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Augmented Gearsman

45ur4's page

243 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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One Confused Kineticist? wrote:

Then I'm missing something.

Occult Adventures wrote:


Instead of a single kinetic blast, you shoot two kinetic blasts at
targets within 120 feet that each deal damage as if your kineticist
level were 1st (effects or abilities that increase your kinetic blast’s
damage don’t apply). At 10th level, you can shoot three blasts
with flurry of blasts; this increases to four blasts at 16th level and
to five blasts at 20th level. If you are under the effect of haste
or similar magic that increases your number of attacks in a full-attack
action, the number of kinetic blasts in your flurry of blasts
increases by 1.
No two targets can be more than 30 feet apart. You must assign
the targets of all your blasts before rolling any of the attacks. Any
blast beyond the first that hits the same target adds 1d6 points of
damage; bonuses and penalties to damage don’t apply. If you are
using a substance infusion that requires a saving throw, a target
attempts its save only once (even if it was hit multiple times),
but it takes a penalty on the save equal to the number of times
it was hit beyond the first. If you are using a substance infusion
that requires a caster level check or combat maneuver check, you
roll the check only once against each target, but you gain a bonus
on the check equal to the number of times that target was hit
beyond the first. If you are using the pushing substance infusion,
the maximum distance of the push increases by 5 feet for each
time the target was hit beyond the first.

Given each attack is a level 1 Blast, you roll attacks separately, and consecutive hits add 1d6 to the level 1 Blast that hits a second time, damage should go:

Hit 1: 1d6+1 + Con
Hit 2: 2d6+1 + Con
Total: 3d6+1 + Con

This ability requires 2 Burn to use (1 Burn with Infusion Specialization) and at level 7 it would be better to just hit for the 4d6+4 + Con for 0 Burn, unless I include some substance infusion. Even then, I'm losing 1d6 of damage (potentially more of my 1st or 2nd attack misses) for a potential +1 to save DC or CMB. Damage would increase considerably if I somehow had access to Haste as the 3rd attack would deal 3d6+1 + Con for a total of 6d6+1 + Con, provided all the attacks actually hit. If it works the other way we have:

Hit 1: 1d6+1 + Con
Hit 2: 1d6
Total: 2d6+1 + Con

Which is semi-pitiful for the same end result. With possible Haste access, I'm left with 3d6+1 + Con which is still less than a Burn free normal blast. Again, assuming all attacks even hit. Given either of these scenarios (barring Haste from the equation) it would I appear I have stumbled into another garbage Form Infusion. At least I can deal 1d6+1 + Con to 2 separate targets. That's nifty... Oh wait, Foe Throw.

Can we have an official clarification about Flurry of Blasts damage?

The way I'm reading it seems to indicate that 1d6 is added in addition to base damage of each hit (case A written by the OP in the quoted text).
This is possibily the ranged alternate version of Kinetic Blade in terms of damage in case of A, or a not very useful in terms of cost/effect in case of B scenario.
For its 2 burn cost, it should do much more than this...

Also, about "effects or abilities that increase your Kinetic Blast's damage don't apply", what are considered effects that add damage? Elemental overflow? Metakinesis? Feats? Disintegrating infusion?

Ravingdork wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
45ur4 wrote:
A very simple house rule we use is that Gathering Power for half an hour can be used to refill Internal Buffer
He has to yell like in Dragonball Z the entire time, right? HAAAAAAAAAAAA
It's definitely gotta' be loud and flashy. Thems' tha' rules!

It is indeed!!!

@Sphynx, we usually have 4 encounters per day, using two hours per day. Utilities are still out, because Gather Power cost reduction is for blasts only

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A very simple house rule we use is that Gathering Power for half an hour can be used to refill Internal Buffer

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Actually, a section showing how much burn is expected per level could be useful.
This is a sample chart, showing expected burn per Blast. It assumes a kineticist using a single form/substance infusion of the highest level compared to his class level

I'm also taking a moment to say that I really enjoy reading this guide, being the most complete among Kineticist guides. I would like to see a section of savvy Burn usage, giving advice on when to use Burn and what wild talent type should get prioritized, possibly comparing different playstyles at different character levels.

Chess Pwn wrote:
45ur4 wrote:

I'm just pointing out that Internal Buffer can also be used to prevent burn from utility wild talents, which normally cannot benefit from Gather Power nor Infusion Specialization.

It can also be used to prevent burn from feats.

Best thing is, unless misreading, that a Kineticist can store Burn into her Internal Buffer right before going to sleep, and wake up next morning with the burn gone and the Buffer still filled in

The Internal buffer doesn't prevent the burn from anything, because you took the burn earlier to power the buffer. It only allows you to spend more burn in a round and to start the day with some extra burn available if you charged it the day before.

A kineticist can fill her Internal Buffer at the end of the adventuring day and wake up the next day with no burn damage, effectively suffering 0 burn on the most relevant part of adventuring day.

Does using a move action to move a Mobile Blast, count as "Activating a blast", and, for instance, allowing the use of Ride the Blast with each move action taken?

I'm just pointing out that Internal Buffer can also be used to prevent burn from utility wild talents, which normally cannot benefit from Gather Power nor Infusion Specialization.
It can also be used to prevent burn from feats.

Best thing is, unless misreading, that a Kineticist can store Burn into her Internal Buffer right before going to sleep, and wake up next morning with the burn gone and the Buffer still filled in

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Oracle class is powerful and fits any theme perfectly.

Cadvin wrote:
Verzen wrote:
What's the kinetic defense's (for fire) save? (DC)

Searing Flesh is considered a wild talent, so it would be 10 + effective spell level + CON. I'm not entirely certain what spell level kinetic defense is, but Expanded Defense seems to indicate that it's 4, in which case the DC is 14 + CON.

As a side note, I feel like Earth Climb needs just a little bit more. Maybe make it function like Spider Climb, or make all surfaces, no matter how smooth, have a base DC of 25/30. The mighty Geokineticist can toss boulders and see through rock, he shouldn't be thwarted by someone who decides to sand down a castle wall.

From the Occult Adventures Playtest pdf wrote:

All wild talents have a required kineticist level, and most

have an effective spell level. However, blast and defense wild
talents are always considered to be a spell of a level equal
to half the kineticist’s level
(maximum 9th level at level 18).

Yes! An Unraveling Flurry of Blue Flame Blasts!

Will FoB be changed to work with feats like improved two-weapon fighting?

Just realized today that the Cloud infusion is listed in the 16th-level Water wild talents

From OA Playtest document wrote:

Wild Talents: 1st—Icewalker, Kinetic Cover, Kinetic

Healer, Pressurized Blast Infusion, Slick; 6th—Entangling
Infusion, Impale, Torrent, Water Manipulator, Waterdancer,
Watersense; 10th—Chilling Infusion, Ice Path, Kinetic
Form, Ride the Blast, Shimmering Mirage, Spark of Life,
Spray, Waterdancer (Greater); 16th—Cloud, Kinetic Form
(Greater), Sharding

, but the only element listed in Cloud is Air

From Infusion Wild Talents wrote:

Element air;Type form infusion; Level 9; Burn 4

Prerequisites kineticist level 16th
Associated Blasts blizzard, sandstorm, steam, thunderstorm
Saving Throw none
Instead of unleashing

Maizing wrote:

I had an idea for a kineticist character that works with plants and the like (I based this on a picture I found that I plan to use to represent the character), but the closest I could find to match this concept is the earth focused kineticist.

Is there any chance of the elemental focus of kineticists being expanded?

I am Groot!

I actually played a magmakineticist using mainly grapple maneuvers combined with Searing Flesh and Kinetic Fist for extra damage. Expanded defense for having both fire and earth defenses was useful to reduce damage taken while grappling.
The real thing I liked from Searing flesh was dealing damage both to the grappled creature and to enemy's allies that wanted to help free him. Also many foes relied on their natural attacks to fullattack while they were being grappled... Fire immunity was not a concern, because I could still grapple and attack using the earth side.

Thing is, I really enjoyed playing this guy and had fun, and Searing Flesh demonstrated as an Ok class ability.
What was unfun is that fire resistance/immunity is a common one among monsters, rendering fire wild talents useless, cause they are lacking other capabilities to contribute other than damage-dealing.

mplindustries wrote:
Mikael Sebag wrote:

So, with this thread now exceeding 3,000 posts (our collective desire to see this class do well is evident), I have two important questions:

1) Is there a consensus yet about what the problem areas of the kineticist are?

2) Are we any closer to providing the designer(s) with solutions for the class's problematic elements? If so, what have we (the Paizo community) come up with?

Consensus problems:

1) Lack of skill points

2) Unquestionably needs more damage

3) More utility powers/more access to utility powers

4) Substance Infusions mostly blow

Solutions: More skill points, more damage, more/better utility powers, splitting utility and blast infusions into separate pools and providing 10 choices from each over 20 levels instead of just 10 total between them, more/better Substance infusions

Edit: forgot some minor ones:

5) We want the fantastic bonuses from kinetic form, but nobody really wants to walk around all day as an amorphous blob of element. Solution: give the bonuses of kinetic form without actually polymorphing the kineticist

6) Fire's defense is terrible and air is "just ok." Solution: make them better, especially by giving more return for Burn.

Problems about half the community seems to have while the other half does not:

1) Burn is too punitive

2) Accuracy is too low

Solutions: I have no clue because I don't have a problem with these things.

What about Vital Strike with kinetic blade and conductive weapon interaction?

Also, other minor points:

1) the wild talents' spell level equivalency causing confusion when calculating the DC of an infused kinetic blast. This also leads to low DCs for higher level play (example: burning infusion). Suggested: set the DC for all 10 +1/2 kineticist level + constituion modifier

2) level requirement for Extra Wild Talent feat (which is still unofficial) and Expanded Element, reducing the possibility to "multiclass" between elements and adding extra confusion when choosing wild talents.

3) aether composites...

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.More kinetic defenses like: Incorporeal or semiincorporeal forms (force, sand, wind, flame, water); [elemental]Skins giving elemental resistances/immunities or maybe an ability to absorb [elemental] damage and reduce the Burn currently suffering; environmental bubble to resist gravity, deepwater pressure, space void, low/high temperature

.tricomposites (no idea sorry!)

.ash themed wild talents to create ashstorms, ashcurses, blighted ash spawn or other Morrowindesque effects

.move earth and stoneshape powers and heat manipulation so I don't have to wait a turn for solarbeam to recharge

.acid attacks, because missing the green guy of "Castle Crashers" as well as other corroding effects and rust

.wild talents to create Totems made of element to gather more energy or to obstruct other kineticists energy/elemental gathering. Also the "totem" reinforces the element is made of and weakens opposing elements

.glass and crystalline spell-like abilities, maybe creating mirrors to confuse enemies (working like some illusion spells) and crystal geodes working like "totems" to increase potency of earth spells or other effects with earth descriptor

.[elemental] sustain to eat/drink your element to survive and a sort of rope trick usable

.photokinesis attacks to blind and damage undeads, fungi and oozes and also to travel fast much like Solar Oracular Mistery

.Damage Over Time effects: lava pool, shockfield or a minor polar midnight

.melee touch buffs to transfer effects like kinetic defenses or transfer Burn from others to the kineticist

.anti-radiation aura, maybe absorbing in exchange of Burn points and Radioactive skin (maybe working like abundant ammunition spell) to recharge futuristic weapons

.use fire wild talents to fuel vehicles, for crafting and forging time reductions and illumination

I liked the Burn and the Gather element/energy synergy, so we finished turning it into a separate class feature named Gather Element (Su) and we are now playtesting with these changes:


.Increased the Burn reduction Kineticst gets at 1st level when gathering elemental matter: at 7th level as a move action the Kineticist gathers element for a 2 Burn point reduction or 1 point reduction and gathering as a Swift Action.
At 11th the reduction applies also to "Other wild talents".
At 15th level as a move action the kineticist gather element for a 3 point reduction, 2 point if gathering as a swift action or 1 point if gathering as a free action. The kineticist still requires two hand free.

This substituted wild talents gained at 7th and 15th.

.Substituted Infusion Specialization with Expanded Talent, a new class features that elects to choose "utility" wild talents (those in the category named "Other Wild Talents" plus the Expanded Element wild talents). Also at 2nd level the Kineticist receives now an Expanded Talent.

.change skill points gaininig to 4 + int, spellcraft and knowledge(planes) as class skill for all

.heat blast for Fire, dealing untyped damage and hitting normal AC

.acid blast for Earth, dealing acid damage like fire blast

I actually played two of them and got better results from level 1 to 20, with issues only in the first three levels of playing:

One is XVIZVIOR, a LizardFolk pyroKineticist with natural attacks, improved unarmed strike with 2WF and using Kinetic Fist always and using Searing flesh almost to finish enemies striking at first levels, then using multiple kinetic defenses.
Damage was good and precision not an issue even at first levels, but damage taken hurted a lot until 5 when took infusion specializaztion (form) to negate kinetic fist BURN and fullattack all the way. At 7th took expanded element for Aether and then expanded defense. At 15 th expanded element with AIR to negate annoying ranged attacks. Because of the low initiative the Lizardfolk did not suffered from needing to pounce for fullattacking. At 13th he became a sort of dimensional dervisher limited times per day with a ranged kinetic blast quickened and with ride the blast, then kinetic fist to fullattack with unarmed strike and natural attacks added. The real winner was Greater kinetic form (air), for increased STR and DEX.

The other one I played was TITAN, a Human geokineticist focused on Overrun maneuver, Charge with Rhino charge to ready a charge in the most favorable moment and Spring attack while earth gliding as a backup strategy. This was more tanky, focusing only in STR and CON and investing feats in heavy armor prof (yeah stoneplate armor!). Expanded element (water) and (aether) along with expanded defense for real tankyness. Kinetic form was helping alot! The increased reach also turned in a mini-combat patrol and helped a lot while overruning. Did not use kinetic blade for this build until level 9, but a morningstar twohanded.

I prefer using STR for builds instead of DEX because STR seems to be more buffable (size increments, bloodrage spell + courageous weapon, etc).

Rerednaw wrote:
PhoenixLife wrote:

Did some more looking into the class and was drooling over Ride the Blast. I can’t help but feel like it might be a little broken. Not sure if this has been covered elsewhere in this thread, but at 40 pages and counting I can’t really read the whole thread. (Insert ‘Ain’t Nobody Got Time for That’ meme here.)

Now, Ride the Blast….

I could (at level 10) charge up to 480 feet in a straight line or snake a path of up to 120 feet without provoking any AoO from my movement and without being affected by hindered terrain. I’d then reach my target, where I’d get to ...

Ride the Blast is part of your attack action with a blast. You end up next to your target...and then next round yes you can act. But it is a nice gap closer. Especially with the right timing.

The awesomEST part comes at Kineticist level 13th, when he can throw a quickened kinetic blast (3 burn), then Ride the Blast (0 burn) and finish with a Kinetic Blade (with form specialized infusion for no burn here) fullattacking the enemy and screaming [insert YOUR technique name here]...

Limited time per day but fun as hell!
Also RtB it's not a teleportation effect (it might be a transmutation [polymorph]?) so no dimensional anchor blocking the kineticist!

Can the blast spell equivalent level be reduced when casting a kinetic blast?
For instance can an 8th level aerokineticist still cast his electric blast (equivalent of 4th level) in a spellstoring +1 spiked gauntlet?

Will be released a Revised Kineticist playtest version? 25th of November is way too close.

Also, when using metakinesis (double) on an already empowered blast, are both blasts empowered?

What if Doubling a Kinetic Blade? Can a Kineticist attack with two-weapon fighting in this case?

It seems that feats like Spell Penetration and Spell focus work with Spell-like abilities; if any, is Evocation the magic school of kinetic blasts?

Thanks XandZero2 for writing exactly what I'd have written

Also, why are you rage cycling as a bloodrager? You would have to swap out virtually all of your bloodline to get enough 1/rage rage powers to make it remotely useful (since they are markedly inferior to beast totem line/ superstition/witch hunter). You don't take advantage of your action economy saving spell autocasting by cycling.

BloodRage Cycle is useful:

bloodrage ON -> cast True Strike -> attack -> bloodrage off -> bloodrage ON -> cast true strike ETC...

The same goes for a Samsaran Bloodrager with Bladed Dash...

There are many others

Hi Paizonians,
as title says I'm here to share a different concept of prestige classes, which is in practical a new Base Class:

The Prestige Trained (name is awful)

The purpose of this class is
1) having fun and enjoy Pathfinder gaming
2) convert a prestige class into a base class, which can have its own fun and impact
3) having fun and contribute and enjoy Pathfinder gaming

Here is the class, written [irony]intentionally [/irony] in arcanic and cryptic eenglisc (seriously, sorry in advance for my illiteracy):

Prestige Trained:

Prestige Trained

LV Bab T R V Speciale
1 * * * * association,feat,basics(1°),

2 feat,extra lesson
3 extra lesson
4 basics(2°)
5 extra lesson
6 feat,basics(3°)
7 extra lesson
8 basics(4°)
9 extra lesson
10 feat,basics(5°)
11 extra lesson,prestige master
12 basics(6°)
13 extra lesson
14 feat,basics(7°)
15 extra lesson
16 basics(8°)
17 extra lesson
18 feat,basics(9°)
19 extra lesson
20 basics(10°),prestige legend

Association: beginning from the first level, the PT chooses a prestige
class, to which she will refer to from this point on. This selection
determines PT's base attack bonus, class hit die, selection of
abilities and number of ranks gained per level as well as weapon and
armor proficiencies and finally the name of the PT. If the prestige
class chosen has no ability selection, the PT treats as class abilities
all the abilities that are mentioned in the prestige class description,
along with those that are part of the requirement. Same goes for
weapon, armor and shield profiency, except that the PT is at least
competent in using the Wizard's weapon selection.

The Prestige Trained also strictly aderehes to moral codes or guild or
philosophical and ethical thoughts that are normally part of the
prestige class requirement. The same restriction applies also to
alignment, which can't be more than one step from the prestige classe
alignment requirement, and as for spellcasting the Prestige Trained is
limited in casting spells that have an alignment descriptor different
from hers, much like a Cleric or Druid. She must take whatever
religion, deity, pantheon and other phylosophies the prestige class has
and she loses her abilities much like a paladin does if he does not
respect his code. As the Paladin, an atonement spell can restore the
lost abilities.
The Prestige Trained must also respect the alignment restriction of the
base classif she obtains a class ability that's normally tied to him.
For example if she gains Rage, she must be chaotic as a Barbarian.
The Prestige Trained cannot multiclass with a prestige class, but can
start as a Prestige Trained of that prestige class, treating this as a
totally different class as much as a fighter and a rogue class are.

Bonus Feat: the PT gains a bonus feat at 1st level, which must be one
of the feats that are normally requirements entries for the prestige
class. This does give the PT the chance to ignore feats requirements.
She gains another of those feats at 2nd and every four levels
afterward. If there are no more eligible feats, the PT may choose any
feats she qualifies for.

Basics: at every level indicated on the table, beginning from 1st the
PT gains knowledge of better training. She can choose from one of the
class abilities available on the first level of the prestige class
associated, gaining that ability and using her total PT as her level
for determining all variables and numerical advancement.
She must choose a feature that does not require other class abilities
to function, neither feat requirement. If she can't select a class
feature with this method, the PT can still take an illegal feature and
start using it only as she gets all the requirements needed.
The PT uses half of her level to determine the DC of abilities based on
prestige class level. If a calculation is made using a part only of the
class level, it will use the same formula, except for prestige class
level which is substituted by PT class level.

Class features that have a numerical part, as well as sneak attack or
similar linear damage progression, can be selected once and they
continue to advance progressively. For mechanical part advancement such
as new wild shape forms or extra rage powers or the like, they must be
selected again with a new Basics instance. If a class feature has both
a numerical progression and new mechanics, the numerical part increases
regularly while new mechanics must be selected with the next Basics
selection or with Extra Lesson privilege.
If the associated prestige class has a selection of class features
which can be chosen at a regular advancement, such as bonus feat or
magus arcana, the PT can select those every time she obtains a new
Basics o Extra Lesson feature, ignoring the normal progression and
exceeding the quantity of these features the prestige class would had.
By level 4th the Pt gains a new Basics and can select from 2nd level
class features. Every two level afterwards, she gains a new Basics
feature and the level from which she can select increases by one.

Extra Lesson: at 2nd level and again at 3rd and every two levels from
this point onwards, the PT gains a new class feature taken from the
prestige class associated at level unlocked by Basics. If there are no
more class features electable, she instead gains a Bonus Feat, as
described above. This works like Basics except that the PT does not
increase the prestige class level she can choose features.

Spellcaster: the PT gains caster levels beginning from the first level
if the prestige class has a spellcasting progression, trading first
level Basics for this feature. The PT choose a basic class spellcasting
ability and copy their functioning, if the class chosen would normally
be sufficient to fulfill all the prestige class requirements by only
advancing in level.
The PT inherits the following by the class she mimics:
.magic type, arcane or divine, even alchemical formulae
.alignment spellcasting restriction, as druid or cleric
.rest time, preparation time and how regains spell slot
.new spells learning advancement, both number by level and maximum
spell level known
.caster level and spell selection

If the prestige class refers directly to a key class feature, as it can
be a Domain or Bardic Performance, the PT must choose the basic class
it pertains.

The PT loses Extra Lesson depending on spellcaster class chosen,
effectively trading them for advancing in spellcasting, as the
.spellcaster class with 4th level max spell known, loses 2nd and 12th
.spellcaster class with spells up to 6th level, loses 2nd,8th and 14th
.spellcaster class with spells up to 9th level, loses 2nd,6th,10th,14th
and 18th

If the prestige class advances in more than one spellcasting class, the
PT can gain a second spellcasting class, by forfetting her Bonus Feat.
For every Bonus Feat she trades in, the PT gains an effective level
advance in one of the spellcasting class she has. She cannot have a
spellcasting level higher than her PT level for any reason.
Every tyme she advances a level in PT, she chooses what spellcasting
level to increase.

Finally if the prestige class associated has its own spellcasting
progression and caster level abilities, the PT advances in it as
described before, except that she only gains spellcasting augments at
the 1st level and every two levels thereafter and using her total PT
level as the caster level.

Prestige Master: by level 11th, the PT becomes a master of prowess and
can start teaching her profession. She chooses a number of students
equal to her Charisma modifier. The training takes a month to be
completed with at least 8 hours of physical and mental excercise per
day, both for the master and the student. Finally, the apprendists
gains a level of PT associated in the prestige class chosen by the
master. First level npc, pc or monster with one hit die can substitute
their level for this. This ability represents the background
preparation every PT receives.

Prestige Legend: by level 20th the PT can select instead of the Basics
advancement of this level, one from the following:
.assassination, as ninja or rogue advanced talent, choosing between
Charisma or Intelligence and requiring only a standard action of study.
.weapon mastery, as fighter cap ability.
.metamagic mastery, as universalist wizards, except consuming always a
single use.
.immortality, the PT does not advance in age anymore. Should the PT
die, she reincarnates 24 hours after up to 1 mile of distance from the
point of death, with two negative levels. If she dies again before
removing them, she dies forever.
.solemn master, her prestige master class feature advance. The time to
train is reduced to 1 day of 24 hours of continuos training and
students gain immediately 5 levels of PT. Additionally, the number of
students she can train is increased by half of her level. If this class
feature would be used in actual gameplay, the PT can only have half of
his level + her Charisma modifier of students at a time, treating them
as extra Followers of the Leadership feat.

And here's a link to google documents.

The key of this class is the Association class feature, which links the Prestige Trained to the prestige class you are considering. Take these easy steps to do this:
1) keep this open or the google document
2) open the prestige class you are focusing on
3) write down a progression of feats and features you are going to take
4) create the character
5) compare it to others or try it against any challenge and post reports!

So, what to do next? Have fun trying to build various PCs or NPCs, at what level you prefer, having the Prestige Trained as one of his or her classes. I wish you enjoy this as I.


This class is bad written!
Yes it is. So don't waste time on this if you're looking for an easy-readable post.

This class is notbalanced/broken/overpowered!
Yes it is. For class balance wait for 2.0 edition or just add random 'cant exceed X', 'cant take Y' or 'giveaway Z feature' that always work well. I trust you.

This class is too way complicated!
Yes it is. Just relax and focus, I'm sure that if you want you can do it.

This is the same as X class from Y!
If it does, we had the same great idea! No one is omniscient, you will have to trust me when I'm saying that I don't spend time stealing ideas around and that's only the product of my work.

I don't get it!
Try intepreting. And ask. Maybe because of first FAQ.

I'm not taking all features the prestige class has
That's not intentional and for sure not intended, so I must work on it if you find any.

One last word
I'm not a publisher, neither a game developer, just a gamer as many. If you do like the concept and think it can have some potential, work on it and please let US know. Be critical, be pro-positive.

Post any, if you have time to. For fast and better comprension, use spoilers or bold text or italics, whatever, to distinct the build posted, the suggestions/criticism and questions.

Shatter defense sap master multiweapon pounce of the vivisectionist beastmorph.

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Pathfinder Rules You Don't Like

Creatures Size Rules. An enlarged creature doesn't even have an increased speed. Also 5ft steps are the same for every size. The bonuses and penalties...

We pretty much houserule all, for those interested:


-larger creatures than medium get Basic step (which was once upon a time the 5ft step) equal to their space (actually the shortest of the two dimensions), a +2 sq increment for every size larger than medium if the creature is enlarging or a penalty if reducing, to a minimum of 2 sq movement (10 foot)
-larger creatures have area attacks while attacking with manufactured or natural weapons (which is equal to its space)
-difference between tall and long creatures: long creatures have the Slight build special ability, while tall creatures have extra reach, increased basic step and area weapon attacks (they count as one extra size)
Many more I don't remember...

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Be a Sage Sorcerer and focus on INT, then go Arcane Trickster.

Dualcursed (wolfscarred face, deaf) samsaran (gets strong jaw) dark tapestry (or whatever gives you a huge size for most of the time) with an amulet of mighty fists with Impact property. Then take improved natural attack, improved flyby attack and vital strike line feat as feats.

Add in Aasimar with scion of humanity.

First, let me say that this guide is great, possibily the best one I've seen around cause gets updated and covers many aspects with useful informations for Oracle class players. So, great job here and keep it updated: your work is really appreciated!

Second, this guide and many hours of playing with oracle PCs made me appreciate this class a lot. The oracle class is great, very fun to play and creative. It's the only class I consider to play multiple times and without getting bored, because of the flexibility and adaptability to every concept (thanks to the curse and the mistery mechanics).

Third, I would like to contribute sharing my impressions and game experience with this fantastic class:
- oracle's armor (refered to the tipical armor the oracle can conjure that lasts [lv] hours and gives a scaling armor bonus) is always a great choice, possibily every oracle 7th level revelation (with a duration of 7 hours). Speaking by numbers, at level 7th you will have an armor with an AC of 6, no penalties neither constrictions which can be improved to 7 with a magic vestment spell (same duration!). Also, it's a very useful buff to use while sleeping. By level 20 you can reach a 12 AC bonus + 5 from magic vestment = 17 total armor bonus, not bad at all...
- aasimar, ifrit and sylph makes for great oracles because of the racial favorited class bonus. Unless I'm reading it wrong, possible great uses are: spirit of the warrior [ancestor] by level 11 will give 16 bab, so 4 attacks and a really good bonus to hit, CMD and qualify for amazing feats like dazing and stunning assault (also having a greater DC). By level 20 a 30 bab... Same, but limited, for maneuver mastery [battle]; raise of the dead [bones] will last more and will let you conjure a really strong -fast advanced- zombie (no HD cap); many forms [dark tapestry] by level 10 you will have access to greater polymorph; form of flame [flame] and water form [waves] for even more hours and polymorph by level 9 into a huge elemental form with elemental body IV; mental acuity [lore] for even extra intelligence (by level 20, a +8); bonded mount (nature) calculates your companion using your level (x1.5); spell resistance [spellscar] for quasi-immunity to spells! (level 12 -> 23, level 20 -> 35 SR). The possibilities... I'm not sure about the DC of abilities like lignification that uses level to calculate the DC. In this case the racial favored class bonus of the aasimar might increase the DC by 5...
- halfelf is possibily the best race for the oracle. With Paragon Surge spell, this class becomes the king of versatility

My girlfriend plays an aasimar Life Oracle with spells focused on siege engines and crafting construct in a steampunk campaign and firearms. A sort of Seraphim from Sacred the fallen angel game...
Life Oracle are solid healers, check out there in the guide to the oracle for more specific considerations on revelations.

Oracles. No archetypes really needed, just different curses and mysteries. I am currently playing in a group of 7 oracles: Flame, Waves, Wind, Wood, Metal, Bones and Life. We have the blaster, the tank, the sniper, the trapper, the crafter, the caster and the healer.
For a more D&D traditional group I would reccomend Battle, Life, Lore, Dark Tapestry and Nature.
Also, if you ever heard about Castle Crashers, then Flame, Waves, Wind and Stone mandatory.

Ravingdork wrote:
I would also NEVER allow it to stack with itself for extra feats and spells. One casting at a time.

Paragon Surge it's a polymorph effect so it is always one casting at a time.

Best thing to do is to use contingency with this to not lose actions or spell slots. Oracles must use paragon surge to get contingency to have paragon surge contingent on subsequent days.

Trikk wrote:
It's pretty obvious to me that you take whatever is worse when you cannot switch between modes of attack

That's exactly the kind of logic I use: you are both A and B, A says you are Ok but B means you should be restricted, so you are restricted. I admit this is more a MTG kind of logic, so maybe for Pathfinder is invalid reasoning...

Gauss wrote:

Rationale for my position on manufactured weapons:


You Gauss have always something to say, even when I stole your words! But seriously, a morning star (leaving a part the fact that can have different styles) is more efficient than an hammer underwater, thanks to spikes and rounded ball (cubic or sharpened objects offer more resistance), so it might stand between full damage and half damage (0.75?)...

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

This is a continuation of this thread. Some info about underwater combat are in the GMG while the CRB has only a short descriptive text and a table with penalties applying in water-environment combat. Apparently aquatic creatures just ignore the penalties, while land-based creatures take a -2 to hit and half damage while attacking underwater with any slashing or bludgeoning weapon.

James Jacobs stated however that manufactured weapons even wielded by aquatic creatures are meant to be penalized.
The questions are:

Are natural weapons (both of water native creatures and landbased creatures) affected by the penalties? Do aquatic creatures have penalties while attacking with manufactured weapons underwater?

Discuss and FAQ.

Also, Sanakht Inaros don't bite me for this. I understood your position :P

EDIT: actually the RAW in GMG seems to imply that aquatic creatures do not take penalties with neither natural or manufactured weapons. This part is also missing in the CRB, so the FAQ is a request for putting a text in the CRB.

This thread is a follow up of this one, but considering only this question:

Assuming that you are fighting with a morning star do you do half or all the damage while attacking underwater?

Answers so far:


Jiggy wrote:

Its damage is both piercing and bludgeoning, and is therefore bludgeoning. Thus, anything affecting bludgeoning damage will affect it.

Roac wrote:

I'm going to have to disagree with Jiggy here.

I would think that it works like DR on monsters. That is to say, if you don't have both types you can't overcome the DR (or in this case do damage). Here's a relevant quote from the Beastiary: "A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction, and a weapon must be both types to overcome this type of damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction."
Mojorat wrote:

I think for the budgeoning slashing piercing thing you need to extrapolate logic here.

The majority of bludgeoning and slashing weapons in the game either have to be swung in an arc to use them or in the case of swords have flat blades making them difficult to adjust side to side. Where as most piercing weapons are thrust.

Anyhow i think thats the intent of the rule

Gauss wrote:

My take is that manufactured weapons that have an OR should be able to do whatever is most favorable. Manufactured weapons that have an AND should be affected by what is least favorable.

For creatures the main issues are bite and claw attacks. I can see Bite ignoring the half damage penalty but claws are a questionmark in my mind. However, since both bite and claw do all 3 types at once an argument can be made for the AND statement I made in my last paragraph.

James Jacobs wrote:

That text is pretty awkwardly written, I'll agree.

My take: Creatures that have the aquatic type don't have to worry about those penalties... but ALL manufactured weapons must abide by these rules, regardless of whether or not the creature wielding them is aquatic.

Discuss here please.

Sanakht Inaros wrote:
The table itself states that these penalties are applicable to LAND- BASED CREATURES. How much more implicit do you want? Do you want a full list?

The 'Any thought?' is refered most to questions number 5 and 7 that are still without any answer...

Gauss wrote:

1) I personally disagree with rays not being subject to the underwater penalties but thats just me.

3) My take is that manufactured weapons that have an OR should be able to do whatever is most favorable. Manufactured weapons that have an AND should be affected by what is least favorable.

For creatures the main issues are bite and claw attacks. I can see Bite ignoring the half damage penalty but claws are a questionmark in my mind. However, since both bite and claw do all 3 types at once an argument can be made for the AND statement I made in my last paragraph.

5) I believe that B is correct. The rationale:
If 5A were to be used it would work like this: You are using a fire within 10feet per level as a 'crystal ball' in order to use clairvoyance. However, clairvoyance does not require this so while this could make sense it is a change.

If 5B were to be bused it would work like this: You are using clairvoyance normally and the sensor is any active fire on the other end. You can see around that fire 10feet per level. This to me makes alot more sense than 5A and is closer to how clairvoyance works.

7) By RAW at level 20 the Wood Oracle would become immune to her own polymorph effects. Bestiary p301 immunity does not offer any ways to bypass or drop immunities.

However, I would houserule that the Wood Oracle could still do so if he/she desired.

- Gauss

1) Can I ask you why you would apply these penalties to rays?

3) Interesting idea. I'm going to make a thread apart for this question...
5) That makes sense. Also, -A- has very limited range, it would be very weak comparing that with the other clairvoyance sense of Wind and Waves oracles counterparts.
7) So immunity to polymorph isn't like having an unbeatable SR?

Gauss wrote:

This is clearly a situation where the text from the GMG should be included in the CRB. Oh well.

- Gauss

Totally. And thanks to everyone for clarification of this underwater combat.

I'm dividing the 3 answers left (3,5 and 7) in 3 different threads, so we can discuss with no confusion.

EDIT: This is the thread for weapons with both type of damage

This one is for natural attacks and manufactured weapons underwater, just to request a FAQ for better rewrite.

Last Bump. Or I'll let this thread die.

I endorse Ravindork's build efficacy. I played a very similar one, but with combat patrol, greater trip and fury's fall (add twice Dex bonus for tripping with a dervish dancer build). Combat patrol helps a lot moving around when surrounded by many, add in combat reflexes and tripping maneuvers for total fun...

So having the aquatic subtype is the way to save a character from these restrictions? Seems reasonable.

Answers so far:
1) rays are not weapons so no penalty underwater.
2) aquatic (subtype) creatures are not affected by penalties for underwater combat (no RAW supporting).
3) weapons that deals both type of damage can either deal full or half the damage, take or not the penalty for attacking underwater, subject to GM fiat (no real RAW, table lacks specifics on this).
4) no deadly aim for bombs.
6) Wood and Metal are intended to be superior to weapon at-fly-summoning/creation than Ancestor.

5) and 7) still wait, here they are for quick and easy reference:

5) I'm always failing on translating the Gaze of Flames revelation. Does it means:
A. You use a source of fire that is between 10 feet per oracle level and you can see with your normal sight
B. You can use a source of fire that is in the spell's range (400 ft + 40 ft per level) and your sight through it is only 10 ft per level?

7) If you are immune to polymorph spells are you immune to your beneficial polymorph spells? Wood oracles with Tree Form won't like to reach level 20...

Any thought?

I never played a character with a Strength score lower than 12!

I found this quote from Jonathan Tweet in regard of underwater combat in 3.5.

Jonathan Tweet wrote:

If you don't have a swimming speed (or a freedom of movement effect), you suffer a -2 penalty to attacks and damage when underwater. Any slashing weapon, blunt weapon, claw attack, or tail attack also inflicts half damage. (Subtract the 2 points first, then take half of the rest and round down.)

Remember that a successful hit still inflicts at least 1 point of damage.

Even if you have a swimming speed, you inflict half damage with slashing or blunt weapons (but not claws) unless you have a freedom of movement effect.

Also here and there on page 5 seems that attacking with natural attacks doesn't get around underwater combat hindrances...

More confusion...
Hit the FAQ if you do think it's needed!

Get an improved familiar homunculus, give him a nodachi and feats like combat reflexes, outflank, improved critical, seize the moment. Then use as a fighter yourself a nodachi and those feats, then flank and fullattack. Everytime the fighter gets a critical (with 5 attacks it should happen 1-2 times) the homunculus gets two attacks of opportunity. If its crits, the fighter gets back two AoOs. This can be accomplished only with someone who has many feats like the fighter class, so it may be considered in a 'contest'.
Or you can butterfly sting yourself after a nodachi critical from the homunculus and hit hard with the fighter's tetsubo, then quickdraw the nodachi to give your familiar the same possibility to do that.
Two handed fighter (archetype) is the way to go.

Forget about number one, I got trapped in the 'X count as Y for Z'. Environment is not an effect, game speaking.

blackbloodtroll wrote:
I was thinking living, as in like a tree. Not animated. I know Eberron had Livewood.

Livewood or Liveoak?

1) I think I am confused. Weapon focus feat applies to weapons and is appliable to rays, doesn't this imply that rays are weapons? Also here's a FAQ about rays (scroll down a bit).

2) There's the table for reference. It speaks about land-based creatures and characters, so does this mean that land-based creatures are doomed to not use any slashing or bludgeoning weapon underwater barring freedom and freedom of movement?
As a side note, I read that many people sub survived a whale's tail slap because, even if the tail weighs a ton, the strike could not land effectively thanks to water environment.

3) Ugh, I was on the wave of asking and I mindlessly wrote too much. Thanks.

4) That make sense and that's what I thought until I read Ogre guide to alchemist -sorry to mention- where there was an indirect reference to Deadly Aim feat...

6) Ok, so no love for Ancestral weapon :P

5) and 7) will wait.

As for now, thank you for responding. If others have an answer, write it! Or, please, hit FAQ button.

So here they go and sorry if they are mixed and not related:

1) So ranged attacks underwater have a -2 penalty to hit for every 5 feet square they have to pass, do that penalty apply to rays?

2) Bludeoning and slashing attacks deal half their damage underwater, is this intended to apply also to natural attacks? Does this mean that a squid or a kraken are dealing only half their damage with their tentacles?

3) Assuming that you are fighting with a morning star do you do half or all the damage while attacking underwater?

4) So alchemists' bombs are thrown splash weapons and they hit touch AC, does this means that Deadly Aim feat does not apply?

5) I'm always failing on translating the Gaze of Flames revelation. Does it means:
A. You use a source of fire that is between 10 feet per oracle level and you can see with your normal sight
B. You can use a source of fire that is in the spell's range (400 ft + 40 ft per level) and your sight through it is only 10 ft per level?

6) I've read a quote from a developer saying that special abilities can be similar (and actually works the same way) or completely different. So is it intentional that the Ancestor Oracle ancestral weapon lasts only 1 minute per level while the Metal and Wood oracle can use it more times?

7) If you are immune to polymorph spells are you immune to your beneficial polymorph spells? Wood oracles with Tree Form won't like to reach level 20...

Thanks in advance

Quirky Berserker wrote:

I'd pick Qinggong if it gave me more. The spells and abilities listed are, for the most part, stuff that I think could be used for better objects or reasons to use your Ki.

If I did the Inquisition, I'd have to take a level in Inquisitor, which I refuse to do. Firstly, I don't like too much dipping. Multiclassing is fine, and when I do multiclass I like to do it on an even ratio, with the only exception of a Barbarian taking a Fighter dip. Secondly, it doesn't seem to fit her as a character.

You can take inquisitions as a Druid just have a look here!

We are using two HR that gives the players more options to increase number efficacy.
One is an increased list of spells that can be made permanent. The other is a quantity of points you gain by leveling that you can use to improve your stats or saving throws or armor class. This greatly reduced the impact of Big Six. This way players who dislike to adventure carrying a lot of objects (or even one) are still competitive with the use of magic or total self relying.

Qinggong monk for having barkskin instead of using the druid spell. Also you might like the Tactics inquisition that lets you add your wisdom bonus to your initiative and to that of your allies.

4 people marked this as a favorite.
the thread title wrote:
Highlevel wizards are balanced IF you sandbag

I just realized that the title ends with sandbag and not douchebag as I was reading. Oh well, I can throw away my well constructed post about wizards with no self awareness...

TOZ wrote:
I had a character who didn't take Power Attack until 6th level. Am I a bad person?

The Pathfinder is a system, TOZ. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Minmaxers, roleplayers, rulelawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it. Were you listening to me, TOZ, or were you looking at the woman in the red dress?

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