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Pathfinder Society Member. 1,646 posts (1,648 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.


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no... the class guide is "additional books" in our game.
the core 4 books are auto accepted . all rest only if balanced,


because Swash have some weird non closed issues.

for example:
"Precise Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler. She can even use this ability with thrown light or one-handed piercing melee weapons"

a Swash that hold no weapon in habd #2, but attack with armor spike or imp- unarmed strike with the style making it piercing.
you dont attack with a weapon in other hand, you do with the knees.
and 2 weapon with it's level as bonus.... that is high.


Its not same twf and flurry... Sohei att nire times a round,1.5 str.

Lore got free manevur like dirty tricks.


Unchained isnt allowed. He isnt banning all, just non core stuff that might raise issues


in regard the nice thread of :
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2se13?Best-Swordsmen-in-the-World

it got me thinking. and as this advice needed for a bit different than the OP in the former thread - i start a new one.

i LOVED Syrio Forel from game of thrones. or a style like him.
i dont indent to "build him" but play with his style.
although, our game is 1 > 20, not capping level 6.
with his phrase "what do we say to the god of death not today..."

looking at the optional classes, as swashbuckler is not allowed.
it got me thinking into 3 options for a weapon master, and i like your aid in comparing them.

1) Lore warden X \ maneuver master 2,
dex build - scimitar, 1 handed.
maneuvers will be disarm, trip and dirty tricks.
the monk allow not wasting any actions.
decent saves, good ac, decent enough DPR - with super # of feats.

2) a Samurai X \ monk of maneuvers 2 OR monk of styles 2.
the idea is katana user - order of the dragon OR warrior OR Penitent.
dragon in particular can assist others well with swift aid.
challenge, weapon SP, crit fishing and a single maneuver to master (trip?)
full crane style or archon style for some more buffs.

3) Sohei monk, using a nodachi. (or... any monk with 1 in cleric for sword flurry).
self restoration, barkskin, movement, saves, skills in return for little less bab and survival tools.


i picture a light sword master.
like the master in game of thrones who worked with Aria.
for me, its:
lore warden X, dip 2 into maneuver master monk.
dex build, rapier or scimitar.
full of feats with super cmb\cmd\AC\saves \ evasion.
you full attack \ dirty trick \ disarm \ trip all with any sword.
you make the foe stop - not kill .
the DPR isnt super, but a blind\tripped\shaked\sicken foe .... you can take your time with the kill...

option 2:
any monk, sohei sound the most fitting, but hungry ghost is also optional.
dip 1 into a cleric and flurry with any single blade.
flurry is exactly a master aswordman - 7-8 attacks a round.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:


As for AC, I don't think you'll suffer too much as long as you have a decent dex score. You could always grab the armor expert trait and plan on upgrading to a mithral breastplate once you had the cash for it.

how?

decent STR (start of min 16-17), wis of min 14, con of 14 no tanking abilites.
dex wont be more than 14.

even mithral breast plate, it's 10+6+2 = 18 pre enchants. thats like wearing nothing...
with snake style i can have sense motive of (lvl 9), 9+2+3 = 15 > like AC of 25. pre skill focus or magic.

with crane i can boost AC a bit more, but attack less.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Depends entirely on the GM. Ask him if he will let your efforts be meaningful or if the AP supports use of a mount.

Definitely do this. It would suck to invest a bunch of feats into mounted combat, then find out you can't actually use your mount.

Assuming a mount's viable, I'd definitely pick one up. Mounted Skirmisher gives you mobile flurrying that's a lot more flexible than what pummeling style offers (no charge limitations, can use weapons other than your fists). I did really enjoy my flurry of nodachi swings sohei when I tried that out.

As for AC, I don't think you'll suffer too much as long as you have a decent dex score. You could always grab the armor expert trait and plan on upgrading to a mithral breastplate once you had the cash for it.

i was misunderstood.

option 1 is go mounted combat feats & 3 feats to gain a mount.
option 2 is to take "normal" monk feats and not mounted, and no mount.

sohei is still an amazing archetype as it flurry with spears .
long spears for melee and with quick draw, tossing 6 javelins a round aint bad.


Covert Operator wrote:
The other option for an AC is Animal Ally feat.

true, still 3 feats..


as DM dont allow leadership - the only path open for a AC is:
skill focus (nature)
eldritch heritage (for animal companion)
boon companion. (full ac).

3 feats. it's costly, heavy and can be altered with :
imp grapple, grt grapple, rapid grapple for example.

a mount less Sohei is still amazing but lacking 3 key ability:
1) no mounted skirmisher (in, out)
2) no one to share the used ki with
3) no one to give the temp hp.

so....
is it worth the trouble?
or - just focus on being a full flurry nightmare ?

last Q:
as dex build sucks, DPR wise, going STR and light armor will leave the Sohei with low armor class.
so, how do i not die?
crane style?
snake style?
as i would probably need pummeling style as well... it's costly.


I found 5 great builds , 2 were fun tested.

Barbarian 6, sd 3, barbarian x.
The stongest shadow ever. Big damage fellow but thin on feats.

Ranger 6, sd 3-4, ranger x.
Ranger get 2 needed melee feats, skill monster and a decent attacker. More scout than dpr.

Lore warden x sd 1or3.
Weird low saves combo. Spring attack in, trip, add free aoo, move out.

Thug/ scout rouge 8 sd 4 .
Move with spring attack = auto smeak attack.

Cabalier and sd 3
Full pet, full shadow. Its a one man army.


what class will work best for the next idea.
i like the following things:
1) be decent + in melee. decent = good (even if not #1) damage
2) DONT be a one trick pony - so no if i can charge & free & for is medium i can auto kill.....
3) i like maneuvers. a lot. but i am realistic. some monsters are therefor the kill. few are triped, grappled etc. so a Tetori monk sucks for me - because some adventures are all about ghost hunting or dragon hunting - that will rip you apart if pin was failed.
4) no tanking of abilities,
5) no item creating or buying. DM give quite a few items - but non are glove fit to you. so never trust you will get a +4 wisdom item, you might get +2 only and +2 to CON.... building a career on a temple sword \ katana \ exotic weapon will make you very sad - as long sword and scimitar are every where, and a temple sword \ katana \ exotic weapon is rare.
6) exception to 5. eldritch heritage arcane allow a player to enchant a single weapon \ item .

so....
here are the options i had in mind.

RANK THOSE : i added a # to assist the answers.



options #1
Lore Warden X \ maneuver master monk 2:

:

PRO :
nice Saves & evasion.
free action maneuver = no waste of actions.
HUGE feats and CMB.
good skills.
can focus on more than 1 maneuver and still do decent damage
CON:
no spells.
low AC (as dex builds do little damage ).



options #2
Lore Warden X \ THUG ROGUE 3:

:

PRO :
+2d6 sneak
enforcer \ cournogon smash add almost auto&free shaken >> fear.
(fear locking a foe, you attack he run, you attack etc..)
adding no check -2 sicken, -2 shaken, -2 from rogue talent.
still good CMB and # of feats.
great skills.
CON:
low saves. especially will saves.
sneak attack is not trustworthy.



options #3
Sohei monk X

:

PRO :
rolling LOAD of dice per round.
can alter several for maneuvers.
STR build will do decent enough damage - flurry with a polearm \ spear.
a single cleric dip might offer several better weapons.
CON:
is it enough on the damage department? or will i feel second best?
med hp.
med bab = not qualify for the best of feats.
low AC (str build , dex is too little damage)
survival need several style defense feats like snake or crane.



options #4
hungry ghost monk X \ cleric 1

:

PRO :
after level 7, you have amazing tanking abilities even with low AC, \
it's a cool idea, attacking while sucking life.
CON:
same damage issues as a sohei, not sure it's enough to matter.
need a style to survive and pummeling to counter DR.
not sure enough "space" for maneuvers or enough CMB.



options #5
oracle of battle X

:

PRO :
even as STR focus, with cha and CON following - you will have lvl 9 spells.
will have 1 single maneuver to master.
IF have time to buff you roll.
CON:
med at best charisma = poor DC .
have action economy issues (buy the time you buff combat is over.)
no buff = med at best DPR. (quicken will assist some what, getting a familiar & scribe will also help even if costing 4 feats....)



options #6
mounted fury barbarian X \ oracle 1

:

PRO :
good DPR, especially with the pet.
spell sunder & str surge & rage cycle = great CMB at level 9+
CON:
VERY few feats = very few options.



options #7
hunter

:

PRO :
it's a 2 man showtime.
hunter = spells,
hunter = team freebies and decent enough spells.
3/4 bab but with outflank and pack flank it's like a full bab.
with AOO from team feats, your attacks and pet your overal DPR is decent.

CON
3/4 bab for feats - late entering.
low will saves.
a bit complicated to build well.


Lore warden with a single 1-2 dip into maneuver master monk.
Great skills, saves etc.
Super cmb . maneuvers and a free dirty trick a round.
Go either str with a bastered sword or 2 short sword dex build.
In a round you will :
Dirty trick- free- blind
Dirty trick (quick) - entangle
Trip (attack )
And lastly attack non lethal to trigger enforcer for Shaken.
The foe will cry home....


i mostly take stealth via wisdom in a flesh. trained and wisdom .


DM listed the animal companions, and the list below will attract less attention entering a civilized place.

animals that wont attract weird attention are:
dog
bird
Boar
Bull, War
Wolf
Gecko, Giant
cat small.

animals that will open SOME attention but will be allowed in a city:
Cat, Big
Bear
Chameleon, Giant
Ape
Megaloceros (dire elk)

animals that will be allowed ONLY with RP of the hunter:
Rhinoceros
Vulture, Giant


you are kidding right?
human shaman with FCB and good charisma \ int have THE BEST spell list in the game.


after reading hunter, it seemed like a cool character to play.
i always liked versatility and load of D20 a round more than top DPR tables.

also the spells are a nice addons.

24 point buy, a single trait.
some DM notes that are relevant.
1) no item creating feats.
2) no item buy - we get decent finding - but you get what you find.
3) he allow the player to play animal companions, especially in combat. he also allow Apes to use weapons and armor if their int is 3+.
4) dino's are allowed BUT one need to worry with those as villages wont like it. (unlike tiger, boar, bear, wolf etc.)

so........
1) what animal companion?
Apes (with +2 human feat for up the INT) = using a god weapon for 20' reach is a nice one.
wolf - for tandem trips
tiger - for up the bonus of precise strike.
bear - cause they are the strongest medium pet.
or.... go something weirder like Mantis - with start int of 2 (human), 3 at level 4. (lunge, fly, climb, ).

2) build : here is the basics i though off:
1`- expertise and +2 to pet.
2- outflank
3- pack flanking, precise strike
5- power attack
6- broken wing gambit
7- the 1 that add shaman spirit blessing
9- lunge or paired opp.
pet will have:
toughness.
power attack
5,8 are open.


Yap. What about wild rager foe a druid, who care little for ac?
Extra bite as hippo...


oh... i see... wrote:


If the hunter's animal companion is dead, the hunter can apply her companion's animal focus to herself instead of her animal companion. This is in addition to the normal one she can choose, and (as with a companion's focus) remains in effect until the hunter changes it instead of counting against her minutes per day.


Just a Guess wrote:

For anything melee X I'd rather suggest:

1 dip into Warpriest for blessing, casting, weapon focus, favoured weapon proficiency, heavy armor, shields
1 dip hunter for permanent animal focus, spells, shields

permanent animal focus is for the pet, yours is 1minute \ level.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

mostly, dipping is bad.
high end class features like special feats, min BAB (dazing assault), spells etc makes it bad for dipping.
HOWEVER, sometimes, the dip makes a whole new class\ tactics.

Barbarian X ::

1 dip of fighter can add the needed endurance& diehard for the DR king build. without it will take a long while and make it all you have.
1 dip of fighter can offer crane style, that is better than expertise.

1 dip of oracle at level 9, makes a new class - one that use 1\rage powers EVERY round. opening str surge tactics and spell sundering every round.

Lore warden X : :

dip 1 into thug and each attack make the opponent running in screams. it can win fights.
dip 3 into thug, and your debuff are a combat ender. sicken&shaken&-2 and dirty trick every round. you will kill slowly, but hey, the foe cant react.

dip 1 into maneuver master monk, and you get a free, extra attack! and a way to use the lovely dirty tricks without wasting anything.

Druid (melee) X : :

1 monk offer : +2 to all saves, skills, imp unarmed strike, imp grapple and either flurry\style feat\extra maneuver per round.

1 barbarian offer rage.

Ranger (melee) X:

thug for fear locking the foe and sneak attacks.

Hungry ghost monk X:

1 cleric for a better weapon to flurry with (crit fishing. )

Sohei monk X:

4 levels of cavalier for a mount.

anything melee X:

1 shadow dancer offer a non optimize but nice to play character.


strayshift wrote:
The Eldritch Heritage feat opens up blaster options for you - that is always worth remembering, be it additional damage or altering the elemental type.

How so?


thing about not being large is also not drawing all the heat to you.
large size make foe focus on you as you seem like a bigger threat.


undersized mount also open a lovely dwarf \ human build on a medium mount.
it's a little... tight, but mechanically a lot better than a halfling (more str, bigger more available weapons.)


ok, assuming keeping it medium - as it is indeed offering a lot of maneuverability.
my Dm is a easy one , allowing for a ranger almost all animals and for a cavalier any non flyer - or a flyer from the "cavalier book" or monstrous mount - that he allow some more things.

what is the "best" lvl 4 \ lvl 7+ to take?
here are a few options, all at lvl 9 . with pro and cons.
(lvl 9 = +6 AC, +3 dex, +3 str, 2 ability pump)
DM also "house roled" if you choose the animal NOT to grow you get it's special abilities, just not the size and ability boost (hence, you get poison, grab, pounce but stay same size, +2str\+2con
you DONT get the + to natural armor. )
lvl 4 is always + to int.
all wear +3 armor (masterwork non magical studded leather)

Deinonychus> DM dont allow.

Ant, Riding:

STR : 16 (base) +3 (bonus) +1 lvl9 = 20
con=17
AC = (10+2(base)+6(lvl)+3(armor)+1 (dex))=22
dmg = 1d6 + 13 + grab (extra attack-5 lvl 9)
PRO:
1) climb speed, with focus on the skill can get you ANYWHERE.
2) REALLY cook looker halfling!

Badger:

STR : 14 (base) +3 (bonus) +1 lvl9 = 18
con=17
AC = (10+2(base)+6(lvl)+3(armor)+4(dex))=25
dmg = 1d6+8 bite, 1d4+8 * 2 claws .
PRO:
1) another nice looker
2) nice AC
3) can burrow (might come handy) and slowly climb (off combat handy) .

Barbed Ram:

STR : 14 (base) +3 (bonus) +1 lvl9 = 18
con=13
AC = (10+1(base)+6(lvl)+3(armor)+4(dex))=24
dmg = gore 1d6 +6(str)+6 (power att) +1 bleed and more on a charge.
(extra attack-5 lvl 9)
PRO :
nothing much...
CON:
lower hp
so-so at best.

Bear:

STR : 19 (base) +3 (bonus) +1 lvl9 = 23
con=15
AC = (10+2(base)+6(lvl)+3(armor)+3(dex))=24
dmg = dmg = 1d6+10 bite, 1d4+10 * 2 claws .
PRO:
1) best medium size STR (bonus to cavalier)
2) decent AC and HP
3) decent self damage
CON:
1) no special ability!

Bristle Boar:

STR : 19 (base) +3 (bonus) +1 lvl9 = 23
con=17
AC = (10+6(base)+6(lvl)+3(armor)+1(dex))=26
dmg = gore 1d8 +15 (extra attack-5 lvl 9) (+spines)
PRO : decent with imp natural weapon
decent "tank"

Cat, Small:

STR : 16 (base) +3 (bonus) +1 lvl9 = 20
con=15
AC = (10+1(base)+6(lvl)+3(armor)+6(dex))=26
dmg = 1d6+9 & (1d3+9)*2 & trip.
PRO :
1) sprint = HUGE charge distance or flee
2) 50'base move is nice
3) poor dmg Vs DR monsters, nice otherwise.

Gecko, Giant:

STR : 15 (base) +3 (bonus) +1 lvl9 = 19
con=14
AC = (10+2(base)+6(lvl)+3(armor)+3(dex))=24
dmg = 2d4+6+6 (another at -5)/
PRO:
1) spider climb
2) a medium size spider climb
3) charge lanes on ceelings with spider climbs.
CON:
low damage
low HP
low AC.
LOW bonus str with order.

Hawk, Riding:

STR : 12 (base) +3 (bonus) +1 lvl9 = 16
con=14
AC =(10+1(base)+6(lvl)+3(armor)+4(dex))=24
dmg : 1d6+7 & (1d4+7)*2
PRO:
if DM allow = a flyer.
CON:
low dmg, str, str etc.


as soon as level 4 you will have a hard choice... str Vs wis.
for me, i aint maximizing..... so a STR of 16 is enough for the entire career. later levels, when i wish to melee i just vital strike with strong jaw.... the 16d8 dont need any power attack minus.

and by advancing start WIS of 16, it's :
lvl 4> 17
lvl 8 >18
lvl 12 > 19
all you need for level 9 spells...


btw - my druids never top melee. as i build them from level 1 (melee) to level 12+ (caster summoner) .
so, 16\16 is a great start. but ALL points need to go into wisdom from that point on.
in our games we cant buy items, so getting a +2 \ +4 to your ability isnt so easy.
i think a druid need to be self reliable. getting at least the min wisdom spells needed.


best is... a weird concept.
for me, best is fun, versatile while still able to do the job (melee).
so...
#1
Sohei monk that take animal companion.
you can move and full attack with flurry (skirmisher) .
you got great saves and skills.
your pet is super strong.
you roll 100 attacks a round.

#2
hungry ghost monk, dip 1 into cleric .
flurry with a 15-20 katana, 6 attacks a round, each crit = heal your level ? yes plz.

#3
lore warden fighter that dip 3 into maneuver master monk OR thug rogue.
ever dirty tricked a dragon ?
want to shut down (grapple, grt grapple, rapid grapple for pin and tied) in round 1?

#4
small cavalier on a bear or a giant gecko.

#5
medium cavalier, order of the dragon, that fight along side (not riding! ) the animal (lion).
you defend all while still ableto attack nicely.
dip 1-4 into either a thug or maneuver master monk. (or 6 into sohei.)
charge for triple when you can, but stand and defend when cant.

#6
barbarian inv. rager.
dip 1 into oracel
dip 1 into fighter .
get DR 20, sunder magical effects, saves passed all the time and HUGE pool of HP while still doing ok damage.

#7
barbarian with a mount.
dip 1 into oracle = int 6 of animal.
rage cycle to death.
i love to be a grappling master with this build.

#8
ranger. with animal companion. mounted combat that has more skills and little less damage than a cavalier.


a small cavalier of the sword, with medium mount, will probably start with STR of 14 > 16 lvl 8.

small halfling #1 lvl 9 :

mount 1 = Gecko, Giant wrote:

>>> best medium mount for movement.
charging with a lance :
(1d6+ str(4)+power attack (9) + mount's str (4) + smite (9) +magic (2) )*3 = 95.4
Gecko attack once, for 2d4 + str (6) + power attack (6) = 16 damage
total = 110.5
no smite drops it to 83.5

upsides :
1) medium size
2) spider climb = charge lanes ceelings.

mount 2 = bear wrote:


(1d6+ str(4)+power attack (9) + mount's str (7) + smite (9) +magic (2) )*3 = 104

bear attack once, 1d6+4+7=14.5
total = 119
no smite drops it to 93
bear has no speical moment but:
1) it's cool!
2) it can full attack for decent damage.

mount 3 = going large : Arsinoitherium wrote:


(1d6+ str(4)+power attack (9) + mount's str (7) + smite (9) +magic (2) )*3 = 104
AC attack once, for (3d8+3d8) + str (10) + power attack (6) = 43 damage
total = 147 damage.
no smite drops it to 126
however - large rhino = VERY hard to chrage.
mount 4 = going large : griffon (feats needed) wrote:


(1d6+ str(4)+power attack (9) + mount's str (4) + smite (9) +magic (2) )*3 = 94
griffon attack thrice pounce
bite : 1d6+str (4) + PA (4) = 11.5
claws + rake = (1d6+4+4)*2 each (rake) = 46
total = 57.5 damage on a flying charge.

total = 151 damage.
you are large but flying.


SRD....

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions#TOC-Ro c

Roc

Rocs taken as animal companions by druids or rangers are typically newly hatched birds—a baby roc is the size of a person and ready for flight and hunting within minutes of hatching. Unfortunately for druids seeking animal companions of legendary size, an animal companion roc is limited to Large size—still large enough for a Medium druid or ranger to use the flying beast as a mount.

Starting Statistics

Size Medium; AC +5 natural armor; Speed 20 ft., fly 80 ft.; Attack 2 talons (1d4), bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 19, Con 9, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 11; Special Qualities low-light vision.

7th-Level Advancement

Size Large; AC +3 natural armor; Attack 2 talons (1d6 plus grab), bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4.


not true.
normal ranger can take a roc....
cavalier can use monstrous mount for a griffon.

order of the sword cavalier nets you the str of the mount to charges.
but the math was not right, the +24 is the total bonus not the difference .
+8 str > +4 str *3 on a charge = +12 more damage.
that is added to the already -1 from weapon size, and -3 from -4 str score - a sum that makes a difference .

add that to the bonus damage the mount it self is doing and you get to a lot of difference .

a flyer, with feats, cant enter a city - but can surly make you go to places in a dungeon.


Ranger or cavalier halfling on a medium mount are great.
Now, passed lvl 7, mount gets large in potentinal.
It mean +8 str... +24 dmg for cavalier...
Mount can fly those lvls.
So...
Keep it medium or, enlarge it?


I disagree druids cant tank per say.
The best tank is saurian >
Lion> goliath ( that win at high levels).
But unlike a barbarian, druid need to use tactics.

As saurian you either choose a main form, obtain a wild armor, or dip 1 monk level at about level 10.
My saurian build was :
1- augument aummon
3- rime spell
5- natural spell
7- planar wild shape
9- quick wild shape and power attack.
Each fight start the same:
High level :
Round 1:
1) summon anylosauroua (lvl4,5 spells).
2) quick wild shape into something with 1 big attack or several atracks- depend on foes dr. Celectial form.
3) move in.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Stegosaurus in masterwork studded leather armor won't even know the kobolds are trying to hit it.

Con 9-20 med hp dice? He wont live the magic missile


I love to take wisdom in the flesh - stealth, and massive perception.
Its a decent scout


A druid need to choose....
It has severalz Q and sub Q's.
1) melle > caster?
2) melle = caster?
3) castet > melle.
You choose 1 .
Sub Q's :
1) dpr?
2) tank?
3) maneuver master?

Dpr :
1) barbarian dip, vital strike build.
2) tiger pouncer
3)golith reach build

Tank:
1) monk dip (wisdom to ac)
2) planar wildbshape or goliath if high level.
3) elemantal earth and cover

Maneuvers:
Graplle greater, grab or grt bull rush buils go well .
2) dip maneuver master monk.

What do you do with spells? No wisdom for dc.
1) debuff (walls, rimed frost bite)
2) buff (barkskin, resist energy etc)
3) simmon if saurian


How?
Barbarian and monk cant mix, alignment issues....


Scaffold Kane wrote:

A level of maneuver master monk to pick up Crane Style, a level of Unbreakable Fighter for Endurance and Die Hard, and Invulnerable Rager straight down the board. At 5th level, take Stalwart (feat). Take the superstition rage power. Preferably human to pump up your saves with superstition. Then take the Defensive Strategist trait so you can't be caught flat-footed for going after an enemy and so you can go into a rage to avoid some horrendous effect using a Headband of Havoc.

At level 8, for example, you can have a decent AC (not fantastic really, but you can invest), DR 7/- (3/- for barbarian and 4/- for fighting defensively in Crane Style). Your saves will be boosted by 5 (or 6 if you use the Headband of Havoc to boost it) against spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. All just for taking a -2 to attack (which rage replaces) and having to be buffed before the rage.

Compared to, say, a typical CR 10 dragon, you mitigate half (or a little better) the damage it can do with melee assuming each attack lands, your base saves are +9/+4/+4, so you avoid its breath and stuff the vast majority of the time. Which I might advocate a second level of monk for Evasion and some other cool stuff, but that's for another discussion.

I could draw up a build, but you get the idea. This character is a tough cookie to crack. And the best part? DR focus makes it so that healing is less necessary. Just keep raging, my superstitious friend. Oh, and if you're having trouble with the monk into barbarian thing, your other trait can be Adopted (Enlightened Warrior).

how?

maneuver master = lawful.
barbarian = not.


barbarian ? HUGE DR, great saves, be a 1/2 orc or dwarf or even human.
also, hungry ghost monk if >level 7


for me? he is a classic invulnerable rager barbarian.
DR = fast healing (as if attacked and auto healed).
rage offer claws.
DR also = the inner armor he got...


your monk offer no damage output, especially Vs Dr.
has no grapple so no foe will stay around him (even soaking the AOO from the no power attack weapon).
he is a mosquito at best.


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lvl 20+ is not about combat. at least it isnt about killing.
it's about shaping the world, about moving planets and going the god mode.
it's not killing 100000 orcs, it's killing 100 orcs while not harming the hostages.


after some play test i find the 2 totally different.
Goliath is best as a specialist, a full caster that melee. str major, con and wisdom will follow. he is a variant of magus .
lvl 1-4 so use cure light wounds, entangle etc - and team fight with your dino.
lvl 6 is the last level you are human. from there on you are a troll using weapon - that cast for healing, controlling with non saves spells like frostbites, and melee.
level 12+ you also tank greatly with regeneration.
the skills are a lot better as well, diplomacy, bluff etc.

Saurian, can choose many path.
with wisdom in a flesh, and turning into small naive animals, you can enter any where and gain all the information needed.
after level 5 you are the #2 summoner in the game - especially for meat shields. you "can" melee, but since the armor, unless dipping one into a monk, will be so-so - you need to be careful.
my saurian used reach animals with lunge or earth elemental earth glide tactics.
regeneration is rare, and only saved to few plants - but DR is decent.


here are a few builds:
lore warder 10, maneuver master monk 2.
the maneuver is free action bonus every round. mostly trip or dirty tricks. all while you full attack with a heavy flail.

lore warden 9, thug 3.
you can still maneuver well, but also strike fear. every attack = free action indimidate, win= opponent is running.
also, add no check sicken and extra -3 to hits.
(cornogoun smash, skill focus, dazzling spear)


yes, big colossal foes are less effected with maneuvers.
and a beholder is immune to spells.

a one trick pony = fail.
i had 2 characters with maneuver usage and it worked great. both had a solid "plan b" - like all character need.
even a blaster wizard take 1-2 summoning in case it's better...


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Joynt Jezebel wrote:
There is the Mask of Giants magic item. That gives you a no of the benefits of the Goliath druid. There is no Dinosaur Mask. I don't know if you are likely to get it in your campaign, or have access to item creation feats, but its a consideration.

No need for a Dinosaur Mask, Goliath Druids can Shapeshift into Dinosaurs as well (and MegaFauna)

Problem with Mask of Giants is twofold: it cost a fortune, and it uses the same slot than Jingasa of Fortunate Soldier and/or Helm of Mammoth Lord. So you can be either a Saurian Shaman with a Mask of Giants, or you could be a Goliath Druid with a Helm of Mammoth Lord and 81500gp in gear. It's not a cost free choice, you pay for that, literally.

In the end, Saurian Shamans are probably going to be more aggresive and offensive. Standard action summons is powerful when you summon pouncing dinosaurs, and being a pouncing dinosaur yourself is powerful as well. Goliath druids will have better access to armor and magic items (in giant form you can activate them, read scrolls or use wands), more feats (you don't have to pay for nature spell or wildspeech), better, cheaper and sooner access to heavy armor, but will lack pounce, and planar shape's smite evil.

The OP mentions a 1 lvl dip into Monk for the saurian shaman, which is great. I suggest 1 lvl dip into ranger, for shapsifting hunter feat. If you play in a campaign with a clear enemy (my goliath druid plays GiantSlayer), +4 to +8 attack and damage from favored enemy is huge (assuming you get it after lvl 6, as giant form is a priority in my opinion). At higher levels you could even think about Giant Bane Caster feat, which let's you add half your favored bonus to spell DC. +2 to +4 let you overcome your lower wisdom, and use some spells in certain situations (like aqueaus orb and whatever), or benefit extra from spells you cast for other reasons, like Vine Strike or Resinous Skin. If you go the weapon route, at 14th you are huge and have access to Lead Blade wands, which...

first i agree on the analysis.

saurian has more options , summons, planar shape, normal animals for disguise and plants. also, bonus feats.

goliath is more specialize. more 3/4 class, full caster with constant con\str combat bonus.
better armor class options, better regeneration (Dr can be achieved from spells.) . better magical weapons.

so, if you want to be one of the best 3/4 melee classes > go goliath.
if you want to be all over the place, vital strike KABBBOOMS, pounce, earth glide to saurian .

as i was already once a saurian, i think i will give the melle monster a chance.


Shaman as caster healer.
Or a manuver guy like:
Manuver master monk 2, lore warden 5.

Also, a sword cavalier , on a gecko / tiger, is a charger and tank.

I love hungry ghost monks as well.


agree on mastering one thing... But.
A saurian str druid, dipping 1 into monk for ac, can still , if keeping min wisdom score (19 - tops), summon with spells to add plan b.
Also earth elemental is escape and scout mode.
Hence a saurian will have lower weapon and armor , but more summon meat shield and vital strike booms.
Some plants has huge reach.

A golaith have other shtieks.
1) better weapon and armor
2) better ac.
3) nice reach
4) can speak , can disguise self
5) at high levels, 12+ the regeneration is supreme.

Lets break into levels :

Lvl 1>>>
Same companion / domain. Same abilities.

Lvl 2>>> saurian have advantage with totwmic shapechange.

Lvl 3>> still

Lvl4>>> some claim goliath get wild shape while saurain wait to 6 (my dm disagree).

Lvl 5>>>
Saurian can super summon, and now is #2 summoner in the game even with decent only wisdom.

Lvl6>
Saurian can shape into medium animals and huge/ large dinos. Can get all the lvl 8 powers.
Goliath can choose medium/ large animals, and large trolls (up to 2 bites 2 claws, or 15' reach), with weapons and armor.
Goliath wins in personal dpr, but not sure if i calculate the summons as well if he still top the 2.

....up to lvl 11 same, exept saurian is +1 feats.

Lvl 12+
Giant form is amazing. Regereration is super strong. And give a strong fight to ankylosauroua summons


war is at hand.
my next character will see a lot of combat.
we start at level 1 but will grow ASAP in levels, reaching up to 15 or so in the game.

the druid is meant to be a hybrid - casting when can, summoning and melee quite a few - all depends on the scene.

as the 2 archetype have the same domain \ animal choice (give or take), we can skip that part in the comparison. (probably a trex as a pet. or rage domain. )

so, Goliath:
skills : some what better than saurian, especially off combat.

Enlarge person is a poor spell, as it's a full round to cast - one cant really use it well.

wild shape: no elemental or plant, is a painful one. earth elemental are amazing. the lvl 6 buff is decent, making you a nice +4 str and natral attacker giant. it's better than the shaman's shaman shape.
giant form is amazing and super powerful.
regeneration, using gear and more.

the saurian though, can summon as standard action is a game changer ability.

so..... verdict?


Its a cool archtype. But... Is it better than saurian thst summon as sdandard?

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