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Varisian Wanderer

Aelryinth's page

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16. RPG Superstar 6 Season Star Voter, 7 Season Star Voter. 8,940 posts (9,003 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. 1 wishlist. 1 alias.

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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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A sample reference for Armor Class costs

AC comes, at a fundamental level, in the following forms which are easy to gain: Dex Bonus; Armor Bonus; Natural Armor Bonus; Deflection Bonus; and potentially a Shield Bonus. Yes, there are Insight, Sacred, Profane, Competence, Dodge and all sorts of other bonuses, but the above bonuses are the ones that are easy to pay gold for and retain.

This is a simple basic guide to maximizing AC for gold.

Two builds are presented here – With Shield, and without Shield. Additionally, there is a third build here using Defender to accentuate your AC via an off-hand weapon, or on a shield.

First is going to be choice of armor.
The optimal types of armor are: Light Armor (all varieties add up to +8 Armor/Dex allowed); Breastplate (Medium armor, +6 AC/+3 Dex = +9); and Full Plate (+9 AC, +1 Dex = +10).

Note: Celestial Armor completely borks this table if you have the Dex to top it off, coming in at +13!!

First thing to point out is that Mithral is only a viable AC option if you have the Dex to max it out, OR you need your armor to be lighter for movement purposes.

Classes that are going to get exceedingly high Dex scores are actually better off with lighter armor that allows them to maximize use of their Dexterity at later levels. The exception to this is the Fighter; because Armor Training expands the maximum Dex bonus, Fighters typically aren’t going to need Mithral armor until very late levels, when their Dex scores exceed either 20 or 24 (Full Plate/Breastplate).

Maximizing AC is based on costs to gain an extra point of AC. These costs are:

+1 Armor bonus: 1000 gp, +3000 gp; +5000 Gp; +7000 gp; +9000 gp.
+1 Shield bonus: As +1 Armor
+1 Natural Armor: 2000 gp; +6000 gp; +10000 gp; +14000 gp; +18000 gp.
+1 Deflection bonus: As Amulet of Natural Armor
+1 Dexterity bonus: 4000/6000 gp (Dex +2); +12000/+18000 gp (Dex +4); +20,000/+30,000 gp (Dex+6). Prices are stand-alone/adding onto a belt.
Mithral Armor (Total bonus +2): Light, +1000 gp, Medium Armor +4000 gp, Heavy armor +9000 gp:
+1 Defender on Weapon used for defense: 8000 gp; +10,000 gp; +14,000 gp; +18,000 gp; +22,000 gp. (ending at +5 Defender)

There are two other AC bonuses you can get in the core game: +1 Insight AC from a Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, and +1 Luck Bonus to AC from a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier. Both are Slotless, and cost 5k, the same price as improving a piece of armor from +2 to +3. Both also grant Touch AC, and so should be taken before other AC improvement.

Now, we simply take them and add them on in series.

If your starting Dex is 20 and you wear light armor; Immediately buy a chain shirt.
If your starting Dex is 17 and you can wear Medium Armor, buy a breastplate.
If your Starting Dex is 13 or lower, buy Full Plate.
Note that if you are a Fighter, you need to increase the minimum Dex for Mithral by your Armor Training bonus.

Chain Shirt, 19 Dex = +8 AC
Breastplate, 17 Dex = +9 AC
Full Plate, 13 Dex = +10 AC

Bonuses are listed in the order you add them, with Defender bonuses last as an optional (you should take them before similar items if possible). Basically, you want Deflection before anything; Dexterity next; and Nat Armor and Armor Enhancements equally. This is because the prior two affect your Touch AC (so does Defender) and the latter do not.

Add Cost AC Total GP Total
Mithral Light Armor 1000 (+2) (+1000)
+1 Armor Enhance 1000 +1 1000
+1 Ring of Prot 2000 +2 3000
+1 Natural Armor 2000 +3 5000
Mithral Medium Armor 4000 (+2) (+4000, Dex 20)
+2 Armor Enhance 3000 +4 8000
+2 Dex Gaunts 4000 +5 12000
Mithral Heavy Armor 9000 (+2) +9000, Dex 17+
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, +1 Insight 5000 +6 17,000
Jingasa of the Fortunate Solider, +1 Luck 5000 +7 22,000
+3 Armor Enhance 5000 +8 27000
+2 Ring/Prot 6000 +9 33000
+2 Natural Armor 6000 +10 39000
+4 Armor Enhance 7000 +11 46000
(+1 Defender) (+8000) (+1*)
+5 Armor Enhance 9000 +12 55000
+3 Ring/Prot 10000 +13 65000
+3 Natural Armor 10000 +14 75000
(+2 Defender) 10000 (+18000) (+2*)
+4 Dex booster 12000 +15 87000
+4 Ring of Prot 14000 +16 101000
+4 Natural Armor 14000 +17 115000
(+3 Defender) 14000 (+32000) (+3*)
+5 Ring of Prot 18000 +18 133000
+5 Natural Armor 18000 +19 151000
(+4 Defender) 18000 (+50000) (+4*)
+6 Dex Booster 20000 +20 171000
(+5 Defender) 22000 (+72000) (+5*)

Totals: Light Armor: Mithral (or Darkleaf Cloth) Studded Leather +5, Dex 24 = AC 38, 162k
Medium Armor: Mithral Breastplate+5, Dex 20 = AC 38, 165k
Full Plate: M. Full Plate, Dex 16 = AC 39, 170k
Fighter Armor Training +4
Note: Needs +5 Dex (level/inherent) on all!
Mithral Chain Shirt, Dex 30. AC 40.
Mithral BP, Dex 28, AC 41
Mithral Full Plate, Dex 24, AC 42

Note that Mithral Celestial Armor basically adds +2 to all of this.

Mithral is basically needed to max out Dex bonus for Dex builds. For fighters, Armor Training basically means their Dex will seldom be high enough to max out their armor.

Using an off-hand weapon as a Defender adds 72,000 gp to the defense cost, but the +5 AC is significant.

For Shield builds, the cost is negligible (+25000 gp for a +5) and the AC is significant (+6 or 7), resulting in a much quicker rise in AC.

+1 Armor Enhance 1000 +1 1000
+1 Shield Enhance 1000 +2 2000
+1 Ring of Prot 2000 +3 4000
+1 Natural Armor 2000 +4 6000
+2 Armor Enhance 3000 +5 9000
+2 Shield Enhance 3000 +6 12000
+2 Dex Gaunts 4000 +7 16000
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone 5000 +8 21000
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier 5000 +9 26000
+3 Armor Enhance 5000 +10 31000
+3 Shield Enhance 5000 +11 36000
+2 Ring/Prot 6000 +12 42000
+2 Natural Armor 6000 +13 48000
+4 Armor Enhance 7000 +14 55000
+4 Shield Enhance 7000 +15 62000
+5 Armor Enhance 9000 +16 71000
+5 Shield Enhance 9000 +17 80000
+3 Ring/Prot 10000 +18 90000
+3 Natural Armor 10000 +19 100000
+4 Dex booster 12000 +20 112000
+4 Ring of Prot 14000 +21 126000
+4 Natural Armor 14000 +22 140000
+5 Ring of Prot 18000 +23 158000
+5 Natural Armor 18000 +24 176000
+6 Dex Booster 20000 +25 196000

Assuming use of a Heavy Shield for +2 AC, at 12k layout you’re +3 AC ahead of the Shield-less build. At 50k you are +4 ahead. At 100k you are +5 ahead, at 150k you are +6 ahead, and you max out at +7 ahead.
Note that if you put Defender on your shield, and simply don’t attack with it, the numbers can look something like this:

Light Armor: AC 47, 52 with Defender
Medium Armor: AC 48, 53 with Defender
Heavy Armor: AC 49, 54 with Defender.

And all this is before Dodge, Shield Specialization, and incidental bonuses from spells, templates, defensive fighting, and whatnot. Note that to max Dex from Armor Training, any fighter is going to need Inherent bonuses to his Dex, unless he raises Dex instead of Str.

If he does both, then he probably wants a lighter grade of armor to max out the Dodge-based bonus of Dex, which is more effective against touch/ranged touch attacks.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Be Lawful and unable to Rage. Ask your DM what alternatives you have then.


RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Rynjin wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

It's like the guy who thought there could be Paladins of Asmodeus. Anything to throw dirt on the good guys, I guess. It's like you can't simply make decent stereotypes without someone wanting to immediately throw crap on them.

"Stereotypes" is exactly the problem. Erastil is one of the most cliched, bland deities in the setting. He's every god in every setting of his type in a nutshell, with a little extra nature flavor thrown in for reasons.

It's not about "throwing crap" on things, it's adding a little texture to a two dimensional figure.

Good guys, contrary to popular belief, can do bad things, and think bad thoughts.

If Erastil silently disapproves of women (or anyone, for that matter) having aspirations beyond their little community and growing it, that's okay. It doesn't change his alignment, it just makes him a Good guy with a negative trait.

Your grandparents probably held the same beliefs. Does that make them bad people?

It's already part of his beliefs...he's about the community, not big dreams. So, you're trying to make a negative trait out of what is one of his primary beliefs...that you can't have true lawful good unless your people are close to your government, and the community is small and intertwined.

What you're trying to do is make it 'bad' by adding overt sexism to it.

He's NOT a chaotic god. Therefore, yeah, he's 'bland'. He is a LG god of nature, which is UNIQUE in just about every setting I know of. he's about family and community, not dungeon-diving and evil-slaughtering. He's about bringing in the harvest and milking the cows and hunting down things which threaten the townsfolk, not looting old tombs, stirring up great dooms, putting down ancient curses. He cares for the land and the people and doesn't stir up trouble for the fun of it.

So, yeah, he's 'bland' because the things he stands for are conservative, close to home, protective, family-oriented. Not adventurer/knight/mercenary style stuff.

For all that, he's unique. Virtually every other god in the book is a cookie-cutter stereotype borrowed from other settings. "Our god of paladins is a woman!' 'Our god of travelers is a butterfly!' 'our god of theives has 4 different churches just to confuse things!' 'Our god of swashbucklers became one while drunk!' blah blah blah.

If you swiped out Desna for Fharlanghn or Celestian, nobody would bat an eye. oops, no longer a butterfly.
Iomadae might as well be Heironeous or Torm for all the differences.
Cayden acts like every Tymoran or Harper in the bleeding FR, or any other trickster god, ever.

Boring Erastil? he doesn't really have any counterpart, anywhere. Oh, sure, there's gods of the home, there's gods of the hunt, but LG? Representing both farming and hunting, nature and community, family and good neighbors?

his closest equivalent is Mielikki in FR, who is NOTHING like him, or her Greyhawk twin Ehlonna, and that's only because they are Hunt goddesses who use a bow, so wrapped up in nature bias there's nothing like Erastil's flavor of being the hunter that provides for his people and community about them. They all seem to be about shooting bad guys who threaten trees.

So, he's bland because his areas of interest are very un-adventuresome and bland.

he's still unique, and he makes for a truly appropriate spin on a LG god for the common person.

Cayden is not a god for the common MAN. he might be a god for the common-BORN, since he doesn't hold nobility in any higher regard then Erastil does. But he's definitely a god for 'those who dare', he just doesn't give a damn what your origins are.
But he's still the 'laughing rogue' stereotype god, right down to his bones.


RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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"Walking back' Erastil's unsavory characteristics is more a case of 'wtf was that idiot doing thinking a LG god acts like that?'

It's like the guy who thought there could be Paladins of Asmodeus. Anything to throw dirt on the good guys, I guess. It's like you can't simply make decent stereotypes without someone wanting to immediately throw crap on them.

You can already claim that Erastil is fairly close-minded because he prefers small communities that are tight, and doesn't give a fig for high minded kingdoms and empires and crusades. He's not a god of adventurers, trouble makers, rabble rousers, 'those who dare', because he rightfully and reasonably sees that such people tend to stir up all kinds of trouble for locals, and often run away from the very trouble they cause, leaving locals to clean up their messes or take the brunt of the punishment/consequences for their actions.

But making Erastil out to be a misogynist who forces women into a particular role ignores what Lawful GOOD is all about. Lawful Neutral? Yeah, I could see it. Lawful EVIL? definitely.

At the same time, I really, strongly feel that someone who emphasizes marriage so much should have a known divine marriage and family himself to emphasize that he lives what he believes. I don't know why there isn't a Ms. Erastil and O'Erastil clan published SOMEWHERE. Makes no sense for such a family-oriented god. A simple note that Erastil has been the faithful husband to deity x for uncounted millennia and they've had over a dozen children together would be fine. His avatars have also been known to take mortal wives (and husbands) at times, to help communities rebuild around a strong center, and so uncounted mortals have the blood of Erastil flowing through them.

I would find it even more fun if the fact that Erastil is the ancestor of so many beings and would know all his descendants means that he is the ONE person who knows who Nogrober actually is (and Nogrober himself has no clue Erastil is one of his ancestors), and Cayden is a not-so-distant grandson of his...and Iomadae a grand=daughter.


RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Caydenite priests run taverns. Now, their worshippers are probably a traveling, rowdy, trouble-making bunch...but the Church itself is probably remarkably settled and exists to cater to travelers...while also at the same time probably becoming very strong members of the local community (if not only because they make booze, which ties them to the agricultural side of things).

They also run ORPHANAGES. Erastil is all about family...orphanages are probably a grey area existing between community and family responsibility. The fact Cayden's people are willing to do this probably raises their value greatly in Erastil's eyes, because it's a heavy responsibility few are willing to undertake...even if they get brought up as rowdy trouble-makers, it's still providing children a family. Erastil probably considers those orphanages as worth every bit of ruckus Cayden causes, and then some.

So, I see the Churches getting along REMARKABLY well. It's also convenient that they form a nice place for trouble to congregate to, and keep such away from the farms and shops of locals. It's probably quite appreciated. "Aye, another outlander got stabbed last night." "At the tavern?" "Where else, o' course?" "I think they sell a stabbing per hunnert pints, what ya think, Earl?" "Shut up and load the hops fer the deacon, Fred. Lessen you like you like your beer flavored like your well."


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Erastil is probably the least cookie-cutter LG god that's ever been widely published.

Come on, most LG gods are your just warrior paladin types (Heironeous, Torm, Dragonlance bahamut), your law/kingly types (Cuthbert, Tyr), healer types (kwan yin, Ilmater, other healers), peace/knowledge/wisdom (Rao, enlightened monks) or racial deities (Halflings and Dwarves, historically).

Erastil is the god of small towns, communities, and families, where the only good government is small government where you know your lord and mayor, and the laws are close to the people, not done by some distant arse sitting on a throne who doesn't give two cents about you.

It's about men and women taking care of their families, and neighbors taking care of one another against all the bad things the world throws at them, passing stuff down from one generation to the next.

The Hick 'barefoot woman in the kitchen' would be the most negative LN stereotype of Erastil, which is exactly what, say, a cleric of adabar, who is about BIG CITY government, would say disparagingly about them, and certainly a cleric of Asmodeus, whose misogyny is going to bleed through.

A LG male god of family and community who doesn't love and respect the wives who hold it together would be literally insane. Misogyny and treating women like baby breeders is Asmodeus' thing, although he's happy to paint a LG god who doesn't like him a whit with the same brush.

But, seriously, he's an LG god of nature and the hunt, who cares for the lands around him as fervently as the people who live there, respects druids and gets along with nature deities, without all the high-falutin' philosophy of most LG gods. That's EXTREMELY different then most LG gods, who tend to be about the great grand fight against Evil. Iomadae, for instance, is basically a knightly paladin clone god. Gotta have one, here you are.

Cayden is likely a product of the cities, but Erastil probably sees him as a prodigal son who creates a ruckus wherever he goes and needs to settle down with a good women he loves and raise a bunch of kids to temper his moods.

And it should be pointed out - Cayden's churches run a LOT of orphanages, and do raise those kids, and his taverns ARE a place where smaller communities come together. So, he and Erastil probably get along a lot better then either of them realize. Cayden's people help folk blow off steam and get back to doing their good work, and moreover are willing to pick up swords and fight for what's the right thing to do at a moment's notice.
That has a lot of value, and Erastil has no doubt noticed it. I don't doubt that beneath the surface, the two churches work together far, far better then most, even if the gods themselves are a bit prickly, with a Grandfather/Junior relationship that probably has a lot of good-natured sarcasm being heaved back and forth.


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And Rynjin, among others EXCORCIATED the devs for including such behavior in the AP, among other failures of the mythic rules.

It could be said that, with that incident as a focus, it soured the entire dev team on ever doing anything more expansive with the mythic rules. We'll be very, very lucky to ever get truly high level play out of the dev team again because of it.


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I do see Cayden as the god of adventurers on Golarion. Desna is about seeing and exploring new places, but Cayden is about having AN ADVENTURE while doing so. Lust for life and thrill of living that other gods just don't have in the same measure, and at the same time valuing that life in others.

Remember at the beginning of Lord of the Rings, when Frodo shouts out "I'm going on AN ADVENTURE!!!!!" That's Cayden.
A Desnan would have shouted, "I'm going on a JOURNEY!"
That's the difference.
Norgober, on the other hand, is the god of "I'm more clever then you". Thieves, assassins, poisoners, manipulators. He's the god of guildmasters and mercantilists, of those men who think raw intelligence and no moral scruples to get in the way of what they want is best. He's not a god of kings, he's the god of shadows behind thrones, intelligence operatives, guildmasters - those people who are sure that they are smarter then everyone else, even if they aren't stronger, and will get what they want in the end because of it.

This is very different from someone like Asmodeus, who is both strong and intelligent, and can act both openly and secretly because of it. Norgober is the patron of those who don't have that open strength, but will act when they think they've stacked the deck far enough in their favor. Some call it cowardice, others analytical, others opportunistic. In any event, with no moral scruples to stop them from getting what they want, and always going after weakness instead of strength.

Play Norgie would be hard as an opponent because it would be ruthless, intelligent, and without scruples. An opponent who doesn't want to fight you, but simply rob you blind, wipe out your friends and family when you can't defend them all, destroy your reputation, and then murder you with poison when you've sunk to the bitter depths of despair is not something for crossing blades with.

So, of course you'd rather choose another god, especially a demonic one who loves the thrill of combat! Norgie's type want to murder you, they don't want to FIGHT you. And that's a very different mindset to play.


RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Get the new Weapon Mastery book. There's a feat in there which allows the trait to stack and all slings to qualilfy for Warslinger, etc. Made specifically to facilitate a sling build.


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You get +1/2 level on all knowledge skills. Huge. 70 virtual skill points.

You get versatile performance, which turns your 6 skill points/level into effectively 14/level.

Human for racial bonus, FCB for +1/level, high Int, go to town.


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as class abilities?

Because melees don't get good things. You should know this by now!


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Perception should DEFINITELY be on a fighter's skill list. The ability to see and sense a target, measure them up, notice weak points, styles, hidden weapons, range of motion...good martial combatants are extremely sense-oriented. Especially anything with a ranged attack, or a class that will be undertaking bodyguard, hunting or sentry duties, all which fall into a fighter's paradigm.

perception is a basic survival skill for the non-magical. Saying it shouldn't be on a fighter's list is saying it shouldn't be on a rogue or ranger's list, either.

Spellcasters? Not so much. Why have perception when you can detect whatever faithfully?

As for healing, remember...magical universe. If exceptional healing is available, the fighter is butt stupid not to have developed SOMETHING to take advantage of it.


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RedDingo wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Bravery: You're not going to impress us with a +11 vs Fear save when historically you could spend a feat (Death Trance, Fearless) at level 1 or be a paladin at level 2 and be immune to fear. It's not even equal to a good Will save. That's ridiculous.

Part of the whole Paladin's schtick is that he's a more defensively oriented Martial Class. Bravery is not supposed to equal out to a "good" Will save. A good save has a base of +12 by end game. Bravery places puts the Will bonus in the non-existent margin between bad save progression and good. What that gives you is a decent chance at overcoming Will Save DCs for mind effects rather than a desperate prayer.


I LIKE the idea of passing a fear save and turning it into a morale bonus. But that's something that should kick in about 10th level, not end game.

Bravery hitting all mind-affecting is a level 6 ability, and still behind the immunities of a paladin. Note that Weapon master option now allows Bravery to all will and Weapon Training to reflex saves as options...

Hmmm...then perhaps it should be:

2nd level, he may spend 1 point of stamina to add his bravery bonus to Str, Dex and Con based skill checks. Fear effects that inflict Panicking, Frightened, or Cowering only inflict Shaken.

6th level, he can add this bonus to Will saves against all mind affecting effects. He can spend stamina to add the bonus to Charisma and Wisdom-based skill checks.

10th level, instead of being shaken, the fighter gains a morale bonus equal to his Bravery on his attack and damage rolls for the duration of the condition. Allies within 30ft receive a morale bonus equal to his Bravery on Will Saves against fear effects.

14th level, Allies within 30 ft receive a morale bonus on Will Saves against all mind affecting effect. The fighter may spend a point of stamina to apply his bonus to reflex saves.

18th level, Allies within 30 ft. receive a morale bonus to attack and damage rolls. Insight bonus to AC based on stamina...

Bravery should equate to an immunity to fear very, very quickly. You're a fighter. You're supposed to be BRAVE, not more inclined to run away then a mewling mage because some barbarian flexed his muscles at you.

You aren't going to have the Wisdom, Charisma or other stats to drive that will save into auto-success territory, unlike the Paladin, who is ALREADY immune, or the barb, who can buy up and keep stacking superstitious bonuses. But the very word implies fear does not affect you, and mental discipline.

You are not a Warrior. You are a fighter, the Olympians of melee. Of all of them, you are the most disciplined, the most hard-working, the most training intensive.
And yet, you're the easiest to subvert. Have you ever seen an Olympian with weak willpower? Those guys don't know when to quit. They are CHAMPIONS. Willpower IS their thing.

How bout this: level 2: as written, as a morale bonus vs fear.

level 6: Resolve - The stamina bonus to wis/cha checks can be non-sensical, if you're talking a long term check like diplomacy. Just have it apply.
Now, let him spend a point of stamina for the bonus to apply as typeless against all mind-affecting. That way, it stacks with morale bonus vs fear and becomes substantial VERY quickly.

Level 10: Valor - IF HE MAKES THE FEAR SAVE, he gets the morale bonus as Th/Dmg against the source of the fear effect (and is thus now an auto-scaling buff). If not, he ignores the fear. Spend Stamina for Reflex save improvement (which is a low level effect).

Level 14: 30 or 60 foot Aura of Resolve = MOrale bonus vs fear. All fear effects reduced by one step in this area. All Intimidation effects from the Fighter gain the Aura as a bonus, and the effect is upgraded by one.

Level 18: Aura of Valor - Allies get the morale bonus vs all mind-affecting and Reflex saves. If they make the save vs fear, they get the bravery bonus as th/dmg against the source of the fear effect. If they fail it, they are never more then shaken while inside his aura.

This turns fear effects into potential buffs as terror becomes warrior's pride and outrage. it's a very different method of neutralizing fear and allowing a potential group buff later in the game.

Note: Much of this will not stack with Bardsong, or Heroism/Greater heroism, or Rage, which is FINE, and quite the point. There's now more then one source of morale buffs in the party, and we don't WANT them to stack. We just want to have something we can give away. It's really a nice buff to lower level characters.

100% all the time morale buffs th/dmg are definitely NOT the way to go.


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Arakhor wrote:
Piling up the immunities makes for lazy class abilities though (the paladin is a notorious example of this).

If you don't have magical abilities, the only thing you can do is become immune or highly resistant to them, to counter them.

Which is exactly what the Fighter's shtick should be. Except that has gone to the paladin and the barbarian for magic in general, and to the ranger and rogue for the agility side of it (Evasion + Good Reflex). It doesn't have to be great immunities (Kirth uses the physical, non-magical ones of nausea, exhaustion and the like), but it should be something.

Or flat out Spell Resistance, if it comes down to that.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

The criticism is a bit excessive, especially when you consider how other similar classes from Paizo are designed.

The Ranger, one of the more standardized martial classes, says when you get Favored Enemies, Terrain, Combat Style Feats, etc. every time they increase, or grant a new option. This is reflected in classes like the Slayer with their Talents, Barbarians with their Rage Powers, Paladins with their Smite Evil uses/day, etc.

And these classes are the epitomy of the Martials, because they are: Full BAB. Decent to powerful saving throws. Intrinsic class features. Efficient. Synergistic. You name a positive thing, chances are those classes possess it.

The funny thing is? These same classes that, according to you, have all of these "blank spaces", are idealisms that the Fighter and Rogue classes should emulate, because what they are now is silly.

You might as well banish all martials if the concept of leveling up means you get something new every time. Improvements to existing options aren't as bad as you make it out to be; the Spells class feature is perhaps the most guilty culprit of an existing option being an improvement every time you level, without having to invest into it to make it extremely useful, and is perhaps the entire foundation for why Magic is so damn powerful, because it scales automatically, and it's an option that improves every single level you have with it.

Rangers don't get an improvement to Favored Enemy/Terrain - they get a new terrain or enemy, and ALLOCATE where that bonus goes.

Fighters can get a secondary group, but the bonus just goes up lockstep, and the new group is basically unimportant.
The 3rd and 4th are basically beyond mentioning.

Why don't they have the boost for Guide or ANimal Companion on the main table? Because it just elevates by level.

Why aren't spells on the main table? Because seeing the benefits of spells and as they level would make it obvious their benefits.
Why isn't the ability to use spell trigger devices spelled out as a benefit? It's huge, and it applies at level 1. It's actually an invisible feat all by itself.

Now Smites/day, correct, might not be spelled out. However, Smites elevate in TH/DMG and in frequency! Huge, huge. They are effectively just like spells. feats tend to be fixed benefits. Effectively, you can boost Smites with levels, with stats, and with feats...incredibly powerful. So each smite being called out is actually QUITE appropriate, given how powerful each is. In essence, each Smite is being treated like a spell, and given proper attention for its power.

And it's odd that Animal Companion/Mount isn't featured as a bonus on the main paladin schema, but weapon bond IS...when they are tradeoffs of the same power, no?

Rage Powers are much stronger then feats, scaling and powerful. They are being treated much like spells, too. Just like Smites, they can be raised by Stats, by Feats, and by they are essentially variant spells, not static things like feats are!

You'll find that rangers, paladins and barbs have far fewer 'empty spaces' then fighters do, simply because of all the 'spell table' things that are happening in addition as they level.

Fighters don't have ANY of that. Very few feats scale much, and certainly don't scale off of stats, level and other feats. So if rangers and paladins get to move their spellcasting to the side, fighters should as well, and stop treating '+1's'' as viable class features to an existing mechanic. That's like calling out every class level of a spellcaster as 'caster level +1"...inane.

When you start presenting fighter tables like you would a spellcaster's tables, you start seeing how far behind they really are.


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RedDingo wrote:

Cool. I've added more techniques to the list so please read and tell me what you guys think.

Anyways, my thoughts on the unchained fighter are that he must have versatility and staying power. I believe the fighter should start out as an above average specimen at first level but grows to increasingly super human the closer he gets to epic level. I also wanted to make it so the unchained fighter flexible. If you choose to take different type of Combat Training to mix and match, that should be as equally a valid choice as sticking to one type throughout.

With techniques, I wanted them to be themed around conscious skills and honed instincts. I carefully avoided any words that invoke the image of a berserker (ironic considering who I chose for the picture). Yes some of them were "poached" from the chained fighter archetypes so to speak, but there was precedent for that in the Unchained source book. The Unchained Monk allows you to add Ki Powers from the Qi Gong Monk list.

On your table of fighter abilities, remove all mention of powers that simply improve by level. It's like saying "FIreball 5d6, Fireball 6d6, Fireball 7d6".

I.e. things that are supposed to scale by level are NOT class features, they scale by level. Only if something new is given out (full speed in heavy armor), should mention of a class feature be noted.

This means delete all "Bravery +2 to +5" mentions, and simply mention it scales by level. Delete Weapon Training and armor training mentions beyond the first one unless they actually grant more then just another numeric bonus improvement (i.e. Armor training 3 and 4)

Put all Technique mentions into a separate list, just like you would put spellcaster spell progression. Mention it only the first level, and that he gains one every other level.

You will then notice you've a LOT of spaces that need filling up. FILL THEM UP. You've got room now for true versatility, leadership, saves, skills, movement and so forth options, now that you've removed the obstacles preventing you from seeing what the class automatically gets.

I saw no class features or techniques with recovery options, or any form of healing. The only immunity he gets is to fear, and at 19th? WTF? That's a level 2 immunity. The morale bonus is nice, but that's like a level 6-8 thing.

Fer Chrissake, just take the DR 5/- from the armor capstone and spread it out over armor training, please. I don't know why people think that should be a capstone ability.


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Your Dex score must be at least 20, of course, and Sleight of Hand Ranks at least 8.


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Neo2151 wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
UNCHAINED FIGHTER ** spoiler omitted **...


This Figher blows every other class out of the water. No martial can even compare, and even spell casters wouldn't be able to stop it with all the immunities and bonuses it's getting.
You would have to rebuild every class to be on-par with this power-monstrosity. ;)

Barbs with superstition and Paladins will still end up with better saves.

Still can't make magic items. Still can't USE many common magic items, like wands, without UMD.

Still no real healing ability.

The immunities are something a paladin can deal with by level 3, and fix for OTHER PEOPLE. The fighter gets to wait until 10th+ and gets immunity for himself alone.
And except for the fear, they are fort save effects, anyways.

Blows every other martial out of the water? I don't think so in the slightest. He finally DOES get some battlefield command, and that's really nice, however.


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RedDingo wrote:

Hey, who's to say that scrawny wizard wasn't putting in time learning how to wear armor and swing a mighty swing a sword while he was learning how to cast magic. I think proficiency is supposed to represent the bare minimum experience you need to perform competently with an item. Enough so that it doesn't hamper you to wield it.

And Lemmy kudos. You made a fighter that makes teamwork feats actually good along with a superhero archetype. I expect a shonen-themed monk next?

Because then he'd have weapon and armor profs at level 1, NOT a free spellbook and a bunch of cantrips, a free rank in Spellcraft, and several spells already IN that spellbook that he already learned.

If he was learning something other then magic, he'd start with something other then magic.

I REALLY hate how spellcasters get all these free passes on learning non-magical skills, as if spellcasting was something that took no time, effort or training at all.


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skill unlocks isn't a roguish depends on the skill. Heal is NOT something you expect a Rogue to want to Unlock...but you would an Expert.

Likewise, there's a handful of skills which are perfect skill unlocks...and the fighter is the class that would take them. (Rangers get magic. No skill unlocks for them!)

As for ANY skill...yeah, Rogues (and maybe Experts) should be the only classes that could unlock ANY skill. But fighters? there's definitely a few core ones that fighters should get.

Also, you need modifiers. Getting skills but sucking at them doesn't help you out much at all, in the end.


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Cerberus Seven wrote:
My Self wrote:

D&D 5E gave Fighters more feats (which are basically PF feat chains, and actually work), stat boosts, and regular attacks than anyone else. Perhaps we could take a hint from that or something?

What if Fighters could take an iterative with BAB = Fighter Level from first level? That would be a pretty nifty class feature.

Maybe Fighters would get some of those neat martial-like spells that casters get, as EX abilities. Dance of 100 cuts, dance of 1000 cuts, bladed dash, named bullet, etc.

Minor correction: 5E gave them more ability score boosts, which can (if the GM allows that optional system) be traded for feats. Important difference.

The base fighter abilities, while relatively few in number, are also pretty nice: 1d10 + level swift action self-heal once per short rest (an hour), an extra standard action once per short rest, the ability to reroll a failed saving throw several times a day, up to double the normal number of attacks in their attack action, and a combat style. They are ridiculously dangerous and tanky.

That martials and non-magical classes should get more stat boosts is blatantly true. If you don't have magic, you TRAIN MORE.

My fighter gets a +1 to his lowest physical and mental stats every 4 fighter levels. This means it doesn't affect his upside, which might cause balance problems, but covers his weaknesses nicely.


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You always PrC'd out of fighter because feats were no match for good PrC abilities.

You always PrC'd out of caster classes, because they never got class level abilities, and as long as you possessed full caster levels, you had everything you already wanted.

It's GOOD Paizo made PrC's less worthwhile, and the core classes better keepers.

But, you know, people still argue Fighter is 'too good' because you get a bonus feat at first level, when it doesn't even give you a TH/dmg bonus ability, unlike EVERY OTHER MARTIAL CLASS...


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At first level, the barbarian gets 2 more hp, 2 more skill points, multiple rounds of +2/+2 th/dmg with all weapons, +another 2 hp/level buff, +2 to will saves.

And 40' move.

You can use your first level feat to grab Additional Rage Power, get Superstitious and get an additional save bonus against all magic RIGHT NOW.

That's level ONE.

You want to present a combination from the fighter that is that powerful?
The fighter FINALLY gets a th/dmg buff at level 1! the horrors!
If the fighter as a dip is too strong, then the barbarian as a dip should be totally disallowed.

And the ranger! At first level, +4 skill points, a favored enemy you can tailor to the campaign, he can track, communicate with wild animals, and, most importantly...he can use a spell charge items with any spell on the ranger list!
Without investing in UMD! CLW wands for the endurance win, every time.
OH, and the good reflex save, just to drive the point in.

If we wait just one more level, he gets that same pre req ignoring combat feat of your choice that the fighter does at 1st.
And the paladin!
Even at first level, he can Smite his big bad foe for a big combat and defense bonus.
Best two save combo in the game.
Detect Evil at will. Who needs Perception?
And just ONE MORE LEVEL...and +Charisma to all saves! CHA CHING!
Dipping? They even have names for all the two level combos for dipping Paladins! ORadins Forever is, like, a chapterhouse!
And then, just like the Ranger, they can use all those wands with paladin spells. More CLWands for the win!

Dipping as an excuse to neuter the entire class, and make it suck from level 1?

PLEASE. He's finally making it WORTH PLAYING at level 1, and because someone else might dip it, you're opposed.


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Kirth Gersen wrote:


HD d10; BAB full; skill points: 4+Int mod/level
Good saves: Fort, Ref, Will (Making bravery apply to Will saves has always seemed like an inefficient means of addressing his poor will save.)

1: Combat Expertise, feat aptitude, war master's edge +1
2: Bonus feat, bravery I
3: Mettle, personal weapon +1
4: Bonus feat, stamina I, strong stomach I
5: Battlefield control (10 ft.), war master's edge +2
6: Bonus feat, bravery II, onslaught of blows
7: Combat mobility, personal weapon +2
8: Bonus feat, stamina II
9: Battlefield control (15 ft.), war master's edge +3,
10: Bonus feat, bravery III, tactical commander
11: Personal weapon +3, warlord
12: Bonus feat, strong stomach II
13: Superior battlefield control (20 ft.), war master's edge +4
14: Bonus feat, bravery IV, cheat the fog of war
15: Indomitable will, personal weapon +4
16: Bonus feat, supreme vital strike
17: Battlefield control (25 ft.), war master's edge +5
18: Bonus feat, supreme warlord
19: Personal weapon +5
20: Bonus feat, desperate resolve

** spoiler omitted **...

In contrast to the above, Kirth's fighter should actually be formatted like so:

1: Combat Expertise, feat aptitude, Bonus feat progression, war master's edge (+1, +1/4 levels)
2: bravery (fear level -1, -1/4 levels)
3: Mettle, personal weapon (+1, +1/4 levels)
4: stamina I, strong stomach I
5: Battlefield control (10 ft, +5 ft/4 levels))
6: onslaught of blows
7: Combat mobility
8: stamina II
10: tactical commander
11: warlord
12: strong stomach II
13: Superior Battlefield Control
14: Bravery (Immune to fear), cheat the fog of war
15: Indomitable will
16: supreme vital strike
18: supreme warlord
20: desperate resolve

Feat Progression:
1) Bonus Combat Feat
2) Bonus Combat Feat
4) Bonus Combat Feat
etc etc/

This method of laying out the class clearly shows where you get something and where you do not.

It also clearly equates the 'extra stuff' of bonus feats to getting something akin to a caster list, and clearly shows off all the holes where you don't get squat for bonus feats. If that was even minor spellcasting, you'd have complainers wondering why they didn't get more or better spells.

Bravery and strong stomach could even potentially be 'eliminated' as per-level abilities. The difference is that they scale similar to a paladin's mercies, except they aren't as strong. Where a paladin is immune to fear straight off, Kirth's fighter gradually gets more resistant to fear.

Where the paladin becomes able to cure conditions with his mercies, the fighter becomes immune to conditions with strong stomach, and those conditions become stronger, and the immunity thus stronger, with levels.

Plus, he fills in a LOT of holes with other, brand new, spiffy abilities, that are just not scaling numbers (i.e. higher caster levels). He can move a 14th level ability to 13 and plug one hole without any problems.

Still has gaps way up top, however.

Seriously, treating an extra +1 like a whole new class ability means that every 4 levels, any caster who can cast Greater magic Weapon gets ANOTHER whole class ability. Riiiiiiight.

Sorry, no.

So, guess what?
Kirth's progression still has some holes in it, once you remove the scaling abilities properly.
His bonus feat scale still has 9 holes in it to be filled, clearly gaping, waiting for Something.

But it's a whole lot better then that first one.

Anyone who gets suckered into laying out the fighter class like it's in the Core Books should turn around and re-write it properly. Class abilities that scale or don't scale get ONE LINE.

IF you get a bunch of bonus feats, they go on a separate table just like spells would.

And then look at all the bloody holes that are left, and wonder why the fighter is weak.


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Arakhor wrote:
Some of the abilities are not combat-oriented, I agree, but you're complaining about the ranger is stealing the fighter's glory and then go and give the fighter an even better version of the ranger's combat style is not the way to go about it. The fighter doesn't need better ways to fight, after all.


Because the fighter is the weapons guy, and the ranger is the Enemy Guy.

The ranger should never, ever have encroached on the fighter's turf. He got the feats; he got them earlier; and he got to ignore pre-reqs.

He broke every rule of class balance and you're siding with the ranger? The ranger broke the rules first.

The rangers gets MAGIC.
And THEN gets thrice the skill points of the no-magic fighter.

I'm sorry, there is NO EXCUSE for that kind of lackadaisical class balance.

The fighter is the ONLY Full melee class that basically doesn't get magical abilities. Of COURSE it should have a heap of skill points. Of COURSE it should have good saves. It doesn't have Magic to take care of those things for it!

The brawler should never have needed to exist. the simple existence of the martial mastery archetype fighter makes it very, very plain that the brawler's martial ability to get feats is a blatant attempt to give the fighter some flexibility in his load out.

THE BRAWLER SHOULD NOT NEED TO EXIST. It should be a two feats that a fighter can take. That's it. Martial Mastery should be part of the fighter class.

Spell Sunder already exists for the fighter. Except it's dwarf only and clearly inferior to what Barbarians get. Except Barbarians get supernatural powers, and Fighters get no magical powers at all. You are complaining that a no-magic class has an anti-magic ability? Double standards much? Feh.


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My Self wrote:

So wait- your fighter looks like this:

4+INT skills/level

Lvl - Fort/Ref/Will - Features
- 1 -- 2 / 0 / 0 -- Bonus Feat
- 2 -- 3 / 0 / 0 -- Bonus Feat, Armor Training 1
- 3 -- 3 / 1 / 1 -- Superior Saves 1
- 4 -- 4 / 1 / 1 -- Bonus Feat, Weapon Training 1
- 5 -- 4 / 1 / 1 --
- 6 -- 5 / 2 / 2 -- Bonus Feat, Armor Training 2, Superior Saves 2
- 7 -- 5 / 2 / 2 --
- 8 -- 6 / 2 / 2 -- Bonus Feat, Weapon Training 2
- 9 -- 6 / 3 / 3 -- Superior Saves 3
- 10 - 7 / 3 / 3 -- Bonus Feat, Armor Training 3
- 11 - 7 / 3 / 3 --
- 12 - 8 / 4 / 4 -- Bonus Feat, Superior Saves 4, Weapon Training 3
- 13 - 8 / 4 / 4 --
- 14 - 9 / 4 / 4 -- Bonus Feat, Armor Training 4
- 15 - 9 / 5 / 5 -- Superior Saves 5
- 16 - 10/5 / 5 -- Bonus Feat, Weapon Training 4
- 17 - 10/5 / 5 --
- 18 - 11/6 / 6 -- Bonus Feat, Armor Training 5, Superior Saves 6
- 19 - 11/6 / 6 --
- 20 - 12/6 / 6 -- Bonus Feat, Weapon Training 5

Actually, you have the format all wrong.

Each class ability is unique, scaling is NOT a unique ability.

So actually, his fighter looks like this:

Lvl - Fort/Ref/Will - Features
- 1 -- 2 / 0 / 0 -- Bonus Feats Progression
- 2 -- 3 / 0 / 0 -- Armor Training (+1, +1/4 levels)
- 3 -- 3 / 1 / 1 -- Superior Saves (+1 /3 levels)
- 4 -- 4 / 1 / 1 -- Weapon Training (+1/4 levels)
- 5 -- 4 / 1 / 1 --
- 6 -- 5 / 2 / 2 -- Armor Training (heavy armor movement)
- 7 -- 5 / 2 / 2 --
- 8 -- 6 / 2 / 2 --
- 9 -- 6 / 3 / 3 --
- 10 - 7 / 3 / 3 --
- 11 - 7 / 3 / 3 --
- 12 - 8 / 4 / 4 --
- 13 - 8 / 4 / 4 --
- 14 - 9 / 4 / 4 --
- 15 - 9 / 5 / 5 --
- 16 - 10/ 5 / 5 --
- 17 - 10/ 5 / 5 --
- 18 - 11/ 6 / 6 --
- 19 - 11/ 6 / 6 --
- 20 - 12/ 6 / 6 --

If we treat the bonus feat as something akin to spellcasting, that means it should actually have its own table.

1 Bonus feat
3 Bonus feat
5 Bonus feat
7 Bonus feat
9 Bonus feat
11 Bonus feat
13 Bonus feat
15 Bonus feat
17 Bonus feat
19 Bonus feat
And as you can see, this is a pathetic chassis for any melee class.

This build solves NOTHING. It gives the fighter virtually nothing.

I'm sorry, but I do not consider this anywhere NEAR a serious attempt at a fighter build.


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Commandments of Optimization: thou shalt not give up caster levels, for caster levels are the mightiest of class abilities.

There are several other commandments, but this one is so important, it's on the tablet TWICE.


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IF you make Craft DC requirements for magic items, crafting skills become a LOT more valuable.

I.e. making this magic item requires a masterwork check of 20+ Spellcraft DC.

And then make it so non-feat, non-rank, non-stat bonuses only give you time accelerants, not Masterwork quality boosts. I.e. competence, insight, luck, circumstance, aid another bonuses help you work faster, not BETTER.

Then, you can maybe start awarding skill bonuses by class that help with those checks to a level that other classes are naturally inferior to them. A fighter that adds his weapon training to Making Weapons check is naturally better then other classes at that task, etc. What if he then gets to add his Expertise bonus, too?


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bk007dragon wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
Limiting the game to CRB only, and limiting magic item access, hurts martials more than it hurts casters.

On core rulebook access. Actually I find some of the most powerful caster builds use feats from non core-sources and they use traits.

On magic items. The ability to make items and not be restricted to what the DM will allow is a source of broken characters of all classes. Their is a reason why Pathfinder Society does not allow item crafting.

CoDzilla is one of the most enduring statements of caster-martial disparity ever made. And its all because of core.

Core hugely favors spellcasters. It is not even a question. PF actually has toned down a lot of the spellcaster set even more with time. The only build I can think of that really gets a boost from traits is the evocation direct damage build, which is really the weakest spellcaster build you an actually take!

In Core, you have: All the Summoning spells; all the shapechanging spells; all the spells that let a divine caster play martial; Time Stop; wish; teleport; flight and other movement modes; heals, buffs, and Debuffs; crowd control spells; spells that sub for magic items (and thus allow independence from same); item creation feats.

Those are the things that form the core of the disparity. Not Splat books.


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In 1e, for druids, I druids were limited to exactly 3 forms - one bird, one mammal, one reptile for their entire lives. That was a BIIIIG shift from what is available today. And you couldn't pick a form with more HD then your own, so if you wanted a brown bear, you were waiting a lot longer then someone who wanted a weasel to use.

Alter Self didn't grant any racial abilities, nor technically did Poly Self, although the latter could give you animal forms and movement modes.

But really, it's the size changes, move modes and extra senses that can really start to make morphing strong. Morphing BY ITSELF can be equal to every other form of spellcasting, done correctly. If you look at narrative history, morphers basically only do that...and they are very good at JUST being morphers.

So, really, while it's an iconic wizard ability, it's so powerful that it could be the ONLY wizard ability someone had.


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77. That's just not possible: The adventurer has a healthy sense of the metanature of the environment and can apply a Greater Dispel Magic at his adventurer level as a full round Bluff Action. In short, he can enforce the laws of physics on a magical effect for a short time by convincing the universe it can't happen.

78, It's a magical world: The adventurer has a healthy sense of the absurdity sometimes inherent in the rules, and can overrule any protests that something is violating the laws of physics with a disparaging remark and successful Intimidation check (DC 20) against the quavering laws of Physics, arguing that a mundane effect that is clearly impossible under natural laws is nonetheless successful because 'magic, duh.' "Are you an idiot? Of course I can jump fifty feet without a problem, run a mile in two minutes, and punch through a brick wall with my pinkie. It's a magical world, duh! Why would I need a spell?"


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Reminds me of Age of Worms. There's a potion you can find which gives you permanent +3 Nat AC and black dragon scales.

Non-reproducible, of course.


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Master of Shadows wrote:

It isn't rules lawyering. It is simply the way the rule was written, and it was even written quite clearly using unambiguous language. What we're doing has far less to do with lawyering than it does to do with a willingness to embraces the changes brought about in a new edition of the rules. An edition that has already been proven time and again that it has no qualms about discarding the old ways.

The confusion surrounding smite evil has very little to do with the language it was written with, and everything to do with a stubborn refusal to let go of the old ways of doing things in favor of a newer and better way.

To quote another great master:
"You must unlearn what you have learned."


Rules lawyering is interpreting the language of the rules in a way they were not meant to be used.

NOT 'just taking the language and applying it unambiguously.'

This is indeed rules lawyering. There's no indication in ANY iteration of D&D that Smite Evil is supposed to attack with no-hit spells, and it's even kind of a stretch to think it stacks on ANY spells, period.

I fully expect that if "Smite" were defined out, it would include the phrase 'weapon using an attack roll' and not any form of spell or magic.

Because that's always been past intentions, and I see no verbiage that in ANY stretch leads me to believe they wanted smite damage added to fireballs.

Likewise, it's not going to stack on independent magic missiles, even if it did work, unless they were all at different targets, meaning you're spending multiple smites. It would function exactly like Manyshot...once per instance of spell per target, possibly per round.

Furthermore, we would now have to have an entirely new set of rules to determine how it interacts with DoT effects. Does a Wall of Fire suddenly do more damage once the Smite is declared? What about on successive rounds after the initial smite? How would it interact with Fire SHield's defensive damage? What about Acid Arrow's 'bleed' damage effect every round?

None of these rules exist, yet would have to if Smite was meant to dovetail with spellcasting. Surely something as simple as 'is the additional damage counted every round the spell does damage' would have been answered.

So, Smite = damage dealt with a physical weapon, requiring an attack roll.


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I've never heard of Smite ever being added to anything that didn't involve a melee roll to hit.

So, no, I wouldn't even allow it on a magic missile, or a Holy Smite spell, or a Fireball.

A magic missile spell that was a touch attack would be thematically similar to Manyshot. You only add Smite once to ManyShot. It would be ONE SPELL, even if you made multiple attacks to hit, and all the attacks at once are still considered one attack instance.

So, primary answer is: You can't Smite Evil with Magic Missiles.

If you were to use Scorching Ray, which does require an attack roll, you'd follow the Manyshot's one spell, you get one instance of Smite damage per spell.

Note that Magic Missile is ruled rather stupidly that you can only affect one 'target' of the spell with bonus damage. I personally let any bonus damage apply on a 'per spell' basis, so Magic Missile is treated no differently from Fireball.

But that's me. I don't want to have Magic Missile be one of a handful of spells treated differently because you can have multiple targets that aren't part of a true AoE and get treated differently.

So, for instance, a Banespell'd spell that does +2d6 dmg against Orcs? I'd totally let +2d6 dmg happen to each separate orc that got hit with a magic missile, instead of just one.

But if you targeted all 5 missiles on one orc, he'd still take just +2d6. Once per spell.


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The default AC bonuses from items add up to +20 or so, with some misc thrown in (+5 armor enhancement, +5 Deflect, +5 Nat Armor, +3 from Dex, +2 from other). So anyone and everyone is going to enjoy an absolute minimum of +20 to AC by level 20.

Generally, it will be higher, since base gear improves, inherent bonuses kick in, and spell buffs stack on. Generally, AC in the 40-50 range is totally achievable without going overboard.

Only the most powerful of high level monsters are going to have TH bonuses that can actually deal with that level of AC routinely. IF you have poor AC at high levels, you need to invest more defensively. That's pretty much all there is to it.


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WBL has the additional problem of casters being able to supply their own gear via spells.

Ergo, they can get magic arms and armor and protection without needing arms and armor and amulets and rings. They can just cast the spells.

So, class abilities that shrink the cost of getting such things should be part of non-caster classes.

I'm reminded of the critique I sent in for the soulknife, where I pointed out that the ability to make your own +10 weapon, customizable by day, was, in effect, also a +200k expansion of your WBL, which meant they could get a crapload of other gear where a standard class still needed to buy a magic weapon, and what were they doing to counterbalance it?

In the end, nothing.


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And they can make bullets with Your Name On Them. Lots of bullets.


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Cranefist wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

If you are not playing by the rules, you are not playing Pathfinder. Therefore discussion that is not about Pathfinder, has little value in this...

Rule Zero Son, Play the game how you want. That's the real pathfinder - not the intellectual masturbation of shoehorning narrative into a grid system. It is more Pathfinder than what you are talking about.

If the rules are giving you a problem, like wizards are too strong, you need to gloss some things over or improvise.

yes, little grasshopper, we realize you are not playing Pathfinder.

As this is a rules-based forum for Pathfinder, little grasshopper, could you find another place to comment?


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Cranefist...let us paraphrase for you.

"I recently played a 6th level martial. I put 15 in his Charisma and spent a 'general feat' on Skill focus: Diplomacy." I then bought a magic item and used some skill points on a non-class skill to buy disguise ranks.

I marginalized the hell out of the wizard, who obviously didn't know his spells could be used to do what I had to pay to do, and even had more skill points then I did.

In low level group fight, I did just as good as any other melee, because in AP's full attacks dominate, and archery is the only way you can full attack all the time at low levels, so I was an archer!

I'm sure I could fail Will saves half the time like a fighter, but I could play 10 other classes and fail them half as often or less, so I did.

A year or two ago I had another martial. I spent some of my money on a cloak of dimension door, and two general feats on step up and combat reflexes. He'd appear next to the enemy, WAIT TIL THE NEXT ROUND (since he had no actions left after Dimension Door) unless they tried to retreat, and for some reason my DM didn't full attack me to death until it was my turn again and I could full attack, while my wizard buddy still hadn't decided on any effective courses of action, possibly because I was in the middle of the enemy he wanted to fireball or Web or Evard's Tentacles or COnfuse or whatnot."

Compare what you wrote to what the experienced people are actually reading.


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Malwing wrote:

@Aelryinth, do you have any written down details of your house rules? Or just more details about the most impactful ones?

I've at least twice in this thread seen variant multiclass as free for fighters, how has that worked out?

The above is the gist of the major ones.

A lot of it is worldview/campaign view. People are not stupid, they know how the world works, and they work with the rules.

For the multiclassing rules, it's pretty simple.

1) The basis is gestalt.
2) Racial class is part of the gestalt.
3) Choose your primary class. You don't get to change it after level 3, so make sure it's the one you want long term.
4) Primary classes operate as norm. I've got the FIghter class statted out, and a bunch of techniques. Rogue I've got a rough outline, but nothing formal.
5) Secondary multiclass options: You don't get the level 1 automatic proficiencies of the class, you have to buy them. You can only spend the skill points on class skills. You can only spend the stat point from levels on the primary class stat (Str/Dex for Melee, Wis/Dex for monk, Int for Wizard, etc). Take the best of saves for concurrent levels. Take the best of BAB for concurrent levels. If you take a class with higher HD, add +1 HP per HD size it is larger then your largest other Hit Die (So a wizard taking Rogue levels would add +1 HP, Fighter +2).
Since spells share spell slots, caster levels for all spells are unchanged (Wiz/6 cleric/1 still can cast all spells at 6th level, stats permitting). You still need stats to advance in level (If you've Wis/13, you can't cast higher then CL 3 divine spells, for instance).

--The 'ceiling' rules of Racial/3, First Ceiling 6th, Second Ceiling 10th, and Final Ceiling 20th give clear indication of cutoff points of power, and you can easily play an EC 6, 10 or 11+ Campaign using them.
By allowing you to get half your levels +1 in other classes, you can always keep improving and adding new tricks, but you're never going to rival another class in what they can do.
You can even advance in NPC classes (Expert is common, Noble less so).

Masteries: Masteries are the 'feats you can buy'. They cost both time and gold. It's generally assumed you're going to buy 3 Mastery Advances /2 levels at a bare minimum. Masteries are tied to Skill Ranks, BAB or Caster level, and usually have a Feat Pre-Req. They let you pick up things like Favored Enemy fighting bonuses, extra metamagic feats, or bonuses to skills (Both +'s and extra deeds).

Down Time: Down time has a wide variety of things that are assumed to be automatically filled.

Casters' down time is spent researching the next bundle of spells they want to master. Many spells and Domains map to skill Ranks of various sorts. So Casters end up spending their skill Ranks on things to support their spellcasting.
For Arcane Casters, this is mostly Knowledge skills.
For Domains, this is often Craft/Profession skills.
For Minstrels, this is usually Perform skill variants. For Bards (the druidic version) this is more knowledge based - you are a performer or a recorder of tales, not both!

Reserve Casting and Crafting: A Caster must have full Valences (slots) to craft magic items. If even one slot is expended, he's out of balance and cannot Craft.
He can fill an expended slot back up with energy using Meditation, but cannot recast that slot without at least an eight hour delay, and his Moment of Renewal passing (typically midnight, dawn, dusk, or noon).
He can use Reserve casting out of that slot.

Reserve Casting comes about by Tyranny of Rep Counts, i.e. practice, practice, practice. Idle and random spellcasting has no impact on Reserve Casting...time must be scheduled and Valences expended precisely to advance REserve Casting. Therefore, you only need to track the numbers and days you actually want to spend to get better Reserve Casting.

I used the 3E Reserve Castings as guidelines for when you could access Reserve Casting, but added moderate improvements such as range to most of the attack spells. Reserve Casting is either full concentration or fire and forget battle magic, for the most part.

To access Reserve Casting, you must spend the time and money on the Mastery for the training, or blow a feat on it bypass this step.

To start Reserve Casting, you must cast suitable spells in the following array: 1000 spell levels for level 1, including 500 spells of the minimum qualifying level (which could easily add up to more then 1000 spell levels.). This allows you first level Reserve Casting, fire away all day! Cantrips do NOT count.
Second level takes 2000 spell levels, including at least 500 level 2 spells.
Third level requires 4000 appropriate spell levels, including at least 500 level 3 spells.
Fourth level requires 8000 appropriate spell levels, including at least 500 level 4 spells.
Fifth Level requires at least 16,0000 appropriate spell levels, including at least 500 level 5 spells.

Thus, if you want to cast Fireball Reserve, which makes a 5's radius fireball at 30' + 5' per caster level away:
It's Reserve Requirement is Fire/3, meaning you need to have an uncast level 3 fire spell minimum in memory to use it. (advantage, sorcerors!)
You need to cast at least 500 level 3 Fire spells to satisfy the Power Requirement.
You need to cast at least 1000 spell levels of fire magic (which the above also satisfies).
and then you can cast a 1d6 fireball reserve all day.

To advance it, you need to cast another 2000 levels of fire magic, including at least 500 2nd level spells, and now your Reserve is 2d6.

To advance the Mastery, you must use the Reserve an equal amount of times to the spell level you are at. Thus, you must use Fire Reserve/0 at least 1000 times (about three hours doing nothing but) to advance it to Mastery/1, and actually getting your first viable Fireball Reserve.

If you blow a feat on a Reserve instead, you can bypass the Initial Power Buy, and Initial Practice (it is considered to be already done in Down Time), and you start with a level 1 Reserve.
If your Reserve is a Devoted Domain, you also bypass the Initial Power Buy and Initial Practice. So, a cleric with the Healing Domain, a level 2 Cure Spell slotted, who pays for the Mastery/1, can immediately start using Healing Reserve. However, she must still pay for ALL Rep Counts to advance it, unlike a Feat Spender (i.e. 3000 Cure spell levels, at least 500 2nd level spells, and cast Healing Reserve at least 3000 times).

Advancing Reserves is done very much like Crafting. You must have no expended slots, you must prepare the slots for casting, and then you expend them one after another. The Rep Counts of the Reserve itself also need to be done in chains, with no actual spellcasting interrupting them.

Crafting: Crafting requires an expenditure of the actual spell(s) used in the item everyday as part of the process (no getting around it if you are a Caster). Furthermore, if making a charged item, you must expend spell levels that add up to the total number of spell levels in the item, with a minimum spell level equal to the highest level spell. Extra power from higher spell levels is 'wasted' if expended this way (i.e. spending a 4th level spell to charge up a CSW wand).

Thus, you can't expend a CLW and six hours and suddenly have 50 charges of Cure Light Wounds. You actually have to expend 50 spell levels to fully charge up the wand, giving an advantage to higher level Casters.
Every Crafting attempt takes a minimum of 1 hour. So, if you can't fully charge something, it still takes a minimum of an hour to build up, imbue, and temporarily seal the item.
There is no partial charging. Fixed items have fixed points at which they can be sealed. Before then, they are incomplete and unusable. Likewise, restoring charges to a partially used item is is a permanent item until the last charge is gone and its matrix totally collapses, at which point the whole either collapses to dust, or is available to re-enchant from scratch.


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There's a bunch of house rules for me and mine, hmm...

1) I don't use most advanced classes, those would mostly just be archetypes, and I don't use most archetypes, those are just a couple feats.

2) The Fighter was totally redone to bring him inline with paladin/ranger levels of power. He gets recovery powers, warlord ability, followers, and skill boosts.
The Rogue is to follow suit.
Stamina is a 'meh' thing. Skill unlocks have the flavor I wanted, but skills still need to be repriced and revalued upwards.

3) Defenses against magic, including immunities, are far more common and easier to purchase. This is especially true in cities and hardpoints, meaning skills are far, far more valuable in civilized, urban areas. Spellcasters run across personal and AoE zones of immunity and anti-magic and dispels all the time.
Anti-Flying and Anti-Dimensional magic are standard protection for almost all settlements.
Corpse burning using Vivic fire to foil necromancy and undead creation is a standard ceremonial thing and responsibility of churches.

4)Brought back 3.5 Reserve Casting, which gives Casters an 'all-day' option.

5) Use Health and Soak. Health can be healed by Reserve HEaling, Soak is healed by time, Curing Magic can cure both. Soak is explicitly called 'martial magic' and is expressly pointed out as why high level characters can survive ridiculous damage, i.e. it is recognized for what it is.
Health comes from physical reality and magical reinforcement of the body. Soak comes from trained class levels.

6) Use Racial levels as the default 'class' for most races. Really simplifies NPC's. By stacking 'trained' levels with racial levels, you get a more solid foundation, and draw a line between the two.

7)Many proficiencies are gained only at level 1 to reflect the fact you've been spending years getting them, and must be purchased afterwards. For instance, Martial Weapons Proficiency is a feat you must take, and then you must spend skill points to get the weapon you want.
Starting weapons and armor profs adjusted by class.

8) For Fighters and Rogues, Feats have vastly expanded uses (esp fighters). Expertise, for instance, is an extremely powerful, versatile feat. Feat chains are compressed and simply level with the character. The standard of power for Rogues/Fighters is that every feat they take with class abilities should be equal to a good Rage Power.

9)Being non-magical is a very viable thing, esp. against magical creatures and casters.
The standard Human Race is Homo Sapiens Primos, and has no magical ability. People with the ability to use non-martial/non-rune magic are called 'Powered', and it is assumed their ability comes from something mucking about in their genetics in the past (i.e. via interbreeding or experimentation).
Powered Humans do not normally have Powered children unless the other parent is non-human, or powerful ceremonial magic is used to change them.
Most other races are innately magical and are all potentially Powered.

10) Martial classes get extra stat points to reflect their continuous training. Monks and fighters get the most. The ability to self-enchant magical weapons and armor by Naming them is part of all martial magic.

There is a clear line between Casters, who use spells, and Heroes, who use Skills/BAB. Since the latter is usable by basically anyone, they are far more popular and common.
3rd level is the 'racial ceiling', and where 90% of common races never pass.
6th level is the 'first ceiling', and where 99% of common races never pass, simply multi-classing instead.
10th level is the 'Second Ceiling', and only 1/1000 people ever rise beyond it (also multi-classing to gain further power). Most 'high-level' people are Tens with multi-classes.
20th Level is the 'Final Ceiling', and stepping past it involves becoming Eternal.
Levels are understood and are a known thing, deciphered by analyzing how Casters level, the effect on Valences, the resultant increase in spiritual ability, and comparing such to other individuals.

11) Making magic items is either rune-based with skills, or caster-based via levels.
Magic items need certain levels of craftsmanship to be made, typically 20+ Caster level of effect. SO, to make an item with a minimum caster level of 9 (like a +3 sword), you need a Mastercraft check of DC 29.
High level Mastercraft checks by non-magical crafters get more and more valuable, and help satisfy the 'gold required' side of things. Thus, a DC 30 Profoundly Crafted item has a minimum GP value of 5500 when used in making a magic item, and will take that long to make based on price.

Bonuses of any type to Crafting cannot exceed the Crafter's skill Ranks in that SKill (i.e. no +10 Competence bonus for 5 Ranks in a skill).
Ranks represent Knowledge of a skill. Feats represent a focus on the skills. Stats represent Talent. Masteries represent intense training. Class bonuses represent a form of synergistic understanding. Only feats, stats, ranks, Masteries, and class bonuses count towards Profound Crafting. All other bonuses only affect the speed of the crafting (how fast you work).
Skill Ranks are a form of martial magic and can break physics at higher levels. Likewise, without sufficient Ranks, some things are just not doable regardless of your modifier.

12) Fabricate = 1 day of crafting per casting, and must roll the check. It cannot make Profoundly Crafted items (i.e. DC 21 mastercraft and higher). Fabricated items are extremely generic and similar and can be recognized for what they are by anyone with 3 or more Ranks in an appropriate skill, having little to no artistic value.

13) Dispel Magic can take control of Summoned creatures; dispel them home; or simply free them from control (which often turns them on their Summoner instantly). Calling Creatures definitely puts your name Out There, and can have dire consequences if abused.
Addendum: Efreeti and other Genies are perfectly aware of the value of Wishes and are simply not allowed to barter them freely with mortals, and cannot benefit directly or indirectly from any sort of Wishes made on their behalf.

14) Counterspell exists as a universal spell of its own and works against all schools, making counterspelling a viable option.

15) multi-school magic is possible. Arcane healing is possible (using skill ranks and Masteries).

16) Opposition Schools/bloodlines for arcane casters are barred. Ditto many opposition domains for deities.

17) Star magic patterns that use all 8 schools are accessible by generalist magi, and grant bonus caster levels, as opposed to extra spells.

18) Masteries are purchased skills/powers that reflect training in specific things often associated with class levels (mechanics not entirely worked out). Anything with training naturally favors Fighters and Rogues.

19) Path of War-style 'martial magic' exists, and is the power behind many Fighter Techniques and Masteries.

20) Stats limit levels. You must have an ability score of 10+Class level to reach that level, in an appropriate Stat for your class.

21) Multi-classing is in parallel, not stacking. It is limited to half your current level, round down, +1. The cost of one level is always what it would cost your next highest level. Spell slots do not stack, they are combined (you'd cast cleric and wizard spells from the same pool of spell slots), but bonus spells are extra. Skill points can only be spent on class skills. Higher Hit Dice just give a couple bonus hit points.

22) Prepared Casters have Int as the limit of Spells Known by level, and so have to pick what spells they want in their books. Their downtime training is automatically assumed to always be researching new spells and prayers to expand their repertoires. Thus, no class has unlimited Spells Known.
Extra spells can be learned as Rituals read directly from spell books that cost time and money to learn and use, and are not usable in combat.

23)Battle-magic is faster then 'normal' magic (typically, evocations and abjurations, some illusions). Most normal magic is a full attack or full round action.

24) Your Summonings dying in battle mean they are unavailable for usage until the next day. Summonings must be statted up with the Names used to call on them, or are unavailable for use (researching avatar names is one of the downtime things Casters do).
You can advance a Summoning up in power using the Animal Companion rules and a higher level spell. once you do so, however, you cannot drop it back down.
Your Summonings do recall how you treat them from spell to spell, and will respond accordingly to you. They are compelled to serve, they usually do not WISH to serve. Thus, Summoners are also called 'slavemages'.

25) Most (good/neutral)churches have accepted public responsibilities, and adventurer priests are expected to share those goals. The churches usually dominate their areas of concern.
Goood religions use non-violent means to resolve differences, especially between one another, and this extends to Good Outsiders (War in Heaven simply does not happen.)
Doctrinal differences between Neutral/Lawful branches of churches are usually the result of regional customs and non-important, or outside interference, and rapidly set right to minimize conflict among the faithful.
Churches with evil and/or unconcerned with the public agendas are usually not popular. They may be feared, but veneration is rare unless they utterly dominate the area. With anti-magical Forsaken being a thing, oppressing a population with magic takes a LOT of magic.

26) The alignment forces are known and understood to be cosmic forces of their own that surpass those of deities, in the same way as the elemental forces are the foundation of the material universe, the alignments are foundations of the spiritual universe.

27) Ceremony/Rituals where casters band together to create higher caster level effects are quite common, and the biggest reasons Caster Guilds and Churches come together.

28) Divine Domains Dominate: A Divine Caster wielding a spell from a Domain of his Patron Deity will always be stronger then a non-Domain caster doing so from personal power. This usually takes the form of automatic Dispels and automatic Improved Counterspells against non-Domain spellcasters, or just plain higher Caster Levels.

Admittedly, this isn't all caster/martial disparity, but it means that it IS very different from a core campaign, especially default assumptions of what Reality Is.


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kyrt-ryder wrote:

Very well said Aelryinth. I'd like to nominate you to start the 'lets make martials good' thread and suggest you include that post in it [spoilered if necessary for space reasons.]

EDIT: I must note my personal disagreement with the antimagic clause though. I agree there should be a great deal in the world that interferes with particular magics [like how Kirth's ruled that a certain depth of solid earth prohibits teleportation in his game] but flat antimagic zones go a little too far IMO.

Dimensional movement is freaking terrifying in RL concept.

You have no doors that cannot be bypassed, walls are ineffective, armies can march and attack instantly from anywhere, attacks can strike out of nowhere to anywhere, anytime.
Nobody in their right mind wants someone else to be able to use a movement mode they can't control. This is especially true in areas with concentrations of military/political power, or people's homes. The idea that a thief can just blink into your house past your locks and walk off with everything is just Dumb. Every thief would take the option. Nobody with sense would allow it.

Likewise, shutting down ALL MAGIC in areas is the only way to be safe. You cannot have the Commander in Chief subject to ANY FORM of magical attack. The whole White House would be under an A-M shell. Ditto Congress. Portable Shells would spring up anytime world leaders visited. There are too many attack spells from ALL schools of magic, you have to shut them ALL down to be safe.

And the fact is, once you have a Perm shell in's there FOREVER. It doesn't cost anything to maintain. Just pay for it once, and it's there for millennia.

Which means defenses will naturally stack up over time and proliferate like mad as the money is spent. They don't naturally go away, and by their nature are harder to get rid of then most spells. If you use Ritual Rules to boost the Caster levels, getting rid of Permanent defenses like that is nigh impossible, because cooperating on dispels is far more likely to be interfered with and take longer then cooperating on raising defenses.

In short, if you are perfectly okay with a Caster flying above a party, sending down spells while protected by fickle winds and Summoning minions atop them while cackling at the futility of your sword and arrow users being unable to harm him, then when those casters walk into the throne room facing twenty orc berserkers and the whole is under an anti-magic shell, they shouldn't be GD complaining that the shoe is on the other foot...because that is exactly what I would do were I that GD orc chief.

I could totally see a high level Rogue or Fighter living their life inside a personal anti-magic shell and barely realizing it is present. But damn, wouldn't every Caster they come in contact with be terrified of them?

And that's how it SHOULD BE.


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IF you want to address the 'problem' with martials, you MUST MUST MUST do ALL of the following.
All of them. Not SOME of them.

1) Make 100% sure they are the best in martial combat.
No ifs, ands or buts. If some Gated creature, Summoned baddie, or buffed AComp is better then having a true martial around, then ALL of those options need nerfing. If Combat Cleric, Wildshaper Druid and Melee Mage can replace the Martial, NERF THEM.

2) Anti-magic resistance. This is so common sense I don't even see WHY people protest about it. The ability to cleave/counter/dispel/neutralize/withstand/overcome/resist/shatter/complete ly freaking shut down some ()&)*& caster is part and parcel of the martial legend.
Fine, so your GD caster can kill an army. I can Kill YOU.

Combined, the Martial has to be able to do his GD job, and do it better then ANYTHING a caster can come up with. If he can't do his freaking job, then start over. The only thing that should stop a Martial is an army or another Martial. Any Caster getting in his way should be sushi. If the Casters don't like it, stop waving your hands, put on a sword and armor and suck it up.

3) Leadership.
Bake it into the GD class. If you choose NOT to use it, so be it. Call it a sidekick, student, cohort, buddy, blood companion, oathsworn, whatever.
Call them guilds, followers, troops, MOAR STUDENTS, whatever. Make them part of the class.
If the casters can wave their hands and get 100% loyal (and even more disposable) minions, give them to martials, and let the campaign decide if the martials need to take advantage of that class option, JUST LIKE CASTERS. IF not, then DON"T USE THEM. But give them the OPTION!

4) And then make martials able to freaking LEAD IN WAR. GD (*&)*(& Bards. I want someone up there who knows how to fight and command, not GD sing!

5) MOVEMENT OPTIONS. As they get higher level, I want better/stronger/faster. 'Jump Good' should be an absolute freaking MINIMUM. At higher levels, walking on air or flight is going to be a MUST just to have a BALANCED GAME. The only way it's not is going to be giving away the ability to TAKE AWAY FLYING (which is another whole kind of awesome) and/or Dimensional Movement (even more awesome!).

6) I WANT SUPERHUMAN. I do. Seriously. Nope, no questions. I want badass with lots and lots of bad. If that wizard can turn into a freaking dragon, I want to be able to beat that freaking dragon into the GD ground. He AIN"T STRONGER THEN I CAN BE. There ain't no way. I BEAT DRAGONS INTO THE GD GROUND FOR A LIVING. He waves his freaking hands and mutters fancy words. F HIM!

7) I want out of combat ability to influence the campaign. That could be political ranks, wealth, titles, leadership, renown that other classes just don't get, but accumulates to mine as naturally as Teleporting does to a Wizard. I should walk into a town and that GD bard next to me should be green with envy with the huzzahs that go up, and that wizard should be lost in the shuffle and ignored completely. If I want something done, people should be LEAPING to get it done for me. Let the GD caster wave his hands and do it himself, or get some Summoned minion to do it for him.

8) If you're a caster, you lose combat savvy and you lose skills.
If you are a FUll Caster, you lose a LOT of combat savvy and almost all skills. You are a Full GD Caster, and that means your precious brainpower is chock full of hand waving and tongue gnashing and your knees are going bad from prayer sessions and Rituals and ceremonies and you don't have bloody TIME nor inclination to be good at mundane SKILLS. You don't practice Jumping when you can GD fly. You don't practice Survival when you can Endure Elements/Resist COld and Create Food and Water. You don't Diplomance when you can Suggest and Charm.

GD, what IS it with campaign worlds and anti-magic whining shells? They should be STANDARD ISSUE, because that's what non-Casters would want! Who gives a PU*P*U if it shuts down Casters! THAT"S WHY WE WANT THEM! No fly zones, no summon zones, no teleport zones, no charm zones - they should be all over the GD place, as should cheap personal protection. BECAUSE THAT"S HOW YOU MAKE NON-CASTERS FEEL SAFE. WAAAAAA, YOU SHUT DOWN MY ABILITY TO ENSLAVE ANYONE I WANT TO WITH A WORD, OR BLOW UP PARLIAMENT WIHT A STANDARD ACTION! WAAAAA!

Martials should not need to rely on a caster to Recover. That's freaking suicide. It's stupid, it makes no sense, and no GD person in their right mind is going to NOT have accelerated recovery options (read: healing and getting rid of 'conditions') if they have any GD sense at all.
IF you cannot bake recovery options into a martial class, START GD OVER.
Either EVERYONE relies on the cleric for healing, or he's just a convenient source for some extra potent helpings he can spread around to others. But if a martial can't recover from injuries of all kinds pretty much on his own, then EVERYONE better be going to see the doctor...and there better be cheap magic items for the Martials to use to heal and recover, because beyond arms and armor, there is NOTHING more important that renders them impotent and useless.

11) If it takes too much money/time/magic items for a full martial party to succeed at an adventure vs a full caster party, start bloody over until you get it right.


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kyrt-ryder wrote:
Malwing wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

The existence of the Rogue and Fighter as independent classes with distinct niches to protect from one another is a pretty big thorn in the foot of those character types.

Granted simple gestalt still has a long way to go to be a valid class, but it's getting close to on par with an Unchained Barbarian. [In a tactician sort of way juxtaposed to the Barb's smashermancy.]

I don't mind class interdependance but in 3.5 it wasn't even close to being even. If it was, Wizards would get as many skills as the fighter, and no bonus feats, Fighter would get some minor ability at levels 4, 8, 10, 14, 16, and 20, Rogue would get something in it's dead levels. As it stands Wizard is the only one that got something new each level in 3.5.
Class interdependence CAN be a great idea for a game if it's done in a way that everybody gets to play all the time. Shadowrun is notorious for getting this wrong, and 3E is notorious for making it one-way to the point that past a certain level a group is better off having no martials at all.

Shadowrun unfortunately chose the route of mimicking the real world.

It's real hard to contribute meaningfully in a VR dive if you ain't a decker. Guess what? That SEAL is going to be standing around while the hacker does his thing in real life, too.

Ditto vehicular combat. You have awesome drivers/pilots, and you have people who ride along with them. SEALS don't help helicopter transport pilots or Blackhawk tank-smashers do their jobs.

Stick a driver, hacker or pilot in the middle of a SEAL fireteam, and he's there mainly to drag a wounded SEAL to safety, not fight. He's IN THE WAY.

That's real life, and yeah, that can be no fun for a game.

So what 3.5 did is make everyone good at combat/killing, and then the give everyone but the martials the ability to contribute elsewhere. SOmetimes multiple elsewheres. Which made your SEAL totally unnecessary.



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Spellcasters get +1 SL every level.
Spellcasters get more spells/day every level.
Spellcasters get access to NEW SPELLS every 2-3 levels.
Spellcasters get to use a bunch of magic items without needing UMD.
Spellcasters get to make magic items very easily.
Spellcasters get to identify spells and magical effects without needing to pay skill points.
Prepared spellcasters can CUSTOMIZE THEIR LOAD-OUT against a foe. That is horrendously powerful.
Prepared casters can totally change their role from blaster to controller to summoner to charmer to diplomancer to forger to scout to traveler to melee tank to buffer to (maybe) healer with one day (or less) of rest.
Spon casters can pick their spells to do most or all that more or less at will as they rise in levels.
Casters determine the length of the adventure. When your casters are empty, the wise party is done. It doesn't matter how much oomph your martials have left. This automatically make martials second string.
Casters tend to have Single Ability dependency.

(&&()& Casters getting something new every level. What do you think spells ARE?


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Addendum II:

"All good saves for classes with no magical ability is TOO STRONG."

Why? Because they might have, no they don't, magical class abilities on top of the good saves?!? Better then paladin saves or superstition?

"Giving fighters healing abilities is magical."
Making them the only martial class with NO healing abilities. YAY!

"They can invest in UMD and CLWands like everyone else."
With their copious skill points and high Charisma making this a nice low level option that synergizes with class skills, right?
Oh, wait, UMD has nothing to do with the Fighter CLASS. It's just what ANYBODY could do. Especially if they have tons of skill points to spend.

"Hey, being able to move full speed in heavy armor is an awesome ability!"
That all dwarves get at level 1, and all classes get as soon as they can afford mithral.

"That d10 for hit points ROCKS."
Uh, what? It means he gets on avg 2 hp per level more then the mage, who can invest in a Con booster for half price or less, ending up with more HP then the Fighter. THAT d10 for HP?

"Bravery, Bravery is crap."
"But we'll just replace it with something equally crappy. And call it bad class design if we replace it with something decent."

"Okay, MAYBE Fighters shouldn't need high ability scores to qualify for their class bonus feats..."
"But getting feats as fast as a Ranger? No, no, we can't do that!"
"Cause, uh, well, Rangers are magical! They deserve it!"
"Well, sure. They need them, you know! Gotta be sneaky and perceptive and train animals and know woodland lore. It's required! Fighters don't need to know any of that stuff!"

"Moving and attacking is way too strong, but moving and full spellcasting is just perfect."

"Being able to cut through spells is unreal."
UGH? Wait, being able to cut spells is unreal, but casting spells is-?!?

"Giving Fighters followers is overpowered."
(cough) but casters getting hordes of minions and magic-using creatures for waving their hands and classes getting free animal companions and familiars better then any merc you could hire is perfectly fine?!?

"Fighters don't need to lead armies or provide bonuses to fellow warriors. That's the job of bards."
So, Fighters are there to be the targets of buff spells, but can't help out their friends and allies in mass combat? IN other words, soldiers are meant to suck in mass combat, and the term 'general' and 'warlord' and 'battlefield commander' is only supposed to apply to BARDS? And priests and wizards and druids and oracles and -
"Uh...they can take teamwork feats."


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There's an incredible amount of pushback just giving the fighter a damage bonus at level 1!

The ONLY FIGHTING CLASS NOT TO GET ONE! "Oh, it creates a dippable class."


"But they get so many feats, they can spend some on defenses."

--No, they can't. They have to spend non-class feats on any OTHER class. Fighters have no options for magical defenses, very little for movement, and none for skill choices in their class movement choices. COMBAT FEATS DON'T HELP WITH THAT STUFF.

"Fighters having the skill points of a ranger is not right."

Wait, what? rangers, with druidic spellcasting, animal companions, class powers AND better bonus feats then rangers, should have MORE skill points then fighters? A spellcasting class better at non-magical skills then an entirely non-magical class?
Why?!? TELL ME WHY!?!

"FIghters having access to anti-magical stuff is wrong."
WHY?! It's the oldest trope in the book! You have magic, I cut through magic!

"All this talk of super strength, speed, skills and stuff is too animeish."
WHAT?!? Do you not read Western mythology? Do you like high level martials being irrelevant? Just-just...ARGH!

"Nerfing spellcasters back into a more balanced role isn't right. Bring martials up to par. Just...don't give them any fantastic abilities when you do so. The fact that is impossible you can just ignore."

That's what we're agreed on.


RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm surprised you've never seen it before, Sslarn. It's been around quite some time!


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