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Pathfinder Society Member. 2,026 posts (2,028 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.


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i want to play a fun character than will be able to do the follwing :

1. have "some" skills or spells or way to be useful in non-combat play-time. not a "face" , but... something to do.
2. be OK++ at damage, when no maneuver is optinal.
3. master dirty tricks and maybe grapple (dirty is s must). meaning, i want to able to use dirty tricks in most combats , so decent progressing CMB is needed.
4. am considering to take 2 level in low templar - that add both +2 to CMB and amazing crit effects.

1. ofc the game has magical items, but we cant create or buy - only what DM "give" or we find .
2. 22 point by.
3. core books (combat, magic, advance, player) are ok. class guide is partly, other need DM saying ok.
4. no slayer or unchained allowed.
5. DM allow most dirty tricks to work with a weapon.
6. Skulking Slayer is allowed, so is lore wardens.

the game start at low level and expected to reach high levels.

so.... here are several decent options that can also do other stuff...

The Magus:

Int based offer very nice skills.
spells offer a nice "plan B".
dex based offer good defence - but cost load of feats to work.
the options of True strike and attack at same round is lovey.
full build will have to wait until level 9 for BAB 6, quick dirty tricks at full bab "worth".
magics tend to have VERY high weapon bonus, decent defences and options.

The Ranger X \ Skulking Slayer 1:

1/2 orc
STR based, so decent damage.
2 weapon style, Boon companion make a full pet.
each attack can be a dirty trick.
bonus feats help a lot.
LOAD of skills. (int 14 can be 9 per level) - leaving room for knowledge and information gathering.
+2 to all saves (with trait) .
team feats can add more bonuses.

Lore warden X \ Skulking Slayer 1:

seem a bit weaker than the options of the ranger,
but best CMB AND CMD
weapon training.
fighter only feats.
however... since you got load of feats, one can even learn spring attack and dip 1 into shadow dancer. since sneak = dirty trick, you can skirmish in and out - vanishing leaving the foe blind and helpless.

The Swashbuckler:

dex based ofc.
swash offer no real maneuver bonuses, but the parry and style is nice.
best critical build - at level 5 +.
can work nicely with intimidate as extra debuf.

The Oracle :

Battle mastery offer full dirty trick progression.
the elf archetype, taken with a 1/2 elf, offer good saves and wizard spells.
very MAD build, poor saves.
full 9 level caster is a great plan B...

The Cavalier - Huntmaster :

either a 1/2 orc for a skulking slayer dip or halfling for riding the dog.
the dog add yet another dirty trick with decent enough chance to land.
coordinate maneuvers will add you both +2.
halfling can ride the dog .
Plan B when no dirty tricks, can be either charging or defending allies with bodyguard feats and aid another.

order of the Dragon for party defenses.
order of the Sword for feats, will saves, and a killing charges. (halfling only).
order of the Paw if dog learn bull rush.
Order of the Eastern Star for RP and using the useless expertise.
order of the cockatrice if adding intimidate to the combo. (more 1/2 orc).

also nice if you got greater magic weapon....

Evangelist is another cool option, if no bard at the team .
Divine favor quicken is +4 , heroism is +2. Bard is another +2 all at level 9...and a strong 1 round.

Shaman or Oracle can work well as well, although Oracle suffer from low saves.

Don't choose.
Guided hand is the key.
Human or dwarf for more saves .

Str 14 top con 14 to 16
Rest wisdom.
Your to hit us high, good saves. Nice spell dc.
Melee need only 3 feats. Power attack, channel smite and guided hand. Rest will go to scribe scrolls and meta magic or sacred summon.
Your we weapon hits hard, your spells even harder. A summon here and there even the odds.

Items ,
Mask of giants is amazing.
Tremor boots for earth glide.
at low levels if going 1 animal type.

One small qa,
On the lion shaman build, you offered to summon feline like wolves.... Wrong type ;)

Other than that great guide.

More tactics:

Tremor boots are amazing for earth elemental form scouting.

Rime spell is well worth it, on frost bite, no saves stacking effects, add enforcer and wow...

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Boars are my favorites. Accepted every where and powerful enough.

Your guide is slowly getting amazing.

Here are a few tips I like.

Cave can add tremor sense, on a fly by attack or spring attack , as earth elemental, you can enter the ground and be safe.

Lion has super summon , glory domain for even better buffs .

So, sacred fist 1-4 and a magus 2 are the best way to add more attack.
Both open a lot of versatility as well, with scrolls.

Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

This is gonna seem counterintuitive at first, but hear me out.

Daring Champion
Favored Class bonus: +1/2 to damage vs target of your challenge
Trait: Warrior of Old
Feat: Steel Soul
weapon of choice: [adamantine] heavy pick

Between Precise Strike and Challenge you're adding damage equal to 2 1/2 times your level on damage. And you have a +5 to nearly all saves before factoring in stats or bonuses from class.

5 to saves is a lot.

But the abilites are horrible. Minus charisma , no dex

BadBird wrote:

Swashbuckler has major swift-action congestion problems, so menacing swordplay is actually kind of awful. Precise Strike will do its normal bonus unless you attack with an offhand; using TWF to gain an offhand dagger attack and then giving it up for Duelist parry means you aren't making an offhand attack.

If you want Monk-style flurry, I'd seriously look at 4 levels of Sacred Fist of Sarenrae with Crusader's Flurry. You can then use Dervish Dance for easy dex-to-damage scimitar that works with all Swashbuckler features, so you don't have to use a crappy Agile sai. A little wisdom AC works just fine for a dex-based character. For that matter, charisma isn't nearly as important as it seems for a Swashbuckler - Charmed Life has massive action problems, and 8 CHA plus one Extra Panache is the same as 16 CHA for Panache use.

All the exames I wrote for getting extra attack will not use the off hand weapon.

The fighter - is using a buckler for shield slam, buckler are allowed.

The sohei will flurry with a momk, light piercing weapon.

The magus. Will use spell strike to cast a level 0 spell, for a free attack.

Also, unarmed strikes and 2 weapon style allow off hand to be weapon less or a kick...

Daring champion I agree, isn't dip friendly.
Order of the dragon with helpful trait , buterfly sting, swift aid and bodyguard is a amazing #2 melee, that can do his part on damage.

Swashbuckler has a few things open to him as well...

1. Intimidate as swift acrion, add 1 thug level , skill focus and send the for a running.
2.parry is amazing , add dueling 2 and parry 2 a round.

I need not carry a weapon in hand #2, but... Will those work on both build with precise strike still working?

1. Dip 2 the fighter above
2.dip 1 sohei monk and flurry a sai?
3. Dip magus 2, adding zero level spell for a free attack?

Adding full level (minus the dip...) and having extra attack will make it really strong

Alao, adding crane style seem like a must if not using a buckler

also, for adaring champion, i wonder if a Samurai is better than a cavalier.
team feat sharing fit the role - but resolve is potent...

halflings have +1 luck - add fate's favorite and it is now +2....
smite is great, but 1 foe a day ? we play long days mostly and Vs many foes - so it feels less potent .

Why isnt it also Effective? losing the parry is a big pay, indeed .... but...

is this not adding TON of options ?
a 2 level dip into buckler dueling fighter, so I can 2 weapon style ?

quick dirty trick feat + mouser = 2 dirty tricks each round.
swift action = intimidate, than dirty trick = they run.

or no archtype, and save the "off hand shield bash" of the buckler for a parry ? giving full attack & a parry...

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Daring Champion is better on raw damage offensively (Challenge will do that), and has better Saves IMO (high Fort is better than high Ref on a Dex character, and Charmed Life is...situational). It also has Order bonuses, many of which are very nice.

On the other hand, Swashbucklers get Opportune Parry and Riposte, which is very cool. So there's that. They also get Weapon Training and what amounts to free Improved Critical and slightly more bonus Feats (one more, for most practical levels).

But Daring Champion does still get Dodging Panache which lets you stop full attacks from happening a lot of the time, and as stated, it's got Challenge.

So it sorta depends on what you want. I'd personally almost always go Daring Champion (and there's no reason not to if your GM ignores the errata that took Opportune Parry away from the Daring Champion), but if you really want to abuse the parry mechanic, there are ways.

It's also very possible that Ultimate Intrigue will make the Swashbuckler better, given that (from stuff people who have the book have said) an Archetype in there gives up Charmed Life for a scaling bonus against mind-effecting stuff. That might really help the Swashbuckler's main problem (Saves) enough to make it a better choice.

take away for a minute the Smite - how is the Cavalier better melee?

it seem exactly the same - a little lower :
less crit, no fighter only feats, no weapon training.
also, halfling or 1/2 orc fix the saves with racial +2 (with a trait. )
lastly - the archtypes of swashbuckler seem decent like Mouser - adding cool funny combat and dirty tricks.

JulianW wrote:

I was looking at daring champion cavalier yesterday

Was only looking at up to level 7 - but the Order of the Eastern Star has potential, granting DR & save bonuses when you use combat expertise and negates the combat expertise penalty on some attacks. Seemed to be a good base for having high AC and defences despite only wearing light armour (say if you want to be running around a ship). Plus cool strong roleplay flavour about secretly hunting occult horrors & unimaginable threats from beyond.

Ironically it was for Skull & Shackles - the using idea of the banner abilities via the ship's colours appealed.

nice order that is also FULL of RP.

I like the concept.
Does any one have a full build?
Small vs human?
Daring vs swachbuckler?
Worth a 2 level dip into buckler dueling fighter, so I can 2 weapon style ?

1 person marked this as a favorite.

order of the beast can offer super mountes, flying and whats not .
order of the sword is the BEST chargers. i love them.
a few more options :

1) Emissery archtype offer free nice feats in exchange of the team feats man dislike.

2) horse lord give up some , but gain a full charger with a scimitar for X5 damage spring attacks by level 9.

3) monstreous mount feat add flying mounts to the game

4) ghost rider can fix the "where to put the mount" issue.

cant seem to be able to read all at the same time...

Wielding a lance on a mount makes the lance a one handed weapon?
Of so, a cavalier x, swashbuckler 1, can finesse a lance?

Sohei with animal ally are amazing, Skirmisher and team fighting. Less as chargers. Different style.

Ranger, beastrider have the best mounts , utility, skills and , if small, can switch full attacks with skirmishes and charges.

Cavalier are the top damage charges , less utility, that can also tank well.

Barbarian are strong melee .

Another cool concept.
Use magic device allow casting as your caster level.
Triat will allow caster level of full level minus 1.
2 weapon style with a staff, skill focus use magic device and cast fireballs a
As a switch hitter concept.

First iff6, thank you for a well , pictured illustrated , guide.
A few missing things.
1.hybrid druids, human add to 2 abilities x add to str and wis.cast than wild shape and run in.

2.multi class dips, like a monk


But, with dex of 14, rapid shot and deadly aim, how do you ever hit???

I don't like switch hitters.

First off, ranger get a feat to shoot in melee, so why switch?
Getting cln, wis, str and dex will mean mediocre damage, med to hits... Also, no room for special stuff.

Rangers can fill any dpr roll.
Sword and board are decent tanks , with their wolf.
2 weapon str build, crit fishers are fun and deadly .

Mounted combat If small race is wow, as beast master can have a flying mount (or a gecko) at level 4, making them better than cavalier.

Archery is super dpr

Horse lord is amazing arcytype. Build a sec scimitar halfling, dervish dance , crane style. Decent damage, super ac, greatsaves

My halting cavalier had many times where charges were not possible, due to formation and more, so what?
This is where I smite, power attack and dirty trick. I didn't have tactition, as emmesary but, a full mount and me did our share.
I didn't win the dpr that fight, who cares? I was still very decent.

Also, never build a one shtick pony... Order of the dragon, with swift aid.
Team feats.
Dirty tricks.
All assist you.

well... you got several options , all work great.
ALL can benefit your charisma - add eldritch heritage at high level, orc bloodline and have > human STR.

here is a short list :

Cavalier #1 : the full mounted build :
Emissery archtype. order of the sword.
ride a dog \ boar \ wolf .
by level 9 you hit like a super truck, adding the mount's str to your X3 charges. even if you cant charge - smite + mount + power attack with a lance is WAY enough for killing a foe.

Cavalier #2 :the Tank.
order of the dragon, beast rider.
ride a tiger, take helpfull, bodyguard , reflexes, swift aid and all around you get super AC.

cavalier #3 : horse lord.
order of the beast or order of the sword with the feat that add a worg as a mount. no charges, you spring attack with a scimitar for 15-20 crit of X5 damage. ALL the time . oh, and smite.
order of the beast add ANY mount, later on, even a dragon.

barbarian - mounted fury. you will do enough + damage, it less of a charger more a tag team killers.

Ranger - beast rider - flight at level 1! decent damage with favorite enemy, always charging with a medium flyer - its great.

My vote is on the slayeror ranger.they are the most balanced package ever of in combat and out

Level 9.
Wisdom after item :22
Dex : mere 14
Mage armor
Magic vestment +3
Shield of faith +3
It's a.c. of 28.
Drop the crusader flurry and fight with a magical staff.alter the 2 feats into dodge and crane style.
A.c. of 33.... It's high, very high.

5 Level spells, 1 meta feat, healing at 1.5 power or animal companion, cast fireballs.

Attack is:
Heroism (glory)+2
Wisdom +6
Weapon +3
Divine favor +4
Bab +6
Power att -2
Haste +1
Flurry -2
All and all, +18/+18/+18/+13
1d6+3 (str)+4(df)+6(power att)
1d6+13 x4 , pre special spells .
It's not amazing, it's nice.

It's a great archetype...
Take 1 monk level, and guided hand and crusader flurry feats.
Flurry a great axe, using wis to hit.
With power attack , that was 5 feats.
Rest are meta feats.

Take main as fire and healing, alter healing spells to gory domain.
Fire balls, super heals (or animal companion instead). Great casting dc and great to hit...

mounted combat and indomitable mount are what is keeping your mount, at level 1-20 alive...

Arachnofiend wrote:
Onyx Tanuki wrote:
Or you could always take undersized mount. But I suppose that defeats the purpose of taking a human if you're just going to use that bonus feat to ride a medium mount, huh? At least then you'll still get 2d6 instead of 1d10 on your greatsword.
The Human is also getting a strength bonus rather than a penalty like any small race would get (besides the wayang but they come with a wisdom penalty which may actually be worse).

undersize mount has many issues:

1. out side of golden axe game, it look silly.
2. without magic, your mount cant carry you, especially with heavy armors.

also, small have +1 to hit, yes the STR is lower - but the damage is enough.
also - charisma bonus, other than skills, open eldritch heritage - to even the STR score or risky striker etc.

I like also , horse lord with monstrous mount, worg, for a spring attack x3 damage, crit for x5.

And.... Furian, I like dogs as well... They can enter a queen court, inn and anywhere.

fighter will have A lot more maneuvers.
also, favorite class bonus is adding CMD to 2 maneuvers, i took trip and grapple.
i had super high grapple CMB, AND IF i closed my hands i move action pinned. there was no way to ever get out.
as a fighter, i had, at level 15 :
greater dirty tricks
greater trip
greater grapple
dazing assault
a cruel weapon
1-2 crit feats.

i added so many effects the foe, with full hp did not know he lost....

1 person marked this as a favorite.

undersized mount + monstrous mount for a worg.

1. dont be human, be a small race.
2. ride a med mount

order of the beast , sword or dragon all fit.

BadBird wrote:

Battle Cleric is still a very solid option when done well. Divine Favor + Fate's Favored goes beyond overcoming just the BAB gap. If a Barbarian using Rage and Power Attack with a two-handed weapon at level 9 is "9BAB +2STR -3PA = +8" base attack and "+3STR +9PA = +12" damage, a similar Cleric with Divine Favor and Power Attack is "6BAB +4DF -2PA = +8" base attack and "+4DF +6PA = +10" damage.

Guided Hand is a really great option on a lot of builds, but it's not always better than going Dual Talent Human - Guided Hand does nothing for damage, so it's not at all a straight ability score savings.

not always can you count on super wisdom items, so after decent wisdom, and some CON, your STR will never be sky high unless you also go heritage path.

guided hand, with 20 wisdom, and str of 14, VS str of 18 and wisdom of 16 is only 3 to damage. the DC effect of the guided hand, in my eyes, is well worth it.

but yes, a dervish dancer wisdom and dex path can surly work well. go no armor with Ecclesitheurge - and gain super domain and powers.
combo like, glory-animal-fire, or glory-healing-fire offer both great spells and great melee.

Make sure the fighter is lore warden,
It stacks great, super cmb.

Also, guided hand is a must for hybrid builds. Best of the 2 worlds...

Atarlost wrote:

Oracles and clerics don't fill the same role at all. It's extremely difficult to fill the actual healer role with an oracle. It can be done with lots pages of spell knowledge, but the cleric list is just not structured for classes that only get a few spells. HP healing is mostly you doing the job of a few first level wands. Or enabling sloppy high risk play by the rest of your group. Every few days an in combat heal might be useful and a little insurance is nice, but only insuring against HP is not worth a party slot. Even the full insurance clerics can offer wouldn't really worth a party slot if clerics weren't also capable of being effective combatants at the same time.

The lack of an aura for sacred summons and the large number of not very different summon monster spells to learn pretty much rule out the oracle for the other major cleric role.

The lack of fortitude hurts oracles as front liners. It's not terribly healthy for bad touch builds either. They can melee when not fighting something with a touch fort save effect, but they're going to need something to do to stay away from poisoners, energy drainers, and the like. Battle oracles aren't nonfunctional -- weak fortitude doesn't keep bards out of the front line -- but it's better to not have a weakness than to have it and I would recommend battle clerics over battle oracles even if they're a little weaker in the hurting things department.

What oracles are good for is being a theme sorcerer with more durability. If you like pattern spells you play a heavens oracle. Accept no substitutes. If you like fire a flame oracle will perform nearly as well as a sorcerer, better in some ways, and have armor and more HP. If they got scorching ray instead of resist energy I'd say they were just better. A number of mysteries are provide the same sort of sorcerer-like play.

Blacked hand offer scorching ray

Battle clerics have 3 setbacks that need working.
MAD,str, wis , con, some cha is hard.
Party expect you to heal if you channel possitive.
Time taken to boost.
Easy fix :
Channel negetaive, rose channel smite and guided hand and focus on wisdom, you now can switch hit , spells and melee .
Now the time for boost, my 2 domains are feather and heroism , or feather and trade .
Lvl 1, channel smite and guided hand, with wisdom of 17 you hit well. Channels smite add some damage.
Lvl 3, power attack.
Lvl 5 boon companion
Lvl 7, imp share spells.
You buff 2 rounds the pet, adding the same effect on you. You tiger/ roc / whatever. Attack, buffed and strong, while you build up power.
Than, you switch as your pet is healed and moved back.
Lvl9, sacred summons
Lvl 11&13 argument summon

Your casting ability is super high, you to hit is great. Damage is ok only but pet is there to balance the score.and you are a full lvl caster, with heroism aura and more.

Mystic Madness wrote:
Silver Surfer wrote:

IMO if you have a strong battle focus then you would be much better off with a Warpriest. If however you are primarily support then cleric is a much better bet.

I think the days of 'Battle Clerics' are over. As you level up trying to hit things productively with a physical weapon becomes increasingly inefficient.

I disagree that "Battle Clerics" are not viable these days. At 9th level for example, the character will have a BAB of +6, assuming a +4 strength item a +6 to hit from strength, assuming an extended heroism is up a +2 morale bonus to hit, using a quickened divine favor a +4 (fate's favored) luck bonus to hit and damage, using boots of speed gives a +1 sped bonus to hit, and assuming a +1 keen weapon a +1 enhancement bonus to hit. That is a +20 for 1d8 + 14 damage (15-20 x2). Using power attack, that is a +18 for 1d8 + 20 (15-20 x2) damage.

What weapon is 1d8 and 18-20 crit and on its list???

The much lower save scorers of Oracle also effect the class.
The Oracle should choose a path and focus on it. A cleric can change with the levels.
Guided hand. Vs no way to get charisma to attacks, give the cleric a better options of a caster that melee I think.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
I'd say Druids can also be decent at skills and physical combat. Wildshape + buffs + an animal companion makes the Druid a fine melee combatant, and 4+Int skill points gives them a decent base to build off of for skills (though more focused on exploration skills than social ones).
This is true, but that last bit is kinda a deal breaker for me. Druids make terrible social characters and I can't shut up to save my life, not in an RPG anyway. And talky Druids are way too awkward to make to be a lot of fun for me.

still not right...

lion shaman has glory domain, that add a huge sum to the skills.
i had a halfling druid that had charisma of 14, he isnt a bard - but he did well.
my lion shaman was a former knight - that a mishap fused it with it's lion mount.

Mathius wrote:
I think 6th level casters are more fun since they are not as powerful. They also can usually swing a weapon and that is fun.

really? and a cleric \ oracle \ druid cant swing just as well as a magus?

what is my CR? if i am a level 15 character ? can't use a weapon, one can use a wand or rod or scroll...
One can use unarmed 2 weapon attack.
One can magus spell strike...

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