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666bender's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 2,151 posts (2,153 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Claxon wrote:
666bender wrote:

another cool option, but seem over powered a bit, is a archer warpriest.

i doubt my DM allow it...

the fact all the feats are as if full BAB, WP SP, destruction blessing, swift +4 from divine favor etc is .... a overkill.

IIRC correctly, warpriest count their HD as BAB for qualifying for feats but not how the feat operates. So you wouldn't for example use Deadly Aim as though your BAB were equal to your HD, you would use actual BAB. Of course, that's really the only archery feat that has a BAB dependency once you have qualified for it so it doesn't make a huge difference.

Warpriests are brutal as archer's because of all the bonus feats they get, the ability to get normally fighter only feats, the ability to qualify for feats as full BAB, and the ability to self buff like crazy with no loss of action economy.

yap, low on skills or RP off comabts, but they see no other class in melee or archery style.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I've seen Paladin Archers used to terrific effect. Smite Evil works very well with a Bow, it seems.

paladins are brutal. period. but they are also VERY hard to play in our games, especially as most players like.... low moral codes.


Diminuendo wrote:
666bender wrote:

That's really nice archetype, but will require my dm approval.

Skills, good spells, bard boosting , and great archery base damage. Not bad at all and fairing well with the magus and druid options

Remeber to buy a Tuned Bowstring at your earliest convenience.

The Breadth of Experience can somewhat make up for the loss of Bardic Knowledge.

Nice item!


The Steel Refrain wrote:

From our prior thread discussions, you may recall that I'm a big Speaker for the Past fan. Playing a Battle spirit Shaman with Speaker for the Past in ROTR, and it has been extremely solid. Lots of tools and tricks via hexes, revelations and spells, and a very capable melee ally to the main frontliners. He is also the primary source of status removal, and tends to keep a few open spell slots every day for that and utility.

I didn't go with the monk dip because of the way I built him from the start (IO have a reach build instead), but I can definitely see the advantages of that. I think we discussed those merits in a prior thread, but one note as I think about this is that you'll want to think about taking the monk dip *after* getting the armor-granting revelation, and just wearing armor before that. Bit of a wait before it all comes together.

Regarding the magus option, I have less familiarity with the class, but you've pointed out the key highlights already. I think i prefer the extra versatility of the Shaman option (leaving slots open and being able to pull from the whole spell list on a given day is really amazing).

Dipping a monk can be done as sohei, so flurry in light armor at level 1.

I just wonder , as dex build don't work well, if str monk style won't have too low defences


The Steel Refrain wrote:

So maybe if one of the other players goes for a cleric or oracle, go for the magus, and if not, go for the shaman?

Agreed that standard actions are a bit of a bottleneck for my own Speaker build (which does not feature any dips). I sometimes use a swift action for the Bane ability from Battle Spirit, but swift actions are rarely seeing a lot of use for me.

But if your plan is to dip Monk and use Hex Strike, that's going to be eating your swift actions anyways, so the fact that swift actions are otherwise typically open is actually a positive more than a negative in this case.

I forgot hex strike is a swift action...


Gummy Bear wrote:
I wish I gave the battle shaman with the speak of the past archetype a closer look. That is pretty much exactly what I wanted from my PFS oracle of battle :/

Yes, he is a lot more battle shaman than the Oracle...either full plate knight , or a robed staff flurry hermit.

Pitty so few skill points , but human or half orc can pull it off.
Half orc , with a monk dip will have a great save score as well .


we are 4 players. 1 is a dearf fighter with a splash of barbarian, main melee.
the other 2 havent decided yet.

i agree the shaman is a bit less DPR, more versitile, while the magus is high DPR and very good debuffs and defences.

magus has more attacks, and better use of all actions in a round (swift for arcane strikes etc), while the shaman need to piack the standard action very well, but will have great recovery skills with healings and removal of stuff.


Diminuendo wrote:

Ekibus is reffering to the Arrowsong Minstrel, whcih actually gets the Precice Shot feat for free at second level, can treat their Bard level as their BAB for feat prerequisites, gets the Magus' Spell Strike with ranged weapons, and gets to add spells from the Sorceror/Wizard spell list to assist their Archery.

But we are all forgetting one advantage the Arrowsong Minstrel has over ranged Magus Archetypes; Bards are spontanious casters and can choose spells to suit the situation, and can learn new spells as a Favored Class Bonus.

Arrowsong Minstrel Bards are my favorite Archers.

That's really nice archetype, but will require my dm approval.

Skills, good spells, bard boosting , and great archery base damage. Not bad at all and fairing well with the magus and druid options


ekibus wrote:
Left field idea bard had the arrowsong. minstrel you get a ton of skills, ability to buff and cmon you get gravity bow. Haven't planned it out but it seems like a interesting idea

Bards are poor archers, no free feats and no free entry will mean getting the important needed feats late game, and will take all the feats possible.


Also, what are the best stackable things to add for debuffs?
Enforcer, rime frost bites.
Cruel weapon.
Spear dancer .
Hex evil eye strikes .
And ?


the speaker of the past is indeed based on the prior talk we had, but i fair him with the classic hexcrafter to see who is more versitile?

as a shaman, there are 2 options : a armored (take heavy) can figting with a large weapon + some kicks for hex-strike (for a no save auto evil eye).
and a monkish dex based flurry of blows version.
the + side are 9 level of spells, heal and divination.

the magus win with ease in the defence zone. not AC wise, but mirror image, blink and stone skin offer a layer of defence .
a magus also win in the damage district, as he add a free spell EACH round to his full attacks with a much highter + of a weapon.
lastly, a dex magus win in the save fight . also a bit more feats.

same HP, same skills.

are the revelations and 9 level of shaman list greater or lessor then the magus? thats a hard Q....


Warpriest:.best by far damage wise, some off role with spells. Poor skills.

Druid : best spell wielder , summon, fly. Trap finding scout . lowest damage and to hit .

Magus:
Great damage and blasts. High defences. Decent to hit. Teleport.


another cool option, but seem over powered a bit, is a archer warpriest.
i doubt my DM allow it...

the fact all the feats are as if full BAB, WP SP, destruction blessing, swift +4 from divine favor etc is .... a overkill.


2 builds for great combat, off combat and utility.

shaman :
battle spirit.
will have WP specialization, bane , full lvl 9 caster .
can dip 1 into monk and be armor-less with wis and dex and revelation to AC, and than flurry a staff.

Magus:
less hexes, but arcane caster is always great.
magus have amazing action economy system, casting and attacking.
going dex-dervish dancer will add high saves and AC.
more skills.
can frostbite-rime-enforcer trick (although low on feats).

BOTH:
will take unarmed strike & hex strike for evil eye attack (no save debuff) or later, slumber.

shaman can off heal, magus can off teleport and knowledge skills better.

thoughts?


archers are deadly. no doubt about that part.
how ever, they sometime seem a bit narrow - doing the same action over and over, and if disarmed they sit aside.

so, here are 2 options :

MAGUS (archtype Eldritch Archer)
druid (nature fang )

1: the magus:
well..... it's like a nice arcane archer. you fire scorching ray arrows, and more.
at level 9 you can cost any touch spell with your bow (arcane by of the magus).
good AC, saves, nice buff and defence spells.
the only CON is no "bonus, free feats". so cover is going to be a real problam...
but, it's a nice safe , full attacking machine without AOO (NImbel shot )
INT based caster with human or 1/2 orc offer a lot of skills, and decent knowledges.
although, with spell combat, rapid shot and deadly aim the to hit might be a bit lowish.

2: druid, nature fang.
full, 9 level caster, full mount (flyer.... or a wolf)
no wild shape, but in return free feats or abilites at lvl 4,6,8,10 etc.
lvl 4,6,10 = free combat style (archery) feats from ranger.
low to hit abit, with deadly, rapid and 3/4 bab.
the free feats are great - and a full caster to asssist the party is never bad.
can aslo gain trapfinding with a high perception and stealth. less damage but nice.

overall, the magus seem a real fun playing character, full of options and quite deadly.

thoughts?


very very very handy and nice indeed.


well.... battle shaman are amazing. good spell list of cleric and wizard\druid, hex to use, medium armors, ok weapons and battle spirit work nicely.


BadBird wrote:
It certainly seems like something more suited to a divine class than an arcane one. Between the picture, the concept, and the mechanics required in Pathfinder, it screams "Warpriest" as far as I can see. A Dual Talent Human could make a devastating Two-Weapon Fighting hammer-and-shield Warpriest, and they could use Shield Trained to use a heavy shield without penalty. They can still self-cast with Fervor, but casting without fervor while using a heavy shield requires a move action to manage their weapon along with the standard to cast. Not the end of the world. Anyhow, Warpriest is *the* master of self-buffing, and has some awesome archetypes - Champion of the Faith lets you use freakin' Paladin Smite.

how are you "hey can still self-cast with Fervor" ?

fervor allow quicken, it say nothing on no somatic...


bards are so-so melee. yes, the bonus to hit and damage can be decent, but :
1. little room for STR or DEX of the 20's.
2. low FORT save and low AC and d8 hp will get you killed really fast.
yes you can blink etc, but it takes time... so it's the same issue a cleric has. they CAN melee, but by the time they finish buffing combat is over.


i had a halfling cavalier 5 that took 4 levels into SD.
i kept the mount but used a hostling armor.
so.... i couldm have a full mount (boon companion) that can enter my armor if needed stealth. i had a full shadow that had ok hp.
and i was a -1 bab small killer.

it wasnt optimized at all, but was fun to play.

slayer 6 > SD 4 > slayer X is even better.


there are several builds that ANY party want.
1. bard or better yet, a order of the dragon cavalier 4 (small, with horsemaster feat) + bard 2 >>> battle herald 10.

use aid another for super bonus that last a whole round due to team feats.
bard boost all .
all the while, ride as a halfling your medium dog \ boar\wolf into combat for great fighting style.
flagbearer add 1/2 herosim but all the time.

2. if allowed, the inspried commander cavalier (with or without battle herald) is better. a super aid another, smiteing character.

3. Evangalist cleric are ever welcomed. with divine favor + heroism and a long spear \ bow \ a nice god's weapon, and a decent domain like heroism, feather, luck etc - you can be a VERY good buffer, decent #2 fighter (with guided hand feat even a very decent one), that heal, buff and more.

4. nature fang druid archer. ALL spells go to party and self buff. feather domain = super perception and trapfinding. a full flying mount. free archery feats, great saves as you go dex based. it's a strong, medium only damage character that asssit all a lot.


if i take a divine feat ( assuming hadi allow it ofc.)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/divine-fighting-technique-combat

for rapier and Tankard. and i play a swashbuckler- that require a one handed weapon for both "precise strike " and a dex to damage feat like "slashing grace" or "dervish dance".

is the Tankard consider a weapon held ?
it's meant for swashbucklers, but they dont really allow a free hand ...


i think you had a mistake....

guide said wrote:
Sacred fist - Unlike the others this archetype is very nearly a different class. It removes most of the weaknesses of the warpriest. Flurry of blows comboed with a dip in Monk of many styles allows for the pummeling charge build and a very powerful style fusion along with an even more powerful self buffing monster. This archetype is the invulnerable rager of archetypes. It’s incredibly good if you’re willing to play it. Crusaders flurry also makes it so that you can flurry with any weapon if you dislike unarmed strikes. You can also splash fighter and flurry in full plate and tower shield if you wanted. This is solid blue but can go up to pink depending on how some rules are read.

you CANT flurry in armor at all.... how?

the ability says "like the monk"..... and monk says ... "no armor... "
also under weapons it says :
"hen wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a sacred fist loses his AC bonus and flurry of blows."

so....sacred fist str build suffer the same issue a monk is having.... LOW HP and AC and a short reach = a very dead very fast character.
glass cannons are still made of glass....

going sacred fist i'd go dex build with dervish dancer feats.


any small melee with starting str of 14 will do fine. size offer +1 to hit and the total damage isnt matter.
ofc, one can play it's power place.
go mounted.
go dex build
go rogue.


RevusHarkings wrote:
Axebeaks get a free trip attack like wolves, but only on a charge.

true, but the CANT learn imptove trip or greater without expertise.

and cant learn expertise without int of min 13....

so, how?


how your axebeak got expertise? how did he posses int of 13??


your main isuue is double:
1. the animal is still a animal.... hence, turning one into a dragon might panic it.
2. it's INT is low....


The Steel Refrain wrote:

@bender: I think Half Orc works great if the plan isn't to go for the Monk dip or a reach weapon. Grab Sacred Tattoo and Fate's Favored, wield a falchion and go to work.

why not? if any, half orcs are -1 feats - so the monk add a free one.

the +2 to all saves WITH the +2 from the monk will make all your saves decent ++.
focus on "some" damage and a lot of "bad touch" things.
1. hex strike evil eye is a real "badass".
2. what other hex can be spammed EVERY round like evil eye ?
3. the racial +2 to intimidate work great with enforcer feat and a cruel amulet.
4. traits to consider: fate's favortie, the one that add to CL so the dip will be less terrible and any fort thing.
5. monk also add stunning fist, that after the evil eye&enforcer trick, has a great chance to work.
6. a "Rime" frost bite on your hand with flurry of blows... the minus is over the roof....

shaken
(with item maybe sicken)
fatigue
entangle
evil eyed
stunned.
in 2 rounds all this can be together....scary.

the only issue with the monk build is lower AC untill really high levels, no great reach weapon and a slower progression, but when counting the benefits ..... i think it's worth the dip...
add crane style or snake style and gain even more defence.


The low dex is ok... As battle shaman get free aoo with the wp specialization hex.
I like half orc more than human.
Still getting skill/level but also:
1. Darkvision
2. Some great weapons (flail, great axe, falchion).
3. +2 to all the save ....wow and needed for a shaman. With the monk 1/2 orc will get great saves.

Yes, a free feat or a free +2 to wisdom is great. But the package is nicer on orcs.


BadBird wrote:
Hex DC only suffers by 1/2 point, and in the case of Evil Eye a save doesn't actually block the effect. By higher levels, a character should have had ample opportunity to take the revelations or hexes or whatever that really matter. Ultimately, you're sacrificing a small amount of 'more class feature' for a whole new set of features that redefine the character's abilities.

I agree it seem to balance out. Less spell , but stronger melee options.

Also open a decent style feat to use, pummeling for no DR , snake for deflection etc .

I like flowing monk for a free aoo vs opponent's.
How. Can I get wisdom for to hit ? Guided is hard to get....
Also, queterstuff seem better than a temple sword. Especially if I get a enchanted one.


MageHunter wrote:
Unchained monk has better BAB. Also, your spellcasting won't really take a hit from one level, and you're doing the bare minimum for buffing anyways. This is one of few cases where you could pull off multi classing spellcasters.

it's not the spell casting.

it's the hex, revelation, DC of hex etc that will take the hit.
yes, +2 to all the saves & imp unarmed strike of 1d6 & flurry with ok AC (with the revelation) & another feat like dodge or reflexes isnt half bad...
also, the free imp trip or stunning fist isnt bad at all .
you attack once with evil eye, (-4 saves) as non-lethal , activating enforcer > adding shaken. (now, -6 to saves. ).
if you got a cruel weapon - even better.
than add a stunning fist with a goot wisdom - not a bad "bad touch" play.

it is a nice boost for melee and lower level that will be regret upon if arrived at high level.


Mammoth is also a very very good spirit ...
you lose the lvl 16 animal companion thing, but...
more AC, overrun as your level (isnt bad), free enhecement to STR (that stack with eldritch heritage) .
not bad.


i agree. looks solid, fun with load of RP options as well.
i do wonder if the monk dip is worth it, saves , 2 feats and the option for hex strike are all amazing, but a full caster hate slower progression of spells.


than.... it's a really nice one. and a much stronger than Oracles.


The Steel Refrain wrote:
No, I get the spirit powers. I just lose the wandering spirit and wandering hex

How do ?

she does not gain a spirit familiar feature from any spirit she bonds with...

So how do you gain the. "Spirit form " (greater etc )...?


Something I might play indeed.....
First extra revelation is amazing. For you. So many great one there ....

Also.... More hex.
There is also a feat for human that allow you to gain hp and other favorite class option.

As human getting 2 abilities +2 wis and str isn't half bad .
Half orcs with there +2 to saves are also amazing


You don't get any spirit powers right ?
So you lose the free bane ?

If monk 1 putty no guided hand possibility . is there a shaman that poases some channel ?


If only it was spontaneous caster .... Wow it's a nice concept .
Dwarf or half orc might be. Great as well.
I wonder if after power attack and toughness and maybe a save feat if more revelation isn't better then let's feats


Nice

You need to do something for the low fort save. Same as Oracle problem I like half orcs cause of that issue


BadBird wrote:

I've always wanted to try a Monk 1/ Speaker for the Past type Battle Shaman, using Spirit Shield with Monk AC and flurrying a Monk weapon with Heroism and Divine Favor. Hex Strike: Evil Eye once per round with a punch in between sword strikes - Evil Eye is guaranteed to work for one round no matter what, so you can use it to break enemy defenses for a full attack, or wreck their chance to hit you after a charge.

It would be difficult to work Hex Strike into a reach build though, except maybe with Lunge.

As far as Cleric spells go, Instrument of Agony and Aura of Doom are potentially awesome spells for a melee Shaman, but they involve saves; I don't know what your DC is like. Using Persistent Spell with them is very powerful and can make up for a lower natural DC, but you would probably want to have Magical Lineage or Wayang Spellhunter to do that. The spell Admonishing Ray benefits from Divine Favor, so it's a serious knockout ranged attack; Empowered at 11, it's what I like to call a Non-Lethal Death Ray (3x4d6 x1.5 +3x4 = ~75 nonlethal).

How can you cast heroism ?


Blunderin defence. Feat.
Order of the Dragon cavalier with bodyguard.
A mount with bodyguard are the best defenders in the game .
Risky striker. Can even the power str in high levels


Mounted cavalier or ranger work better on small size ...
Swashbuckler or daring champion is perfect.
Dawnflower dervish bard halfling or a battle herald. Are amazing


I made a ranger once with 2 short spears.
2 weapon style and deadly aim, rapid ahot, and thrown feats.
It was taxing but fun.
No crit fishing but the ability to throw and attack, with some belt of. Retrieve the items was ... Nice.

Shield require dipping fighter


The Raven Black wrote:
I think the best use of a mount (especially a flying one) is the full attack you get with ranged weapons. You do not even need to invest in any Mounted Combat/Mounted Archery feat for it to be very efficient.

Archery is DPR amazing, I agree. But it is boring. You never ever do anything that isn't stand and shoot. Melee, charger etc takes tactics and effort


Chess Pwn wrote:
So I ask my question. If you're not charging, what is the point of riding your mount? The answer to this will probably greatly help the advice you get to be relevant.

Mounts have a lot to offer that isn't charging...

Highter ground for +1.
Movement that is mostly better than yours and the best part - sharing reach offer tactics. Aid another , trip and attack. Bodygaurd for defences.
Mounts have a lot more than a charging platform...


a few replies - Ranger, is ofc the chosen class over cavalier or other for the whole package- not the feats or mounted abilities.
charges require direct line, with 1 turn from wheeling charge.
not so easy or automatic... as angles will make it harder, etc.

the example of damage compariosn after level 10... without any dip - a ranger will get sirited charge at level 6 , or 7 with the needed beastmaster. and the risky striker will be gained much later than level 10.... and work VS large only.
1-power atack
2- ride by
3-mounted combat
5-boon companion (retained back at 12)
7-spirited charge
9 - wheeling
11- risky
so.... until level 7 you are X2, until level 9 you charge poorly, with no turns.
yes you can dip fighter, but that will slow you down (as you wrote so yourself).

as for social ? the DM look at it as mostly human cities. human tend to look down at small size in our reality, in fantasy books and in the hobbit (the bible of it all) - so he got something to lean on ...

as for wolf VS gecko, the wolf is a much lessor mount as a mount, but much stronger ally.
and with spider climb spell at times.....

if you are referring on dip 1 level, 1 sohei at lvl 7 will get the TWF ranger move and 5 (1 = wolf) attacks worth of a round....


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Fruian, he said he didn't want to go "mounted combat" just to do normal combat on a mount.

So I believe that he's not planning on doing mounted lance charges.
Then we all know the result of a Multiclass build and the pathfinder system. They tend to hardly ever pay off and the end result is somethings significantly weaker than builds with more focus. Even a x2 lance charge does a lot more damage than any other 2 handed weapon he would be using. And totally blows TWF out of the water due to movement not allowing Full attacks. So really logically the best 2 handed weapon while mounted is the Lance even without Spirited Charge Feat.

first of, thanks for the responses.

mounted combat, especially on a gecko or a flyer is indeed a nice thing to have .
but , a few things work against it.

first of, after level 10, with mounted skirmisher, a STR human, on a wolf will do a lot more damage than a charge. (i'll put on some math below), the "best" charger is horse master cavalier, that spring attack in and out adding mount's STR .

the other thing is, out DM play and bring smart encounters. yes, ofc, the first opponent will drop from a charge - but than they will learn. mostly hunt down , block, bull rush of the mount, grapple the annoying charger that one shot them down.

lastly, small has issues. the -4 to STR isnt a lot when charging, it is when you full attack when not charging . the gecko with str of 18 isnt a wolf with str of 25 and CON of 20...
small tend to be looked down at (social skills) treated as children - so less social skills as well.

dont get me wrong - when charges work, and for a small halfling on a flyer or gecko - they work often - they do super damage until lvl 13+ when full attack get >>> any single attack.
it's just - that mounted combat is like archery - is it a killing machine? YAP. but it's a one trick pony (gecko) - making combat a bit more flat.

mounted combat cost :
mounted combat, ride by, spirited charge, wheeling charge , mounted skirmisher just to be handy - leaving very little other options.

lvl 12 Ranger : small and charging VS 2 weapons on a wolf :
no buffs at all, no items at all (as they cancel each other in the example) :
i dont Tank äbiliites, so :
halfling will start with max of STR = 15
all levels go to str (hard, but lets assume)
= STR =18.
to hit = 12 (bab) +4(str) -4 (power attack) + 1 (highter ground) +2 (charge) +6 (instant enemy) .+1 size =+22
damage is 3X(1d6+6+12+6)=82.5

human, start with str 17 >> str 20.(other abilites are better)
mounted skirmisher = mount do one move (not a charge!) so falnk is a viable concept , a lot easier than charges.
to hit = 12 (bab) +5(str) -4 (power attack) + 1 (highter ground) +2 (flank) +6 (instant enemy -2 (two weapon) = 20\20\15\15 (haste add one more ) : 2 kukri : 1d4+5+8+6=104 . now 2 attacks are having a much lower to hit.... but crit at 15-20 double the effect and add 2d6 bleed.

also, wolf, with STR of 25, attack > gecko...

so, is charging a great path ? ofc.
but it's a little dedicated, not always possible, and doing no more than the blender.


Chess Pwn wrote:
why the mounts? Mounts are hard in that they are difficult to have in some places, small corridors, or inside buildings. What are you wanting from your mount? Because not being mounted is much easier.

I disagree.

Mount with narrow frame can go every where. It add flanks. It add another body. It open up team feats.

In a city ? Rangers are perfect.! Reduce animal is 2/ level for a while day " for for size wolf with are of 22.."
Carry companion of meeting the king.

Rest of the time? You rock. Narrow frame mean they can walk 2x2 . or ..reduce them.


I am working on a mounted human ranger.
Mounted , but not mounted combat.
The style will be 2 weapons and I wonder if to take 1 or 2 dip.
Cavalier and level 1 boon companion (beast ) can add a mount at level 1.
1 rogue can add free intimidate or dirty tricks when I sneak.
1 fighter is 2 feats .
1 cleric is 2 domains.
1 sohei monk is the mighty mounted skirmisher feat.

Ofc, sipping is harsh. The poor casting will suffer more as will the rest of the decent class abilities. But 1 can do wonders.

Worth it ?
The idea is mount move and attack. I switch 1 big weapon or 2 Weapons


Dervish of dawn add double the bardic as bonus.
battle herald stack with bard progression.
cavalier 1 , bard 4 > battle herald : full bab -1, full bard boost X2-1.
up to lvl 2 spells.
decent saves, especially with half elf that add 4 to will saves.

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