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Pathfinder Society Member. 1,275 posts (1,276 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.


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nice build!
i would love to use channel more, sadly they are running our fast: )
especially as we play long fights - little rest adventures.
our DM allow resting, but when we rest and re group - so is the enemy...

so - scroll burning after fights is the best healing we got. channeling is supreme - but limited uses.

BTW - my azata companion, has int of 14, wis of 17 and cha of 20. with my ranks she is a beckon of diplomacy and perform. she scout, detect evil and magic, perform for crowds while i gather information and understand all spoken tongues.

in combat she is either the spell runner - fly in, deliver - fly out.
or my "quicken" free feat. i summon and buff the party while she buff me.
when the main fighter is almost dead - i push him a side - all buffed up and take his place.
also - commune spells are amazing on scrolls - when 2 are cast same round.

i only wish i also had room for spring attacks,


evil gets the nicest treats...
sadly there is no equal for an aasimar.
our group want hold an evil caster.

i agree with the analysis, yes think it work both way - a str of 14 is way enough for a cleric to be better than most melee .

take level 9 : with only 1 round of casting\self buff:
cleric cast divine favor (memorized 2-3 times a day that level) = +4\+4
little helper take out a cheap scroll of bulls' .
swift action - heroism .
the cleric weapon this level is +2 (or he will enchant it for +2...)
no magical gear.

to hit : 6 (bab) + 4 (str) -2 (power att) +2 (magic) +2(heroism)+4 (divine favor) = +16 \ +11
it's not fighter levels, but... it's "wasting" a cheap scroll and a first level spell.
this is as a full caster, with wis of 20 so DC are decent.

i find clerics that use too high str really powerful at low level and cry hard as levels grow and they see my cleric sending a barbarian to hell with plane shift.


Blave wrote:

Skald is definitely not an option. I don't like the class and wouldn't take it even if it was allowed.

@GM_Solspiral: While interesting, most things you suggest are beyond me sources.

@Pendagast: After being brutally slaughered in melee twice already (yes, the cleric already was my second character), I'm not willing to go with a squishy melee character like a Bard.
And Rage Prophets sound interesting but they just don't work. It would be more effctive to just dip a level of barbarian or two on a oracle or cleric than to go rage prophet. Also, they are somewhat squishy, too and their healing lacks behind too much to make up for it.

Unless I go for one of the more whimsical builds like Mystic Theurge, my current favorites would be

- Lion Shaman druid. Focused on summoning kitties.
- Bad touch cleric of Groetus, probablay Madness domain and either chaos or darkness.
- Life and death Oracle. Life mystery, but otherwise focused on necromancy spells with greater spell focus and reach spell. Also summoning for good measure.

bad touch with positive energy is so-so.

a druid a amazing but a poor healer.


after reading the GREAT reach cleric guide, that served a nice solution to the main cleric problem : action economy.
in a perfect condition, when you have 2-3 rounds to prepare a cleric can turn from a caster to melee monster, while taking care of his allies as well.
the other conclusion was a cleric need to melee at lower level and cast at higher.

the only issue i had with that guide, was that it was melee > caster.
while i agree a good cleric is a hybrid, he CAN be caster > melee.

so, how do i plan to action economy to my behalf? with a huge, yet paying invents.

double your actions with a good familiar.

the build, level by level is down, but the idea is to have a familiar early on - turning it to improve one ASAP. that with scribe scrolls (or scroll buying) and glory domain.
i keep no archetype cleric - as evangelist lost the cure that the parties need.

let's see the build:

level 1, human, glory & whatever domains.
25 point by : 14,14,14,10,14,14 (2 more to wisdom) . all lvl poisnts to wisdom .
trait for use magic device and fate's favor.
level 1 :
skill focus (human alternate) knowledge of choice
scribe scrolls
this is a somewhat weak level, the str aint much, the wis aint much, and the long spear aint doing much (1d8+3). one need to bare and look ahead.

level 3:
power attack.
damage is now not too bad. 1d8+6. spells are getting better. but still you arent #1.

level 5: eldritch heritage - arcane familiar - monkey.
now you have free reach spell on all your healing (valent archetype).
monkey has hands, so he can open scrolls and use them .
if you need to fight :
monkey cast bull's on you = +4 str.
you cast prayer = +2 to you,+1 to all -1 to enemy. (or divine favor...) and run in.
a friend fall ? you 5' back, cast heal, and the monkey run to deliver.

level 7: improve familiar
now your friend have invisibility, fly, UMD, high abilities and all he need to really be a tool.

level 8 : another free skill focus - why not.

level 9 : sacred summon for more actions OR quicken spell .

it's 2X actions of spells each round.
totally worth the heavy feat cast.
it's like reach & quicken on most spells!


Paulicus wrote:
I often have my familiar dart out from the bag I keep him in, making a stealth check to avoid the AoOs. You could do the same if there's a turn in a hallway or an object to hide behind (pillar, statue, furniture, or the like).

the entering into wont provoke.... the getting out will: )


VRMH wrote:
You could simply take a Small, rather than a Tiny Familiar.

Mephit sound nice


Tik, Brevick's Quasit Familiar wrote:
666bender wrote:
Tik, Brevick's Quasit Familiar wrote:
"That's why it helps to have Invisibility as an at will spell-like ability!"

true.

other than an imp (i am a good character) what options offer that & hands for UMD?

IMP!?

Please!! I'm a Quasit. I'm way more fun that one of those boring IMPS! They're all about contracts. I don't even know how to read! You should see me blindly activate scrolls. Haven't succeeded with one yet! It's a blast!!

Good-shmood. You'll grow to like me. Master used to be good, too. Now I got him worshiping Rovagug (blessings be upon him). You won't miss being good! Trust me!!

Hehe.... Exactly .


Tik, Brevick's Quasit Familiar wrote:
"That's why it helps to have Invisibility as an at will spell-like ability!"

true.

other than an imp (i am a good character) what options offer that & hands for UMD?


Nefreet wrote:

That actually only applies to Animal Companions.

I believe the feat you're thinking of is Evolved Familiar.

well.... no int of 13.... its for my cleric character.


familiar that is tiny has reach of 0. he can touch to deliver a spell on a character, how does he do it?
can he do it while the character provide cover from the foe in front of him - so he wont provoke?


VRMH wrote:

Seems like you have your options all thought out - so what exactly is the question here?

(also: take a look at the Valet archetype for familiars.)

Q's are:

1)) item Vs familiar?
2) improved worth 3 feats?
3)which of the familiars to take?


i play a cleric.
lvl 9.
heroism & trade domain.
caster > melee, although, as we play long adventures - running our of spells is something that happens, so some times i fight more than i want.
20% of spells = heal and utility
20% of the time = fighting
rest = casting, summoning etc.

i am taking eldritch heritage, at first i was dead set on a bonded item - but after reading the improved familiars... it got me thinking. i just love the idea and utility both option offer.

why take a bonded item?
1) a free, extra spell per day, that i don't have to memorize pre-hand. this is better for a cleric than it is for a wizard, and CAN save our lives infinite times - yet it's once per day only.
2) the ability to enchant a single item, in a world where items cant be bought or created is a big thing. take a simple +10 to a skill for example.

why not take it?
1) a familiar double your actions per round.
2) the "bond" can shut you down - without the item you cant really cast spell.

why take a familiar?
1) a good familiar (see below), can use items. like scrolls and wands. hence doubling your actions per round. (first level spells)
2) super scout, super sensor (darkvision, detect evil constant etc.)
3)it's just cool .
4)help with touching \ healing the party.

why not take a familiar?
1) we got many pets :)
2) the extra "floating" spell from the arcane item is really hard to let go.
3) it cost another feat (i will take improve one ).

great options for familiars:

angel-cassisian..
1) can shape change as a helmet, dove or small size angel that got hands, hence, can use items.
2) amazing constant detection spells.
3) can "appear" as a helmet, as if "hiding".
4) can speak to any creature
5) fly, DR, immunitiy = can survive
6) perfect memory = nice to have .
7) charisma only of 10, will make use magic device hard.

azata-lyrakien..
1) flying, tiny = good move
2) great sensors. (detect evil, darkvision, detect magic always on).
3) DR and resistance for survival
4) human shape = can use items (tiny though)
5) charisma = 20, use magic device master.
6) truespeech with my ranks in diplomacy and charisma of 20 = wow.

kami-shikigami..
1) not flying, no unique sensors.
2) invisible at will & can turn to an item (although heavy...) = good survival.
3) good charisma = good use magic device & good diplomacy as messenger.
4) good DR and resistnace.
5) hands = use use items.
6) most important - the ability to merge with the caster = ultimate defense.


agreed .
Need another one....
As I will need the extra traits .

We have no problem with "must be of different types ..." As a house role.


A cleric. Caster that also Melee .
Domains are trade and heroism.

We start with a single trait, I plan in wisdom in a flesh.
But I consider taking additional traits .
The options are :
Birthmark ( never lose a symbols)
Fates favorite ( for divine favor )
+2 concentration
+ 2 initiative ( although I like going last)
A better weapon proficiency
Outlander ( 3 spells cast as 1 lvl higher , and more dc- but what spells are worth it ?)

Is two of those , as good as a feat?


Monk.
Crusader flurry with a weapon of te god - that you also have guided hand in....
2 to all saves .
Full bab when flurry, -1 otherwise.
Wisdom to armor - is better than most armors.
Free feat.
Great 1d6 when opponent is near you.
Work the best if weapon of choice is a reach weapon.
All with the price of a caster and domain slower progression


are you talking about the prestige evangelist or the archetype ??


666bender wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:

Battle clerics need their own guide honestly. For example demon subdomain is arguably better than any two domains when you get enough attacks. Heroism was once a standard domain but as I said above, just be an evangelist. I mean the performances are greater than an entire domain?!! We need to get a small group of cleric experts together and objectively analyze this stuff as even tarks guide is now out of date except for new-ish players or new to cleric players.

The problem I see is who is reliable enough to have such a discussion? I can say that I know a LOT about clerics but I sometimes fall into the trap of maximizing em to the point I don't often give enough credit to the material that would be labeled green color in most guides. As a reult I'm not the guy to update the guide(s).

i am sorry, i dont agree with you at all about the archetype evangelist.

1) no spontaneous cast of healing >> you need to memorize healing >> you have a lot less spells per day. (a cleric isnt a band aid, but some healing is needed. )
2) many groups already have 1 bard - making the evangelist useless , in such a group, a heroism and X cleric > evangelist by big numbers.

another problem with evangelist:

the big + about a cleric's spell list is that it is full of situational spells.
resist energy , divination etc - are great spells - but not usable always. a cleric can take them and worse case - heal some more..


Renegadeshepherd wrote:

Battle clerics need their own guide honestly. For example demon subdomain is arguably better than any two domains when you get enough attacks. Heroism was once a standard domain but as I said above, just be an evangelist. I mean the performances are greater than an entire domain?!! We need to get a small group of cleric experts together and objectively analyze this stuff as even tarks guide is now out of date except for new-ish players or new to cleric players.

The problem I see is who is reliable enough to have such a discussion? I can say that I know a LOT about clerics but I sometimes fall into the trap of maximizing em to the point I don't often give enough credit to the material that would be labeled green color in most guides. As a reult I'm not the guy to update the guide(s).

i am sorry, i dont agree with you at all about the archetype evangelist.

1) no spontaneous cast of healing >> you need to memorize healing >> you have a lot less spells per day. (a cleric isnt a band aid, but some healing is needed. )
2) many groups already have 1 bard - making the evangelist useless , in such a group, a heroism and X cleric > evangelist by big numbers.


i played ton of clerics, and mostly love them all.
i found that the ""best"" clerics are either pure malle with summon spark or a heavy support caster with minor melee options.

a battle cleric is best, in my eyes as follows:
Gorum, ferocity & heroism (glory) or rage.
channel smite negative energy, guided hand and the domains give a lot of extra dice.
focus on self buff and summon .

as a support cleric, i mostly start with str of 14 tops.
my favorite is a trade (travel) & heroism domain.
long spear for reach malee with divine favor and power attack offer all the damage a cleric need.
focus on make others shine, buff, summon and attack.
use either enlarge with combat reflexes or spring attack for melee.


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Avoid being a sub par healer and play a proactive cleric.

Evangelist cleric specializing in summoning with the heroism domain.

Dump channel energy for varient channel.

As for healing grab a wand of cure light wounds.

Now if your set on playing just a healer I would ho Oradin.

which variant channeling?


a cleric can alsways melee.... even with str of 6.
a cleric isnt about being the best - its about making others the best.
if meleeis needed summon a beast stick - and buff it silly. he will be your tool .
buff the main ranger \ fighter and make him an avatar - than hide behind him .
take the punishment of the tank with shield other - and heal yourself form afar.
clerics have tools - not all of them are self made.


yes, its still a very good feat.


Wheldrake wrote:
The best contenders for spring attack are incorporeal creatures like spectres. Makes it danged hard to hit them when they spend most of the turn in solid rock, except on their initiative count.

i had a druid that fought as earth elemental the same manner.

he was a dwarf, and took the feats for tremor sense.


Aeric Blackberry wrote:

There are not best creatures per summoning level. The best creature changes per encounter. That is the wonderful flexibility of the Summon Chain spells.

That said. We often find that the best summon of level 3 or 4 with augment summoning is a bunch earth elementals. A bunch of hasted small earth elementals can drop almost everything that walks.

Seriously, if your enemy is land-bound, it will be facing several attacks at +8 (1d6+11 of damage). One for each elemental. They are slow, but can cross through earth based materials, climb like freaks and they feel the position of everything touching ground in 60ft.)

The numbers:
Attack: +2 base + 5 strenght +1 size +1 vs land-bound -1 power attack = +8 (+9 hasted)
Damage: +7 strenght +3 power attack +1 vs land-bound=1d6+11

my cleric also add:

heroism aura for the group of earthlings. (+2/+2)
the bard sings another (+2/+2)
someone ready and cast haste \ blessing of fervor.


Ssalarn wrote:
666bender wrote:
What 3 feats a cleric can get that people think will add more tools to the cleric that want to cast and fight ?
Channel Smite, Guided Hand, Craft Wondrous Item

if only channel smite allowed smites for a positive cleric!

than it would be totally worth it.
or, if a cleric could channel negative and spontaneous cast cures...


andreww wrote:

If you are treating a Cleric as a primary caster then I would strongly value the spell penetration and spell focus feats as well as improved initiative and some metamagic (mostly persistent, dazing and quicken) over anything to do with spring attack.

Clerics have almost no offensive SR: No spells outside of the summon monster spells so generally have few options against high SR enemies that avoid that SR. If you are employing much control magic then you definitely want to boost your saves. Enchantment (Forbid Action, Command, Greater versions thereof, Hold Person, Debilitating Portent), Evocation (dazing spells, Burst of Radiance, Holy Smite, Holy Word) and Necromancy (Blindness, Bestow Curse, Wall of Blindness) are all strong options. Conjuration is a decent pick as well if you plan to summon and will also help offensive uses of spells like Plane Shift and Wall of Stone.

a cleric, in my eyes, is primary a caster that can (and will) run into the fray whenever it is needed.

a fun cleric (for me ofc), is a cleric that start the day focusing on spells and buffs - but can, to better his group, decide to start healing mania and focus more on attacks...
so - a valid plan B tactics is great. (hence - spring attack + power attack.).
the other suggestions you made above also seem amazing, making a hard dc hard casting cleric - that CAN always go in and power attack...

all, and all, i think plan B need be either :

spring attack + power attack (attacking safely).
OR
augument summon, conjuration summon, power attack and quicken for divine favor instant buff.

A option will offer more maneuvers, more mobility and safe keeping the cleric.
B option will be the strongest combo - and offer the ability to bring in lower level summons - while still able to run in and kill.


Ssalarn wrote:
Channel Smite is necessary for Guided Hand. Guided is a 3.5 weapon property never released for Pathfinder. I'm a little surprised your group bans crafting but allows 3.5 materials. Makes it hard to have a discussion when you're dismissing things based on your heavily house-ruled game.

oh! you are right! we totally missed that one... mmm...


It was mentioned that elemental that aren't fire / earth/ air/ water are allowed .
Where does it say that ?


power att
toughness
furious focus


Ssalarn wrote:
666bender wrote:
What 3 feats a cleric can get that people think will add more tools to the cleric that want to cast and fight ?
Channel Smite, Guided Hand, Craft Wondrous Item

Craft Wondrous Item >>> is amazing feat. banned in our game like all other craft items.

Guided Hand >>> amazing indeed. but a guided weapon isnt very hard to get.

Channel Smite >>> is crap. channeling positive is a lot better than negative, as is also mean one cant cure his allies and must "waste" slot of memorize spells instead of using what ever is left at the end of the day.
yes, one CAN also take versatile channel - but that is 2 feats for extra damage that opponent probably win the save AND come on the same slot as curing your friends which lead to MORE heal spells you need to cast...
i think channeling need to be a simple off combat healing kit OR a tool Vs load of undeads.


i know.
but in pathfinder its more druidzila


PIXIE DUST wrote:
666bender wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:
666bender wrote:

well.... full attacking as a cleric is a myth. a cleric is caster > melee . (casting and fighting when it's easy fights / spells run low / need load of healing used...)

other than haste / blessing of fervor times = you will never hit at attack #2 and up.

it also prevent you from entering a risky place where a simple grapple shut you down. with trade domain (i got trade and heroism) - i fly in (overland flight...) - attack - fly out of harm's way. (in theory - not tested yet).

also, add "wisdom in a flesh" for stealth + hellcat stealth + armor of shadow >>>> and you are a skirmish that can hardly be found.

let's examine what can 3 feats offer in exchange:
(we don't allow "nature's ally feat" )

scribe scrolls for utility + reach spell + more traits ?
more traits (to add meta magic free) + empower + reach ?
combat exertise + imp trip + greater trip (with d.favor the CMB aint bad ). ?
augument summoning + superior summon. ?

i think a cleric is first a caster than a melee. so my str is 14 -16 tops.
summoning is great power! but with so many amazing spells, and the rotten fact it take a whole round to waste casting - summoning in reality is almost impossible (opponents seem to target you when you cast a full round spell...)
so - any cleric need "plan B" when spells are low / used for healing - to still be effective in combats (not #1, just effective).

so - other ideas?

Someone never heard of CoDzilla...

i have..... but in pathfinder its a lot harder.

Ghaleena the Conquoror Ooze

There is also the monktopus...

Oh and cleric is one of the best self buff martials in the game... people complain that it makes the warpriest look bad (which was supposed to be designed for martial combat)... Its not that hard to do. Hell Clerics have a spell to pretty much...

the links above are both druids. they are indeed one of the best DPR class in the game. i always die as a druid cause it's doing SO MUCH damage - DM must bring above pay check CR's.

druids are the best fast self long lasting buff and damage class with full spells. they do lack the utility my cleric offer.

but clerics? in a lab, a fully buff cleric that tank wisdom is great.
in reality - it is indeed useful in combats, but hardly in the first ranks.
most combats end really fast - and no 1 minute per level last more than a fight in our games. so - with a single round to buff a cleric can add: quicken divine favor (+3-+4) & righteous might for example.
with a start str of 14-16, i do well, but far behind the magus \ fighter.
a smiting, battle cleric of rage and ferocity, can indeed to well, but for 6-8 strikes a day. it end fast...


isnt there a way to sort by class?
also, very few clerics there right?


besides, it offer some options, but hardly OP.
CMD get really high, really fast.
trip get really hard or impossible as many fly.
high level monsters rarely use weapons to disarm, and sunder is only used by barbarian (and never on weapons :) right? )
it is just a nice bonus for an expensive feat chain.
you pay 3 feats to buy the neat option for things you cant otherwise try.
will they be more efficient than power attack on a charging smite? no.
will it offer a more round game? yes.
and it will also keep you alive a few rounds more.


PIXIE DUST wrote:
666bender wrote:

well.... full attacking as a cleric is a myth. a cleric is caster > melee . (casting and fighting when it's easy fights / spells run low / need load of healing used...)

other than haste / blessing of fervor times = you will never hit at attack #2 and up.

it also prevent you from entering a risky place where a simple grapple shut you down. with trade domain (i got trade and heroism) - i fly in (overland flight...) - attack - fly out of harm's way. (in theory - not tested yet).

also, add "wisdom in a flesh" for stealth + hellcat stealth + armor of shadow >>>> and you are a skirmish that can hardly be found.

let's examine what can 3 feats offer in exchange:
(we don't allow "nature's ally feat" )

scribe scrolls for utility + reach spell + more traits ?
more traits (to add meta magic free) + empower + reach ?
combat exertise + imp trip + greater trip (with d.favor the CMB aint bad ). ?
augument summoning + superior summon. ?

i think a cleric is first a caster than a melee. so my str is 14 -16 tops.
summoning is great power! but with so many amazing spells, and the rotten fact it take a whole round to waste casting - summoning in reality is almost impossible (opponents seem to target you when you cast a full round spell...)
so - any cleric need "plan B" when spells are low / used for healing - to still be effective in combats (not #1, just effective).

so - other ideas?

Someone never heard of CoDzilla...

i have..... but in pathfinder its a lot harder.


Ascalaphus wrote:
And based on the RAW that lets you maneuver with impunity, I'm thinking about a Lorewarden -> Shadowdancer with Spring Attack, since those feat chains are quite close to each other. Could be fun if you manage to move back into hiding after a hit, although you'd need a high movement rate to pull that off.

a lorewarden SD is indeed a scary being.

a build i like is :
lore warden 3
thug (rogue) 3
SD 3
lore warden the rest.
move in, attack once and vanish.
shadow companion attack for str drain and vanish as well.
opponent is sicken, shaken (enforcer + thug ability)+ tripped + AOO from trip while you are far away.
nice killer...and the shaken\sicken will work on most opponents.
it will de buff opponent until he cries.
--------
my cleric will use the spring attack, wisdom in a flesh and hellcat stealth to do the same trick. with heroism aura, divine favor, guided weapon and a bard his CMB will be ok. no greater feats, but versatile with the spells he carry.


My dm agreed the lack of AOO is vs all types of attacks .
So, it's , would you agree it's somewhat better ?
3 feats offer the following package :
1) skirmish - attack from the back / cover and return.
2) attack from flanks ( +2 to hits ) many times
3) stay out of harm in return to less damage
4) options for attack/ trip/ sunder / disarm - no AOO


Cast in the run....


What 3 feats a cleric can get that people think will add more tools to the cleric that want to cast and fight ?


andreww wrote:
Hmm wrote:
What Summon Good Monster did was change the alignment subtype of a lot of monsters to neutral good.
I don't see it doing that anywhere. It noted the alignment of lots of creatures, it did not give them a subtype. The only real additions for standard action summons are the small number of azata's, agathions etc. None of the celestial animals count.

exactly.

sacred summon is a poor feat, adding 1-2 possible summons as standard is not worth a feat.
pitty it cant allow celestial to come...


Ravingdork wrote:
Flyby Attack would be more useful to a spellcaster I'd think. It provokes unlike Spring Attack, but allows for standard actions rather than an attack. You probably shouldn't be in meleee anyways, provoking or not. Being able to hurl your spells from behind total cover is pretty nice.

true - but monster feats arent allowed in our games.


andreww wrote:
666bender wrote:


nice tactics...
with overland flight it add many movement tactics.
Overland Flight is a personal spell generally only available to arcane casters and a small subset of clerics and oracles, I don't see many of them setting fire to 3 of their limited feats to do this, especially clerics and oracles who get so few in the first place.

trade domain gets it


Ravingdork wrote:

One thing it is really good for, is attacking from the back of the line. For example, say you are in a 5-foot wide hallway with the monster on the far end with your party between you and it. You can actually use this feat to spring past your party, smack the monster in the face without provoking, and then dash back to the back where you started.

You can also use it to attack from a position of total cover, such as from around a corner, or from behind a pillar.

Like Vital Strike, it's not really meant to help with your damage output (which these forums are obsessed with). It's meant to help expand the number of options available to you. In all of the above examples, if you didn't have the Spring Attack feat you would either end up placing yourself in a detrimental position to get full attacked by the enemy (giving them the immediate advantage) or you wouldn't be able to make any effective attacks at all.

nice tactics...

with overland flight it add many movement tactics.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
The only time I could see spring attack being very good is for a monk (or brawler now I suppose - perhaps better for them) with both greater trip and vicious stomp. In that case you're not losing out on attacks - because assuming that your trip works, you're still getting the trip plus two swings.

there it is great... i doubt i can learn to master a maneuver as well, especially as trips are getting rare at highter levels.

but trip feats DO add to toppling spell nicely.


thanks for FAQ this.
personally, as it cost 3 feats, i would go as written and allow it.


wraithstrike wrote:
666bender wrote:

well.... full attacking as a cleric is a myth. a cleric is caster > melee . (casting and fighting when it's easy fights / spells run low / need load of healing used...)

other than haste / blessing of fervor times = you will never hit at attack #2 and up.

That is not true at all, and I am speaking from experience. Now, you won't hit as much as someone who uses full BAB, but you can still hit on the 2nd attack. As for the buffs you can get them, you just wont have them for every fight, but you wont need them for every fight either.

As for the grappling situation dust form(a spell) can handle that or you can summon a monster and have it scout for you. There is no reason to waste 3 feats on spring attack in my experience if you are speaking from a point of optimization. You will also have other party members. Having a high perception also helps.

There is also more than one way to play a cleric. Yes, they are better at casting, but they are still decent in combat. As for running low on spells, after 7th level that is not likely to happen unless you are wasting spells are dungeon crawling for that part of the game. Of course this assumes the rest of your party is well built and well played.

as magical items cant be bought, i run out of spells, as 30% go for cures, 30% go for buffs and the last 30% go for combat spells (save\suck or even chain of prediction).

the thing i love about clerics and druids, they can be full casters, and keep str of 14-16 and run in when combat starts. using feats to better combat and spells to better everything else.
i also took the trade-heroism combo for super cha-based skills, at level 9, i got diplomacy of 27 7 times a day...


i look at spring attack, and feat in general as a clustered of feats.
so, yes, the dodge and mobility are so so at best - but the 3 together aint bad .
it add options for tactical combat - lets compare to other 3 feat options at that level? what other "better" combinations you think ? (other than augment summon - who i love but cant get to spare spell slots for a full round casting spells.)


BretI wrote:

Cleric with Sacred Summons and Summon Good Monster. This gives a fair number of monsters you can summon as a standard action.

The next feats to add would be Spell Focus(Conjuration) and Augment Summoning to buff the summons.

what fair amount?

the list sucks!


instead of gaining the mighty template of the planes - you ask heavens to assist your summoning to be quicker.

aligned animal:
require : able to cast divine summon monster with celestial or fiendish template .
benefit: when summoning an animal, that can be "boosted" with a template , the divine caster may decide to "keep" the animal without a template - using the normal statistics for it.
the animal will have the following changes:
1.the summon spell will take a full round rather than a 1 round casting (hence, the animal will attack same round as casting - but caster will have no more actions )
2. the animal will gain an alignment of the caster type - good for positive channaler, evil for negative hence - the animal will suffer the effects of protection from evil spells.


instead of gaining the mighty template of the planes - you ask heavens to assist your summoning to be quicker.

aligned animal:
require : able to cast divine summon monster with celestial or fiendish template .
benefit: when summoning an animal, that can be "boosted" with a template , the divine caster may decide to "keep" the animal without a template - using the normal statistics for it.
the animal will have the following changes:
1.the summon spell will take a full round rather than a 1 round casting (hence, the animal will attack same round as casting - but caster will have no more actions )
2. the animal will gain an alignment of the caster type - good for positive channaler, evil for negative hence - the animal will suffer the effects of protection from evil spells.

balanced?

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