Aelryinth's page

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Nosferatu, we are talking about the spell because it's a game-breaker.

the suspension of disbelief that the economy of a magical world works cracks and shatters as soon as you apply Fabricate to it.

That's why the discussion is happening. Sure, if the player is never going to abuse it, you can ignore it, and the DM says it doesn't happen. Buuuuuut as soon as your level 9 wizard or sorc wants to make a little money on the side...it opens a really bad can of worms, and then the other effects of the spell start to be revealed, especially how it sidelines crafters.

as for the 50% rule and demanding to sell at 90, great, just wait around for the buyer, and don't go adventuring.

The 50% rule assumes you are selling to middlemen, who turn around and sell to final customers. If you want to BE a middleman, give up adventuring and get into being a merchant, I'm sure your party can adventure without your character. The DM will take him and make an NPC, explain how he's getting into merchant politics and making and using a lot of gold, and the rest of the party is killing monsters and being heroes.

It's all good.

==Aelryinth

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The ability to do days and days of highly skilled labor in an instant and turn it into pure monetary gain is what is broken with Fabricate. There is no cost to the spell other then raw material.

Are the crafting rules borked too? Yeah. But Fabricate is definitely not guilt-free here.

==Aelryinth

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Oh, here's a simpler idea on skills for a rogue, and it's easier to track.

A Rogue gains a +1 competence bonus to 1 skill for every +SA dice they have.
Thus, if they have 5d6 SA, they have a +5 Competence bonus to 5 skills of their choice. 10 d6, +10 to 10 different skills!

This gives them a good scaling bonus that eventually minimizes the need for skill boosting potions and stuff. What other characters have to buff to do, the rogue gets simply because they are that damn awesome, yet it doesn't exceed the power of what magic can do.

I think I like that better then extra skill feats.

==Aelryinth

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First thing to remember in class redesign is: don't give good stuff away with a dip.

So if you're going to give broad, hefty ability with skills away, you need to wait until level 4 at the least.

The second thing you have to figure is, what are you going to reward a rogue for? High INt or high Dex? Those are two very different builds for any kind of rogue. Historically, dex is the main stat for a rogue, and then people differ on builds for Cha or Int. People who go wisdom usually like a ranger vibe more.

Furthermore, any class without magical ability should include some form of profound anti-magical ability. I think it's utterly crazy that the fighter and rogue are the two classes most vulnerable to magic, because they've got one good save each and no general anti-magic capabilities in ANY fashion.

=======
For fighters, it's all about feats first, defenses second, and versatility third.

Feats are the class abiltiies of the fighter. name ONE feat that is the equal of Extra Rage Power.
You can't. There isn't one. Rage powers are powerful, auto-scale, and have profound effects on the user. They are awesome.

Feats for fighters have to ALL be the equal of class abilities, or they are useless. They only way you can do that is to rip down feat chains, and give them to fighters who have the starter feats. It should be ONE feat for a fighter to take the whole weapon spec tree. It should be ONE feat to take the whole step up and strike shtick. It should be ONE feat to take the Shatter defenses line of feats.
Because that's what fighters are...the masters of feats.

Weapon Training should simply add groups, not add groups at -1. They are the only class that is inferior with other then their primary weapon.

Fighters should have more defenses against magic, and the core of that is the saving throw. There is a built in scaling mechanism for the fighter for bonuses to feats in their weapon training, armor training, and bravery. If Iron Will auto-scaled with Bravery, fighters can take a feat and get a good Will save. If Lightning Reflexes scaled with Armor training, they'd get a good Reflex save. and if Great Fort scaled with weapon training, they'd have an awesome Fort save.

Several Rage powers should exist as feats. I still can't believe they gave Robilar's Gambit to the Barbarian...

Versatility. Give them 4 skill points to reflect the fact that anyone who doesn't learn magic is going to rely on other forms of training. As masters of build flexibility, let them pick two class skills for their own list at level 1.
I would, in addition, give them an additional feat every level they did not get a combat feat, and the pool to select it from would be limited to feats that affect saves and skills. You don't need an awesome wis stat for Perception if you have Skill Focus and Alertness in it from bonus feats.

And, you know, it would be REALLY REALLY nice if Fighters were the only class that could swap feats around from a pool of their own choice. Perhaps every combat feat is TWO feats, but only one can be active at a time?

===========
For Monks, the chassis is okay, the combat rules aren't in favor.
The Monk isn't meant to be a tank, it's meant to be a highly effective skirmisher.
I like the idea above of letting the monk advance an extra 5' for every 10' of his speed bonus when full attacking. It doesn't give them power, but it gives them range that no other class would have. It's a great idea.
To combat MAD, I would call on the Monk's theme of self-perfection and give them stat bonuses...more stat bonuses then any other class. Every four levels in the monk class, give them an extra 4 stat points that all go into their LOWEST STATS. It's not a huge buff, but it insures that there will never be a monk with a dump stat, and that they will have excellent general stats when they level. At higher levels, no monk should have less then a 13-14 base stat in any ability score.
For the amulet of Mighty Fists, the cost is the same pain that TWF have always had to put up with. Because in the end they get the highest base damage weapons in the game, and the most attacks, it's balanced against that paradigm. If you want to get rid of the TWF aspect of being a monk, then yes, down tone the amulet. It does suck at lower levels, I agree...but so does TWF anywhere.

===================
For Rogues, two things.
1) Take away sneak attack from any other class. It's a Rogue thing, keep it a rogue thing. Ditto trap spotter. Indiana Jones was a rogue, not an archeologist bard.
2) You really have to make them the master of skills. The ability of the bard to layer skills into his Performance skill is just wrong.

A Rogue should be an Expert+.
Talents should be full class abilities, not feat alternates, i.e. half-strength class abilities. So Talents need to be overhauled.

Skills: All skills are class skills for a rogue. That's right, let them pick anything. After all Experts get to pick their own list, and Rogues are Experts on roids.
A Rogue Talent may choose to use Str or Dex, or Int or Cha, for any particular skill that requires the other stat. You could build a completely viable Cha or Int rogue that way, and it subsumes all them silly feats that let you use this stat for that skill, which are hugely underpowered.
A Talent that would let them treat any skill as trained should be later level, but an excellent skill. Just being able to take 10 on any Knowledge check and assist anyone at anything should be useful.

Rogues should be able to expand evasion to any and all of their magic saves, if they choose to keep on the no-magic route. Magic just all slide off them, not just the fireballs.

To keep the Dex focus, a Talent that lets them deal dex to damage while using a finesse weapon if they are NOT dealing sneak attack damage would insure they did decent damage at all times. In effect, it would be 'stepped down' sneak attack damage. A simpler method might simply be to co-opt the duelist and let them deal +int damage when using a finesse weapon, instead, or simply minimum SA damage (i.e. deal +5 or +5d6 damage, the latter if they qualify for SA). Stacking extra damage on top of SA seems to not be neccessary...its when they are not SA'ing that we have to work on their relevance.

And giving them a skill or skill focused based feat every level they don't gain an SA bonus would keep them ahead of every class as far as breadth and depth of skill points. It would match the fighter fix some, but the rogue has so many more skills, and Talents to supplement skill choices, that this isn't out of line.
===

As a kicker to all this, one other thing...level one profs and stuff should never, ever be given away. So someone picking up a level of fighter shouldn't gain all martial profs after level 1, etc. You need to value gifts at level 1 to make them have teeth. The same way you don't give out maximum hit points at level 2, you shouldn't give away armor and weapon profs.

==Aelryinth

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I'm not sure why you are making the argument.

It is the restriction to LG that makes the paladin what he is...a heroic defender of the highest ideals, and given extra abilities to compensate for the restrictions he operates under.

All clerics are servants to the gods, and are equal beneath them...to an extant. There are lots of people who will tell you the alignments and the domains are not created equal, and that good clerics do indeed operate under a handicap vs their evil counterparts. All things being equal, two clerics with identical domains, one good, one evil, the evil one has the advantage because he has no moral limits on what he is capable of.

So the classes are NOT inherently equal in game play, and that's what makes them heroes...good defying evil, even at a disadvantage.

The instant you make paladins of all alignments, the LG paladin is the weak cousin. The CG paladin is MUCH more playable and can be interpreted so much more freely. Switch Lawful stuff to Chaos, and you're done! What could be better? Now I can do all the edgy stuff that some strait-laced LG paladin can't do, and get all his benefits.

Uh-uh.

==Aelryinth

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I'm not concerned about specific examples on CG...I'm focused on the overall breadth.

And the breadth of CG says that their flexibility of actions far, far eclipses that of what LG can do. Chaos simply has more choices, in both the short and long term. Examples of tightly wound CG people adhering to a code are disengenuous. The possibilities of actions open to CG is simply wider then that allowed to LG, especially a strict LG like a paladin. And that means a CG paladin is simply more powerful then an LG one if they have the same abilities, because he can resort to tactics and methods the LG cannot.

And that's why we don't like 'paladins' of other alignments. If you want to downgrade the stuff a CG guy gets to pay for his flexibility and looser moral code, that's fine...but don't call him a paladin or make him the twin, but better.

==Aelryinth

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Each scroll of a spell is not 50 variations of each wand of a spell, Ashiel.

You're effectively making the scroll problem 50x worse, and making all wands always available. Despite scrolls being cheaper.

==Aelryinth

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Chaos is not just Creation, it is dissolution and lack of focus.
Law is not merely stagnation, it is advancement and progress.

Law is about restrictions, Chaos is about no restrictions.

While LG is not inherently more 'good' then CG, it is inherently more limited and restricted in what 'good' actions it can take.

Because of this, it is seen as a purer alignment. The entire suite of actions available to LG is available to NG and CG. The reverse simply is not true.

So anyone good can be a Big Damn Hero. CG can also be a conniving, lying, duplicitous hero, and do it with charm. NG might be able to pull that off, occasionally. LG? Goes against everything LG stands for. Restricted actions.

As for IRon Man, he's way, waaaay too organized to be CG. He's CG by temperment, LG by need to seek order, so I'd label him NG by default. In the comics, he's definitely LG...he's almost as big a technocrat as Reed Richards, except he really does run a massive company, not let his girlfriend do it for him, and his interpretaton of the law was the whole catalyst behind the conflicts between heroes in the Marvel Civil War.

And us diehard paladin lovers love the fact that the paladin comes with that LG restriction on it. We tend to think people who want paladins of any alignment are simply power-gamers who want to corrupt the legacy of what being a LG hero means. Paladins get their powers because they are LG, not because they follow this or that god.

If you want to play a CG Big Damn Hero, play one. You can do it without playing a Paladin!

==Aelryinth

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if Challenge Evil is a paladin only spell, sure, price it like it is.

But if it's a spell on a primary caster list, it's priced at the lowest primary caster level (i.e. cure spells at cleric level vs druid).

What was the big magic item book they just put out? The ruling was in there. I remember people talking about it, I just don't own it.

This is a good rule, btw. It stops all sorts of 'rob the spell list' imperatives that 3.5 had, and enforces the idea that everyone makes certian magic items the same way.

==Aelryinth

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if you have to resort to a specific race, it's no longer about the class.

==Aelryinth

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A buckler is considered to be using the hand or arm upon which it sits. You most assuredly CANNOT use a buckler with any feature that says you must keep a hand free. That's trying to English-lawyer around a restriction in the worst manner.

==Aelryinth

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Sticking him in the astral won't work either. If the classic astral rules are used, all you need do is focus on your destination and that's where you'll head. The tarrasque is going to be focused on getting back where he came from, and he doesn't need to be smart or fast. Eventually he'll wind up at a color pool, emerge back on Golarion, and start chowing down.

Pick another plane,w ithout intelligent lifeforms that will likely send him right back to you, to trap him in.

==Aelryinth

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CoDzilla is possible to a degree in Nova situations (blowing all your buffs for one big fight)

The basis of CoDzilla, however, was power all the time, all day. You kicked out the fighter and got a fighter who was also a primary spellcaster. That is thankfully gone.

==Aelryinth

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CoDzilla is there because, with core stuff, the Cleric or Druid could fulfill pretty much any or all of the roles of the party; skill monkey, primary caster, healer, and primary melee.

It's harder for them to do it in Paizo. Various buffs no longer stack, and the ability to make multiple buffs last all day doesn't exist (although there's a ring that helps with one of them).

For Druids, it's much harder for them to do the melee role because they can't dump stats anymore. It used to be, turn into a brown bear, str 25, con 20 dex 14, hooty-hoo! Wander around as an ape all day and get its physical stats and your normal ones. A Druid basically needed Wis, Con and maybe some Cha to get by.

Now, a 10 Str Druid turning into a bear gets a str of 18. Con 10 becomes con 14, I believe. That is a significant downgrade. Without the super-uber combat stats, the melee role is harder for them, just like for the cleric. Wilding clasps that let you get all the benefits of your gear in animal forms aren't quite around now, either.

Spells that allowed bypassing of skills are rarer now, too, or at least domain restricted. Many spells have been tweaked or rebalanced, or simply don't exist.

It's possible to blow a lot of spells and buffs and really become a terror for a single nova fight...but being able to kick the fighter or barb out the door isn't anywhere near as much of an option.

==Aelryinth

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Those are the Dragon Magazine paladins all right. I had that issue and I memorized them along ago. I think you can still find them online.

SKR is right. Fluff doesn't balance mechanics, but the paladin's fluff has always been an integral part of the character. In his case, the restriction on actions does a good job justifying the powers he gets.

Anti-paladin players are always annoyed because the paladin gets to use his lay on hands as a swift action, and for them it's a standard action. They are totally overlooking the fact they can use poison, bribes, blackmail, murder, lie, cheat, steal, kidnap, loot, rape and pillage, all of which can be extremely potent in-game tactics to use...and the paladin cannot do the same, because of his alignment.

It's there for a reason.

I don't have a problem with non-LG paladins, but they should marginally less and less powerful as you move away from that restrictive LG alignment. People want to have their cake and eat it, too, and that's what NG and CG paladin types want.

===Aelryinth

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For AgentJay, Full Post: Paizo BLASTER CASTER build:
Goal: Pile on the hurty-hurt with direct damage spells. You don't need battlefield control if the enemy is dead.

Level 1: Take Sorceror: Crossblooded Orc/Draconic, Human, take Varisian Tattoo (+1 Cl Evoc), take Trait: Magical Lineage (pick spell(important!), Reactionary (+2 Init, optional)

Then take Wizard/Evoker -Admixture Specialist for your remaining levels. Why Admixture? Because you can change the element of any of your blasting spells on the fly to get around elemental resistances/immunities.

If you want to superspecialize outside of Evoker, take Sin Magic, lose two schools (Conjuration/Abjuration), gain yet another spell slot per level of raw power.

Key Feats: Intensify Spell, Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Spell Perfection, Spell Penetration, Spell Specialization, Greater Spell Specialization.

End result: Crossblooded sorc orc/dragon bloodline 1, Wiz/19, Admixture Evocation specialist.
Note: Can use Sin Magic for more slots. Sorcerer level allows use of spell devices from denied schools (Conj/Abjuration).
Magical Lineage Trait allows Intensify for free on chosen spell.
Spell Perfection allows free Quicken at higher levels.

===============================================
Play Hints:

Take Burning Hands or Magic Missile as a Specialized Spell early. Burning Hands will deal more damage, Magic Missile has better long-term utility and keeps you out of danger. Every other level, you can change your specialized spell.

Add Greater Spell Specialization at level 7 or 9. Why? You can then memorize utility spells, and trash them for your blaster spell.

Change your specialized spell up to Scorching Ray or Fireball when you can, depending on campaign, typically at 5 or 7.

At level 12 or higher, change it to Fire Snake.
Use Admixture specializing to change the element on the fly.

Use Fire Snake for remainder levels. Why? High damage base and level 5 spell still leaves room for metamagic, esp Quicken.

Mechanics behind Choices: Orc blooded, Draconic: +1/die to all damage spells, +1/die to element of choice, retasked by Admixture = +2 dmg/die on blasting spells.

FEATS
Intensify Spell: Increases caster level damage cap +5 to apply to a specific spell. Burning hands goes up to 10d4+20. Magic Missile goes to 7d4+7. Fireball to 15d6, Fire Snake to 20d6+40.

Empower Spell: Increase dmg by 50%.

Quicken Spell: Hit enemy with two spells/rd.

Spell Specialization: +2 to caster level with a specific spell. Helps bring the damage earlier and faster.

Varisian Tattoo: +1 to Caster level with a specific school (Evo). This buys off your sorc level.

Greater Spell Specialization: Sacrifice spells to power your chosen blaster spell. Means you can memorize utility spells freely.

Spell Perfection: Doubles fixed feat bonuses, apply one metamagic for free. An Empowered/Intensified spell with Magical Lineage is still its original spell slot. SPell Penetration doubles to +4. Varisian Tattoo to +2. Spell Specialization to +4. Effectively, you've got +10 on Spell Resistance rolls, and are casting at 5 levels higher then your own.

Top End Damage: 30d6 +60 from Fire Snake, empowered, Intensified, average 165 dmg, save 1/2, level 5 slot.
Quicken for another hit, 5th level slot, 20d6 + 40dmg, avg 165.
= 330 blasting dmg in one round, save for 1/2. If you've a Rod of Maximize, you can lift this to 215 base damage.

Base level 5 spell slot is 20d6+40 dmg, 165 dmg.

BY LEVEL

At level 1, your Burning Hands should be 2d4+4 (avg 9)

At level 2, its unchanged.

At level 3, Spell Specialization kicks in. 5d4+10 (22.5). This tops it unless you Intensify it.

At 4th, 6d4+12 (27), Intensified BH.

At 5th, Intensified BH, 7d4+14 (31.5).

At 6th, you can shift Spec to Scorching Ray. 2x 4d6+8 (44). Your Fireball is 5d6+10 as well, or 7d6+14 if specced.

At 7th, 6d6+12 fireball, or 8d6+18 if spec. An Empowered, Intensified Burning Hands, if still the spec spell, is 13.5d4+27 (about 60).

8th - Empowered Scorching Ray, 2 x 6d6+12. E/I BH is 15d6+30 (74, max)

9th - Intensified, Specialized Fireball is 11d6+22 (51).

10th - Firesnake. E/Spec Fireball is 15d6+30 (74). Emp Scorching Rays are 3 x 6d6+12, or 18d6+36 (99 dmg). You can now Quicken a Burning Hands or Magic Missile as kicker damage in a round, although you've few slots.

12th - E/I/Spec Fireball is 21d6+42 (115) damage. You can now Quicken a 12d6+24 Scorching Ray.

14th level - A Specialized Firesnake now exceeds/equals an intensified Fireball. Fireball caps at 22.5d6+ 45 (123~) damage. An Empowered Firesnake is 24d6+48 (132) damage. You can now Quicken a 10d6+20 Fireball. Intensified, Empowered Scorching Ray tops out at 24d6+48 (132 dmg)

15th level - Spell Perfection. You can now add a Meta for Free. This will be Quicken or Empower. Intensified might be free if Magical Lineage applies to it. Caster level buffs for spec spell exceed +5, so top out at 20d6 dmg at 15th level. You will miss Spell Resistance rolls against CR appropriate enemies on a 1.
Assuming Firesnake, you can now cast a Quickened Intensified Firesnake for 20d6+40 (110) damage out of a 5th level slot, and an Empowered Firesnake out of the same slot for 30d6+60 (165) damage. Using a 7th level slot, you can Empower both.

16th+ - Damage remains the same, higher level spell slots are open for use of other Metas or control spells.

Conceivably you could use Disintegrate to get a higher damage total, but the delay isn't worth it, and you'd lose the Varisian tattoo bonus.

If your DM allows you Twin Spell from 3.5, you can very, very easily clock in at 495 raw dmg/round. IF he allows Arcane Thesis, god help your enemies.

==+Aelryinth

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Here's the breakdown damage of the blaster caster, WITHOUT GEAR. Yes, this is just feats.

BY LEVEL

At level 1, your Burning Hands should be 2d4+4 (avg 9)

At level 2, its unchanged.

At level 3, Spell Specialization kicks in. 5d4+10 (22.5). This tops it unless you Intensify it.

At 4th, 6d4+12 (27), Intensified BH.

At 5th, Intensified BH, 7d4+14 (31.5).

At 6th, you can shift Spec to Scorching Ray. 2x 4d6+8 (44). Your Fireball is 5d6+10 as well, or 7d6+14 if specced.

At 7th, 6d6+12 fireball, or 8d6+18 if spec. An Empowered, Intensified Burning Hands, if still the spec spell, is 13.5d4+27 (about 60).

8th - Empowered Scorching Ray, 2 x 6d6+12. E/I BH is 15d6+30 (74, max)

9th - Intensified, Specialized Fireball is 11d6+22 (51).

10th - Firesnake. E/Spec Fireball is 15d6+30 (74). Emp Scorching Rays are 3 x 6d6+12, or 18d6+36 (99 dmg). You can now Quicken a Burning Hands or Magic Missile as kicker damage in a round, although you've few slots.

12th - E/I/Spec Fireball is 21d6+42 (115) damage. You can now Quicken a 12d6+24 Scorching Ray.

14th level - A Specialized Firesnake now exceeds/equals an intensified Fireball. Fireball caps at 22.5d6+ 45 (123~) damage. An Empowered Firesnake is 24d6+48 (132) damage. You can now Quicken a 10d6+20 Fireball. Intensified, Empowered Scorching Ray tops out at 24d6+48 (132 dmg)

15th level - Spell Perfection. You can now add a Meta for Free. This will be Quicken or Empower. Intensified might be free if Magical Lineage applies to it. Caster level buffs for spec spell exceed +5, so top out at 20d6 dmg at 15th level. You will miss Spell Resistance rolls against CR appropriate enemies on a 1.
Assuming Firesnake, you can now cast a Quickened Intensified Firesnake for 20d6+40 (110) damage out of a 5th level slot, and an Empowered Firesnake out of the same slot for 30d6+60 (165) damage. Using a 7th level slot, you can Empower both.

16th+ - Damage remains the same, higher level spell slots are open for use of other Metas or control spells.

Conceivably you could use Disintegrate to get a higher damage total, but the delay isn't worth it, and you'd lose the Varisian tattoo bonus.

If your DM allows you Twin Spell from 3.5, you can very, very easily clock in at 495 raw dmg/round. IF he allows Arcane Thesis, god help your enemies.

Note: This was designed before Snowball.

==Aelryinth

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There's already a quote above where a dev said that a Bastard sword is a two handed martial weapon. They just weren't going to put it into the table twice. It's not an exotic weapon...text trumps table. It takes an Exotic weapon PROF to wield it one handed...that does not make it 'always' an exotic weapon, and certainly not 'always a one-handed weapon'. It can be used for over hand chop.

The caveat is that even though it is a two handed weapon that you can wield in one hand with a prof, you can't overhand chop it with one hand...you still have to use both hands.

Using a lance with it, however, means you are converting use of a lance to use as a longspear.

A lance, when charging on a horse, is used VERY SPECIFICIALLY. You couch it in one hand, using your weight plus the mass of the horse to drive it home. That's why it gets the huge crit range and multiplier.

That is definitely NOT two handed usage. Everyone knows how to charge with a lance, it's one of those 'unwritten rules' that people try to deviate from to minmax rules.

If you are on foot, a lance is simply a spear of various size. Using a lance with Overhand Chop means you would not be using it like a lance on the charge. You would be using it like a spear. It would do dmg, have the threat range, and crit modifier of a spear of the appropriate size. If you want the extra goodies of being a lance, use it like a lance.

Protesting that your build tries to use this trick to twink out damage is exactly akin to someone protesting that they can't talk and walk around after they are dead. Trying to redefine 'lance charge' to fit your justification for your build is not how the game works.

==Aelryinth

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Technically, the bastard sword is a two handed weapon you can take an Exotic Weapon prof to wield with one hand. Yes, it qualifies as a two handed weapon.

Note you still have to wield it with two hands to get the bonus. A guy with Monkey Grip or a Titan Mauler doesn't get the bonuses if he wields a Greatsword in one hand, either.

==Aelryinth

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I think everyone can agree that the bonus from Courageous does not stack with the bonus from Courageous, and does not AFFECT the bonus from courageous.

This would be in line with the non-stacking of Defender bonuses, which also include the 'all other' language, but don't stack.

==Aelryinth

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Be warned that concealment effects work best when stacked, but get more and more useless as you level because of the expanded senses of monsters and wider distribution of True Seeing. An Erinyes will really spoil your day. ANything with Tremorsense or Blindsense is unaffected by such tricks.

That said, a constant miss chance, such as a cloak of displacement, is an excellent investment at lower levels.

Here's a basic AC advancement table progression.

ADD Add’l COST AC TOTAL TOTAL COST
+1 Armor Enhance 1000 +1 1000
+1 Shield Enhance 1000 +2 2000
+1 Ring of Prot 2000 +3 4000
+1 Natural Armor 2000 +4 6000
+2 Armor Enhance 3000 +5 9000
+2 Shield Enhance 3000 +6 12000
+2 Dex Gaunts 4000 +7 16000
(+1 Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier 5000)
(+1 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone 5000)
+3 Armor Enhance 5000 +8 21000
+3 Shield Enhance 5000 +9 26000
+2 Ring/Prot 6000 +10 32000
+2 Natural Armor 6000 +11 38000
+4 Armor Enhance 7000 +12 45000
+4 Shield Enhance 7000 +13 52000
+5 Armor Enhance 9000 +14 61000
+5 Shield Enhance 9000 +15 70000
+3 Ring/Prot 10000 +16 80000
+3 Natural Armor 10000 +17 90000
+4 Dex booster 12000 +18 102000
+4 Ring of Prot 14000 +19 116000
+4 Natural Armor 14000 +20 130000
+5 Ring of Prot 18000 +21 148000
+5 Natural Armor 18000 +22 166000
+6 Dex Booster 20000 +23 186000

Let's be clear that a Haramaki+X is not an efficient use of gold if you have access to mage armor. To equal mage armor, it must be +3, meaning you are out 9k gold that could be used to acquire another bonus. It will require 7k MORE to get it to +4, which costs you another bonus elsewhere.

Basically, for mages you concentrate on all the other AC boosting stuff, right up until you get to Dex booster +6. THEN, you start upgrading from Mage Armor to Bracers of Armor. That first one is going to cost you 25k gp...there's no bigger cost for +1 AC for any mage. Then run it up to +8 and you're done.

I will also note that a mage can wear a buckler +5 made out of mithral, and it will have no spell failure chance or penalty for him.

==+Aelryinth

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It's GM Fiat to say it's legal, and then it's GM Fiat to say it actually works.

he doesn't have any rules backing up his interpretation on how volume works...which is why he's asking me to find his rules for him. Which I consider pretty funny.

And as for RD, Stone Shape doesn't say AoE 10 Ft cubed +1/level or whatever, divisible by 1/4 cubic inch blocks. It says 1 cubic foot blocks. So you can do non-fine details, in areas of 1x1x1, contiguous. That's what the spell actually says. Anything else is reading into the spell.

And a 16' tall wizard hat shrunk down to size would not be stiff on your head, and would be worn floppy, and counts as clothing, not cover.

==Aelryinth

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Aelryinth wrote:

What I 'think' people are trying to say is that Shrink Item ignores air when shrinking stuff.

That's patently not true. If you shrink down a hollow sphere and don't shrink the air, then it's going to explode on you. Ditto a house, boat, or other object. Shrink Item CAN shrink a hot air balloon...and keep the balloon hot and inflated, too. If it can't shrink the air, it can't do that.

And if you start saying air doesn't take up space, I'm going to start making up big glass spheres, extremely thin, and fill them up with lots and lots of poison gas, and abuse the heck out of your interpretation of the rules.

Shrink Item can shrink flames and convert them to paper. It can certainly do so with air, and must, if it is to work.

There's no difference to Shrink Item between a 40 gallon barrel filled with wine and one filled with disease-bearing gas and one filled with normal air. It's all still the same volume.

==Aelryinth

If someone at your table casts a fireball, do you make it explode prematurely because it collides with the air?

Your reasoning is not bad Aelryinth, but it appears to me that you let your appreciation for the narrative, interfere with the mechanics of the game.

Now this is speculation on my part, so I apologize if I am incorrect in the following assumptions.

For instance, you appear to be of the conviction that if you cast shrink item on an object, you can actually see it turn physically smaller, as its physical form diminishes and it becomes clothlike. But the spell does not say that that is what happens. It is a quite pleasant thematic picture of the spell, but there is nothing stopping us from just assuming the wizard touches the object and *poof* it is smaller and clothlike, as if by magic :D (pun intended)

I'm all for the narrative, but you cannot let it interfere with how the game is played, or you are not being fair to your players. If you are going to change how the game is played to maintain the theme, you need to let your players...

Your fireball example is a burst, and completely facetious, I have to say. In case you didn't know, they actually REMOVED volume as a qualifier on fireballs. It used to be that it took up a volume of 33,500 feet...you know, the cubic area of a 20' diameter sphere. Which is 335 feet of 10' hallway, if you get my drift. And the fireball expanded out to the full VOLUME of the blast.

Bursts don't do that, stopping at any intervening obstacles.

Do you let your characters take a Stone SHape, squish it down to a 1/8 inch plane, and use it to make a diagonal slide on a wall 12' thick and 80 feet long? Which will bring down a major castle wall, like, instantly as it's weight makes it slide down the incline. Because that's what you're saying with volume. Even though the spell says it gets manipulated in one cubic foot blocks.

I'm going to make a globe and fill it with poison air. It's going to be big but very thin so it fits your volume rules...maybe only a cubic foot of glass if you melt it down. Because you're ignoring the 'air' inside, I've now got these poison gas clouds shrunken down and in paper form I can tote out, throw, shatter with a word, and lay down the poison gas. I could do the same with a hot air balloon.

Because that's how you're treating volume.

This gets even crazier if you're dealing with compressed air, where the whole point of the containment device is the air inside it.

And yes, the teepee takes up MUCH less volume if you fold it down. But you aren't putting a folded teepee on your head. You're putting an intact, fully erected one, and it takes up more space then one compacted down. The spell will differentiate between each because it preserves the form that they are in. Shrinking down a massive hot air balloon or an empty tent is going to require considerably more volume then shrinking down a bundle of silk wrapped tightly up. If you want it instantly useful, you need to compensate.

Although how you balance a teepee of any size straight up on your head for long periods of time is a question all its own.

Like I said, Shrink Item considers a barrel full of water and a barrel full of air to use the same volume. Just because it's hollow doesn't excuse the volume of spell required to envelope it. You get into REAL abuse if you don't treat it all the same.

==Aelryinth

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There are no spells that don't use the 'total volume' rules.

If you shrank a house down, would you use the volume of the house or the house's components size?

You're trying to use a 'mass of component parts' interpretation of volume, which is NOT what the spell is calling for by any stretch of the imagination. It's asking 'how much space the item occupies'.

The spell is calling for volume, which is the area the spell encloses when cast. To fully cover an object, the spell must fully cover the volume it occupies, even if much of that volume is empty space.

You're attempting to say that a fully erected 100x40x20' carnival tent is as easy to shrink down as it would be if it were folded up, or you could shrink down a hot-air balloon when filled with hot air as easily as you could it rolled up into a bundle...although the volume the two forms occupy is completely different.

Sorry, no. Form does have an effect on volume. If you want to stack the component parts together in the minimum space provided, sure, you've got enough volume to use them all. But if you want them in the form of an enclosure, that's an AoE measurement, not a mass/weight effect, and to shrink the whole object, you're going to need the full volume it occupies, not what it is made of. Just because there's empty spots where the spell isn't doing anything doesn't mean you get to discount that volume.

yes, that means a solid steel cone is as easy to shrink down as a teepee occupying the same area. That's the beauty of volume vs mass.

===Aelryinth

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Aelryinth wrote:

Ravingdork, a Contingency only responds to effects...it has no way of telling if you were rendered unconscious 'against your will'. Or, to put it another way, why would it not trigger if you committed suicide before something terrible happened to you (like, an unrecoverable body)? You're asking the spell to make a judgement call, which requires intelligence...something the spell does not have.

You have, in effect, a condition to the conditional trigger, which I'm pretty sure is not allowed for the spell. The spell has no way of judging your intent if something happens to you.

Secondly, it has absolutely no way of telling what the 'nearest temple to your god' is. It's not a divination spell, and it's not intelligent. It goes off with a defined target at the moment of being triggered...as if you are casting it at that moment, NOT as if you cast it with a target days before. Only Word of Recall auto-ports you to a pre-programmed location...it's the unique nature of that spell. Teleport does NOT have that wording, nor does Contingency modify it.

In other words, RD, that wording and the spell attached to it both do not work...which is fairly standard for how people use Contingency.

==+Aelryinth

You're technically correct, but I think you may perhaps be a bit too restrictive in the overall intent of the spell. The very nature of Contingency necessitates the spell to make a "judgment call". It can be explained away by whatever fluff seems most appropriate, but at the end of the day, it's meant to allow a Wizard to pre-cast a spell to take effect when certain conditions are met. At its simplest level, "it's magic" works.

I see many players who assume a default position of "The players are always trying to put something over on the GM", which is kind of unfortunate. I recognize that comics like "Knights of the Dinner Table" are funny because they play on exaggerated stereotypes of RPG players, but it becomes problematic when people start assuming those...

We're talking about Schroedinger's Wizard, who by definition are going to grab every single bit of power out of a spell that they can.

And Contingency wording and power is one of the main power points of abuse by these people.

Contingency responds to something that happens to you. "WHen I am incapacitated, cast Heal on me," works just fine...condition, trigger. "Cast Heal on me when I am incapacitated against my will" is forcing an opinion and judgement.
The spell is not intelligent, it responds to x happening, but it can't issue an opinion.

A favorite one I see is "When a hostile creature comes within 50' of me, cast X."
Excuse me, when did Contingency get a Detect Hostile Intent, 50'?

What if there's a temple to your deity 20 miles away you've never been to? How does the teleport know to go there? What if the temple you do know is out of range? What does the teleport do?

It's these kinds of shenanigans which Schroedinger Wizards love to put out, and just assume that all of their legalese is going to work. Contingency doesn't know if you fell asleep against your will or were forced to. It knows you have the 'sleep' condition, are incapacitated, and it's time to trigger.

However, unless it's something that does not need direction (cast Heal on me), you have a problem. For instance, "Cast Fireball on the last creature to deal me hit point damage," probably won't work - you need to name a target at the instant of casting, and you must be able to perceive that target. An invisible, concealed attacker, or one at range, will not be subjected to the 'autofire fireball', as the spell has no way to sense something that you do not. "Cast Fireball on the last creature to injure me," means you could cast it at a mosquito.

Contingency is strong, but it's nowhere near as abusable as most wizards seem to think.

The best use of Contingent Teleport is "When I say "Vleem" activate teleport," which is basically a free action spell on your turn, but certainly won't stop you from being one turn ganked, or whisk away your dead body.

===Aelryinth

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Words of Power is an extremely poor way to show AMF as 'usable by anyone', as it isn't used in 99% of campaigns, certainly not core, and definitely not by a fighter themself.

==Aelryinth

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If it requires a legal team, then your Contingency is going to fail...magic spells don't have an 18 Int and ranks in Linguistics: Legalese.

I'm reminded of the Knights of the DInner Table where Brian actually hired a lawyer to write a wish up for him to become a god. He failed, barely, and walked off with a 25,000 gp consolation prize, regardless.

I'd've just stuck him in a demiplane, paralyzed, until the end of time while an Int 3 Modron attempted to understand his Wish, along with all the other legalese abusers. Magic is efficient that way.

Contingency is a PRIME area for Schroedinger's abuse. Once you start

And I'm pretty sure that a 'timeless' area isn't going to stop a Clone from growing, as it's the force of the spell doing that, not time or age (otherwise, it would have a fixed duration). Stasis effects once grown are a solution, as long as you've got someone to bring them down, or they naturally expire after a time...which means you better be around to re-cast them.

Note that Temporal Stasis requires Freedom to undo (its reverse), and would require spellcraft checks from simulacra to undo...and is a bad option since it requires level 17 to be effective. You want something working for your clone(s) now.

Ditto the demiplane.

==Aelryinth

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Any comparison between melee classes has to be equitable in the following ways.

1) Use the same stat array. Deviating from this will show a quick weakness to MAD. A class should not be dependent on having an uber stat. What each class can do with the same stat array is a good comparison between classes. Who can better point buy is not. I usually recommend the elite array of 15 14 13 12 10 8.

2) Use the same non-class specific, generic magic items. Class specific items are a tax on the class, i.e. Gloves of Dueling, Furious Weapons, etc., and they generally counter-balance one another while artificially hiding problems. If there is some variation, both should agree on alternatives, i.e. the barb gets mithral BP + Jingasa of Fortune, and the fighter gets mithral full plate, as the cost is about the same,a nd they provide the same protective function.

3) Stay away from controversial skills and abilities. More a 3.5 problem. Stay away from items that grant broad immunities, i.e. ioun stone + Wayfinder for Prot/Evil is effectively an item tax if everyone is taking it so they don't have to buff a will save. Likeiwse, the Bracer of Falcon's Aim was too cheap for its original price, etc.

4) Ignore race entirely, or absolutely minimize the contribution of race, esp as regards racial traits and favored class options. These again are used to hide the weaknesses of the class with non-class derived options. This includes 'pseudo-race' options like Bloodlines.

5) General and bonus feats should stay away from race-specific options entirely. Class specific are fine.

6) Stay away from archetypes, and abilities that are extremely reliant on archetypes and sub-class related powers, like Bloodlines. This is especially true for Fighters, because it often restricts weapon and/or armor/shield options. Exceptions can be allowed, but should be noted as non-core. If it's not an option open to ALL members of a class, it's a hidden feat tax.

Once you've done this, the points of comparison are:

1) DPR - Normal comparison point of all melee. This should include 'burst' DPR, and note special circumstances (i.e. the Ranger can make any target his best FE).

2) AC, and Damage Reduction. These are the ability to take attacks.

3) Defenses. This primarily means saving throws, but also includes immunities based on class. Importantly, racial benefits are NOT to be included in a class comparison, as they again tend to cover for a class weakness when used that way, and the weakness returns if a different class is chosen and those options are not available.

4) Movement should be noted, if a bonus to normal speed. Note that at higher levels, access to flight magic can make this superfluous.

5) Skills and skill points usable.

6) 'Down time' usefulness. What can the character do when not adventuring that is a contribution, that is NOT 'role-playing'? We're talking mechanical usefulness, not socializing, which anyone and everyone can do.

As soon as you start deviating from these guidelines, start relying on specific weapons, bloodlines, races, racial traits, and whatnot, it's not about the class, it's about the whole character, and the class comparison falls flat.

The comparison should basically be, "If I took Joe X and had a choice of taking the fighter class or the barb class, which would be better, all else remaining fairly equal?"

Do that, and you start seeing problems between classes.

==Aelryinth

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Agility and coordination have nothing to do with speed. Coord is flexibility, balance, precision, steadiness and fast reflexes. It is not fast movement. Quick Draw does not have a coord req. Juggling requires ranks. And moving a weapon incredibly fast requires BAB.

You are confusing BAB and Skill ranks with a natural attribute. Coord does NOTHING for your speed.

The speed you can move at is a function of power. Power is about applied strength. Look at Bolt...the guy is big, tall, and he is freaking STRONG, with a high Str/weight ratio. He is NOT nimble. Your BAB and skill ranks are what allow you to use Str efficiently, not coord.

My rote answer to a feat giving Dex to Damage is:

Speed and Power: Req: Str 13
You may use your Str bonus to Reflex saves and Initiative in place of your Dex bonus.

Powerful Defense: Req: Speed and Power
You may use your Str bonus in place of your Dex bonus to AC.

Comment on my feats....etc.

If you think these feats are balanced, then sure, Dex to damage is balanced.

==Aelryinth

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I would have said his horse, but there you have it.

==Aelryinth

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Hmm. I always thought that any attempt to cast spells on the creature in a summoning diagram was breaching the circle as assuredly as stepping on it. He can't cast on you, and you can't cast on him. There's only a very few specific spells historically which could be cast to violate those, and they were 1E. I don't see anything allowing spells to breach the circle in PF.

In short, you cast Geas on the balor, he roars and charges you, picking the coin up between his toes with his first step out of the circle and his 28 Dex and not slowing down.

If not, then some multiple chained and very reasonable sounding suggestion spells might have some highly comical effects.

It comes down to...you can't do anything to the trapped creature that it in turn could not do back to you. There's nothing in the planar binding language that allows you to charm, dominate, curse, geas, or otherwise cast spells on your trapped potential minion. Doing so has always been considered a breach of the circle.

A pure 20th level martial alone can potentially kill the lich if he gets suprise and a full attack...that's how much damage they do.

Tracking down the phylactery is a matter of asking the gods where it is. It is extremely difficult to hide things from higher powers. And the thing is, if you bury it somewhere thinking no one will find it, all sorts of things can happen to it because you aren't there to defend it. And if it IS defended...you just attracted attention to it.

Phylacteries are a real drag against high level parties who WILL make it a priority to go find them.

I will note that in 1E, if you magically treated a black star sapphire, it neutralized all chronomancy spells in a 60' radius. Quite the bummer for mages dependent on time Stop.

You can't Shrink Item on an enclosure, or basically anything big enough to cover you. Do the math. The Volume the thing encloses is far beyond the spell limits. So the Anti-magic defense does not work, either.

And why in the world would a lich be walking around with something that an accidental spell could cause to come into being and crash down on whatever he's doing at the moment?

Plus, what wizard memorizes 3 time stops a day? heh. Unless they know enemies are coming and they've got a specific strategy.

==Aelryinth

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Spell less ranger with FE: Constructs, Humans and Evil Outsiders would be a nasty picture, given how many robots he fights.

==Aelryinth

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The fremen didn't generally kill sardauker in open battle in dune - given the difference in gear, that was suicide. They tended to ambush them and kill them very quickly that way...which is why sneak attack and rogue levels aren't at all out of line. Suprise + Win init and you've a really good shot at taking down a fighter of equal (low) level.

==Aelryinth

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A prison for the murderous, turned into a source of murder.
A construct made for protection, turned into a source of death while paranoia warps the heart of a population and attempts to subvert justice.
An outside force tearing apart a fragile peace among the lycanthropes in furtherance of its ambitions.
A small town corrupted at its heart, sacrificing the few and innocent for the benefit of those giving them up.
Striking a deal with the rot at the center of Ustalav society, to deal with a greater evil...a paladin corrupted into evil by vampirism, and nobility by the desire to live forever.
and lastly, the greatest living scion of a family of a family immortalized for a legendary deed, now fallen and attempting to undo his ancestor's own greatness as his soul falls to true darkness.

Corruption oozes out of this AP, evil taking root and subverting what men do. I mean, seriously, the law in Ustalav basically totally ignores the vampiric threat that has dwelt beneath them for hundreds of years, while the noble class knows of it and includes them in their games. Eesh!

==Aelryinth

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More numbers are basically what the fighter class is.

You don't need to improve a fighter's combat numbers. But there are feats that expand options, but they are ridiculously less effective then simply taking feats that do add numbers.

Does taking the whole weapon spec tree down to one feat instead of 4 for a fighter add to a fighter's damage? No, it lets him spend feats on other things.

Does having Iron Will scale with a fighter's bravery numbers improve a fighter's offense? No, his DPR stays the same...but his defense improves.

Does having Combat Reflexes improve with his Armor Training add to his Offense? Maybe...but the cool thing is, he'll have more AoO's then anyone.

Does taking Dodge and have it turn his ARmor Training Dex bonus into a flat Dodge bonus improve his DPR? no, but he'll always get the benefit of his class AC bonus even if his Dex isn't 20.

Condensing feat chains down to one feat for fighters is the fighter 'super-power'. Other classes take feats that are equal to 1/2 of a class feature. Every level, the fighter gets to take feats that are full CLASS FEATURES.

That's awesome.

The biggest thing is it forces the re-writing of so many useless feat chains that fighters now never have to take.

==Aelryinth

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Fighters don't need unique feats.

Just have the feats everyone else can take auto-scale when taken by fighters. Solves that problem really fast.

==Aelryinth

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I think if the monk could move and make multiple attacks, complaints would cease...he would fully satisfy the archetype of a motile, agile damage dealer. He wouldn't have to do the most damage, because you could run around the battlefield like a demented imp and smack everything.

==Aelryinth

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Actually, it's totally lawful, it's ignoring the implications of using Evil.

It's ends justify the means.

You'd shift the guy towards LN. Using Evil Means to fight evil is not a good action, it's the easily justified and expeditious way out.

===Aelryinth

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I recall in a very old copy of Dragon Magazine (may have been just before issue #100, or just after), where they had an article that had a type of paladin for each of the 9 alignments. They had different names for each, only the LG variety was actually called a paladin. Would be a very cool idea to have incorporated into PF.

They were way overpowered relative to the Paladin and Anti-Paladin, but here they are:

Myrikhan - NG rangery paladin. FE...EVIL. +1/+1 Th/dmg evil/level.
Garath - CG Church guardian paladin
Lyan - OMFG nasty-powerful LN paladin. d12's, awesome spell list, +1/+1 th/dmg per level vs chaotics...and 500k xp to advance a level past 10th.
Paramander - TN manipulative theif-paladin, plays the alignments against one another.
Paramandyer - FM 'extinguisher of extreme alignments' assassin of paladins. Foe of all extreme alignments, in death there is balance.
Faran - CN barbarous tribal protector paladin. Non-tribal people are little more then intelligent beasts.
Illrigger - "unholy shiznit these guys are nasty ' assassin paladins knights. Stealth, armor, wizard and cleric spells, assasin kill %.
Aarikhan - NE hunt down and kill everyone anti-ranger paladins. Basically the anti-myrikhan.

These classes were nominally balanced by armor restrictions and xp required to advance. Lyans were the most expensive class to level that was ever published in 1E.

and I never understood why the Garaths were CG church guardians. CG doesn't seem to be the 'wait around and protect' alignment.

Paramandyers were cool. The story for the article is a little snip of a paladin riding out to confront an anti-paladin, only to make it to his keep and find the bastard strung up with the sigil of the paramandyer Fein inscribed on his armor...and knowing that Fein is going to come looking for him next...

==Aelryinth

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Updated List-

Ring of Sustenance
Efficient Quiver.
Handy Haversack.
Wand of Cure Light Wounds...Infernal Healing if you don't mind the source of the magic.
Bags of Holding/Pathfinder's Pouch.
Wayfinder with the Prot/Evil (Clear Spindle) Ioun stone that protects against mental effects.
Traveler's Any-tool.
Immovable Rod.
Wand of Lesser Restoration
Cloak of the Hedge Wizard sounds like it could be mixed and matched to anyone's usefulness.
Hat of Disguise.
Ioun Torch (or any object with Continual Flame cast on it. I like magnets, so I can stick em to a gauntlet, helm, or shield, or inside tubes with 'petals' I can flip open and closed.)
Feather Tokens (various sorts)
Shirt of Quick Running (banned from PFS, it's gotta be awesome).
Muleback Cords, if you can live without your Cloak of Resistance.

NON-PF
Travel Cloak subs for Ring of Sustenance to some degree. Hah, in the Jade Regent and current AP's with that cheap cold res! (1 day food/drink, cold res 5, and makes a tent!)
Bloodflower Salve (applies a CminorW on command after being administered, useful for autostabilizing someone downed - this would be the Stabilize cantrip in PF).
Spool of Endless Rope/Robe of Endless Twine if PF. (Comp Adv - for the possibilities, if nothing else)
Augment stones for weapons and armor (MIC) who could not love these?

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So, Diamond Soul is useless because you MIGHT have friendly spells fail on you, but you get the effect of a miss chance against all sorts of hostile magic, all the time?

If Spell Resistance was so useless for a PC, they would give it out to more classes. But they don't. Magic is one of the great dangers of the d20 universe, and flat 25-50% or higher miss chances before you even roll a save are an awesome defense...it's like having concealment against magic! Spell Resistance is pretty powerful, very important, and all you have to do is plan around it in the case of party buffs.

Parties regularly fight creatures with caster levels below their own, in which case Spell Resistance becomes even more important. And guess what? Caster levels top out at 20, and you get Diamond Soul at 13th. Basically, with CR+4 Boss encounters, you'll always have the 30% miss chance, and at later levels, it only gets BETTER once you're 17th+.

And there's the counter-argument to in-combat buffs...he has an excellent chance of simply ignoring mass AoE spells from the party casters of his level, and not even needing to save! "Target the monk with the nuke!" and all that.

Bravery...riiiiight.

==Aelryinth

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Because the instant he removed the ring, he empties the slots.

Then when he puts it back on, he's got 4 slots he just emptied back, and has to have 8 hours of rest before he can do anything...just like the rules.

As for the RoW viz sorcerors, it effectively gives wizards both spells slots and spells known at the same time. (shrugs) Is what it is.

The half-elf paragon surge isn't brought up and used for comparisons in the same manner that human FC benefit sorcs aren't used for the standard (I didn't in the example above, but they add +17 spells to spells known....3/2/2/2/2/2/2/2. If you can open a level 10 slot above 20, then they can add level 9 spells, too...)

And that reason is not all sorcs are half-elves or humans. Just like not all wizards are thassillonian specialists and can match sorcs for spell slots.

==Aelryinth

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I'd also like to point out that much of the wizard's attempt to look like a sorc relies on pearls of power to replicate the multicasts of one spell.

that tactic gets less and less useful by level, because of the quickly increasing costs of such toys. Pearls of Power tend to be bought at levels 1-4 for spells, spread out across all a character's levels...not many wizards kick out 81k for a level 9 pearl.

Without having to resort to extremely expensive tricks, Pages of Spell Knowledge, wands,and scrolls can easily grab up the lower level utility spells wizards most love, and the sorceror can still cast OVerland Flight 5 times a day, or something, enough for the whole party...and the wizard just isn't going to be able to do that.
Or cast the 4 chain lightnings to keep the froghemoth slowed, or the devils twitching and dancing.

It's all in the situations.

==Aelryinth

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Here's the original Spells Known Post.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nn33?Evocation-optimization#39

It also has spell power attached to it.

The problem with the 'hammer' analogy is the presumption that the sorc doesn't take any utility spells in their normal load out, which is pretty facetious. The early levels are the hardest on the sorceror with their standard load out. At later levels, humans do catch up and walk around with more spells known.

You're also trying to argue that the wizard gets feats the sorc doesn/t...which is unfair, because it's not matching those feats up against the bloodline powers that sorcs get, some of which can be item creation feats. You know, like the arcane bloodline gets.

The ring of wizardry doubles spells per day...not spell slots. For sorcs, that means spells known and spell slots. They had a FAQ around on it. It's mondo useful for sorcs. And extra spells known are not 'bonus spells'...theya re extra spells known.

a sorc plays his extra feats from his bloodline off against the feats wizards gain, and sorcs can get some unique stuff that wizards can't, too. Hey, I'm all for wizard discoveries. YOu know high level sorcs can learn how to pay the cost for Staves out of their own spell slots, so it never loses charges? There's a reason the staff of wishes is made by a sorc.

And Ashiel, you're bringing up Pearls of Power, and then turning around and poo-pooing Pages of Spell Knowledge, which the sorc is using to back into the wizard just like he's using Pearls to back into the sorc. It takes very minor feat investment, you know, no more then a cleric or ranger would do, to get access to neccessary stuff. And unlike the wizard, once he has a Page, he NEVER needs to make a scroll or wand of knock, because he'll always have the spell. In effect, Pages are the ultimate scroll/wand/staff combo for a sorc...and they are always cast like the sorc himself, he doesn't need to spend gold and a discovery on a wand!

Furthermore, the ability to swap out spells as you level means that slots diverted to offensive spells at early levels can be swapped out later for utility spells as you get more powerful high levels spells that do the same thing. Like wizards, sorc versatility increases with levels and slots.

The feat about spell preparation someone referenced in another thread. I know there was one in 3.5, did they replicate it in PF?

I'd also like to point out that sorceror Spells Known Progression is heavily nerfed. Wizards progress until they get 4 Spell slots/level (4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4). Sorcerors should end up at 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 (not including bloodline). Instead, they end up at 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3, which is blatantly unfair. There is a clear blip at level 2 where they bork the Spells Known progression.

Almost all of the criticism for the sorceror is levelled at them earlier in the game, when they do have less versatility. As you progress to the mid and later game, versatility becomes less and less of an issue as the sorc naturally diversifies into Spells Known at the same time the wizard is diversifying into Staying Power.

Even Seoni, who is basically a blasting wizard, gets more utility spells as she levels, and she's hardly optimized. Heck, they don't even give her traits, let alone the human FC bonus trait for Spells Known!

http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/iconic-characters/seoni---iconic-sorcere r

And y'know what? At level 6 she can still cast a Haste spell in basically every encounter for the day.

==Aelryinth

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Do I have to post the spells known comparison again?

Wizards don't actually have that many more spells known at one time then the sorc does,and this is especially true once you take the human favored class spell known into account. Sorcs can have a tremendous number of spells on tap all the time...and cast them repeatedly.

On top of that, they can use pages of Spell knowledge, wands, staves and scrolls for rare utility spells, just like the wizard. And a Ring of Wizardry doubles their spells known for a level...which stacks with that human favored class thing.

Isn't there even a feat where they can prepare a spell from a spell book?

The spells a level earlier is hardly a game breaker. It's NICE...but in practice it means one or two game sessions.

I will utterly and heartily agree that if a wizard knows what is coming; has fairly made the expansion of his spellbook a priority; and can dig out the perfect spell to deal with a situation; he roxors.

However, if he's caught at the same time with a general load out, which will likely be similar to what a sorceror has, he is at a distinct disadvantage relative, becuase he might have one spell that is useful...and that's the only spell he'll be able to cast, once.

The sorc can spam it as needed. Or take a lower spell up and make it more effective on the moment if he needs to.

They both have good points.
The tool belt analogy Ashiel posits isn't good, because it completely misses the angle of repeated use. The spells are more like ammunition. A general use wizard can have twenty types of ammunition, but he only can use each once unless he specifically plans to have more then one of each.
A sorc will have four types of ammunition, which can each be used five different ways and up to five times.

==Aelryinth

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strayshift wrote:

So a greater number spells to cast and better use of metamagic giving you far greater tactical flexibility, against a slightly slower spell progression and potentially less diversity (refer you to the human sorcerer note from earlier).

I'll take Sorcerer any day.

<please accept the following comment as a light-hearted bantering, I like both Sorcs and Wizards alike>

Did you seriously just claim that sorcerers have a greater tactical flexibility? Please turn in your pathfinder id badge :)

Seriously though, just two days ago, we were playing a battle where we were warned in advance of some 30 level 4 barbarians with 6 Advanced Trolls coming to attack a village, well over the EL of our 5 member level 9 party. Knowing full well what we were up against, we were able to prepare for the battle. I swapped my typical spells for a broader arrangement of aoe battlefield control spells, and several options to mitigate troll regeneration.

I tossed a phantasmal web onto the 6 trolls, which marginalized their effectiveness and our enlarged monk and barb/ranger with the help of some fireballs from the rogue, they cleaned them up nicely. (Which I would not have been able to do as a level 9 sorc doesn't have level 5 spells)

While they took care of the trolls, I turned my attention to the 15 barbarians on my side of the map. a Stone Call and an Obsidian Flow (which I intended for trolls, but we destroyed them too fast) later, all but 2 were stuck solid to the ground. Then after going to town with several preferred spell dragons breath AOE's the threat was over. I then turned my attention back to the other 15 barbarians on the other side of the map to help the other party members clean up.

Of course, my familiar was tossing out the enlarge person's and Haste from the wands she carries. After all, buffing others is a waste of my actions.. let the familiar do it :)

All in all only our rogue took any damage, and I took care of over half the mooks by myself, and neutered...

This is a textbook situation where the wizard is favored. It even takes place at a level where the wizard gets his spells earlier.

The counter-example is: You walk into a clearing at the same time a barbarian horde accompanied by a bunch of big trolls clears the other side. Roll initiative.

...and suddenly the wizard might have real problems. Tactical flexibility does indeed favor the sorceror...STRATEGIC flexibility favors the wizard. Sorc because if he has 1-2 spells that are useful in the situation, he can use them over and over...a wizard is unlikely to be able to do so. Wizard, because if he has time and knowledge to prepare, he can simply do more different things...but he needs that time and preparation, which makes it strategic, not tactical.

That Familiar must have a pretty good UMD, heh.

You've also got some very unusual spells there, which you probably somehow acquired and yet don't count against your WBL...another fact hand-waved for many wizards.

Note that Quick Learner feat allows a Sorc to gain an extra spell and a hit point every level, which is sweet.

And a Sorc with False life effectively has his own 'semi-healing spell' stored away for multiple use, something a wizard is highly unlikely to do.

==Aelryinth

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Last bite before I sleep.

The str fighter has same stats, 16 strength, 14 dex.
He has +3 to hit and damage, +4 damage with two handers and +4 damage with composite bows, +2 ac, +2 initiative, skills, reflex. He can wear any armor because he won't stealth as often, wear any shield because it's check penalty doesn't apply to his weapons, use any one or two handed weapon and not only light or exotic finesse only.

On top he has two spare feats and can apply power attack to his attacks (light weapons can't), he also carries more, swims better and climbs better and can break doors, objects and bindings and as mentioned above cmd. Chances are he's a full bab class compared to skill monkeys so he comes out ahead with to hit and iterative attacks.

The only time dex has more versatility if he plays rogue, ranger or bard who have skill points up their wazoo to Invest in dex skills. Druids and moments are arguable, utility those ttwo are fairly easy Tobin-max with either stat.

He has +3 Damage with Composite bows, and +2 to hit with missile weapons.

The Dex guy can wear any armor that allows his Dex, because he doesn't have to stealth, either. Unlike the Str user, he's going to be naturally good at Stealthing.
The dex wearer can use a Masterwork Darkwood or mithral light shield without penalty to anything if he so chooses, giving up at most 1 AC.
As noted, Power Attack and Piranha Attack both work for the dex user.
We're talking about building a dex-based melee build, probably a swashbuckling fighter, so they are both full BAB.

The Dex user with 20 Dex actually gains 1 pt of damage on two handed weapons, and 2 points on one handed weapons, because he's got a higher main stat (20 = +5 dmg).
His touch AC is 3 points higher.
He'll max out his fighter class Dex AC bonus all the way.
His default AC is 3 higher. So is his initiative, Reflex save, and many Dex-based skills (including the aforementioned Stealth).
His damage with bows is down...except with his extra +3 to hit, he can afford Deadly Aim and easily surpass the Strength bonus, and it applies to crossbows, where he can pick up an additional +3 damage with Sniper (+1/2 dex to damage).
He's a natural for a TWF build, because he's already got the Dex reqs. His higher TH means he actually hits as well as someone with a 16 Str while using two weapons!

All this for two feats, three if you include Deadly Aim. He hits more and does more damage with both melee and missile weapons, has better saves, better AC and Touch AC, better skill mods, and the only thing he loses is carrying capacity.

For two feats, why wouldn't you do this?

==Aelryinth

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Loyalist, the movement powers of the monk become less and less special with level.

haste gets everyone to move 60'. So does Fly. Both are more and more common late game. 90' move sounds cool, until you realize its basically overkill and you don't need that much movement for most fights.

==Aelryinth

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Nah, Shallow, the wizard isn't DUMB. The monk can survive melee, but he can't.

hence, he's either going to fly or get up out of reach, or put down some blockers first, be it a wall or summons. And when the baddies cluster up, he's going to take them down. Black Tentacles does double duty this way as blocking and damage.

And we're talking a 13th level caster here. There's all sorts of stuff you can do to the enemy. Heck, with Imp Invis, they aren't even going to know where he is at any given moment! I'm sure you could come up with some wicked combos with just a little thought. 10 mooks aren't going to last 10 rounds against a level 13 wizard.

==Aelryinth

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Wouldn't be suprised, although I don't remember what Kirthfinder's fighter actually had. Basically, it's just redefining the benefits of Armor Training so they are actually benefits, and redefining the capstone as part of a per-level DR increase like the barb. It's nothing revolutionary, but it's definitely fairer.

==Aelryinth