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Varisian Wanderer

Aelryinth's page

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16. RPG Superstar 2013 Star Voter, 2014 Star Voter. Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. 6,083 posts (6,146 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Fighters could benefit from an entire rewrite of skills.

Skill RANKS, not modifiers, should mean something. Someone with 15 Ranks in a skill should have something more then someone with +15 to the check.

So, you've just added a Skills rewrite to the Feats rewrite wish schema.

Oh, and I do a lot of that extra stuff.

I shifted Weapon Training to provide a virtual enhancement bonus to your weapon, in addition to the +. Now, it only goes up to +4, and it does require a masterwork weapon, but it does mean that once a fighter hits level 4, any master work weapon in his groups is now effectively magical. At 12th, it works fine against cold iron and silver DR, and at 16th ignores Adamantine DR. If it's magical, the virtual enhancement stacks up to +5, so fighters can start ignoring DR faster then any other class.

I have their armor training bonus apply as virtual enhancement to armor and/or shield, up to a max of +5. THEN, I give first str, then con, then Dex enhancement as a free exoskeleton enhancement for wearing armor. The enhancement bonus is -1 in light armor, par in medium, and +1 in full armor...encouraging the fighter to wear heavy armor.

So a fighter does not need that stupid belt, he gets the effect from class features. That aren't magical and work fine in an A-M shell.

As for extra stats...I went the opposite route. I give the fighter 2 stat points, given out 1 by 1, at every 4 levels, to his LOWEST ability scores.

Which rounds up those glaring weaknesses in stats, which is a beneficial side effect of his constant training.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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so who IS supposed to be the best rider? Some theif?!?

Sorry, warriors have historically ALWAYS been the best riders, because the whole art of riding evolved to carry soldiers to battle better, faster, harder.

Fighters create organizations as they get more powerful...either students clamoring for what they know or armies to get them what they want. Brufus the Barbarian may only want the roar of the crowd, but Marcus the Fighter is going to found a gladiatorial school and churn out the highly skilled warriors that crowd demands on top of being a top-flight, skilled draw himself.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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12) Foam gun

Bury people in rapidly solidifying foam, block line of sight, stop rampaging horses, snuff out fires, provide sugary goodness to lots of kids...it all depends on what type of foam!

Surprised no one mentioned a "heal other" gun from a certain tournament oriented game.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Why does a Cha-less fighter have followers?

Because he's a 12th level freaking badass. He's got fans and mavens and admirers who want to learn how to be a badass and bask in the radiance of someone who is just that incredible.

Cha is just a numbers modifier. High level is a thing all its own, and class features are meant to exemplify what high level heroes can do. One of those things could very easily be 'resonates with the hopes and dreams of the common men' and boom, instant followers who want to be just like you.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Barbarians are far better maneuver masters then fighters. They have the option of taking Strength Surge just like a fighter does Maneuver feats. +20 to a Combat Manuver check for the price of an immediate action dwarfs anything a fighter can dream of, and actually keeps maneuvers viable.

And note that while crits help a fighter at the very, very end game, that's only with his chosen weapon. As soon as he changes weapons, he's lost the fight again.

BUT...nobody complains about the fighter not being able to do damage. Truly. Comparing damage is pointless...nobody is comparing damage.

It's EVERYTHING ELSE.

===Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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I think it's more a case of 'unless the enemy is a complete offensive putz because he's built to be so defensive, the game is rocket tag.' Not because everyone is a glass cannon...it's because the standard offensive choices turn joe into a cannon, and default defenses into glass, without even any optimizing.

I mean, seriously, Mythic Vital Strike is a no brainer. you get the equivalent of a full attack in one swing. Sure, you get fewer crits, but you're almost guaranteed a hit.

But when you're dealing base 50 pts a swing, and then heap stuff on top of that, and multiply by four, and then maybe a crit or an extra swing on top of it...

That's not even optimizing, it's just common sense. 6-7x base damage will turn ANYTHING into glass. It's save or die with swords, with the save being your initiative roll.

==+Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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If the Barb is looking at Courageous and Furious, the Fighter at least should have gloves of dueling.

Not that it's going to matter much.

The net effect is that they're going to be pretty close on offense...except the barb gets his bonuses with all melee weapons, and the fighter gets a better bonus with a secondary weapon group missile weapon.

The Barb will destroy the fighter on saves. There is no comparison. The fighter has no recourse to equal this.

The barb has faster movement. This is increasingly important at higher levels.

The barb has more hit points when needed, AND a DR that starts early and applies at all levels, and can be stacked on. THe fighter can buy adamantine armor, or wait until level 20.

The barb has the option of Pounce and Come and Get ME, the two strongest melee options in the entire game.

The Fighter does not.

The barb has scaling bonuses to DR, Nat AC, and dodge that he can choose to take.

The Fighter does not.

The barb can get energy resistance, cut through spells, add his level to his strength check, and do this all multiple times a day.

The fighter...can cut thorugh 1 spell a day as an option? Inefficiently? Add +2 to a combat maneuver check?

There's just no comparison. The rage powers (and hey, extra rage power is a FEAT) just blow away the options and choices the fighter has available to him. Until you redo feats so they refer to fighter class abilities and scale them appropriately, the Fighter CANNOT compare.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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I don't call it 'vigor'. I call it 'soak.' Its also called 'warrior's magic.'

The completely unrealistic ability to fall from 200 feet onto concrete, get up and walk away? You soaked it, got a nosebleed, got up, walked away. Just like temporary hit points, in their way.

being able to deal with pure physical damage? Health. But health can rapidly reach inhuman levels, too. You simply have more life force, more magical reinforcement of your body, more ability to resist physical damage via spiritual reinforcement of the body.

Your beginning health is your con, add to it every level. Your hit dice are your Soak. RACIAL hit dice, such as most monster have, are health.

Only class levels grant soak. Soak lets you dodge the undodgable, survive the unsurvivable, and live through catastrophe without a scratch.

Most healing spells only affect health, not soak. Soak gets restored very quickly compared to health, at the rate of BAB/hour, and fighters get their fighter level back in it after every fight.

So, you have the abstract, totally magical, and the physical, which is infused magical (think of Health as akin to all the physical punishment anime characters take, and keep right on going). Soak is something you 'expend' by losing it to fight damage.

And there you roll up your hit points all into one...and give a healing bonus to martial characters. Wizards have crappy soak, but can infuse magic into their bones with a high Con score to become incredibly, magically tough. Warriors can do the same thing, but on top of that get loads of Soak (which they can train up easily!) and which comes back quickly to enable them to keep on trucking long after the casters run out of hp.

===Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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He needs holy or Good on his bow or arrows to overcome regen.

Other then that, he needs a +5 bow. Satisfies good and silver reqs.

Dimensional Locking is totally a thing on weapons. No teleport SLA for the Pit Fiend.

Winged boots are cheap and will keep him in range. Fighter probably had them at level 12.

Accuracy/Distance/Far Shot are totally doable and let the Fighter take him down from 500 yards.

A 42 AC isn't going to even slow a devoted archer down. With a +5 Bow, 30 dex, Weapon training/GWF, the fighter's TH STARTS at +41.

10d6 damage isn't going to get through the fighter's hit points in any amount of time, and that's if he was totally, utterly stupid and didn't buy a potion of fire resist or prot fire.

If that Pit Fiend is anywhere in range of a Manyshotting Fighter and thinks it can eat a full attack from an archer fighter, it's going to die.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

It's a good thing you're wrong, or we'd all be totally confused.

Weapon and armor enhancements have always been priced and treated differently, and their limits applied differently. Now you're trying to introduce a crazy patchquilt instead of the simple and direct means of treating them as separate additions. I can't imagine the pricing problems that would erupt if your method was true.

==Aelryinth

I'm glad following the RAW confuses you, since that seems to be what you take issue with, as that's all I'm extrapolating with here.

Both Armor/Shield and Weapon follow very similar, if not completely identical, rules. Base Price Bonus increases each follow a specific formula. You need a +1 enhancement (doesn't specify, so any kind of +1 could work in the case of a Shield) to apply special abilities, and you can't beat the hard cap of +10 through any basic means (Artifacts being an exception). This is universal among those subjects.

Shields can be enhanced as both an Armor item and a Weapon item. But Shields don't have any rules that allow them to circumvent them being over a +10 weapon item or +10 armor item. I'll also point out that while items don't specify what kind of +1 enhancement you get (in the case of shields), either event says a single weapon/armor cannot have a bonus higher than +10, regardless of where the source came from (again, Artifacts are an exception, and Double Weapons have a slight difference when it comes to this rule).

I also want you to explain to me how there would be confusion with pricing as well as the problems they could possibly present, and give examples as to how that's the case. I'll gladly solve all of these supposed "problems" that you think exist, even though I already solved Boring7's, which he didn't even calculate the total price properly, because he didn't read the rules I listed from the PRD correctly.

That's right, you're extrapolating, you're not reading. You wandered down the road of personal interpretation of corner cases in the English language and you're telling the rest of us we don't know how to read.

By your rules, having a +10 shield with a weapon enhancement is impossible...it will violate the 100k limit of +10 armor. Because, you know, you can't restrict one rule and then break another, right?

By your rules, is adding +Flaming to a +3 Shield possible? It's not enhanced as a weapon yet. But you're saying it is, since it counts towards the +10. So now you've introduced stacking questions that, you know, DON'T ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

What's the price? Are you starting at +1 for the weapon side? That's not right, it's the 4th enhancement, and by your rules, they stack. So, now, WHEN I put the enhancement on makes a difference. Flaming on a +1 Weapon-side shield is 6k. Flaming on a +2 Bashing armor-side is...what? 2k? 14k?

Guess what? Those timing questions NEVER HAPPEN either. Because it's irrelevant.

They don't apply, because armor enhancements are always treated separate from weapon, and you just follow the pricing rules side by side.

Always.

So a shield is a +10/+10 item, just like a double weapon. It's function as a weapon is completely separate from its function as armor. The only place they overlap is hardness and hit points and guess what? They are both enhancement bonuses and don't stack, so it's moot.

I get where you are coming from, but you are flat out WRONG. It's not an opinion, it's not a suddenly insightful reading of the rules, it's you taking something out of context without taking into consideration other existing rules. You're just wrong, dude. And you saying that everyone else, including the people who wrote the rules, have been wrong for nigh on twenty years is making the rest of us kind of laugh.

You are making the pricing schema unnecessarily complicated, and are quite literally ignoring 20 years of the game saying "Armor and Weapon enhancements are treated separately on the same item."

We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Yes, it's interesting...Count Jeggare from the PF books is literally the richest man in Cheliax, as he's the head of the richest noble family there.

All his good magic items are from adventuring, not buying them. He even notes that to raise his aide if he gets killed, he'd have to sell off an orchard.

Heh!

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Squirrel_Dude wrote:
First the non-sequitur.
DRS3 wrote:
By the by boxing punches are designed to use the added weight and padding of the glove to increase their effectiveness/speed. When using boxing techniques bare handed you have a much higher chance of incurring a type of injury known as a 'boxers fracture' which is where you break your ring finger slightly below the knuckle, partially because swinging quickly with power the lower knuckles tend to lead the hand and they are structurally weaker than the top two where the sweet spot in many Asian martial arts is located. The stances and techniques of olden times bare knuckle boxers would be applicable to a counter argument as the elbow down configuration aligns the arm much...

Yes, boxing gloves are designed to protect the hands of the wearer, and not the face of your opponent. I am aware. It's one of the points I used to hear people into MMA bring up as to why their sport is safer than boxing.

Now everything else.

DRS3 wrote:
Squirrel_Dude wrote:

It should also be noted just how slow 4 attacks would actually be is 6 seconds. That's less than a punch every second. But then it's not like actual humans have gotten off more hits than a Monk can with flurry of blows, in an actual fight against a real opponent or anything like that, right? Oh wait, they have. Notable moment is at timestamp 3:54. I count 11 actual hits landed by 3:59.

A Monk's and indeed most other martial character's speeds aren't even extraordinarily fast compared to what we've seen humans achieve.

Add a blade to that put his opponent in armor, yourself in armor as well with limited vision because of a helm. Now take away the hard backing of the ring post. Furthermore you are talking about a FORMER HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD. Not a typical human.

Furthermore, only 4-5 shots hit 'clean' in that flurry. Most of the lefts landed on the elbow of the guard or on the glove and at least one right

...

Ali might have been 5th level.

Moving your fists fast enough to hit a punching bag 5 times in 6 seconds is not landing 5 lethal blows in 6 seconds. 4 of the blows are just there to find a way for the 1 decent blow to make its way through. The rest are just spam.

Test: Was Ali able to punch out a grizzly bear?

I think we are all of the same opinion that if he walked up to a grizzly bear while floating like a butterfly, the bear would wonder at the little bee-stings and promptly rip him apart.

A 10th level monk CAN take out a grizzly bear. A 10th level monk can shatter the aluminum baseball bat in your hand with a hit. Ali ain't no 10th level.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Kindly note that in games with MacGuffin magic items, those magic items are often what we'd consider 'artifact class', with powers that can't be replicated by mere wizards, making them incredibly powerful and versatile for their weilders. In short, magic items are stronger then magic casters.

Put said magic items into the hands of skilled combatants, and wizards die.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Ninijo wrote:
I would argue against the bulk of their narrative power being in the hands of the individual making choices for them. I will never come close to the same level of narrative power as my wizard buddy when I'm playing a fighter because I can't just decide to make a separate plane of existence, I can't charm/dominate/geas (and no diplomacy/intimidation aren't substitutes for those), I can't turn metal to wood, I can't turn mud to rock, I can't f&%%ing fly (I am very sour about this). Oh and the a!%#%$# can make it storm so loud we get deafened, pour...

I think you're confusing the ability to do something with the means to do it. Sure, you can't charm/dominate/etc. someone, but you can use other means to do what you want (and honestly, calling in favors, blackmail,pulling rank or just good ol' threats of grievous bodily harm are a lot more interesting than a charm spell.) Sure, you can't turn metal to wood, but you can still sunder the door. Sure you can't fly, but you can still choose to go wherever you want to go, and then go there.

There's a difference between "not having the tools to do certain things" and "not having the narrative agency to shape the story in the ways you want." I mean, by the time a wizard can cast a single 9th level spell he will be 17th level. In the previous 17 levels, you probably have accomplished something in terms of political alliances, important figures who owe you favors, achieving wealth and social rank, joining secret societies, etc. The primary power of a character up in the upper reaches of these levels (17-20 or so) should be in "what they have already accomplished" not "what the mechanics allow them to do now."

I mean, by the time Robilar was a 13th level fighter he had 8 gods who owed him for their freedom...

No, you're confusing mechanics for play.

The ability to teleport, dominate, fabricate, create demiplanes...those are all things that shape the game mechanically. The wizard can DO these things.

What you're referring to is narrative play.

Allow me to restate: "When this cool PC hit 13th level, 8 gods owed him for their freedom...."

Freeing 8 Gods is not a class ability nor a mechanic. It's a result of game play. And game play granting perks has nothing to do with mechanics, and ANY class can do that.

"When Mordenkained hit 13th level, 8 gods owed him their freedom," is just as possible as Robilar in the context of a game.

"Robilar teleported himself halfway across the world," "Robilar instantly created himself a suit of adamantine armor", "Robilar fashioned his own little demiplane to relax in" and "Robilar made a simulacarum of Mordenkainen to serve as his butler and have some extra spell power around because he thought it was cool" are things requiring mechanical power the fighter does not have. Alternatives are NOT part of the fighter class...they are gifts of the gm.

That's the difference we're talking about.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Pretty sure lying is defined as chaotic, unless you are lying to actively do harm.

Carry on!

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Notes that is the basic storyline of the second book of the Pharasman atheist inquisitor. Except the perpetrators are angels, not paladins.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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DrDeth wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Actually 1E is a deathtrap, you are expected to be much, much more careful then in other editions, because healing resources are much, much harder to come by. You also take days, not minutes, to heal up when its time to do so.

Simply not true. Clerics could cast CLW just like today, there were potions, etc.

We had no issues with healing resources.

1) you couldn't buy the potions.

2) CLW did d8. no CMW until 2e. CSW was 4th level. Healing the whole party took DAYS if you were low on hit points. And you pretty much had to devote every spell slot to healing spells to make it happen.

A party of 10th level adventurers creeping out a dungeon at 10% of hit points and no spells could expect to have 3-4 days of downtime at least to get back to full health.

Actually you could. In Greyhawk, etc there were places to buy some simple items, and you could get healing at temples.

I played OD&D & AD&D for hours and hours for years and years and I never had that happen. One day at most.

Those healing potion sellers generally didn't come along towards 2E, and were HIGHLY situational...i.e. major metropolis. There was ONE potion seller in Waterdeep, probably the most detailed fantasy city ever made. Go up the coast to Neverwinter, and you were SOL.

Temples charged you an arm and a leg for healing spells, and generally only had a few spells per day. They charged you for each of them.

Neither means anything when you were out in the wilds adventuring. Unless the DM handwaved things so you had access to easy and cheap healing, it just wasn't available. But the game itself was MUCH skimpier on healing.

Also, remember that only Heal scaled in power. D8, 2d8+1 and 3d8+3 until you were 12th level. Ugh.

As a key point, I will note to you that one of the aspects of 'Gygaxian grognard play' is that the cleric is always assumed to be just a healer and loaded up on healing spells whenever possible. That's a trope because they needed all that healing, there just wasn't that much available, and the cleric had it all...and it was never enough to do a recovery for a full party down 80%.

Buying unlimited spells at temples and potions was not part of the core game. Actually, I'm surprised a Greyhawk game let you buy some from the churches, as usually those campaigns had a hard line about only providing services to the faithful, i.e. those who regularly tithed above and beyond paying for the spell.

Suffice it to say, your experience with healing is not the way most 1E gamers had it. Bill Webb, in his new book, even notes that healing is much more restricted, i.e. a 1E game style.

Seriously, one of the hugest breaks from 1E is the availability of easy healing, and #1 there is the Cure Light Wounds wand.
\
==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Actually 1E is a deathtrap, you are expected to be much, much more careful then in other editions, because healing resources are much, much harder to come by. You also take days, not minutes, to heal up when its time to do so.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Lunge will not get you AoO's. It only enhances your reach on your turn.

Combat Reflexes is generally not worth it unless you have both a reach weapon or some extra manner of generating AoO's on your own. I would suggest Extra Lay On Hands. The best class for Combat Reflexes is a barbarian with Come and Get Me, or a Fighter with Combat Patrol up and running, or maybe an archer with Snap Shot. Pure melee wielder? Not so much.

I actually suggest you go with a longsword build, shield optional (just use a buckler). If you don't need the AC, 2h the longsword. If you do, your sword and board is ready and available. It's good to have options. If you can wrangle a free katana proficiency from your DM, that would actually be perfect.

At higher levels you may want to take Unsanctioned Knowledge for putting non-paladin spells on your list...barkskin is a favorite for some.

You can also start taking Extra Mercies and building towards Ultimate Mercy (Raise Dead with no material comp cost!).

Also, if you're doing an Oathbound Paladin for extra smites, extra lay on hands is quite helpful in generating more smites for you.

As they said above, Power Attack is your go to all around damage dealer, you'll want it at 3. It dovetails nicely with the extra TH from your Smite.

Critical Focus is likely not necessary. You have better things to devote feats to then more crits...that's a fighter's job. Grab some extra mercies for condition removal.

Angelic Blood and Angelic Wings are a feat tax for flight, but flavorful. If you like them, go for it!

Your stat spread is fine. Remember to buy Charisma boosters as you go up in level, too. Your bonuses to saves is what makes you the tank of the team.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Technically, as spell like abilities are considered arcane, fey are of the First World, and the First World preceded this one, arcane magic did exist before divine. At least for mortals.

===Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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As far as omniscience, I like the Harry Dresden version. There are a lot of entities who have 'intellectus', meaning they can know whatever they want to know. However, they don't necessarily know the questions they must ask to find out.

The span of a true deity's attention is probably not so limited that they actually have to focus on something to learn about it...it's just that the vast majority of it isn't worth personal attention and just blurs into the background with all the lip service prayers.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Paragon Surge + Ring of SPell Knowledge: Go out, grab a level 1-4 spell, stick it in the Ring, have access to it all day.

Spontaneous Versatility: Scribe the spell you grabbed out of nowhere into your Spell book. Prepare it.

Turn it into a Page of SPell knowledge with Craft Wondrous Item.

Infinite Spells for your spell book, no need to grab them off a wizard.

1/day, use Arcane Bond to grab any spell you have access to. Since you can prepare spells, that's all spells in your spell book.

For spells of higher then level 1-4, use Scribe Scroll, expend the new spell, and make a scroll out of it. If there's a spell that allows you to do so, instantaneously drop it into your spell book instead (Fabricate may allow you to do so?). Prepare it at your leisure OR turn it into a Page of Spell Knowledge when you have the funds.

Wait, this ruling was supposed to be a restriction on Sorcerors getting access to all spells? All it did was slow it down a bit.

Aaaaand...you know that the Ring of Spell Knowledge lets you grab spells off other lists and cast them as one level higher, right? Where's this restriction on other lists, hmmm?

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Remember that slavery in and of itself is not Evil. Slavery arose as an alternative to the outright slaughter of enemies in wartime. Make them work for you instead of butchering them.

Slavery for the sake of slavery IS Evil. Enslaving others simply because you want slaves IS a bad thing.

This is why the practice of 'buying slaves to set them free' is useless. The slaver is STILL GETTING PAID. You've just given him an additional, unlimited market...every slave he brings to market you're potentially going to buy from him and set free, so he should actually go out and ENSLAVE EVEN MORE.

Slavery as a punishment for crimes; slavery as an alternative to incarceration or slaughter: these are neutral things, and actually a sign of advancing civilization.

Rewarding people for providing slaves is rewarding people for removing the freedom of others, and one of the great Evils of civilization. Paying others to act that way is only fostering the behavior, and no Good Church would ever be foolish enough to engage in the practice and encourage the very thing they want to be rid of.

In the end, the only ways to stop slavery are a) kill all the slavers, so there is no one to deliver the slaves or b) remove the market for slaves by changing the society so it isn't tolerated, meaning nobody buys slaves for sale, and there's no incentive to enslave others.

Anything else is simply feeding the machine.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Dead Phoenix wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
Paladins of Asmodeus have been retconned out of the setting, at least as NPCs with actual levels of paladin.

Correct. That wasn't a retcon, actually. That was us correcting an actual and legitimate error. In the same way if we spell the word "Wizard" as "Wziard," that doesn't mean that there are actually characters out there with levels in a new class called "Wziard."

I was so looking forward to playing a Wziard though! Are you saying there isn't going to be a book called Misspelled Class Guide?
There better be. The Rouge class is in serious need of a buff.

YOu so missed the chance to say she was in need of a makeover.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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No, I want them to burn the skill points. If they want to learn extra weapons, in reality that's just as hard as learning a new language or other skill.

Fighters and paladins are the only classes that start with prof in ALL martial weapons...fighters because that's what they are training for at level 1, and paladins because it's a gift when they answer The Call. All other full BAB classes start with a number of martial weapons equal to their starting skill points.

3/4 BAB classes start with Simple Weapon Prof, and Prof in 2 weapons from the list permitted to their class (which might be martial, monk, cleric, rogue, etc). They can spend skill points to learn more weapons on their list.

1/2 classes start with Simple Weapon Prof and 1 weapon. They can burn skill points if they want more.

The reason for this is very simple. It is to nobody's benefit to give weapon profs away for free, and make spellcasting and magical devices hard to get. If other classes have to spend skill points on UMD just for a chance to use common magical devices, then it follows that anyone wanting to learn a new weapon should at least have to burn skill points on it.

And, it gives Fighters a level 1 great benefit.

After level 1, if you multiclass into a class, you get the Prof 'eligibility', but you have to spend the skill points if you actually want a weapon. This is akin to a multiclassing new wizard not getting the free spells and cantrips that a level 1 wizard does, and so forth.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Capping stats like the COn bonus to HP above is a classic way of limiting player power and forcing them to rely on other things...like, oh, class skills.

Bill Webb takes this to extremes in his game (you can buy his guide). High stats give a +1 over normal stats...that's it! Almost everything is by class level.

BECMI limited you to 18. AD&D to 18 or 19 (25 for gods). 3E blew it wide open.

Limits are good things for balance...they set end points. End points are massive help in seeing how things balance out.

==Aelryinth

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FYI, 'rocket tag' is 'Whichever side goes first, wins.' This is because the opening strike is a) So huge the other party perishes or b) So devastating the other party can't recover or unleash it's own alpha strike and has either got to bail or be forced to lose the fight, and the extra rounds are just spent trying to stave off certain doom.

==Aelryinth

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For a three man party you have to maximize roles coverage. Every character has to be able to fill at least two roles, in case the main one goes down.

For condition removal, you'll need a cleric or life oracle. There's really no way around this. THe cleric is probably more ideal because as a prepared caster he can change his role emphasis from support to control to face to front liner every day as needed.

You need a front liner of some sort. Ideal is the paladin, who has built in healing, immunities, condition removal via mercies, a spell list, can use wands, and will have the Cha to be a decent party face.

For skills, you're probably going to want an urban ranger, if a second damage dealer is important, or an archeologist bard, if you want more skills/support/magic. Both perform the anti-traps role perfectly, have the skill points to invest in whatever your other two don't, and can be marvelously versatile, with options from animal companions to bardsong and other things.

Very key is that all three characters can use healing magic and wands without problems.

The Inquisitor and Magus get honorable mentions as excellent multi-role, but the first doesn't have the pure tanking ability of a paladin, quite, and the Magus isn't a nine level caster or a skill monkey. They would have to go into the paladin's niche, and it would change the nature of the party, but it could be done.

All that said, cleric-cleric-cleric with wise domains and spell loadouts can also do the job without too much problem. The combination of that much healing and condition removal with spell buffs will do the job without a problem.

==Aelryinth

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Insults only show the weakness of your arguments, FS. Please keep that in mind when you are being rude.

What you're doing is classic Oberoni Fallacy, confusing Roleplaying with mechanical effectiveness. It's not going to fly here.

==Aelryinth

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Mathwei, if it did real damage it would say so...ALL the shadow subschool spells that do real damage say so.

Since it doesn't...it doesn't. You're operating off a false premise that 100% real damage is the base.

==Aelryinth

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Ashiel wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
and the counter, Ashiel, is that treasure is not gear. If the gear was a constant monsters are supposed to have, it would be reflected in their stats.

*Ahem*

Bestiary wrote:
Treasure: The exact value of the creature's treasure depends on if you're running a slow, medium, or fast game, as summarized on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter. In cases where a creature has specific magical gear assigned to it, the assumption is a medium game—if you play a fast or slow game, you'll want to adjust the monster's gear as appropriate. “Standard” treasure indicates the total value of the creature's treasure is that of a CR equal to the average party level, as listed on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter. “Double” or “triple” treasure indicates the creature has double or triple this standard value. “Incidental” indicates the creature has half this standard value, and then only within the confines of its lair. “None” indicates that the creature normally has no treasure (as is typical for an unintelligent creature that has no real lair, although such creatures are often used to guard treasures of varying amounts). “NPC gear” indicates the monster has treasure as normal for an NPC of a level equal to the monster's CR.
Bestiary wrote:
Treasure standard (+1 unholy spiked chain, other treasure)
Bestiary wrote:
Treasure standard (+1 frost spear, other treasure)
Bestiary wrote:
Treasure triple (+1 longsword, +1 flaming composite longbow [+5 Str bonus], rope)
Bestiary wrote:
Treasure standard (glaive, other treasure)
Bestiary wrote:
Treasure double (+3 holy greatsword)
Bestiary wrote:
Treasure double (+2 disrupting warhammer)
Bestiary wrote:
Treasure double (+5 full plate, +5 dancing greatsword, +5 composite longbow [+9 Str bonus])
Bestiary wrote:
Treasure double (dagger, masterwork longbow with 20 arrows, other treasure)
Bestiary wrote:
Treasure standard (mwk falchion,
...

UM.

all that gear is reflected IN THEIR STATS, which DETERMINES THEIR CR.

Right?

And what you're proposing is to give them all sorts of other gear, but NOT reflect it in their CR.

Which is what I said? In other words, you just made my argument for me?

==Aelryinth

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and the counter, Ashiel, is that treasure is not gear. If the gear was a constant monsters are supposed to have, it would be reflected in their stats.

it is not.

Turning their treasure into their gear is NOT a reflection of the constant monster, and rapidly raises CR. You've effectively given him a Template for +0 CR. Your above ogre mage has +2 AC, +7 Damage on ranged attacks, +1 on saves, and +1 th/dmg with all attacks.

none of which is reflected in his stats, which determine his CR.

Monsters aren't NPCs. IF you're going to do this, then you need to adjust CR, because you're choosing to presume something that isn't true. It doesn't take a lot of cash to do slight number adjustments that blow CR out of the water. +1/+8 on ranged attacks is virtually tripling that Ogre Mage's ranged damage waaaaay above his CR level, for instance.

Ignoring that point of balance is going to quickly create some overpowered stuff, as has been proven every time you add a template for nothing. Treasure to gear for nothing is going to have much the same effect.

==Aelryinth

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I noted the answer to that post above. Remember to many monsters, what we call 'loot' is transitive and not valuable. It's also liken to be stolen, destroyed, actively used, wasted, ignored and the like.

Demons aren't people. Seriously, if they were intent on accumulating wealth...well, they can live FOREVER. Stick them on a prime material world and over a millennium they'll be sickly wealthy.

But mortal wealth has no great appeal for them, and it slips through their fingers. For monsters, it tends to get redistributed by favors, theft, destruction, misplacement, or the like.

Turning wealth into gear is NOT what the treasure is for. It'd be called out like NPC gear was, if that was so. So, turning loot into equipment drastically raises the challenge level of ANYTHING, right off the bat.

==Aelryinth

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Ashiel wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Ashiel, remember that your standard of running fiends is converting treasure to gear, and shifting feats to make them more dangerous. Yeah, that alone raises the CR over the core fiends by +2-3, right there.

False in every way. Changing feats and/or equipment on a monster doesn't change it's CR at all. Adding PC wealth is +1 CR. However, sorry, monsters use their treasure all the time. Notice the Maralith...

Treasure double (6 mwk longswords, other treasure)

Feats do not change CR.

Ash, come on.

BY THE RULES, such things don't change CR.

But realistically, if you take a marilith, and make all her weapons +1 Human bane, that has a tremendous impact on her combat capability.

If you take 10,000 gp of her loot and convert that into small + AC items and consumables, that has a huge effect on her stats.

Raising an NPC's gear to PC gear levels is a + CR raise, because it raises stats. But monsters don't have gear, unless specifically cited and included in their stats (note how the marilith's longswords are computed into her stats, DPR, etc).

If you suddenly give them gear, stats change, CR goes up.

And again, if you adjust feats, you drastically change what a creature is capable of. By the book, no, it won't change the CR...but realistically? The effect of a few feat changes can have a massive effect on how devastating a foe can be...as you've pointed out with your own examples. Get rid of the junk feats and give them other stuff, and suddenly they are hugely dangerous...effectively higher CR.

Remember that CR isn't just numbers...it is as much intuition as logic. Your very own examples provide proof of that. What you're trying to argue is the 'O CR Adjustment Template' argument, where some minor template added to a creature has this huge effect on it because of some devastating synergies. You're trying to argue the same thing, using feats, and we all know better.

'Non-optimized marilith' vs 'optimized marilith' is going to be freaking sad, yet they operate within the same base confines. Trying to argue this isn't really a de facto CR change is not going to sail through.

==Aelryinth

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Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Not using gear and changing feats makes the marilith even worse. A level 10 party can roll it over fairly easily.

With the right buffs up and correct gear, sure.

Just dropped in on them? Have to be a pretty dumb marilith.

==Aelryinth

If it doesn't have equipment how can the marilith prepare, and why is it wearing pounds of valuable jewelry/MMO loot for the party to get after the battle?

edit: The troop subtype is literally the best thing to happen to the hobby in forever.

It's treasure, not gear. And it's treasure the creature has, not that it is wearing.

Because, as was noted, it can't take it with itself. 50 pounds, that's all. And no item creation feats to customize, tyvm. And visiting the local mages and buying the stuff? Yeah, that'll happen.

I'm of the opinion monster loot should be loot, not gear. It's what they happen to have after killing/manipulating/acquiring stuff randomly, and what's left after using what they could. Yes, if there's something usable and portable, they should take to wearing it, if they are smart and can identify what it is.

But having customized gear? Sure, a PC will do that. But we're talking devils and demons who probably get new loot only to watch it get destroyed or stolen some time within the next century, and just sort of sigh and commit to not bothering with such transient stuff.

I mean, come one, if we're talking loot accumulation, any immortal outsider should be worth millions if they had any interest in acquiring wealth and belongings whatsoever. But such things have very little value to something as motile and concerned with other planar politics.

Meh. Just my take on the situation.

==Aelryinth

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You could run a tank build 'sort of' with a 3.5 Stand Still build, as you could literally force the enemy not to go anywhere, leaving you the only viable target (Stand Still doesn't work in PF as a feat). Thicket of Blades also meant they couldn't physically bypass you, and Proof against Teleportation up stopped dimensional shenanigans. You couldn't stop ranged attacks, of course, but you could handle most anything else.

But the ability to keep a monster in place, and make yourself the target instead of squishy casters, doesn't really happen here. Just look at your players. If the monsters can't make them draw fire instead of 'geeking the caster', why should they think the monsters will be that dumb?
===================================
I personally think that the reason melees are second string is not because they can't do viable damage, they can, but because there are too many ways to take them out of the equation.

Without superior defenses and ability to avoid/shut down magic, melees are always going to be second string. They simply don't bring enough defenses and flexibility to the table to justify an offensive ability which can be rivaled by many other classes, who also get spellcasting on top.

UP the defenses to specifically include things that defy magical tricks to shut them down, and yeah, the only way to stop the melee coming at you is with another melee, not a spell or two that incapacitates him almost effortlessly.

==Aelryinth

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His point is not that they aren't effective.

His point is that the caster can do other, extremely effective things that don't require there to be a fighter along.

So, instead of casting a spell which helps someone else attack more effectively, he instead casts an attack spell himself, which might end the fight or an opponent right there instead.

You see the difference?

And that situation will not change until there's a lot more anti-magic or spellcasting is made more dangerous to use in combat. It's just the nature of the system.

==Aelryinth

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As a note on the Marilith thing, in Wrath of the Righteous, there's a Marilith there that basically gets 12 attacks because she's two headed and twelve armed. Suffers from the entire problem Ashiel noted...she's probably not even going to be able to hit the PC's in that module.

Whereas the elder giant prisoner held in her prison can likely butcher her because it does enough damage to get past her DR, and she doesn't, in return.

==Aelryinth

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Burning AoO's for other actions then attacks should totally be a thing, too.

===Aelryinth

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Phoebus Alexandros wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Dexterity in PF has nothing to do with SPEED.

Speed in terms of how far you can move in a round? Of course not. But so what? Pathfinder would tell you that all human beings that carry the same amount of weight can cover the same amount of ground in six seconds. That's absolutely silly.

Speed in terms of how "quick" you are? Absolutely:

prd wrote:
Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.

What is being "agile"?

Merriam-Webster Dictionary wrote:

adjective \ˈa-jəl, -ˌjī(-ə)l\

: able to move quickly and easily

Quote:

The ability to move quickly is an effect of POWER, which is guided by a strength to weight ratio, and by BAB, which is almost as much about ingrained movement.

High Dex means you move precisely and smoothly. It does not mean you move FAST. Your reaction time is excellent, but that doesn't make your fist move faster.

The strength-to-weight ratio that you're referencing is not accurately represented in the game. In Pathfinder, as with every other iteration of the game, the higher one's Strength score is, the greater their bonus to melee attack rolls will be. It's not just that, though: the higher one's Strength score, the higher their weightlifting ability is. Comparatively small martial artists, fencers, etc., lack "circus strongman"-level weightlifting ability, but are quite capable of striking much more quickly than those who do have it. That's a function of strength-to-weight ratio that, again, is not reflected in the game.

On the other hand, someone with more muscle mass will - everything else being equal - always do more damage than the person with less muscle mass when their respective blows connect equally well.

Quote:
Speed of attack is purely a function of BAB...how fast you move your weapon repeatedly and capitalize on opportunities is a result of practice and skill.
The Base Attack Bonus is not a function of speed. It is a function of "skill in combat" and translates as accuracy....

1) There is nothing in PF where Dex modifies your actual speed.

2) Agility notably includes flexibility and ease of movement, which is what you are glossing over. If you can't move easily, you aren't moving quickly. And you can be quite agile and not all that quick, if you're capable of twisting yourself into a pretzel.

3) The Strength to weight ratio is reflected in the Str To-Hit. You have more control over objects because they are lighter to you. A brute with 24 Str can handle a greatsword as easily as a fencer with 10 Str can handle a rapier. Except, well, he's using a GREATSWORD.

4) Circus Strongmen are not highly skilled fighters. Lighter people move quickly, but have little force behind the blows. If they were trying to match force, they'd not be able to rat a tat. It's like comparing a drum stick to a mace for beating on a tom tom. Lightness =/= speed. Anybody using something light moves faster with it.

5)BAB has a function of speed, in addition to accuracy. All you have to do is look at the little mechanic called 'multiple attacks'...you get more as your BAB goes up. You execute more attacks in the same amount of time...your weapon is moving faster. Yet your Dex hasn't changed.

--
The Dexterity check for a race between two characters is effectively an initiative check. They don't actually cover any more distance with a high Dex.

You could also make a case for Combat Reflexes and the extra attacks given by a Dex mod, but that's more likened to quick reflexes taking advantage of opportunities, as opposed to always having multiple attacks all the time. i.e. if someone doesn't trigger an opening, you don't get any extra attacks.

Accuracy is about control, and the biggest factor of control is how heavy the object is to how strong you are. That's why many people use light weapons...not because they are using Dex, but because they can control the light weapon more easily. Big people use bigger weapons because they can still control them easily. Big people also HAVE bigger weapons in their arms and fists, hence their 'low weight' threshold is much higher then that of small people. That's not about Dex...that's size and strength. If Batman's fist weighs twice that of a teenage Kung fu star who thinks she's all that...yes, she's probably going to be faster, but that doesn't mean she's got more dex. It means she's LIGHTER.

If you want an example of high speed high strength, watch Olympic hammer tossing. Those guys are huge, and when they start spinning to throw that hammer, it is MOVING. They need great control, great skill, and great strength to do their job. Saying 'weightlifters' is a complete misnomer when talking about Strength. Those guys are not trained to hit people. Say 'heavyweight boxer', and now you've got an applicable example.

As was pointed out with the 18 dex/10 Str guy vs 18 Str 10 Dex, using finesse combat is unnatural and HARD. You have to be extremely precise, go through all sorts of extra motion, take advantage of angles and leverage with very little margin for error. You can't take a heavy blow head on, you MUST deflect it correctly or it's simply going to barrel right through you. It takes a great amount of training to do properly.

As for touch attacks, note you can still deflect/parry a touch attack, and a strong man has a better chance of getting through a parry. He'll also likely have the longer weapon!

In short, the entire 'I have great coordination, I can hit stuff' function is BAB and combat training, not Dex, in Pathfinder. Dex is subsumed to be the hit bonus for ranged combat, and Str for melee combat. BAB is the equivalent of 'Perform: Weapon Drill' in this respect, except more important because it applies to live combat.

Another way of looking at it is: High Str: Blocks easily, hard to parry. High Dex: Avoids easily, blocked easily.

And one last truism: The skilled big man will beat the skilled little man, all other things being equal. A Heavyweight boxer will maul a boxer of lighter weight categories, the difference in strength is too much.

And don't bring up UMA and the Gracie's. Yep, little guy beat big guys...using an attack style they weren't all that familiar with. Now the big guys are learning it, and guess what? the big guys are winning the matches again.

==Aelryinth

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Saigo, the paladin is no more MAD then the Fighter. Where the Fighter needs Will to bump his poor Will save and dumps Cha, the paladin HAS a Strong Will Save, and dumps Wis to take Cha instead. With the Wis penalty, he STLL ENDS UP WITH A BETTER STARTING WILL SAVE THEN THE FIGHTER.

Oh, and Iron WIll is a general feat, not a combat feat. Remember that.

Net Win: Paladin, as he gets a LOT of benefit out of a high CHA, and the fighter just gets a small mod to his Will save. The Paladin gets Cha mod to ALL HIS SAVES. Oh, and it boosts his spells, number of spells, lay on hands...Synergy.

Yeah, that's fair, right?

Armor Training: This is not a Fighter AC buff. YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE DEX. In the very latest AP book, there's a fighter/ll. Armor Training 3. Half Plate. DEX 14.

He is getting NO BENEFIT FROM HIS ARMOR TRAINING 3...because he doesn't have the dex.

Compare to a MOnk. They get a 4 pt AC bonus over their levels. Straight up AC, no need to have a Dex to the moon to get it. Synergy.

The Ranger buffs Will like a Fighter. However, Rangers get Wis-based spells. HE has an incentive to buy Wis boosters, and get even more spells out of them. Synergy.

==Aelryinth

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Dexterity in PF has nothing to do with SPEED.

Let me repeat that. Dexterity in PF has nothing to do with SPEED.

A high Dex does not make you move faster.
A high Dex does not grant you additional attacks.
A high Dex does not let you actually gain more attacks with your off hand more easily.
Hardcoded into the rule, using Dex as a basis for fighting is not natural and is born out by real world fighters.

The ability to move quickly is an effect of POWER, which is guided by a strength to weight ratio, and by BAB, which is almost as much about ingrained movement.

High Dex means you move precisely and smoothly. It does not mean you move FAST. Your reaction time is excellent, but that doesn't make your fist move faster.

Speed of attack is purely a function of BAB...how fast you move your weapon repeatedly and capitalize on opportunities is a result of practice and skill. Someone with a high BAB will look marvelously coordinated and graceful simply because they fight and practice those moves so much even if they don't have natural stats to back them up.

Strength is used for To-Hit because it accurately reflects POWER, i.e. movement over time. Someone who is strong can move something faster then someone who is weak. It's a fact of life. And if you can move something faster in combat, you can hit something more easily. Your weapon moves more quickly to the openings you pick up.

Finesse fighting is all about pinpoint precision and coordination. It is DIFFICULT TO DO. You can't take a parry head on like a str fighter. Small fractions of an inch or a few degrees off, and your techniques fail. High Dex people use it because they are the only ones who have the coordination to use that level of precision when fighting.

And no, you aren't 'striking at weak points.' EVERYONE strikes at the weak points! That's what fighters DO. However, you don't have the strength or power to get through the hard points like most fighters do, so you actually have a MORE LIMITED NUMBER OF TARGETS IN MELEE. Which means your style is again, harder to do and harder to pull off.

Swirly, showy swordplay in movies is "Perform: Sword Dancing." Spin moves are a way to get yourself killed in a real fight, you don't take your eyes off an opponent if you can help it.

Dexterity as defined in PF has absolutely nothing to do with your speed in any capacity. THe closest you can get is reaction time for Initiative. What you keep thinking is Dexterity is BAB...the fruits of long, hard practice to get good at something.

==Aelryinth

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Parkour has another name in the game. It's called a Tumble Check. ANd yes, Jumping is a part of normal movement, so you can totally jump over things on a charge without skipping a beat. The duelist can go through it all without making a tumble or jumping check, however.

==Aelryinth

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archmagi1 wrote:

Yes, though you'd really need to be level 12 before you could ignore both hot and cold entirely.

CRB:Environment wrote:
Extreme cold (below –20° F) deals 1d6 points of lethal damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage.

and

CRB:Environment wrote:
Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of fire damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a –4 penalty on their saves.

and

ACG:Humans wrote:
Paladin: Add +1 to the paladin's energy resistance to one kind of energy (maximum +10).

That's 1d6 damage per minute. Energy Resistance applies per circumstance, per round. So, 1 pt of Fire res = minimum of 10 Res/Minute.

1 pt of Fire and Cold each does the job completely for all mundane temperature conditions.

==Aelryinth

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Witchfires. Incorp undead and devastating ranged attack.

Humanoids with NPC warrior levels. A Gnoll Warrior/10 is CR 5.

Succubi are famous for their CR having a nigh-unbeatable save DC against Charm Monster.

==Aelryinth

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LazarX wrote:
Kimera757 wrote:

You need the Big Six:

Magic weapon
Magic armor & shield
Ring of protection
Cloak of resistance
Amulet of natural armor
Ability-score boosters

Also something to fly, for when you're trapped by magic, to see the invisible, etc.

The Big Six will vary by class. I doubt a wizard is going to have much use for the first two.

Replace the magic weapon with a Metamagic Rod, probably lesser Ectoplasmic for your first one, and others as you get the coin. Incorps have no str score, so Ectoplasmic Webs totally bollox them.

Instead of magic armor, you're eventually going to get bracers of defense. Note that wearing a mithral kilt is going to cancel out bracers COMPLETELY, or vice versa...so will casting Mage armor.

You want a Ring of Sustenance, so you never get caught sleeping, and won't ever run out of food or water.

You want a CLW wand because it's the cheapest way of healing yourself that's widely accepted.

You'll want some means to fly, because when you need to fly, you need to fly. Potions early, winged boots later.

You want something to carry gear and loot. The Haversack is classic, but there's smaller versions permissible. For pure ability to carry coins and gems loot, an Abundant Quiver stuffed with hollow poles the size of javelins and staves can hold immense amounts of coin...and still have room for all your wands.

Wands of spells that you don't need often, aren't caster level dependent, but when you need them, you might need them for everybody. Knock, Resist Energy, etc.

Some way to sense the invisible.

Some way to do AoE damage, even if it's just alchemist fire.

A way to bypass all DR you run up against...silver, cold iron, whatever. Oils of align weapon and silversheen and the like if you don't have +3 to +5 gear.

The Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier is an insight bonus to AC, which is hard to come by, and negates a crit. One of the best things you can buy.

A Wayfinder with the ioun stone that makes you immune to mind control magic from evil casters.

If you are a Wizard, Pearls of Power for cheap repeating spells.
If you are a sorcerer, Pages of Spell Knowledge for extra spells known.

At some point, an adamantine weapon. Cause the best way to knock a door down and surprise people is to instead come through the wall next to it.

At later levels, a Death Ward or something similar. Because all that negative energy stuff deserves being useless.

Some way to see the invisible. A Permanent Spell would be nice.

If you're a melee, some way to put up an Antimagic Shell around yourself and screw the enemy caster might be a good investment at higher levels.

FOr prepared casters, scrolls of those rarely used spells you don't want to dig out of your books and have to memorize, but that can absolutely save the day. Like, say, water-breathing.
Spont casters, too, even moreso, but you'll probably have to buy them.

For wizards...lots of spells in your spellbooks. So you have the solution to the problem, even if it takes time to get it.

==Aelryinth

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Example 1) also, the parties going to be married don't want to get married, and want to elope with their true loves. If they do, it's war.

fun times.

2) Slavery came about as an alternative to killing prisoners of war. The CG paladin's order has completely shut down the slaving trade, so the nations that used to sell off prisoners are now slaughtering them all, as they have no means nor desire to support them, and certainly aren't going to release them to go back to their hereditary enemies.

Because they don't have a more humane way of relieving themselves of prisoners, the 9neutral) nations are now instead simply slaughtering thousands of the helpless. What does the CG paladin do?

Oh, and remember, the CG paladin can't address the rulers of these nations by their proper titles, bow to them, salute them, or treat them any differently then any other person, because that would be showing obedience. Mmm.
===================
Lie, Cheating, and stealing is part of what a Chaotic character can do. They don't HAVE to do it, but they CAN, and without penalty, as long as nobody is harmed.

Yeah, the bard is free to knock up all the pretty girls and walk away from providing for the children. Wootie, great chaotic mindset...only women are responsible for the kids! And maybe not even then! Orphanages should be overflowing with kids women dumped on them and walked away from, letting someone else take care of their mistakes is fine and dandy and all.

Oh, and Harry Dresden doesn't break his own rules. That's his key point. He's perfectly willing to break all of other people's rules that aren't relevant to what he's doing (beating up Cassius Snakeface when the knights had to walk away still makes me laugh), but then, he's not a Knight of the Cross, who get special abilities BECAUSE they follow those rules.

And like it or not, there's fey rules he has to follow now, because he's the Winter Knight.

But being too stubborn to let others change him isn't a CG mindset, either. He's got his rules and he's sticking to them. I'd make him solidly NG...innately disciplined, methodical and habitual, but willing to be innovative and get off the road when necessary to get the job done.

But blind obedience to how others see the law? Nah. I'll agree with you there. His respect for laws tends to take a much different twist.

But CG? Don't see it. Not emotional enough. Too stubborn and emotionally stupid that way. Overthinks things and isn't THAT impulsive (except for maybe his motormouth, but that's a defense mechanism a lot of jokers have).

McClane is a highly trained officer of the law inside a situation where he can correctly judge what is going on, where those outside cannot, especially with his limited communication. Ignoring orders that would get actual civilians killed because those giving the orders don't know the situation does not make him Chaotic. If he didn't know laws, rules, and regulations and be willing to abide them in the first place, he never would have been a policeman to begin with. Getting thrown into a very unconventional and perilous position to deal with doesn't suddenly alter alignment! It just shows his resourcefulness and adaptability...and those aren't traits restricted to the chaotic, either.

==Aelryinth

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Keep in mind, too, that most of the 'quarterstaff' stuff you're seeing in movies is actually "Performance (weapon display)".

Classic quarterstaff work, like any bludgeoning weapon, relies to a major degree on excellent upper-body strength. The whole thing with spin moves and stuff is peacock fluff, showy stuff you wouldn't do in a real fight because it wastes motion and leaves you open.

When you see excellent staff work, in real combat situations, what you're actually seeing is "Higher BAB". You can be of average dexterity, and high BAB is going to make your weapons HUM, because you know how to use them and get them to hit things.

Also, remember that while a staff is a decent dueling weapon on an open field against a single opponent, mainly because of its reach and the fact it has two ends, there's a reason that no army in its right mind took staves onto a battlefield. Against an armored foe, or in constricted conditions, staves SUCK.

Staves are simple weapons, because spears and maces do their job better.

Just my 2p. Finessing a staff just strikes me as very unrealistic from a practical bent.

But Arachnofiend showed you how to do it, if you want to.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Robin Hood totally stole from the rich and gave mostly to himself...and then spent the money with the poor, as well, effectively returning their tax dollars to them. He also happily lived off the land, killed the king's deer, squatted in the king's forest, etc etc. Kindly note that most of his men were actually 'the poor'!

Han Solo is iconic CG - happy to break laws as long as he made a buck, but he drew the lines in many places, slavery being the most notable of them.

And anyone's 'actions' can benefit the greater good. Whether your motives are to actually do so is something quite different. Chaotics are fun in that regard because you can play them lawful or crazy as the situation dictates.

Lying, cheating, and stealing are all iconic actions of CG people, as long as no true harm is done. And it's the admittance of this whole class of behaviors into getting all the benefits of a 'paladin' which has so many of us hard-set against it.

If there's no reward for virtue, why be virtuous? The paladin is the exemplar of giving up flexibility in actions for power in those actions allowed him.

If all you want to do is call him a bundle of mechanical benefits, you're really missing the point of what he's supposed to represent.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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'The greater good' is NOT CG. Chaotic Good is 'do what you want, with respect and goodwill for others.' 'The Greater Good' is a mantra of being Lawful, actually. It's the reason we have laws in the first place!!!

Can CG sacrifice for others? Sure. But he'd have to have a very good reason to, and he's also happy to lie, cheat and steal to feather his own bed, as long as nobody actually gets hurt (the CG theif is probably the most iconic trope for CG). He's not likely to be charitable, unless he gets something out of it...CG is about the self, not everyone else. Sure, he'll help his friends out, but he'll expect to be repaid in one way or another.
================================

That CG code is a living suicide mission.
CG characters often live or die by their oaths and promises. The fact they consider their personal honor greater then the laws and rules of others is one of the main tenets of being CG. A Lawful Good character would swallow his honor and break a vow for the good of his family and his king...or try to find some way to work around the restriction. The Chaotic Good character will simply do what his heart says is right, in the face of adversity from friends, family, and stuff.

Doffing a hat and bowing are signs of respect, not obedience. Such a rule is also likely to be fatal in many courts...meaning you are restricting yourself to actions which will get you killed, AND the many traditions (not laws) that help society stay together you are actively ignoring.
Personal power is huge in CG. One of the other tenets of Chaotic philosophies is 'your rule is exactly as far as your reach.' The king can make you bow and scrape, but the instant he can't take your head for it, you're on your feet and saying whatever you want to...as long as it isn't treason that will catch his ear and have the bounty hunters after you, of course! Chaotics are eminently practical in that manner.

Throwing someone in prison is little different then shoving a Mark of Justice on them. Having someone repay a debt is not lawful, it is simply fair. The CG person will, however, make sure the person is freed once the debt is repaid.
YOu can kill someone, but can't charm them to prevent loss of life. Neat.

Ah, so he'd stay married to a woman who adultered on him, instead of throwing her out of the house? Good to know. Can't punish her for being randy, after all (or vice versa for the gender). Can't punish a man for not providing for his family? Yep, he can walk away and leave the lady and little ones to get by however. He never wanted to support them, anyways. All them bards who get the lord's daughters pregnant and skip town, yeah, they're totally in the right of things.

Can't make promises, meaning has no personal honor. Willingness to uphold oaths in the face of all sorts of opposition, just because it's YOUR oath? Nope, can't make an oath. I suppose that leaves you free to just change your mind at will, then.

CG code? I'm seeing insanity, really.

==Aelryinth

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