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Augmented Gearsman

45ur4's page

270 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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pH unbalanced wrote:

So I was just looking at putting a Medium together, and one of the things that I noticed was that the lower the point-buy of the game, the more useful a Medium was.

In a 15 (or, goddess-forbid, 10 pt game) your ability to move your stat-bonus around daily becomes more valuable. No matter which spirit you use, your casting stat is always CHA, so you're paradoxically a rather SAD character. Just don't dump any of your stats, and you'll be fine when you need to focus on them.

Add in Divine fighting technique of Desna and Noble scion of war feats, then contact the Lich archmage legendeary spirit to start the lichdom path at higher levels. The SADdest of any Medium life

Rub-Eta wrote:

1) Yes and yes.

2) This feat does not use the influence mechanics.
3) A Medium can not dismiss a channeled spirit. If you have preformed your class feature seance for the day, you can't use the feat for 24 hours. If you lose the spirit from breaking the taboo, you cannot channel spirits of that legend for 1 week (this should override the feat as well). But you can probably channel a new spirit after this.
4) The Spirit Ridden feat is it's own feat and nothing is mentioned to exclude it from working with both this feat and the class feature.
5) You can not share the seance boon, since it's not mentioned anywhere that you can.
6) It says "Select one of the spirit legends available to a medium", not "Select one of the spirit legends available to you". You can only select the spirits available to a regular (non-archetyped) medium.

All in all, the feat is pretty s@*@ for a medium (or anyone, really, as getting NPC'd is about the worst thing that could happen, since you don't get to play). I only see any value in it if you don't start your day by using your class feature for some extra flexibility.

1) Why so? If that's the case, Channel Spirit is great when taken for Archmage, Hierophant and Trickster spirit types! A medium could change her selection of spells/skills every hour solving any particular situation. If becoming an NPC is a concern, then just channeling archmage for a couple of minutes just to cast spells, then stop, then go crazy for a couple of minutes only, which is acceptable for what's in return.

2) I am not so sure. The feat seems to imply that the character gains no taboo nor influence, not saying either "starting influence" nor "any influence at all". Maybe this is written with the idea that nonMedium characters would use it and would have no Spirit Powers (the only thing aside spirit surge that can increase the influence), so no need to limit the feat.
3) Dont know why using the Medium class feature should prevent using the feat, they're separate things supposedly. But as you're saying it in the second part, you may lose the spirit channeled through the class feature via breaking the taboo, then as you answered in 1) any Medium could use the feat again and again in the day.
4) True. It just seems... wrong. But as you said, it's RAW
5) RAW true
6) Again, RAW true. Kami medium would love to channel Archmages, or even the Lich or Nex...

My conclusion it's quite the opposite, but this is a personal opinion. For my game experience this feat it was great for my Medium to speed up its versatility sometimes "repairing" what it seems broken/missing in the standard class. It was also splendid for the spirit dancer, to gain more "stamina" and use extra skills&spells more times in the day.

The great things about the feat are:
channeling a new spirit each time just to change the previous one selections, in the case of trickster for skills and archmage/hierophant for spells;
gain a spirit without having to care about influence, well could hurt a bit to Marshals;
Medium still gains Spirit Powers for the spirits of the feats!

Bad things:
character becomes an NPC. Meh, that's not fun. You say it. At least the time spent channeling (and consequently the same time to be passed as NPC) is manageable, even in minutes or seconds, so just "don't channel spirit via the feat for more than couple of hours continuosly" is a good rule of thumb;
influence-increasing abilities might not be usable (question opened, see point 3), so decreasing the usefulness of Archmages and Marshals. Champions and Hierophants are untouched, just to say...

CBDunkerson wrote:
I'd say it simply can't be done... you are incapable of calling another spirit while channeling one via the feat. You would need to stop channeling your current spirit... at which point it takes control of you for some number of hours... and then only when you regained control could you use your normal Medium seance.

It seems reasonable. I guess that using Trance of Three could be possible to channel a spirit from the feat and one from the Medium class feature...

And what about the starting questioms?

Chess Pwn wrote:

My issue with spirit dancer is noted above and copied below.

And the spirit dancer archetypes don't work so well at this because you'll often want to have a certain spirit for hours at a time. Like how good is the dancer at a dinner party? I'm drab and lifeless UP UNTIL the 6-12 seconds that I make the check in. Be horrible at chess, UP UNTIL the 6 seconds that the check to decide winner is done to be awesome, then finish fatigued? Want to use cure wands to heal up? Better not need it since you don't have the rounds to heal up with.
if you had 1 minute per contact and roughly equal uses of the ability it'd probably be more worthwhile, then if you need to heal your party you actually have time to and not be worthless for the rest of the day. Rounds limit worth great for good combat boosters, rage, bane and bardsong. But once you factor in OOC uses to the same pool of combat uses, you don't have enough. If barbs had to rage the entire time it took to heal them with wands they'd never have enough rounds of rage to fight with.

Channel Spirit feat really improves Medium's life, even for Spirit Dancer. Seriously that feat is incredible, up to the point that any Medium won't use his normal seance anymore. Spirit dancer will love using the feat to channel Archmage and hierophant spirits in downtime.

While we are at it, there are some questions pending for that feat

From my game experience, the Medium class without the aforementioned feat (taken at least twice) or an archetype (specially the Spirit Dancer) is not fun as fun, but still playable and enjoyable if focusing in one spirit type only and channeling that everyday. Guardian and Marshal are the two spirit thpes that won't make the medium a subrogate of other classes (like the champion spirit with the fighter class), so opening for many interesting concepts that are not doable/replaceable by other characters.

Another question:

Channel Spirit feat wrote:
If you have the spirit class feature, you can’t use this feat and act as a vessel for a second spirit simultaneously

What happens if a Medium has channeled a spirit via the feat, then calls another one with his class feature? Does the new one overrides the first or does the new seance just fail? This is more prominent for Spirit Dancer Mediums

Fromper wrote:
swoosh wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

Doing that lets you go with the Champion legend as your primary legend without having to rely on your penalized strength.
That would help, but I think the biggest trouble from the OP's post is that the champion spirit is overdone and boring moreso than how good or bad it might be for this particular build.

Yeah, but I'll probably end up just going that straight champion route. Weapon Finesse and racial rapier proficiency, along with all the champion's bonuses and the archetype's additional bonuses could be good enough. I'm considering TWF and just carrying a dagger as my second weapon, so I can channel a lesser champion spirit for more surges per day until level 6, since I won't need any extra proficiencies.

Just a little boring and generic, and doesn't take advantage of the class's flexibility, which somewhat defeats the purpose of playing a medium. And on the off day that I do happen to use a different spirit, I won't have to worry about losing weapon proficiency.

Ok don't want an archetype? But what about the Channel Spirit feat? That improves greatly a Medium' versatility, depending on the campaing and your plastyle. Just instead of doing a normal seance in the morning, do wait for the campaign to evolve, then start the feat seance to gain the bonuses of the chosen legend (need skill training on the fly? Want that particular and very specific spell that would have helped a lot?), then just stop the seance and repeat until you know you are going to adventure or combat a lot, in which case it is going to be more useful doing the normal class seance to get the benefits till next day. That feat is going to change a lot your versatility. You can also use that feat many times in the day.

Also, give this archetype a chance , cuz it changes your "casting stat" to one of the two grippli improved ability scores and it increases flexibility. Thanks to Channel Spirit you are not going to be a dead weight when finishing the rounds per day of Spirit Dancing

Fromper wrote:

So has anyone come up with any sort of viable adventuring medium that doesn't focus mostly on the champion spirit? Or even if they do focus on that spirit, can you pull off any combat style effectively other than a big, two handed weapon and Power Attack?


Any other suggestions for medium builds that don't just try to impersonate a barbarian with a great sword?

I've played these differents Medium and had a ton fun:

A catfolk Uda Wendo Medium mainly focused on Trickster spirits. The main goal was to have a lot of skills ranks, coupled with the trickster spirit bonus that applies to ALL skill checks it makes for a great SkillMonkey. I've also taken the Spirit Ridden feat, meaning that every day I could choose 3 different skills to be very effective (craft, use magic device, knowledge were frequent choices). Have taken weapon finesse and some Channel Spirit (archmage, hierophant) to cast some spells when needed or downtime. Finally at 17th using greater polymorph to charge-pounce-rake-grab while dealing 6d6 extra precision damage was amazing. Abeast literally both incombat and out of combat. Also Uda Wendo plus archamage/hierophant = win

A centaur relic channeler focused mainly on guardian spirits. With a fullplate adamantine armor, a mithral heavy shield and a impact lance, then took the Spirited Charge feat and the Combat stamina feat then finally barroom brawler and that Natural Jouster, made this a beast. Combat stamina give more damage for spirited charge and makes barroom brawler usable as a swift action (which I used to pick occasional other feats to combine with stamina points, like Improved disarm or Improved Trip, which also thanks to Combat Stamina feat did ever required a high intelligence score). Also, while the guardian is not great on precision and damage, the Spirited Charge feat makes up for that. Even if the GM would have disabled taking the centaur race, it would have worked by changing into another race and taking the Animal Ally feat to get a Charger mount

A human kami medium with a Sage Shikigami, a warrior combatant (GM allowed only NPC classes to be taken as cohorts with Leadership feat) and a Wolf animal companion, gifted by the Animal Ally feat. This was focused on Marshal Spirits and taking that human FCB to have so much spirit surge rerolls (which thankfully to the kami medium archetype, is possible to accrue from first level, because the kami medium has the Taboo class feature from 1st level). Swift Aid feat, bodyguard feat and Benevolent armor&weapon with traits that augmented Aid Another action (forgot the name) with a morningstar wielded twohanded. The best thing was that Insipiring bonus which Marshal gives as intermediate power, to apply the spirit bonus to attack rolls&damage of all your allies.

Lastly, a kitsune spirit dancer focused on two.weapon fighting with two Agile wakizashis. Then added Possessed hand feat and hand's autonomy which were very useful for two-weapon attacks and having an extra attack/action per round, all while being supercool temathic and freak. Bought a couple of Channel Spirit feat (archmage hierophant), just to have more durability during the day adventure in town or other safe locations to save spirit dance rounds for combat and ambushes. Very powerful and adaptable, it was unstoppable...

I hade some minor retrainings, one worth to mention for the kami medium to get rid of the Channel Spirit (archmage) feat when the GM decided that it could not be used by a kami medium. The kick for any Medium is Channel Spirit feat, so any medium can channel spirit that are useful in some situations, than go crazy, then make his normal class seance for prolonged and undisturbed benefits or start another feat seance.


1. The channel spirit feat says that a medium gains spirit powers as normal, so for example when channeling an Archmage a small list of spells must be selected. If then the medium chooses to summon again the archmage in the same day via this feat, does he have the same selection of spells or can select different spells?
2.doesn't the last sentence of the feat says that a medium gains normal spirit powers?
3. And 5. I know that I can ask the GM, indeed is the first thing I did as usual for every sensate player. Im asking here on the boards mainly to confront opinions of other gm/players, but also to know whats RAW and RAI about it.
4. I see that in the same way, but it seems to contradict the intention of channeling a spirit with seances. Both the medium and the channel spirit feat keep on repeating that a character cannot be possessed by more than one spirit at the same time. Spirit ridden seems to be not, maybe there is a missing line?
6. I think that the first line is speaking mainly to non-medium characters to direct them to go reading the spirit types described in the medium class.

I've got a bunch of questions on interactions between the Channel Spirit feat and the Medium class.
Here's the feat, from the Haunted Heroes Handbook:

From Pathfinder Player Companion: Haunted Heroes Handbook wrote:

Channel Spirit

You can willingly allow spirits to possess you, trading a taste of your life for their knowledge and abilities.

Prerequisite(s): Spirit Ridden or spirit class feature.

Benefit(s): Select one of the spirit legends available to a medium. You can trade control of your body to a spirit of this type for power. You must perform a seance, taking 1 hour and requiring your concentration. At the end of the seance, you invite a spirit of the chosen type to inhabit your body. You do not require an appropriate location to channel the spirit. You gain the benefits of the spirit’s spirit bonus and seance boon, but no spirit powers. Your spirit bonus is +1, or equal to your spirit bonus from any medium class levels you have (whichever is higher). You don’t select a taboo and the spirit gains no influence over you. You can continue to gain the benefits of the spiritual possession for up to 1 hour per character level you have. At the end of the duration, the spirit takes over your body, and you become an NPC under the GM’s control for a duration equal to the amount of time the spirit possessed you. You can end the duration prematurely as a free action, but the spirit still takes over your body. If you have the spirit class feature, you can’t use this feat and act as a vessel for a second spirit simultaneously, but you gain spirit powers as normal for your medium level.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, you gain a new spirit you can channel.

So my questions:

  • Can a medium use the Channel spirit feat multiple times during the day? If so, can he make different choices if he channels the same spirit type?
  • The line "and the spirit gains no influence over you", does it mean that a medium starts with no influence or that no spirit powers nor other influence-increasing abilities can be used with the spirit channeled via this feat?
  • Say a Medium has channeled a spirit of a certain legend then uses any ability to increase his current influence, then dismisses the spirit maybe violating the taboo while reaching 5 influence, can the medium then channel a spirit of that legend with the feat? Is the same spirit or another one with different selections?
  • Can spirit ridden feat be used when a spirit is already channeled in the medium via the channel spirit feat?
  • Can a medium with the share seance boon share the boon bonus of a spirit gained through this feat?
  • If a Medium has a restricted list of spirits, like kami medium or a legendary spirit, does the same restriction applies to spirits called using this feat?

Got it, thank you all for ur input

As the title says, suppose the Medium has a Champion spirit on and rolls a 1 on an attack roll or a fortitude save, does spirit surge activates after the outcome is revealed (hit/miss) or does the rolled 1 just make it a miss in any case?

From PRD, Spirit Surge wrote:

After failing a d20 roll that was modified by his spirit bonus, a medium can allow his spirit to gain 1 additional point of influence over him in order to add 1d6 to the check's result without taking an action.

This can cause the check to succeed instead of fail. The medium must be conscious and aware to use this ability, and he can use this ability at most once per round. At 10th level, the medium's spirit surge die increases to 1d8, and at 20th level it increases to 1d10.

From PRD, Automatic Misses and Hits wrote:
A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit (see the attack action).

What do you think?

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
As written, Aether Elemental is probably best.
How so?
60' flight, permanent invisibility, and blindsight makes it arguably the best scout. But beyond that most of its abilities go obsolete in combat pretty early, and unless you want to rapidly transport (and damage) 100 lb objects 480' per turn I don't see much utility.

Even better than that, the invisibility is useful against sound-based blindsense and blindsight, combined with flight it can be effectively be hidden in any occasion.

This means also that the aether elemental is going to telekinetic maneuver enemies against their "flat-footed CMD" (-> they lose their dex to CMD).

There are also the Arithmancy feat and the Robes of the summit

1. Oracle
2. Kineticist
3. Synthesist

I love playing one-themed focused characters with a mix of martial and spellcasting abilities!

Are these classes a valid entry as well?

Shifter (shapechanger focused class without spells) and Champion (alternate class for the Fighter, enriched with martial styles to choose instead of bonus combat feats), both from this book:

manual of impetuous combat

Also these two:

Pyromancer (a magus style class that mixes martial abilities to fire-spellcasting) and Runic Tattooer (a misterious class that uses magical tattooes to enhance him and his allies), from this book

manual of arcane combat

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

Except I really wanted to go pure Phyto, no other elements.

I realize after the fact I should have been clearer on that, sorry.

I find the sinergy between merciful foliage wild talent, kinetic blade talent and VMC Rogue for sneak Attacks, a really effettive combo for mono phytokineticists, keeping high damage without the need of composites (which is given in any case at level 20 with omnikinesis).

Speaking of utilities, Shape Wood is really the thing you just need as many things can be done with just some cheap wood and creativity.

Pugno D. Brace deals only 5d6 fire damage per unarmed strike, the rest of the damage is physical, so he is still doing 6d8 damage (2d10 for the unarmed strike damage of a monk of level 18 for VMC monk plus 4 levels for the robes of the monk, this increased by two sizes for Kinetic Form) + 19 (dexterity plus weapon enhancement plus 1 damage for having chosen Fire twice for Expanded Element). When using pummeling charge he can make his flurry, for a total of 6 six attacks, with two extra attacks thanks to haste and using a KI point, resulting in:

6d8 (average, 27) + 19 = 46 damage per attack
46 * 8 attacks - 15 DR (applied only once, thx to Pummeling Style) = 353 total damage.

The Balor is down on his next turn (retreat is not an option in this challenge), while the balor does not have any real option to do anything (per the post).

Same goes for the Pit Fiend (which may fail the ST against blindness of the Flashing Infusion) and the Goldie (here Pugno D. Brace has the edge because he gets the surprise round and then wins initiative).

The Mortonator wrote:
Texas Snyper wrote:
45ur4 wrote:

The opinion on Shroud of Water will change accordingly depending on the ruling on this.
What do you mean? The SoW shield is floating. It doesn't need hands.
Right, the mechanics are just a shield bonus, but it's not actually a shield.

What I mean is if kineticists can benefit from a light shield while Gathering Power, then nothing would stop a kineticist from carrying one, preferably without armor check penalty. This decreases the greatness of SoW a bit accordingly 'cause the only real benefit will be saving money (which is superfluous for kineticists).

In those games when a kineticist cannot Gather Power with a shield nor a buckler, SoW in shield form becomes a wonderful AC booster, to be always prioritized in respect of FoW.

N. Jolly wrote:
Texas Snyper wrote:


@shiroi I agree. Already not having to drop half our income on weapons already puts us at a financial advantage in letting us put our money in our gear.
I'm not saying it should have scaling equal to SOW, but something like 1, 8, 16 would make it feel more in line with others rather than the sore thumb that it is.

I'm with Jolly, a small automatic progression would have been appreciated. FoW as it is now is not a great defense compared to other Elemental defenses.

I think that this "enhancement bonus to natural armor" was not the best road to go. Perhaps a small bonus to Stealth and Swim checks or something about natural healing like the Nature Oracle revelation "Spirit of Nature" would have been a better compromise.

Ravingdork wrote:
45ur4 wrote:
About that, Arbutus is carrying a shield and has no quick draw feat or the like, how can he Gather Power?
It's a light shield. Only heavy shields are so heavy that you can't use the hand for anything else. A light shield on the other hand lets you do things like carry items in the shield hand (but not wield weapons), or even reload.

OK. I imagine this is arguable 'cause that rule for light shields is for carrying items only and says nothing about spellcasting or other actions, and may vary from table to table, but you have already anticipated this on your second post.

The opinion on Shroud of Water will change accordingly depending on the ruling on this.

Flesh of Wood tends to be a bit better for a Phytokineticist because there are no real other options to invest burn (almost no Wood utility requires burn to activate).
Duo- or tri-elemental kineticists (phytos or non-phytos) on the other hand have a wider selection of utility wild talents and other elemental defenses that are way better than FoW (Shroud of Water for example as I writed before for example, or Flesh of Stone and Force of Ward as well).

Texas Snyper wrote:
It doesn't "have to" always be the boosted defense. You can use those all day utility Talents like kinetic form too. But yes most of the defense talents should have some invested burn. Aether, earth, and water are the best examples of that.

I agree with you, Kinetic Form is the best example. Semi-defenses (those Utility wild talents that often require its related elemental defense, and provide a defensive bonus all day long, like Shimmering Image or Jagged Flesh) are possibly second.

Ravingdork wrote:
My phytokineticist, Arbutus, absolutely loves his defense wild talent; it's one of the things that allows him to tank so incredibly well. It also allows him to free up his neck slot on far more interesting things.

About that, Arbutus is carrying a shield and has no quick draw feat or the like, how can he Gather Power?

Efreeti wrote:
Josh-o-Lantern wrote:
Am I missing some crucial element (pun intended) or does the defensive wild talent for wood, Flesh of Wood, REALLY suck? I mean, all the other defenses scale to some degree before having to spend burn to increase it yet the bonus to Natural Armor stays at +1 unless you pay... What is so great about NA that it doesn't scale?

As Mark said somewhere else: that it adds up.

Water's defensive talent (the most directly comparable, since they both add to AC) competes with a magical armour/shield, so it needs to scale to stay relevant. Flesh of wood adds to your magican armour and shield.

Fire's defense scales becasue so do enemy hit points.
Air's does because so does enemies' chance to hit.
Earth's does because so does enemies' attack damage.

So, just because all four original element's defenses scale does not mean it's the default. It's a case-by-case consideration based on game balance.

I think that's an unfair comparison, cause Flesh of Wood competes with the amulet of natural armor in terms of bonus type, but to stay competitive FoW needs to be feeded with burn intensively, otherwise becoming useless when leveling.

Shroud of Water on the other part competes with armors and bracers of armor, but without investing a single point of burn SoW reaches a +8 bonus, the same value of the best of Bracers of Armor. As a shield, SoW is even better, at 20th provides the same AC of a small shield +5 or heavy shield +4, all without using a hand and zero burn (also kineticists are not proficient in using shields and need both hands free to Gather).

Here's my submission too!
Basically an Elemental Ascetic Pyrokineticist using fists (insipired by this), because I really love unarmed fight and fire too, so why not?

Here's the build of

Pugno D. Brace:

kineticist elemental ascetic
primary element Fire

human (no feat, +2 DEX & WIS)
Traits fate's favored, firebrand

1 weapon finesse
5 snapping turtle style
9 pummeling style
13 combat style master
17 pummeling charge
VMC monk (KI pool 10, improved evasion, unarmed strike)

_Utility Wild Talent
1 basic pyrokinesis
2 skilled kineticist
4 fire sculptor
6 greater skilled kineticist (stealth)
8 heat adaptation
10 kinetic form
12 ride the blast
14 spark of life
16 firesight
18 smoke storm
20 reverse shift

1 draining infusion
3 burning infusion
11 flash infusion
17 unraveling infusion
19 eruption

_Expanded Element
7 flame jet*
15 greater flame jet*
air cushion
wings of air

book DEX +5 137.5
book WIS +5 137.5
belt +6 DEX&CON 90 BELT
bracers of armor +8 64 WRISTS
gamboge nodule 54
ring of protection +5 50 RING 1
pale green prism 30
flawed pale green prism 28
cloak of resistance +5 25 SHOULDER
luckstone 20
AOMF (agile, menacing) 16 NECK
monk's robe 13 BODY
ring of chameleon 12.7 RING 2
boots of speed 12 FEET
unfettered shirt 10 CHEST
pliant gloves 10 HANDS
scroll of permanency 8.625
jingasa of the fortunate soldier 5 HEAD
eyes of the eagle 2.5 EYES
scroll of greater magic fang CL 20 1.5

level 1 stats: 7 18 12 7 17 7
final stats: 7 36 18 11 30 7

activated: haste, kineticform, light, omnikinesis
internal buffer 3 points used
AC 55 10 + 13 + 15 + 5 + 1 + 8 - 2 + 3 + 2
base dex wis def has arm siz dod luck
CMD 64 10 + 15 + 13 - 2 + 15 + 5 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 2
base bab dex str wis def has siz dod luck
hit +35 15 + 5 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 13 - 2 + 1
bab weap comp exEl has dex siz mor
init +18 13 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1
dex luck comp mor tra
fort +25 12 + 5 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 4
bas res luck comp mor con
refl +35 12 + 5 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 13
bas res luck comp mor has dex
will +25 6 + 5 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 10
bas res luck comp mor wis
damage 6d8 + 13 + 5 (unarmed)
siz dex weap
HP 170 20d8 + 20 + 80 - 20
cls fav con burn
===Kinetic Fist
Note: always empowered
hit +36
dam 6d8 + 5d6 + 19
dam 6d8 + 10d6 + 19 (1 burn)
standard powerful fist (2) + kinetic fist (0) + flash infusion (4) - 6 infusion specialization
debuff powerful fist (2) + kinetic fist (0) + unraveling infusion (4) - 6 infusion specialization
form 33 10 + 9 + 13 + 1
sub 30 10 + 9 + 10 + 1
util 21+ 10 + 10 + 1 + spell level
UMD +25 20 + 3 - 2 + 2 + 1 + 1
rank cls cha luck comp mor
percep +41 20 + 3 + 10 + 2 + 5 + 1
rank cls wis luck comp mor
stealth +51 20 + 3 + 13 + 2 + 10 + 1 - 8 + 10
rank cls dex luck comp mor siz wld
Kplanes +27 20 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 1
rank cls luck comp mor

Note on Omnikinesis
This is used mainly to gain Wings of Air, which can serve better than Flame Jet.


1. Shoggoth:

Pugno D. Brace waits
shoggoth takes the only action possible: charge, but has no chances to win against CMD nor hittin Pugno D. Brace AC
Pugno D. Brace sits and waits for the soggoth, as a prepared action he moves to get enemy in reach, then fullattacks (conc to cast fire underwater always succeedes)

2. Balor:

balor gets surprise round
if balor uses dispel, but less than half of Pugno D. Brace are dispelled. Kinetic form can be reactivated on next turn at will
if balor summons, it takes too much long
if balor tries telekinesis or any spell, Pugno D. Brace can easily succed at any ST
if balor attacks, it needs a critical to hit Pugno D. Brace, that, even with vorpal sword, can be negated once a day by jingasa

3. Pit Fiend:

Pugno D. Brace wins initiative
charge, 8 attackshits, total damage 368, RD applies once, on its turn the pitfiend regenerates and wakes up. Anew pitfiend shows up (it was created with devil shaping during downtime), Pugno D. Brace activates his ring
PF1 is badly injured, it could be killed by the PF2 betraying him
PF1 is in Pugno D. Brace's reach, so getting an AoO will drop him down, its strategy can be defensive
most of the spells are not worth casting, because of Pugno D. Brace ST. Poison and fever of the bite are better choice, but precision is not high enough to hit Pugno D. Brace AC.
One PitFiend could casts dispel magic greater, but its CL 18 is unlikely to penetrate the DC of 31 (32 for fire effects) of Pugno D. Brace.
Wish is the most desireable action here:
to lower Pugno D. Brace ST and cast hold monster, then the PF2 CdG him. But Pugno D. Brace frees him on his turn

All in all, it drives toward Pugno D. Brace's favor

4. Tarn Linnorm:

linnorm gets surprise round
if charges with bite & PA, hits 42 damage
if charges with tail, it could grab him and Pugno D. Brace would be impossibilitated to use any spell-like ability. On next turn Pugno D. Braces can activate his shirt. But, attack roll to hit with its tail is too low even when charging against surpised Pugno D. Brace...
if linnorm moves and starts a grapple, it automatically succeeds and does constrict damage. On his turn Pugno D. Brace frees him with object
if linnorm uses breath weapon, Pugno D. Brace evades it easily negating damage

on his turn Pugno D. Brace, fullattacks, dodges an AoO to get in reach, and kills the beast which is unprotected against fire

5. Ancient Gold Dragon:

Pugno D. Brace starts first, sneaks to the dragon thanks to his +56 bonus, near enough for a charge (60 feet with boots of speed activated plus his reach, 15 feet, still outside dragon's blindsense). He activates Reverse Shift to become invisible and go near the dragon and then ceases concentration to charge with Pummeling charge.
Pugno D. Brace wins initiative and doublefullattacks the dragon, which is immune to fire but still succumbs to rough physical damage.

6. Solar:

as ancient gold dragon, but solar have higher AC, so gets hit only 5 times. Solar is low resistant to fire though. Double full-attack and solar is down

7. Tarrasque:

same tactics as solar and ancient gold dragon. Tarrasque has chances to survive, but on his turn he can only:
fullattack, with nearly all attacks failing to hit (Pugno D. Brace AC 55)
or swallow, doing a bit of damage, but Pugno D. Brace can flurry on his turn and kill the monster inside his belly

shroudb wrote:
45ur4 wrote:

about wood defence.

take note, that amulet of natural armor, and barkskin are both enhancement bonuses to natural ac, so neither will stack with this.

so your "instead of taking burn buy amulet" comment doesnt actually apply

I know they don't stack, as I wrote just before the part you quoted. What I were trying to say, in a bad way, is "buy an amulet instead of using FoW at all".

Sure, FoW can even surpass the amulet bonus, but at the price of too many HPs, so in most cases is not worth the effort.

Azten wrote:
This is great. The only think I don't agree on is mixing jagged flesh, thorn flesh, and searing flesh together. That's 2d6+4 20 2d6+22 if you get hit, and only at level 15, if you spend talents to get the defenses and feats to get the extra talents(jagged/thron). But if you don't get hit my non-reach melee, you just screwed yourself.


I don't like Thorn Flesh/Jagged Flesh at all, I've suggested the retaliation build because I saw it in play and it was quite effective against monsters (DR from earth was mitigating all damage the character was taking, while inflicting a good amount of damage).
But you are right, is not a worthwhile investment both in terms of wild talents and burn to be taken.

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I hope that the following information can be useful: I've exhamined and rated every elemental defense, including the two new for Void and Wood, considering every defense both with and without burn points and taking in consideration wild talents that have each elemental defense as a prerequisite, in an attempt to find out what is the best defense.

Totals are expressed in a range from 1 to 10, which is the average value based on the following three criteria:
no burn, is the defense as it is with no burn point allocated;
with burn, a rating that considers the bonus gained for each point of burn invested and how much is useful the defense at capped values;
burn burst, this rating is for the "burst" a kineticist gets for the round when using a wild talent of the same element.

Each of these paramethers are ranked with stars(*), from 1 to 5.

Enveloping Winds (Air) Total 6/10:

no burn ** bonus is too small and situational.
with burn *** can shut down archers and the like. What is good here, is the max cap (75%), which is very high making a kineticist virtually immune to ranged physical attacks
burn burst *** great bonus, can even deflect other kinetic blasts. GMs might be tempted to metagame and stop focusing on you while it lasts which can be good for you or bad for your teammates

Wild talents with Enveloping Winds as a prerequisite
Aerial Evasion ***** evasion paired with kineticist' excellent reflexes means immunity to AoE
Engulfing Winds ** losing the defense bonus for a wind wall is not a good trade, unless when encountering a large number of archers or the like (which doesn't happen often). It is Burn free though

Other considerations
Enveloping Winds is very helpful for melee kineticist, but in any other cases most of the kineticists won't find useful to invest Burn in it.

Flesh Of Stone (Earth) Total 6/10:

no burn ***** DR that scales with level is always good, also enemies with adamantine or +5 weapons are very rare
bonus per burn ** as a single defense it may be good, but too much HP are lost in effort to resist more only against physical attacks. Good news, it also useful against other physical-attacking kineticists
burn burst *** DR against all but adamantine is already enough most of the times

Wild talents with Flesh of Stone as a prerequisite
Jagged Flesh ** very effective in those encounters with multiple-attacking monsters with no DR, but not always worth the point of burn it costs

Other considerations
damage reduction is a good way to mitigate the loss of HP by burn, but remember that your kineticist may be damaged by energy attacks also, so beware putting too much burn in this defense especially late in high level games. The best thing about FoS is that is great on its own without burn.

Force Ward (Aether) Total 6.8/10:

no burn ***** temp HP that regenerates in minutes? Yes please. An ability that prevents triggering secondary effects which don't go over those hp? Awesome!!!
bonus per burn **** investing two points in it means no HP loss, with a small HP pool that heals over time and elemental overflow bonuses without hindrances! This is the most suited defense to invest burn in the morning up to elemental overflow desired bonus
burn burst **** temp HP immediately heals a bit

Wild talents with Force Ward as a prerequisite
Force Barrier ** area is not great along with the short duration renders it difficult to use. In most situations your kineticist won't be using it
Telekinetic Globe ** telekinetic sphere is a good spell, but: first, to avoid concentrating every turn a burn is required. Second, Force barrier wild talent is a prerequisite. Third, telekinetic hand can lift more.

Other considerations
Note that there is not hard cap for burning. Gaining temp HP from it for each burn, translates in pumping this defense with Burn, up to elemental overflow max bonus (plus one, Force Ward do it better with an even number of burn points)

Searing Flesh (Fire) Total 5.6/10:

no burn * damage is too low, cannot bypass even Fire Resistance 5. Incinerate arrows only after they have hit
bonus per burn *** increased damage per burn, up to 7 times, which translates to double kineticist level of fire damage. This makes monsters to die while attacking and weapons to break down. The price to be paid is high though
burn burst **** damage is increased again. This serves perfectly as a deterrent for monsters that wants to attack you in melee

Wild talents with Searing Flesh as a prerequisite
Flame Shield *** extra damage which applies to all non-reach melee attack and damage halved by cold-based attacks along with evasion for those attacks is sweet.
Heat Wave *** this is the best defense the fire element has to offer, along with some debuffing. This has unlimited duration, but a kineticist using this must remember to switch it off after every encounter to avoid hindering your party with heat

Other considerations
fire is not a natural defensive element for the kineticist. It is easy though for GMs to metagame monster combat, knowing how much damage is done with searing flesh, which can be good or bad thing so be prepared to talk about it. Fire also is the only element at the moment that has a wild talent usable as an Immediate Action and costing burn, comboing well with searing flesh burst.

Shroud of Water (Water) Total 6.4/10:

no burn **** saves money and equipment slots. Any kineticist will always benefit from the shield bonus. However, it's replaceable by equipment at higher levels and kineticist are not really gold-starving
bonus per burn *** even more AC! the really good thing about it, is that a kineticist may interchange from armor to shield and benefit from burn point in excess. Beware, to keep on pair with magical equipment bonuses burn must used
burn burst * having both armor and shield bonus are not needed, the equipment should be doing this, and your kineticist' AC should not rely on taking burn every round of combat

Wild talents with Shroud of Water as a prerequisite
Cold Snap *** a good debuffer with solid area and unlimited duration. As with Heat Wave, remember to switch it off, and stay away from your party members
Shimmering Mirage ***** concealment bonus is low and does not scale, but it is always on. Concealment can be used also for Stealth skill

Other considerations
This defense can save your kineticist money from bracers of armors, ring of force shield or simply magic armors and shields. The armor or shield bonus is higher than the magical equipment counterpart when investing burn, but losing HP for some more AC may not be the right investment. The real winner here is Shimmering image

Emptiness (Void) Total 5/10:

no burn * bonuses are low and too circumstancial, but negative energy resistance is rare to find and the bonus to will saves helps kineticists a bit. Bonuses does not scale
bonus per burn ** the good thing is that there is no cap for burn
burn burst *** bonus to will saves against all mind effects is really good

Wild talents with Emptiness as a prerequisite
No Breath **** always in effect and does not cost a single point of burn! Your kineticist is now immune to any suffocation effect and cloud or inhaled smoke effects and survive in outer space.

Other considerations
Emptiness bonuses are too small and in most cases unnecessary. No Breath is the gold nugget, proving to be powerful and fun both in and out of combat.

Flesh Of Wood (Wood) Total 4.5/10:

no burn ** having higher AC is always a good thing. This defense begins with a good bonus, but does not scale with kineticist level, forcing burn usage on higher levels. Good news are it is an enhancement bonus, stacking with any existing racial natural armor and rasing AC even more at lower levels
bonus per burn ** the only way to increase that enhancement bonus is taking burn. Question is: is worth losing HP per level for each burn to increase by 1 the natural armor, which could be instead by increased with an amulet of natural armor? Unarmed kineticists will love this defense
burn burst *** burst is OK, but situational

Wild talents with Flesh of Wood as a prerequisite
Thorn Flesh ** very effective in those encounters with multiple-attacking monsters with no DR, but most of the time not worth the point of burn it costs

Other considerations
thorn flesh with jagged flesh and searing flesh can make up for a good retalation-build. Also for 1 to 4 burns, this defense saves your kineticist from buying the Amulet of natural armor

I take this opportunity to say thanks to everyone for their participation in this thread and support, first of all to N.Jolly for the efforts made so far and the great guide made.

I have hit the FAQ button, mainly for the damage part of FoB. Can we please have a clarification on that? It can be read in both ways: Adding only 1d6 for each attack after the first to the same target OR dealing damage as a 1st level blast for each blast hitting the same target plus 1d6 for each extra attack that hits the same target.
Also, bonus points for answering if FoB can be used with any metakinesis feat

VampByDay wrote:

4)The Draining infusion is not called out as something the ascetic kineticist cannot take, but the wild talent's 'related blasts' are "Any Simple." Since I can't do the normal simple blasts of a normal kineticist, can I not make use of it? This is strange because all of the 'simple blasts' only target one creature (as far as I know) but the text reads: if AT LEAST ONE CREATURE fails its saving throw against your draining infusion . . ." implying that it can be used with blasts that are not 'simple.'

I'm adding a question to the draining infusion + kinetic fist combo: do the attacks overcome spell resistance? The two infusions conflicts on this, so which one supersedes the other?

One Confused Kineticist? wrote:

Then I'm missing something.

Occult Adventures wrote:


Instead of a single kinetic blast, you shoot two kinetic blasts at
targets within 120 feet that each deal damage as if your kineticist
level were 1st (effects or abilities that increase your kinetic blast’s
damage don’t apply). At 10th level, you can shoot three blasts
with flurry of blasts; this increases to four blasts at 16th level and
to five blasts at 20th level. If you are under the effect of haste
or similar magic that increases your number of attacks in a full-attack
action, the number of kinetic blasts in your flurry of blasts
increases by 1.
No two targets can be more than 30 feet apart. You must assign
the targets of all your blasts before rolling any of the attacks. Any
blast beyond the first that hits the same target adds 1d6 points of
damage; bonuses and penalties to damage don’t apply. If you are
using a substance infusion that requires a saving throw, a target
attempts its save only once (even if it was hit multiple times),
but it takes a penalty on the save equal to the number of times
it was hit beyond the first. If you are using a substance infusion
that requires a caster level check or combat maneuver check, you
roll the check only once against each target, but you gain a bonus
on the check equal to the number of times that target was hit
beyond the first. If you are using the pushing substance infusion,
the maximum distance of the push increases by 5 feet for each
time the target was hit beyond the first.

Given each attack is a level 1 Blast, you roll attacks separately, and consecutive hits add 1d6 to the level 1 Blast that hits a second time, damage should go:

Hit 1: 1d6+1 + Con
Hit 2: 2d6+1 + Con
Total: 3d6+1 + Con

This ability requires 2 Burn to use (1 Burn with Infusion Specialization) and at level 7 it would be better to just hit for the 4d6+4 + Con for 0 Burn, unless I include some substance infusion. Even then, I'm losing 1d6 of damage (potentially more of my 1st or 2nd attack misses) for a potential +1 to save DC or CMB. Damage would increase considerably if I somehow had access to Haste as the 3rd attack would deal 3d6+1 + Con for a total of 6d6+1 + Con, provided all the attacks actually hit. If it works the other way we have:

Hit 1: 1d6+1 + Con
Hit 2: 1d6
Total: 2d6+1 + Con

Which is semi-pitiful for the same end result. With possible Haste access, I'm left with 3d6+1 + Con which is still less than a Burn free normal blast. Again, assuming all attacks even hit. Given either of these scenarios (barring Haste from the equation) it would I appear I have stumbled into another garbage Form Infusion. At least I can deal 1d6+1 + Con to 2 separate targets. That's nifty... Oh wait, Foe Throw.

Can we have an official clarification about Flurry of Blasts damage?

The way I'm reading it seems to indicate that 1d6 is added in addition to base damage of each hit (case A written by the OP in the quoted text).
This is possibily the ranged alternate version of Kinetic Blade in terms of damage in case of A, or a not very useful in terms of cost/effect in case of B scenario.
For its 2 burn cost, it should do much more than this...

Also, about "effects or abilities that increase your Kinetic Blast's damage don't apply", what are considered effects that add damage? Elemental overflow? Metakinesis? Feats? Disintegrating infusion?

Ravingdork wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
45ur4 wrote:
A very simple house rule we use is that Gathering Power for half an hour can be used to refill Internal Buffer
He has to yell like in Dragonball Z the entire time, right? HAAAAAAAAAAAA
It's definitely gotta' be loud and flashy. Thems' tha' rules!

It is indeed!!!

@Sphynx, we usually have 4 encounters per day, using two hours per day. Utilities are still out, because Gather Power cost reduction is for blasts only

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A very simple house rule we use is that Gathering Power for half an hour can be used to refill Internal Buffer

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Actually, a section showing how much burn is expected per level could be useful.
This is a sample chart, showing expected burn per Blast. It assumes a kineticist using a single form/substance infusion of the highest level compared to his class level

I'm also taking a moment to say that I really enjoy reading this guide, being the most complete among Kineticist guides. I would like to see a section of savvy Burn usage, giving advice on when to use Burn and what wild talent type should get prioritized, possibly comparing different playstyles at different character levels.

Chess Pwn wrote:
45ur4 wrote:

I'm just pointing out that Internal Buffer can also be used to prevent burn from utility wild talents, which normally cannot benefit from Gather Power nor Infusion Specialization.

It can also be used to prevent burn from feats.

Best thing is, unless misreading, that a Kineticist can store Burn into her Internal Buffer right before going to sleep, and wake up next morning with the burn gone and the Buffer still filled in

The Internal buffer doesn't prevent the burn from anything, because you took the burn earlier to power the buffer. It only allows you to spend more burn in a round and to start the day with some extra burn available if you charged it the day before.

A kineticist can fill her Internal Buffer at the end of the adventuring day and wake up the next day with no burn damage, effectively suffering 0 burn on the most relevant part of adventuring day.

Does using a move action to move a Mobile Blast, count as "Activating a blast", and, for instance, allowing the use of Ride the Blast with each move action taken?

I'm just pointing out that Internal Buffer can also be used to prevent burn from utility wild talents, which normally cannot benefit from Gather Power nor Infusion Specialization.
It can also be used to prevent burn from feats.

Best thing is, unless misreading, that a Kineticist can store Burn into her Internal Buffer right before going to sleep, and wake up next morning with the burn gone and the Buffer still filled in

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Oracle class is powerful and fits any theme perfectly.

Cadvin wrote:
Verzen wrote:
What's the kinetic defense's (for fire) save? (DC)

Searing Flesh is considered a wild talent, so it would be 10 + effective spell level + CON. I'm not entirely certain what spell level kinetic defense is, but Expanded Defense seems to indicate that it's 4, in which case the DC is 14 + CON.

As a side note, I feel like Earth Climb needs just a little bit more. Maybe make it function like Spider Climb, or make all surfaces, no matter how smooth, have a base DC of 25/30. The mighty Geokineticist can toss boulders and see through rock, he shouldn't be thwarted by someone who decides to sand down a castle wall.

From the Occult Adventures Playtest pdf wrote:

All wild talents have a required kineticist level, and most

have an effective spell level. However, blast and defense wild
talents are always considered to be a spell of a level equal
to half the kineticist’s level
(maximum 9th level at level 18).

Yes! An Unraveling Flurry of Blue Flame Blasts!

Will FoB be changed to work with feats like improved two-weapon fighting?

Just realized today that the Cloud infusion is listed in the 16th-level Water wild talents

From OA Playtest document wrote:

Wild Talents: 1st—Icewalker, Kinetic Cover, Kinetic

Healer, Pressurized Blast Infusion, Slick; 6th—Entangling
Infusion, Impale, Torrent, Water Manipulator, Waterdancer,
Watersense; 10th—Chilling Infusion, Ice Path, Kinetic
Form, Ride the Blast, Shimmering Mirage, Spark of Life,
Spray, Waterdancer (Greater); 16th—Cloud, Kinetic Form
(Greater), Sharding

, but the only element listed in Cloud is Air

From Infusion Wild Talents wrote:

Element air;Type form infusion; Level 9; Burn 4

Prerequisites kineticist level 16th
Associated Blasts blizzard, sandstorm, steam, thunderstorm
Saving Throw none
Instead of unleashing

Maizing wrote:

I had an idea for a kineticist character that works with plants and the like (I based this on a picture I found that I plan to use to represent the character), but the closest I could find to match this concept is the earth focused kineticist.

Is there any chance of the elemental focus of kineticists being expanded?

I am Groot!

I actually played a magmakineticist using mainly grapple maneuvers combined with Searing Flesh and Kinetic Fist for extra damage. Expanded defense for having both fire and earth defenses was useful to reduce damage taken while grappling.
The real thing I liked from Searing flesh was dealing damage both to the grappled creature and to enemy's allies that wanted to help free him. Also many foes relied on their natural attacks to fullattack while they were being grappled... Fire immunity was not a concern, because I could still grapple and attack using the earth side.

Thing is, I really enjoyed playing this guy and had fun, and Searing Flesh demonstrated as an Ok class ability.
What was unfun is that fire resistance/immunity is a common one among monsters, rendering fire wild talents useless, cause they are lacking other capabilities to contribute other than damage-dealing.

mplindustries wrote:
Mikael Sebag wrote:

So, with this thread now exceeding 3,000 posts (our collective desire to see this class do well is evident), I have two important questions:

1) Is there a consensus yet about what the problem areas of the kineticist are?

2) Are we any closer to providing the designer(s) with solutions for the class's problematic elements? If so, what have we (the Paizo community) come up with?

Consensus problems:

1) Lack of skill points

2) Unquestionably needs more damage

3) More utility powers/more access to utility powers

4) Substance Infusions mostly blow

Solutions: More skill points, more damage, more/better utility powers, splitting utility and blast infusions into separate pools and providing 10 choices from each over 20 levels instead of just 10 total between them, more/better Substance infusions

Edit: forgot some minor ones:

5) We want the fantastic bonuses from kinetic form, but nobody really wants to walk around all day as an amorphous blob of element. Solution: give the bonuses of kinetic form without actually polymorphing the kineticist

6) Fire's defense is terrible and air is "just ok." Solution: make them better, especially by giving more return for Burn.

Problems about half the community seems to have while the other half does not:

1) Burn is too punitive

2) Accuracy is too low

Solutions: I have no clue because I don't have a problem with these things.

What about Vital Strike with kinetic blade and conductive weapon interaction?

Also, other minor points:

1) the wild talents' spell level equivalency causing confusion when calculating the DC of an infused kinetic blast. This also leads to low DCs for higher level play (example: burning infusion). Suggested: set the DC for all 10 +1/2 kineticist level + constituion modifier

2) level requirement for Extra Wild Talent feat (which is still unofficial) and Expanded Element, reducing the possibility to "multiclass" between elements and adding extra confusion when choosing wild talents.

3) aether composites...

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.More kinetic defenses like: Incorporeal or semiincorporeal forms (force, sand, wind, flame, water); [elemental]Skins giving elemental resistances/immunities or maybe an ability to absorb [elemental] damage and reduce the Burn currently suffering; environmental bubble to resist gravity, deepwater pressure, space void, low/high temperature

.tricomposites (no idea sorry!)

.ash themed wild talents to create ashstorms, ashcurses, blighted ash spawn or other Morrowindesque effects

.move earth and stoneshape powers and heat manipulation so I don't have to wait a turn for solarbeam to recharge

.acid attacks, because missing the green guy of "Castle Crashers" as well as other corroding effects and rust

.wild talents to create Totems made of element to gather more energy or to obstruct other kineticists energy/elemental gathering. Also the "totem" reinforces the element is made of and weakens opposing elements

.glass and crystalline spell-like abilities, maybe creating mirrors to confuse enemies (working like some illusion spells) and crystal geodes working like "totems" to increase potency of earth spells or other effects with earth descriptor

.[elemental] sustain to eat/drink your element to survive and a sort of rope trick usable

.photokinesis attacks to blind and damage undeads, fungi and oozes and also to travel fast much like Solar Oracular Mistery

.Damage Over Time effects: lava pool, shockfield or a minor polar midnight

.melee touch buffs to transfer effects like kinetic defenses or transfer Burn from others to the kineticist

.anti-radiation aura, maybe absorbing in exchange of Burn points and Radioactive skin (maybe working like abundant ammunition spell) to recharge futuristic weapons

.use fire wild talents to fuel vehicles, for crafting and forging time reductions and illumination

I liked the Burn and the Gather element/energy synergy, so we finished turning it into a separate class feature named Gather Element (Su) and we are now playtesting with these changes:


.Increased the Burn reduction Kineticst gets at 1st level when gathering elemental matter: at 7th level as a move action the Kineticist gathers element for a 2 Burn point reduction or 1 point reduction and gathering as a Swift Action.
At 11th the reduction applies also to "Other wild talents".
At 15th level as a move action the kineticist gather element for a 3 point reduction, 2 point if gathering as a swift action or 1 point if gathering as a free action. The kineticist still requires two hand free.

This substituted wild talents gained at 7th and 15th.

.Substituted Infusion Specialization with Expanded Talent, a new class features that elects to choose "utility" wild talents (those in the category named "Other Wild Talents" plus the Expanded Element wild talents). Also at 2nd level the Kineticist receives now an Expanded Talent.

.change skill points gaininig to 4 + int, spellcraft and knowledge(planes) as class skill for all

.heat blast for Fire, dealing untyped damage and hitting normal AC

.acid blast for Earth, dealing acid damage like fire blast

I actually played two of them and got better results from level 1 to 20, with issues only in the first three levels of playing:

One is XVIZVIOR, a LizardFolk pyroKineticist with natural attacks, improved unarmed strike with 2WF and using Kinetic Fist always and using Searing flesh almost to finish enemies striking at first levels, then using multiple kinetic defenses.
Damage was good and precision not an issue even at first levels, but damage taken hurted a lot until 5 when took infusion specializaztion (form) to negate kinetic fist BURN and fullattack all the way. At 7th took expanded element for Aether and then expanded defense. At 15 th expanded element with AIR to negate annoying ranged attacks. Because of the low initiative the Lizardfolk did not suffered from needing to pounce for fullattacking. At 13th he became a sort of dimensional dervisher limited times per day with a ranged kinetic blast quickened and with ride the blast, then kinetic fist to fullattack with unarmed strike and natural attacks added. The real winner was Greater kinetic form (air), for increased STR and DEX.

The other one I played was TITAN, a Human geokineticist focused on Overrun maneuver, Charge with Rhino charge to ready a charge in the most favorable moment and Spring attack while earth gliding as a backup strategy. This was more tanky, focusing only in STR and CON and investing feats in heavy armor prof (yeah stoneplate armor!). Expanded element (water) and (aether) along with expanded defense for real tankyness. Kinetic form was helping alot! The increased reach also turned in a mini-combat patrol and helped a lot while overruning. Did not use kinetic blade for this build until level 9, but a morningstar twohanded.

I prefer using STR for builds instead of DEX because STR seems to be more buffable (size increments, bloodrage spell + courageous weapon, etc).

Rerednaw wrote:
PhoenixLife wrote:

Did some more looking into the class and was drooling over Ride the Blast. I can’t help but feel like it might be a little broken. Not sure if this has been covered elsewhere in this thread, but at 40 pages and counting I can’t really read the whole thread. (Insert ‘Ain’t Nobody Got Time for That’ meme here.)

Now, Ride the Blast….

I could (at level 10) charge up to 480 feet in a straight line or snake a path of up to 120 feet without provoking any AoO from my movement and without being affected by hindered terrain. I’d then reach my target, where I’d get to ...

Ride the Blast is part of your attack action with a blast. You end up next to your target...and then next round yes you can act. But it is a nice gap closer. Especially with the right timing.

The awesomEST part comes at Kineticist level 13th, when he can throw a quickened kinetic blast (3 burn), then Ride the Blast (0 burn) and finish with a Kinetic Blade (with form specialized infusion for no burn here) fullattacking the enemy and screaming [insert YOUR technique name here]...

Limited time per day but fun as hell!
Also RtB it's not a teleportation effect (it might be a transmutation [polymorph]?) so no dimensional anchor blocking the kineticist!

Can the blast spell equivalent level be reduced when casting a kinetic blast?
For instance can an 8th level aerokineticist still cast his electric blast (equivalent of 4th level) in a spellstoring +1 spiked gauntlet?

Will be released a Revised Kineticist playtest version? 25th of November is way too close.

Also, when using metakinesis (double) on an already empowered blast, are both blasts empowered?

What if Doubling a Kinetic Blade? Can a Kineticist attack with two-weapon fighting in this case?

It seems that feats like Spell Penetration and Spell focus work with Spell-like abilities; if any, is Evocation the magic school of kinetic blasts?

Thanks XandZero2 for writing exactly what I'd have written

Also, why are you rage cycling as a bloodrager? You would have to swap out virtually all of your bloodline to get enough 1/rage rage powers to make it remotely useful (since they are markedly inferior to beast totem line/ superstition/witch hunter). You don't take advantage of your action economy saving spell autocasting by cycling.

BloodRage Cycle is useful:

bloodrage ON -> cast True Strike -> attack -> bloodrage off -> bloodrage ON -> cast true strike ETC...

The same goes for a Samsaran Bloodrager with Bladed Dash...

There are many others

Hi Paizonians,
as title says I'm here to share a different concept of prestige classes, which is in practical a new Base Class:

The Prestige Trained (name is awful)

The purpose of this class is
1) having fun and enjoy Pathfinder gaming
2) convert a prestige class into a base class, which can have its own fun and impact
3) having fun and contribute and enjoy Pathfinder gaming

Here is the class, written [irony]intentionally [/irony] in arcanic and cryptic eenglisc (seriously, sorry in advance for my illiteracy):

Prestige Trained:

Prestige Trained

LV Bab T R V Speciale
1 * * * * association,feat,basics(1°),

2 feat,extra lesson
3 extra lesson
4 basics(2°)
5 extra lesson
6 feat,basics(3°)
7 extra lesson
8 basics(4°)
9 extra lesson
10 feat,basics(5°)
11 extra lesson,prestige master
12 basics(6°)
13 extra lesson
14 feat,basics(7°)
15 extra lesson
16 basics(8°)
17 extra lesson
18 feat,basics(9°)
19 extra lesson
20 basics(10°),prestige legend

Association: beginning from the first level, the PT chooses a prestige
class, to which she will refer to from this point on. This selection
determines PT's base attack bonus, class hit die, selection of
abilities and number of ranks gained per level as well as weapon and
armor proficiencies and finally the name of the PT. If the prestige
class chosen has no ability selection, the PT treats as class abilities
all the abilities that are mentioned in the prestige class description,
along with those that are part of the requirement. Same goes for
weapon, armor and shield profiency, except that the PT is at least
competent in using the Wizard's weapon selection.

The Prestige Trained also strictly aderehes to moral codes or guild or
philosophical and ethical thoughts that are normally part of the
prestige class requirement. The same restriction applies also to
alignment, which can't be more than one step from the prestige classe
alignment requirement, and as for spellcasting the Prestige Trained is
limited in casting spells that have an alignment descriptor different
from hers, much like a Cleric or Druid. She must take whatever
religion, deity, pantheon and other phylosophies the prestige class has
and she loses her abilities much like a paladin does if he does not
respect his code. As the Paladin, an atonement spell can restore the
lost abilities.
The Prestige Trained must also respect the alignment restriction of the
base classif she obtains a class ability that's normally tied to him.
For example if she gains Rage, she must be chaotic as a Barbarian.
The Prestige Trained cannot multiclass with a prestige class, but can
start as a Prestige Trained of that prestige class, treating this as a
totally different class as much as a fighter and a rogue class are.

Bonus Feat: the PT gains a bonus feat at 1st level, which must be one
of the feats that are normally requirements entries for the prestige
class. This does give the PT the chance to ignore feats requirements.
She gains another of those feats at 2nd and every four levels
afterward. If there are no more eligible feats, the PT may choose any
feats she qualifies for.

Basics: at every level indicated on the table, beginning from 1st the
PT gains knowledge of better training. She can choose from one of the
class abilities available on the first level of the prestige class
associated, gaining that ability and using her total PT as her level
for determining all variables and numerical advancement.
She must choose a feature that does not require other class abilities
to function, neither feat requirement. If she can't select a class
feature with this method, the PT can still take an illegal feature and
start using it only as she gets all the requirements needed.
The PT uses half of her level to determine the DC of abilities based on
prestige class level. If a calculation is made using a part only of the
class level, it will use the same formula, except for prestige class
level which is substituted by PT class level.

Class features that have a numerical part, as well as sneak attack or
similar linear damage progression, can be selected once and they
continue to advance progressively. For mechanical part advancement such
as new wild shape forms or extra rage powers or the like, they must be
selected again with a new Basics instance. If a class feature has both
a numerical progression and new mechanics, the numerical part increases
regularly while new mechanics must be selected with the next Basics
selection or with Extra Lesson privilege.
If the associated prestige class has a selection of class features
which can be chosen at a regular advancement, such as bonus feat or
magus arcana, the PT can select those every time she obtains a new
Basics o Extra Lesson feature, ignoring the normal progression and
exceeding the quantity of these features the prestige class would had.
By level 4th the Pt gains a new Basics and can select from 2nd level
class features. Every two level afterwards, she gains a new Basics
feature and the level from which she can select increases by one.

Extra Lesson: at 2nd level and again at 3rd and every two levels from
this point onwards, the PT gains a new class feature taken from the
prestige class associated at level unlocked by Basics. If there are no
more class features electable, she instead gains a Bonus Feat, as
described above. This works like Basics except that the PT does not
increase the prestige class level she can choose features.

Spellcaster: the PT gains caster levels beginning from the first level
if the prestige class has a spellcasting progression, trading first
level Basics for this feature. The PT choose a basic class spellcasting
ability and copy their functioning, if the class chosen would normally
be sufficient to fulfill all the prestige class requirements by only
advancing in level.
The PT inherits the following by the class she mimics:
.magic type, arcane or divine, even alchemical formulae
.alignment spellcasting restriction, as druid or cleric
.rest time, preparation time and how regains spell slot
.new spells learning advancement, both number by level and maximum
spell level known
.caster level and spell selection

If the prestige class refers directly to a key class feature, as it can
be a Domain or Bardic Performance, the PT must choose the basic class
it pertains.

The PT loses Extra Lesson depending on spellcaster class chosen,
effectively trading them for advancing in spellcasting, as the
.spellcaster class with 4th level max spell known, loses 2nd and 12th
.spellcaster class with spells up to 6th level, loses 2nd,8th and 14th
.spellcaster class with spells up to 9th level, loses 2nd,6th,10th,14th
and 18th

If the prestige class advances in more than one spellcasting class, the
PT can gain a second spellcasting class, by forfetting her Bonus Feat.
For every Bonus Feat she trades in, the PT gains an effective level
advance in one of the spellcasting class she has. She cannot have a
spellcasting level higher than her PT level for any reason.
Every tyme she advances a level in PT, she chooses what spellcasting
level to increase.

Finally if the prestige class associated has its own spellcasting
progression and caster level abilities, the PT advances in it as
described before, except that she only gains spellcasting augments at
the 1st level and every two levels thereafter and using her total PT
level as the caster level.

Prestige Master: by level 11th, the PT becomes a master of prowess and
can start teaching her profession. She chooses a number of students
equal to her Charisma modifier. The training takes a month to be
completed with at least 8 hours of physical and mental excercise per
day, both for the master and the student. Finally, the apprendists
gains a level of PT associated in the prestige class chosen by the
master. First level npc, pc or monster with one hit die can substitute
their level for this. This ability represents the background
preparation every PT receives.

Prestige Legend: by level 20th the PT can select instead of the Basics
advancement of this level, one from the following:
.assassination, as ninja or rogue advanced talent, choosing between
Charisma or Intelligence and requiring only a standard action of study.
.weapon mastery, as fighter cap ability.
.metamagic mastery, as universalist wizards, except consuming always a
single use.
.immortality, the PT does not advance in age anymore. Should the PT
die, she reincarnates 24 hours after up to 1 mile of distance from the
point of death, with two negative levels. If she dies again before
removing them, she dies forever.
.solemn master, her prestige master class feature advance. The time to
train is reduced to 1 day of 24 hours of continuos training and
students gain immediately 5 levels of PT. Additionally, the number of
students she can train is increased by half of her level. If this class
feature would be used in actual gameplay, the PT can only have half of
his level + her Charisma modifier of students at a time, treating them
as extra Followers of the Leadership feat.

And here's a link to google documents.

The key of this class is the Association class feature, which links the Prestige Trained to the prestige class you are considering. Take these easy steps to do this:
1) keep this open or the google document
2) open the prestige class you are focusing on
3) write down a progression of feats and features you are going to take
4) create the character
5) compare it to others or try it against any challenge and post reports!

So, what to do next? Have fun trying to build various PCs or NPCs, at what level you prefer, having the Prestige Trained as one of his or her classes. I wish you enjoy this as I.


This class is bad written!
Yes it is. So don't waste time on this if you're looking for an easy-readable post.

This class is notbalanced/broken/overpowered!
Yes it is. For class balance wait for 2.0 edition or just add random 'cant exceed X', 'cant take Y' or 'giveaway Z feature' that always work well. I trust you.

This class is too way complicated!
Yes it is. Just relax and focus, I'm sure that if you want you can do it.

This is the same as X class from Y!
If it does, we had the same great idea! No one is omniscient, you will have to trust me when I'm saying that I don't spend time stealing ideas around and that's only the product of my work.

I don't get it!
Try intepreting. And ask. Maybe because of first FAQ.

I'm not taking all features the prestige class has
That's not intentional and for sure not intended, so I must work on it if you find any.

One last word
I'm not a publisher, neither a game developer, just a gamer as many. If you do like the concept and think it can have some potential, work on it and please let US know. Be critical, be pro-positive.

Post any, if you have time to. For fast and better comprension, use spoilers or bold text or italics, whatever, to distinct the build posted, the suggestions/criticism and questions.

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