+2)
Note: Specializing is effectively +9 FE's for the extra spells. universalists get nothing in exchange for this boost.
Total: +3 = 75+ - Around the smallest change to a class Paizo made to a class.

==Aelryinth

I'll just outright use 28 as top stat at 20.

So +15 spells, brings base to 84.
A specialist's 9 spells brings this to 93.

If you're worried this is weaker then the cleric, the cleric is MUCH stronger all around then the wizard. The 'extra points' come down to how much you value the strength of the wizard spell list and his ability to prepare spells from it.

==Aelryinth

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Clerics via Paizo

d8 hd (+2)
3/4 BAB (+2)
Skill points 2 (+0)
Skills: 10 (+1) Note: Knowledge # never counts for more then 2 skills.
Weapons: Deity Favored (+1)
Armor Med+shd (+1)
Good fort/will (+4)
Spells 36 (+36)
Spells/28 Wis +15 (+15)
Full 9 level caster (+20)
2 Domains (+2)
9 spells slots/domains (+9)
Channel energy 18 Cha (+7)
Spontaneous Casting - Cures (+1)
Use Cleric Spell Items (+1)
==========
Total: 106 Feat Equivs

You didn't think they'd give up much to Druids, really, did you?

==Aelryinth

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Druids, via Paizo

HD d8 (+2)
4 skill points (+2)
12 Class skills (+3)
3/4 BAB (+2)
Good Fort/Will (+4)
Full 9 level Caster (+20)
Spells -36 (+36)
Spells/Wis 28 -(+15)
Armor/Shields (+1)
Druid Weapons (+1)
WIldshapes 9/day (+9, = Poly self spell)
Spon casting/Summons (+1)
Full Animal Companion or Nature Bond/domain (+2) (A Domain should technically be +10 for the extra spells and domain power, but whatever.)
Other class abilities (8 of them) - +8
Use Druidic Spell Items (+1)
=======
Total Feat Equivalents: 107 (Possibly 116 with Domain)

No, druids have no problem at all. I bet you thought paladins were impressive.

==Aelryinth

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Wizard update for Paizo:

D6 HD (+1)
School powers (+2)
Note: Specializing is effectively +9 FE's for the extra spells. universalists get nothing in exchange for this boost.
Total: +3 = 75+ - Around the smallest change to a class Paizo made to a class.

==Aelryinth

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I looked at the characters and the Paths, and I feel some of them are a mite overpowered, especially some of the Stances...but if it feels right and everyone's cool with it, fine by me.

==Aelryinth

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GM Rednal wrote:

*Nods*

Unless it's built in (like with this thing), I think assigning any hard, relative values is, as you say, a bit crazy. XD

Still, pretty much any actual valuation system makes it pretty clear that the Fighter is... lacking. That's one reason I'm glad we have Combat Stamina, since it's at least a step in the right direction.

(I don't even want to think about how the automatic inclusion of that would screw with the numeric value of abilities, though... XD)

Combat Stamina is a feat. +1 if automatically given to Fighters.

It doubles the value of a combat feat (you get 2 effects for the price of 1). So, +11.

So, 41-45. Note the barbarian is rightfully still considered superior overall...especially since he can blow a general feat and get combat stamina on whatever feats he takes, too.

Note that even though combat stamina doubles some general and character feats, we are talking about the effects on the fighter class alone.

Note: Advanced weapon mastery adds +3 feats, since it replaces the effectively valueless weapon groups of WM +2-+4 with actual Feats.

==Aelryinth

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Pathfinder paladins!

2 skill points (+0)
10 class skills (+1)
d10 hd (+3)
Good Fort/Will (+4)
Martial weapons (+1)
H Armor + Shields (+1)
Smite Evil 7/day (=7 spells, Auto scales = 2 spells/use = +14)
Detect Evil (+2 for a spell usable all day)
LG Required/Aura of Good (-1 for behavior restrictions)
Divine Grace (+6, =3 save feats, + scales by Cha x3 and stacks)
Lay On Hands, assume 28 Cha (= +19 for uses/day and scaling fully)
Channel energy (+1, dependent on lay on hands)
Caster Level -3, 4 spell levels (+5, considered a half-caster)
Spells/day 14 + 9 Cha (+23)
Use magic items from Paladin spell list (+1)
Mercies (+1, boosts Lay)
Auras of courage resolve justice faith (+4, basically spells)
Aura of Righteousness (+2, 2 effects, grants DR and compulsion immune)
Divine health (+1)
Divine Bond (+1, basically a Greater Magic weapon of shorter duration)
Holy Champion (+3, Dr Improve, Banish, Max healing)
==============
Total: +85
There's a reason nobody talks about rewriting the Paizo paladin. Paizo paladins rock!

==Aelryinth

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Yes, and relative valuations are CRAZY.

For instance, one martial weapon prof is technically a feat. There's no way I'm going to value all martial weapons at 50 feats. You can only use 1 martial weapon at a time.

Light, medium and heavy armor profs are 3 separate feats. But there is NO WAY I'm going to value them at 3, because you can't use all 3 at once, and it's actually rare to max out the dex/armor combo of lighter armors. the fact you can wear armor without a penalty is enough.

Stat to X feats also throw stuff off, because the ending value will completely overwhelm fixed feats. Cha to Will saves destroys iron will, for example. Int to Reflex saves is waaaaay better for a smart guy then Lightning Reflexes.

It's also why I value Good saves at 2 feats. Because the +2 is like Iron Will, and the second half is like a +Stat to Save instead of Default feat.

==Aelryinth

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Let's contrast the PF barbarian:

Rage: rage is basically equal to 3 stacking 2nd level spells (Owl's wis, Bull's Str, Bear's End). At level 20, you have a minimum of 25 rounds of it, more then enough for 4 combats. So, = 12 Spells known, = +12
4 skill points/level = +2
10 Class skills = +2
d12 HD = Toughness x 4 = +4
Martial Weapon Prof +1
Medium Armor + Shields = +1
Full BAB = +2
Improved and Greater Rage = Improve 3 spells each time, = 3 feat upgrades, =+6
Rage Power = basically feats = +9
Damage Reduction +5 (Roll with it Feat = +2, so +3 rounding up)=+3
Trap Sense +1
5 other class features (Fast move, Tireless rage, etc) = +5
Good Fort: +2
==================
Total = 50

The additions to the PF fighter:
Class skills: 10 (+2)
Bravery +1 (eh)
Weapon Training: +4
Armor Training/Movement: +1
Armor Training, +1 to +4= +1
Weapon and Armor Mastery: +2
=+10 More
Total of: 29-33.
And so you can see why the Barbarian is generally superior.

==Aelryinth

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No, No.

I just used the baseline of power as 'one feat'.

Then I started with the commoner. Keep adding feats until you make a class.

A (3e) wizard would be:
d4 hd (0)
Bad BAB (0)
Good Will (+2 Feats, 1 for +2, 1 for good progression)
Arcane Caster level +1 per level (+20)
Final Spell Tally by class (+36, = Extra Spell Known)
Bonus Spells from Int (+6-+15 or more)
Skill points 2 (+0)
Familiar (+1)
Full level progression of familiar (+1)
Ability to use Wands/scrolls on Wizard list (+1)
7 class skills (+0)
Scribe Scroll (+1)
bonus feats by level (+4)
======
Total = 72 - 81, depending on how you value the bonus spells from Int.

In contrast, a 3E fighter was:
d10 HD = 3 Improved toughness feats (+3)
Armor & Shields Prof (+1 feat)
Martial Weapons Prof (+1 feat)
Good Fort save (+2)
+11 Combat feats (+11)
Good BAB (+2 feats)
2 skill points (+0)
7 class skills (=0)
===========
Total = 18 (Maybe 20 if you value full BAB at 4 feats, 22 if you value armor and weapon profs higher.)
=============================
Which gave you a really clear view of how powerful they viewed spellcasting vs feats.

The Warblade was:
d12 hd (+4)
medium armor and shields (+1)
martial Weapons (no bows) (+1)
Manuvers Known (13)
manuvers readied (7)
Refresh Mechanic (+1)
Class abilities (Bonus feats,4 stances, battle X, etc) (+17)
4 skill points (+2)
Class skills -12 (+2)
Full Initiator level (+1)
Improve/Swap Manuver 9 times (+9) (this is equivalent to a feat upgrade!)
===========
Total = 68
As you can see, the Warblade was a MUCH more complete class then a Fighter was. Manuvers, Stances, class features, and recharge mechanics were the biggest contributors, along with the priceless ability to swap out an old Manuver for a new one that did the same thing, only better, without having to worry about pre-reqs much.

==Aelryinth

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gOOGLE 'A plethora of paladins' and it gives you the rest.

You want scary? You need only look at the lyan and the illrigger. The Lyan was like the Superman of Paladins. And the illrigger wasn't much worse.

Of course, you REALLY need to update the constant +1 th/dmg opposite alignment/class level effects...

But yeah, the biggest difference with the Plethora was they had completely different flavor then paladins, they didn't just repaint the alignment factors and call it 'balanced'.

Lyan - LN secret society of anti-chaos super knights. Complete with their own secret deity.
Illrigger - LE knightly assassin. Stealth, magic spells, fight, he could do it all.
Myrikhan - basically NG holy anti-evil ranger
Paramander - shameless TN manipulator of non-neutral alignments seeking balance, sort of a theif/knight
Paramandyer - TN version, except he kills extreme alignments.
Aarikhan - NE unholy death-dealer knights
Garath - CG holy church guardians (never got the flavor of this one...)
Fantra - CN guardians of barbarian tribes, who consider non-tribal members little better then talking animals.

==Aelryinth

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Rogues's problem is that in 1E and 2E they were the stealth class. Invisibility went so far, but could be detected. If the rogue made his HIS and MS, he was invisible to most creatures.

He was also the only one who could find traps, disarm them, and open locks.
He had niche protection. You know, like casting wizard spells.

Now, everyone can use his skills, and while he gets a bunch, the bard gets more, fights just as well AND has magic. And gets bonuses from his class on those skills.

The rogue has NOTHING but the trope behind him. He's not better at skills then any other class...he's vulnerable with both encounter ending saves...dependent on others to maximize combat ability...

He's just...pathetic. They took EVERYTHING in his niche away from him, THEN debuffed him. It's like, duh, wha.

==Aelryinth

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"First level spells and cantrips are useless'.

Oh my god. Have you ever even THOUGHT about what such minor spells could do for time savings for people back then? if the population could just use cantrips, it would be incredible. First level spells could change the world.

Just a 1st level caster:
Prestidigitation:
SEEDING A FIELD/ - Perfectly. You have a bag of seeds, and you walk between the plowed rows. The seeds fly out and plant your wheat stalks exactly four inches apart, six inches down...and then CLOSES THE FURROW so the birds can't eat them.
You can perfectly seed miles of plow lines without having to bend over, push the seed down, and close it up, and you're not just tossing out seed in the desperate hope it goes to root. Food production would skyrocket for LESS WORK.

CLEANING: You can instantly clear up minor waste from an area and render rooms clean in seconds, as well as putting everything back in place.
You can wash an entire household worth of clothes in minutes at most.
every single place you work can be returned to immaculate shape and with everything in the right place when you are done, regardless of how messed up and dirty it has become. No clean up time required.
Average level of health would increase rapidly. Women are freed up from much of the drudgery of maintaining a home.

CLEARING FIELDS: Time to expand! The most back breaking part is getting the rocks out of the fields. Walk along, small stones fly out of the ground and drop onto your Floating Disk. Larger stones get marked and your unseen servant slowly and patiently works them out and adds them to piles stacked here and there as your Disk becomes full. At the end of the day, you bring up a wagon, shuffle the stones onto it, and you've cleared massive amounts of ground without having to bend over and haul them up manually.

BUILDING STUFF: you can pound a nail in instantly (or, at the very least, set it precisely in place for a swat), turn dozens of screws into place instantly and precisely, while your tireless Unseen Servant does all the sawing at the marks you set down. The servants can either fetch materials for you or push a Disk with the same on them.

Unseen Servants and Prestidigitation can milk your cows for you. It can also feed your chickens and clean their cages.

Prestidigitation can perfectly clean,sort, and sift seeds, chaff, flour and the like at harvest time. You just need to sit there and concentrate, reducing hours of hard labor to virtually nothing, and getting a much higher quality level out of it.

It can also heat or cool food on demand, which helps out wonderfully when cooking.

Light/Dancing lights: I shouldn't have to say what always having a light source available that works in any weather can be useful for, from simple reading to signalling at a distance.

Purify Food and Water (c) means your food stores don't make you sick and won't go bad. Health and diet improve again.

Mage Hand specifically moves around objects up to 5 lbs as you like at range. No more wasting time getting up and moving around to fetch something. COME TO MY HAND! Also helps with mid-size rocks in fields.

Daze works against anything up to 4 HD. Awesome defense weapon against dangerous animals/creatures. 50% chance of shutting them down so you can run away.

Using Spark, you always have an instant fire ready to go, regardless of conditions.

Detect Poison has multiple uses, from detecting bad booze to avoiding assassination to sensing poisonous animals.

Using Ray of Cold, you always have cold drinks on demand, and basic refrigeration becomes possible. Just make a cold room and freeze a few gallons of ice into blocks every day to keep it cool.

You can use the Drench Cantrip to replace create water, instantly soaking your crops as you walk along, OR...putting out fires.

Ray of Frost is instant self-defense. It also can be used to shoot down birds preying on your crops, or for hunting squirrels, rabbits and other small game. It is far more accurate then using a bow and arrow, too.

a town of people who can memorize Disrupt Undead would never fear a zombie apocalypse.

MENDING: Making minor repairs on something without need for material components or tools. You can keep everything you have in tip top shape for much longer, reducing wear and tear, preserving money, allowing you to afford higher quality wear instead of cheap stuff that wears out quickly. Preserves and enhances quality of life by undoing accidents and the ravages of time.
====
1st level spells-

Using Endure Elements, you can work in the hottest or coldest of weather without discomfort or needing cold weather gear.

Abundant Ammunition: You never need to buy arrows again. You can practice for an hour a day and never have to go fetch the arrows. You don't have to carry around quivers - just cast the spell when its time to shoot your quarry. This spell is worth tons of money and time.

Magic Missile: This spell allows you to unerringly shoot and kill small game. The perfect one-shot hunting spell to supplement your diet, as well as being semi-useful for self-defense. While Snowball improves faster, its Ranged Touch means you will still sometimes miss.

Comprehend Languages means you can always understand what strangers or intelligent monsters have to say, or what odd languages mean, avoiding misunderstandings if possible. Two people with this spell effectively have Tongues with each other.

Dancing Lantern: Very bright light source that follows you around hands free at any speed...like riding at night, if need be.

Detect Charm and Detect Undead: Thinking something suspicious is going on, now you can be absolutely sure of it! Reduces infiltration and confirms actual presence of threats. Great for security.

See Alignment: Used over time, gives you an excellent idea of what your friends and neighbors are like, bypassing charming faces and slick words. Lets people know who to trust and who not to.

True Strike: The power of the average man to Not Miss with a strong attack cannot be understated. Particularly useful for hunters. A hundred archers who could cast this spell twice can kill almost anything under CR 15, using the right arrows.

Keep Watch: A must for any night watchman. Never be sleep-deprived.

Sleep: A better version of Daze, because you can coup the sleeping creature if required.

Floating Disk: the ability to carry around up to 100 lbs of stuff without strain for an hour cannot be underestimated. Instead of making multiple trips with small loads, you can make one at a time. It's like having the perfect wheelbarrow that can go anywhere on demand.

Vanish: 1 rd of invisibility can save your life.

Decompose Corpse: Turning rotting corpses into skeletons is equivalent to burning the dead and fighting disease. No need for a pyre. Bonus: You can't make a zombie out of it, now, or Raise Dead on it.

Restore Flesh: As someone noted, Restoring flesh to the skeleton of a deer and then Purifying it effectively creates an infinite source of meat - but this is a loophole.

Ant Haul: Being able to triple the weight load of a strong creature can allow a LOT of work to be done, or things to be moved which otherwise could not. A strong horse can move a good-sized boulder and probably rip a tree out of the ground with this spell.

Animate Rope: if you are working with nets and/or sails, this spell is incredibly precise and useful.

Crafter's Fortune: This increases the speed at which you make things by 33%, and makes it much easier to create a Masterwork object (a level 2 character could cast it and create a Masterwork object in his trade EVERY TIME, without any other help. Otherwise, just need an aide or masterwork tools.)
The biggest thing is speed of production, however. Going from an average 15 to a 20 is a big leap in speed.

Mirror Polish: this unassuming spell replaces hours of labor.

Cure Light WOunds(c): Assuming you can't get Infernal Healing. This one spell takes an injury that would keep you down for days and gets rid of it instantly. It can save those dying instantly and perfectly, so getting kicked in the head by a horse is no longer dangerous.
As a cantrip, Stabilize takes the risk of dying from an injury that doesn't instantly kill you to 0. The chances of permanent injury/maiming are much reduced.

Create Water(c): A single 1st level cleric can provide enough daily water for hundreds of people to exist on, and/or keep acres of gardens well watered, if he needs to. His flowers will always be blooming.

Guidance (c): +1 to a roll is generally +6-7% more efficient, even if all you apply it to is a Craft roll. It all adds up, and it's free. Put it on a hundred craftsmen, and that's +100 silver a day in production, which is more goods coming to market.

Bless Water: Makes Holy water. i.e. makes money AND a weapon.

Carrion Compass: Find the source of the undead. Security spell allowing you to eliminate the source of a dangerous problem.

Diagnose Disease: Incredibly useful spell for maintaining the health of herds and a population.

Hairline Fractures: this spell is VERY handy in reducing the amount of labor needed to pound down large rocks.

Remove Sickness: takes someone who can't work and lets them work as if they were fine.

Speak with Animals: The ability to tell your mousing/hunting dog/cat exactly what to do, or for them to be able to tell you what they sense, would both be immensely useful.

+++++++++++++++
And let's not forget one very, very important effect - the ability to use magic items.
Being able to issue Wands to much of your population in the event of an attack, or simply having a random bystander being able to pick up and use them for you, would be incredibly useful.

Even minor magic, with enough numbers behind it, can be immensely strong. Archers with true strike, hundreds of magic missilers, etc, can really shake up and change a military situation.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
So, yeah, having a couple mages going around and casting minor spells for people won't do a massive amount except in special situations, especially combat spells.

But for specific uses, Prestidigitation and other cantrips are IMMENSE time savers if you can use them yourself, not to mention the effect on health and quality of life. Simply having your pet mages go out at harvest time to do the seeding would reap IMMENSE rewards, not to mention replacing all the filter/cleaning/seperate work at harvest time.

Create Water means eternally bountiful gardens, basically. And you get a lot more food out of a garden then a wheat field.

So, no, those peasants do NOT have anything better to do with their kids then help them learn how to keep everyone fed, make labor easier and faster, keep their food stores cold, wipe out vermin, make their clothes and tools last longer.
You realize that's the same argument nobles used to discourage commoners from getting a public education, right? It's as valid now as it was then. Everyone smart knows that an education is a ticket to a better life...even if you go back to being a farmer.
and farmers aren't dumb.

==Aelryinth

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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

^But that's the thing: Lawful Good is NOT at the center. Neutral Good is actually at the center of the Good alignments. And Lawful Good and Chaotic Good both put on additional restrictions that tend to interfere with Good.

But when it comes to building societies.... Chaotic Good is essentially tribal level where as your great cities and civilisations with huge populations are almost always going to be lawful. So while they may occupy equal areas on a number graph, they won't be equal when it comes to sheer population numbers.

Good has the wondrous property of being stronger then the sum of its parts.

CG prospers most at the edge of LG societies, being able to take shameless advantage of the advances, prosperity and predictability of LG folk to thrive in their own way. CG becomes the escape valve from the rigidity of LG, while benefiting immensely from LG's depth of knowledge, moral center, and culture to draw on. (You always want your neighboring kingdoms to be more LG then you are, after all).

LG prospers from the presence of CG by having individuals willing to do the right thing when laws bind their hands, and by exploiting the inspiration of CG individualism to disseminate those advancements slowly and steadily across their civilization, preventing stagnation and the tendency of Law to try to subvert Goodness.

NG is the bridge that keeps the two halves together, instead of massively irritated with one another, realizing that everyone is stronger together and keeping the whole system working.

==Aelryinth

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and yet, finding out the rules and laws of God's creation has been the same driving force which has led to our modern understanding of the world around us, driven often by very religious, moral men.

It's when you start veering into 'immoral' that religion starts to come onto the stage and try to stop stuff. One man's immorality is another's 'so what?', however, and so in such cases religion comes across as inflexible and reactionary.

So, 'by its nature' is not an argument. 'Having a moral code' is just as reactionary and inhibitive. And to the extent religions are responsible for much of our moral and philosophic outlook, you can blame them.

So, religions aren't 'intrinscially' to blame. The people in power in them, that's a different thing, and has nothing to do with religion, it's all about money and power, and using religion as just one more tool to hold onto it.

==Aelryinth

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Minor correction: Islam did not create Algebra. Intellectual Muslims created algebra, and specifically those from the wealthiest and most prosperous Islamic society in history (relative to the rest of the world).

Subtle differences!

And Ashiel, using religion as the fiend for combating scientific advancement is ignoring the governments, guilds, wealthy individuals and random chance that did the exact same thing. Indeed, guilds discouraging independent innovation in their crafting arts are probably MUCH worse then churches, who were often only acting at the behest of nobles terrified by advancements that could threaten their place in society (re: gunpowder and crossbows). "Heavens, commoners will be able to kill us without having to afford heavy armor, weapons, the best food and training? BAN THEM!)

Even the fluff over astronomy boiled to "What do you mean, we aren't the center of the universe?" and powerful people not wanting to acknowledge that fact, and the whole thing with Creationism is people believing the Bible is infallible and not something written by people and prone to allegory as much as truth.

The Church's position on not wanting to learn the Bible is directly comparable to nobles not wanting commoners (and slaves) to not get educated. Because smart, educated people are dangerous, and question the powers that try to keep them poor and stupid.

==Aelryinth

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Melkiador wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:


Regardless, the evil in this is the person who set up the situation, not on you.

==Aelryinth

Ok then take away that evil person. You and 11 of your friends had a wild party in the train yard. You woke up naked and locked in the booth. 10 of your friends passed out on the first track. One of your friends passed out on the second.

Still contrived. YOur solution is to STOP THE TRAIN. Since there is no way this would happen in reality (really? EVERYONE is on the tracks?) someone set this up, and they are to blame.

Let's make it MORE contrived. The lone guy is the shy nerd who is going to solve cancer, and the ten schmucks are going to accidentally run a school bus full of children off the road in six months.

It's a No-win solution, put the blame where it belongs.

==Aelryinth

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Qaianna wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

Lawful evil is "evil you can work with."

That is not the same as less evil.

This idea probably comes from folks seeing 'Lawful' as a brake on the evil -- there are just some things you don't do, even as a horrible tyrant.

Oh, LE is much, much worse then CE...because what CE does freely, uninhibited and randomly, LE PLANS to do, and carries out efficiently when it is time to do so.

When you are working with them, you are simply gambling that now is not the time.

==Aelryinth

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to be honest, not counting a full martials armor and weapons against his WBL would go a long way towards balance, as he'd be able to afford more misc magic items, potions, etc.

It's actually one of the best hidden characteristics of the Soulknife class, and even the half-price for raising for the Magus is pretty nice...he basically buffs his weapon, and gets his armor for free!

But you'd have to do the benefit level by level, or it would just be dipped and abused.

==Aelryinth

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It depends on the attitude you want to convey.

Inbred bored decadent useless aristocrat whose House is fading? NPC Noble class.

Knightly ancestry and militant martial flavor? Cavalier. If truly noble and high-minded, Paladin.

Renaissance era leaders of the new generation? Magus I-can-do-it-all

Renaissance noble twits and dilettantes (or diplomats)? Bards

Magical society I'm-educated-and-better-then-you? Wizards.

Magical Bloodline that proves you are noble? Sorcerer.

Ruthless power players with no magic/mafia/Machiavellian? Rogues.

Great White Hunter with nothing better to do with his time? Ranger

Feared Duelist/master of the sword? Stalker

Crazed fool delving into mysteries man wasn't meant to know? Alchemist.(Hey, they did that in a couple of AP's)

===Aelryinth

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The Sword wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Okay, how are the two examples in the last 30 posts doing anything BUT extolling mc disparity?

Two barrels of gunpowder, running away. Exactly how is that a fighter class ability?
Oh, wait, a bard did it.
At least a caster, or even a barbarian, has an INCREASED MOVEMENT RATE TO RUN AWAY.
And extra skill points to spend on Alchemy to create gunpowder. Right.

And then, building a Fighter/ANY CHARACTER with a good Diplomacy score, because NOTHING in that suggestion had anything to do with the Fighter class. Except, of course, that Cha is a dump score, and buffing it up to be a diplomat is flavorful, but makes him a worse fighter.

A paladin wouldn't have to spend the trait to make it a class skill, and Cha is a prime stat, not a dump one. auto better then fighter, right at the start.

Bard it's his prime stat and he'll pump it, in addition to being able to double dip skill points and use spells to buff it.

Contrasted to a bunch of stuff ANY CHARACTER CAN DO.

Meh. Bad examples is bad examples, is.

==Aelryinth

Okay but if you read the posts either side you would see it is an example of common sense application of rules, because a lot of martial choices are shut down by a slavish attention to the rules and lack of willingness to improvise novel situations. It was in response to a players attempt to blow someone up with a box of grenades... but someone else said the grenade rules don't work like that... shutting down the solution.

For the record, the bard was level 1, level 2 swashbuckler, so didn't use magic at all. The point is that no special powers were required to perform the heroic feats in the example.

Right. Which makes it totally irrelevant to the disparity argument, which are all about required powers BEING needed. Because you just described something any Caster could do, and owing that most casters have access to resources which could a) detonate the thing remotely or b) run faster then base move, they could still do better then a Fighter.

And fighters don't get extra feats. They get extra COMBAT feats. Those combat feats are his 'class features'. They are supposed to make up for not getting smites, spells, rage and Favored Enemy. They do NOTHING for helping a fighter with Diplomacy.

These in no way help with a diplomacy build. The cost of a fighter following that diplomacy build is MORE then any other class out there except maybe a Barbarian. Because no standard class synergy with any elements of that build, stats, feats, traits, whatever.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Okay, how are the two examples in the last 30 posts doing anything BUT extolling mc disparity?

Two barrels of gunpowder, running away. Exactly how is that a fighter class ability?
Oh, wait, a bard did it.
At least a caster, or even a barbarian, has an INCREASED MOVEMENT RATE TO RUN AWAY.
And extra skill points to spend on Alchemy to create gunpowder. Right.

And then, building a Fighter/ANY CHARACTER with a good Diplomacy score, because NOTHING in that suggestion had anything to do with the Fighter class. Except, of course, that Cha is a dump score, and buffing it up to be a diplomat is flavorful, but makes him a worse fighter.

A paladin wouldn't have to spend the trait to make it a class skill, and Cha is a prime stat, not a dump one. auto better then fighter, right at the start.

Bard it's his prime stat and he'll pump it, in addition to being able to double dip skill points and use spells to buff it.

Contrasted to a bunch of stuff ANY CHARACTER CAN DO.

Meh. Bad examples is bad examples, is.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ethereal Gears wrote:


I feel like I'm the only roleplayer who draws all my inspiration from Terry Pratchett, China Miéville and HP Lovecraft.

I totally get the point that there should be a space for some kind of crazy Herculean type martials and things along those lines.

(all my references are Norse, sorry!).

but a far cry from being able to perform the Twelve Labors or what have you.

Looks like you're getting some Greek and modern mixed into your Norse. :)

Celtic's big mythic story is Cu Chulain, who is class Celtic Berzerker high fantasy of the Ulster Cycle, and Finn, the classic Irish warrior hero of the Fianna Cycle. Both epics can be found online.

And of course, Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table in Le Morte d'Arthur (yes, his legend was French in origin). The Song of Roland is another knightly epic, but set in Spain. Very easy to find the former at a library, the Song of Roland will be a bit tougher.

You should read up on your European mythology. Cu Chulain was probably the most godlike of the heroes, but there's some seriously high level stuff going on with Roland and even the Fianna.

==Aelryinth

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