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8 Red Wizards's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 404 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Pathfinder Society character.


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I don't understand the wording between the ability of the Celebrity bard called Shining Star. Can you use the Fascinate ability in the middle of combat with the Shining Star ability to fascinate a target without it breaking or can you only Fascinate the target before combat starts and he just has to make a harder save to break the fascinate while combat is underway?

I'm thinking about playing one if the Fascinate ability can work in the middle of combat such as 4 rounds into the fight I attempt to fascinate some enemies.


I know the person in question isn't talking about alternate racial traits, because he made it clear he wasn't. I let him know he'd have to pay me or make those alternate racial traits better to be worth taking it as a human.


Yea I didn't think so just seeing if anyone else knew of anything else besides those 2 things


The only main source of traits I know of are in the Advanced Player's guide and the campaign books that require you to be a certain race, but I'm hearing those aren't racial traits. Also the person I am talking about doesn't mean the Races actual abilities.


I'm sure this was said since there are 11 pages of replies and I didn't read them all, but you can't get Rapid Shot and Manyshot in the same round since they both require a full round action to perform.

4 shots + Rapid shot or Manyshot which is 1 + haste 1 more attack so I'm seeing 6 attacks instead of 7

Nicos wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
If realism is the concern, just fluff the attack as a single bullet...
It woudl be good if the mechanics actually reflect that fluff. And it actually have mechanical implications, like the numbers of AoO provoked.

It does you get one AoO per opportunity firing into combat when threatened by melee is one Opportunity so the next 5 attacks would not provoke from you since you took the opportunity to swing on the first shot.


I would take a level of fighter if I really wanted Heavy Armor Pro over wasting a feat on it. It will never help enough.


Hugo Rune wrote:

I suspect the OP would you have played with stats of 15, 15, 15, 14, 12, 12; regardless of who rolled them.

That would have granted him an additional +1 on every die roll. It's such a shame that the player's enjoyment of roleplaying is dictated by having good rolls. I wonder what would of happened had he rolled 1 a couple of times in a tense encounter or failed to perceive a trap. probably thrown a similar strop about how the encounter is unbalanced and the GM is being a killer.

Still fair play to him for walking out straight away and saving the GM the headache of having a difficult player at the table. I imagine he went home to play on a computer game instead and gave himself the infinite health cheat to make the game fairer.

Rolling 1's on encounters happen an are recoverable and as are the suggested traps.

Yes I would of played those stats. I would of played the posted stats if one of them were at least a 16 so I could be good at my class.

Peter Stewart wrote:

I don't think your reaction was particularly mature, but if you were truly that frustrated and upset leaving was probably the best option. Years ago as a teenager I was that guy at a table with the worst scores by far (higher score 13, next highest 10, most under 10), and I didn't particularly enjoy it. Had I walked away I would have likely saved myself some frustration.

Generally speaking my first inclination is to talk it out with the GM. "Hey, I've got an issue, will you hear me out." At the same time, you are there to have fun. If you aren't having fun why are you there?

To those complaining about the OP's unhappiness with those stats - there were people at the table who literally had single scores worth more than all of his put together. That's a pretty big difference. In the old days perhaps you could make that work (I don't know), but it's fairly difficult in modern PF (especially with such a small party and at low levels) to have a nitch to fit into when you are that far behind. I'm not saying everyone at the table needs to be exactly the same, but large differences breed frustration.

My larger issue is that a single 18 (which he describes everyone has having) is worth more than his entire array - rather than that his given array is unplayable on its face.

yet again I explained with those stats you can't even be good at your class, and using those stats would be a struggle in any encounter. I do believe using the Young template would be just as bad as playing them just so you can warp all your other stats down to 9 just to have one really high stat.

Someone mentioned the average guy attempted at a table. I've seen someone try that before and it looked awful since he couldn't do anything except try his best and make the encounters harder on everyone else. He died in a few sessions and no one was to broken up about it, and I don't even think the player was to upset about it.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
DrDeth wrote:

Except that no matter how fair the rolling system is, if there is a huge disparity between PC, then that is unfair and unbalancing. Even tho I could play and have fun with those stats, if another PC had what amounted to a 30 pt buy, my character would be too outclassed.

And I don’t see where he had a choice of rolling vs Pt buy.

Deth, that is the acknowledged and INTENDED CONSEQUENCE of ROLLING STATS instead of using a point buy.

If a player is unwilling to play in a game with characters that are not equal, then they should not agree to rolling stats.

If you AGREE TO IT, then you should live up to it.

This whole thread has nothing whatsoever to do with gaming. It has everything to do with sticking to your word and accepting consequences of your actions.

And I'm done with it.

When you are invited to a game you go on the basis to play and have fun there is no word given that you will play just because stats are rolled. So he wouldn't give a second set when i gave my opinion. So in my right i left. it's either stay and be upset by the gap or leave and do something else.

DrDeth wrote:

Did the player have a choice? I mean if it was “roll or don’t play” then that’s not a choice. In any case, the results were unfair and unbalancing.

Nothing to do with “sticking to your word and accepting consequences of your actions”. Not his actions, anyway.

Etats were rolled infront of me i just didn't like them. Every group i've been in lets you roll 3 sets and pick a set. So i wasn't happy with my one set and dm didn't get that so i left.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Different issues here should be dealt with differently.

If you are not OK with the GM rolling your stats, then you should tell the GM that you don't play that way and politely wish him good luck with his game.

If you are not OK with the GM rolling your stats, but you go along with it, then you should accept what you get and play them if they are playable. These are playable stats. Not great, but not bad.

If you had rolled these stats yourself and the GM said you had to accept them, would you also have walked out?

You made your bed, and then refused to lay in it.

I did try to convince the DM to let me have another set before I left and those stats aren't playable for a melee or a caster low to hit or low save DC's. Like I said before that would of been a waste of a character sheet.

I've never rolled so horribly so I'm not I always pop out at least 1 stat over 16 sometimes 2 stats. Although those stats were not playable. +3 to hit as a melee tops and that's with weapon focus) or a spell caster with DC 12's for my level 1 spells. If you can't play those stats and be a helpful memeber of a party. As a spellcaster you'd probably never see 5th level spells everything would make it's save. As a melee you would never hit and it would only get worse as the monsters get higher level.


He rolled everyones stats 1 roll, if I had atleast got a 16 or higher out of it I would played it but those stats would of been a waste of character sheet.

The dm invited me so i'm assuming he wanted me to play.


10, 13, 13, 12, 13, 10

DM said he rolls the players stats, and I said ok "in my mind that put up a red flag." DM said you get one set and that everyone else got one set, and I said ok and he rolled the above so I got up and made it to the door before he asked where are you going and I told him I'm not playing those they are less than a 20 point buy in. I asked him if I could reroll, because I didn't want to waste a character sheet on those stats and he said no because no one else did so I left.

I would like to add the lowest stat on the other 2 player's character sheets was 12 and going up to 18.


Kiinyan wrote:
8 Red Wizards wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
TGMaxMaxer wrote:

Yes, Eidolons are broken. No, most of the things that people use to break them are not legal. Yes, you get 4 attacks at full attack bonus at 4th level. It's that sick.

Yes, an eidolon can get 4 attacks at level 4. He will still have a lower DPR than a berserker with a decent weapon. Toss in DR 5 and he'll be lucky to inflict an average of more than 1-2 damage per hit.

At level 4 an eidolon's claws will be hitting for 1d6+3, with the improved damage and strength evolutions. To-hit Bonus will be +7 with weapon focus.

A Barbarian could be swinging for 2d6+13 with a +13 to-hit bonus (weapon focus + masterwork greatsword).

Eidolon: .55(6.5) + .05(.55)(6.5) = 3.75375 * 4 = 15.015

Barbarian: .85(20) + .1(.85)(20) = 18.7

I don't really believe that Synthesist are broken.

In a current game I'm running I have both a barbarian and a summoner, so I'm going to show their fifth level builds over their fourth level. I'm also going to use his old eidolon build before we decided it was ridiculous.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

While the barbarian has a better to hit and single hit damage, the eidolon/summoner is a lot more versatile, especially in skills and...

I do have to say at least your player didn't try to break his eidolon.


Artanthos wrote:
TGMaxMaxer wrote:

Yes, Eidolons are broken. No, most of the things that people use to break them are not legal. Yes, you get 4 attacks at full attack bonus at 4th level. It's that sick.

Yes, an eidolon can get 4 attacks at level 4. He will still have a lower DPR than a berserker with a decent weapon. Toss in DR 5 and he'll be lucky to inflict an average of more than 1-2 damage per hit.

At level 4 an eidolon's claws will be hitting for 1d6+3, with the improved damage and strength evolutions. To-hit Bonus will be +7 with weapon focus.

A Barbarian could be swinging for 2d6+13 with a +13 to-hit bonus (weapon focus + masterwork greatsword).

Eidolon: .55(6.5) + .05(.55)(6.5) = 3.75375 * 4 = 15.015

Barbarian: .85(20) + .1(.85)(20) = 18.7

I don't really believe that Synthesist are broken.


Serum wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

No.

The core rules assume that you're a humanoid creature and you only have two "limbs" to attack with each round if you're using the "fighting with two weapons" option. It doesn't matter if you're making a headbutt and a punch, or a kick and a punch, or 2 kicks, or 2 punches, you're just making two attacks per round. At no time would you ever be able to justify a BAB +0 creature with no natural weapons making 2 punches AND 2 kicks per round

-SKR

Quote:
The intent was to prevent you from making a full attack sequence with your natural attacks and a bunch of unarmed strikes by specifically defining your undefined unarmed strikes as conveniently different limbs than your natural attacks. Which is exactly what you're trying to do.
In this case, we have an eidolon with 4 claw attacks on 4 different limbs. There is no mixing between natural attacks and iterative attacks, which is what SKR is talking about there. The number of natural attacks that an eidolon is allowed to use is specifically based on his level and the number of attacks he owns.

To Big Norse: Well a Synthesist can make 3 attacks with a BAB of 1 at level 1 and 4 attacks with a BAB of 3 so you need to accept that.

I'm only talking about Natural attacks which have nothing to do with the iterative attacks from Base Attack Bonus. I would like to assume for this thread people know you don't get all natural attacks and bab attacks just 1 set or the other.

Such as level 1 Eidolons get 3 attacks and level 4 they get 4 attacks. So I'm still asking if a Biped Eidolon has Claws on hands and feet and they have 3 could they get 2 from the claws and on hands and 1 from the foot. Nothing says they Eidolon can't have more than the number of natural attacks they just can't use them all such as they could have a bite, 4 claws and a tail. They might not be able to use all those attacks, but they have choices on which one they want to use.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

No.

The core rules assume that you're a humanoid creature and you only have two "limbs" to attack with each round if you're using the "fighting with two weapons" option. It doesn't matter if you're making a headbutt and a punch, or a kick and a punch, or 2 kicks, or 2 punches, you're just making two attacks per round. At no time would you ever be able to justify a BAB +0 creature with no natural weapons making 2 punches AND 2 kicks per round

-SKR

This isn't a TWF thing, and the natural attacks of a Synthesist isn't up to the Synthesists BAB. So I really don't think that covers the Biped Synthesist since they get there natural attacks about every 3 or 4 levels. That looks like it would explain something if a monk tried to flurry with his claws.


I can't believe I haven't gotten any attention to this or everyone is digging through there books to find out. So far I don't think it's against the rules, but I was wondering?


So far I only read the first page, but I don't see a problem with him being a kitsune. I also don't think his desire to want to play a Kitsune is reducing everyones fun in the game. I was kinda hoping the DM would offer some sort of good reason why a Kitsune wasn't a ok pick for his race. As a DM I would never use the phrase "Because I'm the DM and I said so about someones character view" if you can't form a good reason than there is something wrong with you about it.


If you put Claws on a Biped Eidolons feet and they have claws on there hands also and can get 4 natural attacks could the Eidolon get all 4 claw attacks?


I didn't read all of the posts because some of there were just repeats and some were just boring to me, but the DM has no control over your character or changing your class features. He can change the world, NPCs and give you things, but he can NEVER CHANGE YOUR CHARACTER. No where in the sorcerer is a code of conduct to keep your powers you aren't a paladin a bloodline doesn't mean the forces of good are watching you it just means you have some celestial blood and that's how you got your powers.

Although if the DM did decide to change my bloodline of my sorcerer I would tell him no, and if that didn't work I'd either stop playing that game or make a new character at that moment. Although I would probably stop playing that game.


The Fox wrote:
Summary: you all want to play an all-wizard party. I don't want you to, but instead of just saying that, I am going to jerk you over at every opportunity I can formulate.

WHAT!!! Sounds more like the player's were idiots they all wanted to be wizards and couldn't handle any of the situations. The DM made a balanced game with a moment for each of the classes to shine, but when it came time for the wizards to shine they ALL tried to control the battlefield and almost no one killed anything, because it seems so many "Wizard" Player's are of the opinion they don't need a damaging spell because someone else will kill it.


My character is a Half-Fiend Human Red Wizard of Thay (we still use LA, because we don't see a problem with it in our group. It lets people play powerful races when others don't want to. Although you can buy off your LA.) Which I've bought off my LA.

I picked the boarder kingdoms because East to South East is the The Shaar a land of barbarians and other barbaric races there are some gold Dwarves far away, but Calimshan is close by but non of the major cities are near you. Also the Lake of Steam is a good secondary spot to go after second.

I'm trying to get friendly with Calimshan at the moment also.

My shops are run by NPCs with Simulacrum oversight, because 1 character does not have the ability to plan world domination, direct evil forces and deal with over 50 full time jobs. I've set a ranking system from my player's so they can enjoy some of the domination and promised them oversights to territories under my leadership.

Epic Leadership and Legendary Commander came from Epic handbook, and Extra Followers came from Heroes of Battle which are 3.X feats.

I use DMG 2 rules to run my business, and since my character is never really present I lose some money. Although I make enough to sleep well at night. My Caravan business is done through teleportation which is almost an unknown to anyone.


I think the Sword Coast is a bad place to start. I have an Envoker Red Wizard of Thay who has decided to try to take over the world, but I placed myself in the Border Kingdoms. I've made myself a caravan master (Teleportation Circle) and expand General item shops across over 50 towns across from The Heartlands and the border kingdoms. I use all of those shops and caravans for spying and funding. My point is don't start trouble with the big kids until you get your fingers dirty with some of the little-fish.

I use Simulacrums, Golems and Leadership feats for an army, and I've recruited PC's with various assassination skills that will eventually cause problems if they want to earn there fees. I will always use diplomatic means to avoid a fight to claim something, because sometimes an open hand is faster than a sword. (Although I am also using Leadership, Extra Followers, Epic Leadership and going to take Legendary Commander Feat) so I have access to feats your DM might not let you use.

Also since there are so many of you make multiple staging grounds so you always have something going on until you are ready to take something as yours. I've placed footing in about of 3rd of the realms, and placed Simulacrums with a permanent telepathic bond between groups of 10 to keep in contact so I can keep ever updated. It is the perfect spy network.

Making allies with Luskan could be iffy since they will be one of your most difficult challenges to overcome.

Edit: Forgot to mention I wouldn't minding hearing some of your ideas in exchange for some of my deeper thoughts on what I'm playing on doing.


My favorite and most powerful "destructive" character is an Evocation Red Wizard, although in most cases I soften them up and let my Warrior companion knock'em out. Even though I'm an Envoker I do pick some other types of spells to control the battlefield. I do blow a lot of things up and it's a lot more fun throwing fireballs around atleast more than most of the other wizard jobs.


Thalin wrote:
Regular have the most powerful Eidilon (they can take extra evolution, which synth doesn't qualify for) and gets 2 actions per round (buff and attack). They can also make any eidolon pounce a la maker's call.

Actually SKR ruled said last year that Synthesist Summoners can use Extra Evolution feat based on the fact that the Fused Eidolon words "In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability" So the Synthesist can use Extra Evolution Feat.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
JonGarrett wrote:

I don't see why not. I had a Paladin who made a deal with a devil - she didn't know it was a devil, however. All she knew was that it was a nasty old spellcaster who registered as Neutral. But she signed in blood on the contract, to the terms, "Assistance in saving the one you love, for the most precious thing you own in one years time."

Needless to say, in a years time when the the guy got on one knee and said, 'My heart is yours, will you wed me?' bad things happened...

Red Flag the moment he said Sign in Blood, because that's never a good sign.


If I was going to make a monk or a ranger these would be my starting stats for each. I would like us to agree that these stats are acceptable before we move to another area.

My Human Monk Stats
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 17 (+2) racial in there
Cha 7
Stat Increases
Level 4 - +1 Wis
Level 8 - +1 Str
Level 12 - +1 Str
Level 16 - +1 Str
Level 20 - +1 Str

I didn't dump my Intel because I hate having Negative Int mods, and I dumped my Cha because Monks just don't need it

My Human Ranger Stats
Str 17 (+2) racial in there
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 10
Stat Increases
Level 4 - +1 Str
Level 8 - +1 Con
Level 12 - +1 Str
Level 16 - +1 Str
Level 20 - +1 Str

I didn't dump my Intel because I hate having a Negative Int mod although I didn't pump up my Int Mod because Rangers get 6 skill points per level. I didn't pump my str up to 16 before mods because point wise it's uneconomical when you are going to get a point increase in 4 levels and you can put the points into a more needed area. Some of you are wondering why I didn't dump my Cha because you still need it for Handle animal and for your animal companion. Animal Companions are not robots, and sometimes the DM might have your companion get jumpy or a little wild around somethings so a negative Cha would not be help.

P.S. If you think these stats should be a different way tell me because I'm going to be reposting this stats over and over for further bases, and who knows maybe these stats could eventually tell me that the ranger is not equal to the monk but better.


A monk dex is 14 wis 20 by lvl 8
A ranger dex is 14 by lvl 8

Monk ac is +7
Ranger ac bonus is +2 if you put medium armor which is atleast +5 thats 7 armor bonus total
Than you can start adding in magical bonus's and they stay tied in Ac bonus until the monk turns lvl 10 or gets a stat boosting item than the monk takes over in AC and the ranger loses at lvl 8. So far not enough to say monk is better but enough to say equal.

Ranger gets d10 vs monk d8 which is a matter of 1 hit poimt per lvl depending on how you roll. I don't consider 1 hp to be a breaking point maybe I am wrong. Still not enough to say ranger is better.

When did rangers get a +1 to hit for moving, and yes rangers get +2 more skill points so let them be a skill monkey. Altnought until someone shows me how a rangef gets +1 att for moving than I've proven my case 3 or 4 times over that rangers and monks are equal. Also not a reason to say rangers are better melee than monks


See MrSin everyone keeps going back to Ranger archer, because I've obviously proven the Monk is Equal to the Two Weapon fighting monk. So I compare it to the Zen Archer which can get a cheap magical item to do Gravity Bow and than come out ahead.

SRD wrote:


Manyshot

You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.

Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.

Atarlost you should reread manyshot as a Full-Attack your first attack lets you fire 2 arrows and than you get your third shot. Even with manyshot you are still only getting 3 shots you can't use Manyshot and Rapid Shot in the same round. While a Zen Archer can spend 1 ki point to get his unarmed damage as his arrow damage and he can still get multiple crits and if he keens his bow he gets 19-20 x2 crit. Gravity Bow is nice, but Zen archer is still a little stronger because of perfect strike. "WHAT'S THIS I ROLLED 2 DICE AND ONE OF THEM ROLLED A 1 I'M NOT USING THAT AS MY ATTACK ROLL OR WHAT'S THIS I ROLLED 2 DICE AND ONE OF THEM ROLLED A 20 YEA BABY CRITS. Kinda like the Zen archer better than the ranger at the moment


Only fighters get a bonus to CMD/CMB and that's to Disarm and also Sunder, and I already know a monk can't beat a fighter.

Smite evil is situational and oath of vengeance lets you do it afew more times a day which is a good deal, but it still doesn't change when and how it can be used and depend what you are fighting against. Unarmed Dice work against everything. Although if you are able to Smite evil on something that is actually evil you will kick it's ass.

Favored Enemy and Instant Enemy that still requires you to make the proper knowledge check to determine the type of monster you are fighting, because you can't just say my favored enemy is that monster or pick a monster that looks like it.

Mrsin wrote:
You are picking an archetype to compare archer to archer. Zen archer and MoMS are two archetypes that people actually like and I don't see picked on for being underpowered that often. At worst they just don't hit super hard. I have said nothing against either of these archetypes.

I bring up the archer because the Ranger archer has been brought up several times by others so I need to use Zen archer to compare it to.


MrSin wrote:

Monks don't get full BAB. They get twf with full BAB and the -2 penalty, and they're so mad and they don't really get skills that up the damage of that almost full BAB they get. They also don't get the best CMD/CMB becuase they don't get bonuses to those, just access to the feats everyone else can get anyway. They don't get boost to CMD/CMB, damage, or BAB really... Thats probably part of the problem.

Also, masterwork weapon won't stack with AoMF even if you could use it on your fist. Masterwork fist sounds awesome though...

at level 3 monks use there monk level as there BAB to CMB (which means they do get the best CMB) while they don't get this bonus to CMD but it's a close second, Once again monks Unarmed dice go up. MrSin you keep bringing up the samethings at this point I don't even think you are reading the thread or have even read the monk class before. So far I've continued to show the monk is equal to the ranger as a melee combatant. If we put the Zen archer next to the archery ranger I'm pretty sure they would be equal and the Zen Archer might even be a little bit better because of Perfect Strike, Ki Arrows, Trick Shot even there other ranged abilities are better than the ranger. If Ranger didn't have Favored Enemy that class would suck.


8 Red Wizards wrote:

When a monk does Flurry of Blows they are treated as having a full BAB for all of there Flurry of Blows attacks. The only time a monk uses a 3/4 BAB is when they can not make a Flurry of Blows such as when they charge.

I can't figure out how no one recognizes the monk does have access to a Full BAB when they are using unarmed or a monk weapon in a Flurry.

A level 8 Monk and a level 8 Two Weapon Ranger have the same to hit bonus, and the same number of attacks and probably the same strength score to if I made a monk or a ranger my str would be 14 either way.

Monk
Flurry of Blows for a monk = +6 bab +2 str +2 amulet (which I don't believe it's a stretch to say a monk would have a +2 amulet at this level)

Ranger
Ranger Full Attack = +6 (since he's using 2 weapons it's not a +8) +2 str +2 weapons

they both equal +10 to hit, they both have 4 attacks

First I want everyone on the boards to admit the monk does get a Full BAB when the monk makes a Full attack action with a Flurry. The only time the monk gets 3/4 BAB is when they have to make a charge attack.

even an Archery range would still have an attack bonus of +10 same as the monk if he used Rapid Shot since Rapid Shot still gives the archer a -2 to all attacks. So far the Monk still scales to the Ranger attacks no matter what weapon he uses. A Monk using flurry of blows gets 4 attacks at level 8 and a Two weapon fighting Ranger gets 4 attacks at level 8, although an Archery ranger gets 3 attacks with rapid shot and has lower damage than the monk does.

Level 8 monk would have +10, +10, +5, +5 to hit and 4 attacks
Level 8 Two weapon Ranger would have +10, +10, +5, +5 and 4 attacks
Level 8 Archery Ranger would have +10, +10, +5 and 3 attacks

Two Weapon Rangers are doing less damage than tne monk because there damage increase as they level, and like the monk don't have very high base bonus to damage.
Archery Rangers are still doing less damage than the monk. There advantage is they aren't in melee combat

Damage and attack wise
Monk = Two Weapon Ranger
Monk > Archery Ranger

P.S. Not getting an enhancement bonus to movement from haste is barely a price to pay for there FULL TIME Fast Movement. I can live with that, and I would hope anyone else could to.


When a monk does Flurry of Blows they are treated as having a full BAB for all of there Flurry of Blows attacks. The only time a monk uses a 3/4 BAB is when they can not make a Flurry of Blows such as when they charge.

I can't figure out how no one recognizes the monk does have access to a Full BAB when they are using unarmed or a monk weapon in a Flurry.

A level 8 Monk and a level 8 Two Weapon Ranger have the same to hit bonus, and the same number of attacks and probably the same strength score to if I made a monk or a ranger my str would be 14 either way.

Monk
Flurry of Blows for a monk = +6 bab +2 str +2 amulet (which I don't believe it's a stretch to say a monk would have a +2 amulet at this level)

Ranger
Ranger Full Attack = +6 (since he's using 2 weapons it's not a +8) +2 str +2 weapons

they both equal +10 to hit, they both have 4 attacks

First I want everyone on the boards to admit the monk does get a Full BAB when the monk makes a Full attack action with a Flurry. The only time the monk gets 3/4 BAB is when they have to make a charge attack.


wraithstrike wrote:
Dabbler every time one of us presents the "show us how" challenge nobody takes the offer up. Don't hold your breath.

So far I've never seen anyone who says monks suck put up a character either, but I've seen them put up some random numbers with no backing. If you put up a character I'll put one up otherwise I don't feel like I need to. I know monks don't suck and I'm positive you have to be doing something wrong. If you do want me to put up a character than you make a level 8 character and I'll do one.


Bearded Ben wrote:
Grappling may or may not shut down natural attacks, depending on your GM's ruling on the "handedness" of natural attacks.

The only attack that would probably work would be a bite, but they would take a -2 to that attack and if they use weapon finesse than they take a -4 to dex so that's another -2 for a total of -4.


Continuous effects don't stop working just because someone can't see them. Sleight of hand is used to sneak in small objects and you could still use say a dagger and than hide it again after use, but that is different from an amulet. Continuous effect item only stop working when they aren't being worn it never shuts off. When you enter a combat situation every ones items aren't in the open for everyone to see at this point you are now grasping at straws.

Now what you could do is ask your DM do I see anything around his neck and the DM would probably have you roll a perception check, but you would have to go through the opponents shirt first.

Ranger is going to have a problem in that fight if the monk disarms the ranger right away and hopes he doesn't keep pulling weapons or pick one of them back up. The monk can win if he succeeds in disarming that ranger and maybe even trip him a few times.

-----

Although a monk trying to disarm a fighter well depending on the archtype probably I haven't looked because I believe some fighters get bonus against Disarm fighter will look at monk like he's crazy and just beat him like a red headed step child.


You can't attack something you don't see which means if the amulet is covered up you can't attack it because you can't see it. So you don't know it's there you can't say I'm going to attack his amulet because I think he has one.

If a spellcaster has a melee in there face than someone did something wrong because that's not suppose to happen, and I'm sure that melee isn't going to be trying to disarm the spellcaster just beating him senseless. Also if you Grapple a monster and you are winning than good for you that monster can't attack or bite until he breaks grapple, but you can do your unarmed damage to that monster while you maintain grapple and everyone else can hit that monster and you will not risk being hit while they are swinging.


if the item is hidden you can't sunder or steal it so if it's under his shirt or robe it's hidden. Which than becomes the GM's call and I'm pretty positive any GM in his right mind is going to call under his shirt hidden to avoid having the same situation put back into his face when a party wants to perform the same task.


Monks don't need Double Slice they get full strength on all there flurry of blows, and monks don't need Quick Draw assuming they are using there fists which makes them worthless feats compared to the monk. I agree that Two Weapon Rend is an awesome feat since it's free damage.

All of these feats are still better than 2 Weapon Rend
Improved Grapple, grappling and doing monk damage at the sametime
Improved Disarm, this one feat kills a two weapon ranger unless he's wearing lock gauntlets, because I would provoke to cut your cord just to kill you.
Improved Trip, Trip there goes your turn and provoke when you get up

Those 3 feats are easily better than Two Weapon Rend if you don't have a weapon in your hand or you are on your back. That feat is no good if you can't swing with both weapons.


Rynjin wrote:

But none of the Monk's Feats are nearly as USEFUL as the Ranger's Combat Style Feats.

Every TWF-er NEEDS Improved/Greater TWF, Rend, Double Slice, etc. Just like every Archer NEEDS Point Blank/Precise/Rapid Shot.

Most of the Monk Bonus Feats are really pretty unnecessary (though nice to have on occasion), are only wanted for ONE specific kind of build (Combat Maneuvers) or just plain suck.

Also don't forget the added ones from later books, Archery has 14 Feats now.

So...

Improved Trip
Improved Disarm
all of the Style feats and there extra feats
Improved Grapple

and if you want to compare the two weapon ranger to a monk than a monk already gets...Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting when he flurry of blows which leaves the two weapon ranger left over with...
Double Slice (Monks can do this anyway they don't even need this feat)
Improved Shield Bash
Quick Draw
Two Weapon Defense
Two Weapon Rend (well this one is good here's one I'd pick to say better because it's free damage, but the rest are junk)
and none of these are even remotely better than the feats I've list for the monk and the feats I was to lazy to list for the monk in Ultimate combat and ultimate magic.

Edit: ok Archery has 14 feats by the end of ultimate combat and ultimate magic Monks are either over or near 70 feats to pick from.

Edit 2: As a monk I might even consider getting a Dex of 17 which would be really easy to do just to get Two Weapon Rend eventually.


Ninja in the Rye
I never liked lock gauntlets because it takes out that hand from being useful so I hope you are always picking the weapon cord of course until it gets easily sundered. My bad guys aren't afraid to provoke an attack of opportunity every now and than just to hamper my PC's when they are disarm blocking me.

I say I like weapon cords because you just have to hit those to sunder them. I think they have 0 hardness and 1 hp. Atleast Lock Gauntlets can take a hit, but they stop you from grabbing something if you have a second weapon or a shield or funniest thing was one of my players wear two lock gauntlets and made a dash for an evil artifact that he couldn't grab.


Monks Stunning Fist DC is 19 so all of these monsters and more that I didn't list have a good chance to fail that save and it's not really costing you an action to perform a stunning fist so what the heck why not give it a try.

Here's a few that I found I found a lot more that had less than 10 but I got kind of carried away with the feat selection showing that monks have a better picks I didn't want to get carried away here to.

Inevitable, Zelekhut +10
Guecubu +8
Leukodaemon +9
Nuckelavee +9
Yithian +9

If I need to put up some more I can

here are some CR 10's
Couatl +9
Tophet +4
Guardian Naga +9


Ranger at level 2 he can pick either Archery or Combat

Archery level 2, 6, 10, 14, 18
Far shot
Point Blank shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Pinpoint Targeting
Shot on the Run

Two Weapon fighting level 2, 6, 10, 14, 18
Double Slice
Improved Shield Bash
Quick Draw
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Rend

Archery 6 choices
Combat 8 choices
Crossbow 8 choices
Mounted Combat 7 choices
Natural Weapon 8 choices
Two Handed Weapon 8 choices
Weapon and Shield 8 choices
But remember you pick a path and than you are restricted to those 6-8 Choices of feats in those paths. I only went through the Corebook and Advanced to save time.

Monk
Catch Off Guard
Combat Reflexes
Deflect Arrows
Dodge
Improved Grapple
Scorpin Style
Throw Anything
Gorgon's Fist
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Disarm
Improved Feint
Improved Trip
Mobility
Improved Critical
Medusa's Wrath
Snatch Arrows
Spring Attack
Monks don't have to pick a path they can pick out of these 17 feats from the corebook and than if you pop open the advance player's guide they get another 15+ feats from style and maneuvers Monks feat choices easily break 50-60 feats if you add in the ultimate combat and magic

While even if you add in ultimate combat or magic into a ranger in the end they will always be down to 6-8 feats once they pick there path.

It's an easy win for monks in feats


Level 8 human monk with wisdom of 20 DC 19

Outside of Dragons and Undead than MOST not all of the CR 7-8 monsters look stunable, although Elementals are immune to stun it doesn't say they are immune to fatigue or stagger condition. Where as Golems specifically say they are immune to fatigue.


Monks gain 2 more feats than the ranger does and has a much much wider selection than the ranger does so I would hardly call that a wash.

Ranger gets to pick between 2 feats every time he gets a feat. While a monk has style, maneuver and combat choices for feats it's a pretty extended list of feats for a monk. I'd call that a win for a monk.


If the ranger was or wasn't an archer the Monk would still have a higher touch AC.

If the guy the monk wants to swing at isn't in melee range he's going to do the samething a fighter will do run up and swing.

Than you aren't using your stunning fist correctly as you go up in levels it stuns, fatigues or staggers. At around level 15 you can make someone permanently blind. How do you not get to much mileage out of that. I hate it when my monk player starts staggering people. Atleast if he'd blind the people I wouldn't have to keep track of there timers and they could still perform a lot more actions.


Mr. Sin I am comparing an 8th level human fighter to an 8th level human monk which would start with at level 1 wisdom of 16 which is 10pts +2 to wisdom because he's humans and +2 additional because he gets a stat boost at level 4 and 8.

What Monk Maneuvers use intellect? If I was playing a monk I'd dump chr into the ground it has no value to a monk. Same way as Chr has no value to Barbarian, Druid, Fighter, Ranger and a Wizard. The Chr score is the first score to go because it is the least useful score out of the 6 and the easiest score to overcome in skill checks.

I also believe that alot of people are upset that when a DM is running a game that none of the BBG's are ever wearing an amulet of mighty fists or a monks robe, but they are always carrying around a +1 or +2 weapon and some armor. Maybe they have a spellbook or that one sexy dagger the rogue wants. The views of monks are tarnished by these boards and no one thinks they could be a decent encounter so they won't put monk in the mix to help out there monk player's.


MrSin wrote:

+2 breastplate is 4000. +2 mithril breastplate is 8k. +2 greatsword is 8k. I don't think you have your math right with this.

Bracers of armor eat up a slot, but you need 22 wisdom to get what a breastplate will in AC.

I wouldn't say they are on par with paladins, or that paladins are that far off from Fighters and Barbarians. I'm not keen on rangers myself.

No need to resort to name calling.

goto page 550 in your player's handbook look at the table and tell me how much it costs to craft a +2 breastplate armor and than explain why armor and weapons are priced as base Price which on page 550 base price is the cost to create. All of the other weapons list Market Price and Cost to Create (Cost to create is also the base price on the table on page 550 if you can do the math)


Thomas Long 175

1d8 in nearly your own words even though you were talking about damage is just 1 less hp per level.

Touch attack comes up often enough or your DM just doesn't use spellcasters against you very often?

At level 8 your unarmed damage increased to 1d10 and at level 12 it'll again change to 2d6. Every 4 levels the monks unarmed damage increases.

The attribute purchase for a monk isn't much different from a paladin or a ranger trying to buy attributes you could remove constitution from the list below, but you'd still be in the same attribute purchase area

Monk Paladin Ranger
Str Str Str
Dex Con Dex
Con Wis Con
Wis Chr Wis

8th level Human Fighter with Breatplate +2 Dex of 14 is 19 AC
Didn't put his racial into Dex didn't put his stat bumps into dex either why would he fighters need the strength.

8th level Human Monk with Dex 14, Wis 20 +2 monk stuff Bracers of Armor +2 is 21 AC
So far that level 8 monk has a little higher Regular AC and a lot higher Touch AC. They also paid the same price for there AC's.

He is using Elemental Fist and using d6's.

Not all enemies are range enemies some are melee enemies I do my encounters differently than the book suggests because I like using hordes of monsters, but it's boring when you send small CR monsters at a group that is about 4 CR to low on average I send CR's that are 1 to equal there level after them and bosses are atleast 3 or 4 CR higher.

All the monk AC boosting items are the same cost as a fighters because with the exception of the shield a monk can use all of the same ones.


Bracers of Armor is an armor bonus to keep the scale up with an armor enhancement.

if you pump your dex and wis up to 18 than you've already messed up your character. Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12 (just for the extra skill points), Wis 16, Cha 7

Amulet +2 20k it's a high price, but all of your unarmed attacks are +2 weapons instead of having just 1 +2 weapon that can be disarmed, and I'm assuming you've never been disarmed it sucks, +2 bracers of armor is 4k
Monk has spent 24k so far.

+2 Breastplate costs costs 4k to craft the armor that's not the market price otherwise the crafter of the magical item makes no money hence it's called "Base Price" instead of market price so your 2k dollar +2 breastplate actually costs 8k in the shop.

cost to make
Bonus squared x 1000gp (2 x 2) x 1k = 4k
average market price is cost to make x2 (4k x 2) = 8k for that +2 breast plate armor

+2 Great sword he's walking around with is base price 8k

cost to make
Bonus squared x 2000k (2 x 2) x 2k = 8k
once again average market price is cost to make x2 (8k x 2) = 16k for that +2 great sword

Look on the crafting tables on page 550 if you don't understand how base price works. If you are selling your players for base price than you are stupid and the crafter is making no money because he doesn't understand how to make money which means you as a DM don't understand how to make money.

The monk spent 20k on the amulet of mighty fists, and 4k on the bracers or armor totaling at 24k

The fighter spent 16k on his +2 Great Sword, and 8k on his Breastplate armor totaling at 24k.

So far for the same items they paid the same price. Except all of the monks unarmed attacks became magic.

Armor and Weapons are the only section that use base price they should put market prices for them so people don't get a cheaper weapon without paying the mark up.

If we want to bring in monks robe than we should look at any other equipment a fighter will need, because no fighter alone can survive on armor and shield.

Monks ACs not comparable to heavy armor ACs, and fighters are barbs are better frontline fighters, but a monk is equal to a paladin and a ranger at the front of the fight.

As for your Prognosis I understand you are sitting infront of your computer so you feel like being an ass, and you just want to go with the boards to many people for some odd reason say the boards said this so I'm just going to assume it's right. I already know he's not optimizing, he has an equal wealth as everyone else, there are no house rules that are helping anyone. With your prognosis I already know I know more about the game than you do, because you are a single minded and obviously refused to look at it yourself you are just pulling random numbers out so far.

No I don't have one of his characters on me and even if I did I wouldn't post it because it's a currently played character.


d8 HD seems to be ok for frontline fighter type, Full BAB when they flurry of blows, High Touch AC, by level 4 they are doing d8 for damage which is equal to or higher than most weapons. I think the main problem the boards have with monks is that everyone wants to be frontline fighter, mobile fighter and skill monkey.

Rynjin wrote:
More BaB, bigger hit dice more skills, Medium armor, free prerequisite-less Feats, less MAD-ness, still has Evasion (though not improved

Monks get full BAB when they flurry of blows, monks have d8's for HD just 1 step below a fighter, Monks AC is equal to medium armor and better than heavy armor if they have stat boosting magical items a very high touch AC, they get improved evasion at level 9 which is anywhere from 1 level to 11 levels faster than a rogue depending on how fast you pick it as a rogue. If I wanted to be a skill character I'd play a bard maybe a rogue second.

They get 1 magical item that makes all of there unarmed attacks magical, monks belt that makes them act 4 levels higher. That's not even going into AC boosting magical items, other magical items and feats. My monk player is pulling an extra 2 or 3 d8's in elemental damage and he's not even a monk of the four winds. I don't see anything wrong with the monk when he's taking swings at my monsters.

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