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Pathfinder Society Member. 2,079 posts (2,081 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Oracle of nature , lunar etc or a cleric of animal domain will be a lot better


Druid have, normally, unless magic is cheap and out there , armor class issues.
And sometimes to hit issues as they are MAD. Also low on feats.

But... They are amazing versatile class that should choose a path.

Melee:
Goliath are the best . followed by mountain , lion and saurian archtypes.
All spells are buffs and summon . very poor spell dc.
Melee need to dip one with monk for armor and should take power attack , vital strike, grapple and any feat or item that add str.
Rage domain or glory or a pet.

Caster:
Fire domain or a pet, a flyer is best.saurian or lion or eagle for summon master with your spells.

Hybrid.
It's like a caster that take vital strike and str of 14. You will never be amazing , but you will be useful .

Lastly , nature fang. No wild shapes but free feats , a pet and a full caster will make you a decent charger or archer build.


ChaosTicket wrote:

A better thing Ive read Treatmonk's guide about Druids. Basic thing is whether I want to make a Brute or Caster druid. Im not going to sacrifice spellcasting, but a brute would use more combat feats like Power attack.

Im really trying hard to find a Domain that is practical. I dont find much point in a specific slot spells that cannot be altered. Cleric in particular has alot of domains that give wizard spells which can only be used in those single domain slots per turn.

Storm Druid doesnt seem like a terrible Archetype. It cant use an animal companion, but being able to replace prepared spells with more uses of domain spells might be nice IF I can find spells that arent just Druid spells. That kind of makes the Storm Druid is weaker Theologian. Theologian can use Wizard spells like Fireball.

The Goliath Druid is very brutish. Turning into a giant by level 6 is quite nice. I had to reread this as it DOESNT limit you to just giants, but you cant be a plant or elemental and the only animals are dinosaurs/megafauna. If there is a strong flying dinosaur, then no problem.

there are a few flying dino's, they arent great - but will do. one is tiny, other is large.

getting giant form is GREAT boost but really focued.
i ALWAYS prefer lion or saurian for the standard action summon. it is a game changing ability - summon and move - summon and move.

domain are less potent than animal untill REALLY late levels (12+) when they kick in.
fire to add fireballs (with feats as a spontaneous casting...) .
Rage for rage ability.
nobility (eagle shaman) for divine favor.
glory (lion) for buffs.
all are decent.


beast master cavalier can get a large bear


healing is great if 2 conditions are there to support it:

1. heal - but also ????
if oracle, take a pet (lunar ? nature soul feat etc. ) and blacked curse (scorching rays!) and either one of those archtypes:
the one that add hexes (shaman mixture) or the one for elves that add wizard spells.
if heals are needed? heal. if not ? buff the tiger or blast the enemy. max con and charisma and you are there.

2. if cleric:
A: domains of healing + fire.
your healing are empower, with quick channel you get to heal and cast.
trade healing for animal and grab the pet as your "buffed" damage dealer that also defend you as you heal.
b: evengalsit . luck, glory or madness domain.
you buff, you touch allies or enemy (choose) and when needed - heal.

3. life oracle, that ALSO take feats for a pet and blacked curse.
you heal, you attack, your pet gets the rightoush might...


Menacing Shade of mauve wrote:
666bender wrote:

Minute pper level isn't a pre buff. A simple search the room and some walk end the duration.

10 per level is a bit better .
10 minutes/level is an entire smallish dungeon. 1 minute/level is the next fight, and more if you play SWAT instead of Minesweeper.

Depends... Our smart dm make sure to add a " mile long tunnel" from time to time


Minute pper level isn't a pre buff. A simple search the room and some walk end the duration.
10 per level is a bit better .


Das Bier wrote:
666bender wrote:
Das Bier wrote:

A battle cleric can replace a fighter in doing the fighter's job if they desire to. And then do other jobs if those are required.

Whereas the fighter can only do his own job, and doesn't have near the defenses a cleric does. Also, the fighter can't do near the damage a cleric can using his own class features. He MUST spend money, esp on consumables, to do so.

The cleric just casts them ahead of time.

Just, ugh.

The Dragon come near, roaring and charging the party.... Then.. A scream is shouted,!

STOP Mr dragon, said the cleric. " give me 15 casting rounds and than let's see who is the man ....."
The cleric return the fight, to see 3 dead party member and a dead Dragon next to the almost dead barbarian.
" well... " said the rightous giant cleric, " good thing I learned raise dead...

What you mean is:

The Dragon come near, roaring and charging the party.... Then.. A scream is shouted,!

"Buff up! We'll cover for you!" cries the party fighter nobly.

"No need!" said the Cleric, a quickened Righteous Might shooting him to giant size, and battle is joined.

After the fight, the party fighter looks at oversized cleric as he heals everyone in the party. "Don't you need time to buff?" he asks, as his burns and bruises are healed. He notes the cleric took MUCH less damage from the dragon's attacks then he did.

"Buffs? Oh, I cast most of those HOURS ago," the cleric says kindly.

Other than heroism on heroism domain WHAT buffs are cast pre combat ?

Non of the best... They are all minute per level maximum


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Das Bier wrote:

A battle cleric can replace a fighter in doing the fighter's job if they desire to. And then do other jobs if those are required.

Whereas the fighter can only do his own job, and doesn't have near the defenses a cleric does. Also, the fighter can't do near the damage a cleric can using his own class features. He MUST spend money, esp on consumables, to do so.

The cleric just casts them ahead of time.

Just, ugh.

The Dragon come near, roaring and charging the party.... Then.. A scream is shouted,!

STOP Mr dragon, said the cleric. " give me 15 casting rounds and than let's see who is the man ....."
The cleric return the fight, to see 3 dead party member and a dead Dragon next to the almost dead barbarian.
" well... " said the rightous giant cleric, " good thing I learned raise dead...


No battle cleric will do more damage a round than a fighter same level. Period.
However....
Fighter can't create a plane, heal, and more more more..

I also love the following build.
Fire domain theologian. Fight with weapon, cast fireballs or buff when the Dragon is too big


Swashbuckler is great. Low saves need a fix but great.
Thug 3 is a great advice.
Daring champion is different, not better. Different. Highter damage , but less shticks.

Lastly, not law-indendent , but is by the rules, fencing grace works with unarmed strikes..


Scavion wrote:

Building a battle cleric and slowly realizing your attack rolls are the least powerful thing you can do as you gain more levels.

I love Clerics, but I just hate building them. Mechanically dry.

That's why I love guided hand feat , a decent God's weapon and at least 1 of the following domains:

Chaos for aoe debuff
Luck of fighter booster
Heroism for summon and buff
Madness or repose for a super , no save touch attack.

Lower levels you attack , later you cast
Focus on wisdom and con with heavy armor.


Nature fang druid is also amazing.
Free feats for archery or lance . full 9 lvl spells. Full mount. 3/4 bab. D8 hp.
You can add trap finding , summoning and some buffs and heals while charging or arrow shooting off your flying mount.
It is.... Nice really.

Horse master is great for a spring attacking halfljng on a dog. 15-20 crit while you dash in and out doing x3 damage or x5 20 percent of the time.

Lastly I love cavalier 4, bard 1, battle herald with horse master feat for a full mount


I agree on most .
With 1 level cleric of luck add 5 times a day of re roll all checks to one ally. That's a strong buff on another melee ...
Bard indeed is a rounder package. Skills and versatile performance are both handy. Saving finnale is a super lvl 1 spell.
That work on full plate .

Level 1 vs 4 is a tougher choice than you wrote.

With horse master feat, 4 cavalier adds a mount. Even a dog add bodyguard feat and aid another. For huge buffs. With monstrous mount it can be a flyer.

Even if going dex build, 4 levels of cavalier can add 4 damage with precise strike and dazzling display with standard actions.
2 Level 2 spells a day is nice... But.. Seem the cavalier add a bit more.

I think the best is cavalier 4 Bard 1.
Either small on a dog , mounted for mobility a d double aid . (cavalier no archtype Or houndmaster)
Or human daring champion for dex scimitar knight. Fast moving and fencing.
Very nice... Will post some full builds soon


Cavalier have emissey and order of the sword for chargers.
Free feats at level:
1, 5,6,8,9,12
Losing tactition.

Rangers need boon companion so minus 1 feats...
Order of the sword add mount str to charges. That's a lot...

And smite is great.

I love rangers , but mounted ? Cavalier won easy.


Ranger is a bit better skills, some small amount of spells, and the archtype for any mount possible.

cavalier has a strong smite, super charging order of the sword and either a lot of feats or tactition.

both are cool classes.


RaizielDragon wrote:

Actually, I would be cool with using something other than a lance. I just assumed if I came in here with a mounted build with Spirited Charge and wasn't using a lance, I'd be told to use a lance. Something spear-ish would be preferred though, so there aren't too many other options anyway. Also, since the Lance has a built-in ability to be used one-handed, I can use a shield too.

As for the Cavalier, I'm just not much of a fan. I'd prefer the combat style feats, hunter tricks, and animal focus to the teamwork feats, bonus feats, and order. Unless you have a specific combination in mind that the Cavalier can do, that the Ranger can't.

Ant Haul might be a good idea; could look into getting a wand maybe, or just springing for the belt; can an Animal Companion wear a magical belt?

Not sure what Ranger, Beast Rider, and a Flying Mount have in common. Beast Rider is a Cavalier archetype that specifies no flying mounts.

first, cavaliers and rangers are very differnt - with other usees.

i meant -beastmaster a archtype of ranger that can have ANY animal he want... take a roc.
also - monsterous mount open griffons.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---rang er-archetypes/beastmaster


1. Spells...ant haul is a fixer to the problem.
2. If ranger than beast rider. Take a flying mount...


Druids are like cleric or oracles.
They CAN do all roles.
They CANT do them at the same time.

Choose between caster ..melee...grapples and never look back


If fighter than more warden even the skills and make sure maneuvers are alive .
Dirty trick specialist and debuffs.
Grapple...shaken..spear dancer ...stack effects to keep combat intersting


lingering performance will assist here.
arcane bond can be achieved with E.heritage as well, at a cost of 2 feats.

what i wonder, is Bard 1 Vs Bard 4 Vs cleric 1 or 4 option ?
you are a melee buffer (and \ or debuffer), not the main damage dealer.

first, lets see the Bard Vs Cleric area :
if taken a single level only, a Bard will add a lot more skills, and some nice spells like messege for quickly adding the bard boosting.
a cleric offer a single domain, that, some like Repose, Chaos, Madness and travel have AMAZING level 1 powers added to your kit.
also, the ability to cast at full plate Vs light armor is really handy.
all and all, the 1 level arcane Vs divine? the divine win even if by a minority.

level 4 bard VS level 4 cleric is a whole new story :
cleric added little more than the level 1... level 2 list is nice but not great. charisma is a better stat than wisdom to you, and versitile performance is GREAT 2 in 1 kit. you will need a feat to cast in medium armor , so at least you mirror image works.
still, Repose or Madness can "put a fight" as adding a strong attack to your arrenal.

Cavalier 1 Vs 4? it's down to 2 Q's:
1. do you want a mount and are small race? if so, horse master for the win, than bard 1, than BH rest. your spells suck, your buffs start late - but order of the dragon + honor gaurd + halfling + helpfull trait + bodygaurd on you AND your dog? you share full plate AC worth all around ....take swift Aid feat , and you can, with the pet, add infinite bonuses.
also, tactition is WAY better.

so.... thoughts?
BARD VS CLERIC?
1 VS 4 ?
for a front liner character. it's just seem to me , giving up the mount with horse master - like a HUGE loss...


assmodeus


cavalier order of the dragon halfling on his nice mount.
helpfull trait , bodygaurd , benelevent armor and EVERY defence or deflection gear you can find.
take some save feats or even boon companion with some dips to monk .
mount also grab extra trait for the +3 helpfull, aid another armor and the bodygaurd feat.
you both share, stackable pluses that force any foe to "go on you".
take toghness, use smart team feats and style feats and hold out .
smite when the time is ready.

a barbarian can have super DR yet still doing super damage so he cant be ignored.

lastly, my Lore warden is amazing . he has medium AC, medium saves... but he suts you in a round.
in 1 round you are prone, shaken or even feared, sicken, dazzled, blinded. it's....a shut down machine that is doing VERY low damage but most foes cant act back.


druid can wear stone full plate .
goliath can keep their armors as they turn to giants with a swift action ( quick wild shape) .
or a saurian , that lose the AC but have a strong round 1 for a summon + wild shape + move while the pet is moving to a flank .

as a cleric i mostly take dex of 10 or 12 max, and use a thicker armor. AC is mostly useless any how, and toughness and a good CON goes a far better defense layer.
if cleric, i would consider 1 offence domain like fire or bad touch, and 1 a buffing like glory or a protection one like adding deflection or mirror image spells.


Madness and chaos are super debuffs.
Blood and madness are strong .

Repose and glory are debuff with fast buffs .

Ash and madness are caster debuffer craziness.
A dazing fire ball after the aura of madness is a 2 round game winner.


You need to ask what is the melee roll first.
If it's damage than go magus or war priest.
If it's maneuvers with spells battle Oracle is a winner.
My favorite ? Bad touch with melee effects .
Madness touch for no save debuff. Enforcer with cruel and spear dancer add another -5 to hits and -4 to saves.
Leaving the foe, no save, at a place he risk no one...

All this with full high end dc spells .


Guided hand is a lot better than str build.
Yes, it's lower damage and lower bonus from core buff spells. But a combat cleric. Have issues and item dependency after level 10. A guided hand will melee a lot at lower levels, than cast with high dc at nighter levels.the only big issue is the feats.


well, clerics will never be a barbarian in melee.
but there are 4 spots clerics execl at.

first a note - battle oracle - unless using some special archtypes is really a so-so option , low saves, medium HP and a front liner aint gonna cut it.

clerics on the other hand have some tricks:

first a general note . ALWAYS take guided hand feat, than focus on wisdom with STR of 14 max.
this will give you great to hit with gereat spell DC at the same time, leaving room for , low level melee and high level casting.
feats are the main issue.

1. the bad touch melee.
combine touch attacks with melee.
pick a god with madness, chaos , luck ,archon, repose etc for decent standard touch or\and a great melee domain like glory, rage or blood.
another option is madness and trickery or void for touch and defence.
take spring attacks, and debuff the hell.
add enforcer feat, dancing spear for more stacking no save bonuses.
make the opponent cry, and give the mage his "save or suck" try.
works BEST with a slumber witch .

2. the super buffer.
Evangalist cleric (also called divine bard) - with heroism or madness domains. buff and attack

3. the tank. dwarf. stone plate . all out protective spells and animal domain for a defender "pet".

4. i once played a (local game) god of madness and ash. guided hand a glaive, touched for debuffs , and used firebals (preffered spell) constantly . was fun.


That trait is from kobolds. I would not allow it to other races.


3., yes read the rules for flurry. It stacks.more attacks also .
The one thing you don't get is the better flurry advance , that is like improve 2 we apon styles


both are amazing classes and shurley have room in the game.
Cleric:
with Domains like Glory and rage , one can be a Rager melee with 9 level spells. Guided hand feat and a good god's weapon offer a SAD and super spell DC with great to hit and ok damage.

Feather and Fire offer a great mounted flyer and fire blaster. take a small size and ride your Roc blasting fireballs and reach feat heals.

Theologian offer a single domain like fire to be a full plate blaster with d8 hp. take (again) guided hand and smite, blast, defend .
(swtich hitter fire ball and a big weapon ).

Evangalist add a bard to parties that lack bards.
Glory can add a super buffer in light armor and a reach weapon.

Druids :
First there are the archtypes:
Saurian is a super melee and the best summoner in the game.
take Rage or a companion.
lion is just a bit behind.

Goliath is a great troll weilding big weapon.
druid can scout amzing, track, off-heal, blast a bit (or a lot with fire domain) , summon and more.
they need to focus a lot.
grapple builds... mellee or caster .
they CAN go both but ... then be so-so at best.


also, get a familiar , Mauler archtype and be small.
fly on the raven .


then only a few options :

monstreous mount X2 feats.
ranger not a cavalier (which... isnt half bad really) .
order of the beast min level 8
ghost rider archtype min level 14 or so.


Beastmaster ranger can have a roc 1st level 4.....
Yes it would have lower damage with no challenge and order of the sword but...
Spells . skills . free feats and maybe even a switch hitter archer and charger build.


oh....damn...
wanted to try a cleric , mounted (feather domain) combat, small size.
ge can be very decent team semi-fighter, but oor charger as no + to damage to multiply.
a STR battle oracle or cleric would do better vital striking than a small mounted one.

so good mounted are still the ranger and the cavalier . and maybe the mauler fighter with the familiar pet.


Is the damage double on a critical?
What about a mounted charge ?


also, a cleric can be much better .
guided hand feat , channel negative energy will make you focus on same ability for super DC and to hits .

smite offer some more damage .
fireballs are nice addon - i had 2 clerics like that.
1 was theologian - super wisdom caster.
the other was flame + animal (local god of elementals) - i used a charging build with fireballs all with wisdom and con focus.
th saves was amazing, the to hit also.

but.... if oracle...
i would think on the folloing option :
Blacked hand add the azmaing scorching ray spell - although with a tax of to hits.
mystery i would take Lonar for a super buffed Tiger pet , fireballs and off melee options or a Battle mystery for decent manuver and free feats.
the spells are from the 2 archtypes - but be aware - the STR and CHA and CON will stretch you thin in abilites.


half elf Ancient lorekeeper , Battle or Lonar mystery are amazing blaster and combetant.

you get to add 1 spell of wizard , even if at highter level .
Spirit guide is both great, adding a hex and spells and costly, 3 revelations are harsh.


also, i love hide in plain sight , if you take spring attack you already quiify for shadow dancer - 1 level is amazing for a rogue. espscially a small one.

with shadow armor, boots of springting (move 40) you easy dash in, the movement trigger the scout free sneak, than move out into nothingness.


add scout archtype as well, learn spring attack.
every move of 10' is auto flat footed = sneak.

learn charging thrower = "chrage" 10' and throw a dagger = sneak.

you are only helpess Vs elementals and oozes (the later are the bane of all melee) - so use magic device and a decent wand or staff of fire are in order.


Clerics. Have better to hit then most classes if they focus on it...lower damage but not to hit.

Fate's favorite and divine favor are +4
Glory domain add heroism for another 2
Magic weapon make the long spear decent
If there is a bard great if not go evangelist for bard boosting.

I had a glory (heroism) and trade domains once.
Guided hand with channel smite made me focus on wisdom with str of 14. Damage wasn't amazing but was decent. Fun play.


The highter the level the lower the gap.
Mounted combat , rage or power attacks all add to the same spot.
The only big issue is cmb as it's a bad scaling bonus for all but even that is doable.
Yes the dpr is lower but the stealth and saves are nice. The mount or mauler familiar.


MadScientistWorking wrote:
Oxylepy wrote:
As a companion, though, it is completely unlike anything else. It would have been really nice if it were designed as an actual shadow version of you, or at least became a Greater Shadow at 10 SD levels
I think the Shadow Oracle can animate their shadow into a scaling version. In fact it's pretty much a better full version of the Shadowdancer in a lot of ways.

What is shadow Oracle ? Link please. In the srd there isn't such a option.


Make the super tank grapple and dirty trick for blind.fighter only pin down. Many ways to force a for at yoh


gang up is amzaing in the right party. also for sneak attack users.


Continuing my thread...
Here is a nice swash build I came out with.

1. Whirling Dervish allow all weapons of light , piercing or scimitar to add both hit and damage from dex not str.

2. Can't wield weapon in off hand or a shield. Not a word nor a faq on flurry.

3. One level of sohei allow 2 to all saves (week spot), flurry in mithral breast plate .

4. Snake style offer piercing with unarmed. Strikes, activating the dex to hot and damage and flurry.

5. Also, one hand trigger level to damage.

So...
You can use a scimitar for 15-20 critical or flurry for extra attack.

Dex based, half orc with 1 level dip offer great ac (dodge, dex , parry, expertise, crane style) or flurry of fists. All with level -1 to damage, fighter only feats, weapon training, critical range and other stuff.

One can even take one more dip into rogue (thug) and swift action frighten foes.

That and the eastern daring Cavaliers seem really good builds to play


Chess Pwn wrote:

So I believe it only takes 1 standard action to remove ALL dirty tricks they have on them. [/QUOTE

]
Why is that? Is says removing the condition...not conditions...


Chess Pwn wrote:

Personal question here, sorry op,

If you've put on 3 dirty tricks on someone how long does it take them to get rid of all three?

why sorry? open debate is the best.

3 move or 3 standards.... thats why the skulking slayer, with 2 weapon style and a dog adding one more? is... wow.
you win a fight without a single blow.

the familiar with lorewarden , when the famiiar share your feats is also amazig


in martial arts, unlike fencing, ytou never parry with the weapon alone.
rry can be channling the movement of the foe onto another direction. it can block the hand and not the weapon, it can "not be there" and allowing the weapon to hit your flowing cloak......

in a game people fly.... how to parry isnt the issuu right?


Cavalier huntmaster 3, boon companion
Than 1 skulking slayer then either 3 more warden or 2 low templar.
Rest are cavalier.

Cmb is +2 from low templar , +2 from coordinate maneuvers.
Pet can dirty for entangle with +2 or flank for +4. Or it can aid another master.
Every critical add effect freely.
Every sneak (flanks) can be dirty trick .
Add enforcer and you can really stack effects.

The mailer is also a really nice deal also. Especially for a small fighter ...

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