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Having just re-read the animate dead spell, If they wanted to create a bunch of 1HD rats, they could, but they would follow the rules for normal tiny creatures. If they want to make a swarm, use the rat swarm for stats and use the 3HD.
That would be my guess too. Since the swarm occupies space as a large creature, does it gain the bonus 2 HD? My guess is no, since its individuals are tiny, but I'd love to hear some other opinions.
What about this part of the swarm traits?
"A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells."
Would that not make it hard to cast Animate Dead on it? Either that, or you are spending the time to touch about 300 corpses, which I would states takes a while to pull off.
Would that not make it hard to cast Animate Dead on it? Either that, or you are spending the time to touch about 300 corpses, which I would states takes a while to pull off.
A swarm counts as one creature. Besides, one could just fill a barrel with dead rats and stick your hand/staff in and stir while casting the spell. Not so pleasant. Even less so when they start to move again. :)
A swarm counts as one creature. Besides, one could just fill a barrel with dead rats and stick your hand/staff in and stir while casting the spell. Not so pleasant. Even less so when they start to move again. :)
Would that not make it hard to cast Animate Dead on it? Either that, or you are spending the time to touch about 300 corpses, which I would states takes a while to pull off.
In my game I would allow it, since I do not see it as being overpowred. Now, with that said:
Per RAW, the swarm trait stops you from casting it on them.
"A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells."
Since animate dead is a spell that targets either one or more creatures (max number based off of HD cast on on level of caster), the swarm trait states that it would be immune. Now if you base it off of the fact that a swarm is no longer a swarm when dead, then you are creating x number of undead tiny rats.
I really wish that this part of the Zombie Template was a little cleaner:
"Type: The creature's type changes to undead. It retains any subtype except for alignment subtypes (such as good) and subtypes that indicate kind. It does not gain the augmented subtype. It uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here."
What subtypes indicate kind
I think that the part of the Animate Dead spell description that allows you to animate up to 2x CL in HD worth of bodies in one casting is the operative phrase. Since a swarm of rats is under the HD limit for even the lowest caster able to cast this spell, it should work. Otherwise, you'd have to animate 300 1 HD rats to create one 3 HD swarm, which seems a little off to me (and expensive!).
I would also say that just laying your hands on the pile of dead rats while casting the spell is sufficient to count as "touch" without having to poke each individual rat. Suffiently gross too.
I think that the part of the Animate Dead spell description that allows you to animate up to 2x CL in HD worth of bodies in one casting is the operative phrase.
Except that that the spell still refers to a specific number of creatures, which means the dead rat swarm is immune. If you could animate any number of creatures in an area, you could raise a rat swarm by RAW, but once it becomes "X bodies equal to Y HD", the swarm becomes immune.
And a dead rat swarm is still a swarm. It's one of those oddities of the 3.x engine.
Except that that the spell still refers to a specific number of creatures, which means the dead rat swarm is immune. If you could animate any number of creatures in an area, you could raise a rat swarm by RAW, but once it becomes "X bodies equal to Y HD", the swarm becomes immune.
The spell does not refer to X bodies though. It just says "one or more corpses touched" and "you can't create more HD of of undead than twice your caster level". A pile of dead rats certainly falls under the "or more" category. :)
That, and a swarm of creatures is a single stat block and is considered as a single creature for most purposes (initiative, saves, skill checks, CR etc...). For those two reasons, I'd rule that a rat swarm could be created using Animate Dead.
Barring that, I'd allow the creation of a magic item that bypassed the swarm rule and any mass of tiny or smaller dead creatures placed into it would be reanimated with the zombie template (or skeleton if eligable and so desired).
Except that that the spell still refers to a specific number of creatures, which means the dead rat swarm is immune.
Seems to me that it would lose the 'swarm' subtype and gain the 'pile of rat corpses' trait. The rules on whether or not one can specifically animate a 'pile of rat corpses' are less clear, but since animating a 2xCL HD 'pile of human corpses' is allowed, I'd be inclined to allow it.
"Yes, many specific things. But it is less clear on the subject of kneecaps."
By that logic, would an orc corpse lose the 'orc' subtype, or more tellingly, would a dead native outsider lose the 'native' subtype, thus defeating the purpose of having that subtype to begin with?
Seems to me that it would lose the 'swarm' subtype and gain the 'pile of rat corpses' trait.
As a DM, if there was an outsider's corpse behind, I would allow it to be animated as a zombie or skeleton - so I would also stick with the "rat zombie swarm" idea. Libris Mortis also had some interesting ideas on undead swarms (such as a "swarm" or body parts, like hands and fingers).
Xuttah's Crate of Horrors
Aura: Faint Necromancy, Faint Evil
CL: 5th
Slot: -
Weight: 30 lbs
Price: 17050 gp
Description:
This rather innocuous-looking packing crate holds a sinister secret; skittering undead doom!
Once per day on command, the crate will reanimate the bodies of several hundred tiny animals placed into it as a swarm of plague zombies of up to 5 HD. The person activating the crate counts as the creator for purposes of commanding the undead per Animate Dead.
Typically, bats and rats are used for this grisly purpose, but necromancers with a dark sense of humour often craft these items as a barrel and fill them with deceased primates.
Construction:
Craft Wondrous Item, Animate Dead, Contagion; Cost 8525 gp,
Xuttah's Crate of Horrors
Aura: Faint Necromancy, Faint Evil
CL: 5th
Slot: -
Weight: 30 lbs
Price: 17050 gpDescription:
This rather innocuous-looking packing crate holds a sinister secret; skittering undead doom!Once per day on command, the crate will reanimate the bodies of several hundred tiny animals placed into it as a swarm of plague zombies of up to 5 HD. The person activating the crate counts as the creator for purposes of commanding the undead per Animate Dead.
Typically, bats and rats are used for this grisly purpose, but necromancers with a dark sense of humour often craft these items as a barrel and fill them with deceased primates.
Construction:
Craft Wondrous Item, Animate Dead, Contagion; Cost 8525 gp,
That is deep fried awesome on a stick.
That is deep fried awesome on a stick.Glad it was good for a laugh. I think I'll include this in a game sometime. Maybe I'll try pricing it out as a single use item too...
(edit) Single use item is 1625 gp.
Then sell it to a Dwarven community and label it as Cold storage, with magic "Guaranteed to keep all meats fresh!" and wait for the fun to begin!
Then sell it to a Dwarven community and label it as Cold storage, with magic "Guaranteed to keep all meats fresh!" and wait for the fun to begin!
Oooooh! Pack it full of salt and rats and then have the magic activate only when the crate is opened! Throw in a magic aura spell to make it look like a mundane crate, and BAM! Doooooooom!
This would also work with a pickle barrel full of rats and brine. Pickled zombie rats...mmmm.
Then sell it to a Dwarven community and label it as Cold storage, with magic "Guaranteed to keep all meats fresh!" and wait for the fun to begin!Oooooh! Pack it full of salt and rats and then have the magic activate only when the crate is opened! Throw in a magic aura spell to make it look like a mundane crate, and BAM! Doooooooom!
This would also work with a pickle barrel full of rats and brine. Pickled zombie rats...mmmm.
Since Gentle Repose is a "necromancy" spell, just need to explain that the necromantic aura on the crate is a new magic spell designed to keep the rats inside "near still-kicking" with freshness..
The one step worse is to make sure that all the zombie rat swarm is a Plague Zombie rats swarm......
Okay, now how would a Plague Zombie Rat Swarm stat out? I'm lousy at this sort of thing, but my rough guess would be:
Rat Swarm
A squirming, roiling mass of undead rats draws closer, teeth flashing and claws scratching everything in its path.
Plague Zombie Rat Swarm
CR 1
XP 400
N Tiny undead(swarm)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision 60'; Perception +0
DEFENSE AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 12 (+1 Dex, +2 size)
hp 16 (3d8+3) (looses bonus from Con, but gains equal HP from Toughness)
Fort +1, Ref +2, Will +3
Defensive Abilities swarm traits, undead traits
OFFENSE Speed 15 ft., climb 15 ft., swim 15 ft.
Melee swarm (1d6 plus disease)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks disease, distraction (DC 12) (not sure if it would keep distration, but how could it not be distracting to be covered with undead rats?)
STATISTICSStr 4, Dex 13, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +2; CMB —; CMD —
Feats Improved Toughness
Skills (This part I dunno, they have movment modes defined by race, but lose skill ranks, what's the new skills?)
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Death Burst (Ex)
When a plague zombie dies, it explodes in a burst of decay. All creatures adjacent to the plague zombie are exposed to its plague as if struck by a slam attack and must make a Fortitude save or contract zombie rot. (I would apply this only when the swarm is destroyed, not when you smush a single rat)
Disease (Su)
The slam attack — as well as any other natural attacks — of a plague zombie carries the zombie rot disease.
Zombie rot: slam; save Fort DC = 10 + 1/2 the zombie's Hit Dice + the zombie's Cha modifier; onset 1d4 days; frequency 1/day; effect 1d2 Con, this damage cannot be healed while the creature is infected; cure 2 consecutive saves. Anyone who dies while infected rises as a plague zombie in 2d6 hours.
Staggered (Ex)
Zombies have poor reflexes and can only perform a single move action or standard action each round. A zombie can move up to its speed and attack in the same round as a charge action.
ECOLOGYEnvironment any
Organization any
Treasure none
These zombies carry a terrible disease that perpetuates their undead lineage—those infected by a plague zombie's contagion rise as zombies themselves when they perish.
Okay, so I did a little tweaking and think I came up with a pretty good one-shot magic item. Thoughts?
Zim's Little Sack of Horrors
Aura: Faint Necromancy, Faint Evil CL: 5th
Slot: - Price: 2000 gp Weight: 1/2 lb
Description: This large, rather innocuous-looking burlap sack (can hold about 1 cubic yard) contains a sinister surprise - skittering undead doom!
Once filled with the bodies of several hundred tiny animals (or thousands if Diminutive or smaller) and tied shut, the sack becomes a potent hazard. When opened, whether by untying the knot or simply cutting it open, the sack magically reanimates its contents as a swarm of up to 10 HD with the plague zombie template (Bestiary pg 288, use a swarm of up to 10 HD as base creature). The swarm operates as uncontrolled undead and attacks the nearest living target, seeking out new prey if none is immediately available.
Typically, bats and rats are used for this grisly purpose, but necromancers with a dark sense of humour sometimes craft these items as barrels, filling them with deceased primates.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, Animate Dead, Contagion; Cost: 1000 gp (750 gp + 250 onyx material components); DC 10 Spellcraft to create
I am thinking of running Mud Sorcerer's Tomb for my group and think adding in a nice encounter with a zombified scorpion swarm would be fun. Need to make them really nasty though.
ohhhh will be so much fun!
Necromancer's Legacy has an 'exoskeleton' template that allows one to make skeletons out of the carapaces of vermin, and, if the vermin were poisonous, they retain their venom. That might be perfect for this, if I could find the freaking book! Argh!
Damn, stupid Necromancer (wizard) being good... can not do any of these tricks....
Much like in the Dresden files, I think an argument could be made for 'animal undead are not inherently evil'...
...except that the undead template confers evil automatically.
I would love to see an undead template that didn't automatically make them evil. There are good lich templates in Forgotten Realms (if I'm remembering correctly).
I've always liked the idea of noble warriors being entombed and turned into undead who await Ragnarok (or some other world shaking catastrophe) and then move out to fight the minions of evil with a prayer on their undead lips. :)
I am thinking of running Mud Sorcerer's Tomb for my group and think adding in a nice encounter with a zombified scorpion swarm would be fun. Need to make them really nasty though.
ohhhh will be so much fun!
Necromancer's Legacy has an 'exoskeleton' template that allows one to make skeletons out of the carapaces of vermin, and, if the vermin were poisonous, they retain their venom. That might be perfect for this, if I could find the freaking book! Argh!
Thanks! Just ordered it from Amazon, about $9 with shipping. ANd yes it does sound perfect!