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Bit of thread necromancy here, but what about this line...
Pathfinder Familiars section wrote:
Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.
Does it not, for purposes of the familiar, mean your caster level is higher?
So, for an example of my own, could I have a level 5 Gunslinger (Buccaneer) / level 2 Witch with a lyrakien? Since for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level the total level is 7?
Well that's a stealth errata. When did they switch it from bonus spells per day to spells known at lvl 1?
I have the first printing of the ARG, and it says spells known at 1st level.
That said, I read it as Con replaces Int for all class abilities. So, when I had a player run a Scarred Witch Doctor I allowed bonus spells per day based on his Con.
Okay, that's what I thought, but wanted to be sure before I fully decided that I want to make her a Lunar oracle.
If you are a natural lycanthrope and you gain immunity to lycanthropy (for example of what prompted the question, I am making a werewolf oracle with the Lunar mystery which can take "Mantle of Moonlight" that makes one immune to Lycanthropy among other combat benefits vs. lycanthropes), does it not matter because you are natural, can you not take such an ability, or do you lose your werewolf abilities?
I'm not talking about PvP, first of all.
Second, we're comparing two methods of obtaining wings. Other things you can do sure, you can throw Wish spells in at level 20. Wish for permanent wings, why not (probably out of the scope of a wish I know)? But, in comparing the two wing abilities, I don't feel that "other options for locking down an opponent" matter because I am comparing flight capability of the two options. If you are making a level 15+ character, you're better off going for On Dark Wings because there are no limits.
OH I agree somewhat, the fact that I even let him roll in the first place and didn't just say "You know nothing about black-blooded oracles" is because he was an oracle. However, seeing as he was a Kitsune oracle from Tian-Xia, I figured even as an oracle it was highly unlikely he knew anything about a curse that is rare outside the Darklands. I decided the difficulty would be 30 (the max) without knowing that he was one level away from being able to make it even with a 20.
As for what skill, it would for Druids I think be knowledge Nature (or maybe Religion, but I think more likely Nature for druids) For oracles, it's Religion. Arcane classes would be Arcana... Then if like say a player of a bard was like "Hey, can I roll knowledge arcana to know about bard archetypes" I'd probably let him too.
But, my problem wasn't so much that I didn't want him to know, as that he just assumed he knew it just because he was an oracle without even asking "Sounds like she's a Black-Blooded Oracle, would I recognize her as such?" when I hadn't even said that's what she was, all I said was she was cold to the touch and when she was cut black blood splashed on the cleric and she hissed in pain.
Another thing that annoys me is when players just assume they know something in character. Like for example, when the tongues cursed oracle meets a young girl and a cleric is doing some tests on her to see what's wrong with her and why her body temperature is so cold, the player is like "OH she's a black-blooded oracle, her blood is black runs cold and she's got a negative energy affinity as if she were undead" like being a level 3 oracle gives him an automatic 30 on all oracle related things. Then when I say he needs to make a roll and he gets a 29 (rolled a 20 and had a +9 bonus), as I decided that black-blooded oracles are DC 30 to know about outside of the darklands, he got even more mad trying to say no DC can be higher than 25, forcing me to pull out the book to show him the DC can be as high as 30. Which, yeah me being the GM should have made the 30 DC okay, but he thought he shouldn't have needed the roll in the first place, he's not going to accept an impossible at his level DC.
The Morphling wrote:
I have a player that is like that (although he recently moved out of town for a new job, so we probably won't be playing anymore for awhile) I tend to let him get away with it just because it's easier to do so than to hold up the game for twenty minutes debating how Stealth works. But, he usually sets his rogues up to be snipers, maxes out his stealth, stealth feats, etc. Even takes the sniper archetype. The party just assumes he's following when they travel because he's ALWAYS stealthed.
James Jacobs wrote:
Ah, yeah I see what you mean, kinda. I guess at the very least as long as they players don't think as I said, "oh look some stupid ghosts ran by us" but instead get the right idea that oh the ghosts are people who died in a fire here...
Hank the Bugbear wrote:
Except that an 8th level spell would be different enough that you would have reason to use the 4th level still sometimes, and even if it's not much different (say Cure Critical is clearly better than Cure Light, but of course its higher level) you are still limited to how many times you can use the higher level version, plus if you only need to cure 8hp, why waste your Cure Criticals? However, if you had Wings of Fire AND On Dark Wings, Wings of Fire would become worthless as soon as you got On Dark Wings because they both do exactly the same thing, other than the limitations on usage time.
So, when the Infernal winged person decides to fly away and the Oracle wings person follows.... well, the Infernal escapes because he's got unlimited flight time and the oracle better make sure he's not too high up when his time expires, a danger the Infernal doesn't have.
You're kidding yourself if you don't think 8 levels is a LONG time. Flame oracle pays for a swift action each fight to get it much earlier, since 7 minutes will be enough for your fights and some puzzle solving. They just can't have them out all the time.
Well, right I realize that, but maybe the ability should improve at higher levels then? Because, as it stands looking at a level 20 character... An Infernal Sorcerer's wings are hands down better than the Flame Oracle's.
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Um, as the OP I will correct you on that, this is not for a PFS character, so PFS rules do not matter to me... unless the person you are talking to with the ranger said his was a PFS character? Either way, this thread isn't in the PFS forum, and as the OP looking for ADVICE, PFS rulings don't matter to me, just the RAW.
Like for example on how PFS rules differ from the RAW, it was said that a Half-Orc counts as both human and orc for all feats and effects related to race. So, the Half-Orc can take the Racial Heritage feat. So, take Racial Heritage Elf. Then, now that they are a Human, Elf, and Orc, they can then take an Elf Only Class Archetype as a Half-Orc. This is allowed by the RAW, it is not allowed in PFS, nor even is the Half-Orc allowed to take Orc Archetypes or Human Archetypes... They are a Half-Orc ONLY, in regards to Archetypes.
So, if this was in the PFS section of the forums, this would matter to me. Since it's not in the PFS, I really don't care about PFS rules.
I apologize if this is coming off a bit rude (I hope it's not), but I don't play PFS and so I tend to get frustrated when players come in trying to impose PFS House Rules on me over the RAW.
As for my character, Fanglords DO get a bite attack, so there is no reason for Mother's Bite which I'm pretty sure she can't take anyway, as that's a Lamashtu religion trait and she's an antipaladin of Calistria. Then as for changing her species to a Pitborn Tiefling, that would not work cause I want her as a fanglord lol.
Don't know if it's been mentioned, but an Antipaladin's spells are powered by their Charisma, so you don't need to boost her Wisdom.
Oh crap you are right LOL I forgot about that... wait are you sure? Cause in 3.x they were Wis I thought, that's why paladins were so annoying you needed high stats across the board.
Cool, thanks everyone and as for the reason her Str is 14 and her Dex is 16, that's cause a big part of it is I just am not a fan of full plate, not to mention part of the concept is that she's an antipaladin because that best fits her passions and very evil streak vengeful nature, not cause she wants to be some champion of evil in full plate. She's stealthy and a big roguish in that if you slight her so she's going to decide to kill you, you might not see her coming.
As for the antipaladin being not optimal, that's part of why I wanted the advice on it. I'm not a player that cares about optimal fighting over roleplay. I do however not want a character that will be worthless in combat vs. her peers at higher level. Looks like a lot of what you guys have said tells me that even if it's not optimal for her to be a dex build natural attacks anti-paladin, it works.
Then as for the rest of the stats, as a fanglord she gets +2 Dex, -2 Wis so having her Wis a bit higher to compensate that penalty yet still be viable as an antipaladin is hard then to find the points to have a high Con too. Originally I had her Str lower but then when I realized that if she wasn't able to use Dervish Dance to add dex to damage since she's not using a scimitar, the higher Str for damage would be a good idea
EDIT: Okay, as Rynjin suggested I dropped her Int to 10 and put her Con up to 12. Don't want to drop her Int lower than 10 simply cause I DO want her to have some skills, and with an Int of 10 she's only got 2 (+1 favored class)
Okay, so I've never been fond of the way natural attacks are completely independent of iterative attacks even if all you attempt are your natural attacks.
Sure, at lower levels the catfolk with claws gets two attacks where as the fighter with a sword gets only one. However, at level 20 where the fighter is getting 5 (or more with TWF), the catfolk who wants to use her claws still only gets two attacks.
So, I've always house ruled that claws can be treated as light slashing weapons.
However, many people think this house rule is a bad idea.
So, the reason for this thread is... assuming a campaign is not going to end prior to a certain level, why bother with claws/etc at all? Why not plan for the future when they will become worthless by not taking them in the first place and spending your feats to maximize manufactured weapons?
So, my idea for a character I REALLY want to play as a natural weapons character, she's a Fanglord (weretiger-kin skinwalker) antipaladin of Calistria. Kinda weird for an antipaladin to use natural attacks, but it's a cool idea i think, plus the unorthodox nature would help to illustrate to me why the natural attacks are worth having (or not.)
So far first level I have her stats as follows...
Will need to spend some of her level up stat points to raise her WIS to 14 to get all her spell levels. In the mean time though, her 1st level feat is 'Extra Feature' so that she can shapeshift her bite AND the claws at the same time. Possibly may or may not take it twice more to be able to fully shift all 4 abilities.
So, who out there knows natural weapons enough to help me out with this? Sell me on natural attacks RAW.
But why must they tip? Why does a level 20 character who started her career suddenly have a racial ability that makes her subpar if she uses it past a certain level?
If you just treat them as light slashing weapons as I do, then a level 20 claws fighter with all the TWF feats is exactly the same as a level 20 dagger fighter with all the TWF. If you take Improved Natural Attack, then you are sacrificing a feat to get a better weapon... which the regular weapon fighter just has to pick up a better weapon... So, the normal weapon fighter still has an advantage in that he doesn't have to use a feat to increase his damage die.
It just really says to me that unless you know your campaign isn't going to go past a certain level, you're better off just forgetting you have claws (or in the case of some species that can choose claws like catfolk or dhampir) not having them in the first place and using normal weapons.
NOW, that said... I've recently been looking into it and I am going to try to see if I can make an effective level 20 character that uses natural weapons without feeling like they should just retrain all the natural weapon "crap" and pick up a sword. In fact, I think I will create a new thread to further discuss this, and get some help in a nice level 20 build for a claws based fighter.
While I understand the RAW, I house rule that if a creature does not use manufactured weapons, they can use their iterative attacks progression INSTEAD OF (not in addition to) the standard natural attack rules by essentially treating your claws as light slashing weapons. Just cause otherwise it pretty much makes claws pretty much a throwaway trait to me... if you are a level 20 fighter with a two-handed sword you get 5 attacks but then you can't use your claws... you have claws good for you but you can't use them. But you throw down the sword, you only get two attacks? But then take two daggers and the two-weapon fighting progression and you can get up to 8 dagger attacks, but your claws... still worthless! Might also note that this house rule generally only applies to claws, so no biting people 5 times, if you use my house rule, you can't bite in that round because you are focusing on using just your claws.
TL;DR I house rule that you may treat claws as light slashing weapons because why would anyone want two 1d4 claw attacks when they could get 5 1d4 dagger attacks?
Well yeah but do they make errors in errata, because as far as I can tell, it shouldn't have been changed. A hybrid and animal form has the same stats as the base creature or base animal, whichever is higher and then all forms get a +2 Str and Con. The werewolf follows this, the wereboar does, the werebear does, they all do... except the weretiger because it was changed... inexplicably. So, I am asking why was it changed when the change causes the weretiger to no longer follow the same creation rules as the rest?
Maybe you and I are right, the errata is an error, and if so then it should be changed back, or else I'd really like to know the justification for the weretiger becoming an exception to the rules every other werecreature follows.
So, could you guys please hit the FAQ button for me on the OP? Even if it doesn't end up in the FAQ, at least hopefully we can get a look from a developer to tell us why this change was made, or if it is in fact an errata in the errata!
Right, the werewolf wasn't changed... just the weretiger. But no, it says as I bolded +2 Str/+2 Con in all forms... so I don't see how the intent could be for that to be applied beforehand, since more than likely the animal stats are going to be higher already unless you are playing a min-maxed fighter...
Plus, I just double checked and the werewolf is thus...
Human Con 14
So, the werewolf IS getting that extra +2, but the weretiger does not anymore... which makes it a complete replacement, negating the bonus the other lycanthropes get and that is right there in the RAW.
Cao Phen wrote:
No, because if the non-bladebound magus had the +3 flaming keen bane scimitar, he couldn't add Ghost Touch because he's not got enough points left... he'd exceed the +10 limit... However, the bladebound magus with his +3 black blade could add Ghost Touch and brilliant energy to his black blade. He couldn't however add all the others (and since "bane" is also an arcana, I think I can assume that neither magus has the ability to add bane in his example)
At least, that's what I got from his post... I could be misunderstanding his meaning myself.
Okay, so a lycanthrope has the following rules...
Ability Scores: +2 Wis, –2 Cha in all forms; +2 Str, +2 Con in hybrid and animal forms. Lycanthropes have enhanced senses but are not fully in control of their emotions and animalistic urges. In addition to these adjustments to the base creature's stats, a lycanthrope's ability scores change when he assumes hybrid or animal form. In human form, the lycanthrope's ability scores are unchanged from the base creature's form. In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope's ability scores are the same as the base creature's or the base animal's, whichever ability score is higher.
Here is the Tiger stats...
Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Then here is the errated Weretiger hybrid and animal stats...
Bestiary 2 wrote:
Str 23, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
So, looking at what I bolded there, and since the base lycanthrope rules have not changed, the stats for tigers have not changed... why has the stats for the weretiger changed? As the tiger has a Str of 23 and a Con of 17, that's the base stat... then as it says in the Bestiary you add 2 to them. Hence 25 and 19 were correct the first time...
Why the change? The only way I can see this change making sense is if the +2 Str, +2 Con in hybrid and animal forms. line was completely removed in a Bestiary errata, but to my knowledge it has not been removed.
Well, in the case of Wings of Heaven and Wings of Fire, because you can't. One minute per level. Plus, common sense says they would get in the way, not to mention OMFG that dude has huge bat wings... he's a demon/devil RUN!!!! Yeah, unless you are actually using them, there's no need to keep "On Dark Wings" active other than the fact that you can.
Yes, but forget the feat that didn't exist before since I only mentioned that as to what made me notice this... it's an at-will ability vs. a minute per level ability. Even if you delayed Wings of Fire to 15th level and made it a standard action...
Which, your mention of Wings of Heaven is a good point... That's a discrepancy in the main book (nevermind that Wings of Heaven has no indication of the type of action it is to activate.) Looking at it from a purely game mechanic standpoint, why would I want Wings of Heaven over On Dark Wings at 20th level? Standard vs. Swift? That's in no way worth the difference between a 24 hour ability vs. a one minute per level ability... maybe if Fire/Heaven were one HOUR per level it would seem more worth it at 20th level...
Okay, I am sure there are other examples, but this is one I just noticed and inspired this thread.
I am redesigning an old character of mine who has infernal ties. So, I am going with a flame oracle, but I also was thinking of taking the Eldritch Heritage feat with Infernal.
So, that's when I noticed...
Infernal sorcerer gets...
Infernal Bloodline wrote:
and the Flame oracle gets...
Flame Mystery wrote:
Now, other than On Dark Wings being granted at 15th level and Wings of Fire being at chosen at minimum 7th level, On Dark Wings is CLEARLY superior due to having no use limit like Wings of Fire.
So, why the discrepancy? Is it just the level difference when you get it, or is there other factors at work? Is it just a case of two difference designers designing each power and the oracle's designer not keeping it equal to previous abilities?
Also, the difference between a swift action and a standard action to activate is only nominally relevant, you could easily change Wings of Fire to a standard action and then it would be exactly the same, but would that be wrong to do from a game balance standpoint?
Sometimes things come up and you have to miss a game... "I dont feel like it" isn't a valid reason to me... but "My boss told me I have to work tonight" is... so is "My sister is in town for only two days" and other various things. Actually being SICK (not just a general "i dont feel like it") is also a valid reason. But, all of these are potential things that could come up hours before the game and break your contract. So, yeah nobody I play with would sign such a contract, not even those who are less understanding about missed games are THAT much not understanding.
But what defines evil? There are grades of evil. Applying alignment to real life persons is kind of hard, but for analogy sake...
Is someone who pirates software evil? Possibly could be considered so by some people. Is a serial rapist-killer evil? Most definitely.
So, if you were doing a modern-day game and a selfish person that didn't care about anyone but themselves who regularly downloaded illegal movies and games but never physically harmed anyone... they must die, as they are neutral evil?
That even said, I've know people that I would have to unequivocally say would be Lawful Evil without any doubt that were much nicer than many who would deem themselves Lawful Good. Then again, there is doubt as this person would only be Lawful Evil by modern morality... very "Live and let live" attitude, cared only about himself most of the time, yes but does that make him evil, or is he only evil because he strays from the accepted morals of modern religion?
Went to the actual Facebook page and found the old comment thread, and later he commented this...
Jason Bulmahn, Game Designer wrote:
...it was a joke and mostly for fun. We changed the rule for game balance reasons, not based off my experimentation. Besides, if I only based rulings off my actual skill sets, the only things characters could do in the game would be design buildings, write game rules, and drink beer.
So, with THAT, I'm mostly okay with it as it doesn't (yet) set a precedent of silly rulings. :P
reika michiko wrote:
There is a thing called constructive criticism. If you had explained the problems you had with your example and then asked for alternatives, or even said why was this design decision made, that's constructive.
However, when you start the thread with "What was Paizo thinking" say you "hate them with a passion" and other such very hostile things... that says one thing to Paizo staff (and any company really)
This is a very hostile and rude person that we should ignore.
You make very valid points, but they are tainted by your hostile attitude and insults to the staff themselves.
If you want to go nuts, check out the variant tiefling tables. The tieflings can be hermaphroditic. THat can always make weirdness.
Yeah, I have a tiefling like that in my current campaign, although nobody knows yet. They think she's just a normal human woman, and with her being an oathbound paladin with oath of corruption, oath of charity, and oath of chastity, odds are they probably won't find out any time soon.
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Ever read Terry Brooks' Shannara series? Essentially it was our world (although he's recently written novels to bridge his Sci-Fi world so it's not quite our world, with Shannara) but the "Last Great War of Man" (pretty much always sounded like World War III to me) basically destroyed the world. Humans survived, but the elves and dwarves and all such races that were in hiding came back. In that setting humans aren't dominant, they are mostly equal with everyone until the second trilogy where the elves retreat again.
Yeah... I am trying to remember where I saw someone say that vampires no longer do DRAIN but I can't find it (i even googled "pathfinder vampire blood drain" and all I found was discussion that they have it, not how it works except the confusing to me RAW)... and it looks like the Nosferatu does... so kind of confusing...
Ha, yeah I almost didn't want to post, but there was no discussion or anything just a simple "Yes" and I was like "Wait, what?" so I felt I just had to clarify because the 3.x rules it was humanoids and fey only (and you could only turn your own race or some such weird rule)
Okay, so I looked for this and I couldn't find it...
The base vampire says...
A vampire can suck blood from a grappled opponent; if the vampire establishes or maintains a pin, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage. The vampire heals 5 hit points or gains 5 temporary hit points for 1 hour (up to a maximum number of temporary hit points equal to its full normal hit points) each round it drains blood.
Then the Nosferatu entry says...
Bestiary 4 wrote:
A nosferatu can suck blood from a helpless, willing, or grappled living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, draining 1d4 points of Constitution and Wisdom each round the pin is maintained. On each round it drains blood, the nosferatu gains 5 temporary hit points that last for 1 hour (up to a maximum number of temporary hit points equal to its full normal hit points).
So, am I reading this right that the normal vampire (Moroi, to use the Blood of Night term) only does ability damage, but the Nosferatu does ability drain?