666bender's page

Lemartes wrote:

So how does that work with initiative?

Bad guys win initiative: They surround you in flanking positions and each get an attack. PROVIDED you survive, you may use whirlwind attack.

You get initiative: You run into a mob of enemies, possibly provoking, and attack one. Then on your NEXT turn after they have surround you in flanking positions and each gets an attack, you can make a single attack against all those within reach IF you are still alive.

Notes: It's generally better to delay and let multiple enemies come to you and then bop all of them with it. If they don't conveniently get into position for you, you can still take your turn to do something useful later in the initiative round.

I happen to have an amazing trip/reach build that trips everyone within his reach. Tripping his foes also gives him bonus attacks against each one (which I sometimes use to disarm them just for kicks). It's an awesome mass debuff in the right situation.

may i get a linki-link for your happy trigger tripper?

I personally dont think Whirlwind is right for ur character because u dont have the build to effectively use it. Getting the Trip feats and furious focus is spreading what feats u have very thin as stated above. But also were Whirlwind truly shines is when u have a reach weapon and/or ability to increase ur size. Best thing for that is a whip build with a wand of enlarge person or a friendly wizard willing to cast enlarge on u. That would give the whip character a 25ft reach dealing a 1d6 plus what ever is on the whip. Admittedly that not much damage but it gives the fighter the ability to do static damage to every thing around it while picking off multiple weak targets that survived the 2handed attack of the barb in the party if u have 1.

the cost is painfull... when cut down to trade off its :

dodge+mobility+spring+WWA =
+1 AC alawys
+5 AC when moving
ability to position well / play ping-pong with 1 BBEG (spring)
""fireball"" - attacking 5-15' all around when alot of mini opponent.

the alternative is :
+7 to damage when using felling smash (vital strike)
+10% for double damage (imp crit)
either +1 to hit and CMB AND +2 damage (focus+SP )
OR grapple (imp unarmed+imp grapple)

so, looking at the tree feat, it's a choise between becoing a real killer Vs 1 opponent Vs being OK Vs 1 opponent AND being a mobile killer of doom.

interesting possibilities.

is there a way to threat 5 ' as well ?
i mean, with a reach weapon and lunge you cover 10+15 ' distance.
but, as non orc (no bite) holding a 2 handed weapon, is there a way to inclode 5' reach as well ?

well... it's a COOL maneuver to use, that's for sure.
effective? really depend's on the battle field.
the main problam is the cost- ont can get weapon focus+greater focus+specialaztion + imp critical for the cost of that chain.
dodge - is semi effective - AC tend to be futil unless focused upon
mobility - can be usefull, but less and less with spring attack
spring attack -used to be one of the best, now almost futile axept round 1. no vital strike,no movement when opponent is 5 feet away, no manuever options. sad how pathfinder were so afraid they almost killed it.
WWA - can go from nice to the best thing in the game... but it is ncie to have for the few times the goblin hoard is blown in a full round swing :)

multi-legged large+ creatures can still be attacked :)

but the thing is, as levels go up, DM's tend to bring more BBEG and less many folk. to prevent them form a headache

as for vital strikes. i agree. i love that feat. especially along side felling smash.
you move, make a huge attack with improve critical, hit 90% of the times (with furious focus..) than try to trip if possible. success means AOO form every one, and another when he try to get up.
nice combo.
we have a house role that any player can choose 1 skill as trained for free. i took acrobatics. so i can move about.

for my fighter .
lvl 7, almost 8.
have most of the trip "tree" (improve, greater ,felling smash) + expertise + power attack + furious focus + combat reflexes.

at level 8 i'll be able to have dodge-mobility-spring attack .
level 9 Whirlwind Attack.

a few Q's:
1. spring attack was nerfed heavily sadly, now it's a full round action so - no felling smash or vital strikes. also, you cant you cant use it all the time, if opponent is upon you...

2. Whirlwind Attack - seem great, but even with "lunge" (at level 10) how many time you really use it ?
is it worth the 4 feats?

i agree...
fighters are not the "best", and they have minus side, but they can be taken to many fields and can roel 1-2 combat maneuvers while still doing decent damage.

666bender wrote:

if we speak of maneuvers, can the dirty trick match the CMD of high-mid levels?

(levels 8-13 +/-)

It is a DM call.

666bender wrote:

options:
grapple - great maneuvers but suffer the same problem as dirty trick... not connected to a weapon, so not boosted easily.

HAmatula strike. this let You basically grapple with your weapon. And yes it can have a high enough CMB.

** spoiler omitted **...

sadly " (only from books: phb, advance, combat, magic)"

we dont use any campaign feats...
with the 4 basic books, i fear grapple don't count as a weapon usage and as such have the same issues as other maneuvers - not high or even near the foes CMD.

if we speak of maneuvers, can the dirty trick match the CMD of high-mid levels?
(levels 8-13 +/-)
i LOVE trip which i'll keep.. - that do well for me now, but as levels go by creatures tend to fly / huge / no legs more - making trip a nice thing to carry... and nothing more.

so, i got room with feats for 1 more maneuver - dirty trick seem amazing but i fear - since it wont use a weapon like trip - it will fall behind at higher levels.

so, what else to grab?
options:
grapple - great maneuvers but suffer the same problem as dirty trick... not connected to a weapon, so not boosted easily.
sunder - i don't like much
disarm - most foes i can disarm i can also trip.. so a waste for me.
if i wont find any other maneuver, i'll just focus on DPR boosting, vital strike + lunge + improve critical and such, but i truly like to flavor the combats - i hate doing damage only...
and other feat combos you know and love? (only form books: phb, advance, combat, magic)

does this feat allow 2 grapple attempts from round 1?
or the move action cost is only after getting the first hold ?

Greater Grapple (Combat)
Maintaining a grapple is second nature to you.
Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6, Dex 13.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
Normal: Maintaining a grapple is a standard action.

Bearded Ben wrote:

2 (class) + 2 (int) + 1 (human) = 5

So, like I said, Fighters don't get 5 skills a level. Any class benefits just as much from investing in INT and being human.

The idea that Fighters are less MAD than Rangers (who get bonus feats that allow them to ignore ability prerequisites), is kind of funny though.

a ranger need str+dex+con+wis... no room for int.

so, most rangers take int of 10 or less.
fighters dont need wis, yes a optimaze fighter shall grab it just for the will save - but i for 1 think its useless ...
as a fighter that want manuevers a int dcore is a pre-req - not a options.

No specialization? You can specialize and take a maneuver too.

Quote:

how? not emough feats... specialize take weapon focus + specialize feat.
also, focusing on 1 weapon, in a low magic world, make you miss on the nice items you DO find.

That's flat-out untrue about fighters. They rely on items more than wizards. A Strength-boosting item and a magic sword stack more efficiently than a wizard's stat-boosting item. Both contribute to attack bonuses, although I'm nebulous about CMB - apparently not. (You also need your cloak of resistance.)

Quote:

EVERY one need and beneift from items ... a fighter just care less on whatever found. he can use most of whats founf (unless it's spell complition)

Use a polearm, attack 1 attack at range 10', at your turn you try to move, it provokes and I stop you.

Opponents without reach are pinned away

The first two strategies seem like they'll work quite well. The last one doesn't though. If you're 10 feet...

pin down is made for it .

The only thing a fighter misses is flavor out of combat. They got no skills, no abilities that can be used out of combat and their trade requires them to spend their feats on combat stuff and when you do spend it on something else, it's on Iron Will =p

No skills? 5/level is almost like a ranger. Since fighter are less MAD than ranger I can effort int of 14….

Flavor ? make one … role play it, take skills and trait and maybe a feat for skills to boost your off game .
Write doc's that will build your character. I think a fighter make you, like a rogue, focus more ion the game and less on the math.

Fighters hit stuff well? Who knew. How're those out of combat class features working out for you? Or those nice saves?

Not sure if fighters get hate because they hit stuff. I thought the problem was that its that its the only thing they really do.

Actually I am doing well.. with 5 skills / level, I have acrobatics + some knowledge's + intimidate + diplomacy.

So off combat I can manage (not the best - that is true - but can play it out … )
Yes, fighter mostly hit stuff…. BUT my claim is avoid PNLY hitting for + to hit and + to damage… take maneuvers and versatile the combat system.
Fighters are the only one that can master more than 1 maneuvers and all the ways. as for saves - yes, every calss got a weak spot.

666bender wrote:

The best about fighters that he rely very little on magical items and such, and more on his skills in arms.

I agree with most of the stuff you said about fighter, I love fighters and they are awesome. In fact, I'm playing one. However, I disagree with what you said about magical items. Yes, a good player should need magic items. But unlike paladin, fighter has no spells. If you team up with casters who doesn't buff, you will have problems fighting many things.

If you have magical items alone or with quick draw feat on the other hand, you will be able to be the most reliable like a fighter supposed to be. Ghost Touch Arrows with a Seeking composite longbow + 3, help fighting ghost when you couldn't have before. Heavy armor and low dex enemies can but dealt with Rapier of Puncturing. So many things fighters can do with their high BAB if they have the items they need!

Ofc magical items help ... allot.

what i meant, is that fighters don't absolutely need 1 sort of item in order to prevail.
They can, in fact, use and benefit form almost all they find… much like rogues can

i see a lot of hatred for fighters and there weakness…
I must say I don’t understand why … we are now level 8, but I'll post you my full image - for a level 12 fighter.
I don’t / won't do more DPR than other's I think the ranger will out shine me in pure damage - but I don’t think that’s what fighters are all about…
No one will ever remember the session you caused 30 and not 25 damage per hit - but all will remember the funny maneuvers you did..
I think fights should never be all about a dice and pluses, but go for tactics.
no specilazation makes you able to use whatever found easy.
weapon focus, i will take later on cause of pre-req
And my character can do a lot of many things…
The best about fighters that he rely very little on magical items and such, and more on his skills in arms.
I make sure to take int as fighters, so I'll have 5 ranks / level…almost like a ranger.
The build is down.

What else am I missing that can be great?
*** only feats from advance + combat + PHB + magic are allowed ***

The tactics:
Vs opponent I can trip:
Close in, hit hard 1 attack with a dirty trick, if I effect I can a trip for swift action, if I trip it provokes form me and the others.

If I cant trip you:
either power attack or dirty tricks for varies effects.

If I can't maneuver at all:
Use a polearm, attack 1 attack at range 10', at your turn you try to move, it provokes and I stop you.
Opponents without reach are pinned away.

Scarlett A.K.A Scar
fighter, no archetype, level 12 (as I vision her)
Str: 20, dex:14, con:14, int:14 wis:10 cha:8
Hp - we have a fix number per level (per class) so: 128
Trait: +1 to will saves, that with iron will ,will save my life…

Feats:

1 : power att + combat expertise + furious focus
2: combat reflexes
3: imp trip
4: imp dirty trick
5: felling smash
6: greater trip
7: fast dirty trick
8: greater dirty trick
9:lunge
10: iron will
11: pin down
12: weapon focus (needed for penetration strike)

thing is about will save bonus, will it even help ?
i mean the a sves fro fighter are so low, that.. it wont matter much,
even with a resistance cape, it is still low with wis 10 .

we play with only 1 trait,
my fighter is a manuever master (trip, dirty fighting) and power attack with a great sword.
+2 to initiative ?
+1 to will saves?

which is the most used trait?

why change it?
its super strong as is ... if you make it you either hunder your foe - in a versitle manner that can work on ANY creature (maybe not oozes or ghosts.... but all the other) even golems and such.
if you win - your foe ned to either suck it up or waste a whole round.
that... not a bad thing to gain...
also rememebr, smart useage is to wait until after your opponent's turn, so your friends enjoy the effects.
a blind opponent cant target with AOO and allow all to position for example

also, make it a bit better :
take felling smash if you are a fighter and Disorienting
if you move through a foe + enter flank, you attack once than trip with :
+4 greater trip + 4 Disorienting + 2 flank + CMB.
not bad.

i think so ...
anything that give a blnus to "to hit" like flank, magic etc also add to CMB

i am sorry, but thats not true.
saurian are great but not a must.
even a pure non archtype druid can be EVERYTHING.
take str 16 + wis 16 + con 14
and you can melle / cast / use pet etc.
summon have no dc / SR so WIS is of no importance.
make sure the pet have barkskin and armor feat and maybe dodge.

round 1 : hide behind pet and cast summon
round 2: pet + summon flank opponent while you do wild shape to some thing
round 3+ eat whatever is left.

i'd suggest you both take 1 druid and 1 summoner.
or 1 samurai and 1 druid.

2 animal companions / eidolon meaning you are 4.
summon / summon nature ally mean you are alot more.
take aug summoning, and rock hard.

druid can cast, fight, summon, animal companion with armor can tank .
summoner can buff/ debuff / summon alot of versitile thigs and can tank with his pet.

bot characters, take at least CON 14 and str 14

it depends, is your world a low or high magic zone ?
if you cant buy items, you need to get a common emough blade, or you'll be stuck really fast.

I agree that Dirty Trick gets better with more feats, but it's a slow start. I was trying to rank them on their own merits--what do you get if you only invest up to Improved or Greater?

I also have a hidden bias on Dirty Trick. The way it's defined is heavily subject to GM interpretation, and since I play PFS almost exclusively, I try to avoid areas where my character's abilities will depend on the GM.

i think that its varies againt who you fight.

trip is ubber - but useless Vs huge and flying
grapple? ubber Vs 1 creature but Vs a rending best or a hoard ?
dirty - can save a character, but ... need alot to work

i disagree on Dirty Trick
it's alot better than you give it credit.
especially with the feat fast Dirty Trick - that will allow you to make AOO and blind the opponent.

OK, another Q :
can those 2 work ?
felling smash + cleave ?

Vicious stomp (I think that's what it's called)

Attack with Felling Smash, swift action to trip, Greater Trip gives AoO for successful trip, Vicious Stomp gives AoO for him falling prone. Rinse then repeat as necessary.

greater trip seem much better for the AOO when falling ...

i also found quick dirty trick nice,
to allow :
1 attack, dirty trick attempt. swift = trip, success = AOO that you use non leather with enforcer.
against non flying non huge foes, it means:
shaken+blind+prone + some mild damage in 1 round.
against the rest of foes its power attack + furious focus all the way.

Hmm... okay. Only Core book is fully allowed, everything else is to be "reviewed", ie he'll ban anything he wants that is beyond his ability to handle. And sounds like he doesn't give out gold or magic items. (3k at 7th? That's like 4 levels behind.) And you are facing high DR without appropriate gear.

Okay then. So that he can't wield the banhammer effectively, Core fighter only.

str 19, dex 14, con 14, int 10, wis 10 cha 10
feats:
1st: WS: Greatsword, Power Attack, Improved Sunder
2nd: Intimidating Prowess
3rd: Dazzling Display
4th: WS: Greatsword
5th: Iron Will
6th: Greater Sunder
7th: Vital Strike

Using power attack, wielding a masterwork greatsword, you'll be at +11 to hit, doing 4d6+14 every time you attack as a standard action. (Since DR is a big deal, one big hit is better than two smaller hits.) If they have gear, it is probably worthless, so you can break it for them, while still doing damage. With dazzling display, you can be intimidating to a group as well.

If you are allowed it, +1 greatsword. Wear the heaviest armor you are allowed, since with armor training it won't effect your movement or dex.

Since everything here is core, he shouldn't ban it. Hopefully. At 8th, point into strength, and either greater weapon focus or (if he allows it) furious focus

thanks for the answer.

a few more feats were allowed:
furious focus
most combat maneuvers (dirty trick tree etc)
felling smash
enforcer

i think i like your build, i'll lower STR by 1 point, and cha to 8, to have int 14 (more skills, combat expertise maneuvers)
i think felling smash + trip tree + vital stike + enforcer (attack non leathel) = destroyer.
and if enemy is too big / too strong, go power attack + furious focus all out.

YES
also found: all the quick feats and enforcer.
anything else worth it ?
what do you think go well with the trip ?

S

Oh, and there is a feat that does for melee what Clustered Shots does for archery.

at level 12... it's a bit different

Do you get level 7 wealth, or is that nerfed, too?

If it's not, build a 2H fighter that does even more damage. If it is, make a spellcaster and show him what real power looks like.

Your DM is a control freak, and sounds like he uses the game for his own power fantasy fulfillment. I'd just leave as your posts have already set off numerous red flags about him, but if you need time to find another group, some passive aggressiveness is always fun to pass the time.

we have about 3K gold... alot less than normal .

and what flags?

I wonder if anything is worth building yet.

If cannot even come to an understanding with the DM as to what will, and will not suddenly be banned, then you have to assume that anything you build will be banned.

You simply set yourself up to destroy everything you create.

all PHB = ok automatically.

advance, ultimate magic or combat : need approve for each thing taken.
rest - banned.
things that are too "stand out" like scout for rouges, summoner are banned.
no magical items can be sold or bought, nor special material, but we can create with feats. gold is there yet limited.
that's it basically.
that's why i ask on maneuvers and build.

Why are you unable to gain access to special materials? Is your GM aware that the CR system includes the assumption that access to special materials is there?

If you're in a world where silver doesn't exist, any enemy with DR/silver just got upgraded to DR/+3 weapon, which is probably worth a CR bump.

In any case, make a paladin archer. There is no need for Clustered Shots because your Smite Evil negates all DR. A little less damage on average than a fighter, but far more stable and far higher burst damage.

he wants to keep the DR useful - and he prefer to allow lesser CR Vs the party, so he can use a big CR when we are BUFFED.

that way, he claim, the game keep's its hardness and difficult level, and the fear of combat stay alive.
also - we learn to appreciate every cold iron arrow or keep and use a weird weapon that no body know how to use - only cause it's +2...

inquisitor - are also banned...

i need to understand something:
if i use an attack that is a Maneuver that is an attack -
i get 1 Maneuver, than 1 free trip and if he falls down, i get AOO ?

what Maneuvers are an attack ?

Felling Smash (Combat)

You commit all your focus to a devastating blow, trying to crush your opponent to the ground.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Str 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: If you use the attack action to make a single melee attack at your highest base attack bonus while using Power Attack and you hit an opponent, you can spend a swift action to attempt a trip combat maneuver against that opponent.

no .. :) BUT paladin = extreme awful good = at what point a moral dillema shall put you in misery.

also - we fight alot of DR creatures, and we CANT buy special material stuff... so ...
clustered shot >>>> everything else in the game.

abilitys:
str 14 dex 18 con 14 int 14 wis 10 cha 8 (20 point buyout)
level 7
feats:
1-weapon focus + precise shot+ point blank shot
2-rapid shot
3-deadly aim
4-wp sp
5-point blank master
6-many shot
7-clustered shot

to hit: 7 (BAB)+4(dex)+1(wp training)+1(magic)+1 (focus)+1(point blank)-2(aim)-2(rapid) = +11(*2) & +11 & +6
damage per hit: 1d8+ 2 (str)+1(magic)+1(train)+1(point blank)+2 (sp)+4 (aim)
all and all: 1d8+11 (average = 15.5)
3 attacks at full +11 shall do 46.5 damage
if the exra attack also hits, we are talking 62 damage.

a 2 handed fighter will be doing:
2d6 (base) + 6 (STR) + 6 (power) + 2 (sp) + 1 (train) + 1(train):
=23 for the first attack, 46 if both hit.
archer can attack ALWAYS full attack, unlike the fighter that need to move alot...

so ...

what to take? (he insists i change... )

666bender wrote:

well, knowing him ? focus on the caster after round 1 ... LOL

well, the thing that bother him i presume, is that an archer is >>>> the ranger when it comes to damage, especially when we move alot, and i use full attack alot...

so - to keep the harmony - i'll balance abit...
which build to grab? take many manuvers as improve? or focus to be great at one ? (and which 1). power attack shall always be the "fall back plan".

I dunno. I have always considered the 2-h fighter to be one of the most powerful fighters. I think your GM is gonna have to learn to cope.

ARCHERY DO alot MORE DAMAGE with no magical aiding (like speed etc)

rapid shot is worthless for throwing no ? dont you use twf ?

well, knowing him ? focus on the caster after round 1 ... LOL
well, the thing that bother him i presume, is that an archer is >>>> the ranger when it comes to damage, especially when we move alot, and i use full attack alot...

so - to keep the harmony - i'll balance abit...
which build to grab? take many manuvers as improve? or focus to be great at one ? (and which 1). power attack shall always be the "fall back plan".

thanks

LOL
well, my GM REALLY didn't like the archer-fighter i made, after my character died.
more of it - he decided to ban some of the archery feats (like mastery and clustered shots) cause he claim there's no equal in any other style when it comes to damage.

so... not wanting to piss him too much, i get to make a deep retrain (ability and feat) for my level 7 fighter, this time a bit more balanced.

i was thinking on either a 2 hander + Maneuvers OR a 2 weapon thrower (with back up of a greatsword)
fighter level 7 got 9 feats.

option A : 1 big weapon:
basic build takes 5 feats. (power att, furious focus, combat expertise, weapon focus, weapon spec)
so, that allow either trip master (imp trip, greater trip, felling smash) + 1 other feat (imp dirty fighter OR enforcer)
or dirty fighting master (imp dirty fighting, greater, quick) 1 other feat (enforcer OR imp trip).
Any other / better focus / maneuver to take? (grapple ? ) trip seem ubber but SO fast creatures get flying and big….

Option B: 2 weapon :
Fight with kukri and scimitar, no Maneuvers, take all the 2 weapon feats +quick draw + deadly aim for some throw thing.

Thoughts?

8 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

hi.

i am sorry, english is not my native tounge, i need help in understanding.
do i get the AC bonus when using a bow ?
it says :
"In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn"
but - is 2 handed weapon (bow) consider using the off hand ? ot if i leave the hand (free action) after shooting - it counts?

Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.

we dont use non core books (only phb, advance, combat, arcane)
so, no durable arrows.
how can i prevent myself form running low on arrows? they run out REALLY fast with so many attacks per round.

make whole / mensding fix 1 (!) arrow per spell so it takes ages.

well... the way i see it, only full BAB can ven think of doing fency shticks in combat.
until level 8 or so, its all fine. than the CMD get sky high real fast.
also, always keep a normal shtick like power attack to attacks those immune.
as for dirty trick :
blind > entangle > all the rest.
blind allow you to move around with no AOO.

so many feats yet no room for what i wish :)
2 Q's :
1) when to take iron will ?
2) i wonder what is the best array of abilities (20 point)
feats are :
1 Weapon Focus [Longbow] Precise Shot Point-Blank Shot
2 Rapid Shot
3 Deadly Aim
4 Weapon Specialization [Longbow]
5 Point Blank Master
6 Manyshot
7 Clustered Shots

anything i can spare for iron will ?

abilities :
str = 14
dex = 15 +2 human +1 level 1 = 18
con = either 13 or 14
int = 10-14
wis = 10-14
cha =8

how is it any better than a fighter?
zen got a more skills, but less AC (even dex wis allow less)
and BAB 3/4 mean lower deadly aim.
it does have ALOT more mobility and saves though, and can grab grapple .