Hello,
I'm a bit confused about this. I'm thinking about using a Wand of Obscuring Mist to grant myself concealment and be able to hide.
Problem is according to spell's description:
"A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target)."
And Stealth says:
"Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment"
But no where it says that the opponent is flat-footed!
My question would be the following:
If I use Obs Mist on a opponent's square, and I'm more than 5tf away, is the opponent considered flat footed against me?
-if not, on the same turn I use the wand, can I use a move action to perform a Stealth check to hide from the opponent inside the same Obs Mist? I could move 10 ft from the opponent to deal a Sneak Attack damage next round
- the fact that the opponent cannot see isn't enough to be considered flat footed?
Pls disregard the cannot deal precision damage on targets with concealment, since I'll be having Shadow Strike to avoid that.
My idea is to basically hide inside the Obs Mist to deal Sneak attack damage, since it grants Concealment/Total Concealment.
My question is whether I need to roll a Stealth check or no, and whether my enemy if flat footed or no even when rolling the Stealth Check.
If I use Obs Mist on a opponent's square, and I'm more than 5tf away, is the opponent considered flat footed against me?
No. These are totally unrelated concepts.
Please note that you cannot sneak attack in an Obscuring Mist, because it is... obscuring:
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
You are looking for situations where the character loses dexterity bonus to AC. One of those is when she is flat-footed:
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation.
That is normally until her first round.
So scratch flat-footed. It is not related to your concealment. The concealment might cause your opponent to lose DEX to AC, but this does not cause flat-footedness (is that a word)?
However, the problem remains that you are also in the mist. You could use googles that grant you sight inside the mist.
You could also stand just inside the mist whilst your opponent is just outside the mist. This would give you concealment (not total), enabling you to use stealth.
|
Pls disregard the cannot deal precision damage on targets with concealment, since I'll be having Shadow Strike to avoid that.
Shadow Strike (Combat)
You accurately strike even those you cannot clearly see.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can deal precision damage, such as sneak attack damage, against targets with concealment (but not total concealment).
Maybe that way it will be noticed
- * -
You need to use a move action to hide as you don't start your round hidden and you don't automatically gain it. Even if you are totally concealed from sight the enemy can get some information about your position by the sound you make.
In every instance, flat footed normally apply only during the surprise round and the first round of combat. After that you can deny a opponent dexterity bonus to AC and sneak attack it, but it is not flat footed (barring special abilities).
Pls disregard the cannot deal precision damage on targets with concealment, since I'll be having Shadow Strike to avoid that.
Shadow Strike (Combat)
You accurately strike even those you cannot clearly see.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can deal precision damage, such as sneak attack damage, against targets with concealment (but not total concealment).
Maybe that way it will be noticed
- * -
You need to use a move action to hide as you don't start your round hidden and you don't automatically gain it. Even if you are totally concealed from sight the enemy can get some information about your position by the sound you make.
In every instance, flat footed normally apply only during the surprise round and the first round of combat. After that you can deny a opponent dexterity bonus to AC and sneak attack it, but it is not flat footed (barring special abilities).
Ok, so basically even if I cannot see the enemy and she cannot see me, we are not flat footed nor denied our DEX to AC.
So I should use a move action to hide, win the opposed check, on the same turn I cast the spell, and then on the next turn move and Sneak attack, right?
|
However, the problem remains that you are also in the mist. You could use googles that grant you sight inside the mist.
He already said he has the Shadow Strike feat so that is not an issue.
To answer the OP's question, yes, you would have to stealth inside of the mist in order to be able to sneak attack the target. However, being as how just standing 5' away provides concealment, you could just stealth in that spot. The target does get to roll perception to see you though so you won't get your sneak attack unless he/she fails that perception roll.
Letric: Yes, it works. Being stealthed will deny your target their dexterity. To be clear, you do need to actively stealth, you're not automatically stealthed just because of total concealment at 10', when you approach to 5'.
The issue is that re-writing the rules to be fully clear would take up too much space and they can't shift things around that much in the book. Read the "Stealth Playtest" discussions if you want more details. From Fall of 2011 I think.
Letric: Yes, it works. Being stealthed will deny your target their dexterity. To be clear, you do need to actively stealth, you're not automatically stealthed just because of total concealment at 10', when you approach to 5'.
The issue is that re-writing the rules to be fully clear would take up too much space and they can't shift things around that much in the book. Read the "Stealth Playtest" discussions if you want more details. From Fall of 2011 I think.
Thanks!
I'm reading this right now:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kreg?Lets-talk-about-Stealth-and-Perception
Just want everything to be clear so I don't lose time with my DM on the table. He's pretty cool on those things, but having an idea on how everything works is much better.
Gonna check for that article as well.
Pls disregard the cannot deal precision damage on targets with concealment, since I'll be having Shadow Strike to avoid that.
Shadow Strike (Combat)
You accurately strike even those you cannot clearly see.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can deal precision damage, such as sneak attack damage, against targets with concealment (but not total concealment).
Maybe that way it will be noticed
- * -
You need to use a move action to hide as you don't start your round hidden and you don't automatically gain it. Even if you are totally concealed from sight the enemy can get some information about your position by the sound you make.
In every instance, flat footed normally apply only during the surprise round and the first round of combat. After that you can deny a opponent dexterity bonus to AC and sneak attack it, but it is not flat footed (barring special abilities).Diego is correct on everything as far as I can tell, except the action it takes to stealth. In pathfinder stealth is assumed to be part of the other actions you are taking. Only one exception exists at the moment and that is when you are sniping with a ranged weapon and want to hide right after. Then it is a move action (stealth does limit the amount of movement you can do without recieving any type of penalty to the stealth check, but that is for movement and not attacking, so by raw there is no hindrance in full-round attacks and stealth).
So in short the combo of:
Shadow Strike feat
Obscuring Mist
A higher stealth than targets perceptionwill result in full-round sneak attacks, without the need for flanking.
According to the rules it's not going to be a full-round SA, but only first one. After the first attack you give away your position, and you're no longer hidden if you have more than 1 attack per turn.
In that case, it's my assumption you could use your move action to hide again, since you're inside the fog, the concealment is still there and you can attempt another stealth check.I do have another question though:
If I'm inside the fog, one square from the edge and I'm hidden (after rolling stealth-perception), can I make a ranged attack against Z? According to the spell description you can't see beyond 5 ft, but does that assume the other 5 ft are occupied by more fog? What if there's no fog like this case?
The enemy not having line of sight might protect me from some spells.
X_Y-----Z
X= me
Y= edge of fog
_=fog
-= normal space with perfect vision
Z= enemy
|
According to the rules it's not going to be a full-round SA, but only first one. After the first attack you give away your position, and you're no longer hidden if you have more than 1 attack per turn.
In that case, it's my assumption you could use your move action to hide again, since you're inside the fog, the concealment is still there and you can attempt another stealth check.
I do have another question though:If I'm inside the fog, one square from the edge and I'm hidden (after rolling stealth-perception), can I make a ranged attack against Z? According to the spell description you can't see beyond 5 ft, but does that assume the other 5 ft are occupied by more fog? What if there's no fog like this case?
The enemy not having line of sight might protect me from some spells.X_Y-----Z
X= me
Y= edge of fog
_=fog
-= normal space with perfect vision
Z= enemy
He would be considered to have total concealment from you (as you from him). You wouldn't be able to target him, but if you had a sound enough reason to do so (like you knew he was standing there before you ran into the fog) you could fire an arrow into his square and have a 50% chance of missing (before you even roll to hit). If your character could not legitimately know there was something in that hex to attack (say he was invisible, muffled, and hasn't done anything so nothing to get off of a perception check), as a GM I wouldn't even allow you to attack the square.
Read this post for a clear description of how this works.
If you can remain stealthed in the mist, you can deny their dex. If you have sneak attack, you get that bonus damage as well. If you cannot see your opponent clearly, your attack deals with miss chance, and sneak attack goes away. The Shadow Strike feat can keep sneak attack in the game, but it does not affect the miss chance.
A Heartseeker or Seeking weapon can negate miss chance, but not give sneak attack.
Combine the feat and the weapon enhancement, and you can sneak attack from concealment.
To get full round attacks denying dex, you need total concealment. The feat will not work here. If you can see but deny your opponent sight, by using Firesight and smoke, Watersight (or a Goz mask) and mist, Darkvision and Darkness, or other method, you can really crank things up.
/cevah
|
|
Pls disregard the cannot deal precision damage on targets with concealment, since I'll be having Shadow Strike to avoid that.
Shadow Strike (Combat)
You accurately strike even those you cannot clearly see.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can deal precision damage, such as sneak attack damage, against targets with concealment (but not total concealment).
Maybe that way it will be noticed
- * -
You need to use a move action to hide as you don't start your round hidden and you don't automatically gain it. Even if you are totally concealed from sight the enemy can get some information about your position by the sound you make.
In every instance, flat footed normally apply only during the surprise round and the first round of combat. After that you can deny a opponent dexterity bonus to AC and sneak attack it, but it is not flat footed (barring special abilities).Ok, so basically even if I cannot see the enemy and she cannot see me, we are not flat footed nor denied our DEX to AC.
So I should use a move action to hide, win the opposed check, on the same turn I cast the spell, and then on the next turn move and Sneak attack, right?
It is slightly different. You aren't stealthed, but your enemy don't see you. so if you can attack at range (as an example, with the aforementioned goggles) the target AC is denied and you can add your sneak attack damage. But if you move closer where you can see your enemy, if you haven't entered stealth (usually done as part of a move action) you will be immediately spotted. If you have entered stealth the enemy would make an opposed percetpion check against your stealth check result.
- * -
Remember that the fog cause hampered movement, so you can't 5' step in it and that you can't move both before and after attacking, so unless you have spring attack you can't move 5' to attack, make an attack and then move again and enter stealth.
Nor you can use a move equivalent action, as you have already used your standard and move actions.
For the record, you need concealment to make a stealth check. Your using the wand of obscuring mist grants the concealment you need for stealth. Then you roll stealth. If you succeed then your opponent cannot see you and will be denied his dex bonus if you attack.
So obscuring mist does help with that, by providing an environment where you can use your stealth skill. Of course, so do smoke pellets.
Blur is probably a better investment if you are looking for concealment but it is more expensive.
Obscuring Mist grants concealment.
Blur grants concealment.
Concealment allows stealth checks.
They work the same in allowing you to make the check.
They work differently, as Blur does not grant others concealment at the same time.
/cevah
Read this post for a clear description of how this works.
If you can remain stealthed in the mist, you can deny their dex. If you have sneak attack, you get that bonus damage as well. If you cannot see your opponent clearly, your attack deals with miss chance, and sneak attack goes away. The Shadow Strike feat can keep sneak attack in the game, but it does not affect the miss chance.
A Heartseeker or Seeking weapon can negate miss chance, but not give sneak attack.
Combine the feat and the weapon enhancement, and you can sneak attack from concealment.
To get full round attacks denying dex, you need total concealment. The feat will not work here. If you can see but deny your opponent sight, by using Firesight and smoke, Watersight (or a Goz mask) and mist, Darkvision and Darkness, or other method, you can really crank things up.
/cevah
Wow, those googles are amazing! Ill just need to make some things clear with my DM, I mean if the enemy is inside the fog he can't see me, but if I'm inside the fog, and he's not, he still can't see me, so I need to check with him if both cases work for the Sneak Attack.
And those enhancements weapon look great, I'll have to check if there are some spells that do the same, so far investing in those weapons might be better as +2 enhancement than Agile.Thanks for the info!
On the other hand Blur does grant concealment, but it's a glamer spell so enemies will get the Will save against it to deny it as far as I can tell.
Not google. Good memory. I read that thread. Shadowlord posts a lot about the issue, so his threads are good resources for info on stealth, and darkness.
I think, there was something said about being on the inside edge attacking outside would give you concealment but not your opponent. That would be a good search for rules support.
More Fun:
Check out the Sniper Goggles.
Check out the Sword of Subtlety.
Check out the Headband of Ninjitsu.
/cevah
Is Goz Mask the ONLY way to see through any mist with an item?
I wasn't able to find anything else!
My personal combo is to use Shadow Strike, a Goz Mask, a Wand of Obscuring Mist and Spring Attack. It might not be the most optimized method, but damnit, it gives my Rogue panache.
Why do you need Shadow Strike if you have Goz Mask? If you can see through the fog, concealment shouldn't apply on the enemy.
The Focusing lenses are a great option despite de -4 to Perception. Unless I need the Head Slot i'll probably go this way.
|
I've had a few GM's argue that although the Goz Mask allows me to see through the mist, it doesn't actually remove the concealment status and thus my SA won't trigger. I know, I know... I just hedged my bet and took both so they couldn't play that card on me again.
As for the mask vs the lenses, I prefer to play trapfinder/search monkey and thus wanted my perception cranked without penalty.
I've had a few GM's argue that although the Goz Mask allows me to see through the mist, it doesn't actually remove the concealment status and thus my SA won't trigger. I know, I know... I just hedged my bet and took both so they couldn't play that card on me again.
As for the mask vs the lenses, I prefer to play trapfinder/search monkey and thus wanted my perception cranked without penalty.
Seems like cheating honestly. I mean the mask doesn't say it negates concealment, but in my opinion it does since you can see perfectly, but well, opinions, who knows.
And the Shadow Strike only negates concealment and not total, so it's still a bit useful.