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666bender's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 1,699 posts (1,701 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.


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i think a pure hunter us just better.
yes, your charge will do a bit less, but the versatility and team gang attacks will allow more then a single trick.

a trip master hunter on a wolf with tandem trip is amazing.
even a grappler isnt bad - with str bonus, auto flank +4 bonus, and team feats - his CMB can be decent.

Well, hunters are still great!
You get a full buffed mount that you can add spider climb, air walk, reduce animal etc.
A human with undersized mount can be a brutal force now.
I tried a war bull, reduced to medium as mounted combat. With pack flanking the to hit stayed valid all the way.


btw - back to the main topic.
it all depend on the level and the core opponents.

at level < 9 the "best" is trip. as most foes are not flying, and human like.
at low (< bab 6 levels) dirty trick sucks. as the effect last a move action, and most foes have only a single attack any how.

level <9 = trip
level > 8 = dirty tricks
level > 8 & situation depended = grapple .
have uses, but not all the time, rest. bull rush etc.

HOWEVER classes add other parameters.
if maneuver master monk > 1, then dirty tricks are godly. as they ar free.
if cavalier >10 then trip and bull rush are great as they are free every charge.
if barbarian with rage cycle than spell sundering is amazing.

but a level 10 dirty trick fighter can do this a lot better.

i'll explain.
first a thug. use enforcer feat.
attack > do non lethal damage > free action a normal intimidate check = shaken for the damage in rounds = frightened instead.
the check intimidate is SO EASY to win.... with full ranks, cha of 14 and a skill focus you wont fail..
"The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier."
if you are level 7, fighting something with 12 HD ? the check is 25 or so.
you have 7+2+3+3 = +15 without a single item to aid you.

than quick dirty trick move you to panicked.

another mini pounce with trip is felling smash.
move and vital strike, get a free trip that trigger AOO.

dirty trick is the best EVER.
1) it works on most creatures.
2) it effects stack nicely.
i am now working on a way to add fear effects with dirty tricks - rendering most foes useless.

i look at it more like pressure point martial arts.
now, what ways to a get to makea foe panicked in a round, with out making me a total single trick pony?

ranger or cavalier, with 1 maneuver master monk dip :
can use the mount for intimidate (roar) a foe ,
than they can :
free action (monk) dirty trick with -2, (not easy) into frighten.
quick dirty trick into panicked.

a thug 1 can START the foe frighten, no check needed, just flank.
than, a dirty trick into panicked.
might work nicely on a lore warden X\thug (1-3) build.

what \ who else?

it seem it does! only the skill cant make it worse...

Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. Afrightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

so.... my Lore warden X \ THUG 3 \ maneuver master 2 is indeed useful!

full attack thug makes you frighten.
free dirty trick = shaken >> foe is panicked. no save.

it's... a nice combo.

rule Q : dirty tricks can do , shaken.
if i recall, if you shake a shaken foe - unless the maneuver say otherwise, you drive it into deeper fear mode (frighten > panicked) is that so?

so, a maneuver master 1, and a class with quick dirty trick, can make you frighten in 1 round, or, if i can add another dirty trick go panicked?

what if the foe is already shaken ?

i LOVE druids. i really do.
i mostly build a balanced not optimize hybrid, one that cast and can melee. it's never the "best" but it's always "workign".
but i am tired of wild nature druids ... those i had a plenty.
i came with several general idea - but like the crowd for the nicest stories who got - and maybe learn .

i mostly like humans but there are a few other ideas.

1) think spider man or flash , a human that got involved with a weird unnatural storm of nature (experimented by a evil arch-enemy summoner).
he got carried into the storm that fused it self with his body.
the boy was a squire - holding the noble house banner (a lion). now, a bit X-man style - he is "one" with the lion . (lion shaman archtype).
the character will suffer the need for urges of animals yet being urban. he can call his banner for assistance (summon, animal companion) as well as turn into the animal it self.

2) a slightly more dark one. a human that saw some crimes of an overlord in Cheliax. he was tossed into a very deep pit and was left there to die.
after month of eating moss and talking to the rocks around him - he was surprised .... the rocks started to talk back... (Menhir druid).
now - out of the pit - he is also out for revenge.

The tiger is optinal, but i like the beast.
Grapple is indeed a problam as it takes almost all the feats .
But i took str surge, for spell sunder - nkw it a waste if no other manuver learned.

If you can do dirty trick faster than standart action - its the best.
Maneuver master splash, rage powers etc.
My lore warden x / maneuver master 2 can either dirty trick you twice or full attack and blind you. Yes, you can get rid of it, with standard action...wasting your round.

For druid or animal companion i like grt bull rush- you push 5' foe get AOO from eveyone - making it a cost effective action.

Grape is a all in buy, with a rope and rapid manuevers its a win in 1 round

well, productive ... what WOULD you go?
all our more rage powers Vs mounted combat?
other stuff?

mounted fury X \ oracle 1.
DM allow for a nature oracle to take any non flyer animal, as well as with mounted fury.
so, level 1 - we start with a tiger and as levels grow power it with our self.
the big Q i got, if to learn extra rage powers Vs feats?
here are 2 builds :
same abilities, human , at level 2 oracle, rest barbarian.

1: barbarian : power attack, imp sunder
2: oracle
3: barb, Boon companion + Superstition
4: nothing much
until this point it's the same build.
both build get fatigue immune at level 9 for rage cycle.

option 1:
5: Witch Hunter + imp unarmed strike
7: imp grapple + Spell Sunder
9: grt grapple + Strength Surge
11: rapid grapple + Spirit Steed
13: come and get me + open feat.

option 2: all in rage powers:
5: Witch Hunter + Beast Totem Lesser
7: Beast Totem + spell sunder
9: Ferocious Mount + Strength Surge
11: Beast Totem, Greater + Spirit Steed
13: come and get me + Ferocious Mount, Greater

Castilonium wrote:

ACG errata is here.

Changes relevant to shamans include:

  • Chant is now (Su) rather than (Ex)
  • Evil Eye is now mind-affecting
  • A bunch of hexes got the “A creature affected by this hex cannot be affected by it again for 24 hours.” clause added on
  • Life Link hex is now identical to the Life Oracle's revelation
  • Summon Nature's Ally I-IX and Remove Disease are now on the spell list
  • Unsworn Shamans now can take shaman hexes rather than only witch hexes
  • Divine Protection got nerfed hard
  • Spirit Talker only lasts 1 hour, not 24 hours
  • Spirit's Gift only lasts 1 min/level rather than 24 hours
  • Hex Vulnerability only works on harmful hexes, not beneficial ones

Things that have not been changed:

  • Arcane Enlightenment
  • Still no Communal spells the spell list

Its big yet logical change.

And the additional sunmons is nice - but nerf hard the hex of nature....
Is there any way to summon as standard?

avr wrote:
That works. So does the helpful halfling build (get the trait which imoroves aid another, maybe also combat reflexes + bodyguard.)

This is nice, especially with dragon order, but the price to dpr is steep.

I geuss a sword order with help full will still swift aid nicely.

Honor gaurd might assist as well with free bodygaurd

i am building a halfling on a gecko (thank to furian advice) .
it's going to be either a cavalier, order of the sword (dm allow gecko on the list.) or a ranger (no archetype, again DM allow on the list. )

i will mostly charge, and ofc i will have power attacks. BUT - there will be cases where charges arent optinal - due to many reasons - formation fighting in the group, very small places, underwater, chambers of kings.

so, as halflings suck in maneuvers (lower str, size, max size effect. )
other than a boring power attacks - what plan B to learn for combats?>

was thinking on intidiate + hurtful + enforcer or.... ?

aint pin down a fighter only feat> ?

ekibus wrote:
I'm sure the guides would be better help. But I did notice you are missing a chain in there. You would probably want to pick up point blank shot, combat reflexes, snap shot, improved snap shot and greater snap shot. Being able to make attacks of opp multiple times in a round to anything within 15 ft of you is pretty sweet

imp. snap shot is indeed great.

but - the snap shot is a duplicate of the ability of ZAM - a waste of a feat.

the pet kill a character until level 11+ .

especially with changing constant buff & fast healing.
it's armor class is fighter level high, it's HP need some feats to assist, but with mounted combat and team feats it's easy to defend it.

monk need to focus.
high dex with low damage Vs high STR with poor defences.
thats why Sohei or hungry ghost are the best archtypes.

with your stat ?
you will rarley hit, do little damage and be ignored most of the times.

get the tiger toughness for survival.
greater grapple at level 10.

you also should learn carry companion.

dex build? str build ? what maneuvers you focus?

if not dex build than your AC isnt important - you wont be missed...
go for enchants.

as ZAM have SO many bonus feats, i can optimize & still have a plan B (stunning fist) for later levels.
any tips?

level 1 :
deadly aim
skill focus know
precise shot (B)
imp unarmed (B)
Perfect Strike (B)

level 2:
close Q shot
wp focus

level 3 :
eldritch heritage - probably arcane to enchant my own item.
point blank master

level 5 :
snake style (for defense)

level 6:
imp precise shot
weapon SP

level 7 :
spider step

level 8 :
skill focus sense motive

level 9 :
clustered shots

level 10 :
imp. critical (B)

level 11:
stunning fist

level 13 :
touch of serenity.

level 14:
shot on the run

level 15 :
Cloud Step

if you can rage cycle, there's a feat that double the DR 1/round.
thats why i like spring attacks or come and get me.

Its an old thread but a nice build idea

Will a maneuver master 2 be worth the whilr?

archery ape is way too costly with so few feats the AC gets.
i had a hunter with an ape and it was amazing.
we both used large weapons.
the ape had:
1-Bardiche prof.
2- power attack
5-imp bull rush
8- reflexes
10 - greater bull rush.

he attacked, sometime bull rushing triggering AOO from me that triggered an AOO from him and the whole team.

from the level 4 size increase to medium...

+4 str

not to mention VERY easy fixes....
ant haul?
all are cheap and easy to make the load light once more

Saldiven wrote:

There is still one serious limitations to trying to use Undersized Mount.

Most of the lvl 4 creatures, being Medium sized, don't have the carrying capacity needed to move effectively with an armored warrior on their back, much less while wearing any type of armor of their own. Even with the modifier for being a quadruped, pretty much any of the available mounts on the list are going to be at medium encumbrance just from the weight of the rider.

Once it's a large sized quadruped, however, weight really isn't an issue anymore.

I have to assume it's merely a silly oversight by the writers (Undersized Mount didn't even exist when the archetype was released).


bears have str of 18+
and how much is needed really?

a person is about 180 pounds.
gear is about 70 +/- ?

250 for light (and it CAN go to medium easy...)
even if you put +1 to int at level 4 :

level 4 bear has str of base 15+4 (level) + 1 level = 20 str
he can carry : 133+1.5 = 199.5 pounds at light load.
399 at medium.

boar is 2 less.

claudekennilol wrote:
666bender wrote:

you know, you CAN fight with, not ON the mount until level 7...

He can't. It must be an appropriate-sized mount.

IT IS .....undersized mount

it's a storage of free feats.
imp unarmed strike as well at level 1.

you know, you CAN fight with, not ON the mount until level 7...

just take undersized mount. it'sa well worth feat.
it make the small races useless.
take a +to str race & a medium mount!
all the way worth it (although unless you are a dwarf, it look ridiculous)

a worthy feat is Equipment trick
Hogtie (Improved Grapple): When you attempt to tie up an opponent you are grappling, your penalty is only –5 instead of the normal –10.
with greater grapple, it's a 1 rounder to hog tie someone .
game over.

but - a tetori is a trap. it's amazing - but a real one trick pony.
you meet a huge dragon - you DONT want to grab it.
ant than you cant do anything.

The issue with tetori is they can ONLY grapple. Vs many foes they suck. Vs one huge dragon- you either pin in round 1 or die from the full attack.
Vs ooze, ghost, swarms you suck. Vs a flame something- suck.
Be a druid or lore warden, dip 1 in maneuver master

way too feat intensive
a sohei mounted is amazing but ALL your feats will go there.
(as i want mount to NOT be large) it's
undersized mount
ride by attack
power attack
wheeling charge
spirited charge
3 feats to gain a mount.

human, level 11, monk has 11 feats. leaving 2 feats on NON mounted.
so, i prefer the above options really.

I like 2 builds.
The tank : dip 1 as unarmed fighter > crane style. Take stwart tree and get 7-30 dr.

The tag team.
Barbarian mounted fury, undersized mount and a boar ac.
When you get claws so is the boar.

Also, take all the 1/rage powers and dip one into oracle for fatigue immune.

I have a thread on builds i thought would rock.

Lore warden 3/ thug rogue 3/ shadow dancer 1 / lore x.
Hit once, and stack effects.
Your foe is shaken, feared, sicken, dazzeled and prone in 1 att and you are gone.

Another is a weird one.
Cavalier x, sd3.
Why? Use hosteling armor.
You can charge for super damage.
You can fight with mount and shadow.
You can host your mount, and spring attack onto shadows.

first of, the idea is at least most of the time be with a mount \ companion.
mounted isnt the right word, it's more fight with a animal at your side \ mounted.
my race will be human or 1/2 orc as i like to do damage and maneuvers.
i will use in all options below, the undersized mount so the mount will be medium OR partly medium (reduce animal always on).
top allowed is one level dip.
classes allowed are the list below only.

1) Cavalier order of the dragon, beast rider Emissary and honor guard.
mount will be : a gecko or a bear .
you take all the mounted feats but also the swift aid feat.
the idea is to charge if \ when you can for a lot less damage than order of the sword on a big mount, but still decent. than full attack while you bodyguard your allies and mount.
it's not a super DPR build, but a decent one that also assist well it's friends .
dip here isnt needed.

2) same as 1, but order of the sword and no honor gaurd.
mount need to be a mobile 1 - like the gecko.
the idea is to move in-out-in again.
it's DPR is very nice - but.... i think some what boring and a 1 trick pony.

3) Ranger, beastmaster. combat style = mounted.
mount = a flyer that stay medium - a giant vulture or a roc are the best.
when possible you make mounted charges, when not you are a full ranger with a VERY nice companion.
use Reduce Animal all the time - so mount stay medium at all levels - it's damage will be nice .
use carry companion to make mount begone when not needed - and you are still a decent full stealth ranger with power attack and some spells.

4) hunter, AC will be a deadly one - large cat, Trex, roc etc.
or even a ape - that dm allow (if int is 3+) to wield a weapon.
with team feats - your total to hit is almost like a full bab.
the mount will be deadly. use Reduce Animal at all times.
use reach weapon and precise strike.
i didint do the math, but the extra 1d6 per attack and the + to str will make you and your AC decent + in damage with great reach.

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Ban barbarian, ranger, slayer, samurai, cavalier, bloodrager, and paladins cause they make fighters useless and a bad pick in comparison.

Going to be honest fighters ARE useless. After unchained fighters seem to have become the worst base class in the game.

Gonna go back to my suggestion of bard or if you have the right party a skald. Since a small mounted character is out. If you ever go mounted screw medium creatures...small is where all the fun and power is at. Especially when a medium wartrained giant gecko costs about 150gp in the animal archive. That is first level achievable and will be better than an AC up till 5th level.

small is nice, but your STR suffer greatly.

when you charge - it's nice.
when you dont - you drop heavy on the DPR.
also - only cavalier can do OTHER stuff when charging.

it takes LOAD of feats to build.
mount = acrobatic step or dragon style for bad area of hampered movement.
you need , mounted combat, spirited charge, ride by attack, wheeling charge just to get started.

gecko is great for a cavalier, ranger\hunter etc can get better as a flying mount.
a large + reduce animal (for the str boost) dire bat is a great mount.

but.... again.... the DPR drop to the floor when area is too small for a charge.

and - it kinna lock you to a single trick for your all life

Rerednaw wrote:
Well..Scout archetype on top of (preferably Unchained) Rogue means they get their sneak attack since they are moving (at 8th level granted).

was looking into that .

scout thug is great.
but... a lot of creatures are immune to sneak attacks - making the rogue useless in those fights.

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Oh I was just thinking you can accomplish massive damage by level 4-5. Killing things in 1 hit seems "best" to me.

I dislike rolling a chance to do something when I can roll a 3 or better and remove a threat completely from the board.

But I'd have to agree to go unchained monk. But why is brawler banned?

You could go bard and do diminional agility feat when u qualify.

1) cause i got no mount

2) cause unless mount is med\ you got reduce animal it sucks
3) casue i will play a med ranger or hunter AFTER this one...

no brawler casue DM banned them - they make fighters useless.
and no unchained builds allowed

Skirmish as in, # attack-run#

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Best skirmish feat?

Spirited Charge.

a little hard to use without a mount.

let me re-explain the purpose:
add as any effects as you can, as "riders" on the attack OR manuver that trigger X AOO etc to make srping attack ALMOST as good as a full attack - making it viable.

undersized mount...

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
Maybe take Evolved Animal Companion for your Mantis so you can get Reach on the grab for 15' reach/30'(!) lunge.

I do like Evolved Animal COmpanion but it requires a 13 Cha and since I need a 13 Int for Combat Expertise I do not see it happening on this go round. Tho you are correct 30' lunge is pretty freaking sweet.

Here is what I have so Far on the PC:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

You took imp grapple without imp unarmed strike, how?

Yoy know you can choose, at level 7 to NOT let it grow in size right ?

Rerednaw wrote:

Finesse Weapon?

2H weapon?
Combat maneuvers?

Not sure what works for you...though for a self-sufficient could try Unchained Monk. They lost their Will save, but got full BAB and a bunch of other goodies (like all unchained monks are now Qinggong monks). Dragon style allows for an extra movement before a full-attack, which greatly helps repositioning without giving up your full attack pattern. Monks are still MAD of course, but Wis/Str is sufficient.

finesse is way too low DPR > STR all the way.

2h weapon, reach or falchion.
unarmed ? maybe as plan B or if you think of a good use.
maneuvers i LOVE if they are any good, we are level 13...

no unchained anything.

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