I have a question about first level potion avaliblity in the society. In the start guide it says any 1st level potion 50 gps or less and any oil 100gps or less. In the Dmg the enlarge person potion costs 250gp but by the item creation rules it should cost 50gp. Also personal spells target one person so in the creation rules a shield spell should be able to be made and purchaseable for 50gp, but are not in the Dmg. So if i wanted to by an enlarge person potion is it open access and cost 50gp or is it 250gps and not open access and if it is not why is the cost higher then other 1st level spells in potion form. Also are all personal spell availible in potion form or are they not and if not why?

Thank you all in advance for your input.

Todd

I have a question about first level potion avaliblity in the society. In the start guide it says any 1st level potion 50 gps or less and any oil 100gps or less. In the Dmg the enlarge person potion costs 250gp but by the item creation rules it should cost 50gp. Also personal spells target one person so in the creation rules a shield spell should be able to be made and purchaseable for 50gp, but are not in the Dmg. So if i wanted to by an enlarge person potion is it open access and cost 50gp or is it 250gps and not open access and if it is not why is the cost higher then other 1st level spells in potion form. Also are all personal spell availible in potion form or are they not and if not why?

Thank you all in advance for your input.

Todd

Hey Todd!

Enlarge Person potions costing 250 is an error in the DMG - it's a holdover from 3.0 when Enlarge Person scaled by level up to 5th, so the potions in the DMG were at 5th level (5x1x50 = 250).

Personal spells have a target of "You", instead of "one creature" and thus are not able to be made into potions. [A hotly debated point of course.]

Also personal spells target one person so in the creation rules a shield spell should be able to be made and purchaseable for 50gp, but are not in the Dmg.

Potions not listed in the DMG just 'do not exist', and thus are not available to purchase (or even brew).

So if i wanted to by an enlarge person potion is it open access and cost 50gp or is it 250gps and not open access and if it is not why is the cost higher then other 1st level spells in potion form.
Todd

Think a 50 gp enlarge person would be quite powerful in the hands of 1st level players and would unbalance encounters. The price was rised to 250gp to reflect the usefulness of this particular potion. And unfortunately you need a PFS adventure chronicle with that item listed to purchase it.

(And I don't think it is a pricing error cause there is no mention of it in the 3.5 DMG official errata, and 3.5 SRD still list it at 250gp: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35).

Thank you all in advance for your input.

Todd

Potions of Enlarge Person at 1st caster level would cost 50gp.

Potions of Personal Spells do not exist (as they are not valid potions).

-James

A potion of a 1st level spell costs 50 * caster level. Because enlarge person costs 250, it obviously has to have caster level 5.

See, no errors here with pricing.

A potion of a 1st level spell costs 50 * caster level. Because enlarge person costs 250, it obviously has to have caster level 5.

See, no errors here with pricing.

Ah of course, very wise :)

I would agree with ESSEL (potions of enlarge person costing 250gp is not a typo) but for different reasons. I have a crazy idea it had to do with enlarge person taking a full round to cast, vs. other potions on the DMG list all taking a standard action. My hare-brained theory that isn't backed-up anywhere is that the 1st lvl enlarge person spell was cast as a 5th level (quickened is lvl +4) spell to get past the one-round delay and comply with the potion rules in the DMG. 5th level spell cast at 1st level x 50GP = 250 GP. And in case you're wondering, the sky is green in my world :)

I would agree with ESSEL (potions of enlarge person costing 250gp is not a typo) but for different reasons. I have a crazy idea it had to do with enlarge person taking a full round to cast, vs. other potions on the DMG list all taking a standard action. My hare-brained theory that isn't backed-up anywhere is that the 1st lvl enlarge person spell was cast as a 5th level (quickened is lvl +4) spell to get past the one-round delay and comply with the potion rules in the DMG. 5th level spell cast at 1st level x 50GP = 250 GP. And in case you're wondering, the sky is green in my world :)

A higher caster level also increases the duration of the effect, which might be another reason to have a "minimum caster level" of 5 for the spell instead of 1.

I have a crazy idea it had to do with enlarge person taking a full round to cast, vs. other potions on the DMG list all taking a standard action.

d20srd.org states that any spell taking under a minute to cast can be made into a potion.

Doug Doug wrote:

I would agree with ESSEL (potions of enlarge person costing 250gp is not a typo) but for different reasons. I have a crazy idea it had to do with enlarge person taking a full round to cast, vs. other potions on the DMG list all taking a standard action. My hare-brained theory that isn't backed-up anywhere is that the 1st lvl enlarge person spell was cast as a 5th level (quickened is lvl +4) spell to get past the one-round delay and comply with the potion rules in the DMG. 5th level spell cast at 1st level x 50GP = 250 GP. And in case you're wondering, the sky is green in my world :)

A higher caster level also increases the duration of the effect, which might be another reason to have a "minimum caster level" of 5 for the spell instead of 1.

Yoda, I'm unclear if you were agreeing with me or offering your own take on the subject. I didn't mean to suggest a higher caster level if it came out that way. I theorized that a higher level caster could craft at a caster level below their actual, like a 10th level cleric who brews CL1 potions of cure light wounds. The quickened enlarge is a 5th level spell, but could be CL1 by design. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just find this puzzle interesting and have a pet theory. I'm eager to hear another explanation.

Well.. not to get involved in your green-sky'd world Doug Doug.. but while you can make items at lower caster level than your own, you can't make items at lower caster level than the minimum to cast the spell.

Well.. not to get involved in your green-sky'd world Doug Doug.. but while you can make items at lower caster level than your own, you can't make items at lower caster level than the minimum to cast the spell.

Good point. Damn, the sky is changing colors again.

Yoda, I'm unclear if you were agreeing with me or offering your own take on the subject. I didn't mean to suggest a higher caster level if it came out that way. I theorized that a higher level caster could craft at a caster level below their actual, like a 10th level cleric who brews CL1 potions of cure light wounds. The quickened enlarge is a 5th level spell, but could be CL1 by design. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just find this puzzle interesting and have a pet theory. I'm eager to hear another explanation.

I figured they made it more expensive becasue of the full round cast as well but I was not sure and there is no rule to state it as so. So far I have seen a lot of opinions(?sp i am terrible) and yes I know all these things are debateable. I have made my desion on how to handle such things in my home campain but the question is how to run them in the society. For instance the enlarge person potion, So far I have gotten access on two different Cronicles and both times it lists it at 250gps and one says CL1st and the other does not state the CL and by default I would say it is CL1st because it is a first level spell. If it was at a higher Caster Level then it would be stated. Second the personal effect spells target one person and that person is the caster. So I am still unclear as to if you can buy personal spells as potions in the society. I realize in your own person campains each GM has a way to deal with this but I would really like to know how it is supposed to work in the society. Also I realize this may not even be a problem after August with the new rules coming out but I would like to know how to handle this now.

I have run into another item that is giving me a little trouble with its wording as well for the society.

Again I would like to know how this works in the society.

Thanks for the help
Todd

Ring of force shield essentially grants you a +2 shield bonus to your AC as if you were wielding a heavy shield without needing to actually wield anything. It requires no hands to wield--just an open ring slot.

Potion of enlarge person, after further review, appears to be a holdover typo from 3.0. It should be a 50 gp potion at CL 1 (and is in the PRPG).

Ring of force shield essentially grants you a +2 shield bonus to your AC as if you were wielding a heavy shield without needing to actually wield anything. It requires no hands to wield--just an open ring slot.

Potion of enlarge person, after further review, appears to be a holdover typo from 3.0. It should be a 50 gp potion at CL 1 (and is in the PRPG).

Thank you Joshua. How about personal only spells such as shield, divine favor, long strider,all the detect spells,entropic shield, disguise self, expeditous retreat, Comprehend Lang., true strike, and jump?

From the DMG pg 229:

"A potion or oil ... can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute."

From the DMG pg 229:

"A potion or oil ... can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute."

My presonal favourite is Oil of Animate Dead. ;-)

(Not so useful for Pathfinder Society play, of course.)

From the DMG pg 229:

"A potion or oil ... can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute."

... Okay, though...

SRD, Feats:
Brew Potion: "Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures."

Ahhhhh, right. Oops.

In the DMG that entry is *supposed* to read:

"A potion or oil ... can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures."

In the PRPG book is says as much in both instances: under potions and again under Brew Potion.

That said, "self" isn't a target for the sake of "this spell targets X creature or creatures" so, no, you can't have potions of "self" cast. This also prevents potions of fireball, for example. (Though I think that would be HILARIOUS, frankly.)

I always thought potions of fireball would make for interesting grenadelike weapons. :)

This also prevents potions of fireball, for example. (Though I think that would be HILARIOUS, frankly.)

I think you mean Oil of Fiery Burning :) - Dragon Magazine ~67, later in Unearthed Arcana.

Ahhhhh, right. Oops.

In the DMG that entry is *supposed* to read:

"A potion or oil ... can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures."

In the PRPG book is says as much in both instances: under potions and again under Brew Potion.

That said, "self" isn't a target for the sake of "this spell targets X creature or creatures" so, no, you can't have potions of "self" cast. This also prevents potions of fireball, for example. (Though I think that would be HILARIOUS, frankly.)

Thank you again Joshua. This is what I thought but I just wanted to make sure as some have been using them and some will not use them now we have a standard for pathfinder.

Question:
The spell Shield Other is a 2nd Level (cleric) spell that targets one individual, so it should be fair game for a potion, correct? Which character drinks it?

But since Find Traps is a 2nd Level spell with a target of "You", that's not considered a viable spell for a potion, correct?

Incidentally, here's an aside from Monte Cook's 2003 review of the 3.5 Core rulebooks:

Question:

The spell Shield Other is a 2nd Level (cleric) spell that targets one individual, so it should be fair game for a potion, correct? Which character drinks it?

The drinker of a potion is treated as both the caster and the target. So he'd be shielding himself. :-)

Incidentally, here's an aside from Monte Cook's 2003 review of the 3.5 Core rulebooks:

** spoiler omitted **

See also: elixirs, which are potions-but-not-really, and which can easily be made to duplicate self-only spells if you want them to (in home games, that is, not PFS games).

It's not really a big enough deal to have been worth mentioning during the playtest, but I kinda hope that Jason decided to move all the elixirs into the potions list where they should have been all along.

RE: whaich spells can be made into potions.

While 'personal' range spells are castable on 'a creature' (ie the caster) I believe the intent was that a potion, which is brewed to affect anyone who picks it up could only be made of a spell that the caster could legally cast on someone else.

I always thought potions of fireball would make for interesting grenadelike weapons. :)

Nah, a potion of fireball would have to involve burping or farting.

I always thought potions of fireball would make for interesting grenadelike weapons. :)

Basically what you have there is a necklace of missiles. If you reflavor it to 'potions' there you go.. pricing is the same and it gives you a range that you can throw them!

-James

.

Potion of enlarge person, after further review, appears to be a holdover typo from 3.0. It should be a 50 gp potion at CL 1 (and is in the PRPG).

Hi Josh,

I still belive we have to deal here with a game balance issue, rather than a rule issue.

I think spiked chains will become very popular, cause you only need then to spend 50gp to get 20 feet reach....8)

(considering this potion becomes open access)

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

.

Potion of enlarge person, after further review, appears to be a holdover typo from 3.0. It should be a 50 gp potion at CL 1 (and is in the PRPG).

Hi Josh,

I still belive we have to deal here with a game balance issue, rather than a rule issue.

I think spiked chains will become very popular, cause you only need then to spend 50gp to get 20 feet reach....8)

(considering this potion becomes open access)

You have to spend 50 gp and 1 standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity to be able to get your 20 ft. reach for 1 minute. I'm not saying it's not a good option, but doing something more decicive on the 1st round of combat could be more useful.

In addition, that's only enough duration for 1 encounter, so to pull the trick off all the time would become a pretty steady drain of resources.

I always thought potions of fireball would make for interesting grenadelike weapons. :)

I've given out potions of Fireball in games before. I'm even nice enough to say if you die it affects anyone in the normal blast radius. Haven't had anyone use one yet.

You have to spend 50 gp and 1 standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity to be able to get your 20 ft. reach for 1 minute. I'm not saying it's not a good option, but doing something more decicive on the 1st round of combat could be more useful.

In addition, that's only enough duration for 1 encounter, so to pull the trick off all the time would become a pretty steady drain of resources.

Okay, okay, I am fine with this 'new' ruling...

At conversion I expect to sell the 250gp potion I purchased for the full price, to get 5 potions instead 8).