Most of the powers that the wizard schools provide are all based on "wizard level" (and not "caster level").

Prestige classes only provide an increase in the "effective level of spellcasting".

Given this, I believe I would be correct to interpret that no prestige class levels stack with wizard levels for determining their effects?

Most of the powers that the wizard schools provide are all based on "wizard level" (and not "caster level").

Prestige classes only provide an increase in the "effective level of spellcasting".

Given this, I believe I would be correct to interpret that no prestige class levels stack with wizard levels for determining their effects?

That is the interpretation I have, so obviously it's correct.

Most of the powers that the wizard schools provide are all based on "wizard level" (and not "caster level").

Prestige classes only provide an increase in the "effective level of spellcasting".

Given this, I believe I would be correct to interpret that no prestige class levels stack with wizard levels for determining their effects?

Right. When you become an Initiate of the Seven fold veil you are specializing in that field of study, not Illusion. You keep the powers you have, your caster level increases, and you gain new powers from your prestige class instead of your base class.

You get the increase in spell casting abilities as if you leveled in Wizard, ie. increase in spell effects and spells gained, etc. but not improvments to familiars, bonus feats etc. which are tied to the wizard class only.

But it should be noted that the special school powers are tied to 8th level, so if your specialist wizard wants to go with the old splatbook non-paizo favorite of "Master Specialist" he can still pick up a bunch of powers there.

I have a question about Wizards (or any caster really) and PrCs. This seems like a good thread to post it so here goes:

It is stated when you go into most Caster PrCs that when you gain a lvl in that class you gain spells/caster lvl as if you had gained another lvl in your caster class. Right, I got that, but what if you go back to your original casting class and take another lvl? For instance:

A lvl 7 wizard decides to take his next lvl in a PrC (any casting PrC will do).

The Wizard takes his next 3 lvls in Lore Master and so now he is a Wiz 7 / Lore Master 3 with a total caster level of 10 and total spells as if he were a 10th lvl Wizard.

But let's say he wants to take his 11th lvl in Wizard again and get that 8th lvl school power. His total caster lvl will go up to 11. But will he gain additional spells per day and spells known as an 11th lvl Wizard, or will he gain them as an 8th lvl Wizard?

I guess what I am asking is after you leave your wizard path is it a seamless transition to come back or does it screw up your spell progression?

The logical answer is that it is a seamless re-transition and he would gain spells known and spells per day as an 11th lvl Wizard but I have not seen rules to explicitly state that and was wondering if there even were any specific rules.

I have a question about Wizards (or any caster really) and PrCs. This seems like a good thread to post it so here goes:

It is stated when you go into most Caster PrCs that when you gain a lvl in that class you gain spells/caster lvl as if you had gained another lvl in your caster class. Right, I got that, but what if you go back to your original casting class and take another lvl? For instance:

A lvl 7 wizard decides to take his next lvl in a PrC (any casting PrC will do).

The Wizard takes his next 3 lvls in Lore Master and so now he is a Wiz 7 / Lore Master 3 with a total caster level of 10 and total spells as if he were a 10th lvl Wizard.

But let's say he wants to take his 11th lvl in Wizard again and get that 8th lvl school power. His total caster lvl will go up to 11. But will he gain additional spells per day and spells known as an 11th lvl Wizard, or will he gain them as an 8th lvl Wizard?

I guess what I am asking is after you leave your wizard path is it a seamless transition to come back or does it screw up your spell progression?

The logical answer is that it is a seamless re-transition and he would gain spells known and spells per day as an 11th lvl Wizard but I have not seen rules to explicitly state that and was wondering if there even were any specific rules.

Its a bit of a mix of the two. For spellcasting, he is an 11th level caster since that has been advancing the whole time he was in the prestige. He has 6th level spells and all the effects of the spells treat him as a 11th level caster. But his other wizard abilities(bonuses for specialist, bonus feats, ect) all are at the level of an 8th level wizard. So if he's a specialist, he is just now getting his 8th level specialist bonus power.

Spellcasting is generally "seem-less" as you put it. Since the casting "counts as and stacks with" it kind of "floats on top" of any wizard levels you get regardless of when you get them.

I have a question about Wizards (or any caster really) and PrCs. This seems like a good thread to post it so here goes:

It is stated when you go into most Caster PrCs that when you gain a lvl in that class you gain spells/caster lvl as if you had gained another lvl in your caster class. Right, I got that, but what if you go back to your original casting class and take another lvl? For instance:

A lvl 7 wizard decides to take his next lvl in a PrC (any casting PrC will do).

The Wizard takes his next 3 lvls in Lore Master and so now he is a Wiz 7 / Lore Master 3 with a total caster level of 10 and total spells as if he were a 10th lvl Wizard.

But let's say he wants to take his 11th lvl in Wizard again and get that 8th lvl school power. His total caster lvl will go up to 11. But will he gain additional spells per day and spells known as an 11th lvl Wizard, or will he gain them as an 8th lvl Wizard?

I guess what I am asking is after you leave your wizard path is it a seamless transition to come back or does it screw up your spell progression?

The logical answer is that it is a seamless re-transition and he would gain spells known and spells per day as an 11th lvl Wizard but I have not seen rules to explicitly state that and was wondering if there even were any specific rules.

Wizard 7/Loremaster 3/Wizard 1 = caster level 11. You don't have a loremaster casting level. Loremaster increases your effective wizard caster level.

Yeah I think this answers my question. Thanks all.

I wasn't so much asking about caster lvl. I know it all stacks and his caster lvl would be 11 regardless.

The question was more about what lvl would his new spells known / spells per day be at?

Because if he has effectively already got spells known and spells per day as a 10th lvl Wizard then when you go back and actually take your 11th lvl to become an 8th lvl Wizard, will you get new spells per day and spells known to add to your spell book as an 8th lvl Wizard all over again (which I think would be ridiculous), or would you get them as an 11th lvl Wizard (which I think is how it should work). The logical conclusion is that he gains new spells known and new spells per day as an 11th lvl Wizard and I think that is what you guys are saying too, I just wasn't sure if the rules came out and said it.

NOTE: When I say "spells known" for the purposes of this example of a Wizard I am talking about the new spells you get to put in your book at each new lvl. You do still get new spells for your spell book each lvl don’t you? I haven’t read that part of the SRD yet.

Do you still get extra spell slots if you're a specialist wizard and branch out to a Prc and you gain a new spell level? Say you're 6th lvl specialist and you move to a Prc, do you still get the extra 4th level spell to fill with your favorite spell school? Can't find it anywhere in the rulebook.

And furthermore, do you still need to pick 1 of your level up spells from that school?

And further furthermore, can you use only 1 slot for a 4th level spell from your banned schools? You're a specialist up to 3rd level spells after all...

take your 11th lvl to become an 8th lvl Wizard, will you get new spells per day and spells known to add to your spell book as an 8th lvl Wizard all over again (which I think would be ridiculous), or would you get them as an 11th lvl Wizard (which I think is how it should work).

You would get them as an 11th level Wizard (6th level spells)

Do you still get extra spell slots if you're a specialist wizard and branch out to a Prc and you gain a new spell level?

You get anything a straight wizard would get in so far as spells, spell slots, etc. So yes.

There is a PrC that will advance "one" of the sorcerer bloodline abilities but none for wizards. With the Dragon Disciple PRC we have a precedent for classes that do advance these abilities but I have not seen one yet.

I would argue that the lore master PRC would have been a good choice for an exception but they did not do it.

There is a PrC that will advance "one" of the sorcerer bloodline abilities but none for wizards. With the Dragon Disciple PRC we have a precedent for classes that do advance these abilities but I have not seen one yet.

I would argue that the lore master PRC would have been a good choice for an exception but they did not do it.

The DD has been around for a while. If you want go update the Master Specialist from the Complete Mage splatbook. The basic idea has been that the prestige classes should not give everything the straight class character gets and more besides. The DD gives up three levels of spell casting (and for sorcerers 9th level spells) for what it gets in return. It is a focused prestige class on a single theme which is why it advances the bloodline. It was simply easier (and less words) to include that instead of having to type everything in again.

Yeah I think this answers my question. Thanks all.

I wasn't so much asking about caster lvl. I know it all stacks and his caster lvl would be 11 regardless.

The question was more about what lvl would his new spells known / spells per day be at?

Because if he has effectively already got spells known and spells per day as a 10th lvl Wizard then when you go back and actually take your 11th lvl to become an 8th lvl Wizard, will you get new spells per day and spells known to add to your spell book as an 8th lvl Wizard all over again (which I think would be ridiculous), or would you get them as an 11th lvl Wizard (which I think is how it should work). The logical conclusion is that he gains new spells known and new spells per day as an 11th lvl Wizard and I think that is what you guys are saying too, I just wasn't sure if the rules came out and said it.

NOTE: When I say "spells known" for the purposes of this example of a Wizard I am talking about the new spells you get to put in your book at each new lvl. You do still get new spells for your spell book each lvl don’t you? I haven’t read that part of the SRD yet.

To address your last question in italics, you do gain new spells to add to your spellbook at any level that you advance within the Wizard class. Since the description of the Wizard benefit (adding the free spells) falls under the Spellbook description and specifically states "at each new wizard level" and the various Prestige Class descriptions of "+1 Spellcasting Level" specifically designate additional spells known as being part of the feature "if the character is a spontaneous caster," Wizards who level in Prestige Classes would not seem to get to add 2 free spells to their spellbooks at PrC levelup. If the character then leveled in Wizard again (as in your example of Wizard 7/Loremaster 3 leveling in Wizard at 11th level), the character would get the 2 free spells based on his effective Wizard caster level, since the text indicates the bonus spells are of "any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new Wizard level)," but the parenthetical text is only an indication that the character level being gained should be considered when determining what spell levels the character can cast (in the example: 11th caster level, so he could get 2 "free" 6th level (or lower) spells, but would have lost out on 4 "free" 5th level (or lower) and 2 "free" 4th level (or lower) spells as a result of the 3 levels in Loremaster).

This is, of course, only my understanding and interpretation of the rules as presented.

~Doskious Steele

Wizards who level in Prestige Classes would not seem to get to add 2 free spells to their spellbooks at PrC levelup.

Actually they would and the 3.5 FAQ made it clear they would.

Think of it this way:
1) An 8th level Wizard would hjave the spells of an 8th level Wizard.
2) A 5th level Wizard with 3 levels of a PrC with +1 Wizard would have the spells of an 8th level Wizard.

Either way, they get the free 2 spells per level.

Doskious Steele wrote:

Wizards who level in Prestige Classes would not seem to get to add 2 free spells to their spellbooks at PrC levelup.

Actually they would and the 3.5 FAQ made it clear they would.

Think of it this way:
1) An 8th level Wizard would hjave the spells of an 8th level Wizard.
2) A 5th level Wizard with 3 levels of a PrC with +1 Wizard would have the spells of an 8th level Wizard.

Either way, they get the free 2 spells per level.

I confess, having looked through the default 3.5 FAQ PDF, I am having trouble finding the section that addresses this point, could you provide a quote or a link?

It's my understanding that the Wizard's free spells are a result of the Wizard studying their spellbook and craft; if the character is busy learning PrC related things, it makes sense to me that they wouldn't have as much time to study for the bonus spells. I don't deny that a Wizard 8 and a Wizard 5/Geometer 3 can cast the same spells or produce the same level-dependent effects, just that the PrC levels doesn't grant free spells to Wizards.

~Doskious Steele

I confess, having looked through the default 3.5 FAQ PDF, I am having trouble finding the section that addresses this point, could you provide a quote or a link?

The free spells are part of a Wizard's "Spells" class features and PrC classes that grant +1 level of spellcasting grant effective +1 level of Wizard for use with the Spells section (which grants the +2 spells per level.)

This is an essential tenant of 3.0/3.5 games and has been unchanged since the beginning. I've seen nothing to suggest it changed in 3.p rules.

MainFAQv06272003.pdf page 13 discusses this.

James Risner wrote:

Doskious Steele wrote:

Wizards who level in Prestige Classes would not seem to get to add 2 free spells to their spellbooks at PrC levelup.

Actually they would and the 3.5 FAQ made it clear they would.

Think of it this way:
1) An 8th level Wizard would hjave the spells of an 8th level Wizard.
2) A 5th level Wizard with 3 levels of a PrC with +1 Wizard would have the spells of an 8th level Wizard.

Either way, they get the free 2 spells per level.

I confess, having looked through the default 3.5 FAQ PDF, I am having trouble finding the section that addresses this point, could you provide a quote or a link?

It's my understanding that the Wizard's free spells are a result of the Wizard studying their spellbook and craft; if the character is busy learning PrC related things, it makes sense to me that they wouldn't have as much time to study for the bonus spells. I don't deny that a Wizard 8 and a Wizard 5/Geometer 3 can cast the same spells or produce the same level-dependent effects, just that the PrC levels doesn't grant free spells to Wizards.

~Doskious Steele

Do you play sorcerers that stop learning new spells if they PRC?

Related question:

One of my players has made a specialist wizard (Evoker) and is considering going for the Master Specialist class in a couple of levels.

I know that by the raw, he'll not get any more benefits from his school specialization while he takes levels as MS, but that is kinda counter intuitive, as he is taking a PrC that's supposed to be, well, a master specialist.

Would it be terribly unbalancing to say that MS levels also gave specialist benefits? If yes, what would make it balanced again?

Regards,
Rufus

No one?

Related question:

One of my players has made a specialist wizard (Evoker) and is considering going for the Master Specialist class in a couple of levels.

I know that by the raw, he'll not get any more benefits from his school specialization while he takes levels as MS, but that is kinda counter intuitive, as he is taking a PrC that's supposed to be, well, a master specialist.

Would it be terribly unbalancing to say that MS levels also gave specialist benefits? If yes, what would make it balanced again?

Regards,
Rufus

Personally, I don't think it would unbalance the character in the case of an evoker. Personally I think that an energy wall is kinda meh. So I'd give it to him.

Related question:

One of my players has made a specialist wizard (Evoker) and is considering going for the Master Specialist class in a couple of levels.

I know that by the raw, he'll not get any more benefits from his school specialization while he takes levels as MS, but that is kinda counter intuitive, as he is taking a PrC that's supposed to be, well, a master specialist.

Would it be terribly unbalancing to say that MS levels also gave specialist benefits? If yes, what would make it balanced again?

Regards,
Rufus

I think it would be overpowered because he's gaining two class worth of abilities. Master specialist gives you evoker bonuses and evoker gives you evoker bonuses. Usually to get two classes worth of special abilities you have to play a gestalt game.

I think it would be overpowered because he's gaining two class worth of abilities. Master specialist gives you evoker bonuses and evoker gives you evoker bonuses. Usually to get two classes worth of special abilities you have to play a gestalt game.

Hence me asking, if there was a way to make it more balanced :)

At the moment, I'm considering turning the School Esoterica powers into feats that can be taken at roughly the time you would get them from the Prestige Class (roughly 7th, 10th 13th) with some meaningful requirements and get rid of the prestige class.

grasshopper_ea wrote:

I think it would be overpowered because he's gaining two class worth of abilities. Master specialist gives you evoker bonuses and evoker gives you evoker bonuses. Usually to get two classes worth of special abilities you have to play a gestalt game.

Hence me asking, if there was a way to make it more balanced :)

At the moment, I'm considering turning the School Esoterica powers into feats that can be taken at roughly the time you would get them from the Prestige Class (roughly 7th, 10th 13th) with some meaningful requirements and get rid of the prestige class.

Making some of them homebrew feats is a good idea, since the character has to give up something to get it, i.e. a different feat.

The free spells are part of a Wizard's "Spells" class features and PrC classes that grant +1 level of spellcasting grant effective +1 level of Wizard for use with the Spells section (which grants the +2 spells per level.)

Actually, it is listed under Spellbooks, which is a separate section, although Spells mentions spellbooks. It appears ambiguous to me, although a strict reading would seem to suggest you do NOT gain the free spells. I am surprised this wasn't addressed in Pathfinder, as it has been a question in 3e for some time that keeps coming up.

I found this thread while looking for some answers on what would happen to a fighter/witch/eldritch knight, although the question applies equally to wizard. In the case of the witch, there is an added wrinkle of spells being added to the spell list, similar to the Domains issue for Clerics.

Most of the powers that the wizard schools provide are all based on "wizard level" (and not "caster level").

Prestige classes only provide an increase in the "effective level of spellcasting".

Given this, I believe I would be correct to interpret that no prestige class levels stack with wizard levels for determining their effects?

Yes. The bonus to spell casting is strictly limited to spell casting.

OTOH the Bonus Slot & restrictions are still in effect, you don't suddenly become a Specialist/Universalist Mix just because you took a PrC.

As for the 2 new spells for the book every level:

Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast. If he has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from his specialty school.

I'm inclined to say, "No free spell for you." Not as harsh as it sounds, the character is probably LV 6+ so they should have the resources to get new spells in some other way.

Bummer. Has there ever been an official word on this from Paizo?

Related question:

One of my players has made a specialist wizard (Evoker) and is considering going for the Master Specialist class in a couple of levels.

I know that by the raw, he'll not get any more benefits from his school specialization while he takes levels as MS, but that is kinda counter intuitive, as he is taking a PrC that's supposed to be, well, a master specialist.

Would it be terribly unbalancing to say that MS levels also gave specialist benefits? If yes, what would make it balanced again?

Regards,
Rufus

I think you could give the option of taking the Esoterica, OR applying the MS levels to Wiz levels for the purpose of determining the benefit of ONE specialist ability, or to acquire the specialist ability at appropriate level.

You could also modify it such that the MS provides 1/2 levels addition to Wiz for specialist abilities already gained, and spend Esoterica to unlock the later abilities.

It is a hard PrC to work into PF, due to the fact that in 3.5 it was so much superior to Wiz.