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Pathfinder Society Member. 2,333 posts (2,335 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Rhedyn wrote:

Have a back up character ready for when your rogue dies.

Urogue is a great improvement on the base rogue, but you will still die horribly at some point, especially in melee.

why?

other than the saves, that require assistance of feats \ trait etc, rogues have great AC (after the foe suffer -10 to his attacks...)
and with spring attacks he is never hit.


Spire defender magus 2 is better .
Spell strike work with dervish dance ....
2 levels offer dex to daamge, 2 feats , extra attack , 3 to the poor saves and some spells....wow


But flurry won't allow dex to damage right ?


Sohei is a win. Flurry in light armor...


Tyrant Lizard King wrote:

Crocodile Domain (Mauler archetype for your Caiman)

VMC Rogue for more Sneak Attack
Mauler plus Animal Growth makes your Caiman Large
Use your familiar as a flank buddy, buff with your spells, and lay down the pain. Also, try being Lizardfolk or Scaleheart Skinwalker for this, maybe go for a natural attack build.

familiar should not enter the front. 50% of a d8 HP ...it will die really fast.


lastly, rogue are a solo class... you are in a party.
wait for the fighter \ barbarian to engage, and than you can dash in and out as much as you want, the foe will never eat a AOO to get to you...

also, you missed the BEST part, the foe will not know WHERE you are...
after the spring attack in, attack and out you hide in plain sight...
and in those levels, it'sm almost safe to assume haste is there... so 60' move is a plenty.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
DrDeth wrote:


So, you move 15' in and then 15' out. If the foe takes a 5' step, you're out of range (for their full attack, with 5' reach)

Okay - so now you're also burning feats on Spring Attack?

In addition, you can only do that once, because you can't use Spring Attack against a target if you start in melee range.

not burning, investing.... it's the same feats that inserted the 1 level of shadow dancer.

if foe is now near me? acrobatics away from him...
or get a buddy to flank and full attack it.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Derklord wrote:
666bender wrote:

scout archtype , after level 8 offer 100% sneaks .

move 10' with spring attack and get a sneak.
For a single attack per round. Which means your damage will be absolutely abysmal.

Rogues just miss with their iterative attacks anyway. I suppose at lvl 20 or so you are missing out, but since games dont go much beyond 12 in most cases, I dont see you losing much.

and it usually stops your foe from doing a Full attack on you, which is very nice.

1. Unchained Rogues which hit with their primary attack are actually more accurate with their first iterative attack at level 10+ due to Debilitating Injury. (not counting TWF)

2. Unless the rogue is making ranged attacks (in which case you're already at range) how is moving 10ft before attacking going to prevent you from being full-attacked?

1. foe need to move to get to you

2. is you win the stealth, and took 1 shadow dancer level, and dampen presence , the foe have no idea where are you , so he CANT attack.


DrDeth wrote:
Derklord wrote:
666bender wrote:

scout archtype , after level 8 offer 100% sneaks .

move 10' with spring attack and get a sneak.
For a single attack per round. Which means your damage will be absolutely abysmal.

Rogues just miss with their iterative attacks anyway. I suppose at lvl 20 or so you are missing out, but since games dont go much beyond 12 in most cases, I dont see you losing much.

and it usually stops your foe from doing a Full attack on you, which is very nice.

oh, it's a lot more than that.... i'll explain :

take U-chain Rogue 11, shadow dancer 1.
take dampen presence feat and something to destroy scent.
you dash in-out, with a shadow armor and skill focus, and small size for a auto win stealth AFTER the attack .
with haste - you have 60' to move about , free. no target by foes or spells.

as for your one attack, it's one but it's anything BUT weak :
as a halfling you can use (with a feat) bluff and not intimidate and not effected by opponent's size, so, again, almost a sure win.

so....
weapon +2, power attack, no other buffs:
1d8 (small elven blade) +2 (magic) + 10 (dex*1.5) +9 (power attack) + 6d6 damage.
opponent is, no save -6 to his AC VS the rogue (-4 to the rest.).
Rake or enforcer feat add shaken.
(if rake the check is WOW and lethal, if thug the for is auto frighten + sicken as well... )

now add either Double Debilitation (-6 to attacks vs rouge, -4 to the rest.) or crippling strike (-2 STR) or 6 bleed, or no AOO, or a free dispel magic..... (choose 1).

with Debilitation + Double Debilitation + shaken + sicken :
-10 to hit VS the rogue / -8 Vs the rest of the party (Double Debilitation + sicken +shake)
-6 to AC vs the rogue / -4 to the rest
-4 to saves
-2 to damage.

and the rogue is no where to be found.... yes you do a LOT LESS damage than a barbarian.... but "buff" like a bard, debuff like a shaman\witch and have 11 skill\level to add non combat roles.
(here again, Rake add a lot...)

there is a feat to use evasion for fort saves (will save you life...)
so, only will is the weak spot . like most melee.

SHOW ME 1 SPELL that can do ALL that AND 47 damage EVERY round.

OH, and if faced with a SUPER ARMORED foe, one that the fighter need 19 to hit?
use your infinite Acid Splash after a move for a touch attack, you will hit more than the fighter and deliver
1d3+6d6+all the list above... NO SAVE OR SR
scout will allow the move = NO CHECK sneak.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

a few more notes:

scout archtype , after level 8 offer 100% sneaks .
move 10' with spring attack and get a sneak.
move 10' and cast your infinite no SR acid cantrip for decent sneak .
my future rogue is planned to be:

lvl 1 : swashbuckler (mouser) for flanks and prof. or monk for saves .(not neededm just nice)
lvl 2-5: U-rogue. use acid cantrip and choose a dagger or elven blade.
lvl 6: 1 dip into shadow dancer
rest rouge.

spring attack in and out of the shadows. debuff, and be a skill master.

add the scout 1 of the 3 below for more coolness:
1 . thug. with enforcer feat = every hit for run away...and free no save sicken.
2. Rake. HUGE intimidate free action , lethal. with skill unlock - can also make foe run away.
3. knife master. use d8, not d6 as sneak is fun.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Unfortunately, rogues are rather poor at dirty fighting due to their low BAB, though you can definitely make a solid feint build.

The stats are okay, though I don't think that you need the CON that high. A 14 should be plenty.

Ex:
STR:8
Dex:19 (human bonus)
Con:14
Int:12
Wis:12
Cha:14

You should probably either go with an elven curved blade or go TWF, though if you use a single rapier you can use a masterwork buckler with no penalty even when you're not proficient.

If you're worried about durability, halflings make amazing rogues, especially if you want to go with a Feint build since they get the +2 Charisma. Just take the racial ability to get 30ft movement. Their +1 to hit, AC, & to all saves are very nice.

So for a Halfling -

STR:6
Dex:19 (human bonus)
Con:14
Int:12
Wis:12
Cha:16

Trait: Muscle of the Society

Feats: Improved Feint or TWF at level 1 - and then either take Improved Feint at 3 if you took TWF or take Elven Curved Blade proficiency, eventually picking up Greater Feint.

Unfortunately - the rapier is now a rather subpar weapon for rogues, at least until level 11 due to Finesse Training. This is because you don't get the damage of an elven curved blade (which gets 1.5 Dex) and you can't TWF effectively with a pair of rapiers.

If you want to go the rapier route, going with a Swashbuckler might fit your vibe better than a rogue.

not true.

unchained rogue offer HUGE minus to the AC = minus to the foe's CMD.
also, go skulking slayer for decent dirty trick bonus if needed.

i prefer a halfling, dex focus, Rake or Thug + scout with spring attacks.


Well, my monk has great use magic device and I flurry a staff...I cast with use magic , cures or .....versatility


Larger foes will have super cmb, so later items and skill focus climb are needed


You can't 2 weapon , as 1 hand is needed for climbing.
Add the Halfling feat to turn bluff as intimidate , and enforcer with a cruel weapon.
Be aware that the enemy will focus on you mostly ....


1 person marked this as a favorite.

i was thinking on :
chaos + madness & guided hand + conductive weapon.
use ONLY wisdom and charisma (with CON 14).

another option is full plate + STR of 14 (min for melee when no powers or spells ).

another weird one, is evangalist with madness domain.
bard boost + bad touch is a wonderful combo.


Swashbuckler (or better , daring champion ) can also throw a dagger well as precise strike work with thrown


i LOVE the idea of a no wild-shape druid. although the lose is indeed a big one...

what build do you think will be a great one?
i DONT want to be a caster only - but cast and something else.
Archery? (lose out on the sneak attacks)
weapon and shield ?
2 weapons ?
something else?


Reach weapon to not be there.
Dip 1 into fighter for weapons and free crane style . (another +4 ac)
Add expertise .


can it be sone WITHOUT needing any magical gear?
let's see:
1 lvl mouser halfling.
4 level druid (+shaping focus, shape as level 8)
4 levels unchained rogue (Vexing Dodger)
2 levels monk or unarmed fighter.

wild shape into a tiny bird , dex to damage comes from rogue.
no items needed....


i always see a rogue's job as a debuffer > damage.
so... Rake or thug or skulking slayer with scout (unchained) are my top choices.

stack as much as no save minus and than let your allies kill the sod.


Add a scout to the knife master....spring attack = sneak
Charging throw = sneak


Magus
Swashbuckler
Daring champion (better )
Rogue (rake , thug , knife master )


Imbicatus wrote:

If you're going to go rogue 3, you should go rogue 4. Debilitating injury is very good. That said, unchained rouge is not the only way to make a high damage dex based knife fighter. Fighter, vigilante, swashbuckler, bloodrager, slayer, and barbarian can all make it work very well.

Don't overlook slashing grace and two-weapon grace. And worshiping Pharasma can give you a +2 sacred bonus to hit with deific obedience, which can open up some nice prestige classes as well.

What is " two-weapon grace."

Slashing grace w/o t work as 2 weapon trick


The Sideromancer wrote:
Krell44 wrote:
which archetype gives the sorcerer an animal companion, and which book is it in?
Wildblooded archetype, Sylvan(fey) bloodline, appears in Ultimate Magic.

Evangelist cleric is a better buffer that can kill along the mount .

Bard boost , divine favor shared and win.

Spirit guide nature oracle can have a super list that change daily with animal with int 6 and heroism , overland flight and scorching rays.


summon earth elemental (immune to precision.)
grapple him.
use fort \ will saves.
disarm him
sunder
dirty trick (blind) him
swash are REALY not OP.

a barbarian level 12 : str 30 (base 28, item +2, rage +6).
2d6+13 (str) + 12 (PA) +2 (magic) = base 2d6+27
without precision problems.

BTW, if any, a daring champion cavalier (with 1 dip into swash or the prestige for parry). can add his level twice....

heck, a magus can easy out damage ANY swash ,


Dragonchess Player wrote:
deuxhero wrote:

Why not Arcane Archer?

Zen Archer Monk/Empyreal Sorcerer/Arcane Archer X

Arcane archer, after gaining Imbue Arrow (and possibly Enhance Arrows (Elemental)), really doesn't provide a whole lot. Especially since all of the other arrow tricks are limited times per day and/or cannot be used with Imbue Arrow. That third lost level of casting progression (on top of monk levels) absolutely prevents 9th level spells.

[Fighter or ranger] 1/wizard 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8 ends up with +17 BAB and spell progression as a 17th level wizard. In addition, using wizard as the arcane class means you can learn every arcane spell you want/can find.

Arcane archer level 3 is great, elemental bow


Therians wrote:

I like the shaman idea, always loved eveil eye, and ill omen, was looking for a good build but could not find it.

Still looking for a good way do use spirituallist to, as concept its the one that i find the most attractive, but couldn't find anything complete enough to make the build.

For the bounty hunter triple cheking all the feat prerequisites etc this would be the final version if i decide for a non caster PC:

Human focused study alternate racial trait, slayer favored class 1/6 slayer talent
(20 buy point)
str 18 (16+12)
dex 14
con 14
int 8
wis 12
cha 10

1 brawler combat expertise, human bonus skill focus intimidate
2 slayer
3 slayer improved dirty trick
4 slayer
5 slayer signture skill intimidate, ranger style feat power attack
6 slayer
7 slayer cornugon smash, slayer talent from human favored class bonus into grater dirty trick
8 slayer second human skill focus
9 slayer combat reflexes, slayer talent ranger style feat furios focus
10 slayer
11 slayer dirty trick master

Notable tactis used other than the obvious dirty trick and cornugon smash is especially at lower leves abuse the brawlers martial flexibility to get the enorcer feat that he can use with unarmed strikes, later on he might prefer to use the floating feat to get the next up on the chain if he meets the BaB prerequisits. I'm not usually a fan of dipping, but here the brawler really is a good dip.

Gear to seek in order of importance(correct me if i'm wrong please):
+X cruel weapon
+X cloack of resistance, plus anything else that can boost the low will save
items that boost intimidate
standard AC items
something for mobility (maybe this should be higher on the list right after the cruel weapon? not having any in built mobility or any worth ranged attack if he cant reach his enemy he is pretty screwd/usless)

Shaman build is easy...

Level 1 of either sohei or Unchained monk than shaman " speaker of the past "
Hex strike no save evil with a flurry.
Wisdom to ac , have access to barkskin, blink, heroism and divine favor.
Revelation for armor that isn't an armor... Wis and dex to ac, go str or dex build.
Flurry a weapon with battle spirit (specialize, bane ) and greater magic wepon .
Time frost bite , evil eye and much, much more .
The monk level even your saves a bit, and adding flurry is always nice.
Heaven is just as good as battle .


More options :
Magus or shaman with hex strike of evil eye.
Add enforcer , rime frost bite and you have a super , no saves , build.
Make the magus kensai and rock the crit builds


Magus can splash some missing wizard spells in the build with Essex and with spell recall have the same number of spells .
Add hexes and wow.


Unchained rogue are the master , with thug and scout and enforcer feat.
Or take for super feat.

Dip 2 into bounty hunter to add sneak as sorry tricks .


Can't see how EK is viable with magus existence.


Lore warden X with 4 levels in Unchained Rouge (thug or rake) .
the sheer number of effects you do, with or without a check is insane :
thug 4:
need enforcer, but every attack will have a free shaken that turn into a fear effect + sicken (no check).
Rake 4:
easier free intimidate every attack.
Skulking slayer 4:
every attack = a free dirty trick.
EVERY rogue 4 also add:
-2 AC (-4 vs rogue) + no AOO (rogue talent).

than add:
spear dancer = dazzled
several dirty trick effects.
maybe even a trip.

the lore warden offer a super CMB, but it can work well on a 2 weapon slayer X \ rogue 4


Claxon wrote:

Didn't follow this thread the whole way through but...

Two weapon fighting is viable in specific instances, for certain classes. But isn't a good generic tactic for anyone.

To make the best use of it you need to have things that increase your to hit and damage values on each attack.

An example that's new to most people is fighters can be good at TWF.

Thanks to Trained Finesse the fighter can be dex based and get double his weapon training bonus on his damage.

Start with 17 dex, and put a fair amount into strength and con. With your damage bonus being increased you can stand not to have a high starting strength. For bonus points you can go mutation warrior to have extra bonus to dex so you have a higher to hit.

Rangers can also do this insanely well once they hit level 10 and start using Instant Enemy. You had to invest all your FE into one type, but suddenly you have a +6 or more on all attacks and damage.

bard 4 \ cavalier 1, battle herald also add a lot of bonuses.

at level 12, you add +6\+6 ALL the time (dervish of dawn= X2 bard boosting), with BAB of -1 from a full one.


it all depend on the buffs you have.
after level 11, with a bard adding good hope and bard song for +5\+5,
a 2 weapon build can easy pass a 2 hander.
critical feats, like bleeding critical, shaken, sicken and more - allow a great offence out put.

also, weapon and shield (scimitar and shield) can add a lot of attacks with bashing finish . and if the party have many front liner, adding a greater bull rush several times a round, with all provoking - generate more total damage than any full attacks.


you are doing no damage at all , with low will saves.
i like better a battle herald , cavalier 4, bard 1.
mount and you take body gard order of the dragon and helpfull as a halfling race

add, blundering defence and you rock and can even do some damage


I was aiming for a blacked curse nature oracle (with a super pet as protector ) and the shaman adding all the fire spells.
Scorching rays and fire blasts with gnome adding some pluses .

That way, if you face demons or devils, don't bother blasting and switch to heaven or healing spirit - while the pet kills.
Its a very versatile build .

Take fort enhencer feat and good con.


well....guided hand have a (+) side....
it's a one ability needed only. and if wisdom is super high - you are a super caster that "can" to hit VERY well and use power attack when needed.

i want to try out a evangalist version of a good weapon god.
glory of animal domain of a super focused wisdom character.
seem a nice option, although the damage will be low.


Echolocation is THE best spell ever. See all invisible .
Air walk.
Freedom of movement .
Death ward.
Bulls a d cats .
Barkskinn


are you sure?
the blade bond "alter the ability" .... so, making sure the basics stay.
if so, it's not half bad option for a rare weapon type .... katana or Falcata.... nice


Can a magus further add abilities to his bonded weapon with arcane pool (keen etc ) ?


For 3/4 bab that aren't rogue it's wrong to not 2 hander. Too low to hit,
War priest might pull it off


also, consider this build : Ranger with 1 rogue (skulking slayer).
weapon and shield.
shield and scimitar here is level 12:
1: 2 weapon fighting + power attack
2: shield slam
3: : Improved Shield Bash
5: boon companion
6: shield master
7: imp bul rush
9: greater bull rush
10: bashing finish
11 (rogue) : enforcer
13: dazing assault

so....
keen scimitar , easy to get, to into flank :

attack your full attack with your scimitar and 1 shield slam.
EVERY attack = dirty trick
EVERY shield slam = bull rush that provoke from your wolf and allies.
EVERY crit = a free slam & bull rush.

not too bad...


2 weapons take some effort but it is amazing.
it need some planning to be better than a 2 hander but ... it have many advantage .

1. be a ranger . free feats that ignore dex . the high str will add a lot of damage .
2. take as many riders on your attacks . below is a long list (and feel free to add more ideas - i love it.
3. have a decent plan B, to when you move or foe have high DR. (quick draw or a double weapon to be used 2 hander, rapid shot for throwing etc.

addons:
1 level of rogue can add a lot of surpluses:
Rake = free intimidate every attack
Thug with enforcer feat add auto frighten (and later, sicken).
skulking slayer (my favorite) add free dirty tricks.
a ranger 6 \Rogue 4 add MANY options, -4 to hit, no AOO and more.

Criticals :
triping strike, dirty trick on criticals, bleeding critical and more .
all stack for a high debuffs.


666bender wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

um... CHA 7 can do a lot still. Getting diplomacy over to int based or wis based is fairly easy.

Shadows need to be able to reach, hit, and have you fail the save to be a threat. So if that's not likely to happen then it's not really a danger.

*haven't looked at any builds to know if they do cover these or not.

No save for shadow...

Also, simple lol 1 spell that do 1d6+5 half with a save , will drop you .

Before you were able to get the cords , how did you even walk? Your armor and weapon are more than what you carry a not to mention a bag with food


Chess Pwn wrote:

um... CHA 7 can do a lot still. Getting diplomacy over to int based or wis based is fairly easy.

Shadows need to be able to reach, hit, and have you fail the save to be a threat. So if that's not likely to happen then it's not really a danger.

*haven't looked at any builds to know if they do cover these or not.

No save for shadow...

Also, simple lol 1 spell that do 1d6+5 half with a save , will drop you .


nennafir wrote:
666bender wrote:


EVERY character have a soft spot. let it shine in most fights, a character who master 1 aspect, will have flows in several other fields.

Maybe... but there are some PFS-legal characters who come pretty damn close to being able to do everything well. I can--and have :D posted recently if you search my posts--make a 7th level character who does a variety of damage types (adamantine, cold iron, etc on demand), has 101 hit points, does 45 damage a round, can attack either ranged or melee, has good AC, has tremorsense on demand so they don't worry about invisible enemies, and has saves of (for a level 7 character) Fort 17 Reflex 14 Will 13. Oh, and they only have 2 maxed skills (perception because you roll it all the time and UMD because that lets you do anything you couldn't otherwise do) but they have a sage familiar who can make any knowledge check with a pretty good bonus.

I'm just saying... some characters really can do almost everything, and do it well.

Saw your build , cha 7 = all non combat situations you sit aside and no gaurd let's you in a town easy.

Str 7 means a single shadow kills you.

All characters have soft spots especially extreme ones


Cavall wrote:

I put up about a year ago a great swashbuckler intimidation build with a skill unlock. Inspired blade works well.

It's a total terror fest with massive fear effects and panic running wild.

I'd look it up but you're already using the search.

I was considering a swashbuckler with rake. Rogue.

The (+) gained with rake will auto panic any foe


Saldiven wrote:
666bender wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
666bender wrote:

but, where is the -12 to hit the character comes from ?

Oh, that's what you wanted.

First, from Mouser, starting at level 1, if you are in an enemy's square, that enemy takes a -4 to hit penalty (untyped) on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks against the Mouser.

Then, from Vexing Dodger, if you are climbing an opponent, that opponent takes a penalty (untyped) equal to the number of Sneak Attack dice the rogue has to attacks made against the Vexing Dodger.

Lastly, from Unchained Rogue is the Debilitating Injury modifier after hitting with Sneak Attack. After hitting a target with a Sneak Attack, you can choose the "Disoriented" effect, which results in a -4 to hit penalty against the rogue.

The character is Mouser 1/Vexing Dodger 8. He has 4 sneak attack dice. So, it's -4 from Mouser, -4 from 'Dodger, and -4 from Disoriented.

What's fun is that this is in a party that has an Intimidate build Inquisitor with a Cruel weapon and the Inflict Pain spell. There have been times when everything has been stacked on a boss, that boss has a -20 to hit the goblin climbing all over him :P

you read it wrong ....

"While the mouser is within her foe's space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser"

-4 to all attacks that are NOT MADE AGAINST THE MOUSER"

Oops.

Honestly, though, that's even better. A -8 to hit modifier is plenty; being able to give a -4 to hit against all his allies in melee is better than another -4 to hit him.

Will boosts of climbing auto win the cmd check ?


Saldiven wrote:
666bender wrote:

but, where is the -12 to hit the character comes from ?

Oh, that's what you wanted.

First, from Mouser, starting at level 1, if you are in an enemy's square, that enemy takes a -4 to hit penalty (untyped) on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks against the Mouser.

Then, from Vexing Dodger, if you are climbing an opponent, that opponent takes a penalty (untyped) equal to the number of Sneak Attack dice the rogue has to attacks made against the Vexing Dodger.

Lastly, from Unchained Rogue is the Debilitating Injury modifier after hitting with Sneak Attack. After hitting a target with a Sneak Attack, you can choose the "Disoriented" effect, which results in a -4 to hit penalty against the rogue.

The character is Mouser 1/Vexing Dodger 8. He has 4 sneak attack dice. So, it's -4 from Mouser, -4 from 'Dodger, and -4 from Disoriented.

What's fun is that this is in a party that has an Intimidate build Inquisitor with a Cruel weapon and the Inflict Pain spell. There have been times when everything has been stacked on a boss, that boss has a -20 to hit the goblin climbing all over him :P

you read it wrong ....

"While the mouser is within her foe's space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser"

-4 to all attacks that are NOT MADE AGAINST THE MOUSER"


666bender wrote:
My Self wrote:
-4 from Mouser's deeds, being in the same square. -2 to general AC from the Bewildered Debilitating Injury, -2 for self-specific Bewildering Injury. Offensive Defense Rogue Talent gives +1 AC per Sneak Attack die against the target, which, as an 8th level Rogue, would be 4d6, or +4 AC. Totals up to about +12 effective AC vs that target.

sadly for you, Unchained Rogue CANT take Offensive Defense.... it's off the list.

and "While the mouser is within her foe's space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser,"
the -4 is ONLY Vs OTHERS.

but it's a great concept never the less.

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