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i agree, and i will consider it.
but with bard + flank + 1 buff spell i suppose to still hit no ?
any how, its power attack Vs summon feat Vs the grapple long line of feats.

nice build! mine is close...
we cant get item boosting items, even as levels go. DM hates them :)
he keep the monster at our level thoug, so the low magic is not bad.
my abilities are:
16,13,14,10,17,10 at level 5
got 2 only magical items, scimitar +1 and boots of spider climb that work on wild shape.
we cant take item creation feats other than scrolls or potions.
i do well, other than WORSE AC ever, so summon is a good idea.

feats are: school focus, augument summon, scribe scrolls (we got no healer so i craft healing scrolls) ,and natural spell
plans ahead:
level 7 : planar wild shape
level 9: power attack & vital strike for the ability to be a killer in melee as well with DR etc.
level 11 : divinve interferance or supirior summon.

animal companion is a Trex, with toughness, power attack and now i need to choose a feat for levrl 5, thinking of improve bull rush ?

indeed. 1d3 of those youngs > the orginal!

i must say, the ability to bring the young templete as standard action with temp HP is.... making summoning as shaman the stringest summon in the game...
look : a forth level spell: Young Ankylosaurus (dinosaur)
hp: 82 (with augument summon and temp hp)
saves 10/9/4
ac: 23
to hit: (with augument) = +15 or +13 with power attack
damage : 2d8+18 with DC 21 stun
large size
can also bull rush and overrun with CMB of +16

its as deadlyas a character...
also, the young velociraptor is DEADLY unless enemy got DR

adding templete to summoing, made me wonder how to calculate damage :
1d12 that increase in size turn into ?
3d6 that increase?
3d6 that decrese ?

i know a summoned cant use the ability to summon more.
what about summon via spell? a SATYR got summon monster 3.... can he use it ?

i respect Treantmonk's greatly, but he show 2 builds:
melee and caster - suprem focus.
a druid got a third option: the hybrid.

using: al.html#_anthropomorphic-animal

i can make my trex be a humanoid.
he already got int of 3, so he can learn "weapon proficiency" letting him fight, with a bith (-5) and a great axe together?

can this be done>?

i like to make the best of druids - as i see them that mean to fill whatever gaps are missing.
so, i plan on casting when i have spells and when out - jump into the fray.
i know i wont be "best" role but the ability to do both weill make me the "best", acting always in all events.

as for scribe scrolls - it is a must since we got no healer i need to craft haeling scrolls .

as for the guides - they are great BUT old - not regurding all the options now available for druids.

ok, its a saurian druid.
got 1 "feat hole" :
scribe scroll + meta magic feat (rime spell?)
power attack
nautral spell

change the meta fea with team feat.

the trex will have:
power att
bull rush OR a team feat.

so, its Rime spell for a great Frostbite debuff or 1 team feat .

Anti life is 10 feet around caster. But if caster is huge ? He is partly protected only ?

Level 5.
House roles- non really- can't buy items or craft other than scribe scrolls.
What I meant - with clerics, do melee and cast will probably mean you have medium abilities only.
22 points buy, can't have lower than 10, I prefer humans.
Saurian Druid have severe AC problams - That will only be fixed at level 7 with DR of celectial.
Clerics : can they be a good warrier caster without tanking abilities too much?
Oracle - looks great at first - but will lackany crucial spells like restoration.
Rage prophet looks great - but i fear 3 classes hit you in the long run
Thought ?(

group are:
ranger archer
fighter with 2 kukries

the world is low magic and items cant be bought.
i always like to be able to be versatile - melee and casting or melee and maneuvers.
option 1: a melee cleric. war and travel , why? we have no effect removal and teleport. can clerics can still melee and cast the same time?

option 2:
level 2 wild rager & battle oracle >>> rage prophet.
almost a full caster (-3) , extra free attack per round, good will save so - i wont be stuck in rage, OK spells.

option 3: a saurian druid for melee and summoning. its a mix versatile while still able to attack and cast.

lastly, a maneuver god: monk 2\ lore warden X with dip into shadow dancer for best spring attacker ever.

Wild Fighting (Ex): At 2nd level, even when not raging, wild ragers often fight with reckless, savage abandon. A wild rager using the full-attack action can make one extra attack per round at her highest base attack bonus. Until the beginning of her next turn, however, she takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and –4 penalty to AC. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

free attack for -2 even wehn not raging.... its even great for cleric to dip no?

CWheezy wrote:

I guess this is what you do with a lore warden?

** spoiler omitted **...

you missed some great tricks.

felling smash >> ki throw > binding throw =
move, attack once, damage, free trip, 2*AOO, ki throw to position foe, free grapple = 1 standard action
move = greater graple for pin.

opponent is hit 3 times, prone and pinned in 1 round.

last night our barbarian died.
he has saves in the statospher, and DR but the huge gian with improve vital strike made some holes in him.
sadly for the barby, he got hit on a vicious critical - and fell to begetive hit points.
the healer healed but the save was 50% worth amount of heal.
than he droppoed and as the rage ended.... he auto died.
is he normally great? yes. does he have weak spot? ofc, especially when we buff.

Ignitorius wrote:

We're discussing a druid20 casting antilife shell , which has Area "10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you" totally negating an AT LEAST Large monk10/druid10 with Reach at least 10 exactly in what manner ?

That's provided he doesn't for some odd reason choose to go elemental out of pure frustration.

You do realize this is ground for endless debate and DM fiat, but antilife shell isn't an end all, be all spell?

Taking flight and blasting away, or something like that, is still pretty valid for the druid20.

anti life is only 10 feet.... but a natural attack cant penetrate, even with 10000 feet reach.

the hand will be blocked.

putting difficult terrain need to be used wisely.
like, cast the spell that allow you to ignore difficult terrain and than cast in on you...
take feats like imp bull rush to toss enemies back into the difficult terrain.

summoning is a standard action only for mui, saurian fix that problam.

as for spells.... you wrote "by the point you have 5th-level spells, you will gain little more versatility out of casting"

i truly disagree, lets have a look .

level 6:

anti life shell = the druidmonk just cant attack you any more and ... lose the fight. = total win for true druid.

Eagle Aerie: is massive summon

find the path is so great most DM ban it

Wall of Stone: is a great control spell (wall of thrones is better)

stone skin communal = full DR for party

Transport via Plants = teleport

level 7:
changestaff = a free treant is not bad

control weather = masss combat uses.

creeping doom = killing many minions, a feat a druidmonk cant do

heal: yes, druid get it late but its the only healing in combat in the game.

Scrying, Greater: utility

wind walk: all party travel spell

level 8:
earthquake : can kill a small army.

word of recall.

level 9:
shapechange = dragonform = i can flurry as well...

now - the PVP : lets assume they both fight/
a full druid need to either survive round 1 or win initiative. cause a flurry ellosaurous is a killer.
lets assume they both walk in human form.
round 1 - monk\druid will wild shape and walk closer
full druid will wild shape and fly away or enter the floor as earth elemental.

the full druid will pop out of the ground, summon as standard action and disapear again . after several rounds a small army will fight the monkdruid.

well.... i would take a full druid or druid 19/monk 1 any time.
for several reasons:
a lot of spells = a lot of options, life aintt all about combat so more spells allow of combat stuff, like wind walk, plant travel, heal and so much more.

summoning many big meat shields make combat great - i am not sure your monk will wind due to that fact. (see next post).

a druid can still do OK damage (vital strike + behemoth + strong jaw) , yes, i know its 1 attck VS 10000 of the flurry.... but still.

a flurry dinosaurous is.... weird.

Both are meant for Druid with one dip into maneuver master monk, free trip per round :
You can trip instead of attack, let's say you are a form that has grab - that trigger free after attacking, is that mean you trip and grab in one attack?

Tactic 2:
I read the feat ki throw and looked at wild shape options:
There is a plant with reach of 60 feat, or Dino with reach of 20.
You trip a foe and "place" the foe 60 feat away in "stone call spell" you the movement will be double... They will NEVER reach you ....
Legit ?

Moondragon Starshadow wrote:

Well, okay, I normally stick with base druids since I believe the archetypes really hurt the druid player. However, if you are fully intent on playing a Saurian Shaman, you have to remember you access wildshape at level 6 instead of level 4, unless you of course access lizard/dinosaur animals, then it acts like you're level 8 (which of course, you should, since that will give you access to most of the stuff).

So, which lizard/dinosaur is good at grappling? Let's say you take Allosaurus, which gets +GRAB on its bite attack. It also has POUNCE and RAKE, making it a good choice. That's about the only one with GRAB. The downside is that the creature is HUGE size category, meaning you can't really get it inside a lot of places.

Looking at lizards, you could be a giant Chameleon, with a sticky tongue for grab (no damage though).

So, if you want to grapple, you need to wild shape into a creature that has the GRAB ability. That's essentially the Allosaurus, and that's only on one attack, and it requires you to be huge.

OR, you could play a base druid, and at level 6 (same level as a Saurian Shaman) get access to the Dire Tiger, a large cat that has 3 attacks, all with GRAB. It has POUNCE, and at level 8 you get RAKE for 5 attacks on a charge, 3 of which will GRAB the opponent.

So, if you really want to play Saurian Shaman, I'd focus on casting since you +Grab is fairly limited on lizards/dinosaurs. Again, why archetypes for druids mostly suck.

Furthermore, you don't need to "focus" on conjuring. You get the ability to swap out any spell with a summon nature ally. While those are helpful critters, it's not your primary damage dealing like it would be for a summoning wizard. You're usually far better off charging in with a POUNCE ability (and your pet charging with POUNCE as well) and grappling the enemy than wasting a turn summoning a monster. I'd only do it when charging in is really dangerous.

Lastly, if you're playing a low magic world, I'd focus on defensive feats. Dodge, save boosting...

i disagree on archtype being worse,

1. saurian get wild shape at level 4, at level 6 it act's as level 4/8 depend on what you turn into.
2. saurian get to summon as standart action which makes summon so muhch better.
3. i know all druid can summon, but without the feats the summon creatures are only good if used as highest level - with augument summon you can use lower level and be ok .
4. the bonus feats are great.

i agree tiger is supreme, and i will have it only as level 8 (10 for rake) --- but other abilities make it worth it.
(also, the behemoth will arrive later..)

list of grab creatures: as a level 6 :
medium: lizard monitor, snake constrictor
large: crocodile
huge: crocodile saltwater, allosauraus, megatherium (grab and poison)

second level spell give grab to any creatures.
DM allow animal companion type animal as wild shape (its not a template) .
you can use grapple with the feats with any creature....

i agree but... and there is a but :
greater grapple alow 3 things:

1. attack once with vital strike and power attack >> grab >> move action for greater grapple >> opponent is pinned >> redo = win
2.rapid grapple = another one
3. plant with constirct : attack > grab > constrict 2-3 times a round while opponent is pinned.

but i agree summon is more potent as grapple wont work always, and for destryong casters grab wil do.

as for TREX :
build 1:
1. power attack
2. toughness
5. improve bull rush
8. improve natural attack
10. vital strike or awesome blow

build 2:
1. power attack
2. toughness
5. improve unarmed
8. improve grapple
10. greater grapple

1 person marked this as a favorite.

a druid can alsways grapple.
a druid can alsways summon.
a druid cant master the 2 the same time....
i wonder what will aid to better all of us more? augument summoning VS greater grapple?
(*** note DM agree greater grapple can be used at round 1 after grab**(
both can be reached at level 9.
i dont like dipping other class as i am the only full caster and wish to stay at top notch for spells.

i play a saurian druid, in a semi low magic world .
no buying items, no crafting othere than wands or scrolls.
DM give items, but at a slow rate and never "wish list".
how ever - he is a great DM and make sure combat stay balance and never let us fight stuff we can't handle.

the group are:
magus: great damage dealer but selfish, always cast spells on self or damage - never buff others.
bard: buff master that fight with long spear. is here "for the team"
ranger, elf archer : hide behind a puma - to shoot for the kill. nice DPR, and scout master.
a fighter that use critical, perfoemance and 2 kukries. not optimize but holds his own.
and me: a saurian druid, with Trex pet.

my bulid is made for versitility - my goal is to do several things:
1. clsoe the gap for the lack of healer with scribe scrolls of cure light wounds (after combat heals only ... but still...)
2. track master.
3. me and the pet mostly melee - tanking a BBEG alone to give others time to "clean the area" and come for the kill. with planar wild shape
a druid can be great tank.
4. use spells to control the battle field.

my duild:
16 13 14 10 16 10 (22 buy at level 4)
feat planning have 2 options :
option 1:
1. imp. unarmed + imp. grapple
3. scribe scrolls
5. natural spell
7. planar wild shape
9. power attack (bonus) + greater grapple
11. rapid grapple

option 2:
1. conj focus + augument summoing
3. scribe scrolls
5. natural spell
7. planar wild shape
9. power attack (bonus) + vital strike
11. superior summon OR divine intervation

which will prove better?
grapple will allow to pin at round 1 (at least some foes) making them unable to attack.
summon will allow huge meat shield to aid with damage reciveing + vital strike combo with hippo can bring HUGE damage to the table (4d8>>8d8>>16d8 with 1 spell)

Ranger or Druid are nice ..
Summoner with the right eidolon also

Sucky prestige than

Does that mean the prestige levels add new revelations and new rage powers ?
Or only stacking for the level of effect ?

I plan 2-3 options .
Bit I change as game progress. Especially as a Druid that can be all.
Like right now, my Druid started as a grapple god of war, now I take mostly casting healing feats cause we have no healer

I agree. .
Btw - the ultimate tactics is using call lighting - the whirlwind make it storm damage - so nice

Earth Root Boots

Price 8,000 gp; Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Weight 2 lbs.

The longer the wearer of these boots stays in one place—as long as that place is on solid ground—the harder it is to move her from that place. The wearer gains a cumulative +1 circumstance bonus to her CMD (maximum of +10) for each round she does not move from her space.

Construction Requirements

Cost 4,000 gp

Craft Wondrous Item, elemental body I

if you stay foot, you can grapple and no one will be allowed out with up to +10 cmd...


Ascalaphus wrote:
There are boots that grant tremorsense, 5000gp. Since it's a constant effect, they continue functioning during wildshape.

no they dont...... the wording says ON THE GROUND..... not UNDER...

Tremor Boots

Price 10,000 gp; Aura faint divination; CL 5th; Weight 1 lb.

These brown leather boots have a reinforced toe of steel with grooves along the soles, crafted to help the wearer pick up vibrations from the surrounding environment. These boots grant the wearer tremorsense 20 feet as long as he is standing on solid ground.

Ascalaphus wrote:
There are boots that grant tremorsense, 5000gp. Since it's a constant effect, they continue functioning during wildshape.

where from ?

1. a druid using earth glide is bat blind. he lack tremor sense unless he is a cave druid so ... he aint much of a scout seeing nothing.
2. sound cant pass earth. so - he cant alret his friends even if they have messege.
3. if he pop to see there is an auto spot check - and druids are not the best stealth characters.

druids are stringer in places where :
1) there are multi number of fights with little resting between them, making other caster less potent
2) the lower the magic world is the greater they are, since in places you cant buy magical items - and finding them is rarer - the classes that are more versitile become gods.

i play now a saurian level 4 druid, and i disagree they cant be great casters and fighters.
when i play a druid i NEVER max abilities, thatwill make a super druid but in one field. i rather be the 2-3 best fighter AND the 2-3 best caster at the same time. abilities are mostly like : 16 14 14 10 16 10
upping wis as levels grow cause spells > melle at highter levels.
with base of 16, no items, with wild shape you get 20-22 str.
with bull str add 4 more.

a good druid will always learn how to scribe scrolls, to have aces in his sleeves.

every combat i evaluate the area and the fight. i use wild shape to fight, and spells when the timer is over.
memorize is always a combo of battle shape spells like entangle, stone call etc, and pure DR penetrators like produce flame and frost bite.
if we are at a corridor where i cant reach, i summon, mostly a earth elemental - he aint great but hold a flank and he aid (i speak terran) to boost the fighter.
i use aspect of the bear on my TREX - to add maneuvers and use grapple on caster foes.

am i over powered? no. i dont bother or cause pain to the DM, but i can ALWAYS do something.... ALWAYS.

i even took a trait do give me diplomacy and i plan to learn some stealth so i can do stuff of combat (tracking master + scouting + info gather) . all and all - super fun to play.

Marthkus wrote:

Personally I think Human superstitious invulnerable rager pouncing come and get me barbars are more of a problem than druids.

Sure druids do like everything, but everything they do is fair.

yes, barb are powerfull, but also has issues...

when hurt they cant get healed (cause of the super auto save) and they cant stop raging (cause the HP drop will kill them).
it is true, that they are rarley hurt.... but when they do - they die.

Gregory Connolly wrote:

Crossblooded Sorcerer (orc/dragon) 1/ Admixture Wizard 5 is strong, you could easily rock a 12d6+24 point Fireball with the right feats and traits.

Guide 2/ Invulnerable Rager 2/ Unbreakable 2 is good for all your melee needs, bonus points for having a primary bite attack like a tengu, half-orc or tiefling.

Zen Archer 6 is probably the strongest archer.

Mystic Theurge 3 from Cleric 1 or 2 or Oracle 1 and Wizard 1 or 2 or Witch 1 or 2 or Sorcerer 1 early entry are by far the best spellcasters.

Magus 6 with a laser focus on Shocking Grasp will prosper because nobody ever gets a high BAB or 4th level spells.

Ranger 6 or Fighter 6 going for Improved Two Weapon Fighting is strong as well.

Paladin 2/ Oracle 4 can rock the Oradin build very well in this format.

how early can you be as a mystic?

you need at least "Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells."
so its level 7 min

What is the main purpose of the AC ?
Track ? Get a dog
Scout ? Get a bird

Powerfull in what ?
Range ? Damage ? Survival? Best off combat options?
Range - archer fighter or ranger
Melle - Saurian Druid or barbarian
Manuever / lore warden with monk
Of combat - bard
Healer - cleric or life oracle
I am ignoring master summoner cause it's annoying

Comparison / a pouncing level. 11 barbarian will attack 3 times , only 2 will hit .
Great axe ( iconic ?) is 1d12 + 10 (str) + 3 (magic) + 9 power attack it's something like

A Druid with vital strike, one attacking is ( 8d6) + 10 (str) +6 +magic (2)
=46 with trip . One fourth level spell will make it 16d6...and the animal companion is ther
That add another 6d6+20 with one attack (trex)

My lore warden with 2 dip into maneuver master can do a better than pounce :
Move full 30 feet , attack once , trigger felling smash , that trigger trip that has greater trip AOO ( form all) and AOO from another feat.
Than binding throw trigger a free grapple.
So- with a "pounce. " , he attack 3 full BAB attacks, a trip, a grapple and an unarmed strike.
That's .... huGE damage

My marital vital strike Druid never uses pounce and kill fast.
My lore warden either wait for the opponent or spring attack to attack once while enemy attack once, or move- vital strike and felling smash for 2 free AOO and a free grasp me with one standard action...
Many classes can make pounce pale.

full caster should never dip.
take planar wild shape for SR DR etc, if attack reach you.
either keep AC for a standing wall or take domain like fire or glory.

vorpaljesus wrote:


i guess he is a dagger master\scout rouge with some ranger levels?

you lose flurry cause of armor. i think its a poor combo.

Tholomyes wrote:

A Wolf Shaman can get improved trip and greater trip without int 13, and Vicious Stomp doesn't require 13 INT. Granted, a Wolf shaman can only get Improved trip at 9th level, and greater trip at 13th, by which point they're far less useful, but still.

Otherwise, 13 Int isn't terribly hard to get. It's harder for a 15 point buy, but with 20, you could easily have it, though you might have to have a lower Wis, focusing on save-less spells (which I've found is pretty standard for a Battle Druid), and take a minor hit on CON, which is rougher, but having the animal companion can help with survivability.

and... no he cant.... greater trip need minimum of int 13 and the wolf shaman says :

"he must meet the prerequisites for these bonus feats"

wild shape will allow huge reach and AOO.
with feats you can have either greater grapple or trip not both - and the othere via animal abilities.
spells will shape the battlefield from entangleto wall of stone and thorn.
summoning will allow healing and resting periods. especially as a saurian to summon as a fast action.
planar wild shape is the best tank feat ever... DR penetrator, DR giver, SR, resistance.....
plants are now amazing in my eyes.
earth elemental can fight form the floor from total cover.
many many tactics... s littile featS:)

the only probalm a druid has with tripping is he cant get the imp trip\vicious stomp\greater trip...
no int 13, no spare feats.

i would like to play :
oracle of battle or a rage prophet: concept, a mortal that is a demon son but refuse to follow his herritage.

barbarrian tank woth HUGE DR

a combo of lore warden > 2 dip into maneuver master monk > shadpw dancer . spring attacks for maneuver terror.

My Druid is grapple master , free tripper with spells that divide and conquer .
Battle field control at his best .

Great build but I have some improvements :
Manuever master allow extra attack per round ( since there is no flurry in armor )
Binding throw will allow free grapple after a trip


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