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Pathfinder Society Member. 2,048 posts (2,050 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.


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also, get a familiar , Mauler archtype and be small.
fly on the raven .


then only a few options :

monstreous mount X2 feats.
ranger not a cavalier (which... isnt half bad really) .
order of the beast min level 8
ghost rider archtype min level 14 or so.


Beastmaster ranger can have a roc 1st level 4.....
Yes it would have lower damage with no challenge and order of the sword but...
Spells . skills . free feats and maybe even a switch hitter archer and charger build.


oh....damn...
wanted to try a cleric , mounted (feather domain) combat, small size.
ge can be very decent team semi-fighter, but oor charger as no + to damage to multiply.
a STR battle oracle or cleric would do better vital striking than a small mounted one.

so good mounted are still the ranger and the cavalier . and maybe the mauler fighter with the familiar pet.


Is the damage double on a critical?
What about a mounted charge ?


also, a cleric can be much better .
guided hand feat , channel negative energy will make you focus on same ability for super DC and to hits .

smite offer some more damage .
fireballs are nice addon - i had 2 clerics like that.
1 was theologian - super wisdom caster.
the other was flame + animal (local god of elementals) - i used a charging build with fireballs all with wisdom and con focus.
th saves was amazing, the to hit also.

but.... if oracle...
i would think on the folloing option :
Blacked hand add the azmaing scorching ray spell - although with a tax of to hits.
mystery i would take Lonar for a super buffed Tiger pet , fireballs and off melee options or a Battle mystery for decent manuver and free feats.
the spells are from the 2 archtypes - but be aware - the STR and CHA and CON will stretch you thin in abilites.


half elf Ancient lorekeeper , Battle or Lonar mystery are amazing blaster and combetant.

you get to add 1 spell of wizard , even if at highter level .
Spirit guide is both great, adding a hex and spells and costly, 3 revelations are harsh.


also, i love hide in plain sight , if you take spring attack you already quiify for shadow dancer - 1 level is amazing for a rogue. espscially a small one.

with shadow armor, boots of springting (move 40) you easy dash in, the movement trigger the scout free sneak, than move out into nothingness.


add scout archtype as well, learn spring attack.
every move of 10' is auto flat footed = sneak.

learn charging thrower = "chrage" 10' and throw a dagger = sneak.

you are only helpess Vs elementals and oozes (the later are the bane of all melee) - so use magic device and a decent wand or staff of fire are in order.


Clerics. Have better to hit then most classes if they focus on it...lower damage but not to hit.

Fate's favorite and divine favor are +4
Glory domain add heroism for another 2
Magic weapon make the long spear decent
If there is a bard great if not go evangelist for bard boosting.

I had a glory (heroism) and trade domains once.
Guided hand with channel smite made me focus on wisdom with str of 14. Damage wasn't amazing but was decent. Fun play.


The highter the level the lower the gap.
Mounted combat , rage or power attacks all add to the same spot.
The only big issue is cmb as it's a bad scaling bonus for all but even that is doable.
Yes the dpr is lower but the stealth and saves are nice. The mount or mauler familiar.


MadScientistWorking wrote:
Oxylepy wrote:
As a companion, though, it is completely unlike anything else. It would have been really nice if it were designed as an actual shadow version of you, or at least became a Greater Shadow at 10 SD levels
I think the Shadow Oracle can animate their shadow into a scaling version. In fact it's pretty much a better full version of the Shadowdancer in a lot of ways.

What is shadow Oracle ? Link please. In the srd there isn't such a option.


Make the super tank grapple and dirty trick for blind.fighter only pin down. Many ways to force a for at yoh


gang up is amzaing in the right party. also for sneak attack users.


Continuing my thread...
Here is a nice swash build I came out with.

1. Whirling Dervish allow all weapons of light , piercing or scimitar to add both hit and damage from dex not str.

2. Can't wield weapon in off hand or a shield. Not a word nor a faq on flurry.

3. One level of sohei allow 2 to all saves (week spot), flurry in mithral breast plate .

4. Snake style offer piercing with unarmed. Strikes, activating the dex to hot and damage and flurry.

5. Also, one hand trigger level to damage.

So...
You can use a scimitar for 15-20 critical or flurry for extra attack.

Dex based, half orc with 1 level dip offer great ac (dodge, dex , parry, expertise, crane style) or flurry of fists. All with level -1 to damage, fighter only feats, weapon training, critical range and other stuff.

One can even take one more dip into rogue (thug) and swift action frighten foes.

That and the eastern daring Cavaliers seem really good builds to play


Chess Pwn wrote:

So I believe it only takes 1 standard action to remove ALL dirty tricks they have on them. [/QUOTE

]
Why is that? Is says removing the condition...not conditions...


Chess Pwn wrote:

Personal question here, sorry op,

If you've put on 3 dirty tricks on someone how long does it take them to get rid of all three?

why sorry? open debate is the best.

3 move or 3 standards.... thats why the skulking slayer, with 2 weapon style and a dog adding one more? is... wow.
you win a fight without a single blow.

the familiar with lorewarden , when the famiiar share your feats is also amazig


in martial arts, unlike fencing, ytou never parry with the weapon alone.
rry can be channling the movement of the foe onto another direction. it can block the hand and not the weapon, it can "not be there" and allowing the weapon to hit your flowing cloak......

in a game people fly.... how to parry isnt the issuu right?


Cavalier huntmaster 3, boon companion
Than 1 skulking slayer then either 3 more warden or 2 low templar.
Rest are cavalier.

Cmb is +2 from low templar , +2 from coordinate maneuvers.
Pet can dirty for entangle with +2 or flank for +4. Or it can aid another master.
Every critical add effect freely.
Every sneak (flanks) can be dirty trick .
Add enforcer and you can really stack effects.

The mailer is also a really nice deal also. Especially for a small fighter ...


quick dirty trick indeed is a nice one. but. it will allow 1 dirty a round. the idea is to stack many effects so the opponent get rid them out.


lemeres wrote:
666bender wrote:
The familiar is nice but low ac low hp.... It will die if in melee a lot more than a mount.
For HP, a mauler familiar can end up with a lot of hp if you use a mauler, since the owner can take a feat to give it +2 hp per level.

what feat is that?


Thanks.
Oracle I meant the archtype that add wizard spells to the list, adding super nice spells.

The familiar is nice but low ac low hp.... It will die if in melee a lot more than a mount.

I still think a 1 level dip of skulking slayer is amazing.

Ain't a magus better then a wizard and fighter combo?

Which will be a better base melee here ? More warden, ranger with a wolf, cavalier with a dirty trick dog? Or a swashbuckler that sadly has low saves ?


i want to play a fun character than will be able to do the follwing :

1. have "some" skills or spells or way to be useful in non-combat play-time. not a "face" , but... something to do.
2. be OK++ at damage, when no maneuver is optinal.
3. master dirty tricks and maybe grapple (dirty is s must). meaning, i want to able to use dirty tricks in most combats , so decent progressing CMB is needed.
4. am considering to take 2 level in low templar - that add both +2 to CMB and amazing crit effects.

rules:
1. ofc the game has magical items, but we cant create or buy - only what DM "give" or we find .
2. 22 point by.
3. core books (combat, magic, advance, player) are ok. class guide is partly, other need DM saying ok.
4. no slayer or unchained allowed.
5. DM allow most dirty tricks to work with a weapon.
6. Skulking Slayer is allowed, so is lore wardens.

the game start at low level and expected to reach high levels.

so.... here are several decent options that can also do other stuff...

The Magus:

Int based offer very nice skills.
spells offer a nice "plan B".
dex based offer good defence - but cost load of feats to work.
the options of True strike and attack at same round is lovey.
full build will have to wait until level 9 for BAB 6, quick dirty tricks at full bab "worth".
magics tend to have VERY high weapon bonus, decent defences and options.

The Ranger X \ Skulking Slayer 1:

1/2 orc
STR based, so decent damage.
2 weapon style, Boon companion make a full pet.
each attack can be a dirty trick.
bonus feats help a lot.
LOAD of skills. (int 14 can be 9 per level) - leaving room for knowledge and information gathering.
+2 to all saves (with trait) .
team feats can add more bonuses.

Lore warden X \ Skulking Slayer 1:

seem a bit weaker than the options of the ranger,
but best CMB AND CMD
weapon training.
fighter only feats.
however... since you got load of feats, one can even learn spring attack and dip 1 into shadow dancer. since sneak = dirty trick, you can skirmish in and out - vanishing leaving the foe blind and helpless.

The Swashbuckler:

dex based ofc.
swash offer no real maneuver bonuses, but the parry and style is nice.
best critical build - at level 5 +.
can work nicely with intimidate as extra debuf.

The Oracle :

Battle mastery offer full dirty trick progression.
the elf archetype, taken with a 1/2 elf, offer good saves and wizard spells.
very MAD build, poor saves.
full 9 level caster is a great plan B...

The Cavalier - Huntmaster :

either a 1/2 orc for a skulking slayer dip or halfling for riding the dog.
the dog add yet another dirty trick with decent enough chance to land.
coordinate maneuvers will add you both +2.
halfling can ride the dog .
Plan B when no dirty tricks, can be either charging or defending allies with bodyguard feats and aid another.

order of the Dragon for party defenses.
order of the Sword for feats, will saves, and a killing charges. (halfling only).
order of the Paw if dog learn bull rush.
Order of the Eastern Star for RP and using the useless expertise.
order of the cockatrice if adding intimidate to the combo. (more 1/2 orc).


also nice if you got greater magic weapon....


Evangelist is another cool option, if no bard at the team .
Divine favor quicken is +4 , heroism is +2. Bard is another +2 all at level 9...and a strong 1 round.

Shaman or Oracle can work well as well, although Oracle suffer from low saves.


Don't choose.
Guided hand is the key.
Human or dwarf for more saves .

Str 14 top con 14 to 16
Rest wisdom.
Your to hit us high, good saves. Nice spell dc.
Melee need only 3 feats. Power attack, channel smite and guided hand. Rest will go to scribe scrolls and meta magic or sacred summon.
Your we weapon hits hard, your spells even harder. A summon here and there even the odds.


Items ,
Mask of giants is amazing.
Tremor boots for earth glide.
Baeding
at low levels if going 1 animal type.


One small qa,
On the lion shaman build, you offered to summon feline like wolves.... Wrong type ;)

Other than that great guide.

More tactics:

Tremor boots are amazing for earth elemental form scouting.

Rime spell is well worth it, on frost bite, no saves stacking effects, add enforcer and wow...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Boars are my favorites. Accepted every where and powerful enough.


Your guide is slowly getting amazing.

Here are a few tips I like.

Cave can add tremor sense, on a fly by attack or spring attack , as earth elemental, you can enter the ground and be safe.

Lion has super summon , glory domain for even better buffs .


So, sacred fist 1-4 and a magus 2 are the best way to add more attack.
Both open a lot of versatility as well, with scrolls.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

This is gonna seem counterintuitive at first, but hear me out.

Dwarf
Daring Champion
Favored Class bonus: +1/2 to damage vs target of your challenge
Trait: Warrior of Old
Feat: Steel Soul
weapon of choice: [adamantine] heavy pick

Between Precise Strike and Challenge you're adding damage equal to 2 1/2 times your level on damage. And you have a +5 to nearly all saves before factoring in stats or bonuses from class.

5 to saves is a lot.

But the abilites are horrible. Minus charisma , no dex


BadBird wrote:

Swashbuckler has major swift-action congestion problems, so menacing swordplay is actually kind of awful. Precise Strike will do its normal bonus unless you attack with an offhand; using TWF to gain an offhand dagger attack and then giving it up for Duelist parry means you aren't making an offhand attack.

If you want Monk-style flurry, I'd seriously look at 4 levels of Sacred Fist of Sarenrae with Crusader's Flurry. You can then use Dervish Dance for easy dex-to-damage scimitar that works with all Swashbuckler features, so you don't have to use a crappy Agile sai. A little wisdom AC works just fine for a dex-based character. For that matter, charisma isn't nearly as important as it seems for a Swashbuckler - Charmed Life has massive action problems, and 8 CHA plus one Extra Panache is the same as 16 CHA for Panache use.

All the exames I wrote for getting extra attack will not use the off hand weapon.

The fighter - is using a buckler for shield slam, buckler are allowed.

The sohei will flurry with a momk, light piercing weapon.

The magus. Will use spell strike to cast a level 0 spell, for a free attack.

Also, unarmed strikes and 2 weapon style allow off hand to be weapon less or a kick...


Daring champion I agree, isn't dip friendly.
Order of the dragon with helpful trait , buterfly sting, swift aid and bodyguard is a amazing #2 melee, that can do his part on damage.

Swashbuckler has a few things open to him as well...

1. Intimidate as swift acrion, add 1 thug level , skill focus and send the for a running.
2.parry is amazing , add dueling 2 and parry 2 a round.

I need not carry a weapon in hand #2, but... Will those work on both build with precise strike still working?

1. Dip 2 the fighter above
2.dip 1 sohei monk and flurry a sai?
3. Dip magus 2, adding zero level spell for a free attack?

Adding full level (minus the dip...) and having extra attack will make it really strong

Alao, adding crane style seem like a must if not using a buckler


also, for adaring champion, i wonder if a Samurai is better than a cavalier.
team feat sharing fit the role - but resolve is potent...


halflings have +1 luck - add fate's favorite and it is now +2....
smite is great, but 1 foe a day ? we play long days mostly and Vs many foes - so it feels less potent .

Why isnt it also Effective? losing the parry is a big pay, indeed .... but...


is this not adding TON of options ?
a 2 level dip into buckler dueling fighter, so I can 2 weapon style ?

quick dirty trick feat + mouser = 2 dirty tricks each round.
swift action = intimidate, than dirty trick = they run.

or no archtype, and save the "off hand shield bash" of the buckler for a parry ? giving full attack & a parry...


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Daring Champion is better on raw damage offensively (Challenge will do that), and has better Saves IMO (high Fort is better than high Ref on a Dex character, and Charmed Life is...situational). It also has Order bonuses, many of which are very nice.

On the other hand, Swashbucklers get Opportune Parry and Riposte, which is very cool. So there's that. They also get Weapon Training and what amounts to free Improved Critical and slightly more bonus Feats (one more, for most practical levels).

But Daring Champion does still get Dodging Panache which lets you stop full attacks from happening a lot of the time, and as stated, it's got Challenge.

So it sorta depends on what you want. I'd personally almost always go Daring Champion (and there's no reason not to if your GM ignores the errata that took Opportune Parry away from the Daring Champion), but if you really want to abuse the parry mechanic, there are ways.

It's also very possible that Ultimate Intrigue will make the Swashbuckler better, given that (from stuff people who have the book have said) an Archetype in there gives up Charmed Life for a scaling bonus against mind-effecting stuff. That might really help the Swashbuckler's main problem (Saves) enough to make it a better choice.

take away for a minute the Smite - how is the Cavalier better melee?

it seem exactly the same - a little lower :
less crit, no fighter only feats, no weapon training.
also, halfling or 1/2 orc fix the saves with racial +2 (with a trait. )
lastly - the archtypes of swashbuckler seem decent like Mouser - adding cool funny combat and dirty tricks.


JulianW wrote:

I was looking at daring champion cavalier yesterday

Was only looking at up to level 7 - but the Order of the Eastern Star has potential, granting DR & save bonuses when you use combat expertise and negates the combat expertise penalty on some attacks. Seemed to be a good base for having high AC and defences despite only wearing light armour (say if you want to be running around a ship). Plus cool strong roleplay flavour about secretly hunting occult horrors & unimaginable threats from beyond.

Ironically it was for Skull & Shackles - the using idea of the banner abilities via the ship's colours appealed.

nice order that is also FULL of RP.


I like the concept.
Does any one have a full build?
Small vs human?
Daring vs swachbuckler?
Worth a 2 level dip into buckler dueling fighter, so I can 2 weapon style ?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

order of the beast can offer super mountes, flying and whats not .
order of the sword is the BEST chargers. i love them.
a few more options :

1) Emissery archtype offer free nice feats in exchange of the team feats man dislike.

2) horse lord give up some , but gain a full charger with a scimitar for X5 damage spring attacks by level 9.

3) monstreous mount feat add flying mounts to the game

4) ghost rider can fix the "where to put the mount" issue.


cant seem to be able to read all at the same time...
pitty.


Wielding a lance on a mount makes the lance a one handed weapon?
Of so, a cavalier x, swashbuckler 1, can finesse a lance?


Sohei with animal ally are amazing, Skirmisher and team fighting. Less as chargers. Different style.

Ranger, beastrider have the best mounts , utility, skills and , if small, can switch full attacks with skirmishes and charges.

Cavalier are the top damage charges , less utility, that can also tank well.

Barbarian are strong melee .


Another cool concept.
Use magic device allow casting as your caster level.
Triat will allow caster level of full level minus 1.
So....
2 weapon style with a staff, skill focus use magic device and cast fireballs a
As a switch hitter concept.


First iff6, thank you for a well , pictured illustrated , guide.
A few missing things.
1.hybrid druids, human add to 2 abilities x add to str and wis.cast than wild shape and run in.

2.multi class dips, like a monk

3.builds.


But, with dex of 14, rapid shot and deadly aim, how do you ever hit???


I don't like switch hitters.

First off, ranger get a feat to shoot in melee, so why switch?
Getting cln, wis, str and dex will mean mediocre damage, med to hits... Also, no room for special stuff.


Rangers can fill any dpr roll.
Sword and board are decent tanks , with their wolf.
2 weapon str build, crit fishers are fun and deadly .

Mounted combat If small race is wow, as beast master can have a flying mount (or a gecko) at level 4, making them better than cavalier.

Archery is super dpr


Horse lord is amazing arcytype. Build a sec scimitar halfling, dervish dance , crane style. Decent damage, super ac, greatsaves

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