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Pathfinder Society Member. 1,770 posts (1,772 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.


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another Q:
the Belt give constrict, what is added to the STR bonus?
1) power attack?
2) bard boosting?
3) good hope?
4) other
5) non

Belt, Anaconda’s Coils wrote:

The wearer gains a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +2 competence bonus on grapple combat maneuver checks. Treat the enhancement bonus to Strength as temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn. In addition, the belt grants the wearer the constrict ability for 1d6 points of damage plus the wearer’s Strength modifier.

is the +2 competence bonus on grapple combat maneuver checks. for CMB? CMD? BOTH?

Is pounce (with dragon style) worth it , vs 2 more attacks, 2 mkre chances to daze- but no pouncer.


The real q is what action is the rapid geapple? If its maintain than it should trigger more attacka, if not than no.

what action is the bite attack ? can i use it twice (greater & rapid grapple ).

Animal Fury (Ex)
Benefit: While raging, the barbarian gains a bite attack. If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at the barbarian's full base attack bonus –5. If the bite hits, it deals 1d4 points of damage (assuming the barbarian is Medium; 1d3 points of damage if Small) plus half the barbarian's Strength modifier. A barbarian can make a bite attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a grapple. This attack is resolved before the grapple check is made. If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made by the barbarian against the target this round are at a +2 bonus.

for barbarian, lvl 13 (1 dip fighter, 1 dip oracle).
i got a dilemma .
i took grapple (all the way to rapid grapple).
i have amulet of mighty fists +3.

so, i plan to atttack 4 attack of unarmed (unless foe has HUGE DR) and secondary several natural attacks.
the dilemma is simple.
Dm dont allow any trait that add bite, but he does allow the rage powers.

full beast totem will add 2 claws (1d8+16 as off hands) & 3 AC & POUNCE (with dragon totem) .

lessor dragon blood line + lessor fiend totem + animal fury
will add 4 attack (1d8+16,1d4+16,1d6+16X2) to the 4 unarmed.
no pounce, no ac boost (that is meaningless on barbarian)
also, animal fury add a big free bites on grapples. nice.
style feat (from the fighter) can be boar (more damage), dragon (charge), crane (defence) .

which will prove more effective in the long run ?

lets focus the dilemma here.
all builds in my head lead to the same place other than a few variables.
the "same" feats are put aside, so the comparison will be on the difference.

option 1:
full all out grapple.
1) grabbing style
2) rapid grapple
3)raging vitality.
4) dazing assault
no stalwart or beast totem for DR, the only layer of defense is raging vitality.

option 2:
1) crane style
2) diehard
3) stalwart
4) imp stalwart
it's a all out DR master with greater grapple and power attack.
it's a tank but a bit boring fights.

option 3:
1) Dragon style
2) rapid grapple
3) 2*extra rages and lose reckless abandon (a bit less to hit) but
take the whole beast totem chain.
i pounce.
i got claw-claw-bite OR imp unarmed strikes or 2 handed sword.
i got rapid grapples .
i lack ANY feat for defenses like diehard, raging vitality etc. risky a bit.
no dazing assault.

option 1 Vs 2 Vs 3 ?

Also, any foe huge and up will be immune to your tricks (or... Flying...)

i already start at level 13, so i get rage cycle "out of the box" with a oracle level.
saves is indeed nifty.
i think it would be fate's favortie and bred for war.

i agree , +2 to sunder is amazing, but i think i can get high enough.
the +1 as luck bonus is like 1.5 feats.

now traits . we gain 1.
i can choose either :
1) fate's favorite > to boost it further, also makes the single divine favor form the 1 dip of oracle worth it,

2) bred for war > as i am a grapple build that also sundering - the +1 to all CMB is rare.

3) a trait for gaining the missed bite attack. useful if i was to take beast totem - but i doubt i shall.

another Q:
as 1/2 orc i can choose to boost the saves via superstitious FCB or take HP.

is +3 to all saves better or worse than 9 HP ?

another Trait Q :
bred for war VS fate's favorite.

+1 to CMB (very rare bonus...) (grapple & sunder)
+1 to all 3 saves and minor boost to divine favor.

1/2 orc get great stuff!

i already took shaman's apprentice and city raised.

not - to replace orc's ferocity, there are 3 great options.
+1 (2) to ALL saves = 2 traits. (the racial and the normal)
+3 to sunder & +1 to all manuevers (bred for war + below)
a free, nice Bite.... goes VERY well with 2 claws \ a reach weapon.

• Gatecrasher Many half-orcs revel in acts of wanton destruction. Half-orcs with this racial trait gain a +2 racial bonus on Strength checks to break objects and on sunder combat maneuverchecks. This racial trait replaces orc ferocity.
• Sacred Tattoo Many half-orcs decorate themselves with tattoos, piercings, and ritual scarification, which they consider sacred markings. Half-orcs with this racial trait gain a +1 luck bonus on all saving throws. This racial trait replaces orc ferocity.
• Toothy Some half-orcs' tusks are large and sharp, granting a bite attack. This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d4 points of piercing damage. This racial trait replaces orc ferocity.

i have. sadly, Brawlers aren't allowed in our game , as are slayers.
DM feel the eliminate core class existence - so he ban them .

i tend to agree. thank you all.

i got some dilemma about my new barbarian, and also need to make sure the stuff i have on paper will be as good as it seem in theory.
the core build is the same, there are other options i am in a dilemma with.

here are the basics - that are the same in all builds (unless you enlighten me.... )
1/2 orc.
racial trait for a bite and the +1 luck to saves.
trait = fate's favorite (now +2 to saves)
no item buying only what is found.
level 9 = oracle (rage cycle is... supreme! )
level 2 = unarmed fighter (2 feats and a style of choice.)
game start at level 13.

lvl 1 : Barbarian 1 : Power attack & endurance
lvl 2: fighter1 : imp unarmed strike & style feat (change with options)
lvl 3: Barbarian 2 : imp. sunder & superstitious
lvl 5: Barbarian 4 : imp grapple & witch hunter
lvl 7:Barbarian 6 : grt grapple & spell sunder (yei)
lvl 9:oracle 1 : rage cycle, feat ????
lvl 10: Barbarian 8 : rage power ????
lvl 11:Barbarian 9 feat ????
lvl 12:Barbarian 10 rage power ????
lvl 13:Barbarian 11 feat ????

now the options:

the mega grappler:

the fighter's style feat = grabbing style.
lvl 9 = feat = raging vitality
lvl 10 = rage power = strength surge
lvl 11 = feat = rapid grapple
lvl 12 = rage power = Raging Grappler
lvl 13 = feat = Lunge
lvl 14 = age power = Reckless abandon

---rage cycle + str surge + str 26 while raging = HUGE cmb.
--- grabbing style offer no -4, no dex lose - i can delay for the enemy holding noting but a mithral chain. then grapple > pin > str surge tie up in 1 round.
--- i still have DR of 5-6
--- no grapple is valid? i spell sunder the magic around OR just power attack for more then decent DPR.
--- huge CMB, great to hits.
--- raging vitality offer big hp.
--- raging grappler is great.
--- no DR boosters.
--- a little bit dip into the grapple zone.

the Sherman:

the fighter's style feat = crane style.
lvl 9 = feat = die hard
lvl 10 = age power = strength surge
lvl 11 = feat = stalwart
lvl 12 = age power = Raging Grappler OR savage dirty trick
lvl 13 = feat = imp stalwart
lvl 14 = age power = come&get me
lvl 15 = feat = reflexes. ( or take this instead of imp sunder)

--- DR is now 5 \ 13 when i attack on defence.
--- a single feat (bolstering something) will X2 the DR 1\round
--- it's a heavy tank - big DR but also some grapples to pin a foe down.
--- it wont role the grapple field like option #1, no lunge, no rapid grapple etc but it offer a much heavier defense build .
--- it can still sunder magic well enough with reach weapons and grapple well enough with greater grapple.
--- come and get me CAN ne nice.

the rager:

the fighter's style feat = dragon style.
lvl 9 = feat = extra rage power - beast totem 1
lvl 10 = rage power = strength surge
lvl 11 = feat = extra rage power - beast totem 2
lvl 12 = rage power = beast totem 3
lvl 13 = feat = raging vitality OR rapid Grappler OR Lunge
lvl 14 = rage power = Raging Grappler rage power
lvl 15 = feat = raging vitality OR rapid Grappler OR Lunge

--- as glass cannon as a barbarian gets... DR = 5, lower AC.
--- Pounce, X2 claws, bite and more armor class.
--- dragon totem & pounce = charger machine.
--- can grapple well, with rapid grapples. not as good but well.
--- no defenses is a bit of an issue - i will kill fast but suffer fast.

i CAN skip beast totem for dragon totem for a fix +6 DR and alter the style feat for something else.

Tend to agree. Got some build dillemas- i ooen a new thread.

Ranger 3 is accually not bad...
Trap finding, 2 claws (with orc bite and rage gore, its a plenty), skills, bab... 1favorite enemy...

Trap finding isnt amazing, but it is usefull....
Uraban ranger 3 is nice as well.
Thing is avout a rogue, is that it adds evasion - with barbarian saves -/its a lot...

barbarian X \ oracle 1 .
rogue 2 will add:
--- trap finding (or auto frighten effect instead of shaken )
--- sneak 1d6
--- skills
--- a rogue power (like, no AOO after a sneak).
--- and most important - evasion. with the nice saves i get - it add a nice layer of defense.

it cost:
1 BAB (that was also lost from oracle)
slower rage progression.

Laat idea, drop the 2 grapple feats, take ootion #2 (pounce) and the 2 above feats use for enforcer and savage dirty trick.
Dip 1 into thug rogue (althougb bab is now -2).
Pounce- imp unarmed strike once, enforcer trigger, shaken is applied. Dirty trick and foe is panicked. And you still have another attack and the one of haste.

Option 1 is the best grappler ever,
Str surge will boost the cmb/ cmd.
Grabbing style will allow holding a rope ffor a single round hog tie.

2 is classic pounce

3- is dr 14, not 6.a true tank

level 13, 14 soon.
i am trying a barbarian.
will grab 1 oracle level ( rage cycle, free 10' move, some spells.)
and i also wonder what else to dip 1-2 more levels.
Come and get me is less appealing in my eyes - yes it does great damage - but might kill me....

here is what i know so far : (it aint close - if any one has great tips - i am buying) - no items buying or trading.
1/2 orc
1- fighter unarmed - imp unarmed strike, a style feat (see below), endurance (free - orc) - power attack.
2- barb 1 .
3- barb 2 imp sunder, superstitious
5- barb 4 imp. grapple, witch hunter
7 - barb 6 greater grapple, spell sunder
9 - oracle 1 ???????? feat
10 - barb 8 - str surge
11- ???????? feat
12 - barb 10 - rage power
13 - ???????? feat

------------------ here are the options :
3 feats, 1 style, 1 rage power
1) style feat = grabbing style, open feats = rapid grapple + dazing assault + extra rage power = raging grapple.
lvl 12 rage power is the reckless abandon.

2)style = crane.
feats : 2* extra rage + dazing assault.
rage powers : either a full totem (beast ? spirit ? )
or - effect feats, like savage dirty trick, knock-down etc.

3) crane style.
feats : die hard, stalwart, imp stalwart.
rage power = reckless abandon or savage dirty trick or other?
lvl 14> come and get me (as risky as it is..... )

4) lose the fighter level. take 2 ranger - for claws . take fiend totem for gore, take 1/2 orc bite.
attack 4 attacks with natural weapons. not bad.

mount move to a charging position than we both charge...

melee build + melee \ debuffer AC hassome options.

first : expertise + pack flanking is a MUST. you both need the to hits.
broken wing gambit = ultimate defense \ vengeance.

you need power attack and a reach weapon.

pet need to choose 1-2 of the following : grapple \ trip \ bull rush
trip = wolf
grapple = grab ability
bull rush = he push - you AOO

halfling mounted combat (cavalier \ ranger \ barbarian \ oracle - not decided yet)
on a Gecko or bat (thank you Furian).
if i can get, somehow, a way to gain move actions on the mount as swift actions.... this would be amazing - and allow a position way .

i think Grace spell would work (on oracle build) - what else?

1) if an item give move action as a swift action than you can position prior the charge
2) wheeling charge offer 90 degree turn

Devilkiller wrote:

I've enjoyed Raging Grappler a lot.

I seem to recall that your DM doesn't allow magic item purchases. Otherwise a Gore attack can be gained from Helm of the Mammoth Lords and Lesser Beast Totem could let you avoid the 2 level Ranger dip. A Monk, Brawler, or Fighter dip could help your grappling or open up some Style feats.

ye, raging grappler seem like a great package. more actions into a maneuver is what making it's worth the trade and lose of attacking.

indeed, DM give items, but we cant buy or create.
it makes the game a lot better in our eyes, as it bring "magic" into items. you appreciate your findings.

chaoseffect wrote:

Beast Totem also gives claws which is great if you are going natural weapon based or even if you aren't in the long run; two attacks at full BAB before level 6 can be quite handy and you are always armed should it be necessary. Extra AC from the second power is also nice.

YES , but it will block any other totem line - and, if i wont go all the way to pounce it's a waste...

chaoseffect wrote:

Dragon Totem is nice if you don't want Beast as it gives a total of 6 DR, a limited fly speed, and good energy resistance to one element of your choice on top of a few more minor benefits. The downside there is that it has two other bleh Rage Power prerequisites so it is a 5 power long chain.

The Elemental Bloodline tree is mostly meh, but can end with a fly speed of 60 for you.

Good advice.

chaoseffect wrote:

Reckless Abandon for a scaling attack roll bonus; just enough to off set the penalties from Power Attack, but not good if you care about AC.

Boar's Charge/Disemboweling Tusks are pretty sweet if you have a Gore attack or are planning on getting one via Rage Powers.

need to read and see where they fit.

as for + to hit - i dont think a STR barb. need a boost...

Snowblind wrote:
Witch hunter for moar damage?

i am gonna grab it any how ... as it's a must pre-req for the amazing spell sunder.

a single attacker has a good bonus for penetration DR easy.
after level 9 you gain a free attack any how.

a 3+ attacker pet - will gain TON from precise strike. add amulet of lighting elemental and your tiger is now 5*(+2d6).... on a charge .

no unchained, we dont like it - to mix and chaos.

Auspicious Mark > is bardic like. adding some to save \ last to hit. not bad.

Celestial Totem, Lesser > can add the missing HP lost fro saved healings. (Superstition )

Fiend Totem, Lesser > i am 1/2 orc, with a bite. if i dip 2 into a ranger i would be able to claw,claw,bite gore all at level 4!
thats.... not bad.....

Intimidating Glare > cause not losing a standard is never bad.

Raging Grappler (Ex) > free prone isnt bad.

Sunder Enchantment > depends, but might be REALLY nice.

theres a VERY long list but all people ever look at are the spell sunder \ Beast Totem trees.
i for one, hate Superstition . but am forced to take it as i LOVE spell sunder - the best addon power a barbarian has.

as for beast totem tree? sorry. not convinced.
it's one thing if i start a level 15 barb. but going from level 1? and take a tree that will only effect at level 10 ? (12 as i dip 2) - sorry..

as i will be able to rage cycle after level 9 - Strength Surge is a must.

savage dirty tricks seem decent.

what else?

hunters are great BUT need to focus, as the non team feats are few.
1) what is the propose of the mount?
-- mount
-- bodyguard
-- Damage
-- debuffer (bull rush \ trip \ grapple)
2) do you melee? mounted combat? maneuvers?

wolves are great - as all cities will allow them in.
carry companion is a must spell.
undersized mount will allow more mounted options.

fly is a 3D normal rules.
you fly and smack a foe from above? he cant move (there's a floor), simple - he falls prone.
you got grt bull rush?
he is also provoking an AOO.

i used this tactic on me cavalier -with level 11 free bull rush - he rode a griffon - round 1 took position above all, than soared down.

it's also nice on a ranger on a roc.

maybe even working on a hunter.

true, but i dislike the beast totem.
1) claws suck. i like unarmed not cause of effective - cause in real life no melee WILL EVER NOT learn it. it's basic combat training.
and.... i love grapples. its a lot like trip. when focused upon - it work sometimes - but when it does... and - its a solid plan for shutting down casters. you sunder their freedom of movement, than hug them to sleep.

2) natural AC is nice. i agree. but not worth the 2 feats.

3) yes, pounce add a lot of theory damage. in real game?
-- not all places fit a charge (but dragon style will assist here).
-- you don't always want to leave formation.
-- yes, more damage is fun - but 3 rage powers? thats a long path to walk...

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
BadBird wrote:

A Monk 8 with Barkskin and typical ability scores and item bonuses and so on is going to be at something like 25AC.

That seems REALLY low. My PFS monk has a 27AC at 4, and that's with an 18 Con to qualify for Fast Drinker.

Even a STR monk with starting 14 dex/wis will be considerably higher by 8. 25 with mage armor/barkskin only (Dodge feat). Then +2 Wis headband, jingasa, ioun stone, +1 ring will put him up at 29AC without trying very hard.

I will say - Snake Style is great against touch attacks. While a monk's touch AC is decent (about the only class where that's true), the above STR monk's would be just 21.

not in our games...

as items are found - never created nor bought.
there is no way i can get 50% of that list.
ring +1 for sure.
+2 wis ? maybe. as if found i will have to fight over it with the cleric.
jingasa, ioun stone >>> no way.

only 2 lvl 1 cavalier from penitence order.
rest are joining a grapple.

my barbarian is a menace.
after level 9, with STR surge and rage cycle (1 dip into oracle).
i can have supreme CMB or CMD as needed.
i took 1 dip into grabbing style via unarmed fighter dip 1.
so... i hold a thick chain from admentite in 1 hand and wait the foe to come to me.
than i grapple > grt grapple > rapid grapple in 1 round :
grapple > pin > hog tied and be done with.
with rage cycle, rage for str and the feats my CMB is decent.

i wont grapple a titan like a lore warden - but i can do nicely.

i also had a lore warden X \ maneuver master monk 2 that had HUGE CMB.
the FCB went into boosting the CMD so if he grabbed you - you were doomed.

lastly i played a druid with 1 dip into monk.
with grab, size, str boost , feats and concstrict.... you role

Dan E wrote:

Or you could just pin it and let the rest of the party bash the stuffing out of it.

Of all the manoeuvres grappling best takes advantage of action economy. One standard action of a party member = one standard action of a BBEG = win.

not really.

it works like that Vs humans with a songle, BIG sword.
Vs monsters? the monster just full attack you into oblivion.

oh! i missed that part!
that helps narrow it down.....
the Boar Shred will wait a dip into monk of styles on a ranger \ fighter.
for my barb. it seem like :

Crane Style
drgon style if i plan on charging.
Grabbing Style that is REALLY nice for a hog tie \ grab with weapon.
Panther Style risky yet nice.

by rules? no.
only way are :
1) beast rider
2) 1/2 orc with a feat for it
3) MD allow to expand the list .

lemeres wrote:
666bender wrote:

i know SOhei have armors.... but light armor with DEX of 14 is like going naked...

as for items ? i agree, but we cant buy or create items in our games - it has magical gear ofc, but we get what we find...
so, i MIGHT find those items, or i might not.
but a sohei is a great one with out them as well... sohei and barbarian are the 2 main options i think of.

Better than dex 14/wis 14. Also, better for melee prior to some item/feat later on than str 10/dex 18/wis 18.

Also, barbarians are SO well known for their AC at early levels, right?They might run around in a breastplate, but they might as well have a chainshirt when they are raging. And even with invulnerable rager, DR 1 or 2 is mostly a nice little bonus, not something to bet too much on.

Now, I will give you your item situation. I would say it is still fairly even (I mostly saw the gloves as a substitute for furious, and both could grab brawling).


low levels is a tactical game.
reach and HP pools.

BadBird wrote:
666bender wrote:

1) quick draw shield still need a move action..

2) i agree. monks get more without armor, but low AC if STR focused.
a barbarian get get super AC or super DR

The Quick Draw feat means switching a quickdraw light shield on and off is a free action.

Strength-based Monks aren't low AC once their bonuses start to come online. An 8th level Monk (+2AC,+Dodge) with Barkskin (+3) and decent wisdom (+3/4) might as well be wearing full-plate (Bracers of Armor = normal armor enhancement). If you cross Crane Style with it (+4/6), it's more like plate armor with an enhanced shield.

the quickdraw shield is nice one.

BadBird wrote:
666bender wrote:

1) quick draw shield still need a move action..

2) i agree. monks get more without armor, but low AC if STR focused.
a barbarian get get super AC or super DR

The Quick Draw feat means switching a quickdraw light shield on and off is a free action.

Strength-based Monks aren't low AC once their bonuses start to come online. An 8th level Monk (+2AC,+Dodge) with Barkskin (+3) and decent wisdom (+3/4) might as well be wearing full-plate (Bracers of Armor = normal armor enhancement). If you cross Crane Style with it (+4/6), it's more like plate armor with an enhanced shield.

eliminate variables.

a full plate user CAN also use crane style and dodge...
but snake style might offer a unique deflect 1/round.

well... crane style doesnt need a free hand, only the rest of the chain...

Snapping Turtle Clutch - need a hand for the grab but one can free a ahnd ...freely...

Devilkiller wrote:

Barbarian - High HP and DR are a good combination. Are you sure you want to use unarmed strikes rather than natural attacks though? If so is it to trigger Enforcer or for some other reason?

Monk - The Monk's bonus feats can be helpful. If you're worried about AC you could consider the Flowing Monk to debuff enemies with Trip and sicken.

as barb. i wont attack with unarmed all the times... but its a nice feel to beat a foe in bare hands while he use a weapon...

BadBird wrote:

Don't overestimate the issue of going unarmored - it's not as big a difference as it seems. Enchanting armor costs the same amount as Bracers of Armor, so the difference comes down to base armor level. A mithril breastplate is 6AC. A Monk with 14 WIS, a +2WIS headband, and the Dodge feat has 4AC, and gets +1AC for every 4 levels.

A level 8 Dual Talent Human Monk who starts with 16 WIS, buys a +2WIS headband, and takes Dodge -> Crane Style -> Crane Wing to use with a two-handed temple sword (switching to one-hand to defend) has a 5AC 'armor' with a +5/7 dodge bonus. Throw in the fact that the Monk can cast Barkskin with Ki for a free +4 natural armor and they're doing quite well.

The Sohei can also really abuse their ability to wear armor by taking the Quick Draw feat and picking up a quickdraw light shield. They can flurry with two hands on a weapon (no shield to stop flurry), then switch their shield on to defend, then switch it off to two-hand attack again...

1) quick draw shield still need a move action..

2) i agree. monks get more without armor, but low AC if STR focused.
a barbarian get get super AC or super DR

but missed the barkskin trick. nice.

ranmyaku262 wrote:
666bender wrote:

my next character in the up coming game will be a huge (7 feet) 1/2 orc, str based melee.

now, i narrowed the list to 2 classes, ine is barbarian invulnerable rager, with a spplash of unarmed fighter .

the other is a monk - Sohei (so i can also flurry with spears) or another.
but.... monks with str have severe survival issues. no armor, d8 hp, yes the saves will be nice but...

a barbarian, with unarmed strike even, will attack less a round - but will do enough DPR, and huge DR / HP.

any tips?

Barbarian unarmed would mix better with the brawler class or the martial artist monk (No restriction on alignment). Unarmed fighter isn't amazing in my opinion.

I guess the question is what exactly do you want to do? Do you want to wield spears? Unarmed Strikes? or something else. I can make numerous suggestions but main part is first determining what kind of flavor you're going for with the build or what you want to focus.

the fighter is adding 2 amazing tricks.

1) free imp unarmed strike
2) free ANY no pre-requirements style feat. ANY.... it open a lot of nice stuff.

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