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Augmented Gearsman

45ur4's page

253 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Pugno D. Brace deals only 5d6 fire damage per unarmed strike, the rest of the damage is physical, so he is still doing 6d8 damage (2d10 for the unarmed strike damage of a monk of level 18 for VMC monk plus 4 levels for the robes of the monk, this increased by two sizes for Kinetic Form) + 19 (dexterity plus weapon enhancement plus 1 damage for having chosen Fire twice for Expanded Element). When using pummeling charge he can make his flurry, for a total of 6 six attacks, with two extra attacks thanks to haste and using a KI point, resulting in:

6d8 (average, 27) + 19 = 46 damage per attack
46 * 8 attacks - 15 DR (applied only once, thx to Pummeling Style) = 353 total damage.

The Balor is down on his next turn (retreat is not an option in this challenge), while the balor does not have any real option to do anything (per the post).

Same goes for the Pit Fiend (which may fail the ST against blindness of the Flashing Infusion) and the Goldie (here Pugno D. Brace has the edge because he gets the surprise round and then wins initiative).

The Mortonator wrote:
Texas Snyper wrote:
45ur4 wrote:

The opinion on Shroud of Water will change accordingly depending on the ruling on this.
What do you mean? The SoW shield is floating. It doesn't need hands.
Right, the mechanics are just a shield bonus, but it's not actually a shield.

What I mean is if kineticists can benefit from a light shield while Gathering Power, then nothing would stop a kineticist from carrying one, preferably without armor check penalty. This decreases the greatness of SoW a bit accordingly 'cause the only real benefit will be saving money (which is superfluous for kineticists).

In those games when a kineticist cannot Gather Power with a shield nor a buckler, SoW in shield form becomes a wonderful AC booster, to be always prioritized in respect of FoW.

N. Jolly wrote:
Texas Snyper wrote:


@shiroi I agree. Already not having to drop half our income on weapons already puts us at a financial advantage in letting us put our money in our gear.
I'm not saying it should have scaling equal to SOW, but something like 1, 8, 16 would make it feel more in line with others rather than the sore thumb that it is.

I'm with Jolly, a small automatic progression would have been appreciated. FoW as it is now is not a great defense compared to other Elemental defenses.

I think that this "enhancement bonus to natural armor" was not the best road to go. Perhaps a small bonus to Stealth and Swim checks or something about natural healing like the Nature Oracle revelation "Spirit of Nature" would have been a better compromise.

Ravingdork wrote:
45ur4 wrote:
About that, Arbutus is carrying a shield and has no quick draw feat or the like, how can he Gather Power?
It's a light shield. Only heavy shields are so heavy that you can't use the hand for anything else. A light shield on the other hand lets you do things like carry items in the shield hand (but not wield weapons), or even reload.

OK. I imagine this is arguable 'cause that rule for light shields is for carrying items only and says nothing about spellcasting or other actions, and may vary from table to table, but you have already anticipated this on your second post.

The opinion on Shroud of Water will change accordingly depending on the ruling on this.

Flesh of Wood tends to be a bit better for a Phytokineticist because there are no real other options to invest burn (almost no Wood utility requires burn to activate).
Duo- or tri-elemental kineticists (phytos or non-phytos) on the other hand have a wider selection of utility wild talents and other elemental defenses that are way better than FoW (Shroud of Water for example as I writed before for example, or Flesh of Stone and Force of Ward as well).

Texas Snyper wrote:
It doesn't "have to" always be the boosted defense. You can use those all day utility Talents like kinetic form too. But yes most of the defense talents should have some invested burn. Aether, earth, and water are the best examples of that.

I agree with you, Kinetic Form is the best example. Semi-defenses (those Utility wild talents that often require its related elemental defense, and provide a defensive bonus all day long, like Shimmering Image or Jagged Flesh) are possibly second.

Ravingdork wrote:
My phytokineticist, Arbutus, absolutely loves his defense wild talent; it's one of the things that allows him to tank so incredibly well. It also allows him to free up his neck slot on far more interesting things.

About that, Arbutus is carrying a shield and has no quick draw feat or the like, how can he Gather Power?

Efreeti wrote:
Josh-o-Lantern wrote:
Am I missing some crucial element (pun intended) or does the defensive wild talent for wood, Flesh of Wood, REALLY suck? I mean, all the other defenses scale to some degree before having to spend burn to increase it yet the bonus to Natural Armor stays at +1 unless you pay... What is so great about NA that it doesn't scale?

As Mark said somewhere else: that it adds up.

Water's defensive talent (the most directly comparable, since they both add to AC) competes with a magical armour/shield, so it needs to scale to stay relevant. Flesh of wood adds to your magican armour and shield.

Fire's defense scales becasue so do enemy hit points.
Air's does because so does enemies' chance to hit.
Earth's does because so does enemies' attack damage.

So, just because all four original element's defenses scale does not mean it's the default. It's a case-by-case consideration based on game balance.

I think that's an unfair comparison, cause Flesh of Wood competes with the amulet of natural armor in terms of bonus type, but to stay competitive FoW needs to be feeded with burn intensively, otherwise becoming useless when leveling.

Shroud of Water on the other part competes with armors and bracers of armor, but without investing a single point of burn SoW reaches a +8 bonus, the same value of the best of Bracers of Armor. As a shield, SoW is even better, at 20th provides the same AC of a small shield +5 or heavy shield +4, all without using a hand and zero burn (also kineticists are not proficient in using shields and need both hands free to Gather).

Here's my submission too!
Basically an Elemental Ascetic Pyrokineticist using fists (insipired by this), because I really love unarmed fight and fire too, so why not?

Here's the build of

Pugno D. Brace:

kineticist elemental ascetic
primary element Fire

human (no feat, +2 DEX & WIS)
Traits fate's favored, firebrand

1 weapon finesse
5 snapping turtle style
9 pummeling style
13 combat style master
17 pummeling charge
VMC monk (KI pool 10, improved evasion, unarmed strike)

_Utility Wild Talent
1 basic pyrokinesis
2 skilled kineticist
4 fire sculptor
6 greater skilled kineticist (stealth)
8 heat adaptation
10 kinetic form
12 ride the blast
14 spark of life
16 firesight
18 smoke storm
20 reverse shift

1 draining infusion
3 burning infusion
11 flash infusion
17 unraveling infusion
19 eruption

_Expanded Element
7 flame jet*
15 greater flame jet*
air cushion
wings of air

book DEX +5 137.5
book WIS +5 137.5
belt +6 DEX&CON 90 BELT
bracers of armor +8 64 WRISTS
gamboge nodule 54
ring of protection +5 50 RING 1
pale green prism 30
flawed pale green prism 28
cloak of resistance +5 25 SHOULDER
luckstone 20
AOMF (agile, menacing) 16 NECK
monk's robe 13 BODY
ring of chameleon 12.7 RING 2
boots of speed 12 FEET
unfettered shirt 10 CHEST
pliant gloves 10 HANDS
scroll of permanency 8.625
jingasa of the fortunate soldier 5 HEAD
eyes of the eagle 2.5 EYES
scroll of greater magic fang CL 20 1.5

level 1 stats: 7 18 12 7 17 7
final stats: 7 36 18 11 30 7

activated: haste, kineticform, light, omnikinesis
internal buffer 3 points used
AC 55 10 + 13 + 15 + 5 + 1 + 8 - 2 + 3 + 2
base dex wis def has arm siz dod luck
CMD 64 10 + 15 + 13 - 2 + 15 + 5 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 2
base bab dex str wis def has siz dod luck
hit +35 15 + 5 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 13 - 2 + 1
bab weap comp exEl has dex siz mor
init +18 13 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1
dex luck comp mor tra
fort +25 12 + 5 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 4
bas res luck comp mor con
refl +35 12 + 5 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 13
bas res luck comp mor has dex
will +25 6 + 5 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 10
bas res luck comp mor wis
damage 6d8 + 13 + 5 (unarmed)
siz dex weap
HP 170 20d8 + 20 + 80 - 20
cls fav con burn
===Kinetic Fist
Note: always empowered
hit +36
dam 6d8 + 5d6 + 19
dam 6d8 + 10d6 + 19 (1 burn)
standard powerful fist (2) + kinetic fist (0) + flash infusion (4) - 6 infusion specialization
debuff powerful fist (2) + kinetic fist (0) + unraveling infusion (4) - 6 infusion specialization
form 33 10 + 9 + 13 + 1
sub 30 10 + 9 + 10 + 1
util 21+ 10 + 10 + 1 + spell level
UMD +25 20 + 3 - 2 + 2 + 1 + 1
rank cls cha luck comp mor
percep +41 20 + 3 + 10 + 2 + 5 + 1
rank cls wis luck comp mor
stealth +51 20 + 3 + 13 + 2 + 10 + 1 - 8 + 10
rank cls dex luck comp mor siz wld
Kplanes +27 20 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 1
rank cls luck comp mor

Note on Omnikinesis
This is used mainly to gain Wings of Air, which can serve better than Flame Jet.


1. Shoggoth:

Pugno D. Brace waits
shoggoth takes the only action possible: charge, but has no chances to win against CMD nor hittin Pugno D. Brace AC
Pugno D. Brace sits and waits for the soggoth, as a prepared action he moves to get enemy in reach, then fullattacks (conc to cast fire underwater always succeedes)

2. Balor:

balor gets surprise round
if balor uses dispel, but less than half of Pugno D. Brace are dispelled. Kinetic form can be reactivated on next turn at will
if balor summons, it takes too much long
if balor tries telekinesis or any spell, Pugno D. Brace can easily succed at any ST
if balor attacks, it needs a critical to hit Pugno D. Brace, that, even with vorpal sword, can be negated once a day by jingasa

3. Pit Fiend:

Pugno D. Brace wins initiative
charge, 8 attackshits, total damage 368, RD applies once, on its turn the pitfiend regenerates and wakes up. Anew pitfiend shows up (it was created with devil shaping during downtime), Pugno D. Brace activates his ring
PF1 is badly injured, it could be killed by the PF2 betraying him
PF1 is in Pugno D. Brace's reach, so getting an AoO will drop him down, its strategy can be defensive
most of the spells are not worth casting, because of Pugno D. Brace ST. Poison and fever of the bite are better choice, but precision is not high enough to hit Pugno D. Brace AC.
One PitFiend could casts dispel magic greater, but its CL 18 is unlikely to penetrate the DC of 31 (32 for fire effects) of Pugno D. Brace.
Wish is the most desireable action here:
to lower Pugno D. Brace ST and cast hold monster, then the PF2 CdG him. But Pugno D. Brace frees him on his turn

All in all, it drives toward Pugno D. Brace's favor

4. Tarn Linnorm:

linnorm gets surprise round
if charges with bite & PA, hits 42 damage
if charges with tail, it could grab him and Pugno D. Brace would be impossibilitated to use any spell-like ability. On next turn Pugno D. Braces can activate his shirt. But, attack roll to hit with its tail is too low even when charging against surpised Pugno D. Brace...
if linnorm moves and starts a grapple, it automatically succeeds and does constrict damage. On his turn Pugno D. Brace frees him with object
if linnorm uses breath weapon, Pugno D. Brace evades it easily negating damage

on his turn Pugno D. Brace, fullattacks, dodges an AoO to get in reach, and kills the beast which is unprotected against fire

5. Ancient Gold Dragon:

Pugno D. Brace starts first, sneaks to the dragon thanks to his +56 bonus, near enough for a charge (60 feet with boots of speed activated plus his reach, 15 feet, still outside dragon's blindsense). He activates Reverse Shift to become invisible and go near the dragon and then ceases concentration to charge with Pummeling charge.
Pugno D. Brace wins initiative and doublefullattacks the dragon, which is immune to fire but still succumbs to rough physical damage.

6. Solar:

as ancient gold dragon, but solar have higher AC, so gets hit only 5 times. Solar is low resistant to fire though. Double full-attack and solar is down

7. Tarrasque:

same tactics as solar and ancient gold dragon. Tarrasque has chances to survive, but on his turn he can only:
fullattack, with nearly all attacks failing to hit (Pugno D. Brace AC 55)
or swallow, doing a bit of damage, but Pugno D. Brace can flurry on his turn and kill the monster inside his belly

shroudb wrote:
45ur4 wrote:

about wood defence.

take note, that amulet of natural armor, and barkskin are both enhancement bonuses to natural ac, so neither will stack with this.

so your "instead of taking burn buy amulet" comment doesnt actually apply

I know they don't stack, as I wrote just before the part you quoted. What I were trying to say, in a bad way, is "buy an amulet instead of using FoW at all".

Sure, FoW can even surpass the amulet bonus, but at the price of too many HPs, so in most cases is not worth the effort.

Azten wrote:
This is great. The only think I don't agree on is mixing jagged flesh, thorn flesh, and searing flesh together. That's 2d6+4 20 2d6+22 if you get hit, and only at level 15, if you spend talents to get the defenses and feats to get the extra talents(jagged/thron). But if you don't get hit my non-reach melee, you just screwed yourself.


I don't like Thorn Flesh/Jagged Flesh at all, I've suggested the retaliation build because I saw it in play and it was quite effective against monsters (DR from earth was mitigating all damage the character was taking, while inflicting a good amount of damage).
But you are right, is not a worthwhile investment both in terms of wild talents and burn to be taken.

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I hope that the following information can be useful: I've exhamined and rated every elemental defense, including the two new for Void and Wood, considering every defense both with and without burn points and taking in consideration wild talents that have each elemental defense as a prerequisite, in an attempt to find out what is the best defense.

Totals are expressed in a range from 1 to 10, which is the average value based on the following three criteria:
no burn, is the defense as it is with no burn point allocated;
with burn, a rating that considers the bonus gained for each point of burn invested and how much is useful the defense at capped values;
burn burst, this rating is for the "burst" a kineticist gets for the round when using a wild talent of the same element.

Each of these paramethers are ranked with stars(*), from 1 to 5.

Enveloping Winds (Air) Total 6/10:

no burn ** bonus is too small and situational.
with burn *** can shut down archers and the like. What is good here, is the max cap (75%), which is very high making a kineticist virtually immune to ranged physical attacks
burn burst *** great bonus, can even deflect other kinetic blasts. GMs might be tempted to metagame and stop focusing on you while it lasts which can be good for you or bad for your teammates

Wild talents with Enveloping Winds as a prerequisite
Aerial Evasion ***** evasion paired with kineticist' excellent reflexes means immunity to AoE
Engulfing Winds ** losing the defense bonus for a wind wall is not a good trade, unless when encountering a large number of archers or the like (which doesn't happen often). It is Burn free though

Other considerations
Enveloping Winds is very helpful for melee kineticist, but in any other cases most of the kineticists won't find useful to invest Burn in it.

Flesh Of Stone (Earth) Total 6/10:

no burn ***** DR that scales with level is always good, also enemies with adamantine or +5 weapons are very rare
bonus per burn ** as a single defense it may be good, but too much HP are lost in effort to resist more only against physical attacks. Good news, it also useful against other physical-attacking kineticists
burn burst *** DR against all but adamantine is already enough most of the times

Wild talents with Flesh of Stone as a prerequisite
Jagged Flesh ** very effective in those encounters with multiple-attacking monsters with no DR, but not always worth the point of burn it costs

Other considerations
damage reduction is a good way to mitigate the loss of HP by burn, but remember that your kineticist may be damaged by energy attacks also, so beware putting too much burn in this defense especially late in high level games. The best thing about FoS is that is great on its own without burn.

Force Ward (Aether) Total 6.8/10:

no burn ***** temp HP that regenerates in minutes? Yes please. An ability that prevents triggering secondary effects which don't go over those hp? Awesome!!!
bonus per burn **** investing two points in it means no HP loss, with a small HP pool that heals over time and elemental overflow bonuses without hindrances! This is the most suited defense to invest burn in the morning up to elemental overflow desired bonus
burn burst **** temp HP immediately heals a bit

Wild talents with Force Ward as a prerequisite
Force Barrier ** area is not great along with the short duration renders it difficult to use. In most situations your kineticist won't be using it
Telekinetic Globe ** telekinetic sphere is a good spell, but: first, to avoid concentrating every turn a burn is required. Second, Force barrier wild talent is a prerequisite. Third, telekinetic hand can lift more.

Other considerations
Note that there is not hard cap for burning. Gaining temp HP from it for each burn, translates in pumping this defense with Burn, up to elemental overflow max bonus (plus one, Force Ward do it better with an even number of burn points)

Searing Flesh (Fire) Total 5.6/10:

no burn * damage is too low, cannot bypass even Fire Resistance 5. Incinerate arrows only after they have hit
bonus per burn *** increased damage per burn, up to 7 times, which translates to double kineticist level of fire damage. This makes monsters to die while attacking and weapons to break down. The price to be paid is high though
burn burst **** damage is increased again. This serves perfectly as a deterrent for monsters that wants to attack you in melee

Wild talents with Searing Flesh as a prerequisite
Flame Shield *** extra damage which applies to all non-reach melee attack and damage halved by cold-based attacks along with evasion for those attacks is sweet.
Heat Wave *** this is the best defense the fire element has to offer, along with some debuffing. This has unlimited duration, but a kineticist using this must remember to switch it off after every encounter to avoid hindering your party with heat

Other considerations
fire is not a natural defensive element for the kineticist. It is easy though for GMs to metagame monster combat, knowing how much damage is done with searing flesh, which can be good or bad thing so be prepared to talk about it. Fire also is the only element at the moment that has a wild talent usable as an Immediate Action and costing burn, comboing well with searing flesh burst.

Shroud of Water (Water) Total 6.4/10:

no burn **** saves money and equipment slots. Any kineticist will always benefit from the shield bonus. However, it's replaceable by equipment at higher levels and kineticist are not really gold-starving
bonus per burn *** even more AC! the really good thing about it, is that a kineticist may interchange from armor to shield and benefit from burn point in excess. Beware, to keep on pair with magical equipment bonuses burn must used
burn burst * having both armor and shield bonus are not needed, the equipment should be doing this, and your kineticist' AC should not rely on taking burn every round of combat

Wild talents with Shroud of Water as a prerequisite
Cold Snap *** a good debuffer with solid area and unlimited duration. As with Heat Wave, remember to switch it off, and stay away from your party members
Shimmering Mirage ***** concealment bonus is low and does not scale, but it is always on. Concealment can be used also for Stealth skill

Other considerations
This defense can save your kineticist money from bracers of armors, ring of force shield or simply magic armors and shields. The armor or shield bonus is higher than the magical equipment counterpart when investing burn, but losing HP for some more AC may not be the right investment. The real winner here is Shimmering image

Emptiness (Void) Total 5/10:

no burn * bonuses are low and too circumstancial, but negative energy resistance is rare to find and the bonus to will saves helps kineticists a bit. Bonuses does not scale
bonus per burn ** the good thing is that there is no cap for burn
burn burst *** bonus to will saves against all mind effects is really good

Wild talents with Emptiness as a prerequisite
No Breath **** always in effect and does not cost a single point of burn! Your kineticist is now immune to any suffocation effect and cloud or inhaled smoke effects and survive in outer space.

Other considerations
Emptiness bonuses are too small and in most cases unnecessary. No Breath is the gold nugget, proving to be powerful and fun both in and out of combat.

Flesh Of Wood (Wood) Total 4.5/10:

no burn ** having higher AC is always a good thing. This defense begins with a good bonus, but does not scale with kineticist level, forcing burn usage on higher levels. Good news are it is an enhancement bonus, stacking with any existing racial natural armor and rasing AC even more at lower levels
bonus per burn ** the only way to increase that enhancement bonus is taking burn. Question is: is worth losing HP per level for each burn to increase by 1 the natural armor, which could be instead by increased with an amulet of natural armor? Unarmed kineticists will love this defense
burn burst *** burst is OK, but situational

Wild talents with Flesh of Wood as a prerequisite
Thorn Flesh ** very effective in those encounters with multiple-attacking monsters with no DR, but most of the time not worth the point of burn it costs

Other considerations
thorn flesh with jagged flesh and searing flesh can make up for a good retalation-build. Also for 1 to 4 burns, this defense saves your kineticist from buying the Amulet of natural armor

I take this opportunity to say thanks to everyone for their participation in this thread and support, first of all to N.Jolly for the efforts made so far and the great guide made.

I have hit the FAQ button, mainly for the damage part of FoB. Can we please have a clarification on that? It can be read in both ways: Adding only 1d6 for each attack after the first to the same target OR dealing damage as a 1st level blast for each blast hitting the same target plus 1d6 for each extra attack that hits the same target.
Also, bonus points for answering if FoB can be used with any metakinesis feat

VampByDay wrote:

4)The Draining infusion is not called out as something the ascetic kineticist cannot take, but the wild talent's 'related blasts' are "Any Simple." Since I can't do the normal simple blasts of a normal kineticist, can I not make use of it? This is strange because all of the 'simple blasts' only target one creature (as far as I know) but the text reads: if AT LEAST ONE CREATURE fails its saving throw against your draining infusion . . ." implying that it can be used with blasts that are not 'simple.'

I'm adding a question to the draining infusion + kinetic fist combo: do the attacks overcome spell resistance? The two infusions conflicts on this, so which one supersedes the other?

One Confused Kineticist? wrote:

Then I'm missing something.

Occult Adventures wrote:


Instead of a single kinetic blast, you shoot two kinetic blasts at
targets within 120 feet that each deal damage as if your kineticist
level were 1st (effects or abilities that increase your kinetic blast’s
damage don’t apply). At 10th level, you can shoot three blasts
with flurry of blasts; this increases to four blasts at 16th level and
to five blasts at 20th level. If you are under the effect of haste
or similar magic that increases your number of attacks in a full-attack
action, the number of kinetic blasts in your flurry of blasts
increases by 1.
No two targets can be more than 30 feet apart. You must assign
the targets of all your blasts before rolling any of the attacks. Any
blast beyond the first that hits the same target adds 1d6 points of
damage; bonuses and penalties to damage don’t apply. If you are
using a substance infusion that requires a saving throw, a target
attempts its save only once (even if it was hit multiple times),
but it takes a penalty on the save equal to the number of times
it was hit beyond the first. If you are using a substance infusion
that requires a caster level check or combat maneuver check, you
roll the check only once against each target, but you gain a bonus
on the check equal to the number of times that target was hit
beyond the first. If you are using the pushing substance infusion,
the maximum distance of the push increases by 5 feet for each
time the target was hit beyond the first.

Given each attack is a level 1 Blast, you roll attacks separately, and consecutive hits add 1d6 to the level 1 Blast that hits a second time, damage should go:

Hit 1: 1d6+1 + Con
Hit 2: 2d6+1 + Con
Total: 3d6+1 + Con

This ability requires 2 Burn to use (1 Burn with Infusion Specialization) and at level 7 it would be better to just hit for the 4d6+4 + Con for 0 Burn, unless I include some substance infusion. Even then, I'm losing 1d6 of damage (potentially more of my 1st or 2nd attack misses) for a potential +1 to save DC or CMB. Damage would increase considerably if I somehow had access to Haste as the 3rd attack would deal 3d6+1 + Con for a total of 6d6+1 + Con, provided all the attacks actually hit. If it works the other way we have:

Hit 1: 1d6+1 + Con
Hit 2: 1d6
Total: 2d6+1 + Con

Which is semi-pitiful for the same end result. With possible Haste access, I'm left with 3d6+1 + Con which is still less than a Burn free normal blast. Again, assuming all attacks even hit. Given either of these scenarios (barring Haste from the equation) it would I appear I have stumbled into another garbage Form Infusion. At least I can deal 1d6+1 + Con to 2 separate targets. That's nifty... Oh wait, Foe Throw.

Can we have an official clarification about Flurry of Blasts damage?

The way I'm reading it seems to indicate that 1d6 is added in addition to base damage of each hit (case A written by the OP in the quoted text).
This is possibily the ranged alternate version of Kinetic Blade in terms of damage in case of A, or a not very useful in terms of cost/effect in case of B scenario.
For its 2 burn cost, it should do much more than this...

Also, about "effects or abilities that increase your Kinetic Blast's damage don't apply", what are considered effects that add damage? Elemental overflow? Metakinesis? Feats? Disintegrating infusion?

Ravingdork wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
45ur4 wrote:
A very simple house rule we use is that Gathering Power for half an hour can be used to refill Internal Buffer
He has to yell like in Dragonball Z the entire time, right? HAAAAAAAAAAAA
It's definitely gotta' be loud and flashy. Thems' tha' rules!

It is indeed!!!

@Sphynx, we usually have 4 encounters per day, using two hours per day. Utilities are still out, because Gather Power cost reduction is for blasts only

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A very simple house rule we use is that Gathering Power for half an hour can be used to refill Internal Buffer

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Actually, a section showing how much burn is expected per level could be useful.
This is a sample chart, showing expected burn per Blast. It assumes a kineticist using a single form/substance infusion of the highest level compared to his class level

I'm also taking a moment to say that I really enjoy reading this guide, being the most complete among Kineticist guides. I would like to see a section of savvy Burn usage, giving advice on when to use Burn and what wild talent type should get prioritized, possibly comparing different playstyles at different character levels.

Chess Pwn wrote:
45ur4 wrote:

I'm just pointing out that Internal Buffer can also be used to prevent burn from utility wild talents, which normally cannot benefit from Gather Power nor Infusion Specialization.

It can also be used to prevent burn from feats.

Best thing is, unless misreading, that a Kineticist can store Burn into her Internal Buffer right before going to sleep, and wake up next morning with the burn gone and the Buffer still filled in

The Internal buffer doesn't prevent the burn from anything, because you took the burn earlier to power the buffer. It only allows you to spend more burn in a round and to start the day with some extra burn available if you charged it the day before.

A kineticist can fill her Internal Buffer at the end of the adventuring day and wake up the next day with no burn damage, effectively suffering 0 burn on the most relevant part of adventuring day.

Does using a move action to move a Mobile Blast, count as "Activating a blast", and, for instance, allowing the use of Ride the Blast with each move action taken?

I'm just pointing out that Internal Buffer can also be used to prevent burn from utility wild talents, which normally cannot benefit from Gather Power nor Infusion Specialization.
It can also be used to prevent burn from feats.

Best thing is, unless misreading, that a Kineticist can store Burn into her Internal Buffer right before going to sleep, and wake up next morning with the burn gone and the Buffer still filled in

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Oracle class is powerful and fits any theme perfectly.

Cadvin wrote:
Verzen wrote:
What's the kinetic defense's (for fire) save? (DC)

Searing Flesh is considered a wild talent, so it would be 10 + effective spell level + CON. I'm not entirely certain what spell level kinetic defense is, but Expanded Defense seems to indicate that it's 4, in which case the DC is 14 + CON.

As a side note, I feel like Earth Climb needs just a little bit more. Maybe make it function like Spider Climb, or make all surfaces, no matter how smooth, have a base DC of 25/30. The mighty Geokineticist can toss boulders and see through rock, he shouldn't be thwarted by someone who decides to sand down a castle wall.

From the Occult Adventures Playtest pdf wrote:

All wild talents have a required kineticist level, and most

have an effective spell level. However, blast and defense wild
talents are always considered to be a spell of a level equal
to half the kineticist’s level
(maximum 9th level at level 18).

Yes! An Unraveling Flurry of Blue Flame Blasts!

Will FoB be changed to work with feats like improved two-weapon fighting?

Just realized today that the Cloud infusion is listed in the 16th-level Water wild talents

From OA Playtest document wrote:

Wild Talents: 1st—Icewalker, Kinetic Cover, Kinetic

Healer, Pressurized Blast Infusion, Slick; 6th—Entangling
Infusion, Impale, Torrent, Water Manipulator, Waterdancer,
Watersense; 10th—Chilling Infusion, Ice Path, Kinetic
Form, Ride the Blast, Shimmering Mirage, Spark of Life,
Spray, Waterdancer (Greater); 16th—Cloud, Kinetic Form
(Greater), Sharding

, but the only element listed in Cloud is Air

From Infusion Wild Talents wrote:

Element air;Type form infusion; Level 9; Burn 4

Prerequisites kineticist level 16th
Associated Blasts blizzard, sandstorm, steam, thunderstorm
Saving Throw none
Instead of unleashing

Maizing wrote:

I had an idea for a kineticist character that works with plants and the like (I based this on a picture I found that I plan to use to represent the character), but the closest I could find to match this concept is the earth focused kineticist.

Is there any chance of the elemental focus of kineticists being expanded?

I am Groot!

I actually played a magmakineticist using mainly grapple maneuvers combined with Searing Flesh and Kinetic Fist for extra damage. Expanded defense for having both fire and earth defenses was useful to reduce damage taken while grappling.
The real thing I liked from Searing flesh was dealing damage both to the grappled creature and to enemy's allies that wanted to help free him. Also many foes relied on their natural attacks to fullattack while they were being grappled... Fire immunity was not a concern, because I could still grapple and attack using the earth side.

Thing is, I really enjoyed playing this guy and had fun, and Searing Flesh demonstrated as an Ok class ability.
What was unfun is that fire resistance/immunity is a common one among monsters, rendering fire wild talents useless, cause they are lacking other capabilities to contribute other than damage-dealing.

mplindustries wrote:
Mikael Sebag wrote:

So, with this thread now exceeding 3,000 posts (our collective desire to see this class do well is evident), I have two important questions:

1) Is there a consensus yet about what the problem areas of the kineticist are?

2) Are we any closer to providing the designer(s) with solutions for the class's problematic elements? If so, what have we (the Paizo community) come up with?

Consensus problems:

1) Lack of skill points

2) Unquestionably needs more damage

3) More utility powers/more access to utility powers

4) Substance Infusions mostly blow

Solutions: More skill points, more damage, more/better utility powers, splitting utility and blast infusions into separate pools and providing 10 choices from each over 20 levels instead of just 10 total between them, more/better Substance infusions

Edit: forgot some minor ones:

5) We want the fantastic bonuses from kinetic form, but nobody really wants to walk around all day as an amorphous blob of element. Solution: give the bonuses of kinetic form without actually polymorphing the kineticist

6) Fire's defense is terrible and air is "just ok." Solution: make them better, especially by giving more return for Burn.

Problems about half the community seems to have while the other half does not:

1) Burn is too punitive

2) Accuracy is too low

Solutions: I have no clue because I don't have a problem with these things.

What about Vital Strike with kinetic blade and conductive weapon interaction?

Also, other minor points:

1) the wild talents' spell level equivalency causing confusion when calculating the DC of an infused kinetic blast. This also leads to low DCs for higher level play (example: burning infusion). Suggested: set the DC for all 10 +1/2 kineticist level + constituion modifier

2) level requirement for Extra Wild Talent feat (which is still unofficial) and Expanded Element, reducing the possibility to "multiclass" between elements and adding extra confusion when choosing wild talents.

3) aether composites...

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.More kinetic defenses like: Incorporeal or semiincorporeal forms (force, sand, wind, flame, water); [elemental]Skins giving elemental resistances/immunities or maybe an ability to absorb [elemental] damage and reduce the Burn currently suffering; environmental bubble to resist gravity, deepwater pressure, space void, low/high temperature

.tricomposites (no idea sorry!)

.ash themed wild talents to create ashstorms, ashcurses, blighted ash spawn or other Morrowindesque effects

.move earth and stoneshape powers and heat manipulation so I don't have to wait a turn for solarbeam to recharge

.acid attacks, because missing the green guy of "Castle Crashers" as well as other corroding effects and rust

.wild talents to create Totems made of element to gather more energy or to obstruct other kineticists energy/elemental gathering. Also the "totem" reinforces the element is made of and weakens opposing elements

.glass and crystalline spell-like abilities, maybe creating mirrors to confuse enemies (working like some illusion spells) and crystal geodes working like "totems" to increase potency of earth spells or other effects with earth descriptor

.[elemental] sustain to eat/drink your element to survive and a sort of rope trick usable

.photokinesis attacks to blind and damage undeads, fungi and oozes and also to travel fast much like Solar Oracular Mistery

.Damage Over Time effects: lava pool, shockfield or a minor polar midnight

.melee touch buffs to transfer effects like kinetic defenses or transfer Burn from others to the kineticist

.anti-radiation aura, maybe absorbing in exchange of Burn points and Radioactive skin (maybe working like abundant ammunition spell) to recharge futuristic weapons

.use fire wild talents to fuel vehicles, for crafting and forging time reductions and illumination

I liked the Burn and the Gather element/energy synergy, so we finished turning it into a separate class feature named Gather Element (Su) and we are now playtesting with these changes:


.Increased the Burn reduction Kineticst gets at 1st level when gathering elemental matter: at 7th level as a move action the Kineticist gathers element for a 2 Burn point reduction or 1 point reduction and gathering as a Swift Action.
At 11th the reduction applies also to "Other wild talents".
At 15th level as a move action the kineticist gather element for a 3 point reduction, 2 point if gathering as a swift action or 1 point if gathering as a free action. The kineticist still requires two hand free.

This substituted wild talents gained at 7th and 15th.

.Substituted Infusion Specialization with Expanded Talent, a new class features that elects to choose "utility" wild talents (those in the category named "Other Wild Talents" plus the Expanded Element wild talents). Also at 2nd level the Kineticist receives now an Expanded Talent.

.change skill points gaininig to 4 + int, spellcraft and knowledge(planes) as class skill for all

.heat blast for Fire, dealing untyped damage and hitting normal AC

.acid blast for Earth, dealing acid damage like fire blast

I actually played two of them and got better results from level 1 to 20, with issues only in the first three levels of playing:

One is XVIZVIOR, a LizardFolk pyroKineticist with natural attacks, improved unarmed strike with 2WF and using Kinetic Fist always and using Searing flesh almost to finish enemies striking at first levels, then using multiple kinetic defenses.
Damage was good and precision not an issue even at first levels, but damage taken hurted a lot until 5 when took infusion specializaztion (form) to negate kinetic fist BURN and fullattack all the way. At 7th took expanded element for Aether and then expanded defense. At 15 th expanded element with AIR to negate annoying ranged attacks. Because of the low initiative the Lizardfolk did not suffered from needing to pounce for fullattacking. At 13th he became a sort of dimensional dervisher limited times per day with a ranged kinetic blast quickened and with ride the blast, then kinetic fist to fullattack with unarmed strike and natural attacks added. The real winner was Greater kinetic form (air), for increased STR and DEX.

The other one I played was TITAN, a Human geokineticist focused on Overrun maneuver, Charge with Rhino charge to ready a charge in the most favorable moment and Spring attack while earth gliding as a backup strategy. This was more tanky, focusing only in STR and CON and investing feats in heavy armor prof (yeah stoneplate armor!). Expanded element (water) and (aether) along with expanded defense for real tankyness. Kinetic form was helping alot! The increased reach also turned in a mini-combat patrol and helped a lot while overruning. Did not use kinetic blade for this build until level 9, but a morningstar twohanded.

I prefer using STR for builds instead of DEX because STR seems to be more buffable (size increments, bloodrage spell + courageous weapon, etc).

Rerednaw wrote:
PhoenixLife wrote:

Did some more looking into the class and was drooling over Ride the Blast. I can’t help but feel like it might be a little broken. Not sure if this has been covered elsewhere in this thread, but at 40 pages and counting I can’t really read the whole thread. (Insert ‘Ain’t Nobody Got Time for That’ meme here.)

Now, Ride the Blast….

I could (at level 10) charge up to 480 feet in a straight line or snake a path of up to 120 feet without provoking any AoO from my movement and without being affected by hindered terrain. I’d then reach my target, where I’d get to ...

Ride the Blast is part of your attack action with a blast. You end up next to your target...and then next round yes you can act. But it is a nice gap closer. Especially with the right timing.

The awesomEST part comes at Kineticist level 13th, when he can throw a quickened kinetic blast (3 burn), then Ride the Blast (0 burn) and finish with a Kinetic Blade (with form specialized infusion for no burn here) fullattacking the enemy and screaming [insert YOUR technique name here]...

Limited time per day but fun as hell!
Also RtB it's not a teleportation effect (it might be a transmutation [polymorph]?) so no dimensional anchor blocking the kineticist!

Can the blast spell equivalent level be reduced when casting a kinetic blast?
For instance can an 8th level aerokineticist still cast his electric blast (equivalent of 4th level) in a spellstoring +1 spiked gauntlet?

Will be released a Revised Kineticist playtest version? 25th of November is way too close.

Also, when using metakinesis (double) on an already empowered blast, are both blasts empowered?

What if Doubling a Kinetic Blade? Can a Kineticist attack with two-weapon fighting in this case?

It seems that feats like Spell Penetration and Spell focus work with Spell-like abilities; if any, is Evocation the magic school of kinetic blasts?

Thanks XandZero2 for writing exactly what I'd have written

Also, why are you rage cycling as a bloodrager? You would have to swap out virtually all of your bloodline to get enough 1/rage rage powers to make it remotely useful (since they are markedly inferior to beast totem line/ superstition/witch hunter). You don't take advantage of your action economy saving spell autocasting by cycling.

BloodRage Cycle is useful:

bloodrage ON -> cast True Strike -> attack -> bloodrage off -> bloodrage ON -> cast true strike ETC...

The same goes for a Samsaran Bloodrager with Bladed Dash...

There are many others

Hi Paizonians,
as title says I'm here to share a different concept of prestige classes, which is in practical a new Base Class:

The Prestige Trained (name is awful)

The purpose of this class is
1) having fun and enjoy Pathfinder gaming
2) convert a prestige class into a base class, which can have its own fun and impact
3) having fun and contribute and enjoy Pathfinder gaming

Here is the class, written [irony]intentionally [/irony] in arcanic and cryptic eenglisc (seriously, sorry in advance for my illiteracy):

Prestige Trained:

Prestige Trained

LV Bab T R V Speciale
1 * * * * association,feat,basics(1°),

2 feat,extra lesson
3 extra lesson
4 basics(2°)
5 extra lesson
6 feat,basics(3°)
7 extra lesson
8 basics(4°)
9 extra lesson
10 feat,basics(5°)
11 extra lesson,prestige master
12 basics(6°)
13 extra lesson
14 feat,basics(7°)
15 extra lesson
16 basics(8°)
17 extra lesson
18 feat,basics(9°)
19 extra lesson
20 basics(10°),prestige legend

Association: beginning from the first level, the PT chooses a prestige
class, to which she will refer to from this point on. This selection
determines PT's base attack bonus, class hit die, selection of
abilities and number of ranks gained per level as well as weapon and
armor proficiencies and finally the name of the PT. If the prestige
class chosen has no ability selection, the PT treats as class abilities
all the abilities that are mentioned in the prestige class description,
along with those that are part of the requirement. Same goes for
weapon, armor and shield profiency, except that the PT is at least
competent in using the Wizard's weapon selection.

The Prestige Trained also strictly aderehes to moral codes or guild or
philosophical and ethical thoughts that are normally part of the
prestige class requirement. The same restriction applies also to
alignment, which can't be more than one step from the prestige classe
alignment requirement, and as for spellcasting the Prestige Trained is
limited in casting spells that have an alignment descriptor different
from hers, much like a Cleric or Druid. She must take whatever
religion, deity, pantheon and other phylosophies the prestige class has
and she loses her abilities much like a paladin does if he does not
respect his code. As the Paladin, an atonement spell can restore the
lost abilities.
The Prestige Trained must also respect the alignment restriction of the
base classif she obtains a class ability that's normally tied to him.
For example if she gains Rage, she must be chaotic as a Barbarian.
The Prestige Trained cannot multiclass with a prestige class, but can
start as a Prestige Trained of that prestige class, treating this as a
totally different class as much as a fighter and a rogue class are.

Bonus Feat: the PT gains a bonus feat at 1st level, which must be one
of the feats that are normally requirements entries for the prestige
class. This does give the PT the chance to ignore feats requirements.
She gains another of those feats at 2nd and every four levels
afterward. If there are no more eligible feats, the PT may choose any
feats she qualifies for.

Basics: at every level indicated on the table, beginning from 1st the
PT gains knowledge of better training. She can choose from one of the
class abilities available on the first level of the prestige class
associated, gaining that ability and using her total PT as her level
for determining all variables and numerical advancement.
She must choose a feature that does not require other class abilities
to function, neither feat requirement. If she can't select a class
feature with this method, the PT can still take an illegal feature and
start using it only as she gets all the requirements needed.
The PT uses half of her level to determine the DC of abilities based on
prestige class level. If a calculation is made using a part only of the
class level, it will use the same formula, except for prestige class
level which is substituted by PT class level.

Class features that have a numerical part, as well as sneak attack or
similar linear damage progression, can be selected once and they
continue to advance progressively. For mechanical part advancement such
as new wild shape forms or extra rage powers or the like, they must be
selected again with a new Basics instance. If a class feature has both
a numerical progression and new mechanics, the numerical part increases
regularly while new mechanics must be selected with the next Basics
selection or with Extra Lesson privilege.
If the associated prestige class has a selection of class features
which can be chosen at a regular advancement, such as bonus feat or
magus arcana, the PT can select those every time she obtains a new
Basics o Extra Lesson feature, ignoring the normal progression and
exceeding the quantity of these features the prestige class would had.
By level 4th the Pt gains a new Basics and can select from 2nd level
class features. Every two level afterwards, she gains a new Basics
feature and the level from which she can select increases by one.

Extra Lesson: at 2nd level and again at 3rd and every two levels from
this point onwards, the PT gains a new class feature taken from the
prestige class associated at level unlocked by Basics. If there are no
more class features electable, she instead gains a Bonus Feat, as
described above. This works like Basics except that the PT does not
increase the prestige class level she can choose features.

Spellcaster: the PT gains caster levels beginning from the first level
if the prestige class has a spellcasting progression, trading first
level Basics for this feature. The PT choose a basic class spellcasting
ability and copy their functioning, if the class chosen would normally
be sufficient to fulfill all the prestige class requirements by only
advancing in level.
The PT inherits the following by the class she mimics:
.magic type, arcane or divine, even alchemical formulae
.alignment spellcasting restriction, as druid or cleric
.rest time, preparation time and how regains spell slot
.new spells learning advancement, both number by level and maximum
spell level known
.caster level and spell selection

If the prestige class refers directly to a key class feature, as it can
be a Domain or Bardic Performance, the PT must choose the basic class
it pertains.

The PT loses Extra Lesson depending on spellcaster class chosen,
effectively trading them for advancing in spellcasting, as the
.spellcaster class with 4th level max spell known, loses 2nd and 12th
.spellcaster class with spells up to 6th level, loses 2nd,8th and 14th
.spellcaster class with spells up to 9th level, loses 2nd,6th,10th,14th
and 18th

If the prestige class advances in more than one spellcasting class, the
PT can gain a second spellcasting class, by forfetting her Bonus Feat.
For every Bonus Feat she trades in, the PT gains an effective level
advance in one of the spellcasting class she has. She cannot have a
spellcasting level higher than her PT level for any reason.
Every tyme she advances a level in PT, she chooses what spellcasting
level to increase.

Finally if the prestige class associated has its own spellcasting
progression and caster level abilities, the PT advances in it as
described before, except that she only gains spellcasting augments at
the 1st level and every two levels thereafter and using her total PT
level as the caster level.

Prestige Master: by level 11th, the PT becomes a master of prowess and
can start teaching her profession. She chooses a number of students
equal to her Charisma modifier. The training takes a month to be
completed with at least 8 hours of physical and mental excercise per
day, both for the master and the student. Finally, the apprendists
gains a level of PT associated in the prestige class chosen by the
master. First level npc, pc or monster with one hit die can substitute
their level for this. This ability represents the background
preparation every PT receives.

Prestige Legend: by level 20th the PT can select instead of the Basics
advancement of this level, one from the following:
.assassination, as ninja or rogue advanced talent, choosing between
Charisma or Intelligence and requiring only a standard action of study.
.weapon mastery, as fighter cap ability.
.metamagic mastery, as universalist wizards, except consuming always a
single use.
.immortality, the PT does not advance in age anymore. Should the PT
die, she reincarnates 24 hours after up to 1 mile of distance from the
point of death, with two negative levels. If she dies again before
removing them, she dies forever.
.solemn master, her prestige master class feature advance. The time to
train is reduced to 1 day of 24 hours of continuos training and
students gain immediately 5 levels of PT. Additionally, the number of
students she can train is increased by half of her level. If this class
feature would be used in actual gameplay, the PT can only have half of
his level + her Charisma modifier of students at a time, treating them
as extra Followers of the Leadership feat.

And here's a link to google documents.

The key of this class is the Association class feature, which links the Prestige Trained to the prestige class you are considering. Take these easy steps to do this:
1) keep this open or the google document
2) open the prestige class you are focusing on
3) write down a progression of feats and features you are going to take
4) create the character
5) compare it to others or try it against any challenge and post reports!

So, what to do next? Have fun trying to build various PCs or NPCs, at what level you prefer, having the Prestige Trained as one of his or her classes. I wish you enjoy this as I.


This class is bad written!
Yes it is. So don't waste time on this if you're looking for an easy-readable post.

This class is notbalanced/broken/overpowered!
Yes it is. For class balance wait for 2.0 edition or just add random 'cant exceed X', 'cant take Y' or 'giveaway Z feature' that always work well. I trust you.

This class is too way complicated!
Yes it is. Just relax and focus, I'm sure that if you want you can do it.

This is the same as X class from Y!
If it does, we had the same great idea! No one is omniscient, you will have to trust me when I'm saying that I don't spend time stealing ideas around and that's only the product of my work.

I don't get it!
Try intepreting. And ask. Maybe because of first FAQ.

I'm not taking all features the prestige class has
That's not intentional and for sure not intended, so I must work on it if you find any.

One last word
I'm not a publisher, neither a game developer, just a gamer as many. If you do like the concept and think it can have some potential, work on it and please let US know. Be critical, be pro-positive.

Post any, if you have time to. For fast and better comprension, use spoilers or bold text or italics, whatever, to distinct the build posted, the suggestions/criticism and questions.

Shatter defense sap master multiweapon pounce of the vivisectionist beastmorph.

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Pathfinder Rules You Don't Like

Creatures Size Rules. An enlarged creature doesn't even have an increased speed. Also 5ft steps are the same for every size. The bonuses and penalties...

We pretty much houserule all, for those interested:


-larger creatures than medium get Basic step (which was once upon a time the 5ft step) equal to their space (actually the shortest of the two dimensions), a +2 sq increment for every size larger than medium if the creature is enlarging or a penalty if reducing, to a minimum of 2 sq movement (10 foot)
-larger creatures have area attacks while attacking with manufactured or natural weapons (which is equal to its space)
-difference between tall and long creatures: long creatures have the Slight build special ability, while tall creatures have extra reach, increased basic step and area weapon attacks (they count as one extra size)
Many more I don't remember...

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Be a Sage Sorcerer and focus on INT, then go Arcane Trickster.

Dualcursed (wolfscarred face, deaf) samsaran (gets strong jaw) dark tapestry (or whatever gives you a huge size for most of the time) with an amulet of mighty fists with Impact property. Then take improved natural attack, improved flyby attack and vital strike line feat as feats.

Add in Aasimar with scion of humanity.

First, let me say that this guide is great, possibily the best one I've seen around cause gets updated and covers many aspects with useful informations for Oracle class players. So, great job here and keep it updated: your work is really appreciated!

Second, this guide and many hours of playing with oracle PCs made me appreciate this class a lot. The oracle class is great, very fun to play and creative. It's the only class I consider to play multiple times and without getting bored, because of the flexibility and adaptability to every concept (thanks to the curse and the mistery mechanics).

Third, I would like to contribute sharing my impressions and game experience with this fantastic class:
- oracle's armor (refered to the tipical armor the oracle can conjure that lasts [lv] hours and gives a scaling armor bonus) is always a great choice, possibily every oracle 7th level revelation (with a duration of 7 hours). Speaking by numbers, at level 7th you will have an armor with an AC of 6, no penalties neither constrictions which can be improved to 7 with a magic vestment spell (same duration!). Also, it's a very useful buff to use while sleeping. By level 20 you can reach a 12 AC bonus + 5 from magic vestment = 17 total armor bonus, not bad at all...
- aasimar, ifrit and sylph makes for great oracles because of the racial favorited class bonus. Unless I'm reading it wrong, possible great uses are: spirit of the warrior [ancestor] by level 11 will give 16 bab, so 4 attacks and a really good bonus to hit, CMD and qualify for amazing feats like dazing and stunning assault (also having a greater DC). By level 20 a 30 bab... Same, but limited, for maneuver mastery [battle]; raise of the dead [bones] will last more and will let you conjure a really strong -fast advanced- zombie (no HD cap); many forms [dark tapestry] by level 10 you will have access to greater polymorph; form of flame [flame] and water form [waves] for even more hours and polymorph by level 9 into a huge elemental form with elemental body IV; mental acuity [lore] for even extra intelligence (by level 20, a +8); bonded mount (nature) calculates your companion using your level (x1.5); spell resistance [spellscar] for quasi-immunity to spells! (level 12 -> 23, level 20 -> 35 SR). The possibilities... I'm not sure about the DC of abilities like lignification that uses level to calculate the DC. In this case the racial favored class bonus of the aasimar might increase the DC by 5...
- halfelf is possibily the best race for the oracle. With Paragon Surge spell, this class becomes the king of versatility

My girlfriend plays an aasimar Life Oracle with spells focused on siege engines and crafting construct in a steampunk campaign and firearms. A sort of Seraphim from Sacred the fallen angel game...
Life Oracle are solid healers, check out there in the guide to the oracle for more specific considerations on revelations.

Oracles. No archetypes really needed, just different curses and mysteries. I am currently playing in a group of 7 oracles: Flame, Waves, Wind, Wood, Metal, Bones and Life. We have the blaster, the tank, the sniper, the trapper, the crafter, the caster and the healer.
For a more D&D traditional group I would reccomend Battle, Life, Lore, Dark Tapestry and Nature.
Also, if you ever heard about Castle Crashers, then Flame, Waves, Wind and Stone mandatory.

Ravingdork wrote:
I would also NEVER allow it to stack with itself for extra feats and spells. One casting at a time.

Paragon Surge it's a polymorph effect so it is always one casting at a time.

Best thing to do is to use contingency with this to not lose actions or spell slots. Oracles must use paragon surge to get contingency to have paragon surge contingent on subsequent days.

Trikk wrote:
It's pretty obvious to me that you take whatever is worse when you cannot switch between modes of attack

That's exactly the kind of logic I use: you are both A and B, A says you are Ok but B means you should be restricted, so you are restricted. I admit this is more a MTG kind of logic, so maybe for Pathfinder is invalid reasoning...

Gauss wrote:

Rationale for my position on manufactured weapons:


You Gauss have always something to say, even when I stole your words! But seriously, a morning star (leaving a part the fact that can have different styles) is more efficient than an hammer underwater, thanks to spikes and rounded ball (cubic or sharpened objects offer more resistance), so it might stand between full damage and half damage (0.75?)...

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

This is a continuation of this thread. Some info about underwater combat are in the GMG while the CRB has only a short descriptive text and a table with penalties applying in water-environment combat. Apparently aquatic creatures just ignore the penalties, while land-based creatures take a -2 to hit and half damage while attacking underwater with any slashing or bludgeoning weapon.

James Jacobs stated however that manufactured weapons even wielded by aquatic creatures are meant to be penalized.
The questions are:

Are natural weapons (both of water native creatures and landbased creatures) affected by the penalties? Do aquatic creatures have penalties while attacking with manufactured weapons underwater?

Discuss and FAQ.

Also, Sanakht Inaros don't bite me for this. I understood your position :P

EDIT: actually the RAW in GMG seems to imply that aquatic creatures do not take penalties with neither natural or manufactured weapons. This part is also missing in the CRB, so the FAQ is a request for putting a text in the CRB.

This thread is a follow up of this one, but considering only this question:

Assuming that you are fighting with a morning star do you do half or all the damage while attacking underwater?

Answers so far:


Jiggy wrote:

Its damage is both piercing and bludgeoning, and is therefore bludgeoning. Thus, anything affecting bludgeoning damage will affect it.

Roac wrote:

I'm going to have to disagree with Jiggy here.

I would think that it works like DR on monsters. That is to say, if you don't have both types you can't overcome the DR (or in this case do damage). Here's a relevant quote from the Beastiary: "A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction, and a weapon must be both types to overcome this type of damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction."
Mojorat wrote:

I think for the budgeoning slashing piercing thing you need to extrapolate logic here.

The majority of bludgeoning and slashing weapons in the game either have to be swung in an arc to use them or in the case of swords have flat blades making them difficult to adjust side to side. Where as most piercing weapons are thrust.

Anyhow i think thats the intent of the rule

Gauss wrote:

My take is that manufactured weapons that have an OR should be able to do whatever is most favorable. Manufactured weapons that have an AND should be affected by what is least favorable.

For creatures the main issues are bite and claw attacks. I can see Bite ignoring the half damage penalty but claws are a questionmark in my mind. However, since both bite and claw do all 3 types at once an argument can be made for the AND statement I made in my last paragraph.

James Jacobs wrote:

That text is pretty awkwardly written, I'll agree.

My take: Creatures that have the aquatic type don't have to worry about those penalties... but ALL manufactured weapons must abide by these rules, regardless of whether or not the creature wielding them is aquatic.

Discuss here please.

Sanakht Inaros wrote:
The table itself states that these penalties are applicable to LAND- BASED CREATURES. How much more implicit do you want? Do you want a full list?

The 'Any thought?' is refered most to questions number 5 and 7 that are still without any answer...

Gauss wrote:

1) I personally disagree with rays not being subject to the underwater penalties but thats just me.

3) My take is that manufactured weapons that have an OR should be able to do whatever is most favorable. Manufactured weapons that have an AND should be affected by what is least favorable.

For creatures the main issues are bite and claw attacks. I can see Bite ignoring the half damage penalty but claws are a questionmark in my mind. However, since both bite and claw do all 3 types at once an argument can be made for the AND statement I made in my last paragraph.

5) I believe that B is correct. The rationale:
If 5A were to be used it would work like this: You are using a fire within 10feet per level as a 'crystal ball' in order to use clairvoyance. However, clairvoyance does not require this so while this could make sense it is a change.

If 5B were to be bused it would work like this: You are using clairvoyance normally and the sensor is any active fire on the other end. You can see around that fire 10feet per level. This to me makes alot more sense than 5A and is closer to how clairvoyance works.

7) By RAW at level 20 the Wood Oracle would become immune to her own polymorph effects. Bestiary p301 immunity does not offer any ways to bypass or drop immunities.

However, I would houserule that the Wood Oracle could still do so if he/she desired.

- Gauss

1) Can I ask you why you would apply these penalties to rays?

3) Interesting idea. I'm going to make a thread apart for this question...
5) That makes sense. Also, -A- has very limited range, it would be very weak comparing that with the other clairvoyance sense of Wind and Waves oracles counterparts.
7) So immunity to polymorph isn't like having an unbeatable SR?

Gauss wrote:

This is clearly a situation where the text from the GMG should be included in the CRB. Oh well.

- Gauss

Totally. And thanks to everyone for clarification of this underwater combat.

I'm dividing the 3 answers left (3,5 and 7) in 3 different threads, so we can discuss with no confusion.

EDIT: This is the thread for weapons with both type of damage

This one is for natural attacks and manufactured weapons underwater, just to request a FAQ for better rewrite.

Last Bump. Or I'll let this thread die.

I endorse Ravindork's build efficacy. I played a very similar one, but with combat patrol, greater trip and fury's fall (add twice Dex bonus for tripping with a dervish dancer build). Combat patrol helps a lot moving around when surrounded by many, add in combat reflexes and tripping maneuvers for total fun...

So having the aquatic subtype is the way to save a character from these restrictions? Seems reasonable.

Answers so far:
1) rays are not weapons so no penalty underwater.
2) aquatic (subtype) creatures are not affected by penalties for underwater combat (no RAW supporting).
3) weapons that deals both type of damage can either deal full or half the damage, take or not the penalty for attacking underwater, subject to GM fiat (no real RAW, table lacks specifics on this).
4) no deadly aim for bombs.
6) Wood and Metal are intended to be superior to weapon at-fly-summoning/creation than Ancestor.

5) and 7) still wait, here they are for quick and easy reference:

5) I'm always failing on translating the Gaze of Flames revelation. Does it means:
A. You use a source of fire that is between 10 feet per oracle level and you can see with your normal sight
B. You can use a source of fire that is in the spell's range (400 ft + 40 ft per level) and your sight through it is only 10 ft per level?

7) If you are immune to polymorph spells are you immune to your beneficial polymorph spells? Wood oracles with Tree Form won't like to reach level 20...

Any thought?

I never played a character with a Strength score lower than 12!

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